Woman's Hour - The Feminisation of Chocolate

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Inspired by her childhood in York, Emma Robertson, Senior Lecturer in History at La Trobe University, Australia explores chocolate and the history of imperial exploitation, sexism and racism in her study ‘Chocolate, Women and Empire: a Social and Cultural History’. Emma talks about the ‘ordinary’ women positioned at the two key stages of production, the cocoa farms of Nigeria and the Rowntree factory in York.Women play a critical role in the cacao industry in West Africa but patriarchal attitudes often exclude them from decision making, land ownership, and selling the crop. Dr. Nyagoy Nyong’o, Fairtrade Global CEO discusses the life of women cocoa farmers and the Women’s School of Leadership which seeks to empower women and promote gender rights.What it is like to work in a chocolate factory? Sarah Hartley talks about her job as a quality controller on the factory floor at Whitakers.Chocolate advertising has long been linked with women and sex. Dr Cathrine Jansson-Boyd, a Reader in Consumer Psychology at Anglia Ruskin University and Sue Quinn, food writer and author of 'Cocoa: an Exploration of Chocolate' discuss how chocolate advertisements target women.Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Paula McFarlane Interviewed Guest: Dr Emma Robertson Interviewed Guest: Dr. Nyagoy Nyong’o Interviewed Guest: Sarah Hartley Interviewed Guest: Dr Cathrine Jansson-Boyd Interviewed Guest: Sue Quinn

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour on Bank Holiday Monday, where, appropriately enough, we are dedicating the whole programme to chocolate. What's your relationship with chocolate? It seems most of us have one, particularly women. Why is that? Well, we're not live today, but you can still share your thoughts. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate and do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media,

it's at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. With the help of my guests, we're going to explore how chocolate came to be both a luxury and a staple in Britain and its historic links with exploitation and imperialism. We'll look at what it's like for some of the women who farm the cocoa beans that may have gone into our Easter eggs. We'll also meet women on the factory floor producing chocolate here in Britain and And of course, delve into how chocolate in all its forms is marketed to us today. Well, my first guest is Emma Robertson, who grew up in York, one of the centres of chocolate production in the UK. And she's now a senior lecturer in history at La Trobe University in Australia. And in her study, Chocolate, Women and Empire, a Social and Cultural History, she explores imperial exploitation and sexism in the production and marketing of chocolate.

She also looks at the lives of ordinary women in the cocoa farms of Nigeria and the Roundtree factory in York. Well, Emma joins us very late at night from Bendigo in Australia. A very warm welcome to you, Emma, and thank you for staying up. Emma, growing up in York, I wonder how much of an impact chocolate and indeed the Rhinetrees family still had on life in the city. Yes. So for me, I have lots of memories of that chocolate industry in the city where I grew up. And it was such a big employer of, especially women in my family, my gran, my aunties. I even found out my mum worked there briefly in the offices and I managed to find her in one of the Cocoa Works magazines

that Rountree's used to have for its employees. But just the influence of the Rountree family for me, because I went to a school named after Joseph Rowntree used to go to Rowntree Park to read the ducts I mean that influence of those Quaker industrials was really there in the city as well as that sort of more the consumption side as a kid you know having a a gran and aunties who worked at the factory and had cupboards full of waste chocolates was you know a bonus for me um and passing that chocolate factory the smell of that chocolate factory and both round trees and terry's terry's was really close to where my grand lived and round trees was on my way into town so it's just that real sense of it's almost like bookending the

city with these two two big factories um yeah so it's a real strong memory i think both that those factories and also the influence of the factories, particularly in the city. Emma, when we think of tea and sugar, of course, we often think of the kind of imperial connotations, but chocolate was very much a product of empire and colonisation. Yeah, absolutely. And that was, as I was sort of expanding my study from just looking at the women on the York shop floor, I really sort of became more aware of just how embedded the chocolate industry is in this imperial story. And that although it's become, I think, chocolate particularly became much more divorced in terms of its advertising, especially from its colonial and tropical origins, it was dependent on that. The British chocolate industry in the certainly nearly mid-20th century was dependent on raw materials coming from the British Empire, from the colonies of British West Africa, especially Nigeria and Ghana.

And that wasn't something that I'd been aware of growing up and that was something that I really wanted to look at when I was studying the industry a bit more. Initially, British manufacturers did buy from plantations in the West Indies. So were cocoa beans ever a direct product of slavery? Yeah, well, it would have been at one point. Yeah, I mean, when by the time when I was looking at that late 19th century, Cadbury's and Roundtree's wouldn't have been the slave trade at the end of them. By the time when I was looking at sort of that late 19th century,

Cadbury's and Roundtree's wouldn't have been, the slave trade had ended then, but there was still practices of indentured labourer bringing workers home from Southeast Asia especially. It's not really clear. One of the references I found in the Cocoa's magazine was that in 1908 there were no indentured labourers on their plantations at round trees in in um i think that was in jamaica um so yeah but in the past yes cocoa um had been produced under conditions of slave robe in the in the caribbean and then even in the early 20th century there was a scandal which drew in the british chocolate manufacturers they were buying cocoa on the open

market but which had been produced in Portuguese West Africa on two islands, particularly South May and Princey, where that was very much, though it was called indentured labour, it was still on intensive purposes a form of slavery. So they became very sort of embroiled in that scandal. And Emma, were women always involved in cocoa production in the caribbean

um yeah i mean i think well that's sort of what i found is that women um whether they were working as a slave laborer or then as indentured laborers that women had been involved in this industry and that was really interesting how women were so used to women as being part of the advertising of cocoa and chocolate and being seen as the consumers. And then we don't often think of them as really important to the production, both the farming of cocoa and then through to the to the chocolate factories where they're often sort of half the labour force was women. Yeah, they've been involved in all kinds of ways in farming cocoa. Interestingly, so when production moved to West Africa, particularly Ghana and Nigeria, obviously they were British colonies at the time, Calbury's kind of marketed its chocolate as coming from Empire Beans

and being a British product, and that was clearly seen as quite important. Yeah, and that was interesting because they did sort of shift away from that. So, yeah, some of the early advertising, I guess it would be sort of that late 19th century advertising where they had the beans on the adverts, on the posters, and so that sense that it was a tropical product and that it was a British Empire product

and that that was part of the story. And then how that sort of disappears in the 20th century although rantries in 1940s do use two um black characters to advertise their cocoa little they're called little honey bunch and little cocoa and they kind of there's a little bit of a link there um to the sort of west african origins but not in the same way that cabri had done where it was very much like this is yeah an empire product from out of its control to the whole process being controlled by cabarets. I think that was the sense that they were giving it's a quality product because of that. Many people will know that many of the main

chocolate manufacturers were these Quaker families who opposed slavery and exploitation and they were known for social welfare at home. How did that translate to the way that they treated their overseas workers and the farmers that they dealt with? I mean, looking at the, in British West Africa, the formation of the buying agencies, and some historians argue that this is a reaction against that scandal that happened in the early 20th century, that they want to be more directly involved in their buying

from the West African cocoa farmers because in the Nigeria and Ghana there was much more of the small scale farms rather than plantations cocoa was growing better on sort of small more family-run farms but round trees and cubbies sent their own buying agents to buy directly and they certainly portrayed that as being sort of more in keeping with their you you know, fairer treatment, cutting out the middleman, buying direct from the farmers, therefore the farm kicked more of the profits. So I think they did present that certainly in that way, as more in keeping with their sort of overall ethos as firms.

And those family firms, there would have been a lot of women involved in working there, even though in a lot of the pictures, a lot of the photographs, it does appear that it's just all male agricultural farming. Yeah, and I think it seems, especially in Nigeria, that was the perception that this is women don't really farm cocoa, it's men that farm the cocoa. And I think it's often the case in agriculture where you see that, that sort of men are the farmers and women don't really farm and sort of ignoring the fact that women are doing lots of labour on farms, sometimes even on their own farms and employing people so I think

there's that perception that it's a very male-dominated form of agriculture um but then when you sort of look at what's happening um and speaking to some of the women in my scale it was a very small study that I did I'm not a West African historian but just speaking to some of the women about the kind of things that they were doing and spraying crops weeding all kinds of things things that just needed to be done it was that kind of practical if it needs to be done we're going to get on and and do it um but i think there's i think overall there's a sort of perception i think that women were more likely to be doing things like scooping beans out of of cocoa pods and men would be doing maybe more the harvesting and those sort of tasks.

I think that was a sort of perceived division of labour. And I also noticed that you wrote about how there was a kind of a narrative around how the wives of cocoa farmers could be used to influence them, you know, about best practice. Yeah, you see that in that sort of the imperial agricultural type um literature there's this sense that oh you know these there was i always feel there was this sort of um discomfort that somehow west african farmers have managed to make quite a success of this without any european um influence and how how is this going on and there was always this attempt

to improve the forms of agriculture and yet it was, well, if we can get to the wives, the wives will kind of educate the farmers. So they're the kind of, we need to sort of find them, even though the perception is it's the men that are doing it. So, yeah, you sort of see those very colonial discourses around perceptions of these farmers in British West Africa at the time. Even from those very early days, there seems to be a bit of a duality in the way that chocolate was marketed into Britain.

There was, you know, the drinking chocolate marketed to mothers as very wholesome and nutritious. And yet, of course, chocolate very quickly became sort of part of a tempting, sensual marketing campaign. Yeah, I think it's one of the things that I find really fascinating about chocolate is just how it can be shaped into so many different forms. Quite literally, it can be in different forms. And the way in which women are used in quite different ways sometimes

to market different types. So from the cocoa advertising, that sort of drinking chocolate, almost a food substitute, you really see those domestic housewives type adverts. And then you get things like Black Magic chocolate assortments, which are this much more sexual and centralised form of advertising with women. The Black Magic especially seems this sort of higher class, it's dark chocolate. It's for the higher classes and these society ladies as consuming that versus a dairy box, more of a cheap and cheerful, you can buy it for a shilling type advert and women being presented quite differently. So they're using lots of sort of different stereotypes

of femininity to market different types of chocolate. And I just find that really fascinating as a product. I think it's quite different, say, to something like tea, just its sheer malleability, I guess. Now, as well as looking at the women who were working in Nigeria, you also looked at the women who were working in York. And they were working, were they working in the factories in Britain almost from day one?

Were there always women working there? When I was looking at the sort of 19th century factories, yeah, women were present there. In Round Trees, the sort of 1862, 1860s, the early Round Trees factory, women are there right from the start. Were there always roles, Emma, that were considered women's work?

Were women working in different areas of the factory than men? It's quite interesting with food how gendered roles sort of take hold. And there's this assumption, I think, that women's roles in sort of domestic food mean that they can move into the factory of food production easier. I mean, I think it's more complicated than that. But certainly things like the delicate work with chocolate, maybe hand dipping and the

chocolate, the centres for chocolate assortments were seen as something that women were very good at, piping decorations or marking decorations onto chocolate assortments, packing things, things that had to be quite dexterous were seen as more suited to women. And men were often moving, maybe sort of processing the raw cocoa, moving products around the factory. So, yeah, I think there was that divide.

And that maintained into quite late into the 20th century when it did start to break down. And there's sort of not really assembly lines, but the production lines became more mixed quite late in the 20th century. So what was life like for women working in the Ryan Trees factory in York at the beginning of the 20th century. So what was life like for women working in the Roundtree's factory in York at the beginning of the 20th century? I think some of the early stories are quite interesting. I think Roundtree, you know, they did from quite early on, especially when they moved

their factory out of the inner city to this more sort of garden factory site, had quite a good reputation and were bringing in certain welfare things quite early for some of the women and men who were working there. One of the best ones was, I think it was 1905, they introduced a violinist into the factory to come and play for the women workers to encourage them to, you know, keep working and to sing hymns as they were working. So they would do sort of things like that that were quite different.

I mean, I think a lot of it was, as working in a factory was, you know, those sort of same conditions. But I think working with chocolate, when I was in the oral histories, more the second half of the 20th century, women talking about maybe sneaking a little bit of dairy milk chocolate as they were working or putting some chocolates in their pockets for later. And I found that interesting, that working in a chocolate factory

and what that might be like and the pride that they took in those chocolates and decorating them. The skill of hand-decorating chocolates came across really strongly. There was something called the housewife's shift. Just tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, this wasn't just in chocolate factories, but after the Second world war um trying to get um more women um as as sort of chocolate and confectionery production increased after the end

of rationing they were trying to get more women into the factory so they introduced the so-called housewife shift which was meant to be you could sort of put your get your kids sorted during the day and then come to work i think it's about half past five for a few hours in the evening and this was seen to pick the appeal to yet married women think it was about half past five for a few hours in the evening. And this was seen as the appeal to married women with kids who could come and put in a few hours. And again, women would often come in at those peak times, like Easter, like Christmas. They're a really important workforce to come in and do all that kind

of more packing, more decorating of chocolates. So the housewife shift was really important in that post-war era. Emma, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us, for sharing your insights. It's been really interesting. And thank you very much indeed for staying up so late in Bendigo, Australia. Lovely to talk to you. Now, today, women play a critical role in the cocoa industry in West Africa, but their voices are rarely heard. Patriarchal attitudes often exclude them from decision-making, land ownership and selling the crop. The women's ability to join cooperatives, receive training, access finance and improve their lives is limited

because it's hard for them to acquire land and to receive equal status. Well, Dr. Niago Niono is a Fairtrade Global CEO and she joins us now. Niago, thank you very much indeed for joining us. It's good to see you. What type of work can you tell me do women do in cocoa production today in West Africa? Is it laborious manual labour or are some parts of it mechanised now? Women in cocoa production do almost all the work. They make 68% of the workforce in cocoa production, do almost all the work. They make 68% of the workforce in cocoa production. So basically, most of the work is done by them. But unfortunately, they earn the least from cocoa production.

You say they earn the least. Can you give us an idea of how much they would earn per day? They earn as little, those who earn, earn as little as 23 pence per day. 23 pence? 23 pence per day, which, as you know, is well below the poverty line of 1.4 pounds and five times less than what the men earn. So even though they say that cocoa is a partnership crop, women cocoa farmers are less than men who are doing more of the work. Would this be somewhere where they're actually working alongside a man on a cocoa farm and yet they're getting paid so much less?

They could be working alongside at some times, but in most times the women are in the field. So the work that the women are doing in the fields, this sounds like back-breaking work, it's very physical manual labour. Oh yes it is, it is manual labour and it may not be detrimental to their health as such, but it would make much more sense if what they put in as work is also appreciated in terms of them getting better paid than they are. For example, having something close to a living income where they're able to take care of their basic needs and maybe also finance some eventualities that may come in their life. But this is not

happening. And this is what we are trying to do as Fairtrade to help empower them, but also to help see that they get better returns for the work that they put in cocoa production. Nia Goy, you are Fairtrade Global CEO, but your mum was actually a farmer. What was her daily life like? Has that been a big influence on you and the decisions that you're trying to make now and the difference you're trying to make? So she was a small scale farmer. But what's influenced me about my mum is luckily for her, being a small scale farmer, she was also a pastor's wife. So she underwent leadership training, training in nutrition and health, training in good agricultural practices. Because in those days, pastor's wives were expected to play leadership roles and be role models, much like their spouses.

So she was involved in a lot of development activities at the village level. And as such, she was recognized as an opinion leader in the community and highly respected by both women and men until way into her 90s. But however, one challenge that she did face, I must admit, was around land ownership. Her farm was a demonstration farm used by government extension workers. But because she didn't own the land, all official correspondence and agricultural inputs came in the name of my father. So that was the big difference. But what drives me is that I witnessed through my mother the power in a woman that can bring positive change to a community. Because what we see now among women farmers in cocoa production is that, for example, their needs as farmers

are not met. Less than 5% of agricultural extension services reach women farmers. Women only receive only 10% of loans that go to small farmers. they are less likely to access essential agricultural inputs. And as I said before, they earn very little. And because they don't earn the land that they farm on, they cannot always access to join the cooperatives and access the services the cooperatives are giving. So how difficult is it for women to have land rights and finance? Land rights, very difficult because this is really a cultural norm that has been and still is. In few cases, you find that

some start getting land from their men or maybe they inherit from their mothers if they didn't have brothers. So it is very difficult. And related to that is access to finance, because somebody has to have collateral to get finance. But if the land is not in their name, they cannot get the loan that they may seek. And for this reason, and all the other reasons related to the disadvantaged women in cocoa production, this is where fair trade standards and programmes come in to push for equality. And we have a global strategy that aims to close this gap. Now, I know you're very involved in the Women's School of Leadership. Just explain to us a little bit about that and how it's promoting women's rights in this area. In the Women's School of Leadership, we aim to achieve equal opportunities for all whom we work with,

and that is both men and women, because as Fairtrade, we believe in social justice and we believe that women's rights are human rights. So in the Women's School of Leadership is a training and mentoring program that we run to empower the women to help them develop their leadership skills so that they are able to take their destiny into their own hands. So this is also enabling them to have more leadership roles in the cooperatives that they belong to, but also lead activities in the communities. While at the same time not forgetting, the same programme enables them to earn a better income. Have you noticed positive concrete changes in the lives of women who've attended the Women's School of Leadership? Oh yeah, there are many examples. But I'll lift out one of a lady called Rosine. When Rosine joined the Women's School of Leadership,

she could hardly address a small group of people. She was very shy. But after graduation, some people in the UK might remember Rosine. She participated in the Fairtrade Fortnite campaign in the UK. She told her stories at various events. She travels across the UK. She was confident enough to talk in the parliament. She gave interviews to journalists and TV stations. And, you know, Rosene during this time told her story,

describing how thanks to the training that she received at the Women's School of Leadership, she was able to gain the respect and honor of her spouse. She also feels a lot more respected by members of our community and her family and also her cooperative. As we speak, Rosina now is head of several associations and she's able to stand up and assert herself. So Rosina's become aware of the potential and value as a woman and as a farmer. So Rosina's story has really inspired others. We have a new entrant by the name of Salome, and I quote Salome. She says that, I confess that I'm a very shy person, and this is the particular reason why I'm particularly interested in this programme. I hope that at the end of this programme, I will see my self-confidence

boosted. Nia Goy, listening to you, I'm sure that a lot of people will think I don't want to buy chocolate from somebody who is earning 23p a day working in fields and providing the cocoa beans that will be used. As consumers, what choices can we make when we buy chocolate to make sure that we are not buying chocolate from people and women who've been exploited? Well, as consumers, when you buy that bar of chocolate, I think it's important to see whether it has, for example, the Fairtrade label.

And I specifically say the Fairtrade label because we care about cushioning farmers from the volatility of the market. So we have our Fairtrade minimum price, we have Fairtrade, we have the Fairtrade premium, but also just our programs that are there to empower some of the most vulnerable women in West Africa so that their story can change, so that they can take their destiny in their own hands. So if you buy that fair trade chocolate bar, you're making a difference in someone's life.

Dr. Niyagoy Nyonon, thank you very much indeed. Of course, producing the beans is the first part of the process, but there are thousands of people employed in Britain making everything from mass-produced chocolate bars to high-end organic artisanal offerings. Earlier, we heard a little bit about life for women who worked at the Raintree factory in York. Here's a clip from the Yorkshire Film Archive of girls in the box packing department singing My Girl's A Yorkshire Girl. Whoa, that's taken from the film Next Stop York, Help Yourself to Some Chocolates. So what's it like to work in a chocolate factory today? Well, Sarah Hartley is a quality controller at Whittaker's.

It's a family firm that's been making chocolate since 1889. Sarah, welcome. How long have you worked there? I've been there 12 years. Tell me, what does a quality controller involve? It kind of sounds like it might be the best job ever. Eating a lot of chocolate. I definitely do that.

Just making sure that all our products meet like customer specifications so we're doing everything that the customer wants us to do so my job is to check that before it leaves the factory everything's as it should be so the chocolate you you don't get you don't get cocoa beans arriving in your factory just tell me how it's so liquid it comes in in tankers. We order what we need. And yeah, it comes in through a chocolate intake into the factory, through the pipelines into the correct tanks it needs to be in. We were hearing a little bit from the historian earlier, from Emma, about how there used to be very distinct men's and women's roles

in a chocolate factory. Does any of that still apply today? No, no, I wouldn't say it does, actually. We've got quite a split staff, a lot of men, a lot of women. But the men do the packing, the women run the machinery. So, yeah, it's quite mixed. And do you think that there is that kind of sense of community? You know, traditionally, whole families might have worked

in chocolate factories and the companies prided themselves on having workers who stayed with them for a very long time, maybe all their working lives. Does any of that ring true today? Yes, we have quite a few married couples in there. We've got quite a few families, mostly married couples. And how much of the chocolate that you make is you know is still made by hand you know we were hearing about how you know women were particularly good at perhaps um the doing the delicate icing and things onto onto chocolate fondants does does that happen today by hand still? Um yeah we do do stuff by hand yeah we make all buttered fudge that's all made by hand and most

of the chocolate's made by hand in the in the chocolate area where the chocolate's produced packed by hand as well. Well we heard those women singing when they were packing by hand. Most of the chocolate's made by hand in the chocolate area where the chocolate's produced. Packed by hand as well. Well, we heard those women singing when they were packing by hand. Is there any singing today? No, no. I'm not in work today this week. I'm on holiday. So tell me about your typical day when you are at work.

Hours I do seven till five, Monday to Friday. Every day can be different. And I had a look at the company's website and you are making those kind of luxury boxes of chocolates quite a lot. You know, the kind of thing you might take round to someone's house for a celebration or a birthday. I wonder, does it feel good to be making something that you know gives lots of pleasure? Oh yeah, definitely, yeah. I wonder what it's been like over the past year though, because it must have been difficult working on the chocolate factory floor

during a pandemic. Did you close? Did you stay open? How did it work? We shut down for three weeks during the first lockdown. So we had three weeks off there, mainly just to get production

for social distancing at work. We had to change a lot of the factory floor around so that we could be social distanced. But yeah, just three weeks. And then we came back at the end of March, beginning of April. Yeah, it's been quite busy since, especially the retail side of things. We do a lot of chocolates by catering restaurants.

And so obviously that side's dipped a bit. It's not as busy, but the retail side has been quite busy, yeah. And you're hoping that it'll all start ramping up again. Christmas is your busiest time, isn't it? Yes, definitely. And we've got that it'll all start ramping up again. Christmas is your busiest time, isn't it? Yes, definitely. And we've got a lot of new products coming out as well.

We're starting to do a lot of vegan products and we're doing a vegan tin. Yes, we're doing a milk and chocolate vegan tin that's coming out and we've collaborated

with gin. So we're doing gin flavoured chocolates and so we've got a lot of exciting stuff coming up this year. Sarah, thank you very much indeed for sharing all that with us. Sarah Hartley from Whittaker's.

Chocolate advertising has long been linked with women and sex, although that is the first time I've heard gin being added to the mix. In the 1930s, cocoa advertising focused on housewives and mothers, but it soon became more sexualised and aligned with romance, temptation and desire. Dr Catherine Janssen-Boyd is a reader in consumer psychology at Anglia Ruskin University and Sue Quinn is a food writer and author of Cocoa, an exploration of chocolate. Welcome, both of you. Sue, how were women targeted in chocolate advertising initially?

I'm thinking particularly of the 1930s. So I think by that time, milk chocolate had been developed, and that was a really important development in chocolate advertising. Competition between the big chocolate companies in Britain was intense, and manufacturers had to come up with really innovative ideas to try to compete with each other. And the fact that milk was added to chocolate instigated this whole stream of advertising based on nourishing and looking after your family. So it was aimed at women. Some advertisements even suggested that you really weren't nourishing your family properly if you didn't include chocolate in the diet. Very much a wholesome, nutritious, almost exclusively

based on women. What advertising there was that included men was very much of the action man variety. You might see a man depicted in his mountain climbing gear with the bar of chocolate in his backpack. But generally it was aimed at women as the nurturers. I know that when chocolate first came to England, it was drunk by men in coffee houses, the ubiquitous Samuel Pepys, who seems to tell us everything, tells us that, of course. But I wonder, why then was it women that were targeted and considered to be kind of chocolate obsessed?

Was it just this idea of nurturing that they were the ones with the buying power to make the choices for the family? Later it was that, but actually this whole idea that women are obsessed with chocolate goes back a lot longer. You can trace that back to the 17th century after the Spanish invaded and colonised the New World, where, of course, chocolate had been enjoyed for thousands of years as a medicine, as a ceremonial drink, and also as an energy drink.

Chocolate was given to soldiers going off to battle and fed to women who were in childbirth to sustain them through labour. And Europeans, when they invaded the New World, really didn't know what to make of chocolate. They were a bit confused, didn't understand it, were quite suspicious of it. And that extended to the people who made the chocolate drinks and who administered the chocolate as medicine, which of course was women. So you started to see these negative stories emerge about women and their relationship with chocolate, you know, drifting across the Atlantic, including this suggestion that they

weren't able to control their cravings. So there's one quite famous account written by an English clergyman who talks about a group of Spanish women in the town of Chiapas who was so addicted to chocolate that they ignored an order by the bishop to stop drinking it during mass. And he was saying that these women were prepared to risk excommunication, hellfire, such was their addiction and ruthless pursuit of chocolate. So you've got that kind of idea that women were basically addicted to it. In the 18th century, doctors in the New World also blamed chocolate for outbreaks of hysteria, what they described as hysteria. They particularly targeted an order of nuns with that. And there was also this idea that if you enjoyed chocolate, and I'm talking about in the New World, you'd somehow gone a bit native,

you'd lost your cultural identity. And that, of course, was not viewed in a positive way in Europe. Catherine, is there any evidence that women actually like chocolate more than men? No, there isn't. There is absolutely no evidence for this. Unfortunately, this is a bit of a myth. And it's something that people have been saying for a while without being able to have any evidence for it. So research recently has actually found that it's much more likely to be socially influenced.

So we're kind of bombarded with all this information throughout our lifespans that women should like chocolate more. And it comes from being, you know, it's particularly good when you're premenstrual and all these things. But when they tested it, there is no real foundation for it. So it seems to be that we're just taking people's word for it and keep passing on the information and people therefore buy into it. Much of the advertising, Catherine, is aimed at men, but by trying to persuade them to buy chocolates for their wife or girlfriend or any woman in their life that they would like to go out with, really. You know, I'm thinking of, you know, black magic and milk tray. When did the chocolate industry increase its kind of sexualisation of women in their advertising?

Well, it's been gradual, I guess. It sort of started off with, as we kind of heard a little bit, it was mainly aimed at women in different categories and then originally people often used the children because housewives were seen as the real kind of purchasing power and then they moved on from this when they realized that perhaps women were getting more sort of in tune with the fact that it wasn't so good for their kids and didn't want to buy it for their children and then of course advertisers shifted strategy quite quickly and thought, what can we do? And then to try to appeal to women to think of it as something indulgent, something nice to have, something very pleasurable,

of course, meant if you also want to show that you are loving them, you will give this to them so they can have those moments. And does the packaging, the actual shape of chocolates actually influence whether or not women buy it? Well, this is a really interesting thing. So there's a lot of food related research generally that actually shows that women prefer rounded contours. We don't know exactly why, it's just repeatedly been proven. So by having slightly rounded contours, women tend to kind of connect with it in a different way and maybe this also explains why some chocolate bars and particularly of men get tend to be a little bit bulkier and very square by nature there's no

actual empirical evidence though to support the idea that men prefer squares. But women definitely like softer, rounder elements to foods that they consume. We do know that. So for certain it works for women. So the latest marketing trend perhaps is this kind of ethically produced organic dark chocolate. You know, people obsessing over the percentage of cocoa solids. And it's definitely considered an upmarket and expensive health food. I wonder if that is just a bit more marketing or are there any real health benefits to eating dark chocolate? Oh, shall I put a downer on that Easter weekend?

OK, so here's the truth of it. Dark chocolate is healthier for you because it contains less sugar. So to that extent, that is true. It's also true that it's richer, so you don't eat as much of it. And it's also true that cocoa or cacao is a very complex ingredient that contains all sorts of fantastic healthful compounds, which scientists are really interested in investigating more to see if they have health benefits that we can take advantage of. So there's evidence that some of

these compounds can potentially reduce blood pressure and reduce the risk of heart attack. But we're talking about the compounds and the research has been done in obviously very concentrated amounts and not in your favorite fruit and nut bar. And the scientists I spoke to when I was researching my book said very clearly that you would have to eat a gargantuan amount of even dark chocolate to consume enough of these compounds to have any health benefits. However, saying that, I do know of a heart specialist who does eat a square or two of dark chocolate every day. And I'm firmly of the belief that eating something that you really enjoy and you like the taste of is good for body and soul. So...

I hear, hear to that. It's not a health food, but I think we can all enjoy dark chocolate. Catherine, how much is gender stereotyping in advertising around chocolate being scrutinised? Well, it's not being scrutinised enough. Generally, advertising industry now is looked at in regards to being quite equal between the genders so that you're not belittling women or anything along those lines. Having said that, it seems that chocolate gets away with a little bit more. We have seen recent examples of this, whereby they've taken a very traditional

approach to advertising by introducing Audrey Hepburn being lured off by a bus by a strange man to go and consume her chocolates in his car and so forth. If this was any other product, there would most likely have been an uproar about it because it's not actually deemed appropriate. But they are quite subtle. They have various ways of getting around these things, such as in this case, of course, Audrey Hepburn is no longer alive and they can refer back to the time where she was alive, where it would have been acceptable.

So they're kind of putting it into context. But of course, as a modern viewer who may not know who she is or when she lived or what was going on back then, potentially they are still sending a very stereotypical image of women, which is not actually great. Sue, we've seen how marketing around chocolate has evolved over the years. Do you think that chocolate adverts will become less sexualised? Where are we going with chocolate? I actually think that chocolate advertising is changing already. I had a little kind of look through the most recent TV adverts for chocolate last night.

And I think advertisers are slightly confused about how to place women in chocolate advertising. A couple I saw, one featured a woman who was clearly on her way to a business meeting because she was wearing a suit on a train, having a wild fantasy about chocolate. Another commercial I saw featured a woman who spent her days in the boardroom and the rest of her time looking after a tribe of children and running marathons. And she ate chocolate at the end of the day to reward herself of all that. So women are still there. And for some reason, advertisers think that women are the ones that need to be focused. But worryingly, I think it's starting to get more subtle. Now, in my book I wrote, I made reference to a brand of or a kind of chocolate that was marketed as an anti-aging chocolate. And I wrote my book a couple of years

ago and I went back yesterday or this morning to see if it was still available. And it very much is. This chocolate doesn't have TV commercials, but it had a presence at London Fashion Week last year. It's on Instagram and it's available through beauty spas and top department stores. And it claims to protect women's skin from ageing and to contribute to its radiant appearance by combining powerful antioxidants with cocoa,

all in a low calorie bar, of course. So that kind of, it taps into women's anxieties about their appearance, concerns about their weight and the particular urge, again, that women have for chocolate. So it's all the lady things rolled into one. It's probably going to be a while before that disappears from advertising, I fear. Well, what an amazing place to leave it. Chocolate as an anti-aging product. We really have had it all today.

Sue Quinn, food writer and Dr Catherine Janssen-Boyd from Anglia Ruskin University. Thank you both very much indeed. And now our drama series, Eleanor Rising. Sean McKenna's historical drama about the young Eleanor of Aquitaine, wife and mother to kings, crusader, pioneer and formidable political operator.

Guilt is driving a wedge between Eleanor and her lovely, Ellie. I could eat her with a spoon. Hello, Marie. Hello, little love. Remember Aunt Petra? She won't remember. She's only seen you once. Oh, she might.

You're just another face in a wimple. A special face, thank you. She barely knows who I am. Louis's given her her own household. Of course. She's a princess. Is she walking? Not quite. She can crawl and she can stand, but she hasn't quite put the two together yet. Isabella was walking at 15 months. It's not a competition, Petra. Of course it is. We're sisters. Wait till you meet your cousin. Won't you two have fun?

I can't believe how much she's grown. How is Louis? Oh, you'll see him at dinner. And no need to ask how you are. Me? The loveliest lady in Christendom, if you believe the songs. Well, I don't. You look awful. Petra?

You're much too thin, your skin's dry, and the make-up isn't covering it up nearly as well as you think. What's wrong, Ellie? Nothing. As if I'm going to believe that. Eleanor, I want you. Look, Louis, Petra Nilla's here. A whole week early. Ralph is two days behind me. Hello, brother. My lord king. In private, Eleanor. Shall I? No,

play with Marie. I'll come out, Louis. What is it? You look like you've swallowed a wasp. Are you having an affair? Louis, where has this come from? I don't know why I'm asking. You won't tell me. I'm not having an affair. Suge said you'd deny it. Suge, of course. Don't go all wide-eyed on me.

It's not as if it's a ridiculous idea. All that filthy poetry you love, it was only a matter of time. I'm not having an affair. It's the talk of the court. Mothers heard it too. No doubt from Suje. You're making a fool of me, Eleanor. With whom? On what evidence? When? Who witnessed it? Suje can't just make things up and claim they're true. That isn't how truth works. This is so like you. You go on the attack when you should be begging forgiveness. What's wrong, Louis? I'd have thought that was clear. No, you're upset and accusing me of something you know I haven't done.

Sujere says. Oh, that man. You never should have taken him back. He says anything he likes and you believe it. I trust him. He's loyal. You can't keep a secret at court, Eleanor. I don't have a secret. I know Sujere hates me, Louis, but I don't know why you do all of a sudden.

Louis. It's not all of a sudden. That still. I burned a thousand people to death in a cathedral because you told me to stand up for myself. You didn't mean to, and it wasn't like that. Prove you're a man, you said. And all those souls died screaming. Louis. Don't like that. Prove you're a man, you said. And all those souls died screaming.

Louis... Don't touch me. I thought with time passing... It gets worse, not better. The Pope lifted his excommunication. Theobald of Champagne gave in. Ralph and Petra stayed married. Yes, you and your sister got what you wanted.

Come in and see the baby. She always cheers you up. She's almost walking. Is she? Oh. She's a little beauty. Like me, Mother says. The capé knows. Poor Marie. That's not true, then.

No, it's not true. Come and see Marie. I can't. I have to formally receive Geoffrey of Anjou. Oh, is he back? I expect his wife wants more money to fund her army. I'll join you if you like. We can put on a bit of a show.

He'd like that. Now he's Duke of Normandy. He's a thug. He's not. He's clever and funny and charming and you shouldn't trust him an inch. I don't trust anyone. Except Sujet. Who was I supposed to be having an affair with?

Markabrew. Oh, Louis, give me some credit. He's always praising your beauty, your eyes, your figure. He's a troubadour. It's what he's paid for. Markabrew doesn't even like women. What do you mean he doesn't like women? Are you saying... No, no, I'm not saying that.

Good. I'd have him hanged. That would be a waste. He's very talented. I'll send him away if that would make Suje happy. It probably would be best. I do know that Suje hates you. I don't know what more I can do. I set back, Louis. You shouted at me, Suje shouted at me. Bernard of Clairvaux spent a whole afternoon telling me

I was the devil's instrument for having an opinion. So I don't any more. No more opinions. Hmm. And I don't want anybody else. Not some brawny, handsome soldier to tumble you in a hayfield. I like the sound of the hayfield. I knew it.

But not with a soldier. With a tall, skinny, God-fearing man who worries too much and dresses more like a monk than a monarch. I'm wearing the hair shirt again. I heard. Does it itch? Terribly.

But it's good for me. Come down soon. Geoffrey's expected before dinner. Listening at the door, Petra? It's the only way women ever find things out. How long has he been like that? No wonder you're thin. This time apparently I'm sleeping with Mark Brew.

Oh, that's likely. This time... Let's not talk about it. Oh, but Mark Brew. Men see nothing, do they? They see what suits them. Come down for dinner. The Duke of Normandy's on his way.

Gorgeous Geoffrey. Stop. You're happily married. I am, yes But Geoffrey flirts so well It's very entertaining I'm not even sure he knows he's doing it He knows

And you're not to cause trouble Perhaps you should have an affair If you're going to be accused anyway If I thought you meant that You'd what? Send me home? Have me flogged through the streets? Don't think I wouldn't. You could do worse than gorgeous, Geoffrey.

No. I'll stay quiet and things will improve. That's not the Ellie I know. Maybe she's gone. Don't say that. Ever. I need you to live up to. Being married to Ralph suits you, Petra. It's good to be back in Paris, my lord. I hope all is well, Count Geoffrey. That's a marvellous collar.

Such embroidery. You remember my sister, the Countess of Vermandois? Of course. A rose among lilies. You see? And you, my sister, the Countess of Vermandois? Of course. A rose among lilies. You see? And you, my Queen, grow more beautiful with every passing season. Motherhood suits you. Oh, that's a very conventional compliment, Count Geoffrey. You've a reputation to keep up. Don't disappoint us. Petronilla. I do apologise. Not at all. My queen, you are like a young eagle.

Her tawny eyes all seeing, her golden feathers sleek as she soars above the frozen earth. Petra! I hate this kind of talk. Eagles, of course, have sharp beaks and claws. I am aware. I hear the troubadour is leaving court. There'll be a vacancy. You should apply. Petra! I won't be here long enough. My wife sends her obedience, Your Majesty.

She's in England still? Fighting for her cause. That's why I'm here. I have a request. Speak to Sujair or one of his secretaries. He'll arrange something. Or you could tell us now. Speak to Sujair. It's not complicated. I want your daughter to marry my son. Marie? She's not two yet. And Henry's twelve. It would strengthen

his claim to the English throne and give you an ally across the channel. We'll discuss it. Speak to Suge. Thank you, sire. Geoffrey, would you get me another cup of wine? There are servants for that, Petra. Well, it'll taste so much sweeter from the Duke's own hand.

Please, Geoffrey. I, um, Your Majesty? Go, go. My liege. My lady. Bloody man, I knew he was up to something. At least he was forthright about it. I won't be dragged into England's civil war.

Matilda's claim to the English throne is completely legitimate. I thought you'd given up having opinions. Yes. Sorry. If the English barons wanted Matilda, they wouldn't be fighting her. I'm not putting another Sontime in her war chest. She can hardly rule, can she?

And if she wins, Geoffrey will be king. Not king consort. It's the same thing. Can you imagine? A suje will hate this. And what in the name of St Agnes is your sister playing at? Flirting openly like a troll.

She hasn't been off her estate for more than a year. She's excited to be back at court. This will not help your reputation in Suje's eyes. Or mother's. My reputation? Stay at Petra's side. Restrain her. Chaperone her, if you must.

I won't be embarrassed by your family again. What are you playing at, Petra? If Ralph hears about it... Ralph trusts me. Besides, I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it for you. I owe you for being allowed to marry Ralph. I think you need diversion,

and nobody's as diverting as Geoffrey of Anjou. I'm not some silly girl to be flattered and admired. I'm the Queen of France. You should be admired. You're admirable. You shouldn't be squashed by anyone, Ellie. You shouldn't be afraid to speak. Oh, Petra. I'm not suggesting you leap into bed with Geoffrey,

though no doubt that would be diverting. I'm saying that here is someone from outside the court who's famously as bright as he's handsome and who is also married to someone who wants to wear a crown but doesn't quite know how. You'll have things to talk about. I have to chaperone you.

I've been instructed. Good. Geoffrey and I are going riding in the morning. The fresh air will do you good. Do you find it lonely, being queen? I'm never alone. Well, that wasn't my question. The answer is none of your business.

Where's Petra? Petra, keep up. Coming. You'd think she was almost trying to be discreet. Petra? Unlikely. Leaving us alone so I can make my case. Your case? My Henry and your Marie.

It's a waste of time talking to me, my lord. I have no influence. Go riding with Sujet. He'd steal my saddle and then sell it back to me. That lord, I have no influence. Go riding with Suje. He'd steal my saddle and then sell it back to me. That's very true. Your husband doesn't listen to you. He did, for a while. Oh, Matilda doesn't listen to me either, if it's any consolation. When your first husband was the German emperor, a mere duke, doesn't cut much ice. I doubt that. Oh, it's all right.

It's an excellent marriage politically and we're both very happy. The less we see of one another, the happier we are. Is that true of you, too? Feel free to tell me I'm being disrespectful. I don't know what you want, my lord, but please don't flirt with my sister. If anything, it's the other way round. And please don't flirt with me. Am I doing that?

Aren't you? Not intentionally. You interest me, though. You kept hold of the Akiten when a man as sharp as Sucher was trying to steal it from you. You turned your monkish husband into a king. You stood up to the old pope and won. What an Amazon you make me sound. Well, yes. I was expecting an Amazon.

Am I a disappointment then? A surprise. You're meeker than I anticipated. Meek? Me? As though something's been knocked out of you. I could have you whipped for a remark like that. Now that's more the woman I was expecting. That's better.

I'm faithful to Louis, whatever you may hear. It's interesting you feel the need to tell me that. In case you had ideas. I'm not short of companionship, thank you. And it's very arrogant, my lady, to assume you're so desirable. I'm Queen of Frampt. Of course I'm desirable. There is something I want, certainly. My non-existent influence with the king?

No. Your opinion. What? Your honest opinion of my wife's chances in England. You're serious? I think you're uniquely placed to answer. I'd value your insight. Hello, you two. My, you look serious.

The Duke was asking my opinion on a serious matter. Oh? And your opinion is? Shall we ride up to the brow of the hill and back? I find suddenly I have a lot to say. Yeah. And Eleanor Rising continues at the same time tomorrow.

And tonight at 11pm, you can listen to the repeat of Clemency Burton-Hill's Return to the Mic for the special International Women's Day edition of Classic Fix. From me, goodbye. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Who? Oh, come on, you remember. I'm about to return to Daytime Radio 4 with a new series called Life Changing, which I really hope you get the chance to listen to. It's also, of course, available as a podcast right here on BBC Sounds. And it's all about some amazing, really intelligent, insightful people taking me through some of their extraordinary life challenges. To give you an idea, just have a quick listen to this. I knew, I said, this is it. I didn't know where I was going, what I was going to do.

And literally, like what is seen in the films, I just took apart my mobile phone and threw out the SIM card and I just drove as fast and as far away as I could. We just quietly stood there just the stunned disbelief you cannot believe what you're looking at. I just want to get inside your head here you're sitting there in your house in Wales and you're messaging a woman whose Malaysian royalty, as it turns out, also your half-sister. I mean, have you got a cup of tea there with you? A packet of hobnobs? I mean, this is crazy, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Join us if you can. I promise you won't regret it. Subscribe now to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.