Woman's Hour - The film Lynn and Lucy; The Double X Economy; Gender Bias at Work and Domestic Abuse Bill.

Episode Date: July 2, 2020

Lynn and Lucy is a new film about the lives of two best friends in a close-knit community in Essex whose relationship is tested after a tragedy happens. It stars Nichola Burley and Roxanne Scrimshaw in her first acting role. Roxanne joins Jenni to discuss female friendship, community, motherhood and the depiction of working class women on screen. The Domestic Abuse Bill 2020 is currently making its way through Parliament, and will reach the House of Lords by the end of July. For the first time there will be a statutory definition of domestic abuse. The Centre for Women’s Justice is asking for an amendment to the Bill, to create a free-standing offence of non-fatal strangulation or asphyxiation. Nicole Jacobs, the first domestic abuse commissioner for England and Wales, explains why she is supporting them.Professor Linda Scott’s book "The Double X Economy" describes how women are excluded from the global economy in myriad ways, in both developing and developed countries. She claims that the global economy's wealth would be £160 trillion higher if the gender pay gap were closed. Linda explains how empowering women economically could not only resolve gender equality but also help address many of humankind’s most pressing problems.And there are a record number of women in employment – and that includes women slowly but surely increasing their presence in senior management positions and professions that have traditionally been dominated by men. But has ‘being in the room’ really led to changes in attitudes towards women’s capabilities? Or is gender bias still alive and well? Jenni is joined by Professor Michelle Ryan, the author of a new study about gender bias from the University of Exeter and Carina White who works in sports marketing.

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Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday the 2nd of July. Good morning. In today's programme, the XX economy. Professor Linda Scott describes how women are excluded from the global economy and claims worldwide wealth would be £160 trillion higher if the pay gap were closed. But how will gender bias at work end? As more women reach positions of senior management, what real difference has their being in the room actually made?

And a film called Lynn and Lucy, about best friends whose relationship is tested by tragedy. Roxanne Scrimshaw had never acted before she was chosen to play Lynne. What does she make of the portrayal of working-class women on the big screen? Now, as the Domestic Abuse Bill continues to make its way through Parliament, and it's expected that by the end of July there will, for the first time, be a statutory definition of domestic abuse. An amendment to the bill is being requested by the Centre for Women's Justice. They want

non-fatal strangulation or asphyxiation to be added to the bill as a freestanding offence. Why? Well Sandra has had experience of such abuse. Nicole Jacobs is the first domestic abuse commissioner for England and Wales. Nicole, I know that you and the Victims Commissioner, Vera Baird, are backing this call. Why does this need to be a standalone offence? Well, just to give you some context, one of the things that we routinely ask people who are subject to domestic abuse about is. And of those people who we were able to ask those questions, those risk assessment questions, 28% told us that they had been strangled in the past. So this is something that is happening in huge numbers. And we know that it's linked to serious harm or death. You have an eightfold increased risk of death

if strangulation is part of the abuse that you suffer. The government, though, Nicole, rejected the amendment earlier this year, saying it's already covered by existing law. Is it? Well, I would argue it's not. I mean, it is covered in that you could charge a common assault

and ABH in this way. But what we know in actuality is that that doesn't happen very much. And the reason it doesn't is because it's not a standalone charge. It's not something that police officers are particularly looking for, investigating, making sure that they collect evidence for. It is a challenge because obviously this kind of offence often won't leave a visible injury, although there's significant injuries, obviously, but it's not visible to the officer at the time, so it may not be noted. And then it starts the kind of ripple effect of being forgotten as part of the charge or it's not highlighted. So what we have is we have something that's happening in huge numbers, has an incredible impact in terms of the gravity of the offence, but it's not reflected in the criminal justice

system. It's not reflected in the charge. Sometimes it's not reflected literally at all. Sandra, what happened to you? So I was with my ex-partner for about three years, and he didn't get violent, physically violent, until our baby was born. But he strangled me six times on five occasions. And being strangled, it's absolutely terrifying. I mean, he's not trying to break a bone or bruise me. He's trying to stop me from breathing and, if anything, demonstrate that he controls whether I get to live

or not. But as the violence was escalating in frequency, I was getting more and more afraid that he would kill me. So I started secretly collecting evidence and opening up to support services like Women's Aid, who eventually helped me and my child escape to a woman's refuge. And it wasn't until we were safe in refuge that I reported him to the police. But the police officer told me that strangulation is only a common assault, which has a charging period that expires after six months. So we had run out of time to charge him for most of the strangulation by that time. And I mean, I had photos of the marks he'd left on my neck.

I had admissions via text messages. He had made admissions to a social worker who left a statement to the police. And I had a voice recording where he is admitting and he's also saying that it will happen again. And they still wouldn't charge the strangulation as ABH, which they could. And I had even given them evidence

that he had strangled his mother in the past and that it wasn't a new behavior. And I did a victim's right to review where I appealed twice to the CPS and I cited their own guidelines that at the time read that aggravating factors such as significant violence like strangulation and repeated assault on the same complainant could be charged as ABH, even where the injuries sustained are on the lower end of the scale. And they also have to consider public interest if a child is present. And in our case, the child was in either mine or his arms on almost all of the assaults. But he walked a free man.

And we had a family court proceeding and a two-day fact-find trial that found him guilty for all the assaults. And he was deemed too high risk for any direct contact with the child, even supervised. So we're safe, but we still live with protected details. And I was contacted by a new girlfriend and the police after she had made a Claire's Law request. And it was confirmed that he already has a new victim of domestic abuse. Nicole, one of the things you said in a statement published yesterday with Vera Baird. You say it's commonly used as a tool by perpetrators of domestic violence. What do you mean by that?

Well, I mean, you just heard so eloquently from Sandra that feeling of not being able to survive the attack. You know, it's got to be the most terrifying experience to not be able to have oxygen. You know, it's got to be the most terrifying experience to not be able to have oxygen. You know, it's a primal fear of any of us. And so that's a tactic used by perpetrators. Literally, I will show you how close I can bring you to death or that I will kill you. And that goes along with threats and the whole context of coercion and control. So it's extremely powerful. And yet we have a situation where we've just heard, we have

police who are not supported or trained or encouraged by law to really look into this to the extent that they should. I mean, there's a really, there's a great coroner's report from Anne-Marie Neild, her case where the coroner, you know, was referenced the fact that the non-fatal strangulation wasn't part of the police force's domestic abuse policy. And there was a lack of understanding of the issue among the officers involved. And I'm afraid that would be the case throughout the whole of England and Wales. And we have an opportunity to change that now. And I think the government should really grasp this opportunity.

But why are you raising it now as the bill is coming close to completion? How positive are you that it will be included? I think there's still time. And certainly there's a few changes to the bill that are needed it it is a landmark bill but it could be even better and there's certainly time um for ministers and for the bill committee to and and the lords to influence um last changes to the bill so if if listeners are interested if there's ever a window of opportunity to contact your MP about these issues, please do it now. Sandra, just one last question to you. I know people say that the physical and mental

repercussions can last for a very long time. How were you affected long term? I mean, I still have flashbacks. And, you know, I have a young, young child who's affected by it as well. And I think these are things that never go away. You know, you can be cooking and it just flashes in your mind or, you know, you're always going to be haunted by your experiences. And, you know, I've lived in I lived in refuges, women's refuges for quite a long time. And I've seen I've seen young children in the refuge strangling their toys because that's what daddy did to mummy. You know, no one should have to live with these things. And I think when they think, you know,

it's like Nicole said, statistics, you know, doesn't show that you're eight times more likely to get killed by a common assault. You are, however, eight times more likely to be killed if you've been strangled. So it needs to be its own offence that reflects the severity of that and the long-term effects.

Sandra, thank you so much for being with us this morning. And also, Nicole Jacobs, thank you very much indeed for being with us today. And if you do have experience of this, we would really like to hear from you. You can email us or, of course, you can tweet us. And if you don't want your name to be used, we will respect that. And by the way, if you need any help or advice, there are links to organisations on the Woman's Hour website.

Now, Lynn and Lucy is a new film about the lives of two best friends in a close-knit, working-class community in Essex. Roxanne Scrimshaw plays Lynne in her first role as an actor. Here, at a christening, she describes what the friendship has meant to them both. I've known Lucy since we was both 11. It was our first day at big school. I remember I was so scared because I got sent to take a note to the office.

I never did find the office. But in the empty corridors, I did find Lucy. Wow. It was seven years after that that I had my Lola. And for a while, whilst I was up to my elbows in that fizz, Lucy was being scraped from the club floors. Yay! So although it took a while, I'm thrilled that she is now a mum

and I get to be godmother to beautiful baby Harrison cheers but as the film progresses their friendship is harmed when Lucy played by Nicola Burley suffers a tragedy and incurs the disapproval of the community.

And I'm joined by Roxanne Scrimshaw. Roxanne, how would you describe Lynn, the character you play? She starts off, she's quite comfortable. She's a mum, a wife. She's got her best friends. She's got everything going that she's used to and that she knows and understands. There's nothing really exciting happening for her.

But as the film does progress, her personality sort of changes for the worst. Yeah, we don't want to give away what actually happens, do we, to spoil it for people who want to come and see it. But how would you describe the friendship? Is it something you've had experience of, having such a close friend who do everything together? Yeah.

Growing up, I had the best friends. We went to school together. We was literally inseparable until we had our children. That's when you sort of, you have to change. But previous to children, we would wake up in the morning, eat each other's houses, get ready, go to school, finish school, go back to someone's house, get changed, go back out. It was it was sort of like a relationship. This was your first ever acting role. How did you get the part?

I got it through Facebook. I see an advertisement on Facebook from casting director Lara Manwanian looking for two girls, and I just sort of responded to an email with my pictures saying, if you want me, call me. But didn't you have to be a little bit persuaded by your mother to go for it? Yeah, the first article I actually see on Facebook was just on our local community page, and I was like, oh, it's a bit scammy, just because I thought they wanted your email to spam you with loads of junk but then maybe like a week later my mum sent me a link from my local newspaper that they'd posted on Facebook

with the same article from Lara and so I was like okay it seems a little bit more legit now so that's when I actually sent my email. And how much of an ambition had it been to become an actor it was something I had never previously thought of at that point in my life when I first see the article it was a case of I knew there was more to life than what I was living like if I didn't change something or if something didn't change I'd be going through the same life cycle then my daughter would grow up and she'd probably meet someone get married have children get a dead-end job around the same area and it would just be a continuous cycle but acting had never ever crossed my mind before people like me we

don't act like I didn't go drama school I didn't have no previous knowledge of anything to do with it. But obviously people like you do act because you've actually won awards for it. But how did you find the whole process? Because as I understand it, they didn't even give you a script. Yeah. From the start until even now, the whole process has just been so amazing. Filming was absolutely amazing. And down to the script, because I was the only person on set who didn't have it, there was this huge secrecy around it. And so I would literally go in every day, not knowing what I was going into,

unless it was sort of like a big scene. I would get information maybe a day or two before, just so I couldn't get my head around it or learn lines if I needed to but other than that it was just it was just an overwhelming amazing experience that I enjoyed so much. What did you make of the depiction of young mothers because you are a young mother yourself? Yeah, I think it's when you have kids younger, it gives you more of a, for me personally, I always wanted kids young anyway. I didn't want to be going into my 30s and then starting out of a family because when I get to 30, I want to be living my best life still. But it kind of puts this betrayal on young mums, like you don't know a lot. All you know is changing nappies. Like even when it comes to parenting, people assume that you don't know what you're talking about or what you're doing because you are so young.

It's like, how could you possibly have these experiences or knowledge when you're only 17, 18? And so I think it is a challenging one, but for myself personally and so many people I know, when it comes to things like that, it doesn't matter how old you are. When you have a child, your life changes. Instinctively, you get these instincts that you never knew before that you could even acquire. And the film is set in a very close-knit community in Essex. I know you grew up in Dagenham. Yeah. in Essex I know you grew up in Dagenham yeah how accurate did you find the depiction of a community where everybody knows everybody else's business they make judgments of people if they do something they don't quite approve of how familiar was that it was spot on

it was literally spot on in the times of in say in terms of of how small and enclosed the area is, when I first responded to the iCall, I actually told them, like, I live at Robin Hood because that's the name of the little area that we live. There was a pub there, that's where the shops are, and that's where we'd all hang about. In my mind, I honestly believe that these casting directors, whoever I was sending the email to, knew where Robin Hood was.

I didn't realise how big the world was and how small that little place was. We had a hair salon, very, very similar. It's the case, if somebody does something, everybody wants to know, or most people already know, and then before you know it, you are the talk of the town. What was your response to people describing it as a working-class film? That I mind, it is what it is.

Like I am from a working class family. It was set for a working class environment. But I don't, I don't understand why everything has to be titled. It's like working class. It's like black ethnic minorities. Like we're just people. Like just because you come from a different background or you have a different like pay packet

or your skin tone is a different colour or you have children younger, you have children older, we're still all humans. Like we all majority go through the same life cycle. It's just some people have different experiences. Now, as I said, you have won awards for your performance as has the director. So where do you go now?

Oh, hopefully on to more amazing things. I don't want this experience to stop. Like if I could do it all over again a million times, I wouldn't even bat an eyelid. So hopefully from this, there'll be more and then more walls I want an Oscar I've got my sights set high what did your mother make of the film I loved it and my mum really did like it even a few weeks ago she was still asking me can't you ask Faisal like what happens next and stuff like that without giving too much away. But she's still wanting answers. I can't even give her. Roxanne, I fully expect at the Oscars,

your mother will be there in the audience listening to you give your speech. Thank you so much for being with us this morning, Roxanne Scrimshaw. And I will just mention the film is available on BFI player from today, or you can find it through Amazon Prime or Apple Television, and it'll be released on other digital platforms later in the year. Thank you very much, Roxanne, and the very best of luck. Now still to come in today's programme, gender bias in the workplaces, more women rise to senior management positions. What difference has being in the room actually made? And the serial, the fourth episode of Six Suspects. Now, Professor Linda Scott is the

author of The Double X Economy, The Epic Potential of Empowering Women. She describes how women are excluded from the global economy in both the developed and the developing world and claims wealth would be £160 trillion higher if the gender pay gap were closed. Well, she joins us from Rhode Island in America. Linda, you begin the book by describing your arrival in Accra in Ghana and how it changed your thinking as an economist. What actually happened? What did you see? I had arrived that afternoon to begin a test from a grant I had at the University of Oxford that was going to see whether or not providing free sanitary pads

would keep girls in school longer, which is known to bring growth in a fairly strong way to developing economies. That night, a friend took me down to an area in Accra where runaway girls congregated at night. And these girls, he told me, had run away from the villages, trying to escape a common practice of essentially selling girls into marriage, which resulted in their being essentially subject to a form of slavery. I was astounded at the numbers of them. And of course, when they ran to the cities, they only became more vulnerable to abuse, to rape, to prostitution, and to the global slave trade. And what changed my view of my work that night was

that I understood in a very sort of basic way that including women better in the global economy would not only add to prosperity, but would help us to avoid some of the costliest tragedies in the world. So why have you called it the double X economy? What exactly do you mean by that? We now know from international data sets that are relatively new that economic inequality marks the female population of every nation in a very distinctive pattern. All over the world, the barriers women face reach well beyond work and salary to include property ownership, capital, access to markets.

These impediments, combined with the usual cultural constraints imposed on women's reproductive vulnerability, the threat of violence, forms a shadow economy that is unique to females. And I call this the double X economy. Now, education is clearly one of the ways that women are excluded. Land ownership is also important. And you introduced us to a widow called Agnes in Uganda. What happened to her? Agnes was, I met her actually on a research trip just by chance. And she was the child of a very prosperous family and had been well educated.

And she married a man with similar background. But he died early. And according to Ugandan custom, Agnes could not inherit his land. And so it passed to his brothers. And then her own father died. And so it passed to his brothers. And then her own father died. And that land passed to her brother. And it left her with no way to support herself because this was an agricultural area. And her poverty was just astonishing. What I did was then to go on and research how big this problem was in the world. And I found it was massive.

It was literally all over the world and had been part of history for hundreds and hundreds of years. But what impact does lack of land ownership have in developed countries, say, like Britain? Yes. The lack of land ownership in Britain is actually greater than the global average. Women only own 13.7% of land in Britain, and the average in the world is 18%. What it is the result of coverture, a principle of common law that has been in Britain since

before written laws, and Britain during its colonial experience exported it all over the world. What happens is that because men have owned 80% of the world's land, it has rolled up into their controlling 80% of the world's capital. And we see the impact even today in women's greater vulnerability, their lower access to capital, their exclusion from the economy. It has huge roll-on effects. What did you learn about markets and capital from a woman who was trying to sell bananas in Kenya? I had gone down, I had been tipped off by locals that I could go to a small sort of a gully in a small town where I was

working and see how the big trucks came in from the city and bought in volumes from the men. I was concerned that the women I was setting had no access to such things. And when I was down there, I saw this tragic image of this woman with a baby strapped on her front and a huge bunch of bananas on her back. And she was just wandering from truck to truck, totally mystified by the transactions she was seeing among the men and completely unable even to break into the conversations. And this gave me an insight, the insight, that women are excluded by more than just employment, that this is a 360-degree exclusion, and that women contend with this exclusion that's unequal,

but as not merely unequal outcomes. We were talking earlier about domestic violence and the bill that is going through the Parliament here, but at what cost does violence against women pose to the global economy? Well, obviously, you can't ever put a price tag on the kind of suffering that we've just heard about. But you can look at other costs that are associated with domestic attacks that allow you to quantify what it costs in a economy. You can look at police visits, the cost of hospital visits, lost work days, and so on. And it is absolutely true

that domestic attacks continue far into the future because of what happens with children, as was mentioned. And this means it has a long-term economic impact. In 2014, the Copenhagen Consensus Center made an estimate that intimate partner violence against women costs the global economy $4.4 trillion annually. big that is, that's about the same percent, 5% of GDP that nations around the world usually spend on primary education. And it's 30 times what the world spends on international aid. So it's huge. Why do those who manage the world economy at the highest level fail to see things through this female lens? I was really shocked when I started going to some of these meetings. These men have been trained, and it is men, who are the financial ministers of the countries and as well as the economists who advise them, have grown up in a culture in the universities that really demeans and excludes women. And as a result, they are taught just not to look at the women's economy.

And since these people play such a huge role in economic planning, it becomes very hard for the XX economy to win a place on the global agenda. So what needs to be put in place to make changes when even at grassroots level, reading your book, women are just excluded from the table? Yes, one of the things that I would really like to see put in place is something like the G7 or AIPAC that focuses specifically on women and can send delegates to all these

meetings so that women for the first time will have a seat at the table of global governance. But the book itself is a call to action to everyone to join an already existing movement to economically empower women. And there's something for every individual to do, including just helping to raise awareness that can get to world leaders about this huge world economy that's being totally ignored. But what happened when you tried to get a group of men in a village to invite the women to come and join them in their discussions? And this is grassroots level level not the highest level right um you see the same kind of thing is what you see um the um the incident that you're talking about was we were trying to get um approval from village elders to go into this um experiment we were talking about i was talking about with the sanitary pads and we went into this one village

and the elders were gathered under a tree, and we sat down to talk to them and realized there were no women there. And we asked, could we include the women? And they thought it was weird that we wanted to ask that, but said sure. And the women then congregated under another tree where they couldn't hear us, couldn't talk to us, nor were we to them. So we said, wait a minute, this really is a women's issue. Can they not come under the tree? And so they said, well,

okay, though they again thought it was very odd. And we invited them, you know, into the space where we were talking. And the really funny thing was that when we talked, started talking about the actual project, these men were absolutely horrified. You could see it on their faces, their eyes just sort of turning glassy and this expression like, let me out of here. And so fortunately, we were finally able to say, could we possibly meet with the women alone? And that's when we did our business. Well, Professor Linda Scott, please don't go away because we would like you to join into the next discussion. We've generally assumed that bias against women at work would change, as Linda suggests,

when women are sitting around the tables where decisions are made in equal numbers. We know that we now have a record number of women in employment and slowly but surely they've been making their way into positions of senior management or into professions which have traditionally been dominated by men. But has being in the room made much of a difference? Or is gender bias still alive and well? Linda stays with us. Karina White works in sports marketing.

Michelle Ryan is Professor of Social and Organisational Psychology at the University of Exeter. Now, Michelle, I know you did a study of vets. Why did you choose vets for your study? Well, the veterinary profession is really interesting because it was a profession that was incredibly male dominated in the 60s and 70s. But more recently, women are much better represented. In fact, one might say they're overrepresented. More than 50% of vets are women. And if you look at veterinary school, actually, it's up to 80% of students are vets. So it's a really interesting case where we've seen lots of change. So what did you find when your investigation

asked senior staff to look at a performance review. How did you do it? Yeah, what we did was we asked real vets with managerial experience to look at a mock-up of a performance review. So we had one performance review which we either said was from Elizabeth, a female vet, or Mark, a male vet. And we asked them to evaluate this person on a range of dimensions. Now, one of the key things that we did was we asked these managers whether

they thought that gender discrimination was still a problem in the profession. And what we found is those vets who thought that gender discrimination was no longer a problem were actually the ones that discriminated against Elizabeth. So they were less likely to say that she was competent compared to Mark. They were recommended a lower salary for Elizabeth compared to Mark. And they were much less likely to offer opportunities, sort of developmental opportunities in the future as well. What was their response when you revealed that you'd duped them into thinking Elizabeths were necessarily female? Yeah, I mean, I think this is an interesting thing. I mean, most people would say, and these are people that said, oh, it's not a problem. Discrimination is not a problem. But actually, this cue actually showed that it is something there. So they would often

say, well, it wasn't because she was female. It was because of these things that I read in the performance review. But what was really clear is the performance review was identical across the way. So there is something subtle about this. In no way are they saying, oh, I did that because she's a woman. But there's something subtle behind there that says we should pay Elizabeth less or give her less opportunity. Karina, I know you've worked with football players. What's been the experience of working in what continues to be a male dominated sector? When I first started working in football, I remember going to a meeting with the chairman of a football club and my boss couldn't make the meeting so I went in his place and the player wanted to leave the club wanted

him to stay and I walked into the room and the chairman said asked where my boss was and I said he's not here I'm here and he said I don't want to I've got no business discussing grown men business with a female and that really floored me at the time and I think that was probably a turning point in my career for me because I remembered how it made me feel and I didn't want to feel like that again so from then I made sure that I tried to assert myself in meetings sitting in the middle of a room or sitting in the middle of the table so that I'm not left on the edge or on the outside. What have you made of the findings

of Michelle's study? They're not surprising to me at all. You know, we have unconscious biases that we're aware of in the workplace that doesn't just exist in gender, but across ethnicity and race also. So I think it definitely doesn't surprise me at all. And I think more needs to be done to try and eliminate that. Linda, if I can bring you in again here, you write about something called the stereotype threat. What is that? The stereotype is one of the most robust findings in social science. And what it shows is that if there are stereotypes about gender, and actually it applies to race as well, being articulated in the workplace or in a school, in a testing site, it will, in fact, reduce the performance of the women as opposed to the men,

just because hearing the stereotype makes the women have to set aside cognitive space in order to resist it. And that, in turn, leaves them less room to do what they need to do. And it's a very, very well demonstrated phenomenon. Michelle, we've had an email from a young man called Ben, who asked about whether it might work in the other direction, the bias might work in the other direction. He's going to be a speech therapist, dominated by women. What might he find? Will there be bias against him because he's a man? I think this is a really interesting question. And we certainly see in professions where that are female dominated, like nursing or speech therapy, where Ben is, is that we don't necessarily see an easy flip. And that's because partly to do with the stereotypes that Linda's talking about as well,

because things around success and hard work and leadership, for example, are still very male dominated. So what we find is that men that go into nursing or speech therapy actually seem to be rather than discriminated against in that area, seem to be accelerated through their careers. And we call this the glass escalator. So he's going to go up the glass escalator and become a very senior speech therapist, is he? He could very well do. What benefits, Karina, have there been as a woman working in sport?

Have there been any benefits to it? I think having more women work in the sports uh side of sorry the business side of sports has its benefits in terms of we have been front and center of pushing for more recognition in women's sports so you know there's an amazing organization called women in football and they have they they were pivotal in the Women's Super League becoming an actual league and becoming a professional league. So I think, you know, having women within the workplace and within sports pushes this narrative where we can push for things that affect us as women and as females, especially within women's sports. So for example, I know with

Chelsea Football Club, their women's team, they take into consideration when they're doing training, they take into consideration if it's that time of the month for the players, if they're going to be on their period, because all of those things affect their training capability. And I think if you had a man that might have been, you know, their coach or their manager, would he be able to take those things into consideration? Would he know, you know become allies to other women and men need to become our allies as well and push for greater gender diversity within these industries that have been traditionally very male middle class. Michelle what do you reckon can be done I know that there's a lot of unconscious bias training now how helpful is it?, I think it's helpful in some ways,

in that it demonstrates that diversity and inclusion is valued by the organization. But there's a lot of evidence that shows that actually it doesn't work in that it doesn't change unconscious bias. So it doesn't reduce unconscious bias. It doesn't actually reduce bias overall as well. So organizations that bring in unconscious bias training aren't more likely to have women or people from ethnic minority backgrounds as well. I think even more important is that organizations that have these sort of diversity initiatives, actually, there's evidence that shows that this might actually suppress discussions around discrimination. So if there's diversity initiatives, women are less likely to report harassment because they think, oh, well, maybe it isn't harassment. We've got these diversity initiatives. It must just be something interpersonal. And they're less likely to sort of label issues of discrimination as such. So I think while the idea of it is good, it can sometimes be a tick box exercise and at worst, it can actually set things back.

Linda, you've got a whole chapter in the book on the failure of equal pay in the UK. What do you put that down to? There are a number of things that were written into the law back in 1970 that really should be reconsidered, one of which is, in fact, the doctrine of positive discrimination. It doesn't recognize that in the real here and now, men already have advantages that are long built into the economy. And that they use those advantages, just as we've been discussing, to hold women down. That it is not an equal playing field in any way, shape or form. And that you probably will never close that gap unless you face up to that reality. I think that's the number one thing. I think also the enforcement procedures

against the, when a complainant wants to make a sex discrimination lawsuit, it's so very expensive that it makes equal pay and equality generally in the economy out of reach for most British women. Michelle, what about quotas and some form of positive action or discrimination? Yeah, I mean, I know quotas aren't a very popular solution. I mean, there's a lot of resistance against these and there's reasons for that. But actually, the research shows that this is one of the true ways where you actually get change and change at a pace that is reasonable, I think. So if you look at places in Scandinavia, for example, that put quotas in place, they actually work. Now, there's a lot of resistance on this in that it feels like tokenism. It feels like discrimination.

And I guess my response to that is that at the moment we're discriminating against women or ethnic minority people. So it's not fair now. So people say well bringing in quotas isn't fair but at least it's something that brings things in to try and level the playing field and what we see is that over time that tends to even itself out as a whole. So where there are quotas while there might be an initial reluctance there then comes with that afterwards a change in the views of women or of ethnic minority people. And so you bring with it a cultural change as well. I was talking to Professor Michelle Ryan, Karina White, and Professor Linda Scott. We have had a phenomenal response to the discussion about non-fatal strangling and how it should be represented in the domestic abuse bill. I won't use any names of the people who've emailed us because I don't think

it's fair, but the first one says, I was strangled by my ex-husband who breached a court undertaking and forced his way into my flat. Women's Aid put me back together with much counselling help, humpty-dumpty back on the wall, but very broken. It's a life sentence. It never really ends. Always high alert. I had no idea that the most dangerous time is when you finally try to escape. He told everyone I was mad. The second one says strangling

seems to take an age when you're the one being strangled. An expert told me that when he has his hands around your neck, the next step is the morgue. Now, some years later, my voice has been affected by it, the psychological effects manifest in PTSD and other conditions. It's not simply the act, but the aftermath. Goodness only knows how many women's lives have been blighted by it, and they live with the consequences every day. Non-fatal strangling must be included in the domestic violence bill. This one says, I was in an abusive relationship when I was 21, having just emigrated to a new country. On one occasion, I was strangled and suffocated and thought I was going to die. The point I would like to make is that even now, when I'm in my 70s,

the effect of this still has an impact. I have difficulty with various dental treatments. When I have a general anaesthetic, I still struggle with losing consciousness and have flashbacks when I come round, and I cannot bear anyone touching the front of my neck. The long-term impact of violence like this has had a profound effect on my life. I now know it will always be with me and I have to tell you that that's only three of the many, many emails that we received on this subject. On the question of women being involved in the decision-making process,

this one from Mary said, a good friend of mine in Zimbabwe set up a water development project. He'd already seen many huge international expensive projects fail and concluded that a major issue was lack of involvement of women. He started each project by getting the women of the community together and seeking their advice and needs on water. Not a single one of the projects has failed. The pumps are often maintained by a woman who's been trained for the task. Any community refusing to include women in the decision-making is passed over until they are included.

A change of heart can take up to two years. This one who specifically asked me not to use her name says, During my first PhD interview, I was asked, What's your greatest achievement? And don't say getting a boyfriend. And when attending a How to Get Published in Science, was told not to put down a female name on my manuscript in 2016. I truly hope this will change in the future, and more discussions like this will help.

Someone else who doesn't want her name used says, Hi, I'm a newly qualified teacher, qualified last June, and started on the first pay grade, just under £25,000 per year. I found out recently that two male counterparts started on the third pay grade, over £29,000 per year. I spoke to the head teacher, but to no avail. And Margaret says, I wondered whether you were aware of the disgraceful performance in Parliament yesterday when women in the beauty industry were openly mocked. Many beauty therapists are women whose customers are also women. They're highly trained and many are small business owners,

generating millions into our economy. Yet yesterday, men in suits found it necessary to make fun of them in a parliamentary debate. Equality for women will never happen whilst we still allow this sort of behaviour. I despair. And finally, Leslie says, I'm a senior speech and language therapist of some 30 years experience. I wanted to reiterate one of your contributors' suggestions that men working in a female-dominated profession tend to be at an advantage. I have found that male colleagues are frequently treated with more deference and seen as more knowledgeable, indeed sometimes assumed to be a doctor. They do indeed tend to become more senior than female counterparts more quickly.

Well, thank you for all your contributions to today's podcast. Tomorrow I'll be here, usual time, just after 10, and I'll be talking to the editor-in-chief of Empire magazine, Terry White, about her memoir and how alcohol and childhood trauma derailed her while she was doing a dream job in New York. Join me tomorrow, three minutes past 10. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.