Woman's Hour - The future of embryo research, Ofsted inspections, British Gymnastics' complaints procedure

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Leading scientists are calling for a change in the law to help IVF patients donate unused embryos to biomedical research after a collapse in donations over the past 15 years. Emma Barnett talks to Professor of Reproductive Physiology at Cambridge University Kathy Niakan and Clare Ettinghausen from the UK's fertility regulator, the HFEA.The new play Glacier is a dark and poignant festive comedy. It follows three women who meet while wild swimming in their local lake one Christmas. They form an unofficial tradition, meeting each year to go for a swim and escape. Escape their responsibilities, life’s stresses, and maybe most of all – their families. We hear from playwright, comedian and podcaster Alison Spittle, and actor Sophie Steer, who stars in the show.We take another look at the world of gymnastics following on from last year's damning Whyte review with labelled the British Gymanstics as "inept and dysfunctional". Since that time, not one complaint of abuse has been upheld by British Gymnastics’ Independent Complaints Process – with every single case over the past three years collapsing. We talk to Claire Heafford from Gymnasts 4 Change about their campaign for a new procedures. As two teaching unions call for a pause in Ofsted inspections following the death of head teacher Ruth Perry, we talk to Paul Whiteman, the General Secretary of the teaching union the National Association of Head Teachers.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We're turning our attention today to a story we have been following closely, the way schools are inspected and the stress that that process can cause on some individual teachers and heads. Two school unions are calling for Ofsted inspections to be paused immediately following the outcome of the inquest into the death of the headteacher, Ruth Perry. The Association of School and College Leaders and the National Association of Headteachers

have issued a joint statement asking to allow time for meaningful action to be taken. This request comes three days after a coroner found an Ofsted inspection last year had contributed to the suicide of Mrs Perry, the first time Ofsted has been listed as a contributing factor in the death of a headteacher. Her school in Reading was downgraded from outstanding to inadequate due to safeguarding concerns in November last year.

Ofsted's chief inspector Inspector Amanda Spielman has apologised for the distress that the inspection caused and said this week's inspections would be delayed by a day and several other changes would be made to reduce the pressure felt by school leaders. And yet, in an interview on this programme a couple of weeks ago, the Chief Inspector said that there was no need to do away with the one word verdicts on schools when they say outstanding or inadequate that can cause so much stress. And she talked of Ruth Perry's death being used as a pivot to try and discredit what Ofsted does. I wanted to give you the opportunity today to answer this. When you hear that two heads, unions have come together to call for a

pause in inspections from Ofsted, what do you think needs to change about the way we monitor our schools? How should we be doing it? Or are you fine with it as it is, as someone who perhaps uses these reports as a parent or someone connected to schools? What is your view

on this? Do get in touch. This is a very difficult debate for some. It's something people feel incredibly passionate about, very close to. It may be something that's in your past and you still have a view you wish to share. The number is 84844. That's the number to text.

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. How should we be assessing and inspecting and grading our schools? You can email me through the Woman's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Watch those data charges. You might want to use Wi-Fi and get in touch now

and I'll make sure if I can, I'll read aloud your view, your take, your experience on this morning's programme. Also on today's programme, a new funny festive play on female friendship and some cold water swimming's included there, which is important to think about when we're listening to Dr Michael Mosley and his take on being cold here on Radio 4.

And we try to find out what's going on at British Gymnastics. All that to come and more. But two teachers' unions are calling for an immediate pause to Ofsted inspections following that coroner's ruling that an inspection contributed to headteacher Ruth Perry's suicide in January of this year. The Association of School and College Leaders and the National Association of Headteachers issued a joint statement asking to allow time for meaningful action to be taken. Ahead of the Ruth Perry inquest, I spoke to the outgoing head of Ofsted, Amanda Spielman, who commented on the potential impact that the case had had on Ofsted's reputation. There was a very sad case in the spring which has been used as a pivot to try and discredit what we do. The quality of what we do and the quality of what we do underneath

has been solid for years. We have really strong feedback on our inspection framework. We know post-COVID, there was a very clear message from the sector that they wanted to keep that framework, that it's as good as inspection

has ever been. People are really positive about it. So somehow getting to a positive message about inspection in the sector is really, really important. Are you talking about the death of the primary head teacher Ruth Perry? Yes, which I can't talk about specifically. No, no. But if I can just remind our listeners, if you don't mind, the primary head teacher Ruth Perry died in January ahead of the release of a report that downgraded her school in Berkshire from outstanding to inadequate from the top to the bottom of the scale. There were reports in the media at the time she took her own life.

Ruth Perry's sister, Professor Julia Walters, has since said the injustice of the one word judgment destroyed Ruth's career, her world and her sense of self. The inquest starts next week. We, of course, don't want to prejudice that legal process by talking about the specifics. But you did raise this and you say you feel it's being used in some way to discredit your organisation. By whom? It's very clear there's been a tremendous amount of media coverage and it's very hard to get people to understand that firstly we inspect and report in exactly the same way as I've said for all inspectorates. There is nothing about what we do that is out of line that treats schools particularly harshly. We're part of that wider and really important framework of public accountability for public services. Parents do

need to know what's happening in their school. They want the reassurance if it's going well. And if it's not going well, they want to know that that's recognised and the action is being taken. So it is a tough job, but somebody does have to do it. And that's us. That was, that was listening, you were listening there to Amanda Spielman, the outgoing head of Ofsted in an interview a couple of weeks ago here on this programme. On Friday, we had Ruth Perry's sister, Professor Julia Waters, on the programme, and she described how she reacted to hearing what Amanda Spielman had to say here on Woman's Hour, was the first time that I have actually screamed.

I have a counsellor, I have a grief counsellor who said, if you need to scream, and I screamed, and I screamed loud and long. And it wasn't, you know, expletive laden outburst at the crass insensitivity of what she did. It felt visceral. It felt painful. It was such a kick in the guts. And just a few days before the inquest starts and here she is again in public media casting aspersions on me, on those like me who can see there's something wrong with the inspection system, suggesting that Ruth's death's being used as a pivot to discredit Ofsted. I mean, it's outrageous. Professor Julia Waters there, Ruth Perry's sister. I'm joined now by Paul Whiteman

the General Secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers Good morning Good morning Tell us what you're calling for and what changes you want to see Well we're calling for an immediate pause in inspection there's a lot of pressure in the system right now and an awful lot of fear in the system

that needs to be removed so we don't have another tragedy. Then what we need to do is to sit down with the inspectorate and government and begin to work on immediate things that we can do so that people can see that inspection will be proportionate and fair and have some empathy with the profession and then a much longer term review of what inspection looks like. So it's no longer an act of compliance but actually truly can reflect the school's whole performance and celebrate its successes as well as some of its areas that need to improve we were hearing from amanda spielman then it was a much longer interview people can hear it in full and catch up on on bbc sounds but we were hearing there that parents need to know they need to know what's going on in schools and we did get some messages on the day

that she was on the program saying that they that individuals parents listening had no issue with single word verdicts for instance and they found them useful. So the profession absolutely welcomes a proportionate inspection system I think it's very valuable to understand where their school stands and to make sure that there is quality in the system so no one's arguing against inspection it's the way it's carried out right now it is commonly referred to as brutal and we can see from the tragedy the impact that it has on school leaders when we survey our members it's the biggest stressor in their lives and the reason why many are leaving will not continue in the profession and it's the thing that drives workload the most and the health

impacts it has are tremendous now i know that doesn't deal with your point about single word judgment but it's the single word judgment for the profession that doesn't describe the breadth of the school. So for example in Cavish's case it was a really good school but for one thing that was more administrative than anything else and that impact led to the tragedy. So whether we retain one word judgments we don't think we should but that's part of the debate that we need to have to arrive at a system that serves everybody well. But right now, this is damaging and dangerous. It's also worth noting, I mean,

just because you mentioned about Ruth Perry's school, that that then did come back up in the grading. It has come back up since. But also this is the first time that an inspection, a school inspection has been listed as a link here in a death. It is not something that is thankfully common, however tragic and awful this particular individual case is. So again, to ask you a question that is being asked, what about the idea that this is something that isn't necessarily broken but we we now know

a bit more about how it affects those why change the whole system well we were campaigning for change as long as 20 as far back as 2018 and our colleagues in ascl have been campaigning alongside us as well we've both produced reports that detail the damage done remember if you're damaging school leaders and damaging teachers they're not going to be as effective on behalf of children in school as they should be. So that's why it needs to change. And actually, the judgments don't tell us an awful lot about school. They don't really dig deep into the school.

And they hold perverse incentives so that people comply with the Austin inspection, rather than use their professionalism and agency to make sure their school is the best it can be. But I'd say this, in terms of going back to 2018, the pressure and the damage has been building and we've been bringing evidence of that throughout the whole period, both to the inspectorate and to government. And that clip you played of the chief inspector is demonstrable of the arrogance that we've come up against throughout that whole period, a refusal to listen, a refusal to accept the evidence that we put forward on behalf of the

profession. Now, ASCO and us have about 59,500 members between us across 24,000 schools. So we are truly representative of the profession. And to reject our claims because they're inconvenient or politically inconvenient because of the damage being done is truly, truly woeful. And the government now has to sit down with representatives of the profession and change the system. But it has to serve, and I agree, parents, it has to serve the profession and it has to serve the government too. How do you think you can do that? Because there have been some changes. Amanda Spillman talked about some of them in light of this, and you obviously don't feel that they've gone far enough. How do you think you can do both, after the tragedy became clear and it took some weeks for that to take place after the tragedy became clear. There was an absolute rejection at the start that there was anything wrong with the inspection at all and any need

to change and we've seen that narrative right up until the coroner spoke last week. But what we need to do, I mean we need to debate the one word judgment and even if we change that temporarily until we can establish some confidence back in the system, that's going to be helpful. We need to talk about the interventions that follow. So school leaders, if their judgment goes into one of those categories that is less than good, they worry about losing their job immediately, having no time to put things right whatsoever, having their school taken over by an academy without time to put things right again. But when you listen to the evidence that Ruth was talking about, they even worry about these one-word judgments are so powerful, they even worry about diminishing house prices in the area because of that one-word judgment and assessment of their

performance as a school leader. That's a burden of pressure and responsibility that nobody should carry. And we have to change that in the short term and then arrive at a system that serves us all in the longer term. Do you know what that system looks like? That's what I'm trying to get to. What, from your perspective, does it mean? Yes. So, you know, talking about things like balanced report cards. Now, these aren't necessarily easy. There's going to be difficulties in all inspection systems but but coming to a conclusion that says this school is safe this school is good in the following areas this school needs improvement in other areas will give parents an idea of where the school's strong where it's working to improve but also that their

children are safe and happy in that school as well and that's what parents tell us when we talk to representative bodies like parent kind they tell us actually that their surveys tell them that the current inspections aren't used as claimed and actually a different system needs to take place. We're getting a lot of messages on this and just before I come to those, I've got a statement here from the Department for Education. We contacted the Department for Education, I should say, to invite a minister on the programme. We had no one, they had no one available to speak to us. But in this statement we've got here, let me read this. Ruth Perry's death was heartbreaking.

The coroner's findings make clear that lessons need to be learned. Following the inquest, it's right that Ofsted is giving schools the choice to defer inspections until January as an extension of their existing deferrals policy. What do you make to that? And have you had anything more from the Department for Education since the coroner came back? The Department for Education or Ofsted have not picked up the phone to either Geoff Barton and Askel or I to talk about these changes or to give reassurance to our members. And that's really telling. When they talk about deferring until after Christmas,

what a way to ruin Christmas, to know actually that that short break that you get from the pressure, you're actually going to be going into school over that break because you know you've got an inspection coming first in the middle of the year. It's that complete lack of understanding from the inspectorate about the impact that they have on schools and school leaders. And that's why they need to talk to us, representatives of those school leaders,

to come to the right conclusions. So since the coroner's report, you've had no contact with the Department for Education? Not on this subject. Or with Ofsec? Not on this subject. Not on this subject at all. And any response yesterday, I believe, is when you first put this out for a call to immediate pause for inspections. Anything since then? Absolutely nothing.

The only thing we've had is a private conversation with the incoming chief inspector and we're making arrangements to meet him formally in his first week. And we see that as a promising move, but that's all we've had so far. We've got some messages pointing out, which I did a lot when we were talking to Amanda Spillman.

This is the inspection system in England. There are different ones across the United Kingdom that will have their specifics as well. So I do want to say that. Hazel's written in just to say, and I wanted to put this to you because we've had lots of comments. I worry about the effects

on children of their schools being judged inadequate. I worry about how children have been affected by the, in brackets here, avoidable death by suicide of their own head teacher and then the trauma

that this has caused them. That's a real safeguarding issue. I wanted to give you the chance to talk as the General Secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers about the impact, Paul, this has had, Ruth Perry's death has had. Well, it's the impact leading up to inspection and the impact afterwards so just just to answer the point from your the listener there and schools are run now to comply with the needs of inspection rather than making decisions about what's good for the pupils in them and that leaves lacunas and and things that aren't done that should be done and then after inspection if it does go into inadequate or or a category that isn't what the school desired or thought was

worthwhile, then there's a whole period that the leadership team and teachers have to go through. Now they work very, very hard to protect pupils from that and I very much hope that pupils don't see that and feel the pressure of that. I think it's a very, very difficult thing to achieve. In terms of the wider narrative about what's gone on, I think we do have to be very careful. I think we have been careful about the details of what's gone on, I think we do have to be very careful. And I think we have been careful about the details of what happened to Ruth. But I think I want to pay tribute to the dignity and determination of Julia Waters and her family, because without having the determination to bring this forward, actually, I don't think we'd be any further forward in the debate.

Excuse me. And all of that danger and damage to children would be continuing now paul wyman thank you very much the general secretary of the national association of head teachers another message here we need to reform the whole school inspection system change the whole short notice given with a visit from inspectors for a short time scale involve teachers and parents in the redesign we have great examples of continuing assessment in other disciplines. Another listener pointing out that this model is only for England. We have a different approach in Wales and have replaced the single overall grade. Another saying, I was so moved by hearing Julia Waters on Woman's Hour,

how sad it is that it takes the death of a dedicated headteacher to finally bring to the fore Ofsted and often brutal inspections. Every teacher and everyone I know who knows a teacher is aware of the distress and worry inspections cause schools. And Sue says Ofsted needs reform. Primary schools, especially small ones with mixed year classes where staff lead multiple subjects, should be inspected by leaders with knowledge of their context, not secondary leaders. And so it continues. Please keep your messages coming in. And just one more here that just popped in. I'm married to a working teacher who's worked more than 30 years. I don't know of any teachers who object to constructive forward-looking inspections. In the past, local authority would be working with

schools over time, getting to know the school and drive improvement. Strong opinions on this that I'd like to hear from you about. Do keep getting in touch. But now we turn our attention to the world of gymnastics. Last year, a highly damning review was published into the abusive practices suffered by some gymnasts at the hands of some coaches in the sport. It found that of 400 submissions,

more than 40% described physically abusive behaviour, including physical chastisement, inappropriate training on injury, overstretching to the point of distress, as well as withholding food, water and access to the toilet. We recently reported that British Gymnastics had issued new rules, including banning coaches from weighing gymnasts, a direction to allow toilet and hydration breaks under new safe sport rules. Since that time, not one complaint of abuse has been upheld by British Gymnastics' independent complaints process, with every single case over the past three years collapsing.

So not a single complaint has been upheld. Now the campaign group Gymnasts for Change has written an open letter to British Gymnastics, the organisation, calling for an immediate suspension of its complaints procedures, saying whistleblowers haven't been protected and gymnasts have been left traumatised by the process while abusive coaches remain in the sport. We're joining me now in the studio, Claire Heaford, the co-founder of Gymnasts for Change, who I should say created her group after her own experiences of abuse as a former elite gymnast. And I'll also be talking to Kat Craig in a moment, a human rights lawyer specialising in sports who's worked with hundreds of victims and survivors of sports abuse around the world. Claire, I'll start with you. Good morning.

Good morning. Every single case has collapsed. Every case that involves Gymnasts for Change members that we are aware of has collapsed. Yes, and that is despite they're now being in place really great investigation processes so the independent complaints process which was set up by british gymnastics and is overseen by british gymnastics um the they they handed out the administration of that process to Sports Resolution and the independent person, Christopher Quinlan Casey. And the Sports Resolutions got on board

two amazing investigators who have done an incredible job on the investigations. So everyone that's been involved in these processes knows their case has now been investigated. The issue is that they are falling apart at panel. And what does that mean? So once it's got to a certain level, what's happening? We don't know entirely, but we have some idea based on the experiences of our members who've been involved in these panel processes. of the ICP protocols which state that gymnasts should be allowed to be accommodated and give

evidence in a way that is trauma-informed and allows them to participate. But we've not been made aware of any gymnasts with complaints who've been asked if they would like to be accommodated and given an opportunity to contribute to panels without having to go into the room with the coach that coercively controlled them for up to 10 years. We've got witnesses who've not been consulted about the handling of their complaint or given an opportunity to have a say in how their case has been handled. Witnesses and complainants who have not been invited to give testimony and in fact are not even aware of when the panels are taking place at all. Crucial evidence from the civil claims, many of the people involved in these independent complaints processes also have civil claims separately against the coaches,

but the evidence that is contained within the civil claims has not been used within the independent complaints process due to a lack of coordination between British Gymnastics and the lawyers and that may be involving the insurers. We have a situation where the coaches have been allowed to employ their own legal representation so they're able to choose from senior lawyers that they think are going to be able to represent their case as well but because these are not formal legal procedures, the gymnasts involved haven't been allowed to get their own legal representation. And after a big fight, we now have a situation where those gymnasts are

being given legal representation, but it's by junior pro bono barristers. There's been character assassinations of vulnerable gymnasts and their families where they've had no opportunity to respond. And complainants haven't been informed of the outcomes at the same time that the coaches have been. So even some coaches, when they've been found to have not done anything wrong, have taken social media to gloat. And so just because there's a range of issues that largely seem about process and the way that this is or isn't working this is a process issue and we've spent the last few months at gymnasts for change sending a series of emails to try to get a handle on who oversees this process who designed the process and who can make amendments to the process sports resolution and christopher quinlan say this is a process that

was set up by bg and is overseen by BG. British Gymnastics. British Gymnastics. And that all questions relating to the processes must be directed to BG. But when we email BG and we ask them questions, they say that it's not for them. It's an independent process. They have no oversight. It's entirely run by Christopher Quinlan and Sports Resolutions.

That's why we've written this open letter and we're calling for a roundtable meeting to get all parties to the IPC in one room so they can hash this out. The IPC? It's the independent complaints process that was set up by BG to handle the complaints that came forward to Anne White during the White Review. And this was the review that I mentioned looking into what had been going on. But you don't sound like you've got faith in the independence of that body either yeah I mean let's you getting the people together that you you say are failing to see if they can do a better job that's right

let's look at the word independence so when it comes to these kinds of sports processes um the organizations the national governing bodies UK Sport love to use this word independent. But let's try replacing the word independent with accountable. And then we can see what a farce it is. This process is not accountable. Nobody has oversight of it except for British Gymnastics, apparently. And that's why one of the things we're calling for is for UK Sport to have now oversight of a reformed process once a roundtable discussion has taken place. You're using quite rightly lots of acronyms and titles and just to say when you say UK Sport you mean the body UK Sport. I mean the body because it's hard when

you're talking on the radio to always necessarily denote that. UK Sport and Sport England have given us this joint statement which say while Sport England and UK Sport have no oversight or supervisory role in British gymnastics' independent complaints process, which was necessarily separate to the White Review, we'll consider the detail of your letter and we'll respond to Gymnasts for Change as soon as possible. And there's a statement here from British Gymnastics in response to your letter. We've received and read the open letter shared by Gymnasts for Change and are encouraged that they wish to re-engage with us to help ensure everyone can enjoy gymnastics safely

we look forward to discussing this matter further and hope all those listed will be able to join a meeting where we can update on the areas outlined and the actions we are already taking as well as inaccuracies within the letter i mean you'll have to get in into that with them i suppose and i should say we invited a representative onto the programme and that was declined this morning. No one was made available. But we do have you, Claire, and you're talking to me from a position of having made your own complaints and also now speaking to those who are in the system. I suppose taking a step back, and then I did want to ask for an update on your own case. What sort of stuff is being complained about? Because for those who don't know, you know, what sort of issues are coming up for gymnasts? And how safe

do you think British gymnastics is at the moment? So there's a range of issues that come up in these complaints. They are generally under the headings of emotional abuse, physical abuse, coercive control, and in some cases, sexual abuse. The details contained in these investigations are really distressing. And when you, for example, read the statements provided by the athletes about the impact that being weight shamed over a long period of time has had on them and their lives, and in some cases, leaving gymnasts hospitalized with eating disorders. And then you read the statements that are coming from the panel as judgments against the coaches which then refer to those gymnasts as impressionable.

You're just left in shock that after three years of our campaign running, 18 months after the White Review, that still trauma-informed processes are not being implemented and put at the heart of what is going on in this reform process by BG. And it really makes me think that Reform 25 is just a reputation management tick-box exercise and is not really engaging with the damage that these coaches have done to gymnasts. How widespread do you think this is? I know this is difficult to couch, but just on that? It's widespread. Those in the sport know it's widespread. Last week, I went for a meeting with FIG, which is the Federation International Gymnastique. They're based in Lusanne. They're

entirely funded by the Olympic Committee. And I spoke with the safeguarding officer there. And I think listeners who are involved in the sport will be really interested to know that the safeguarding officer that I spoke to essentially said that FIG's position is that abuse in the sport used to be an issue a few years ago and mainly revolves around eating disorder issues, which is not entirely true. But they really genuinely believe that the issues in the sport are just about Larry Nassar and that the issues with coaches don't... You're talking about the US coach? The US coach who was convicted of raping, not raping, but sexually abusing around 300 gymnasts.

Okay, so that was a conversation you've just had. Kat Craig, let me bring you in, a human rights lawyer. What do you make of what's been described in terms of the process? I think Claire's explanation there really resonates to me. I've heard this over and over again from victims and survivors, athletes across different sports and across different continents. And I'd really like to commend Claire for the clarity in which she's been able to explain a really quite complex process.

And I think recognising that, recognising the expertise of those at the heart of sport, the athletes that make sport possible, is a critical part of the solution. So I'd also say this has to be put in context. We are looking at a situation where in July 2020, a significant number of gymnasts made complaints, including about the failure of British gymnastics to deal with the complaints process appropriately. That was repeated by Anne White in her review, where she raised concerns about consistent and significant issues during her review of cases.

And I think ultimately, I would really encourage sports not just to hear Claire's concerns, but also to try and focus on solutions. And I think there is still a degree of defensiveness in some of the responses that I'm hearing. And in reality, if those who experience abuse do not trust and engage with the process, then ultimately that is a catastrophic failure for those whose responsibility it is to govern sport. It is their core function. And it is not just Claire and it's not just me who raised these concerns. This has been repeated, including by Anne White, who said there must be trust in the process and otherwise people will not come forward. So Claire has flagged a number of these procedural issues and there are solutions to this. And again, I think the initial step, the key process here is not just to continue to meet with athlete groups, with victim survivors and whistleblowers, but really to shift towards a collaborative and co-creation process where sport becomes less insular and really hears from those at the heart of the industry to understand what's going wrong in the current process.

Kat Gray, thank you very much for that. Claire, just a final word to you. I mentioned you had your own experience. Did you get justice? No. I mean, what is basically laughable about my situation is that... Do you mind just summarising briefly what happened? Sure. In order to have an independent complaint process heard, to have a case, to be a complainant within that process, you had to call the NSPCC helpline that was administrated by the British Athlete Commission. I did that along with four other athletes that I trained with. And three years, two years later, I've only just learned that our case was not taken forward. I've been engaging with the ICP process for two years. I've given statements.

I've helped them in every way that I can. And I only just learned that I was giving information for somebody else's case. I was a witness, but we were never even allocated a case number in the first place. What were you complaining of? Emotional and physical abuse by the club and by a particular coach okay because uh you know it's important to to try there's a there's a range of complaints here so to just try and put in the mind of our listeners what what you were complaining about so that's gone nowhere gone nowhere and you're going to leave that uh there's nothing for me to leave uh i don't have a case. I'm not a complainant. And I only just, after two years of engagement, I only just learned that.

There's this very specific difference between a witness and a complainant. And you didn't even know the difference. I didn't even know the difference. And I was not made aware I was only a witness. I suspect we will be talking again. But you're going to have this meeting, this roundtable, as you describe it. And we'll, of course, share those statements there from those involved at British Gymnastics and UK Sport. And we'll talk again.

Claire Heaford, thank you very much. The co-founder of Gymnasts for Change. You've been getting in touch throughout that conversation. I'm sure there'll be some responses as there often are. It comes sometimes a bit later to what you're hearing about gymnastics

if you're linked to that world. But I wanted to read this message because you're also getting in touch about what should be the changes, if any, to Ofsted's inspections of schools in England as school leaders from two unions get together and call for a pause in inspections. We just heard from one of the union leaders there. Libby has written in to say, My own mother's school was put into special measures in 2006 and despite working incredibly hard and achieving a good rating a few years later,

this sent my mum into a deep depression. She felt her character, ability and career had been called into question and I believe she never recovered from this. She took ill health retirement

shortly after and her health continued to decline. She was taken from us far too young at just 60 in 2019. Libby, thank you for sending in that message. It's an incredibly important one to read out this morning. And thank you for trusting us with that. Keep those messages coming in. Some ex-teachers now also getting in touch.

I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. But to ask you a completely different question, if I did come to you and I said,

what connects swivel chairs, a pontoon and Rihanna's song Umbrella, what might be your answer? If you happen to have been to the old Fire Station Theatre in Oxford recently, you may know the answer. A new play, Glacier, is a dark comedy that manages to combine all three of those things and do it at the same time as being a warm and poignant festive play. It follows three women, Lucy, Jules and Dawn, who meet while wild swimming in their local lake one Christmas. They form an unofficial tradition meeting each year to go for a swim and escape, escape a lot of their lives. The playwright, comedian and podcaster Alison Spittel joins me now

and actor from the production, Sophie Steer. Good morning to both of you. Alison, I'll start with you if I can. Actually, maybe Sophie, I'll start with you about the swivel chairs. Tell us more. Morning, Emma. Yeah, let's go straight in with the swivel chairs. What's going on with swivel chairs?

Well, the director, Madeleine Moore, when we arrived, just had a very, she was immediately like, guys, we're going to use the swivel chairs to swim. And I wasn't entirely, I couldn't quite see it at first. And then once we started it, because the set is a jetty, the swivel chairs, each, all three of us, me and then Emma Lau and Deborah Baker, all have our different swimming techniques on these chairs.

So I am, I mean, it's a visual, so it's difficult to describe. I know, you're working hard here. I do do the butterfly. Excellent. On a swivel chair to simulate wild swimming on a stage. Brilliant. Let's bring in Alison at this point. Alison, tell us a bit more about this story,

because at the heart of it is female friendship, isn't it? Yeah, so this is a story about three women who meet accidentally at first. There's one of the characters throws her ring into the lake because she's had a bad Christmas. But unfortunately, the ring hits another lady on the head. And then it is the opposite to a meet cute, I would call it, you know, because there's's uh people are quite sad at the start but it follows them over a 15 year period and sees their kind of friendships grow um because it's three women that some friendships grow at a faster rate than others and we kind of explore that um and it comes

from i think like when i wrote the play i think it's because I'm in my 30s now and I moved from Ireland to England. And I think making friends was at the top of my list of stuff to do. And I found it hard, you know, as an adult to kind of try and make up a new social network. I felt very like I was five years old again, going on almost like friendship dates with different women and feeling rejected sometimes or sometimes knowing that the chemistry wasn't right.

And, yeah, I wanted to write a play that kind of expressed that. And I thought, why not a Christmas, you know? Yeah, a Christmas one and make people smile as well. And also include some very cold water in that. Are you a wild swimmer? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I grew up in a place called Westmead, which the nickname is the Lake County.

And it was just something free to do. So we did a lot of wild swimming, you know, but we would just call it swimming i suppose before before it's become very fashionable now and then i have made friends um i've made friends swimming in lidos i wouldn't call them wild in london there's definitely i think people are way more open uh when when they're swimming or when they're getting changed like i've had many chats with different people in a communal changing room that i don't think i would ever talk to them like they're more open i think people in london to talking at swimming

pools or changing rooms than they are on a bus you know also you've got the endorphins i wanted to kind of explore that yes no go on go on that's it you know you've just you endorphins kicking in. I wanted to kind of explore that. Yes. Go on, Sophie. That's it. Everyone's kind of happy. You know, you're in nature for a start. You know, it's the health benefits of going into cold water and endorphins are popping. And then there's lots of people for various different reasons doing the same thing. I'm the same, Alison.

I love if there's a body of water, I'm very likely to jump in it. Yes. Your character, Sophie. Oh, I think there's a slight delay on the line but let me just go to Sophie if I can you you play Jules tell us a bit about her and how she fits in and and what you're taking away from this on on female friendship uh she's she's spiky and she's cynical um and doesn't like Christmas oh Oh, okay. And actually, on the whole, it's kind of the happier she gets,

the more she helps. Like, she communicates that she doesn't like Christmas to her friends to see if they join her in her anti-Christmas vibes. But deep down, that's obviously not the case, and she's incredibly sensitive and is pushing away some grief that she doesn't want to connect to. So it comes out as a sort of defensive spike.

But actually, she needs these friends bit by bit to slowly crack open and talk to and swim with. And yeah, slowly decides to communicate and start to like Christmas again. Yeah, well, that's not always the solution, I suppose, because it's okay not to. You may not even celebrate it, of course, but it's interesting how you can get close, like you're both saying, in different scenarios. And I just wonder to you, Sophie,

writing about female friendship, I know you also work as a stand-up, and trying to make new friends yourself as you change where you live. Have you managed it? Have you got any tips for people who perhaps are struggling to get to that next level with people, maybe without going into swimming pools? Oh, that's a great question.

I'm one of those annoying people like who's in a relationship who says to their single friends it will happen just give it time you know and i uh i i think uh the thing is just accept people as they are there are different types of people that will help with different elements of friendship like I have cynical friends uh who I love to have a moan with you know and they're my moany friends and then I have happy friends I just kind of like I'm a bit of a social butterfly I'm a definite pick and mixer I'm very bad at making long-term relationships I'm a bit of a what would you call it a fly by night I'm sowing my royal

oats when it comes to friends as well and I'm having a good time but I feel like I do need to settle down and make some actual core friends do stand-up comedy it's quite good for making friends Sophie I felt like you wanted to say something though about making friends and getting there no I've just had experience as an adult where yeah I found it there was a moment in time where I arrived in a new place and I didn't know anyone and I'd never experienced that before not having a community and yeah I suddenly felt shy. Yeah well it's something that's something that people also then feel shy talking about as well which is which is perhaps a good reason for talking about this now.

I do just want to ask, because we have talked about Christmas, it is OK now, December 12th. Alison, for you, just a final thought from you, if I can. Having written a festive play, wanting to make people think and also make them laugh, have you got any of your festive traditions, you know, with this idea of going for a swim? Do you do anything like that? Well, I'm not brave enough to go swimming on Christmas Day.

But what I do do with my mum is we go around all the different supermarkets at 4 p.m. on Christmas Eve and look for the yellow sticker. So that means that we can get some lovely Marks and Spencers. One year, it's like supermarket sweet, but there's very real steaks, you know what I mean? One year we didn't have cranberry sauce because we got a bit too cocky and a bit too confident because it had worked different years. But genuinely, if you want an adrenaline rush and a bargain,

go around the supermarkets at 4pm, have a list. It's like a military operation. It's wonderful. Alison Spittel, thank you very much. And the actor Sophie Steer. Glacier is the play we started by talking about on at the old fire station in Oxford until the 23rd of December. And if you need entertainment on the 24th,

other supermarkets available, why not try and do that? And some of you may be doing that, of course, out of necessity, but also you can make it a game, as was just described, and there is an adrenaline slide to it as well. I just have to say we're getting so many messages coming back to the discussion around Ofsted and inspection. I do want to read out some of these if I can and some more. I retired from teaching 12 years ago. Last Sunday, I had lunch with some old colleagues. The topic of Ofsted came up as it always does. I was shocked to hear that four of us still have distressing dreams a decade later. It is the main reason

31% of teachers leave within five years, says Sally, citing some research there, of course, I don't have to have, but you've obviously seen. Another one here, I still remember the evening 30 plus years ago when my wife called me in distress after being unjustifiably criticised by a British Ofsted inspector who was clearly on some kind of power trip. And yet another one here, no name on it. I'm married to a hardworking and dedicated Ofsted inspector. As a former teacher and head teacher, he is well aware of the challenges and stresses of this role. School leaders, like other vital professions, should still be accountable, accountable for delivering a good education and ultimately the safeguarding for the children.

And another one here, I'm an ex-teacher, this is from Alison, and a governor with over 20 years' experience at three different schools and so have a lot of experience on Ofsted. What should be a positive experience aimed at improving a school and thereby the experience of young people involved is often far too stressful and negative. Of course, schools need inspecting. But in my experience, inspectors too often come with preconceived ideas about the school and a determination to grill staff.

That's not an exaggeration. And one more here from Robert, which says, I don't agree with the head teacher's spokesperson, the head of the union we just had on. Ofsted reports are several pages long I know because I read them and they contain information on good bits and bits that need attention. A single word summary helps parents and carers like me. I have no connection with Ofsted but welcome its

view in preference to the wall being pulled over my eyes sometimes by school leaders and governors. Get a grip teachers and use inspections as free consultancy to help you improve. As I say, from Robert, one of our listeners, and many more messages that I'm not sure I can quite get to, but I've tried to read out a good cross section there of what we are receiving. It's a highly emotive topic, especially in this particular context. But let me tell you

about something else entirely, because leading scientists are calling for a change in the law to help IVF patients donate unused embryos to research after a collapse in donations over the past 15 years. Figures obtained by the Guardian newspaper show that the number of embryos donated to research after IVF treatment fell steadily from 17,925 in 2004, so nearly 20,000, to just 675 in 2019. That's the most recent year for which data is available. It's quite a change, but why? I'm joined now by Cathy Neokhan, Professor of Reproductive Physiology and Director of the Centre for Trophoblast Research

at the University of Cambridge, and Claire Ettenhausen, Director of Strategy and Corporate Affairs at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. That's the UK's independent regulator of fertility treatment. Cathy, if I can start with you, why the drop? Good morning. Morning. Thank you very much for raising the issue. So as you say, initially, several thousands of embryos were donated per year for several years. And then all of a sudden, it seemed sometime around 2011, there was a massive decline, despite the number of IVF cycles actually increasing.

So that reflects about less than 1% of embryos are donated to research after IVF treatment. And it translates to about 180,000 embryos discarded every year. And do we know why? Yeah. And so that's, I think, the key question. I think it's complex. So one possibility is that only one in five clinics offer the option to donate to research. So most 80% don't offer this option. And so most people may not be aware that they even have the right to donate to research if their clinic doesn't offer, this is an option. And in addition, there's been an increase in the number of gamete donations, which I think is great because it allows for embryos to be created for individuals or couples. But donor gametes are actually even more challenging to consent to donate to research because of the complexity of the consenting process. So I think as regulators,

clinics, and research scientists, we all, I think, have an important role to play to make this much easier for patients to support their wishes. It's a really challenging process for anyone to go through. It doesn't work every time. And I think we need to convey the importance and the value of their contribution to research and also respect that it's individuals who've gone through a very, very challenging process. So they should be given all of the choices that are available and not have to kind of fight for things that they want to do that. And just on that, but before we get to maybe some of the other reasons why there aren't donations, how important is it, ironically, for the process of IVF and the progress of that, so to potentially actually improve the rates, improve the odds that you do have these donations? Yeah, I think that's really key. So in terms of the consequences, not only for science, but also for future clinical improvements, I think we have a lot of really key. So in terms of the consequences, not only for science, but also for future clinical improvements, I think we have a lot of big challenges. So as a society, if we agree

that we want to improve treatment options for individuals, if we want to improve rates of the way in which embryos, so the type, I should probably just pause just to say, what are the type of embryos that we're talking about? And what's that, the stage? It's closer to a fertilized egg. And so the type of embryos that are being donated to research are fertilized eggs, two cell, eight cell embryos, or maybe embryos that have about 200 cells. They're all before implantation in the uterus, and these are cryopreserved often. So they're frozen in liquid nitrogen. And in terms of research and clinical improvements, we have huge challenges. So we want to try to improve treatment options. We want to improve rates at which embryos actually successfully implant and go on to develop. We want to lower the rates of

developmental disorders, understand and minimize the risk of especially recurrent miscarriage, understand the causes of some pregnancy complications like preeclampsia and intrauterine growth restriction, which can be fatal. And in addition to that, embryo research has tremendous value therapeutically in terms of cell replacement therapy or modelling and trying to ameliorate diseases like diabetes, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. So these are huge challenges, right? We all have. And so if we as a society decide that these are challenges that we want to tackle, I think we need to facilitate and make this process much easier. Are you not able to do this at the moment because of the drop in donations? Is your

work being severely impacted? I think we all as research scientists and also in a clinical context, our clinical colleagues go through tremendous efforts to try to make this process as easy as possible. But there are major challenges. And maybe even just from a patient perspective, if a patient doesn't have the option to donate to research in their clinic, those 80% of patients, they often have to go through counseling because it takes them so long to try to donate to research, or they have to pay extra storage fees just to facilitate the paperwork and the whole regulatory process. Patients are having to call around to different research groups to try to broker a deal between their clinic and the research groups. And I think that causes a huge amount of upset.

And also, of course, there will be those patients who do not wish to donate at the same time because they don't feel good about it. Or they may not make a decision for some time as well. Claire Ettinghausen from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. What do you believe is behind the drop? I think it's complex. And as Cathy said, there's several reasons. And as you've just said, we know that some patients will not want to donate embryos that are unused after treatment. It marks the end of a treatment journey that may or may not have been successful. So it's a really difficult decision. But we also know, as Cathy said, that other patients really place a lot of importance on being able to donate

embryos. The current system that we have to regulate according to means that any suitable embryos have to be donated to a specific research project that your clinic must have links to, which means that not all embryos will be suitable to donation and your clinic might not be doing this at all. And that means that licensed and ethically approved projects, important projects that really will change lives in the future, like Cathy's, will have potentially a shortage of supply of embryos, and that can delay progress in research and scientific and medical development. So what, as you said at the outset, we've called together with researchers for a change in the law to mean that instead of patients having to donate through their clinic to a specific research project, and there's only about 18 or 19 projects across the UK at the moment, there's over 100 treatment centres. So instead of having to donate

to a specific project, they can donate to a kind of biobank where their embryos are stored and then researchers like Cathy can go into the biobank and retrieve the embryos suitable for their project. And we really think that will increase the number of embryos donated. Of course, giving patients the choice to opt out of that if they prefer. And as well as that, we really want to emphasise that clinics have a lot to talk about with patients. There are lots of difficult decisions to be made about what happens with any unused embryos, but it's really important for those patients who want to donate to have all the information possible, both from their clinic and from the HFEA website as well.

It's not the only time, just to go to something slightly different, if I can, while I have you, because your chairwoman, Julia Chain, it's not the only time you're going to the government at the moment, it seems. She's just spoken publicly to say fertility clinics that missell treatments to prospective parents should face fines. She wants the government to grant your body the power to impose those financial penalties on IVF clinics to prevent patients from being potentially exploited.

What's been the response on that as well? And also to calls for the change in law on this? So the government asked us a while ago to look at what changes need to be made. Most of our law is over 30 years old and in a modern fertility sector where the majority of patients are paying for their treatment, we don't have really suitable powers to intervene where we think patients are being harmed or need greater protection. We went out to consult on some of the

proposals, all of the proposals early in the year, and there was overwhelming support for almost all of them, including fining, because that was seen as a suitable quick intervention that most modern regulators have. Of course, any fines collected go to the Treasury, they wouldn't come to the HFEA. And also in terms of opening, widening up consent to research, there was a lot of support from both patients and researchers, that as long as patients have a choice about where their embryos go to after treatment, this would be really an important move to enable, whether it's projects like Cathy's or others to have more embryos potentially available for research. So there's an openness

to it, but when may change happen, I suppose? Well, I mean, that's unfortunately not up to us. It's up to this government or any future government. We hope over the next few years, because really over 30 years, there's a long time to be working under a law that really is um wholly unsuitable to what we're seeing in the fertility sector at the moment so i know you say hopefully soon yes okay so so that's i mean i recognize that's not in your hands it's just wondering if you've been given some sort of guide and and just those who are listening to this who maybe don't know that much or are deeply connected to it, do you understand why there is some reticence about donation?

Absolutely. I mean, I think that anyone who has experienced fertility treatment and has embryos left in storage has some very difficult decisions to be made. As Cathy says, they may benefit from counselling or peer support or indeed if they can afford to pay, may keep those embryos in storage for many, many years until making a decision about what to do with them. These are really difficult issues. In the UK, we're fortunate enough that embryo research has a very high ethical bar and is very tightly regulated according to the law which we think is beneficial and is indeed around the world people look with admiration about how that research is carried out in the UK so we hope that that can provide some reassurance whether it's for patients who are thinking about what to do with their unused embryos for the wider public that those embryos are only used in very, very strict circumstances,

according to the law and for important and life-changing research. Claire Ettinghausen, thank you to you. Cathy Newican, thank you to you. And thank you to you for your company today. Tomorrow, we're going to be in the company of Imelda Staunton, of course, one of our leading actors. And I think she'll have a thing or two to say about the final series of The Crown in which she's playing Queen Elizabeth and a lot more too.

Join me then at 10 o'clock. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. If anyone is an artist in their soul, it's Joni Mitchell. There are some artists that change music forever. The mastery of the guitar, the mastery of voice, the mastery of language. That shape the musical landscape for everyone who comes after.

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