Woman's Hour - The future of IVF. Self-love. Reclaim These Streets judicial review. ENB's Tamara Rojo.

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

Scientists from the University of Edinburgh are preparing to begin testing a new IVF treatment which could allow women to freeze their eggs at a much younger age and increase the likelihood of successful pregnancies in older women. Professor Evelyn Telfer, chair of reproductive biology at the University discusses how this research could change fertility treatment in the future. We hear from artist Tracey Emin about why she she wants an artwork she donated to the government’s art collection removed from display in Number 10 Downing Street. and following Christian Wakeford's defection to the the Labour Party Anna Soubry, who left the Conservative Party to sit as part of a group of independent MPs which later went on to become Change UK ,shares what it's like to defect and whether it works out politically. The world-renowned ballet dancer and artistic director of English National Ballet, Tamara Rojo, joins us following her decision to step down from her role after ten years to become the artistic director of San Francisco Ballet, Today the High Court hears the judicial review brought by Reclaim These Streets. They are challenging the Metropolitan Police’s handling of a vigil - in memory of Sarah Everard, and in opposition to violence against women. Reclaim These Streets co-founder Anna Birley tells us why they're seeking the review. . Plus do you practice self-love? If so how, do you do it? ‘Thirty Things I Love About Myself’ is a new comedic novel by Radhika Sanghani. It's inspired her own journey to loving herself – culminating in not one but two nude portraits of herself front and centre in her home. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Good to be back with you after a few days of ill health. I've missed our conversations, especially ones which would begin with me asking you this. Would you ever commission a nude portrait of yourself? One of my guests today, the author and journalist Radhika Sangani, has not one but two naked paintings of herself in her home,

created on her mission to love herself more. Her mother apparently thinks it's vain, but such acts have helped Radhika disrupt that negative loop in her head about herself. So would you do it? A nude painting? How would you pose? Legs akimbo? Legs together? Arms above the head? Where would you do it? A nude painting? How would you pose? Legs akimbo? Legs together? Arms above the head? Where would you hang it? Or do you see it as an act of vanity? What's the vainest thing you've done? And perhaps it's helped. Share and bear all here with me on Woman's Hour this morning. 84844. That's the number you can text me on. I could already see

one of my guests wincing. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Also on today's programme, Tamara Rojo, the legendary ballet dancer and now outgoing artistic director of the English National Ballet, will be here to talk about 10 years of her reign with the English National Ballet. One of the women behind that Sarah Everard vigil ahead of a court hearing in which she's taking on the Met Police. And we're going to be talking about the psychology of defecting from one political party to another by a woman who did it. But first, the artist Tracy Emin, one of our most successful and well-known female artists, said she wants an artwork she

donated to the government's art collection removed from display in Number 10 Downing Street, posting on Instagram yesterday, because the current situation, as she puts it, is shameful. She's talking about, and we'll hear more from her, I suppose, about what's been going on around the parties in and around Downing Street. More passion. It's a neon artwork written out in neon lettering. It was installed in Downing Street in 2011 when David Cameron was Prime Minister. Tracey Emin, good morning.

Morning, Emma. Thanks for coming on. And tell us more. What do you want back and why? Well, I don't actually want the neon back because I donated it to the Government's art collection. And what people have to understand is, you know, if Keir Starmer was to become Prime Minister next week

and he liked my neon, it's still hanging there that when you give a work to the or the government arts collection has a work of yours it's for any government it's for time in memorial they hang it in embassies schools hospitals all over the place so I don't want the work back because I donated it I would simply like at the moment for it to be taken down. Because a neon is notoriously like for a party atmosphere. You have them in fun fairs, casinos, bars or whatever. And I really do not feel that number 10 needs any encouragement on this level. So removed from display with the news that's going on around the parties.

Yeah, not just that. It's just like their behaviour is pretty shameful. I just, you know, people are really genuinely upset about this. And it's not about a political thing. It's about a moral, ethical thing. People had to watch their loved ones be buried on their telephone right or be cremated on their telephone they went to their husbands their wives their mothers their brothers their lover's funeral by watching it on a telephone the queen went to her husband's funeral and sat there stoically alone while they were having a party, it makes no sense. It's just so disrespectful.

And it shows that, you know, I know you're not really supposed to swear on the radio, but they really are taking the piss. They really are. Okay, there we go. But in terms of your, and that's how you would characterise that, apologies to anyone who doesn't want to hear that word on the radio,

as you've already pointed out before you did it. Yeah, but I think, I know, but I think that's what you would characterise that. Apologies to anyone who doesn't want to hear that word on the radio, as you've already pointed out before you did it. I know, but I think that's what everybody is thinking and gone on to talk about not being sure that rules were being broken. And everybody's talking about waiting for this one woman, Sue Gray, the civil servant, to give back this report and report her findings. We're expecting that next week. I suppose the question I had for you is if you say that you feel you just don't want this hanging there, do you have that sort of control? Are you able to make that request? say they you feel you just don't want this hanging there do you have that sort of control are you able to make that request i don't and also i know for a fact that boris johnson likes it hanging there do you how do you know that because he told me right so um you know and also the reason why my work is hanging there is because when you have a new prime minister prime minister chooses work from the government arts collection david cameron chose a piece of my work but there

wasn't the he wanted a neon there wasn't one so i donated one to the government arts collection and it's hanging in 10 downing street and i have to be honest i'm quite proud of that because dignities all kinds of people go to 10 downing Street. And at the time, I thought, well, it's making Britain look sort of cool and, you know, on a different level in terms of contemporary art. David Cameron's government had a very different attitude towards art and contemporary art to what this government does. This government actually doesn't think that art should be in schools, doesn't think that art should be on the school curriculum, doesn't value art, doesn't value culture. And by me saying this, I'm just proving how important art and culture is. So I've got my own agenda here as well. Sorry, that basis for what you've just said about this government not valuing art is based on, because we're going off slightly into a different direction.

Yeah, I know, yeah. What's that based on? Well, art makes people feel good, especially in times during the lockdowns, all the museums were closed. Every aspect of culture was shut down. Art was compared to night, museums were compared to nightclubs. Yes, so when you say that this government's not valuing that,

you're talking about how the lockdown affected those institutions. Yeah, and how it affected people mentally as well to have culture and art taken away from them. Art is really important within terms of society and always has been since time immemorial. And you posted this, as I mentioned, on your Instagram and you're in a position to make your voice heard. We're grateful to hear it today on Women's Hour. But are you able to make this request to the prime minister? Are you able to do that yourself? Well, yeah, I can just write a letter, can't I?

Are you going to do that? Yeah, I might do. But I have a feeling that my voice is very loud and clear. And this also goes to show one little Instagram post from me can cause this kind of attention because people agree with me. People agree with me that this behaviour from this present government is shameful. So just to be clear, you do not want your neon sign which says more passion hanging in this Downing Street at this time? No, I don't. I want it taken down. And if this government, I'll tell you what they need, they need more compassion. That's what they need, not more passion. They don't need more party atmospheres and they don't need to, all of us, most of us are obeying the rules

in every single way because this pandemic has affected everybody so terribly whether it's financially whether it's health-wise you know whether it's people dying or whatever and this government doesn't seem to care about that and it's proven it as well every day something new a lot of people will agree with you A lot of people may also have different views because they may say on balance, of course, the vaccine programme and other ways that the pandemic has been handled has been okay. And it's been, some people have seen the messages

on the come into the text console here at Women's Hour myself. Some people have said, well, they were having a very stressful time. Perhaps they needed to have drinks together. I'm representing those views as well. And there's some saying there's nobody in the wings, Tracey Emin, ready to take over. And I'd rather have this prime minister at this moment.

All right. OK, so let's say that the stress and everything of running government in this terrible time, no prime minister was expecting to go into power and have this happen, right? And no one has that experience. is pretty horrific right that was my opinion at the beginning and still is actually but um i don't think if they wanted people if they wanted to let off steam and needed to have a few drinks probably so did other people too maybe people needed to go to a funeral and say goodbye

to someone they love. That isn't asking too much. So what I'm saying is they could have done what they were doing, but actually made it quite clear what they were doing and be quite transparent as well. And perhaps made it clear, as you say to others, that they could have been in a different position with different circumstances. Just a final thought final thought of course do let us know if the prime minister comes back to you or whatever the response is as we understand it the the department for government art hasn't hasn't got a comment at this moment but um my question i suppose was how do you feel when you think about the fact that these parties have been going on you know tables being carried out through Downing Street under your artwork more passion it made me well you know what I've got reputation for being

a party girl anyway yeah but in this situation the answer is no no you set an example and you live by that example and the worst thing that's happened here as well is the fact that they lied. They lied. And I think that is what, and so that means that people can't trust, you can't trust a liar. It's that simple. So that's the other shameful thing about this. They didn't put their hands up and say, we were under stress. This was this, this was that.

They didn't. They just sort of like, just thought they was going to get away with it they're not keep us posted i think i can hear are you in margate your usual place i can hear the seagulls yeah you can hear the seagulls and actually i just remembered i'm actually having a meeting today with the head of the british uh the government the government arts collection i totally forgot that. What a well-timed meeting. Right, we can catch up, Tracey, and hear what happens. I will leave you to your morning.

Tracey Emmett, thank you very much for talking to me and to all of us. There you go. Well, a message just came in from Phyllis saying, go Tracey Emmett, respect, respect, respect. There you go. She was asking for that piece of work to come down from where it's hanging in Downing Street. Well, my next guest probably has seen that artwork because it's been there since she was an MP, certainly under David Cameron. In the words of the Commons

Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle, what a day yesterday turned out to be for Boris Johnson. Moments before Prime Minister's questions, it was announced that the Conservative MP, as he was, Christian Wakeford, defected to the Labour Party, describing the Prime Minister as incapable of leading. He took the very south seat from Labour at the 2019 general election and during PMQs, many MPs called on the Prime Minister to quit, including the Tory grandee, David Davis. Number 10 has insisted the Prime Minister will fight any leadership challenge and Mr Johnson has come in for severe criticism,

as we've just been discussing discussing since admitting he attended a party held in the gardens of number 10 by number 10 staff in downing street during the may 2020 lockdown what is it like then to defect does it ever work out politically anna subri you may remember left the conservative party to sit as a part of a group of independent ms, which later went on to become Change UK, as it was then a new political party. Anna Soubry, good morning. Good morning. Is it a very difficult decision, that wrestling with you've been elected with one party for your constituents and then you want to leave? Yes, of course. I mean, for me, it wasn't an instant decision. It had been brewing for a very, very long time, which is why it really wasn't a surprise, but it's always difficult. And actually, it's your local activists who have gone out in all weathers on your behalf, essentially,

knocked on doors, delivered leaflets that I certainly had the most emotional attachment to and felt that, you know, I knew I'd be letting a number of them down, but I don't think they were that surprised. And I suppose in your situation, what's different to what happened yesterday with Christian is you went somewhere else, somewhere new, and it was a new start in some ways. It didn't last very long, as people may remember. But actually yesterday, watching somebody go from the Conservatives to Labour is quite a different thing.

It is. It is. It's huge. Because that's almost like a huge ideological change. Now, I mean, Christian Wakeford says, well, actually, I've always been a centrist. Well, we might have a little chat about that. I don't know him at all. And he feels that his politics now sit more comfortably in the Labour Party. I mean, I don't know. It is a huge change when you go from Labour to Conservative or Conservative to Labour.

Whereas for me, I mean, I've got history. Remember, the first political party I joined at the age of 17 was the Liberal Party. But my politics actually haven't changed really at all in well over 40 years, nearly 50 years now, of being interested in politics. But as you say, to go from one sharp, the big division and to cross over like that is quite something. And it doesn't often work out that well, does it, when you defect? Because you are viewed dimly sometimes by your constituents. There are those who are saying they're very angry in his constituency this morning.

He himself, I actually understand, thought if you are one of those people, you should be calling a by-election. Yes, I think he voted for it. He voted for a bill that was going through Parliament. But I suppose what's it like with your, just what I wanted to understand this morning and share with with our listeners is what is it like also with those who you were on the benches with? Is that a difficult thing as well? Well, the people who thought I was not a real Tory anyway, just continued to treat me with the disdain that they've been treating me for a good two years. So there was there was nothing new there. What I found was actually there were a group of conservatives who didn't seem to make a scrap of difference to them. And then there were others who used to tease me gently in the nicest way

and say, you'll be back. And they were very pleasant. So I didn't get any unpleasantness at all. But that is not the same for a number of people. And in fact, Christian, I understand who, when he went over, he was hissed and he was called a word which we can't repeat. It's not as gentle as the one that Tracy just used. I'm loving everyone's warnings this morning. Yeah, go on.

No, it's the W word. But in any event um so he was he was hissed and all the rest of it i never got stuff like that but then to be fair um my time as a conservative after the referendum because of my views on brexit i was getting uh a lot of really some you know unpleasantness from fellow conservatives and i it's now three years ago that you remember when I was walking into parliament and I got all that gang of yobs around me and blah blah the people who came up to me and said are you okay that was awful it was really noticeable they were Labour MPs Lib Dem SNP MPs and hardly any conservatives and it was quite a moment for me. And locally, there were local Conservative councillors who said openly, oh, well, she just got what she deserved.

And so if I had any doubt, which I didn't, but if I'd had any doubt about what I knew I was going to be doing, my goodness me, those doubts were got rid of at that time. So to be fair, Theresa May and her cabinet did write to me, just want to put that on the record. They did write saying how disgusted they were. And Theresa, I think, genuinely believed that. I think it is also always worth remembering the political context of a moment when those things happened, the high drama. You had been somebody who was very much in support of the Remain side when that was still a debate, when that was still in play.

And as you say, those people outside, those protesters outside Parliament, I used to do a show just outside on College Green a lot and see this sort of thing. And you couldn't sometimes broadcast for the sound of what was going on. It was very, very tempestuous. I just wonder, you know, weirdly, I suppose, yesterday with all of this going on, that there will be those who say it's very dramatic, but it seems actually the defection has calmed it down. That's what some of it's been saying now this morning, the reporting. Just from your perspective, final thought from you, Anna, do you think you could ever go back to the Conservative Party?

Because it's interesting you say your politics hasn't changed. Now the Brexit side of things, Brexit's certainly not gone away, and in terms of we still need to keep analysing, I suppose, the impacts and how things are there. But do you think now the temperature's dropped on that, you could ever go back? No, I tell you, I said at the time, and I still believe, that the Conservative Party left me, I didn't leave them. And I could see this drift to the right, because frankly, they had won,

and I'm not talking about the country at large, but within the Conservative Party, people who'd been on the fringes, the people who were against our membership of the European Union had won and they clearly had taken over the party. And if I hadn't gone then, I would have certainly gone when Boris Johnson became leader, because it was a mark of what has happened to the Conservative Party. And I have this discussion because I still have obviously friends in the Conservative Party. And I have this discussion because I still have, obviously, friends in the Conservative Party. I was having a good old chinwag with Ken Clarke only yesterday, and I saw a whole bunch of people just before Christmas. And my view is that the party has changed in such a way,

I just don't see it ever getting back to the days of David Cameron when it was in that centre ground. So I can't see me ever joining it again. I'm politically homeless, like I think millions of people are. Well, I was also going to say, though, you know, to huge electoral success, Boris Johnson, previous to, I suppose, what's going on now, a lot of the country liked what they were offered.

We don't need to go back over the general election, of course, but just in terms of that success and, you know, the worst for Labour since 1925. But that feeling of political homelessness, of course, people have also been talking about also for some time. Anna Soubry, I just wanted to say and out you as the person on our collective video call this morning who did not seem to want to have a nude painting of themselves. Certainly not. I just don't. I mean, look, I can understand. I really do believe, as women, we should love our bodies more. I actually, I mean, I'm quite happy with my body,

but, you know, I need to lose some weight. And I just look at it going, I'd say to the artist, can you shave off some of that tummy fat, please? Well, we're going to get to that. No, because that, sorry, come on, you know, think of Rubens, think of all those, you know, amazing paintings of women with all their bits and bobs. It's even better, apparently, for the painting.

But we're not convincing you on that, Anna Soubry. Thank you very much for your time this morning. We'll get back to that very shortly. But talking about women, talking about women's rights and talking about protest, if you like, of some description, Reclaim These Streets was a group, you will remember, I'm sure, many of you formed by women in March of last year in response to the terrible news, the shocking news

of the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard with the purpose of organising a vigil for her on Clapham Common the Saturday after Sarah's killing at the hands of a serving police officer. You may also remember that that vigil was deemed unlawful by the Metropolitan Police. So the organisers felt forced to cancel it, threatened with large fines and other ramifications. But a spontaneous vigil happened anyway. Now, Reclaim These Streets believe that decision to not allow that organised vigil to go ahead, breached their human rights, saying it silenced women at a time when they feared for their safety.

Well, yesterday, the campaign group secured a judicial review of that decision by the police and Reclaim These Streets co-founder Anna Burley joins me now from outside the High Court, where I know you're going in very soon and the hearing continues today. Good morning, Anna. Good morning. Thanks for having me. On what grounds have you been granted a judicial review? So last time we were in court last March it was an interim decision it was very high speed because we were in court the Friday the vigil was meant to be the Saturday

this time that urgency is gone but we don't think that the issues have gone away we still believe that the decision making by the Met was inappropriate and didn't take into account our human rights. And we think that they also didn't abide by the actual letter of the judgment that we got in March. So we're going back to sort of reopen and look at the decision making and communications by the police after the event, as well as in the run up to. Do you ever regret not going ahead with it because it went ahead anyway?

And again, I know that reminding people of the context is quite important. Yeah, I do and I don't. On the one hand, you know, I we were threatened with being prosecuted under the Serious Crimes Act. And honestly, that probably would have put my job at risk and my ability to get future jobs. The consequences wasn't simply a fine. The consequences would be life-changing. But on the other hand, I'm so angry because we didn't ask for permission. We reached out because we wanted to make sure that the policing was sensitive and proportionate and appropriate. And we believe in, you know, working in partnership. And that's something I've got lots of experience at a local level

in Lambeth anyway. And it has turned into something where maybe, you know, if we just spilled out of a football match or brought our own booze in a suitcase, perhaps the outcome would be very different than that attempt at sort of good partnership working. So there's perhaps a sort of regret in that way of reaching out in that first place at that time. I mean, just to go back to what you were saying about the Metropolitan Police. In a statement, they say, we do not believe our approach was founded on an inaccurate interpretation of the regulations or that this constituted an unlawful interference with the claimant's rights. Throughout the pandemic, officers worked to balance the need to safeguard the public at large from COVID with the rights of individuals protected by the Human Rights Act. Policing of public order events is highly complex, one of the most scrutinised areas of law enforcement. We believe we're world leaders in this area.

They'll say they'll comment further when the proceedings have concluded. From the police's point of view, and I've spoken to a lot of police over the last couple of years with these pandemic regulations, and at times they've vented their own frustration with how hard it had been to understand some of the time what the rules were. Putting that to one side, do you have any sympathy there for what the police were trying to manage? I think it is very difficult. They've been handed a set of regulations that shifted decision making from Parliament, where issues like how human rights fit with public health regulations should have been debated and that legislation and those regulations should have been drafted properly. And I think that is a risk when we look at how we make our laws going forward is how do we make sure that we aren't putting that sort of onus on the police again to make those decisions. It's one of the reasons I think today is really timely. In Parliament, they're debating the police bill and the police bill does give a lot more decision-making power and shifts that burden from Parliament to police.

And I think the conversations we're having in court today and that we had yesterday and what this case is really exploring is, is that appropriate? Are the police well-equipped to make those decisions? Do those decisions result in things like human rights being disregarded because the law is not clear enough on those. So what are you hoping to achieve with this? Because some listening will be thinking, well, you know, this was a long time ago. What can you do now? And it went ahead anyway.

Yeah, I think on a very personal level, the experience of working with the police last year was deeply frustrating. It felt like they were saying one thing in court and behaving in a different way. So on a personal level, it's about exposing some of that unpleasantness that we experienced from the very top at the Met Police and exposing a culture that silenced women. I think on a sort of bigger issue level, I think today's really important because it's about how we respect our human rights. It's about making sure that in the future, protest is something which all women and all citizens are able to really actively take part in because it's such a crucial part of our democracy. If I may, Anna, I understand that wider context. We actually had a very interesting conversation

with the women's rights activist Helen Pankhurst the other day about the policing bill, talking about this in detail. But for those listening who are thinking, that's all very well, Anna, but it was COVID. There were these restrictions. It was quite a unique moment. What would you say to them in terms of what you can achieve? The sort of precedents that are set regardless of situation can impact sort of future ways that situations are handled. So I think it's still important, even though the time was but continues

to be very unusual. I know that restrictions have been completely eased, but there's nothing to say that a future issue might result in emergency bits of legislation going through that risk limiting women's right to be heard. And so I think it is an important line in the sand we need to make sure we keep establishing. Our democracy is only as healthy as we sort of keep pushing to make it. So I think

we've got to make sure we're always having these conversations and fighting these battles. Are you able to say just, I know you've got to go and you literally tell me when you've got to go, but unpleasantness from the police right at the very top. I'm aware that we haven't got anybody to respond to what you're about to say, but what are you talking about? We feel that in the run-up to the vigil, we were often belittled. We were put in a really unpleasant and difficult position by police officers who were adamant that the event wasn't going to happen and wouldn't engage with us on how we could keep women safe. We feel like there have been some, there was some dishonesty, whether intended

or otherwise, in some of the statements made by police during that time and since. The fact that they put out a statement while we were in a meeting with them after the court case last time, saying that the event was unlawful, while we were literally debating in the room with them how we could make sure that we kept people safe at the event felt um unpleasant uh to to be uh the focus of but also you know the investigation by the hmic frs afterwards basically we got labeled as naive young women and it felt disrespectful. It disregarded the huge amount of experience that we all bring. And it felt symptomatic of a culture that just wants to silence voices it disagrees with. Well, on those particular points, it would be very interesting to hear what we said.

They said they'll be commenting further at the close of proceedings. I'll let you go in to the court. Thank you very much, Anna, for making the time. And we'll catch back up with you, I'm sure, soon. The Reclaim the Streets co-founder there, Anna Burley, just joining us from outside the High Court, where that hearing continues today. And as part of the Met Police statement, just to say the Met was unable, as they say, to give advance assurance to the claimants that their involvement in organising the vigil would not put them at risk of enforcement action during or subsequent to that event. Now thank you very much indeed for some of these messages that I have received here on our wonderful message console that you've been texting or sending emails or social media messages through when I've asked you the question would you

ever commission a nude portrait of yourself, a nude painting? I asked because my next guest has not one, but two in her flat, one above her bed and one in the living room. She's also just written a new novel called 30 Things I Love About Myself. Author and journalist Radhika Sangani. Good morning. Radhika, hello. Hello. We have got quite a response here. And I'm going to go through some of those messages in just a moment. Can you describe these naked paintings, first of all, because we are on the radio.

Sure. So the one I have hanging above my bed is the one I actually wanted to commission. I didn't mean to commission to. I'll explain that later. But I decided to celebrate myself, to celebrate how far I've come and to celebrate kind of the self-love journey I think I've been going on in the last few years. I just really wanted to do something to kind of commemorate this confidence that I've got. And I thought, obviously, a naked portrait. Obviously. OK, so the one above the bed is a landscape one, is that right? It's a landscape and it's basically inspired by Kate Winslet in Titanic. That was the only reference I had to a nude painting that didn't happen. So it's me kind of draped across my sofa.

Fully naked? Completely naked. And I was going to get my hair to cover me, but then the artist convinced me to be brave and just push my hair back so I'm very naked and that's now hanging above my bed um and the second one came about because the artist Nicholas Baldian he thought my titanic pose was a little bit basic I think um so he suggested something a little bit more artistic and he told me to sit on my armchair um again with my hair pushed back and my arms sort of up resting on the armchair and it's very bold and it's very strong and when he showed me a photo of it I was terrified and I didn't love it because

I'm just really really naked and uh you can kind of see the the crease in my stomach you know like when you sit down and your stomach your stomach has yours your tummy has that and it just basically I just didn't feel like I looked as nice in it but then he decided to paint both and he sent me photos of both and actually I love them both in really different ways and that one that scared me is now hanging up in my living room where absolutely anyone who comes to my flat can see it. Nothing wrong with this but I believe it's a one bed flat as well so you know you're on pretty much most of the walls. It is very hard to escape the self-love in my flat. For some people self-love means something completely different but that's a

different discussion for a different day. As somebody already pointed out to me this morning in terms of these paintings um what are people's reactions who do come to your home I recognize we've not been going to each other's homes as much in the last you know nearly two years or so so yeah so far it's just been good friends who me and are kind of used to this sort of thing for me because I have just written a book that's also all about self-love. So most of my girlfriends are really proud of me and they sort of think, wow, I wish I was brave enough to do that. My guy friends are slightly scared.

I think it's probably the safest way to put it. And my mum is absolutely appalled and she just has no idea why I've done this. What was your mum's response when she saw them for the first time? She didn't comment. We didn't talk about them. But now you know she doesn't love it. No, it's more when I told her I was doing it.

She was just like, one, she was just really confused. But two, I think she did kind of worry that it would come across as a little bit arrogant um and I think that so she's in her 60s and I'm 31 and I do think there's a bit of a generational divide when it comes to this whole you know self-love movement and celebrating yourself just the way you are because for me self-love is not me saying I'm better than anybody else or you know I've got two nudes hanging in my flat because I think I look better than, you know, a Botticelli or a Rubens. It's it's more just that I'm saying this is who I am. Finally, after years of insecurity and not feeling good enough, I've managed to kind of switch this in a negative voice in my head.

And instead, I'm just celebrating myself as I am. And I approve of myself. And it's that simple. And this this is what you've been when you talk about this this self-love journey and you talk about this kind of movement there are people online doing a lot about this aren't there and you've been looking into this yourself as well as for the book but just to make yourself feel better yeah of course I am so what I call my self-love journey um sort of began in my late 20ss when I had a breakup and I left my job to go freelance. And suddenly I realized that I'd been getting so much validation from that relationship and from my job that I really just without it, I was kind of a bit of a mess.

And I really just had to learn to give it to myself and the way I did that was to firstly become really really aware of the negative voice in my head and to start to try and shift it so that instead of berating myself for every tiny thing I did wrong I'd forgive myself and try and swap it to say nice things about myself and I completely changed my social media feed so I no longer follow anyone that makes me feel bad about myself I don't follow any models I don't follow any magazine that just has you know people who make me feel bad about myself well you also did a campaign about your nose didn't you yes I did a campaign called hashtag side profile selfie which was me facing my biggest fear and posting a selfie of a side profile selfie of my nose which is quite big and I always hated my nose um and

following all these people these body positivity influencers gave me the confidence and the courage to do it myself because none of them were posting about noses so I thought you know what I'm gonna do it and it went completely viral which was crazy because at the time I still wasn't convinced I love my nose I was only sort of halfway there But suddenly I had thousands of people telling me it was beautiful. And actually that really helped. So you had to you had to get on board with it quite quickly. I did. Now, even when I had this portrait done of me and, you know, I didn't originally like my tummy in one of them, I did feel bad because I was like, oh, gosh, I'm a body positivity, body positivity influencer. I can't I can't say this I need to

love all of myself but this is like something I'm really learning which is that you know the whole thing about self-love and this is something I explore in my book 30 things I love about myself it's not it's not about getting to this place where you're you know every day you're super happy with the way you look and everything's perfect and you're just in this constant state of joy we're still human we're still going to have those days of falling into doubt and insecurity but when you've gone on this journey to love yourself and you've managed to you know become your own best friend and swap that nasty voice in your head for one that says nice things then those moments don't last very long those moments of doubt don't last long at all and is

it right that you stand in front of the mirror and say I love you out loud I can't believe I'm saying this on the radio um but yes yes I do how regularly do you say that to yourself every time I brush my teeth twice a day um good regularity well thank you when I first started doing it um I did feel like a complete idiot I was mortified but now I do it so often it's almost become a bit of a I don't know it's fun I like it and I'll say things to myself like you got this girl when I'm looking in the mirror and it sounds silly but I promise it works and that's I mean the reason I'm talking about this the reason I've written my book it's basically just to help other people do the same because it has made my life so much better that if I can just,

you know, I don't know, inspire anyone listening to try and do this. Well, we've got a message here from Nikki in Sussex. He said, I had a portrait done for my husband before I had my daughter. I think she's saying a naked portrait from what she's saying here, but maybe I'm wrong. I was so excited to have it done. I was lying on a sofa, very artfully done. That's what makes me think it's naked. Once it was finished, I suddenly became mortified and embarrassed that I'd been so vain. It's now hidden in a drawer face down. No, that makes me so sad.

Please get out. I think it's amazing you did that. And you know, it's for you and for your husband. You should definitely get it up in the house. Well, Louise had photo portraits taken before. She says, before and after my mastectomy, I'm going to have a third set done once the scars have faded

and I've had my nipple tattoo, which is a very powerful one. And actually a bit of a trend in some of these messages about life changes and body changes. Ruby says, I had a friend paint a nude portrait of me after a series of abusive relationships.

My body image was damaged and I began developing disordered eating. The nude portrait has helped remind me that my body is beautiful as it is literally a work of art. And another one here saying, I'm not sure I'd commission a naked painting of me, but in my living room,

I have a beautiful black and white photo of me breastfeeding my daughter, topless on a Spanish beach. I look naked, but it's very tasteful. You can't see anything. And every time I see it, I'm reminded of the power of the female body and it makes me proud of our breastfeeding journey,

which is from Steph, who's listening in Kent. So you can see a whole range there Radhika I'm still just imagining what it would be like and the first time you bring home a guy and they see that painting just above the bed has that happened yet no my mum's terrified of this happening but I think actually it's going to work in my favor I think I look great it's a preview right it's going to work in my favour. I think I look great. It's a preview, right? It's a total preview. Was it expensive? Ask someone else. So this artist, Nicholas Baldion, charges around £800 a portrait.

Well, there you go. I mean, I'm not meaning to advertise him, but someone was interested how much your investment was. The book's called 30 Things I Love About Myself. Radhika Sanghadi, thank you for being so game this morning.

Try to inspire everyone else to love themselves a little bit more, even if they can't quite face a naked picture or two, as you have it in your place. Well, talking of art and talking of how we express ourselves, shall we now turn to the world-renowned ballet dancer and artistic director of the English National Ballet, Tamara Rojo, who has decided to step down from her role after 10 years

to become the artistic director of the San Francisco Ballet. A rare woman running a ballet company, she's championed female choreographers, overseen the English National Ballet's move to new headquarters in East London and increased box office revenues while making headlines for a lot of their work. Earlier this week saw the launch of Ray Monda at the London Coliseum. It's a classic reworked by Tamara and it's the first time she's choreographed and directed a ballet. Tamara Rojo, good morning. Leaving on a high and

leaving on a first for yourself. Yes, I mean, when I started the journey to create Raymonda, of course, leaving EMB was not at all in my mind. You know, the whole process started five years ago about finding a piece of repertoire, of the classical repertoire, that we could somehow reimagine and bring to the audiences that was specific to English National Ballet. So it's been very important for me, for the company, to have works that were identifiable from English National Ballet and nobody else had Raimonda in its entirety in the repertoire for very good reasons and so I started conversations with my associates and colleagues and you know started the research process of those repertoire pieces that are not so known and eventually it was the music really

that convinced me that Raymonda deserved another chance for the audiences to discover it and then very quickly seemed that that restaging it in the Crimea war setting and with the image of Florence Nightingale as a leading figure was was the right thing to do and all of that happened before the pandemic. The opening night was supposed to be during the anniversary of the Florence Nightingale and nursery. It was all seemingly very straightforward. Of course, none of that happened. I had to create the ballet in bubbles of six. This is a piece that has 70 dancers

at any time on the stage. So it was far more challenging and stop-start and delayed performances and opening night. But eventually we made it. Well, yes, just very recently, only a couple of days ago, and the reviews have been pretty wonderful, I have to say, across the board. Let's just have, we've got a little bit of the music we can play.

And I think because you've mentioned it, it would be lovely for our listeners to hear. Why does the music speak to you? I mean, that part of the music that you put is kind of the most known, is the act three. I think there were other parts of the music that I wasn't familiar with because I myself have never performed this role in its entirety. And it's just so moving. It's so deep. It's such a beautiful, almost symphonic music, which for ballet is not very common. I mean, obviously,

Tchaikovsky's ballets are beautiful. But there's so many other classical ballets, like Don't Cue, that are a bit of a matchwork of different composers. But Glasunov, he felt from beginning to end that it was a symphony, that he all developed with the themes, that every character was recognizable, that it just had a different dimension. And in fact, later on, our music director, Gavin Sutherland, explained to me that when Tchaikovsky heard the score of Glasunov's Raimonda, he said that he would have never composed on lick if he had heard that before because he was so sublime. So it came highly recommended, I would say. That's a pretty high recommendation indeed. Why are you leaving? Ten years, the reign at English National Ballet? Why now?

I always felt that leading a publicly subsidised organisation is a privilege and that it should have an end. Also, the situation for the company is very good. Like you said in the introduction, we have a new headquarters that is going to give us a financial stability that is solid despite the pandemic. And thanks to the rescue package as well, we are financially stable. We have a great repertoire that opens international touring. We have audiences in the UK and all over the world. So it felt like I had done my job and that also dancers careers are short they are if they're lucky about 20 years they deserve to work with different views with different artistic

directors and different visions and I had been here 10 years by the time I leave it's going to be 10 and a half years so I just felt it was right. And off to San Francisco, a big life change. And I know you're going with your other half and also with your child. So it's going to be a huge change. Indeed. I mean, I have been living in Britain more than anywhere else. I've been here 25 years. I think I'm probably culturally British. London has been my home and my inspiration for so many years. So, yes, it's going to be difficult, but if not now, when?

Yeah, well, we wish you all the best with that. And I was looking back through the focus of your work, and there's a few elements that are specifically, you know, very woman orientated. And I wanted to start with talking about the fact that you had this realisation around halfway through, and I'm sure you've had it for longer, but it was reported around halfway through of your time that during your long career as a ballet dancer, you had never once performed in a work created by a woman. Yeah, indeed. I've never worked in a director

that had commissioned a woman. Nobody, while I was working for all these directors, commissioned a woman to create a piece of work. And while I worked with wonderful choreographers, and many of them had a lasting impact, I just had questions about, well, how is it to work with a female choreographer? And why are they not being commissioned? And so, yeah, once I was in the driving seat, as it were, I decided to do my part and to start supporting female voices. What was the reason? Why do you think there had been such a paucity of female choreographers commissioned? I think it's a, I don't know.

You don't have to ask somebody that was there before me. I mean, there really wasn't any good reasons for those women not to be commissioned. I was part, finally, in my time at the Royal Ballet, I was part in the choreographic workshops. That is something the dancers organized in their free time. And female dancers of the company were part of those workshops, as male dancers were. But only the male dancers ever were commissioned. None of the women dancers that created work for the choreographic workshops were ever given that chance.

And I still don't understand why that was. And some of them, like Cathy Marston, went on to become great success choreographically and directors of companies. So it's not like they didn't have the talent. So I genuinely don't know why. Well, one of the results of one of your commissions, she said, I remember seeing,

I was very lucky to see you performing as Frida Kahlo as part of that. And it was a truly memorable performance that I'm sure you can see bits of online. And it was just beautiful and utterly spectacular. So congratulations belatedly on that. The other element I wanted to bring up was the paucity of women running ballet companies, running dance companies. And I wonder what your view is on that. You talk about the ballet dancer and the dancer having a short career.

And then what happens to the women that don't go on? on um i mean i think that is a more complex conversation and more similar i will suggest to the conversations we have about women in leadership positions in general in society i think motherhood plays a role many dances delay motherhood and then they retire shortly after i mean happily all my lead ballerinas at English National Ballet have been mothers and they've continued to perform in fact if I may I was just going to say you've been quoted as saying being a mother makes you a better dancer well what I said was in fact that all the ballerinas that became mothers came back stronger focused, more artistically free, which was the most beautiful thing. In a way, they loved themselves more.

And so they were more courageous on the stage. So it's not that it makes you a better dancer. It's just that those that I have experienced have become better artists. But I would say, looking back in the past, however, if you look at Britain's ballet history, it was women which established it. It wasn't Nete de Valois. It was Madame Rambart. So it was female leaders that established ballet here in the United Kingdom. So it is strange that then for a few decades after those women left their organizations that was not the case I think that has changed as well slowly but I think the conversation is like I said very similar

to any other conversation about leadership why we still have that gap between men and women at the top just to return to that thought around motherhood I remember interviewing some dancers here on Women's Hour who had taken the lockdown to have babies. You've taken that opportunity across companies. And do you think that the learning or a silver lining of lockdown may be that female dancers perhaps don't delay or aren't as scared of it, especially with that message that you just gave about coming back focused and and more energized I mean I I don't know because like I said the careers are short and it is a it is a commitment I think what is more difficult is what happens afterwards and I think that's a conversation that's happening as well as parents in performing art it It is very challenging, especially if both parents work in the performing

arts. It means very long days, very late nights, travelling in school calendar time. So it's not an easy journey. And there's a lot of work to be done to encourage parents in performing arts um and it is as a as a director it is it is not easy to find solutions sometimes so so it is again a very complex and difficult um conversation that has to happen because people deserve to have as full lives as they wish to have and and you're going to be having that conversation in san francisco i'm sure, as well as many others. I'm sure I will. I think some of these issues are global. Yes, they certainly seem to be.

All the best with that. Any advice to whoever comes after you? Oh, I would say, you know, learn to love the company. EMB is an amazing company with the most wonderful people and artists. And be brave, be brave, because they are very brave. Well, it's certainly been something to behold your time and all the best. I know you're still there for some time until you go off. And all the best with the rest of the run for Raimundo. Raimundo, excuse me.

Hopefully no more interruptions like you've had when you started the planning for this. Tamara Rojo, thank you very much indeed. Well, talking there about babies and the planning of babies and how to have as full a life as some would say as possible. New research is being hailed as revolutionary from the University of Edinburgh, which could help women avoid, as it's being called, the IVF hormonal roller coaster, thanks to a new lab-grown egg treatment currently being prepared to be tested on sheep, human trials expected within five to ten years. Professor Evelyn Telfer joins me now, Chair of Reproductive Biology at the University of Edinburgh. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I may not have done that work justice. Can you explain what's the difference between what you do now

to prepare the body for stimulating eggs and what this would mean differently yeah so really um this work has been going on for a number of years and the model system that we've used is to be able to grow the immature eggs that we all have, that all women have within their ovaries, but this number declines as we get older. And these are the eggs that they disappear by the time we reach menopause. So we've been working on a system where we can activate them to grow outside the body and grow them to maturity where they can potentially be fertilized and then produce embryos. But the main reason, of course, was for basic scientific

knowledge. But then there clearly is an application, a very immediate clinical application for young women that are undergoing chemotherapy. They have small pieces of their ovary stored. They can have it stored, frozen, and then potentially it can be transplanted back. But for many women, the transplantation is not an option because the ovary could contain malignant cells. So that wouldn't, you know, transplantation would not be suitable at all. So the only option they might have is to be able to grow their eggs outside the body. Now, of course, you then see that when you start on a technique like this, the options open up. And that's where the sort of journalist jumped on the idea that we could take over the conventional IVF process, where women have to be stimulated hormonally. And there might be several cycles to retrieve the oocytes. Whereas with this technique, if it's successful,

there would be a small piece of ovary removed and then the eggs could be grown in the lab and you could do that several times without having to stimulate the woman. So it's very, very early days for that leap to have been made. Oh, absolutely. Very early days. I mean, we're in the process of the moment of testing the efficacy and the safety of this technique. I mean, we've got proof of principle that we can do it with human ovaries. But we want to show that any embryos that we can obtain through this process result in normal, healthy babies. Well, that's also been a criticism of egg freezing, hasn't it? The concern about how many, we're still at the beginning of knowing how many embryos will come from egg freezing and then how many successful births as well.

Yeah, correct. I mean, that's right. I mean, of course, egg freezing has been going on for some time, but egg freezing, when you freeze a mature egg, you're freezing quite a large structure and it's more prone to damage. Whereas with the material that we're freezing, they seem to survive the freezing process in a better way than mature eggs. So, yeah, I mean, with everything, with assisted reproductive technologies, we have a long way to go. But our next stage is testing it in our sheep model.

And we've been working with scientists at the University of Leeds, Helen Picton, and together we're making comparisons of the whole in vitro process and hopefully we'll be able to obtain lambs from this process and we can test if they're healthy or not. Well I suppose the best thing to say at this point is good luck with that because if there is anything to make ivf less invasive less of a hormonal roller coaster as and when it comes i'm sure many would welcome that having been through it myself i can attest to that being quite the roller coaster. But early days, interesting days, early days. Professor Evelyn Telfer, thank you very much indeed. She's chair of reproductive biology

at the University of Edinburgh. A message here, great piece on self-love, says Liz. Elevating the naked portrait, I have a cast of my vulva. It's painted gold and it's used as a bookend. Of course it is, Liz. It was done by a fabulous artist who also does boobs and bumps and bum casts and as a bookend. Of course it is, Liz. It was done by a fabulous artist who also does boobs and bumps and bum casts and is an incredible pioneer of vulva diversity. Sue says,

another one here, thank you for that, Liz. I have a naked picture of myself done by a dear friend as an apology for taking so long to finish refurbishing our kitchen. It was done in my 30s. I'll be 70 next week. It hangs in my bedroom and I love it. I've always been happy with my body, however imperfect it may be. And I still am. Kate, with regards to Tracey Emin, says when someone donates an object, whatever it is, it's been given away. No longer no control or use of the objects not under your control. The donated work is not Tracey Emin's. It's owned by Number 10. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. All right, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain.

And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever.

Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Oti Mabuse's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.