Woman's Hour - The future of the two-child benefit cap, Women of Windrush opera, what is next for Kamala Harris?

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

The Department for Work and Pensions has just published statistics on the number of people affected by the so-called two-child benefit cap, which restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in most households. Some campaigners have called the cap the biggest driver of the rise in child poverty in the UK and are demanding the new Labour government scrap it immediately. So what is the future of the policy? Anita Rani talks to BBC political correspondent Hannah Miller, to Sara Ogilvie, Director of Policy, Rights and Advocacy at the Child Poverty Action Group and to mother of three Olympia.Women of the Windrush is an opera which portrays the stories of women who travelled to the UK from the West Indies between the 1940’s and the 1960’s. It is being re-staged as part of the Re-discover Festival from StreetWise Opera which celebrates the impact of African and Caribbean heritage on contemporary British culture. Anita is joined by Festival’s director, the soprano Opera singer Abigail Kelly and Dr. Shirley Thompson OBE composer of Women of the Windrush.Will Kamala Harris step in as a the Democratic nominee in the US elections? Anita talks to Shannon Felton Spence, Communications and Political Strategist at Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center in Boston..And a recent article in the New York Times coined the phrase "medium friends" to describe “not our besties, but more than just acquaintances.” What is the significance of the mid-table friendship? Anita talks to Dr Susan MacDougall, a social anthropologist at Oxford University and to Shazia Mirza, a comedian and writer.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. There's a lot of competitions going on out there, you may have noticed. 2-1, that'll do, thank you very much. But today on Woman's Hour we are discussing the Friendship League. How you rank your friends and where do you think you sit in their rankings? Maybe you thought you were right up there in the elite inner circle

and then you were sighted out of a big day that made you realise the feeling wasn't mutual. Or someone you didn't think you were that close to came to you in an hour of need or confided in you or treats you like their best mate, even though you don't feel the same way? How do you react to that? And can friends go higher or lower in your ranking? Surely friendships can be made and cemented at different times in your life. In your world, can they come as easily as they can go? So think about your friendship league and give me the details. Send me a dramatic friendship story

from any era in your life. Later, I'll be discussing medium friends. These are the people who aren't quite up there as your besties, but who are more than casual acquaintances. What does it mean to be a medium friend? We'll be finding out. Ultimately, what are friendships all about?

Get involved in the programme. I would love to hear from you today. The text number as usual is 84844. You can also email me via our website or you can contact me on WhatsApp. It's 03700 100 444. Also on the programme, we glance across the Atlantic to see how Kamala Harris is placed should Joe Biden step away from the presidential race. And a real treat today, opera singer Abigail Kelly and Dr. Shirley Thompson OBE, composer of Women of the Windrush, will be here and there will be live music. That text number, once again, if you would like to get in touch with me, is 84844.

But I'd like to open today's programme by naming the three women who lost their lives on Tuesday, Carol, Louise and Hannah Hunt. They were the wife and daughters of BBC commentator John Hunt. Yesterday afternoon, a suspect was found following a full-scale search. Herefordshire police have said Tuesday's attack was targeted and carried out with a crossbow as well as possibly other weapons. I'm joined now by BBC correspondent Martine Croxall, who is at the scene in Bushy in Hertfordshire. Can you bring us up to date with the latest, please, Martine? Yes, of course, Anita. I'm standing at the entrance to ashland close which is where the hunt family live and overnight people have been bringing floral tributes to

carol louise and hannah a little later at about 11 o'clock at a local church here in bushy in hartfordshire there will be a vigil to remember the three women who have died and also to offer their support to john hunt who of course as we know is a member of the racing broadcasting community and that community too paying tribute to the family in the form of a minute's silence and also jockeys at different race courses today wearing black armbands as a mark of respect. In terms of the investigation there is still a cordon across the end of the cul-de-sac, a noticeable police presence as you would expect and that's because they want to offer reassurance to this community who are

trying to wrap their minds around what has happened here. And also to continue with the gathering of forensic evidence. We are expecting an update from Hertfordshire Police in the next hour or so. I think we're expecting it to be a written statement rather than anything on camera. But clearly, nobody we understand has been formally charged yet. But as we've been reporting, Kyle Clifford, who's 26, is detained, being treated for injuries that were sustained yesterday. No shots were fired, though, by the police as part of that manhunt

which ended with his detention in a cemetery in Enfield in North London. What more can you tell us about the three victims? Everyone you speak to cannot say kinder things about Carol, Louise and Hannah. The community around here just said they were the nicest family. They were kind and gentle and always had time for everybody. They held an immensely high regard. I was talking to the owner of a local cafe this morning and some of his customers who are disbelieving, of course, as you would be.

Who would ever expect something so brutal to happen anywhere, but particularly in a quiet community like this. Louise ran her own dog grooming business, so her customers have been paying tribute to her. And Hannah was a beauty therapist as well, and the companies that she worked for and the clients that she had are really very, very troubled and traumatised by what they're hearing, and like everybody, offering their condolences to John and the rest of the Hunt family.

There's been widespread public reaction to this. What's been said? Well, there are other comments being made, aren't there, about how, once again, this is women who have died, women who've been killed in their own home. And the word domestic is used and your home is supposed to be a safe place. And yes, on Tuesday night, this home was not safe for Carol, Louise and Hannah. And the statistics are shocking, aren't they? For about the last 20 years, it's been consistent that

a woman is killed by a man in the UK every three days. And it's more likely that when an incident like that happens, the woman concerned will know the person who has attacked her. The new Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, she's expressed shock that this has happened. And during the election campaign, she said that violence against women and girls needs to be treated as a national emergency. And here she is, you know, less than a week, just over a week into her job.

She has now got to address for the nation what's happening in terms of this violence that is meted out against women on an almost daily basis. Thank you, Martine. So just to recap, there's a vigil planned for 11 o'clock this morning? Yeah, there's a vigil at 11 o'clock. It's open to everyone of all faiths and no faiths at all. They're trying to respect the privacy of the family, but they also want to offer support. And if people wish to attend it's the

church of St James and St Paul on the high street in Bushy everybody is is very welcome indeed to attend the other thing that I would add is that the issue Anita of the access to crossbows is being looked at with some urgency by the government the security minister Dan Jarvis has been talking about that to the BBC today, saying that this is now a real priority for the Home Secretary. It is not illegal to possess a crossbow. You can buy them relatively easily. It is against the law to possess them in public.

And as we know, a crossbow is said to have been in part of this attack and these these killings and they are a lethal weapon the previous government before the general election was calling for evidence as to whether they needed to change the law about how accessible a crossbow was and whether there needs to be needs to be a tougher regulation to do with licensing like there is with firearms but they hadn't gone any further than that but it's clearly going to be something that this new government is going to want to address. Martine thank you for speaking to me this morning I'm sure we will be returning to this story 84844 is the number to text. Now, the Department for Work and Pensions has just published statistics on the number of people affected by the so-called two-child benefit cap,

which restricts child tax benefits and universal credit to the first two children in most households. There was a total of 1.3 million children living in a universal credit household and 270,000 children living in a child tax credit household, a total of 1.6 million children that was not receiving a child element or amount for at least one child due to being affected by this policy. There is an increase from 1.5 million last year. Some campaigners have called the cap the biggest driver of the rise in child poverty in the UK and are demanding the new Labour government scrap it immediately. Keir Starmer's government says it's committed to an ambitious and bold child poverty reduction strategy, but the Labour Party didn't promise to scrap it in their election manifesto.

Starmer said it's been a difficult choice, but insisted his party could not make unfunded promises. Hannah Miller is our BBC political correspondent and joins me now. Hannah, morning. Just briefly, just remind us what the two child benefit cap is and how it works. Morning, Anita. Yeah, well, the cap essentially prevents parents from claiming child tax credit or universal credit for more than two children. It was introduced in 2017 when it came into effect by the then Chancellor George Osborne. It was his idea, essentially, as a way of trying to save money from the welfare bill. bill but campaigners and some of those who you've mentioned already suggest it disproportionately affects people at the lower end of the earnings people in poorer households so there has been there's already a kind of the beginnings of a campaign and some Labour MPs newly elected just last week calling on the Labour government now to to lift the cap so that families would get the

benefits for all of the children that they have. I mentioned a few of the statistics in the opener there but it's the Department of Work and Pensions they've released figures half an hour ago can you talk us through some of them? Yeah so they have 1.6 million children overall across the country not receiving a child element of the benefits, essentially. So 1.6 million children affected by this policy. That's in about 24,000 households who had a third child after April 2017 when this was introduced. 24,000 have an exception because there are certain reasons why, say, you have a third child through having twins or perhaps the child has been adopted. There are some exceptions. But across the country, it is 370,000 households affected by this overall.

Thank you, Hannah. Earlier, I spoke to a woman called Olympia about her experience of the two-child cap benefit. We have three children. I'm aware that it was mine and my husband's choice to have children. The cap affects us because we're getting the money for the two children but spreading it between the three my husband works in retail distribution um and i work for a not-for-profit organization um helping uh children and families we work every hour we can so i work days and my husband work

nights i come in at half past eight at night my husband leaves at nine o'clock at night it's like a hello morning good night see you later bye I'm going to find out about the real world impact of um your income and how it's affecting your your family of five but before you do I was really interested in the fact that you instantly said you know we have three children I know it was choice. Do you feel like you have to justify? Yeah, because I'm very aware that people would be like, well, it was your choice to have more than two children. I get that.

It was my choice. But when we're asking for this cap to be got rid of or scrapped or whatever, we're not asking for, right, we want a million pounds each child and we were we're not asking for that so what would make a difference how much would make a difference to you so for my family personally my daughter goes up to year three next year so i have to pay for her school meals even half of so it's 12 pounds something a week even half of that five pound that would ease a lot that would mean five pound extra week it would mean that i don't have to pay the full 12 pound it would mean i could pay like seven pound

but we're not asking for millions i'm very aware that then there are millions of families and that would increase the the budget but what we're interested in hearing, Olympia, is you're like, no, no, it's exactly what you're telling us. The real impact of the benefit cap. So what is it that you're missing out on? And tell us a bit about the moments where you struggle the most. My son has never had a new school jumper because we know that he will always fit in my daughter's I'd love to buy him new school jumpers and we shouldn't be in that position like like I say we both work full-time we cannot physically work any more hours than we do I mean

school jumpers absolutely uniform kids need new uniforms because they get through them but what about something as basic as putting food on the table um so there has been instances especially when it gets to the end of the month where we've had to improvise and be like oh i've gone down there's no cereal there's no nothing so it's like oh there's a tin of beans to go between three children and that's like sometimes it's even the point of i know that they're going to get a snack at Like, oh, there's a tin of beans to go between three children. And that's like, sometimes it's even the point of, I know that they're going to get a snack at school. So, oh, quick, we're late, we're late, we have to go.

Knowing that they are going to get that snack at school because we can't have breakfast on the table. And that is the, sorry. That's okay. As a mum, I feel like I've failed. But you haven't failed. It's something so simple as putting breakfast on a table. Like, that's the bare minimum. What would you like the government to do?

Like I said, we're not asking for millions. We're not. We're just asking're just asking for a little bit. In my eyes, what makes my first two children more important than my third? That's what it comes down to. Who decides out of my three children which two get the money? Like I said, we're not asking for millions. We get, we're not just, it's just hard. Yeah.

What would you like to see the government do? What would you like to see happen? Either, so either scrap the two children gap at cap sorry or put in a provision where something as basic as breakfast like so there is a breakfast club at school but that's costs money something like do you not fund it for something something as basic as breakfast is a given. Yeah, yeah. Because we can do without, like, granted it crushed me when all our friends are going places, but we can make our children happy by coming up with things in the house. We can make do with the school jumpers.

The one thing that I'm really grateful is my kids haven't got a clue. My kids don't know any difference. They get loved. They laugh. They joke. They play. Everything. But it's just, it's breakfast.

But it's something as simple as a bowl of cereal, a slice of toast. Something. That was me speaking to Olympia about her experience of the two-child benefit cap early this morning. Well, Sarah Ogilvie is Director of Policy, Rights and Advocacy at the Child Poverty Action Group and she joins me now. Welcome to the studio, Sarah. How typical is Olympia's experience? We surveyed over 500 parents who are subject to the two-child limit and it is heartbreaking but this is absolutely typical of the experience of families who are subject to that limit. Families told us that they can't meet the basic needs of their children. So that means parents and kids go in hungry sometimes,

they can't buy clothes. We heard one mum who said that she had to go back to work four months after having her baby, she had to go back to work because she couldn't afford to pay for everything they needed. Otherwise, the impact that this policy is having on families is devastating and catastrophic. And it is responsible for the driving number of children who are living in poverty in the UK. And according to the new statistics that have come out, just this morning at 9.30, the figures have gone up. Do the figures surprise you? It's shocking, I think, when you think about the reality of life for those kids in the UK, but it's not really surprising to me.

We have known for some time that this was the impact that the policy was going to have on children. Government knows that that is the impact the policy is having on children. There is basically no way to stop child poverty from rising, let alone to reduce it unless we get rid of this policy. What do you get? What are the figures? So it varies a little bit, but normally for every child, you get around £3,500 a year. And that, as you have heard, is the difference between kids being able to have their breakfast or not. It is the difference between, you know, we heard one child isn't able to get swimming

lessons even though they live by the sea. It's sometimes about an ice cream on a sunny day. Kids not going on holidays. It is ranging from, you know, the day-to-day things, but right through to things like the levels of infant mortality in areas where deprivation is higher. You know, it's significantly worse. It's devastating life and death stuff, as well as the quality of life. Because Olympia's story, because we chatted for a little bit longer, you know, both her and her husband are in full time work and he works nights and she works days.

So they couldn't physically do any more work to earn money. If this policy was changed, what do you estimate families would be able to claim extra? So if the policy was scrapped overnight, then for your third child, you would be able to get that extra 3,500 a year. And actually, the majority of families who are subject to the limit have three children. So that would just be the difference for families. As you say, the majority of families who are subject to the policy are in work, there's not a lot that they can do otherwise. But you know, they can't afford childcare, they can't afford to pay their mortgages. And then if you think about the longer consequences of child poverty as well, it's not, you know, it's horrible to think of the

impact it has on kids, but then it affects educational outcomes. Often, if you grow up in poverty, you risk having poorer health when you grow up, your life expectancy will be shorter. And so for children, for then as we grow up into adults, and then for society as a whole, the new government has committed to a bold and ambitious child poverty strategy, which really does fill me with hope because it has been a very difficult time for children and families living in poverty over the past couple of years. But what about the previous government's choice to do it? You know, we have got to claw back money somewhere.

And this is where they chose to do it. I mean, what I would say is that we know that the policy didn't actually have an impact on the number of children that families have. So the government's aim in that wasn't met. But also, you know, this is about kids. And, you know, if you are going to draw dividing lines, if you are going to have to make difficult decisions, do you make them about the poorest kids in society?

You know, I'm not sure that you should. But also, you know, we know, even in very practical terms, it costs around 40 billion to public services to deal with the consequences of child poverty. So you might as well spend that money at the start rather than at the end. Well, we've had a statement from the Work and Pensions Secretary of State, Liz Kendall MP, saying too many children are growing up in poverty and this is a stain on

our society. We will work to give every child the best start in life by delivering our manifesto commitment to implement an ambitious strategy to reduce child poverty. I will hold critical meetings with charities and experts next week to get this urgent work underway. What's your reaction to that? I mean I'm really looking forward to those conversations. And let's be honest, the most cost effective way to reduce child poverty is to scrap the two child limit. It would cost £1.7 billion a year. It would lift 300 kids out of poverty straight away. And you would reduce what's called the depth of poverty for around 700,000 more kids.

So in those conversations, I'm really looking forward to hearing the plans. But also we will be pushing them to do this as quickly as they possibly can. Hannah, I'm going to bring you back in because what is Labour's position on the two child benefit cap? What do we know? Why are they divided over this issue? I mean, it's been quite an interesting thing to watch this develop because during the election campaign, Keir Starmer said that lifting the cap was the number one thing that he'd like to do, but then went on to say that he couldn't necessarily afford to. And Olympia mentioned free breakfast clubs. The Labour Party do have a policy to introduce free breakfast clubs in every primary school, which is one of the measures I imagine that they would say kind of will feed into this child poverty strategy that they keep talking about but this is something that Labour MPs frankly haven't liked the two-child cap

for really quite a long time. I remember speaking to some of them well last year in the middle of last year and they were sort of at that point keeping their powder dry and saying well there's no point being divided on this until we get into government. And now that they are in government, some of them who feel strongly about it really do have the chance to try and do something about it. But of course, the Labour Party has a huge majority in Parliament. Keir Starmer has, as I say, made a point of saying, well, yes, this is something I'd like to do, but I can't afford to. It's far from clear that with a huge majority, he will feel any need necessarily to change that position at the moment but I think it would be wrong to say that they're

blind to it as a problem. They're clearly not. They're making a choice about what is affordable and what they say isn't. Thank you both of you for talking to me about that. Sarah Ogilvie, Child Poverty Action Group, Director of Policy rights and advocacy and bbc correspondent hannah miller and we also heard from the mother of three olympia thank you text number is eight four eight four four um i'm going to read out some of your messages lots of you getting in touch because we have uh we're going to be talking about um middle friends a little bit later. So we're talking about friendship leagues this morning. So from Caroline, we've had,

I lost my very special daughter, Lily, in April. She was only 27. She was in hospital for six weeks, and despite all the efforts of the wonderful ICU staff, they couldn't save her. Losing a child, however old, is just so terrible. I now know who my true friends are some old friends have barely been in touch others who I'd not seen for years have come back into my life

but the shining star has been the new friend who I made through Lily's hospital admission one of the ICU nurses she's continued to keep in touch and has really helped me although sometimes a painful reminder of Lily she's so empathetic i feel i've made a lifelong friend it's taught me to concentrate on the friends and family who really do have time for you when you need that support 848 i'm sarah 11 and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories i've ever covered there was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, for something really special.

Women of the Windrush is an opera which portrays the stories of women who travelled to the UK from the West Indies between the 1940s and the 1960s. It's been restaged as part of the Rediscover Festival from Streetwise Opera, which celebrates the impact of African and Caribbean heritage on contemporary British culture. With me now, I'm delighted to say, is the festival's director and soprano, opera singer Abigail Kelly, and Dr Shirley Thompson OBE, composer of Women of the Windrush, which is amongst many of her compositions for opera, orchestra, stage, ballet, including music for the coronation of King Charles III. It is delightful to have you both here. Thank you so much for having us.

Shirley, for those who haven't seen it, tell us a bit more. What can people expect to see and hear from Women of the Windrush? Thank you. Nina, tell us a bit more. What can people expect to see and hear from Women of the Windrush? Thank you. Well, it's a mixture, an integration of archive film, a bit of dance, interviews that were made back in 30 years ago of persons, women, who arrived to settle in England in the 1950s and 1960s. These women are a range in what they do, a concert pianist, a woman who comes over to join her husband who's a cricketer, a woman who comes to

take up her training as a nurse and another woman who comes to Nottingham to speak to marry her fiance. So it's a range of women and they speak very candidly about what it was like to settle in the UK in different parts of the country during the 1950s and 60s and they're very funny they're very engaging and I've woven around this the musical aspect which is embodied in the Windrush Woman, which is, in this case, Abigail Kelly, who plays the Windrush Woman, and she has a character's name. All of that is interspersed through the opera. How magical.

I'm very excited, and you should all be too, listening, because, Abigail, you're going to be singing something from it in a moment. What's it like to sing this opera?'re on a you're on stage for the whole time with as as she's just described the backdrop of the pictures of the women from the Windrush generation behind you what's it like to stand there and and sing this tell us about your role in it well so I sort of play a dual role of a woman who is in the present who is discovering items from the past and then through that in fact transforming during the opera to become one of those women from the past so it's it's a wonderful experience actually inhabiting those two parts of history and it's quite an

intense experience being on stage all by yourself for about an hour singing non-stop um but yeah I won a challenge that I absolutely relish. So how do you get through it obviously it's a challenge because it's physically very demanding but what about the sort of the dual the emotional aspects of what what you're actually doing as a black woman there standing performing this story? Oh, it's amazing because I do feel like there's, you know, my ancestry, my background, all of my relatives who've been through the same sort of thing are standing there with me as well and getting me through this performance.

In fact, I've got a picture of my aunts and grandmothers that I have a little bit of a look at during the performance. So that really brings it into focus for me, the personal side of the performance too. Where did this idea come from, Shirley? Oh, big question. I was making films for the BBC back in the early 90s, actually, a filmmaker. So you're a pioneer in many, many, many different lanes there. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. And I got the opportunity to make a film about the, well, I decided to make a film about my parents' generation because I was making comparable documentaries and I wasn't seeing any images of ourselves, myself on television, and neither was this period in history being

documented. So I thought he's a great opportunity. So in 1991, I won a grant from the Arts Council to make this film and decided that I would interview my mother, who the film is really central to. And I wanted to get a variety of characters to represent um several demographics um of persons that arrived here so I think interviewing somebody such as Maxine Franklin who's a concert who is a concert pianist that came over here in the 60s and was studying at the Royal College of Music has always becomes a surprise to people to persons who do not realise that we've had a strong huge tradition of persons coming from the Caribbean and Africa for centuries so really the Windrush generation was not a new

thing in terms of a settlement of African and Caribbean persons but this was a particular period to be documented. The stories that aren't told? Absolutely, that's what I wanted to do, stories not told. And I've written a whole series of these stories that have not been told in several operas that I've written. And am I right in thinking, Abigail, that your mother really empowered you to make sure that you were aware of these stories whilst you were growing up?

Absolutely. So my parents did a fantastic job at always showing me what the Caribbean or the black equivalent was. So I, for a time, was absolutely obsessed with Marilyn Monroe, as I think a lot of young kids might be. You know, they look back at the past and they're like, oh, gosh, the red lips, this, that and the other. But my mother was always there saying, well, what about Dorothy Dandridge? Here is this person who is, you know, doing the same thing, same period of time. So yeah, my mom was very much a part of just making sure that I saw the women that looked like me doing the things that I was into and giving me those opportunities to listen to those you know black voices those opera singers like Riri Grist and like um Jessie Norman yeah and now uh you want to do the same you want opera to include stronger and empowered roles for women

absolutely how do you go about that I mean you are you've got obviously any people to write them for you thank you very much Shirley but how do you go about that? I think it's really important to go back to kind of the source. I think when we start to empower, say, a new generation of opera goers to create their own stories, and that's exactly what we're doing with the Rediscover Festival. We are utilising the past, using the present, being inspired by composers of, you know, potentially different heritages from other peoples. And we are allowing people to go, right, so I could actually write an opera about my life and my culture. I could write an opera that has a strong female character. I could write an opera about children a strong female character I could write an opera about children do you know what I mean so I think it's going back to the source and making

sure that kids who are the new operatic audience and who are the new set of composers have that ability to go right yeah I can write what I want to write what What's it like working together? Oh, it's fun. I'm usually, you know, there counting all of the many notes that Shirley's written down on a piece of paper. Does she need lots of notes? She doesn't need notes, surely. How is it, Shirley, working with Abigail? Yeah, well, what's great about Abigail is that she does get what I do. And conceptually, I started this whole idea of empowering women opera singers because I, with my PhD, I wrote about, I started a series called Heroines of Opera, which was taking away the idea of the femme fatale, which you'll see with Carmen and Tosca and all these characters.

And I was looking for strong female characters and I wasn't finding any. They all died or they all were poisoned or something. So I started this whole idea of having strong female characters with my series, Herons of Opera, which includes the woman who refused to dance, Dido Elizabeth Bell, the women of the Windrush, all strong, Queen Nanny of the Maroons. So Abigail has had a lot to build on because I started this whole idea of empowering, changing the whole narrative around opera and how certainly women are perceived in it. And you're doing it. Both of you are actually doing it. Thank you. It's very good to see.

You mentioned that you interviewed your mother way back when you were starting out on this project. That's right. Huge inspiration for you? She is my inspiration. We need to name check. Oh, Hyacinth Evadne Thompson. She's a nurse and tiny woman,

but so full of vigour and strength and highly intelligent and very powerful, although very quiet, and has inspired so many people with her philanthropy, her work ethic, her beauty. She's actually the figure that we used to promote the opera Women of the Windrush. Is that on the photograph? Yes, she's absolutely gorgeous in this beautiful dress.

At some point, we'll do a version of Women of the Windrush where I get to wear that dress. Oh, yes. I'm sure it will come around. Please, can you tell us about the piece you're going to be performing for us Abigail Sure, well this is called Psalm to the Windrush and it's actually the piece that opens the entire opera and you'll hear from the get go

it's really rousing it's an ode to all of those brave people that made that journey decided to change their lives so drastically, and how they worked hard, but they always felt held by a higher power, by God, by their faith, that things would work out for them in this new land. Things would work out for them. And not too many generations later,

two amazing women would be sitting here almost telling me about this wonderful opera. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And Abigail Kelly and Dr. Shirley Thompson, thank you for coming in to talk to me about Women of the Windrush. Thank you. Wonderful interview. Lots of you getting in touch about friendships. Someone said my partner and I had what we thought would be a caring loving

relationship with another couple, we listened to their problems helped them whenever we could, they'd been invited to our daughter's wedding for over a year but four days ago, four days before they pulled out citing their family priorities it shocked, hurt and angered us we went from an intimate contact to nothing overnight, that shock

has made us re-evaluate all our friendships a truly profound shift in our approach to are they friends or just contact and nothing overnight. That shock has made us re-evaluate all our friendships, a truly profound shift in our approach to are they friends or just acquaintances? 84844. Now, it was another difficult day yesterday for President Biden's presidential election campaign as further calls came for him to step down. Nancy Pelosi, a member of the Democratic Party and former Speaker of the House of Representatives, said on MSNBC news channel that time is running out, but I want him to do whatever he decides to do rather than declaring Biden should stay in. And George Clooney, a high profile Biden supporter and fundraiser, asked Biden to leave the race. As calls grow louder for the president to step aside,

some high profile Democrats are unifying behind his vice president, 59 year old Kamala Harris, as the natural candidate to replace him. Well, joining me now from Boston to discuss Kamala Harris's prospects is Shannon Felton-Spence, communications and political strategist at Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center in Boston. A very good early morning to you and welcome to Woman's Hour, Shannon. How significant was Nancy Pelosi's comment yesterday? What can we read into it? Yeah, Nancy Pelosi, I mean, she immediately tried to walk back the comment, but the most significant thing is that she is the most senior Democrat to come out. So there are sort of only

a handful of Democrats that names have been tossed out as it would be a very serious signal if they said something publicly about Joe Biden's viability of the candidate. And Nancy Pelosi sort of did that yesterday. You know, what she said was, I want him to do what he decides. I will back him either way, but he needs to decide in the next couple of days because time is running out. And what that sort of allowed to happen was she kicked the door open for providing sort of Nancy Pelosi type cover to other Democrats that are currently sitting in government if they wanted to come forward more publicly, because it has been a slow trickle.

But nobody very, very senior has said anything yet until yesterday. So it was it was definitely a turning point in the saga. So talk us through what would happen if Biden pulled out of the presidential election? How likely is it that Kamala would become the Democratic Party's presidential candidate? So those are two very different questions. I'm not sure we know exactly how it would go down. If he did make that decision. It is absolutely true. The only person that can make the decision is the president himself. And so in the last several weeks, that's sort of been the difficulty. And he has been the one who is strongly saying that I'm still in the race. And we've heard that people around him are

trying to persuade him that that might not be the best choice. But it's absolutely right that he has to be the one to make the decision. Nobody can force him out. So there's that. Yeah. Has Kamala Harris said anything about President Biden's fitness for office? Has she made a comment? Listen, it's her boss. So she's going to stand behind him. And if there's one thing that we know about the Democrats in the U.S., it's that they sort of they get in line. And this is the president. He's the most powerful man in the world. And so it's that they sort of, they get in line. And this is the president. He's the most powerful man in the world. And so it takes a lot of courage and bravery to come out and say

anything. And no, Kamala Harris has not, other than being very, very strong in his camp that he is fit for office and they can win this race. But I think that you're right. I mean, we're not sure how this would go down if he were to decide that he wasn't the best candidate to win the race. But I am of the opinion that the answer is right in front of him, which is Vice President Harris. Does she have support? Does she have the support? I mean, she's the Democrats leading voice on various things like abortion rights and women's reproductive rights. Do you think that's going to win her more support? Listen, it's very interesting. She is not all that popular, but she's not popular with people that wouldn't vote for her anyways, right? So I think that there's an avenue there for her to work with. And also, what Americans are just

longing for and begging for is some new options. And so I think that she's extremely intelligent. They've been rolling her out more in the last couple of weeks after the debate And so I think that she is, she's extremely intelligent. They've been rolling her out more in the, in the last couple of weeks after the debate, because I think any, any person that sort of knows, uh, knows if they need to replace him, she's the most obvious choice. So they've been giving her a bigger platform and a bigger presence in the past two weeks. But also, you know, she's really running with that. She is intelligent. She is vibrant. She is. I'm saying all of these sort of words that describe somebody that is not very, very old. But no, she's a she's a perfect she's a perfect person to step into that role. And she's already the vice president. She's already on the ticket. So anybody that is voting for President Biden is already voting for Vice President Harris as a number two. Could she beat Trump, though? Listen, I think I think she could. And here's why. It

would excite the base. It would excite the Democrats and it would probably pull over some independents. So while many of us are sitting here going, God, these are my two options. These were my options four years ago. You know, who's going to be able to do the job for the next four years after this? I think, you know, really inserting some energy and some new voices into this race, even though it's a familiar voice, is a really obvious choice and would really energize the Democratic voter base. And I think she could beat him. Plus, listen, she is smart. She's a former prosecutor. She is very, very quick. And she would eat Trump alive in a debate. Do you think she would be? Do you think she's been underestimated somewhat because she's a woman of color? Do I think she's been underestimated? Probably. Yes. It's also VP is a very tough role in America. It doesn't have a very clear portfolio. It's largely ceremonial. And so she has really been in the wings. The president really has the full spotlight. So I'm not even sure we've seen her to

her full potential. But yes, I mean, definitely, I'm sure she has been underestimated because she's a woman and because she's a woman of color. And popularity with young voters, does she have that? You know, it's hard to tell. I think that people are starting to get excited about the idea of somebody new. She's been very, very strong on abortion and reproductive rights. She really stepped into her own there. She had a couple of other policy portfolios early on that she fumbled a little bit. But reproductive rights and abortion is really going to drive this election. It is what makes people show up at the voting booth and tick the box for Democrats. And, you know, she has really stepped into that role. So I think that she's energized certain demographics across the country. And I think they would show up for her. We'll leave it with watch this space and maybe we'll talk to you again. Yeah, watch this space. Exactly.

Thank you so much for speaking to us, Shannon Felton Spence. 84844 is the number to text. Now, if our next story was an episode from a certain u.s sitcom it would be called the one with the medium friend what is a medium friend i hear you ask well a recent article in the new york times described them as not our besties but more than just acquaintances you may share a history with them because you work together or you may you know just have a laugh every time you meet but for some reason you only hold them at arm's length. So what does it say about us that we put people in such categories and have, however you felt, when the person you regarded as your bestie sees you just as a middling, alright, average mate?

Well, with me to discuss this is Dr. Susan McDougall, a social anthropologist at Oxford University and Shazia Mirza, comedian and writer. I'm going to come to you first, Susan. What do you think about this term, medium friends? You know, I get quite a kick out of it. To me, it really, I think if we think about friendship historically, the medium friend is probably quite common, right? We would have looked to our friends to be an important part of our social network, one of the ways we build community, and we would kind of expect friendships to kind of grow closer and less close

throughout the life course. So I think our interest in kind of medium friends as maybe a problem indicates a bit about how time poor we are, right? How we've become very sort of sensitive to our time resource. And also maybe geographically dispersed. There's a lot of people who are in this friend category poor we are right how we've become very sort of sensitive to our time resource uh and so and also maybe geographically dispersed there's a lot of people who are in this friend category but aren't

around to be kind of providing material support in the way that we would you know kind of historically think of friends serving us so maybe there's kind of a new problem around what do we do with this sort of medium category um yeah that says to me there's a lot changing. Fascinating stuff. Now, Shazia, as a high profile comedian, you've probably got tons of mates. Well, as you know, Anita, I'm very popular. I have a lot of friends. I've got 3000 on Facebook. I've got 147,000 on Instagram. And I get new requests every day. I have to turn people away and say, I'm sorry, I'm full. But a lot of these people I do talk to more than my family. They're always messaging me.

So I could actually call them my friends. But as a medium friend. What do you think about that? I mean, they are friends who I maybe see once every three months. And that's great because I can really only take them in small doses. Right. You don't have to name anybody, but give us properly. Yeah, well, Brenda, my friend Brenda, I mean, she's great every three months.

But the thing is, I mean, I don't talk to them about everything. You know, it's kind of lighthearted, pizza, you know, shopping, celebrities, you know. My closest friends who I've only got, say, three or four of, I mean, I speak to them about everything, you know, life, death, parents, piles, everything, you know. They are the closest ones.

They have that privilege. But the thing is, I mean, you know, you do have to have medium friends because you don't want heavy conversation all the time. You don't want deep all the time. You do need light and fluffy. And I think medium friends are really good for that. Susan, I understand that you're often seen as a medium friend

because you're an expat. Because you're not... Something to be quoted on this. I really think that what is amazing about friendship, right, is that you don't have to pick... You don't have to have... I mean, I think we have the kind of example of romantic monogamous relationships, where you kind of have to pick one person and be with them for your whole life and make this massive investment.

And in friendship, you don't have to choose. This is one of the things that kind of defines it. You don't have a medium husband, and you don't have a medium cousin, but you can have a medium friend, which is great. And I really appreciate my medium friends. I love to kind of revisit these different times in my life when I've been close with different people. It's really beautiful. How do they serve as medium friends? Because you're right, we are time poor and we haven't got enough and we all have busy lives and we spend so much time talking to these really good friends that we've made online that we're never going to meet in our lives. So when have we possibly got time for IRL friends? So what is the benefit and

how do they serve us? I'm quite interested in the sort of interaction between the transactional element of friendship. Well, so I think what we see in a lot of public health research is that loneliness is very bad for you. It really makes you ill. There's a kind of oft cited statistic from Julianne Holt-Munstadt's research that being lonely is as bad for you as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, right? This is a very, like, it's a lethal thing to not have friends. And your medium friends, you know, it's wonderful to have a kind of soul sister or soul brother. I mean, these are conceptualized differently in different genders. I've used the word soul sister before, right? You know, someone that you're really deeply

connected to, that's amazing. But just to have a kind of crew that, you know, invite you to barbecues or can go sit by the pool with you on a nice afternoon, it really fills your life with kind of fun, lightness, joy. Like Shanti was saying, you don't have to be kind of seeing this person every day to enjoy their presence in your life. They also create community, right? It's a, if you have one medium friend, one-on-one, that's one thing, but to have a circle of 10 or 15 medium friends means you can have quite a good housewarming, right? It's a vibrancy that comes from a network of medium friends. I like this, Susan. I'm nodding along with this. This is making a lot of sense to me. Have you ever thought that you were more than a medium? You thought you were closer and then you realized actually you were just a medium friend.

Yeah, I did. I found out, you know, when one of my friends traded me in for a better offer and I saw her having a good time on Instagram. And I was thinking, now I know why you traded me in. She cancelled at the last minute because she got a better offer. So I think I'm a medium friend to a lot of people. Well, listen to this. I'm going to read out this. It's an anonymous message. I met a woman at work in lot of people. Well, listen to this. I'm going to read out this. It's an anonymous message.

I met a woman at work in my 30s who were friends for 15 years. We shared breakups, parents passing away. Four years ago, she started to spend time with a friend from college. I asked her to go to a concert with me. I was told she'd already been invited by her other mate and that I should not force her to choose between us. I suggested we all go together, but it seems this was not an option. She told me she couldn't be friends um and it still

hurts i i totally understand that you know can you relate to that you were number one and now you're number four you've been demoted i'll take that personally um what do you think about people who say their mums are their closest friends this is just disgraceful i mean how can you be best friends with your mum your Your mum is your mum. She lays down the law. You cannot go clubbing with your mother. This needs to be stopped immediately. She loves you.

She loves you. Susan, what do we think? We're going to run out of time, but I need to get some more information out of you. What do we think about friendship hierarchy? Just generally that we talk about people as being best friends uh you know i think i always think about the elena ferranti novels right but it's like there's this kind of sense that a best friend is better than a medium friend and if you look at that particular story it really shows how like a lifelong super deep friendship is not necessarily preferable this can be like a deeply painful experience to be in a best friendship as well. You know, we live our lives through our relationships,

right? So a deep relationship is going to have a massive depth of emotion. So I'm all about, you know, it's wonderful if you achieve a best friend at a certain point in your life. But that doesn't, first of all, it doesn't preclude that you don't, that you have bad experiences with that person or that you're sad, right? We can't avoid sadness by categorizing our friends appropriately. Um, and also again, the blessing of friendship is that you don't have to choose. You can have best friends and medium friends and, and enjoy your life. Shazia, as someone as popular as you, right?

When people meet you and then you kind of go, oh yeah, I'll meet, I'll, here's my number. Yes. And they're like, great. Shazia is as someone as popular as you, when people meet you and then you kind of go, oh, yeah, here's my number. And they're like, great, Shazia's my best mate. How do you manage the expectations? I'm always a let down, as comedians are. You know, we're never as funny in real life as we are on stage. And people go, oh, she was such a disappointment. I thought she'd be funnier. I've heard people say that about me.

But, you know, the public perception is different to how you are in real life. And, you know, a friendship is really special. I can't be entertaining to you 24 hours a day. I'm so sorry. I don't have the energy. But she can be when she's on Woman's Hour, which is delightful. I'm going to read out a few more messages because lots of people got in touch. I described a woman who was at the birth of my children and godmother to our youngest as my best friend, only for her to say she didn't feel the same.

I realized you can't make someone else care about you. She's still important to me, but I no longer contact her and enjoy her company when we come across one another. We have to accept we are not as important to others. It doesn't make us worthless. It means you can enjoy the good bits and get on with the rest of your life that seems like good advice and saffron says i turned 50 in april as an introvert i did not want to have a party but i did want to see my friends to celebrate so i wrote to 17 friends and two family members who i'd like to spend time with

during my 50th year almost all of them replied enthusiastically to accept the invite but i was curious about the four who didn't respond or follow up after initial yes, as I had assumed they were strong friends. This has helped me redefine friendship at 50. I mean, wonderfully profound. And I think you can just keep redefining friendships, however old you are. Dr. Susan McDougall, thank you so much. Shazia, always a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks to all of you. Join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. How would a world heavyweight boxing champion call if they were left alone on a desert island? When you're preparing for a fight, a big part of it is isolation, this preparation to get ready for battle and to be victorious. Hello, I'm Laurenuren laverne presenter

of desert island discs from bbc radio 4 and i'm here to tell you about a very special castaway the world heavyweight boxing champion anthony joshua when you look at a lion and they're showing affection you think oh they're so amazing i'd love to give one of those a cuddle then you put a gazelle in front of a lion and you see his pupil widen. I feel we all have that nature, right? When it's time to eat, I love to hunt. That's just in my nature. Anthony Joshua on Desert Island Discs.

Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.