Woman's Hour - The Government's Early Years review, Andrea McLean, Celebrating 'alonement'

Episode Date: September 28, 2020

The government is carrying out a review into how to improve health outcomes for babies and children from disadvantaged backgrounds. The Early Years development review will look at the critical first two and a half years of life which has a significant impact on the physical health, mental health and opportunity throughout life. We hear from the government's Early Years adviser Andrea Leadsom MP.In August we spoke to Alexandra Wilson about her book “In Black and White” - breaking down barriers of race and class to become a barrister. Last week she tweeted how she’d been mistaken for a defendant three times in one day in court. She joins Jane. Live, learn and thrive – that’ what Andrea McLean wants us to be able to achieve with the help of her new book “This Girl is on Fire”. In it she shares her own experiences of overcoming toxic relationships, a breakdown and burnout to help us see that we can change ourselves and change our life. There are many terms that are used to describe spending time alone, but most of them have negative connotations. Journalist Francesca Specter has coined the term “alonement” to describe celebrating the time you spend alone. She shares the inspiration behind the term, how it has helped her during lockdown, and how we can all learn the skills of solitude. A new study led by researchers at UCL and York University, Canada, shows that skin to skin contact with a parent reduces how strongly a newborn baby’s brain responds to a painful medical jab. Dr Laura Jones explains.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Monday, the 28th of September 2020. Hi there, good morning. Hope you had a reasonable weekend and welcome to the programme. Busy week on Woman's Hour this week. Don't forget Thursday is Dame Jenny Murray's very final edition of the programme. Make sure you're here on Thursday. I'll tell you a little bit more about what's going to happen on Thursday later in this programme. You might recall that back in August, Jenny talked to the young British barrister, Alexandra Wilson.

Alexandra is very young. She also happens to be black. And last week, she tweeted that she'd been mistaken for a defendant three times in a single day. Alexandra is on the programme today. And we also have a couple of Andreas. Andrea McLean, who's written a book called This Girl Is On Fire. But we're starting, she's a loose woman as well, Andrea.

So we're letting a loose woman loose on the hour this morning. So we'll talk to her a little later. But we're starting with another Andrea, Andrea Leadsom, who is the former business secretary and in charge of the government's early years development review, which is looking at the first two and a half years of a child's life. Andrea, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, these are really important years.

Why are they so important? Well, the period from conception to the age of two are the time in which the building blocks for good lifelong emotional and largely physical health are laid down. So that period when a tiny first fetus and then an infant comes along are absolutely critical to the rest of their life. So this review is designed to look at what policies and services and what kind of join up can actually help families to give every baby the best start in life. And why is this of such interest to you? Well, I've been involved with early years support for well over 20 years now. I mean, it first started because with my first child, I had postnatal depression and I couldn't believe how helpless and hopeless it made everything feel. And it is an illness like any other. And I was really pleased that it didn't last long. I went back to work and was fine, but it's always stayed with me that actually it really does hamper your ability to be able to relate to your baby,

to provide the kind of attention that a new baby needs. And of course, for many parents, it's not necessarily just postnatal depression, but it might be poverty. It might be the fear of losing your partner or losing your job. So there are all sorts of reasons why families do need extra support. Yes. And you, of reasons why families do need extra support. Yes. And you, of course, went through that, as I'm sure you'd be more than happy to acknowledge, with certain material comforts, which may not be available to everybody. It can be an exceptionally tough time in a woman's life, well, in a family's life, actually, welcoming, particularly perhaps a first child. So how do people get involved if they are anxious to take part, if they feel they've got something going on in their life that you need to know

about? What do they do? Well, we have at the moment, we've launched a questionnaire for families to feed in with what exactly their experience has been, you know, whether they are the parents themselves or grandparents or carers, volunteers, health service professionals. And that's available on the gov.uk website, looking at the early years healthy development review questionnaire. We've already had a lot of responses. And what's quite interesting is people are saying that the advice that they really wanted help for that they didn't get so well, so far, people are saying was baby development and then closely followed by breastfeeding. And behind that is your own mental health and well-being. So, you know, families do know what kind of support they need.

And at the moment, it's very much good in parts and not good enough in other areas. Well, there's a link on the Women's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour if anybody wants to contribute. Obviously, Andrea, people are going to be saying, well, yes, we know there are gaps that people are missing out significantly at the moment. And the fault lies with the government. What do you say to them? I mean, obviously, the government provides the services, but actually, having been working on this area for some years now, what I can say is that we have a superb set of professionals, whether in midwifery, health visiting, in children's centres, in social services, and yet very often their concern is that they're not able to speak to each other, the services aren't necessarily joined up. There are silos across Whitehall where different professionals work through different reporting lines, and that makes it quite difficult for them to be really focused on the family from the family's perspective. Yeah, well, of course,

a lot of people at the moment will point to the lack of women in decision-making roles within the heart of this government. What would you say to that? I don't see that as being a key issue here. You know, the Prime Minister himself is the one who has enabled me to carry out this review. And Matt Hancock, the Secretary of State for Health is very much supporting it. And Joe Churchill, the health minister, is the minister sponsoring it. So there's no shortage of commitment.

Bearing all that in mind, can you give me a recent example of the government showing that it was completely in tune with the needs of working families in Britain? Well, I think where to start, I mean, what the Treasury has done in trying to support people during the COVID pandemic to keep jobs open, to keep businesses going, all of the financial support. There's been the work to try and have an eviction moratorium so that people don't lose their homes if they're furloughed or about to lose their jobs. I mean, this has been an unprecedented time. And I do think that the government has worked incredibly hard

to make sure that support is there for families to get through. OK, I'm not sure everyone would agree with that. Certainly, Labour say there's been no targeted support at all for the early years and childcare sectors. And certainly that is where this questionnaire is designed to really understand this. And anecdotally, speaking to families, certainly there has been a massive problem with women who've not been able

to take a partner along to a scan, women whose partners had to leave the delivery suite soon after delivering a baby. But at the same time, other people say that it's been really helpful to them, rather than sort of waiting days or even weeks for an appointment with a health visitor, to be able to get a quick zoom call face to face with a health professional and so actually what's quite interesting is in the replies to the questionnaire so far on the question did you get the support and services you need 43% say no and 43% say yes so I mean it is the living embodiment of a mixed picture isn't it let's put it that way there's also you've got to acknowledge the fact that initially those people who were able to work I think that's the living embodiment of a mixed picture, isn't it? Yes, it certainly is.

You've got to acknowledge the fact that initially those people who were able to work from home were told indeed to do exactly that. Then rather suddenly, everybody was told they had to go back to work. And now, of course, everybody's been told to work from home again if they can. But that sudden decision to get everybody back in the office meant that all sorts of families were tearing their hair out trying to work out how on earth they were going to go about things with the absence of childcare. I mean, the government has made some fundamental errors here, hasn't it? That's absolutely not how I see it. What has happened all the way through is that the children of key workers, people providing essential services to keep the economy going, nurseries have remained open. They've done a fantastic job. I went to a nursery just last week that stayed open throughout the lockdown period and has welcomed children back as soon as it's able to do so. And likewise,

you know, the government saying to people to stay home, that was people who were in non-essential businesses. And workplaces have now opened again in a COVID secure way. But at the same time, you know, the government does have to follow what's going on with the R rate. So once the R rate, the reinfection rate got below one, and actually the pandemic was under control, then of course, it's vital that we get the economy going again, because it cannot be the case, you know, for people who are isolated, that affects their well-being. For families who've been effectively stuck at home with young children or heavily pregnant, that has also not been ideal.

So actually, enabling people to get out and to socialise again has been very important. I mean, the government's always made clear. No one disputes the fact that the government has had some impossibly difficult decisions to make at an incredibly tough time. Nevertheless, people do feel that at times, the messaging, to put it mildly, has been somewhat confused. And that brings me on to universities. Where is the clarity there? Indeed, where is the Education Secretary? Well, in terms of universities, what has happened is that the Education Department has put out guidance for universities to be able to manage the return of students. I mean, education is one of the top priorities now to get young people able to continue with their academic study. That's absolutely vital for the longer term. So

the balance between trying to ensure that we're keeping people safe, saving lives, making sure things are COVID secure, but at the same time, letting people get on with planning for their future and of course, planning for their future and, of course, learning for their future. So these things are not easy. Well, no, I've already said it's not easy. You might have expected the Education Secretary to be around this morning, trying to explain what was going on within Britain's universities, but so far, nothing. Well, as I say, I think the Department for Education has provided the advice for universities to then be able to work in the best interest of their students. So each university is

setting out its own rules to try and keep the virus under control. And they are trying to manage outbreaks in a very effective way. And that does mean for some students, you know, having to lock down flats or houses or courses or work remotely. You know, these are incredibly difficult. It's not for the Department for Education to come out with a one size fits all for every circumstance. If you're in a rural university, a campus, a red brick, a town. All sorts of different courses, all sorts of different universities. But nevertheless, I mean, we began by talking about the needs of very small children to many concerned parents.

And I appreciate not every young person goes to university. We need to make that clear. You can be doing an apprenticeship. You can be working at the age of 18. Absolutely. So it's not all about universities. But nevertheless, this can be an extremely difficult time for students. And they are really getting a tough deal at the moment. Undeniable.

They really are. They absolutely, I completely agree. They're getting a very tough deal. I have a very close local friends. Student kids have just come home again because of the situation with local lockdowns and would therefore decided to work remotely again for a time. You know, I've got a son who's just starting a remote master's and, you know, for a lot of his ex-university friends, a lot of them are going on to take further studies because there are no jobs. So they're being hit in all directions. For young people who want to do apprenticeships, that is proving very difficult because for many of them,

the opportunities have just gone away and evaporated. So that's why, you know, the government has introduced this kickstart scheme to give all young people 16 to 24 the chance at a job. Kickstart brings me on to the fact that the listeners, of course, inevitably, and I'll have to keep this brief, are asking about Sure Start, which your government made cuts to. Yeah, that is, Sure Starts are a fantastic thing. I'm a huge fan.

Andrea, you know that your government made cuts to the Sure Start programme. Well, what happened was the government un-ring fenced the Sure Start programme. Which effectively meant it didn't get as much money. Sure Starts do a fantastic job, but the reality is that we can improve on it significantly. Sure Starts are buildings, and what they need within them is joined-up policies and services, and that's what my review is all about.

So we have well over 2,500 Sure Starts in the country, and what we need to do is to make sure that the services taking place within them are exactly those things that will support families with young children. That's what, of course, your programme that you're running at the moment, the Early Years Development Review, gives parents the opportunity to tell the government what it is they need. Thank you. That is Andrea Leadsom, Conservative MP. The government's Early Years Development Review is something you can take part in. There is a link on the Woman's Hour website. Now, this is not unconnected, actually. A new study led by researchers at UCL and York University in Canada shows that skin-to-skin contact with a parent has an impact on how strongly

a newborn baby's brain responds to a medical jab. It's quite a small study, we should say, but let's have a quick word with Dr Laura Jones. Laura, good morning to you. Hi, thanks for having me on the show. No, pleasure. How did you do this study? So we work at University Collegiate London Hospitals and we recruit babies that are about to have a blood test as part of their normal clinical care. And then what we do is during the blood test, we then measure, we put sensors on their scalp that measures the electrical activity in the brain.

And so what we did after we recruited a number of babies is that we then found within our data, three naturally occurring groups. So some babies were in the cot and swaddled, some babies were held with clothing on by their mother and other babies were held in skin to skin care and this is where the baby is on the chest of the mother and there's significant skin to skin contact between the two. Does it have to be the mother? So in our study it was mothers but because that was who we had it's I said, it was all naturally occurring. We do have some data with dads, but we haven't been able to test that yet. So we couldn't say.

And you found what? So we found that the brain activity that's in response to this painful medical procedure was reduced in the babies that were in skin-to-skin compared to those that were held with clothing on. And I suppose what concerns me about this is that there are plenty of circumstances, unfortunately, in which a parent couldn't hope to be giving skin-to-skin contact to their very young child when they were receiving medical treatment.

And your study might suggest that, in fact, a child on its own suffering and undergoing medical interventions of various kinds would really have a terrible time. Well, actually, what we found in the study was that the babies that were in the cot as well and equally didn't have as strong a response. So it could be that it's actually, if you leave the baby and they have other interventions like being swaddled and they're left alone in the cot and they're physiologically relaxed and calm before the procedure, that maybe is also okay as well. Our study mostly showed that if you're going to pick the baby up and hold it, it's going to be much more beneficial to use skin to skin.

So what happens now then so i think there has to be much more research done on this with bigger sample sizes and perhaps in a more you know controlled trial sort of format as i said ours was very much naturally occurring and it's also important to note that we're just talking about the brain activity here and it's really important to note that we're just talking about the brain activity here. And it's really important to take in everything that the baby's doing. So what their heart rate is doing and what their behavior is doing, because they don't all tell you the same thing. No. Well, of course, they can't actually tell you anything. I mean, you are you are you are utterly dependent on what you see. Yes. And that's one of the problems. So with this reduced brain activity, it listeners it might be automatic to think oh

this is less pain but actually in truth we'll never know what you know if it's pain in the way we think of it as being pain yeah okay really interesting i hope perhaps the program can come back to this and find out exactly what you do discover when you take it further thank you um that is dr laura jones now i mentioned that I mentioned that Thursday is Jenny's final edition of Woman's Hour, and she has some great guests in a programme that will just be exploring how far women have come in the time that Jenny has been on Woman's Hour. She'll be talking to Helena Kennedy, to Jude Kelly, to Harriet Harman, and Jackie Kay, amongst others, on Woman's Hour on Thursday of this week.

Now, Alexandra Wilson is somebody that Jenny interviewed back in August. She's a young black British barrister and the author of a book called Black and White, a young barrister's story of race and class in a broken justice system. Alexandra, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, tell us what happened to you last week in a magistrate's court in Britain. Last week, I attended a magistrate's court to represent my client. And on four different occasions, I was assumed to not be a barrister.

And on three of those, by staff working at the court, I was assumed to be the defendant in a case. What did they say? Well, the first time it happened, it was a security guard as I entered the building, and he asked for my name so that he could tick my name off of the defendant list. I explained that I was a barrister and he apologised. The second person who assumed that I was a defendant was another barrister or solicitor. In the magistrate's court, we don't wear wigs and gowns,

so all solicitors and barristers are dressed in black suits. And she told me to wait outside and not enter the courtroom to wait for the usher to sign me in for my case. Again, I explained I was a barrister. She just, looking very embarrassed, turned around and said, oh, I see. After that, I walked into the courtroom to speak to the prosecutor, as is typical of any magistrate's court case. And the clerk, the legal advisor in the room um ordered me out of

the courtroom she actually you know raised her voice and told me to get out of the courtroom and again telling me that i needed to wait outside and sign in with the usher for my case um i again for the what was now third time to a court professional said i am the back the defense i'm trying to speak to the prosecutor and she nodded in acknowledgement turned back to what she was doing but by this time to be completely honest i was absolutely exhausted well yes i imagine you were and that woman didn't apologize no and neither neither the two women in the courtroom, so the legal representative and the legal clerk, neither of those two apologised,

which was quite upsetting, particularly by the last time. I was, you know, it's not nice to feel that you're having to justify why you're at work. And this was before my case had even started. So, you know, I already had to do... Well, I was going to ask about that. What is the impact then, do you believe,

on your professional performance? I mean, I think fortunately for me, you know, I was able to work with the prosecutor after that and we managed to get the case done and I got a good outcome for my client. But it does make it increasingly difficult for me. I think there was no impact on my client, but there was an impact on me. And that was because I had to bottle up inside how upset I'd felt so that I could get on with doing a really good job for my client.

Well, that's it, isn't it? You are undermined before you've said a word. Absolutely. And that's what's so difficult. I hadn't even had the chance to properly start my day. And already it felt like I was trying to justify why I was even in the courtroom. What would this tell you about the chances of a black defendant? That's one of the things I really reflected on after my experience because ultimately no one, in my opinion, should ever have someone shout at them in the courtroom anyway and the fact that people had assumed i was a defendant and you know ordered me out of the room and spoke to me in such a dismissive way really made me reflect on how difficult that must be

for defendants and particularly black defendants um to be honest i think that it's right that the courts do investigate this sort of behavior because people should never be treated like this in a in a system that's all about you know ultimately our justice system premises itself on being fair and treating people equally and that is just not the case if people are being treated in a rude or dismissive way. Full stop, not even before the case starts. Full stop, no one should be treated like that. It's a professional environment.

But what would you say, Alexandra, to a young black woman listening to this programme now who dearly wants a career in the law? What's your message? My message is absolutely we need you. This profession needs people from a diverse range of backgrounds to keep coming into it, and we need to build a more inclusive environment. One of the biggest things at the bar at the moment is retention of black barristers,

and this is why I'm pushing for change and lots of other black barristers are pushing for change. We want it to be an inclusive environment. We want young black women to join our profession because ultimately our job is to represent people and so it's so important

that we also represent the population that we're serving. So it would be absolute encouragement. Thank you very much. Really good of you to come on the programme. Thank you. And if you want to hear more from Alexandra, you can go back to BBC Sounds and just have a listen to the programme. She appeared with Jenny on Woman's Hour back in August, and her book is called In Black and White, A Young Barrister's Story of Race and Class in a Broken Justice System. There is going to be an

investigation into what happened. I've got a statement here from Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service. This was unacceptable behaviour. This is from Kevin Sadler, who's the acting CEO. Kevin says, I'm investigating the role of my staff and contractors as a matter of urgency. This is not the behaviour anyone should expect and certainly does not reflect our values. Now, let's talk to the TV presenter, Andrea McLean. You are, Andrea, you're a loose woman. What are you doing here?

Just hanging out, enjoying your show. Thank you so much for having me today. It's great to have you on. Now, your book is called This Girl is on Fire. And it's interesting because it's all about, well, you can tell me, but it's all about not just existing. And a lot of, I think, particularly middle-aged women do sometimes feel like they're plodding through a sea of mud. You want us all to get out there and start living, Andrea. So tell me, how do I do it? Well, read the book. That would be my first sort of recommendation to anybody who's listening. But it's really, really great that you picked up on that key point because, again, I do think that so many of us get to this age. You know, I'm 50, but there are many women in particular younger than this who feel the same. You're sort of turning up every day doing the same sort of things. You're wondering why life

isn't necessarily turning out the way that you planned, hoped, dreamed, whatever. But the whole premise of the book is that if you keep doing the same things and expecting a different result, that's the definition of insanity. You need to stop and take a look at what you're doing and figure out, A, what is it that you actually want? What is it that makes you happy in the first place? Because I think a lot of us, we don't even know. We know that we're not terribly happy with what we're doing. But if someone sat you down and said, what do you want? You'd kind of shrug and raise an eyebrow.

I don't know. Can we just go back a little bit? Because in many ways, as you acknowledge in the book, your life did turn out the way you hoped. You wanted to be a television presenter and you're a really successful one. Yeah. And to me, you know, my bumps in the road weren't necessarily professional ones. I mean, obviously, nothing in your life is as straightforward as it seems. You know, you don't wake up one day and decide, I want to be a journalist and I want to be a presenter and

it just happens. My bumps were rather more personal, which I think, you know, anybody who's viewed purely as what they turn up to work as, whether you work as a cashier or in a bank, that's not your whole picture. You're a 360-degree person. So for me, in the book, I deal with what you are as a 360-degree person and where your life hasn't necessarily turned out as you'd planned or hoped or dreamed. But sometimes you are, in fact, doing exactly what you thought you wanted to do when you were a little girl. But it isn't quite as it isn't quite the way you thought it would be.

And I guess sometimes I suppose that occurs me, and I'm sure it occurs to millions of other people listening. It's just, you think sometimes, okay, was this what I wanted? Have you had moments like that too? Oh, gosh, of course. And I think, you know, and again, I think it is an age thing. I think we get to a point where we think, you know, I am, I'm sitting here doing this incredible job. And it not, and I know Jane, this is something that you yourself have felt. Is this actually all I want to do? I know I've ticked all the boxes that I think I want to tick. And I know that there are many mums listening right now whose kids have gone off to university. Sadly, some of them have had to come back because of what we're going through

right now. Haven't you got a son who's just set off? Yeah, yeah, he has just set off. So I'm sort of a half empty nest. So he's the first one to go. And I've still got a teenage daughter at home and two beautiful stepdaughters who come in and out of our lives. So yes, yes, my life is very much in transition. And one of the things that I think you do realize when you get to this point is actually there's no set rule you don't go to school meet a man get married live happily ever after have kids the end actually your whole life is in a state of flux and you need to constantly sort of reevaluate am I doing actually what I want to do you know am I heading where I want to head and now I'm actually here. Has it

turned out exactly as I wanted? And what changes can I make if I don't feel that it is? Well, what changes could we make? The first thing I would say is take control. I think for someone who, you know, I'm a very easygoing sort of person. And I think when you are living in, you know, a busy house or you've got a demanding job, it can be easier just to kind of let things slide. You know, don't sweat the small stuff and that sort of thing. But for me, what that can end up happening is that you hand over your control and that can lead you to feeling powerless, it can make you feel anxious, make you feel overwhelmed.

Even right now, for example, you know, driving into work now is like driving in Armageddon. I don't know what is happening on the roads at the moment, but it's like Armageddon. It's ITV, is it? Yeah, so I don't live in London, but I work in central London. So what I do, for example, of taking control of something is I now leave for work ridiculously early. I get into work a good hour and a half before I'm actually needed just to avoid the stress of rush hour.

So that's a tiny little example of just avoiding something that could be stressing you out right now. What is actually in your control that you feel like everything is totally beyond your reach, but actually what is it that you can do in tiny, tiny little ways that can give you some sort of feeling of control? Okay. I mean, you're a bit like me. You like to get in early so you can p in tiny, tiny little ways that can give you some sort of feeling of control. Okay. So, I mean, you're a bit like me. You like to get in early so you can pester your colleagues. So what few colleagues you're allowed to have in the office. I'm never entirely sure how welcome the presenters are early on in the day, but they...

Not very. No, I think you and I are both in the same boat there. I'm interested too in, I mean, you've written very, very successfully in the past about the menopause do you think there's a danger that far from there being a taboo about the menopause now that maybe um we're too keen to go on about it and its possible impact I mean I'm I genuinely don't know what the answer to that question is but I'm interested in what you think I think it's a really interesting question because the response is so varied. When I, my previous book was about the menopause and when I was researching it and, you know, to put it out there, it wasn't necessarily met with a huge round of applause. Not many people were terribly happy at the idea of this book

coming out. And that was men and women. What was great is obviously it opened a debate and started a discussion and now it is wonderful. Everyone is talking about it, but I do understand the thought process that this is something that women have been going through forever and we do need to get on with it. Yes, I totally agree with that. What I disagree with is the fact that you have to, or you're expected to just put up with. Getting on with is very different to putting up with. So I think as long as you can put as much great information out there to help any women who want to access it, there are two very different things. Well, if you were to advise, let's say a woman is listening and she's, I don't know,

40, 44, 45, something like that, perhaps a little younger, and she's beginning to feel that things perhaps are just just that little bit different what are the things that you can do at that stage that might protect you and help you later on it's so many things the first thing i would do is say keep a diary i always have a notebook with me so just jot down how you're feeling and the the reason i would say that is it's very easy to go to a doctor and say, I'm not quite feeling myself. But you can't quantify it. But if you can quantify what that means by not quite feeling yourself, then you stand a much better chance of being taken seriously.

And also, I would look into, this goes right back to what we were talking about at the beginning with my current book, which is, is what I'm doing right now, day in, day out, that kind of existing thing, is it still working for me? And if it's not, then, you know, yes, of course, it could be just you're unhappy where you are in your life. It could be the menopause, but really dig into it and look at, is my lifestyle suiting me? Again, with the menopause, it could be the food you're eating and you're not getting enough sleep. Sleep loss is horrible in the menopause. There's only women who are going through it. No. But, you know, digging into your lifestyle, I think,

is a really good place to start. Obviously, your appearance is going to change. As we age, appearance changes. I was intrigued by the fact that in the book you mention an agent of yours, but not currently your agent, I don't think, who would ring up and comment on your appearance negatively after they'd seen Loose Women. What was all that about?

That was control. And that was because this particular agent that I had had a very, very strong idea as to how women should look when they were presenting on the telly. And if I ever sort of deviated away from that look, then it was met with a very strong rebuffle. Right. But they're no longer my agent.

Well, they sound absolutely golden, Andrea. Well, you live and learn. Yes. And to be honest, a lot of the book is about you doing both of those two things. Yes. You also, obviously, you did Celebrity SAS is the name of the show, isn't it? Yes, it is. There's a clue in the title there, Andrea.

You must have known it wasn't going to be easy. And it's not the word celebrity. Well, I don't know. That's also a warning sign as far as I'm concerned. But anyway, what was it like? Oh, it was hell on earth. Well, it certainly sounds it. Do you know what it was?

It was life changing. And when I was when I was first offered the chance to go on it, I actually turned it down three times because I thought it it sounded way too hard and too scary and not my cup of tea at all. But then I sort of thought, maybe there's a reason this keeps coming back. Maybe I'm I'm meant to do this. So I thought. How far do you actually go when you set your own limits? Well, whether you go to the gym or whether you do whatever, you kind of impose your own limits. How far do we go when someone else sets those limits? And it's someone that is so far removed from your normal sort of life, an SAS Marine. So I thought I'd give it a go. And I did it because I wanted to prove that

at the time when I did it, I was almost 50. I'm nearly 51 now. I wanted to sort of prove to myself that I'm halfway through, not halfway done. Just because I've reached middle age doesn't mean that I just want to think, right, that's it now. I really was interested to see how far I was capable of going. What I realised was not very far. And I was all right with that. Okay, now I know. Yes, but we need to make clear for anyone who hasn't seen the programme, there are some brutal elements. You are kidnapped.

Yes, yes. And you're marched along. You have a black bag pulled over your head, Cotton, not plastics. Clearly plastics. Dangerous kids. But what the essence of the program is, is they push you to your absolute mental and physical limits. And physically, I knew I was not going to be as good as the others because I was the oldest person to ever take part at that point. Most contestants are in their 20s and 30s. I was nearly 50. Yeah, but you're a fit woman. Yeah, but then you realise very quickly there's fit and then there's insane, and that's what they were. But to me it was the mental side of things that it was life-changing for,

because the brutality of it was something that for me sort of blasted open so many things that I'd kept hidden. The way I sort of write it in the book, there's a moment when one of the SAS men ripped this black cotton bag off my face. And it was as if when he pulled the bag off, my mask came off. And it was like he'd ripped off my mum mask, my wife mask, my presenter mask, my woman mask. All these different masks that we put up to make the world think that we're intelligent, we're capable, we're cheerful, we're presentable. So there you were, you were laid bare in front of a... Absolutely raw and vulnerable. And actually, that's an incredible place to start, putting yourself back together again. Because when in real life would we ever do that?

Never. We would never put ourselves through this. Not if we were of sound mind. You would never put yourself through it. You said it, Andrea. I mean, Celebrity SAS could ask me any number of times and the answer would always be the same. But I haven't got your courage.

Lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Take care of yourself. That's Andrea McLean, the author of This Girl is on Fire. She's lived through Celebrity SAS. And actually, one of the things Andrea talks about in the book is finding the courage,

and I don't think that's the wrong word, to go on holiday alone, which is something that is also discussed by our next guest, journalist Francesca Spector, who is the host of a podcast called Alonement. And alonement, Francesca, is a term you've coined yourself. What does it mean? Hi. Hi, Jane. Thank you so much for having me on the show. So polite. It's great.

It's not actually my decision, but I like it when I get the thanks. Anyway, it's nice. Well, it's an honour to speak to you. So alonement is, it's the opposite to loneliness, effectively. So, it's when time alone is positive, restorative and invigorating. Yeah. Carry on. can even think of that 15 minutes we spend chopping vegetables before dinner and you know that's completely immersive and we're not on our phones or doing anything else and it feels pleasant um but there actually wasn't a word for it in the English language the the closest thing to it would

have been solitude but solitude can be both positive and negative whereas alonement is, it's that, you know, it's the antonym to loneliness that we needed. And it's a value that you take through your life to put in that 10 minutes of alone time during the day, or even take that solo holiday, as you mentioned, that, you know, that becomes something that is, you know, absolutely life giving for you. I totally agree. And I completely understand what you mean, weirdly, by the the chopping of the vegetables, you can it's kind of mindful, pleasant activity, when nobody else is around, and it can be hugely enjoyable. But I guess at the moment, Francesca, a lot of people are focused on the prospect of being forced to spend huge amounts of time on their own. And that's not the same, as I know you'd acknowledge.

Yes. I mean, I live alone. So I spent three months at the start of lockdown not seeing anyone outside of a computer screen. And I think that it was definitely a very good time to acknowledge that there can also be loneliness and to, you know, to learn that there are both ends of the spectrum. But I think also during that time that, you know, even though it wasn't a choice, I realised that I could impose a choice, I could impose that narrative on my time alone. So I could say to myself, you know what,

okay, I'm alone another Friday night. I can choose to plan something nice, whether that's watching a movie or cooking a meal, as I might do with other people. You know, I can choose to make that time positive. It doesn't, by default, have to be lonely. And that's, yeah. Can I ask you, did you learn anything about yourself that you didn't know during that period of time? You're still, we should say you're only in your 20s. So time's on your side very much so. Yes, well, I'm 28. So yes, okay.

I learned that loneliness isn't the worst emotion that I could experience. I suppose I learned that resilience. I learned that actually it was something that I personally had. I suppose I learned that resilience. I learned that actually it was something that I personally had feared my entire life. I began as what I would call an extreme extrovert who spent almost all of my time with other people and I'd do anything to avoid. Oh, that's a shame. Francesca, can you pop back into our lives or not? What's happening with that line? Sounds a little bit, sounds a trifle final. So I think what we'll do is we will give her a call on this old fashioned technology, which is increasingly popular, though. It's called the telephone. It's been around for quite some time. Let's see. Let's see if it works.

And we'll get back in touch with Francesca. I guess it is really important, isn't it, that she acknowledges there that she was so frightened of being alone and then discovered that when she was for a period of time, it wasn't quite as bad as she'd been expecting. And I suppose that is something that people have learned about themselves during the first lockdown. But, of course, that's a whole world away from perhaps particularly being an older person who doesn't speak to somebody for days or weeks on end. That's a completely different experience. I'll just check in and see if we've got Francesca back. I've got to say, it isn't looking terrifically helpful. She's coming. She's coming. Francesca is coming so we can rejoin her at a time of technologies choosing.

These telephones are amazing when they work. I keep calling her Alexandra, which doesn't help because that was the name of a previous guest. Francesca, can you hear me again? Yes, I can hear you now. That was called Filling. If anybody wants a little bit of media training, radio training, I'll be available for radio training in December. And I can teach people about filling so tell me a little bit then about your podcast because you interview a whole range

of guests and they've all got slightly different takes on this idea of alonement haven't they? Yes and it was really wonderful actually to know it was such a universal thing that everyone had thought about being alone in some context um whether you know to less bigger and lesser extent so i had connie hook on for instance the presenter recently yeah and she said that you know as as someone who had spent a lot of time alone when she was younger you know she she traveled alone she um and periods of time being single. And she had completely changed her perception. So now being alone was more, you know, it was that time that she'd spend having a cup of coffee. And she'd learned to relish that in the same way.

So it was quite interesting at the other end of the spectrum how someone might enjoy those little bits. But equally, I had the BBC Radio 1 presenter on Vic Hope, who, like me, is single and lives alone, has really learned to overcome the fear of what that might represent. Well, that's good, and I'm glad and I'm pleased for Vic. And I'm so sorry that we had our conversation interrupted, Francesca, but thank you very much for talking to us That is the journalist and podcaster Francesca Spector and

if you want to find out more about her podcast it is called simply Alonement you can get it via your normal podcast supplier but I'm sure there's plenty of interest there and let's see actually here's a good email on being alone listening to you talking

about aloneness says Ziggy I have never felt alone when on my own but many times I felt alone when I'm in company I've actually made a point of being on my own every day and holidaying alone every year including traveling abroad and backpacking and camping in the wilds of England. Being alone keeps me sane. And my partner knows this and accepts it's what I do. He will get the best of me as long as I'm allowed to be alone. Well, good for you. I think it obviously is something that really suits you down to the ground. Barbara says, I've been practising it all my life

and I'm not defined by another person. Joanne on email says, in a century where the choice to be alone appears shocking, it's hardly surprising that some young people find a sense of contentment in being alone. Too long we've understood the idea that being introverted is some kind of illness, because it's understood to make you less successful in the rat race.

I'd like Women's Hour to champion those of us who may have busy lives and busy families and whose lives intercept those of many others, but who also choose time alone as well. Yes, absolutely. Take your point. And but as I make clear, there's a huge difference between being very isolated, which I think a lot of older people do feel at the moment, and choosing to spend quality time on your own. I think that there's a big difference. Babies and early health.

Pauline says, I'm a retired health visitor and midwife, and I've seen the dramatic changes in both these services, resulting in less visits to new parents. Health visitors are trained nurses, but now much of their work is tied up doing child protection, as there's a shortage of social workers. While I was training, there was a dedicated postnatal team of health visitors, but this service was disbanded. And from Claire, I agree that with the high importance of the first two years of a child's life, my daughter gave birth to her first child at the start of lockdown.

Now, six months in, she hasn't been able to access any support groups. There's definitely a group of new mums and in turn babies who've been forgotten. As a grandparent, it's been such a struggle to support our daughter within the guidelines. And an anonymous email here. since I gave birth in May. No Zoom, just old-fashioned phone calls. I think the system is broken. I'm not sure whether you... In fact, I'm slightly confused now. Have you had no contact at all, or are you saying you've just had phone calls? I take the point that neither is particularly helpful.

But thank you for that. I know it's been such a tough time. I can't think of a harder time, actually, in my lifetime to have a newborn baby than around now. From Sue, who says she is a retired health visitor. I was listening to Andrea Leadsom, and I was a health visitor. I am now retired, but with extensive experience, over 30 years of working in urban London and in rural areas as well.

I wanted to make a comment about the closure of children's centres. Initially, when the children's centres were set up, parents could access the service and join in with activities on their own initiative. There was no stigma, and they were open to all. Very unfortunately, they then closed, and when they reopened, they were referral only. This, for many mothers and some fathers, carried a great sense of shame and stigma because it was deemed that only the vulnerable were referred. I'll never forget supporting a young single vulnerable mother and her two-year-old to access the children's centre and the different and very important activities they had. This was when there was open access and there wasn't the stigma of referral at all.

Mothers were being empowered. This young mother joined the group and started to make real friends. I'll always remember the sight of seeing her and her two-year-old running into the centre, the little one laughing and the mother with a big smile on her face. This has really stayed with me. I think it was really detrimental when this centre was closed and then reopened as referral only. This does carry stigma. I think that's a very interesting point. And I confess, I didn't think about that. So, Sue, thank you very much indeed.

Thanks to you for listening. And we're here tomorrow again. We're talking about the Gender Recognition Act, which, as you'll know, is not being changed. This is really important, this. And we'll talk to the women who've been campaigning around the issue. Heather Peto, co-chair of Labour's LGBT group, is one of our guests. And another guest is Dr Nicola Williams from the group Fair Play for Women. We'll also be asking tomorrow, can you ever be friends with your children?

That's a tricky one. We've got a couple of guests on that one, differing views. I hope you can join in as well. You can email the programme right now and get your thoughts in ahead of that interview. And then perhaps we can involve you in the programme tomorrow. That's bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour if you want to email us and the podcast and the show back tomorrow, of course. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.