Woman's Hour - The Hampstead Paedophile Hoax, Jennie Lee MP, England Rugby player Meg Jones

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

For the first time, four mums are speaking out about what it was like to be at the centre of a conspiracy that went viral, even reaching the USA. Accused: The Hampstead Paedophile Hoax is a new documentary that looks at what happened to them. Director Emily Turner and mum ‘Anna’ (not her real name) join Emma Barnett to talk about why they wanted to speak out and share this story. The photograph gracing the front pages this morning of the Princess of Wales with her children, reportedly taken by Prince William - was the first image of Kate to be released by Kensington Palace since her planned abdominal surgery in January. Photo agencies, including Reuters and Associated Press, have retracted the photo over concerns it has been "manipulated". Emma speaks to Alexandra Shulman - Former Editor of British Vogue and journalist - who knows Catherine, the Princess of Wales - from having advised her about designers for her wedding dress through to their work together when she placed her on the front cover of British Vogue's centerary issue. Catherine, the Princess of Wales later released a statement apologising "for any confusion" the photograph caused. It continued: "Like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally experiment with editing". In 1929 Jennie Lee, a miner’s daughter from Scotland, became a socialist MP at the age of only 24 – at a time when she wasn’t even legally old enough to vote. Married to the Welsh Labour politician Aneurin “Nye” Bevan, founder of the NHS, his life and their relationship is currently on stage at the National Theatre in London in a new play called Nye. Actor Sharon Small, who plays the woman considered by many a pioneer for women in politics, is in the Woman’s Hour studio. She and Emma are joined by historian, Lyndsey Jenkins, lecturer in modern history at Oxford University.The Women's Six Nations begins later this month. Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy are taking part as well as England who are looking to build on the glory of 2023, when they sealed the grand slam in front of nearly 60,000 spectators at Twickenham, a record crowd for a women’s game. We'll continue to cover the Six Nations as it gets underway but to kick us off Emma is joined by England Rugby player Meg Jones.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engingeer: Donald MacDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Rumours have been swirling for months. Personally, I've been surprised at the range of women who've asked me if I know what's really going on with Catherine, the Princess of Wales' health since her planned abdominal surgery in January. Disclaimer, I don't, nor do I particularly wish to.

Yes, Women's Hour has been around a long time, but we don't have a hotline into the women of the royal family. But apart from the fact that speculating over a woman's health is far from edifying and is just that, speculation with no evidence, the interest, especially amongst women, some women, I should say, seems particularly high. But in what could be a first for an image of a royal, now a seemingly benign Mother's Day image of Catherine surrounded by her children taken by Prince William, has been retracted by several major photo agencies because of concerns over

digital manipulation. Today, I'm going to speak to an editor who has worked closely with the Princess of Wales, having interviewed her and arranged a very famous photo shoot of her too. It's the context, though, we're going to examine because the move to release such a photograph on a day celebrating motherhood has been seen by some as an attempt to lay to rest the endless rumour and speculation as to what's really going on with the senior royal,

if anything at all, beyond what has been stated. And now some say this move has backfired spectacularly. One headline, as I came on air, simply put it as the photo that made everything worse. How to respond in the digital era where rumour, allegation and, let's just be straight, downright lies, can not only circulate but get bigger and bigger, has become a bit of an unwitting theme on today's Woman's Hour,

as you'll hear shortly when I talk to one of the women involved in what became known as the Hampstead Hoax. I'll get to that soon. But I wanted to give you the chance to say how you have or would respond to an untruth or a lie or even an allegation that starts online. What have you done? What would you do? Have you counted it? Have you gone to the person, if you knew them, who perhaps started it and asked what's going on? Have you confronted? Perhaps you've taken legal action or maybe you've done nothing at all. Maybe you've totally ignored

it, thinking that would be the right way to respond to something that hasn't got any basis in truth. We're living in times where the truth is debated. Facts are also debated. What would you do? What have you done? Especially when you consider, you know, cases right from the royal family through to what we're going to hear, a group of mothers just sending their children to school. There's two of course, are in no way connected, but it's an interesting theme, as I say, that's unwittingly sprung up on today's programme. What would you do? What have you done?

The number is 84844 on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email me. You know I always like to hear from you through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on 03700 100 444. Do do a voice note if you can. It'd be lovely to hear your voices. Also on today's programme of that story, one of the women falsely accused of being part of what was described as a satanic paedophile ring at a school in North London is breaking her silence. You'll be hearing from her direct. We'll be remembering Jenny Lee in her own right, a minor's daughter from Scotland who became an MP at the age of 24

at a time when she wasn't even legally old enough to vote. Some of her story being shown on stage at the National Theatre at the moment. She ended up marrying Nye Bevan, one of the architects of the NHS. And England rugby player Meg Jones gets us warmed up for the Women's Six Nations. All that to come. But the photograph gracing the front page of almost all major newspapers this morning,

a photograph of the Princess of Wales surrounded by her children, taken by Prince William, as we understand, was the first image of Catherine to be released by Kensington Palace since what's been described as her planned abdominal surgery in January. Now, four international photo agencies, including Reuters and Associated Press, have retracted the photo over concerns it has been manipulated, specifically noting an inconsistency in alignment of Princess Charlotte's left hand in what could be a first

for a royal photograph. Kensington Palace has declined to comment. Social media conspiracies have been rife and in fact have been for months as to what is really wrong with the Princess of Wales. So much so last week Kensington Palace did respond with the following statement. We were very clear from the outset that the Princess of Wales was out until after Easter. It also added she was doing well. PA Media, I should say the UK's biggest news agency through which the Royal Family regularly releases its official information including to the BBC, said it had not killed the picture on its service but a spokesman has said that the agency was seeking quote urgent clarification from Kensington Palace over concerns raised about manipulation. Well I'm joined now by someone who knows Catherine the

Princess of Wales from having advised her early on about designers for her wedding dress through to their work together where she placed her on the front cover of British Vogue's centenary issue. Alexandra Shulman, former editor of British Vogue and journalist. Good morning. Good morning. What's your reaction to this, first of all, this story? Well, it's an extraordinary story. I only heard it this morning when I woke up. And I think what's peculiar about it is that images nowadays are, so many of them are retouched, Photoshopped, call it what you will, digitally manipulated.

And so for four big news agencies to make such a fuss about this one does make one think that there is something that we're not clear about that they think is a real problem. And knowing of her as you do and you've done work together, maybe we'll get to that, I hope, you know, this in itself has become the story, which was obviously not the strategy. Yeah. I mean, last week I was having dinner with a kind of comms person and communications for those who don't work in communication. And she was saying, you know,

can't understand why don't they just put out a picture, it would keep everyone happy, keep everyone quiet. And I said, Well, you know, I think if they put out a picture, then that picture is just going to become the story and of course in a way I hadn't imagined this is what's happened and instead of it just being a nice Mother's Day picture it's now just kind of boosted all the conspiracy theories that are rattling around. I mean they've made it perfectly clear Kens Palace, what the timeline on Princess of Wales recovery was going to be. She was in hospital for exactly the amount of time they said she was. They made it clear she wasn't going to be up and about until after Easter.

And I feel deeply sorry for them that by trying to do something that was going to make everyone sort of feel better, it's all gone wrong. We're getting some interesting messages coming in, and many of them, if I was to summarise these first few, certainly, and it'll keep going, I'm sure, throughout the programme as it usually does. Who cares? She's entitled to a private life, especially about her health. Poor woman. Imagine if we'd had serious surgery and then all of this. Deep sigh. Another one here. Can we give this family a break,

have some respect for a family going through a difficult time? There's a lot more in the world going on of greater importance right now. But there is a situation where that doesn't reflect how many people are talking about it in a different way and there are these rumours and people are saying all sorts of things. And I just wonder from your perspective, what your response is to that, especially women being very interested in this? Well, I think that we have to be very careful about sort of social media chat. You were talking earlier on about, you know, how people should react in their own lives to comments that are

made. And I think that Prince William is obsessive about privacy. He really wanted privacy, really wants privacy. And I feel that for Catherine, the idea that, you know, the world's wondering what's gone wrong or going on with abdominal surgery or whatever, you know, is a nightmare. But I think they are taking the best route, which is to not address it, because the more you contribute to debate, you just fire it up. I mean, the never complain, never explain. It's really difficult to do when you're the target. But it is very good advice. Just going back to what you said about Prince William there, with what you know of the couple, is that also going to be driving this approach?

Because there will be some who have the view, and I'm here to try and represent different views at times where I can, who say, yes, entitled to privacy, but we're also entitled to know when someone isn't carrying out public duties, what exactly is wrong with them? You've seen the same of the king. What type of cancer in it?

You've seen that one more detail is required or requested. How much of Prince William and his influence and his concern about privacy, especially for his family, will be driving this, do you think? I think it's just kind of prurient. I don't think there's any good reason why we have to know exactly what the king's cancer is or why we have to know exactly what's, you know, what Princess of Wales's surgery was about. I mean, for years and years, the royal family have been funded by the nation. And heaven knows how many illnesses they've all had over the decades that we knew nothing about. Yes. And with your relationship with her, I mentioned that centenary

edition. It's a beautiful image on the front cover. People will perhaps remember it if they about yes and and and with your relationship with her I mentioned that centenary uh edition you know it's a beautiful image on the front cover people will perhaps remember it if they don't they can look it up what was what is she like to to talk to to do business with most people listening will never will never do that uh well she it sounds soppy but she's a real delight i mean she's just a very uh friendly uh admittedly that was 2016 and so i haven't had a long conversation with her for now you know since she's become princess of wales but i think she's a very um straightforward person to deal with. She really is a sort of real mother. That's her big focus is being a real mother. She loves the outdoors. She's not particularly a fashion plate, but she realises that she's had to become one really. And that's, you know, become a part of her USP and I don't have a bad word to say about her.

I was reading one of your columns you write in the mail and you were talking about her and this image of her at Prince Philip's funeral and how she had grown into this particular role and where she was in the royal family and how that had shifted which I thought was interesting and in terms of her development and the development that the nation, the public, some have with her and that relationship and how it's grown. And I think it's just interesting to to think about how she's developed as well in people's minds as, you know, the royal family has been changing. Yeah. And also because with, you know, Harry and Meghan having left the country, there's now fewer people to go around in the royal family. And I think both her and actually the Queen have had to sort of not just step up, but have had to be very aware of what the nation thinks about them in in possibly a new way and uh i think they've both done very well i mean you can't of course there are lovely things in life about being princess of wales but it it's demanding and i suspect the reason why she is you know keeping well away is

that as soon as she reappears i mean as soon as she reappears, I mean, as soon as she reappears, she's going to be everywhere. Every picture of her is going to be everywhere. And imagine, you know, surgery takes its toll and she's going to have to put up with all kind of comments about, oh, she doesn't look like this or she doesn't look like that. And did you notice she did this? Did you notice she did that? That's going to be tough. I'm sure they want to keep her away for that as long as possible. Yeah. And just to say, there's also somewhat of an irony. I mean, it's been very striking that she has always been Catherine, Princess of Wales, the one who takes the photos.

Yes. You know, and I mean, you could make a bit of a joke here. The one time that she asked her husband to do the photograph because she's been in it, it's been a bit of a mess up. I'm not going to make that joke, but you can see how it could be made. But she has been and there has been this element of her curating the image of her family. And now we have this row over an image that was set to be released to, as you were talking about, for some, placate some of those concerns. And there's just perhaps somewhat of an irony there. Yes, I mean, what I go back to is the question is, what is it that the news agencies are concerned about? I mean, I really doubt they're worried about the positioning of Prince Louis finger, it just doesn't make sense. And it's quite possible that Prince William isn't the greatest photographer

in the world and actually they had to do quite a lot of work on that picture and maybe that's made it seem inauthentic to a degree that they won't accept but you know images of the royal family have been I mean back to you know Cecil Beaton taking pictures of the Queen where, you know, he sort of take a scalpel knife to her body and cut out her figure. And they've been manipulated always. So this is this is nothing new. But the reaction by the press agencies is something new. Yes. Lots of questions to be answered and asked, it seems, this morning. Kensington Palace, no comment as of yet but it's

good to return to the original reason for our discussion uh quite a funny message here from helen which says it's not so simple to get three children to behave without mischief naturally in photos when you want all with equally happy face in the past we've had to cut out a face and stick it on so much easier with an ipad There you go, different approach to editing, but some people will be able to relate to. And some interesting messages also coming in, how you respond to allegation, that bigger point, which I'll come to in a moment.

Alexandra Shulman, former editor of British Vogue, who worked with Catherine, Princess of Wales, on that centenary issue of British Vogue, where she was on the cover. Interesting to get your take this morning. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. A message here. The online world moves so quickly. The best way to weather storms is not to rise to it. Other than very famous people, most of the general population lose interest very quickly.

Well, let's keep with that in mind, because what happens when something gets said about you that's not true, but to a whole other level. What would you do if overnight people around the world suddenly decided you were part of a satanic paedophile ring that was sexually abusing children? As ridiculous, improbable and crazy as this might sound, this happened to one of my next guests alongside fellow parents and teachers at her children's school. They were all a victim of what has become known as the Hampstead hoax. It is the subject of a new Channel 4 TV documentary called Accused, the Hampstead paedophile hoax, which looks at how a conspiracy theory centred around a so-called satanic paedophile ring in Hampstead went viral

and reached people on the other side of the world, one of whom fundraised his way from America to the North London school gate for a confrontation and was jailed in a British prison. Mothers whose children appeared on a list of so-called victims were subject to harassment, including death threats and calls from real paedophiles interested in their children. Now four of the mothers at the centre of the conspiracy are speaking out for the first time. The documentary uses their real voices from audio interviews and their parts are acted and lip-synced by actors. Here's a bit of the beginning of the documentary setting out the story. Joining me now the director of the documentary Emily Turner and one of the mothers Anna, I should say not her real name. Welcome to you both. Anna, if I could start with you. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me.

And, you know, talking out is difficult at the best of times, but especially when so many things have been said about you that are not the case, that are not true. Why now? Why is it important? I think, obviously, we've had to think long and hard, the four mums, about speaking out. And that's a good question. I think we understand that there is a risk with us doing so and raising our head above the parapet where we've spent a long time trying to get rid of material online predominantly about our children. But we feel that we do have a series of really important messages and now is the right time.

Predominantly, I think, you know, there needs to be an awareness with people about oversharing on the Internet. We weren't particularly guilty of that, but we did see various people harvesting photos from Facebook from amongst the teachers and the families that were concerned. And then also we feel very strongly that all of the material that was hosted online was done so almost with the blessing of the social media companies and we had a really long, hard fight and sometimes an impossible task in being able to remove the material about our families that was there, predominantly our children whose futures were going to be affected by it. You know, we know that everybody Googles everybody now.

And when they were going to go to college or to university or go to a job interview, it was likely that people would be Googling and that, you know, this material would be found about them so we really do want to sort of join the growing narrative and the growing sort of um talk i think of of trying to have social media companies take responsibility for what they're hosting i mean they were hosting very illegal content about very real children and when we said you know these are real children their names and addresses are online and they're nine years old we were continuously met with this does not breach our community standards so we're not willing to remove it so there's been a lot of cases I think that have come after us where there is an awareness that social media companies need to really look at

what they're hosting so I think it was the right time for us to tell our tale. Yes, and it's certainly, you know, other parents with very tragic stories with their voices being very much at the front of that fight and also what's gone on in Parliament as well with law change. If I can, I'll come back to that. But to your story, life pre-2015, I imagine it was pretty normal in your corner of North London. Absolutely. You know, we were all working mothers and we were just sort of getting on with our lives. We were trying to juggle running businesses, you know, active careers, trying to juggle that, you know, school run, drop off, homework, family life, social life and working.

So very much normal. It was life before the 5th of February 2015 and life after. And what happened on that date? At around about 4pm on the 5th of February 2015, we received an email from the school to say that there had been some allegations made regarding the school, but the police had investigated and there were no further investigations required and the case was closed, which is probably the worst email that could have been sent because your natural reaction is to say,

well, what what allegations and of course, you know, you turn to the internet. And unfortunately, for me, it didn't take me very long to find out the nature of the allegations and the fact that myself, my husband and my child had been implicitly sort of, you know, named online. And this was the accusation from two children, and we'll get to sort of how that comes about, that there was this terrible act, these terrible acts taking place in the community. There was a video of two children which went viral around the world. Ella Draper, excuse me, the mother of the two children who made these initial allegations and her boyfriend abraham um the children say that they were coerced into making

these allegations um though that was the video that you were able to see at this point or was that not out there yet yes yes it was one of the the coercive um videos where um in fact it was an odd one because um it was a third party it wasn't Abraham or Ella in this one instance but she was being Ella's daughter was being coached by a third party to name and he said does this happen to anybody else and she said yes my friend and named my child and then he said well who's doing this and she then named myself as my husband and various other parents and teachers as being the abusers. I mean how how did that feel seeing that? It was complete shock you know heart-stopping moment I could not believe what I was hearing. Because presumably you recognised these children? Absolutely yeah I knew straight away that you know it was my daughter's classmate and I had

right from that get-go I had a very good sort of you know reason to think that it was it was Ella and her partner Abraham at the time that were behind the coercion and then the root of the children's allegations so yeah heart-stopping moment I mean you know to receive that email and literally within 10 minutes not only discover what the allegations were, but, you know, to then discover that you're part of the centre of that allegation was, yeah, unbelievable. And you got in touch with the police? I did. I called the school. I spoke to the headmistress and was advised by her that, you know,

she had been advised if any parent were to contact her, that, you know, she was to say that we should contact the police, which I did straight away. You know, we'd been accused of something completely wrong. And it seemed, you know, I followed that advice and said, I don't really know how to explain this, but we've been accused of being paedophiles. And, you know, unfortunately for our family, we weren't given much choice to sort of keep our child sheltered from that because they literally said, well, the police are on the way, you've got 30 minutes to tell her.

And they came to the house and didn't afford us the opportunity for her to be separated from us while we explained what had gone on um and then the police officer said oh you know took my husband into the kitchen and said oh don't worry we we've satisfied ourselves you know that that your child is safe and we won't be taking her away from you tonight and i should say at this point because I think it's very important to say if people have never come across this story before, that all police investigations came to nothing. There was nothing found.

It was all dropped. But there is a whole other life to this because of then what happens with what goes on online. Let me bring in Emily at this point, give you a moment to catch your breath. It mustn't be easy to talk about this. Emily, why did you want to look at this story and put it together? It's an in-depth film and people will have it all in front of them. I was actually working in Hampstead at the time and

was given a leaflet by somebody pamphleteering in the area and said, did you know there's a satanic paedophile cult operating in the area? And so it's always been a story that I was aware of from then. And I just, I sort of thought, well, there must be something in this. And so I got in touch and I made contact with a woman who had developed a website called Looking Into The Hoax and sort of putting all of this incredible information out there. She said to me, well, actually, this is a slightly more important story than you think it is. I think you need to speak to the mums.

And so she introduced me to the four of them. And I think it was really over lockdown that we were sort of seeing so much of these conspiracy theories really taking hold. And I know certainly when QAnon was going on and the Pizzagate thing that went on in America, I know that a lot of traffic was being redirected back towards Hampstead. So despite the sort of lurid and quite frankly, ridiculous allegations that were being made this was something that really had a grip hold in terms of the online community and so it was after speaking to the mums I thought actually this isn't a silly ridiculous story this is something that's had huge you know impact. Real world impact. Exactly exactly. Because I

started to introduce there the two individuals Ella Draper and her boyfriend Abraham. Ella Draper had been involved in a long custody battle for her two children. It's an important part of the backstory to this. And she also claimed that the father of her two children that she was fighting in court and for this custody battle was also part of this satanic paedophile ring. So you know in a classic sense you've got a motive there in some ways and those two children were taken into care yeah yeah and a high court judge as part of that custody ruling did an investigation into this case and ruled kind of i think her words were that this is absolutely baseless and anybody who perpetrates these lies is evil and or foolish judges justice

poorly announced and actually instead of of setting the record straight, that actually inadvertently poured fuel on the fire because I think these people thought, well, the cover-up is endemic. The courts are involved. It's spread to the courts because that's, I mean, and that's the thing for those listening again to this, Anna, coming new to it, and it's not new to you, sadly, you might just think, well, once it's been closed, case closed, can't you just move on at this point but but it carried on didn't it absolutely as

Emily said it fueled the fire Justice Palfrey's report fueled the fire I think a lot of the people in the conspiracy world are very much of the belief that the family courts are secret not that they're you know closed and behind closed doors for privacy confidentiality that the courts are secret, not that they're, you know, closed and behind closed doors for privacy and confidentiality, that the courts are secret and they're taking children away from their families in order to feed to the sort of elite paedophiles within the justice system and the, you know, parliamentary world. So it just, it fuelled their fire. And a list of names of the children's names were put online with their addresses. That's correct. And really, you know, lots of people might say, well, why would you fight back against all of this? And I think the real difference for us was that you're correct.

There were two class lists from Ella Draper's daughter's class and from her son's class, which were published at the hands of Sabine McNeill alongside Ella. Sabine McNeill is another, I'm not going to say character as if it's a fake story here, but another person within this who was actually charged with harassment because of the part she played in the conspiracy. Correct. But, you know, so what we had were all of these allegations. But our names, our addresses, our children's names in full, our full home addresses, our telephone numbers, our email addresses, everything that you might have on a very innocent class list in order to arrange a play date had suddenly been published online alongside of all of the allegations. So all of a sudden you have people believing that you are abusing your children and they're wanting to come and rescue those children from us. So people were coming off of the internet. It became real world harassment.

We had people coming to the school, coming to the church every Sunday, police officers undercover on our school gates on drop off and pick up for weeks on end. And we were literally watching people on Facebook saying, well, I've got a truck and I can be in Hampstead tomorrow. And why don't we just sort of come on mass and rescue the children and our names and addresses? The children's names and addresses are online. So it's not just as simple as shutting the laptop and thinking, well, you know, why don't we just ignore it? What effect did this have on you? Has it had on you? You know, at the time it was horrific. And for many years afterwards,

it was horrific. You know, this this abuse just grew. And it was just it was every day, it was relentless. And every time any material, we were successful in taking that material down, it was like whack-a-mole, somebody would have saved it, our names and addresses, and they would repost it. And it never sort of really died down it was just incessant for for a number of years and you know it's still there and it's the fabric of our lives and the internet never really forgets and although we've been successful in a lot of the takedown there will always be somebody that wants to repost it and it's never really truly going to go away that you know there'll always be is that how you. Is that how you feel? Yeah, yeah.

Do you still, I know we're not doing anything about your identity, but do you still live in the area? Are you able to, have you been able to carry on in the way that you were before in some ways? I think, you know, it's taken a long time to sort of regain some peace, if that's the right word. And, you know, I live not a million miles away from the area, but I think, you know, our children now are a lot older. This, you know, did not a million miles away from the area but I think you know our children now

are a lot older this you know did take place nine years ago they're all healthy happy well-adjusted adults that who who are now living their lives and you know getting on with going to university and college etc as as they should be doing so which is which is I suppose that the goal when you're fighting something yes as something as awful as this. Talking of happy and healthy adults, you interviewed, and he was featured in the documentary, agreed to be part of it, a man I referred to in my introduction, Rupert Wilsdon Quaintance, who came from America. Is that right? Fundraised some money, came from America to come to the school gates to figure out what was going on and was actually jailed for harassment. Yeah, that's right. Rupert was a YouTuber and kind of had a level of sort of internet celebrity and posted a reaction video to the children's original videos and sort of was quite bombastic and said things like, I'm going to go, someone needs to investigate, I'm going to come over and have an investigation. And he was able to crowdsource thousands of dollars to come over

and got on a flight. And what was he like when you met him? Because he reacts very strongly at one point to your questioning. Yeah, I think it was easier to get him to do the interview than you'd have thought. He was quite keen to talk, quite keen for the record to be put straight, and that he feels it's sort of all been a sort of enormous overreaction. But did he admit that there were no satanic paedophile rings when he came to find out what he came to find out? He's pretty evasive about really sort of battling the truth of this matter. It's really unclear as to whether he truly believes

that the world is controlled by satanic paedophiles or if it's something he's happy to be part of for the sort of notoriety. But Sabine, who's also in the film, sort of falls into the other camp of the people around this story and she's an ardent and sort of fervent believer that this is the way that things are. That's a bigger picture, isn't it?

I'm not ruining anything in the film here. You're telling a story and you're putting it together. That's why they think the world is controlled. But he specifically came to Hampstead. He couldn't have found, because it isn't there, what he was looking for. Has he admitted that? He just wouldn't be pinned down. It was a bit like talking to a politician trying to get an answer about some policy.

It was something else was thrown at me, but it wasn't fair and I was just coming. And it was tourism. But we know that he had the parents' addresses and details on a laptop in his computer when he came over. Yeah, it's just, I suppose when you do get those opportunities to have someone in front of you, you know, trying to understand what they think is hard. And he does react also quite badly, as I say, to you doing your best to get some answers.

And the other striking thing for for those who are listening, you might be thinking, well, what happened to the original Ella Draper and her boyfriend Abraham? Is it right that they never faced charge? No, they fled as soon as they became aware that the police were interested in talking to them about the abuse that the children suffered at the hands of both of them in order to gain these videos. And they've remained to be sort of on the run, so to speak.

So no, they've never faced accountability for their actions. And just a final word then on that to you. I mean, when you're trying to, Anna, feel some sense of closure or something, is that difficult to live with? I think so. I think if the police had, in the first couple of weeks, done a better job and arrested them, then we may not have had to have suffered years and years of abuse.

It would have shut it down straight away. But, you know, that's history and we have to, you know, yes, you know, it makes us sad. And I think, you know, just one last word as well. I think, again, people might think, well, you know, why did you continue doing what you're doing? And ultimately, I think we were validated in all of our fears because um not so many years ago after us there was a gentleman called Wilfred Wong and he um he did try and rescue a child that he falsely believed was in need of rescue in a very similar situation and he actually um kidnapped that child from his carer

at knife point and drove that child up the motorway and was apprehended by the police so I think everything that we thought was potentially the case that could happen to our children if we hadn't have kept watching all of the threats and keeping on top of them you know we were sort of vindicated because Wilfred Wong did exactly that thing so you know there but for the grace of God go us and we kept our kids safe. Thank you for coming to talk. You're welcome. Today, Anna there, not her real name for reasons you'll understand,

Emily Turner, who's made this programme, which is on Channel 4 called Accused, The Hampstead Paedophile Hoax. Is that out this evening? Yes, tonight at nine o'clock. Tonight at nine o'clock. Helping me out with my job there. Thank you very much.

I got a preview. But an extraordinary story and definitely lots of you getting in touch talking about how you would respond if you were in a scenario not necessarily like that but other scenarios of of allegations so thank you keep those messages coming in now to something else completely and i will come back to those messages if i can in 1929 jenny lee a miner's daughter from Scotland, became an MP at the age of only 24, at a time when she wasn't even legally old enough to vote. Just remember that, there were those limitations. Later married to the Welsh Labour politician, a Nairn Nigh Bevan, as he was called, one of those who spearheaded the founding of the NHS. His life and their relationship is currently

being depicted on stage at the National Theatre in London in a new play simply called Nigh. A play about principle and passion, the cast is led by Michael Sheen. You may have seen some reviews. You may have seen it. I'm hoping to. It sees the actor Sharon Small playing Jenny Lee. Sharon joins me now in the studio alongside Lindsay Jenkins, a lecturer in modern history at Oxford University, whose research and interest focuses on Labour female MPs. Good morning to you both. Sharon, let me let me come to you if I can. Jenny Lee, what did you know of her?

Good morning. Sadly, I didn't know about her. And I'm from Fife and we didn't learn about her at school. And it wasn't until in 2020 during COVID that we did a reading for Nye that I learned about her then and was thrilled to know that she was such an important person, but was sad that I hadn't been taught about her. Yes, and I think, well, this is one of the joys of this programme.

We can bring to light things that you may not have heard about, maybe should have been included in your education. The play is set as nye bevan is dying and there's a kind of morphine induced haze looking back at key moments in his life both personally and politically and our introduction to jenny is in her grief and you know a little bit of a debate between she and archie lush his lifelong friend are having as to whether to tell him he's dying or not. She makes the decision not to. Is that based on true accounts?

How does this come together, this story? So, yeah, Tim has framed it in such a way that it seems like it's Jenny that's made the decision. In real life, it was actually Nye's very good friend who was a doctor. And he advised and said, I don't think you should tell him. And Jenny went along with that. And it was something that in real life she really worried about having not told him but yes for the sake of the play it's framed between the argument between her and his best friend that he grew up with and I think she still thinks she worried about it but she still thinks it was the right decision because he was happy in his final days and months.

And they are I mean from now what you know of her, and we'll start to get to that. But, you know, she's an incredible figure, a real pioneer. Absolutely extraordinary. And it's not covered so much because this is a love letter to Nye Bevan, ultimately. So this is framed in his last months

and a couple of flashbacks to how they met and her politically, how he made an impact on her. But yeah, later on, she did her bigger stuff, ultimately after Nye's death, where she introduced, and I don't know whether Lindsay's going to cover this as well, but she started the Arts Council. She was made Arts Minister and she was fundamental in starting the Arts Council and putting foundations

into the National Theatre. And she started the Open University because Harold Wilson had a lot of faith in her and she did incredible things. So I think that she did, in a sense, what Nye did for health. She was doing for education, making people outwardly mobile,

made it open to everyone so that she would out-snob the snobs, she said. Well, you could maybe have a play also to follow called Just Jenny, couldn't you? Right. That would be nice. There's an idea. There's a sequel for you. Let's just hear a bit. We've got a clip, which is always lovely to be able to play.

Early on in the play, where Nye, played by Michael Sheen, as I said, meets you as his future wife, playing Jenny Lee for the first time in the Strangers Bar in Westminster, following Jenny's maiden speech in the House of Commons in 29, and the first hint of their sparky relationship emerges. I am a socialist. Right, Lindsay Jenkins listening to this, a lecturer in modern history at Oxford University. She became a Labour MP, Jenny Lee,

in 45 but when first elected was part of the Independent Labour Party. Can you help us out on the differences? Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's one of those kind of quite niche factionalist things about the Labour Party and its history. Niche factionalism in the Labour Party, all the Conservatives, who'd have thought it? Can you believe it? But yeah, so she is part of the Independent Labour Party, which is a kind of socialist grouping on the left. And she is a kind of part of the evangelical, really principled, much more kind of left wing, you know, a kind of fiery politics is my all, socialism is my all commitment to this particular kind of politics. It's worth saying, I think, that at that particular moment when they meet, she is a national star,

and he's just, you know, some random ten a penny MP from Wales. She is really a celebrity. She's obviously kind of with her election being so young, being so charismatic. She's really very prominent, very popular and a lot of eyes on her seeing her as a kind of future star of the party. Was that because of that maiden speech or how had she made her impact? She was very young when she went into being an MP and as I mentioned, couldn't even vote at that time. Yeah, exactly. And she's one of only 14 women who've ever been elected. She's only the sixth woman who's elected for the Labour Party.

So just they have a lot of novelty value in and of themselves. And she has particular novelty value in that she's so young, she's so beautiful, and she's really, really kind of an extraordinary performer, not only within Parliament, but also on the kind of big stage. People kind of flock to hear her. And also in her maiden speech attacking Winston Churchill and, you know, not necessarily always the done thing, I imagine. No. So obviously the kind of parliamentary convention is that your maiden speech is you sort of, you know, very humbly and with a great deal of humility coming into Parliament and paying tribute to your predecessor in a very refined and respectful manner. And she, you know,

she's not having any of that. She's a kind of real personality, the degree of confidence and commitment to sort of doing things her own way is always really evident in her career, I think. Yeah. And we heard a bit more towards the end of her career there, which was an extraordinary legacy. But perhaps again, you'll be asking, will people be asking, why don't we know more about her? tradition of women on both the left and right who have done extraordinary things in politics, and not just at parliamentary level, but within local government, within European politics. Very, very active. And there are many, many women of this era, not just Jenny Lee, but so people like Joyce Butler, who is responsible for the 1975 Sex Discrimination Act, people like Irene White, who's an active campaigner on divorce

reform. There's a kind of real tradition of women politicians doing important activism and campaigning on women's issues and not really getting the credit they deserve. Well, no need to worry about that on Women's Hour. We're always trying to make sure that those stories are heard and also a bit of a sense of the person as well. It's not just what they did, but a bit of who they are. And a key part of that is their relationship. So just to come back to you, Sharon, and the relationship you're depicting here with Nye Bevan, they didn't have a traditional relationship in the sense, did they, in some ways? Not traditional in the sense that it was more, they grew together because she was actually having an affair with a man called Frank Wise who died.

And just weeks later, Nye moved into her flat. Frank Wise was an MP for Leicester East. And he was a married man. And she was really broken by that. I mean, she still maintained that he was the love of her life. But so Nye was much more of a slow burn. And they were like brother and sister, they felt, a little bit for a while. And then she really grew to love.

And she loved him so much and trusted. And then she figured that he did everything better than her. And that he was the best chance socialism had in the country. And so she championed him all the way through from that point. Yeah, and I suppose that relationship, it was interesting, she didn't then change what she was interested in, as in she didn't make it all about health. She kept going with her thing.

They had a very strong relationship in terms of what they had as their interests. Yeah, she didn't get so involved in the health aspect, but she was more interested in housing because he was health and housing. And because of where she'd grown up, she'd seen a lot of inequality. So she was actually much more focused on getting good council housing for people. And she stayed independently with the party for a long time and fought against him saying, please join the Labour Party. But, yeah, she was a fantastic pioneer and really stuck, like I said, by her principles of trying to give equality to everyone.

She was really struck by poverty in like when she was a teacher as well with the children who could come to school with nothing. Are you enjoying playing her? I'm really enjoying playing her. I didn't like hearing that little accent. That's the first time I'd heard myself, I know. I think she, for the framing of this, this is very much, like I said, a love letter to Nye Bevan. So it's not so much about her,

but it's really nice to play the truth of their love because it was a very deep love that came over lots of years. And even though they did have affairs, they were unconventional. Yes. But they had a deep love and respect for each other. Sharon Small playing Jenny Lee at the moment at Nye at the National Theatre. You can see it until Saturday, the 11th of May and at the Wales Millennium Centre in Cardiff from the 18th of May. Just a final word from you Lindsay Jenkins. How do you

think we should think of her and what do you think is important to take from Jenny Lee's work? I think she is a very she's quite unusual as a Labour woman MP in that she is quite on the far left and as Sharon was saying she's really kind of passionately committed to

the challenges of poverty and unemployment. So she's quite unusual in that she's not particularly interested in women's issues. But I think what Sharon was saying before about the longer term aspects of her career in her work for the arts and in her work on the Open University, she was somebody who believed that it was possible to have excellence without compromising on standards and that both education and the arts were essential to a thriving healthy society and something which should be available to everyone and I think that those principles are very much worth fighting for. It dovetails quite nicely with talking about theatre I suppose as well and Lindsay Jenkins a lecturer in modern history at Oxford University, thank you very much to you.

I should say we started our conversation and still messages coming in about the decision by several photo agencies to retract this image of the Princess of Wales with her children after concerns around digital manipulation. News just in that the Princess of Wales, Catherine, has apologised for any confusion her Mother's Day photograph has caused. We've been talking about what the rights wants to do when there are, you know, rumours and all sorts of things going on. And there has been about her and her health. She's apologised for that after five photo agencies

have retracted the image over editing concerns. In a statement, because when we came on air, there was no statement from Kensington Palace, just to update you as it comes in, a statement posted on Kensington Palace's social media accounts. It says, she says rather, like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally experiment with editing. I want to express my apologies for any confusion

the family photograph we shared yesterday caused. I hope everyone celebrating had a very happy Mother's Day says and signed off with C so I just wanted to bring you that as we have it I'll come back to your messages if I can but I did promise you a little bit of warm up for I hope the weather warming up but also for some sport we are inching closer to a summer of women's sport from the Paris Olympics to the 2020 cricket series. There is something for everyone. First up on the calendar, the women's Six Nations. Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and Italy are taking part, as well as England, looking to build on the glory of 2023 when the team sealed the Grand Slam in front of nearly 60,000 spectators

at Twickenham, a record crowd for a women's rugby game. We'll continue to cover all the UK nations that make up the Six Nations as it gets underway. But to kick us off, England rugby player Meg Jones is on the line. Good morning. Hi, Emma, are you okay? Yes. How are you doing?

I'm all right, I'm all right. I'm watching some of the men's Six Nations this weekend. But for those thinking about the women's, what can we expect? What should we be looking out for? Yeah, I think the best thing is the fact about the women's. What can we expect? What should we be looking out for? Yeah, I think the best thing is the fact that it's now a standalone tournament. So it was coincided with the men's campaign,

but now it's a standalone tournament. So it means more rugby across more months, which is amazing. I think from the women's perspective, it means we can market a lot better as well. But the game itself you know I'd hope we're a bit more exciting in terms of running rugby um but also just you know putting on a spectacle for for the um for the spectators which I think is part of it so yeah we've got

Italy first up on the 24th of March uh again which will be amazing because Italian rugby has grown massively over the years. And as England, as favourites, you know, we're keen to start the campaign off with a high. So, yeah, we're looking to win it, win it all, get a grand slam and keep that winning streak. So, yeah, every game is going to be really competitive for us. Picking up a bit of Welsh accent there, you play for England tell us a bit about that not not the most conventional. Yeah I can never hide it as well I'm back in Cardiff as well so I think it gets a bit worse um but yeah I say worse probably better really but yeah no my mum's from Bristol uh so I qualified to play for England uh dad's a Cardiff boy so yeah I was born and raised

in Cardiff made the decision to jump ship when i was about 16 i jumped over to gloucester harper college is where i did my a level so yeah i just made the decision uh with women's rugby not being professional i think the first professional contract was 2014 for england and then for the welsh women it's only been the last year or so where they've had professional contracts so yeah and I think in contrast to the men you know they were getting probably brown envelopes and then full contracts in in 1996 and so yeah big disparity and in when we started becoming pro um so yeah I just thought you know short career uh need to make the most out of it and England was the best option for me really. Pragmatic, I like it. A woman after my own heart. But I imagine sometimes causes a bit

of a headache in the house when you have to decide or the family have to decide who they're supporting. Massively, yeah. I think my dad always says, I always support you. And I'm like, okay, that obviously means he's just supporting me and not the team as such now but he's he's a huge um you know huge supporter and he's he's been massive in in my journey um you know little things like he used to unstitch the uh the red roses badge off of some of the kit i get him because he said he couldn't wear it down the pub um so yeah he's still he's still he's still a proud welshman and he keeps it he keeps it um it as PC as he can.

I love that, the image of that is a striking one. But it is growing, you know, the support for the game. And I'm sure you must be feeling that. And that momentum also must be important for the team as it's going in as the favourites. Yeah, massively. I think as well, we've got a home world cup in 2025 so it'll be in England so we as a nation are pushing that because we want to win

because we haven't won since 2014 so that's our bigger picture obviously Six Nations is first up and it's going to put us in a good position we've got new coaching staff some new players coming in so yeah and i think the momentum around it again having its standalone tournament just means we're able to market it a

bit better um and also you know show show our characters a little bit more as well um and it's not diluted as much around the men's game yeah and but it also means we we get a lot of um staff from the men's game that come and do the women's game. So, you know, that almost equal opportunity there, which is amazing. So, yeah, I think the noise around it is phenomenal. Yeah, and I suppose in some ways you've got to prepare for people knowing more about you and who you are. And, you know, we've had a bit of a discussion this morning, as often can be a little bit of the terrain here on Women's Hour

about what it's like being in the public eye and and how people react are you prepared for that how do you feel about that side of things yeah i think even since my first cap in 2015 um oh god that sounds ages ago now but um you know we always got we always spoke about um you know how important your image was on on social media and so i remember going back through my facebook and deleting you know deleting photos and and this is this is my first cap now so you know wouldn't have wouldn't have been a name as such um so we've definitely been taught quite a bit um and particularly learning a lot from football as well i'd say yes um you know you see so much online online now particularly football get quite a lot of heat

I think just because of the prestige of it but you know you almost got to avoid reading some of the comments because it does it does rattle you

it does cause a little bit of friction but as an individual in rugby you know you don't see it as much in the game but obviously

you do hear comments here and there so yeah I think it's just about understanding them the reason why you do it um and what is the reason like take take me there take me take me to the the pitch but what's what's it like in your mind when you're playing how do you how do you feel what what what gets you to to want to do this i think from a young age you know i've started started playing when I was six. It just gave me a sense of belonging and the fact that my gender did not matter. I'd go to this team, I was the only girl and yes, okay, people would say, oh my God, there's a girl on the team or, you know, I'm not

tackling the girl. But the thing was, when they saw me play, they just said, wow, I want Meg on my team. You know, I want to be involved and I want a team full of Meg Joneses, which was amazing because it then showed me from a young age, even though maybe I wasn't conscious of it then, but it showed me that your gender doesn't matter as long as you provide the work and you show that you're capable of producing something

on the pitch in any line of work, you know, your gender is irrelevant. So my opportunity should be the same. I should be able to, you know, your gender is irrelevant. So my opportunity should be the same. I should be able to, you know, have the same opportunity as any male counterpart. Indeed, and beyond that sense, and hopefully that's the case and that's where we're going now, but beyond that sense of belonging, do you get an enormous thrill from it?

What's the kind of, what's the buzz for it? For those who think, you know, maybe they've got a daughter who they've never tried out in rugby or they're thinking maybe they'd like to try and do it. How can you describe that? Yeah, probably a bit of an adrenaline junkie. Those highs and those lows. And I think the sense of euphoria

when you've set out for a common goal with your whole team and whether you're not your favorites or you're not favorites but achieving that with a team and actually sitting there and going you know what we set out at the start of the year or two years ago to be you know world champions or you know set set the bar in women's rugby and when you actually go to do that you just feel this sense of like yeah I guess I guess you've just accomplished, you know, this massive, massive achievement where, you know, in the wider world, it's probably a really minute achievement. That great feeling of going for it and trying to do it just very, very quickly. Anyone you'd like to tackle in public life?

Public life. Yeah, fair play. Do you know what? When I was younger, everyone always used to want me to tackle them. It was like, oh, go on, you play rugby, let's tackle me. So I try and avoid that. It's kind of like saying a boxer can't punch out outside of the rink, can they?

So I'd probably lose my rugby licence if it was such a one. I don't want you to do that, Meg. Well, thank you so much for coming on. The Six Nations begins on the 23rd of March. Good to talk to you. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Forgive us, listeners, for we have sinned. And we want to know why.

I'm Becky Ripley. And I'm Sophie Ward. And we're here to tell you about our new podcast series seven deadly psychologies now available on seriously from bbc radio 4 so ready born ready where we take a cold hard look at the psychology behind each of the seven deadly sins we shouldn't discard them we should ask ourselves what they mean it's this idea that if you give in to your lusts that you are animal-like. We have to let our minds have time to free wheel. Finding empathy is probably the best tool to manage anger. To hear the whole series just search Seven Deadly Psychologies on BBC Sounds. The more paper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.