Woman's Hour - The housing crisis and women with Vicky Spratt, Rising Covid rates, Christian Peake on Maeve Gilmore

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

Last week, Prime Minister Boris Johnson unveiled his "benefits to bricks" plan to tackle the UK housing crisis - the chronic shortage of homes to rent and buy and climbing property prices. According to the charity Shelter at present across the UK there are currently 17.5 million adults without safe, secure or stable homes. If you include children in this number – it is 1 in 3. A new book Tenants is about people on the frontline of Britain's housing emergency – and describes particularly how a shortage of homes is affecting women. The author is journalist Vicky Spratt, housing correspondent for the I newspaper, and she joins Emma in the studio.Covid rates appear to be rising again and some experts are predicting a new wave of the virus over the summer. In the week to 2nd June, 1 in 65 people in the UK were testing positive – up from 1 in 70 the previous week. But do we actually need to worry about it – and if so, what should we be should we be doing to protect ourselves? Emma will be getting the thoughts of Professor Devi Sridhar, who’s chair of global public health at Edinburgh University, and sits on the Scottish Government Covid-19 Advisory Group.Listener Christian Peake was given a huge stack of canvasses painted by her grandmother the artist Maeve Gilmore who had died when Christian was 11 and whose artistic work had been over-shadowed by her more famous husband Mervyn Peake. A busy teacher and mother, Christian didn't really know what to do with them. As time went on though she became increasingly determined to get Maeve’s work the recognition she feels it deserves. She has created an online gallery at maeve_gilmore_archive on Instagram and her grandmother's first exhibition is currently on at Studio Voltaire in Clapham, London. A new report by healthcare charity Doctors of the World reveals that some migrant women have been charged up to £14,000 for NHS maternity services in England. The survey of 257 migrant women - including undocumented, refugee and asylum seeking women - shows that over a third have received a bill for maternity care. The bills range from £296 to £14,000 with half of those receiving a bill being charged more than £7000. To discuss the findings Emma is joined by Anna Miller, Head of Policy and Advocacy at Doctors of the World, and we hear from Kemi, who received a bill for £4900 after having an emergency caesarean section.Apparently, the naked dress is in - catwalk models and celebrities have been wearing dresses with depictions of the female form on them - some have gilded sculpted breasts with prominent nipples. Fashion journalist, Letty Cole gives her thoughts on this eye-catching new fashion trend.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. If you were able to listen to Monday's episode, I did ask how Covid was impacting your life, if at all, and I promised to return to your messages, which came in in their droves. Well, today is the day and you will hear why next. Also on today's programme, as the Housing Secretary prepares to announce a raft of new proposals regarding renters' rights, I'm joined by the housing journalist Vicky Spratt, who makes the case in her new book that Britain's housing emergency is disproportionately affecting women. And I'll be joined by one of you, a listener, who wrote in to us about her grandmother's remarkable skill

and what she's planning on doing about it. But also today, we shall be trying to understand the latest trend, the naked dress, more to be revealed soon, quite literally, and talking about whether it makes the person wearing it, in this case it seems to be largely women, feel good, feel sexy, look sexy. And an entirely unrelated survey by an entirely unbiased over-50s dating site has also caught our eye, linked to this, showing that 53 is apparently the age of peak sexiness.

So I wanted to ask you about this. First of all, what does sexiness mean to you how does it feel when do you feel it when did you last feel it and what age have you felt it the most if you've got there yes of course you might not be anywhere near 53 on either side of that was it 53 actually if you can remember it maybe you're at that point are you feeling sexy let me know I would really like to hear from you about how this speaks to you of course we were speaking yesterday only about the menopause and what that's doing to to you particularly with a view to the workplace but also some of you writing in about of course

how the symptoms have been affecting you 53 apparently is the age that we feel sexiest does that chime true does that ring true with you? If you're in your 20s, if you're listening, I know we have a lot of younger listeners as well. If you're in your 30s, how's it going right now? Maybe it was when you were at university. Perhaps a bit more carefree. Perhaps linked to our other discussion today,

not when you were having to worry about making the rent. 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. I should say text will be charged at your standard message rate. Very much looking forward to hear what you have to say about this. On social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email me through the Women's Hour website. But first, as I said, on Monday's programme, to start the week, I asked about how COVID was impacting your life.

And you contacted the programme in response, very generously, in your droves. I will come to some of those emails and texts, of which there were many. But what will you be doing, I wanted to ask, if anything, to protect yourself from COVID this summer? There are early signs of a possible increase in the number of people testing positive for COVID, according to officials from the Office for National Statistics. The latest estimates suggest around 990,000 people in the UK have COVID.

And that's about one and a half percent of the population, roughly one in 65, up from about one in 70 the week before. So how concerned should we be? And should we be doing things to protect ourselves to prevent another wave? Well, I'm joined by a woman who did raise concerns this week in a newspaper article. She had a lot of response to it, certainly what I can see on social media, that is. Some of it very particular indeed. Professor Devi Sridhar, who I should say is Chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh University and sits on the Scottish Government COVID-19 Advisory Group. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us today. And what prompted that article to talk about this? Well, I think it was seeing early signs of new versions of COVID, BA4 and BA5 starting to cause an upswing.

And really just the Guardian coming to me saying people just want to know what's going on. What's the minimum amount of information that people need to know about COVID? I guess it's how all of us feel about COVID. covid like what is the least i need to know about this right now and so i just try to say what people should know sorry to interrupt but i was just gonna say yes i think that's the case very much on that subject to an extent but also it seemed i don't know if you were just listening to the news headlines but there's a new study saying that's how a lot of people are feeling about the news full stop never mind covid people tuning out not wanting to to listen as. But do carry on.

You were trying to give some of the basic information. And what is that at the moment? I gave a couple of the numbers there. Yeah, so I think the important things for people to know is that yes, you can get reinfected with COVID. We're seeing Justin Trudeau, the Canadian Prime Minister having Omicron in January, having a newer version now. Many listeners might know people who have had it already twice in the new year but the key thing is that vaccinations especially three protect against severe illness and so the important thing is to get boosted make sure you're fully vaccinated there is a lot of COVID around if you are in a group where you feel concerned about the risk to yourself you can wear like a medical grade mask which protects you if you're in a theater or if

you want to go out to festivals or anything else, kind of see other people. And now it's summer, just get outside, fresh air, ventilation, wind, all those things help kind of dampen transmission as we head. So I guess it's not alarming, but it's just something to kind of people to keep in mind that it hasn't gone away. It's kind of this annoying problem we have, but luckily we have more and more tools to manage it would you wear a mask at an outdoor festival i think if it was very crowded and you had people very close to you and you felt like well actually i can smell their breath you probably should be wearing a mask if you're outside in the park and there are people sitting about and there's breeze you're pretty safe we know outdoor transmission is minimal it's really if you're very close together so if you're snogging outside you're gonna get covid a breeze, you're pretty safe. We know outdoor transmission is minimal. It's really if you're very close together. So if you're snogging outside, you're going to get

COVID from the person you're snogging. Just because you're outside, it doesn't protect you. But if you're outside and sensible and have a bit of space, then you're going to be safe. In the papers today, it seems the Omicron variant of COVID, unlike previous variants, doesn't give immunity from reinfection. That's according to Imperial College researchers. What do you make of that? Yeah, so I think the idea that you could just get COVID once and get it over with. I know some people thought, oh, I'll just get it over with and live my life. It's just not true with this virus, unfortunately. It just keeps evading our immunity. It's able to infect us even if you had it before. So what does that mean? It means be prepared to get COVID again, take the measures if you don't want to get what does that mean? It means be prepared to get COVID again,

take the measures if you don't want to get it that we know work, and also, you know, make sure you're protected so that if you do end up having it, you have a mild version that you can manage at home and hopefully not need more serious care for. It is a serious disease, but luckily we have ways of blunting the impact it can have. And long COVID is also a concern. There doesn't seem to be a pattern of who gets it and who doesn't, but it has taken previously healthy people and made them suffer for months, now actually years. And so it's not something to take lightly. At the same time, vaccination does reduce your chance of getting long COVID.

Some of the messages we had come in, I did say I'd come back to them. And I know you've also had a response in particular to that article, which I want to get to. But Valerie emailed to say, just sitting here in Sussex after postponing a planned trip to Scotland to visit friends who have both tested COVID in the last few days, I must admit that I am operating normally now after COVID has gone off the radar of late. Clearly, it's still around and on the increase. Is that a correct view from Valerie? Exactly. I think we are seeing a considerable number of people testing positive. We are probably entering a new wave, especially if we look at BA4

and BA5, what it's done in other places in the world. We can often learn from other countries and say, well, what have they experienced? But on the flip side, we haven't seen the associated steep increase in hospitalizations and deaths. So it seems the fortunate side is that we have managed to blunt the devastation it can cause, though it is still around. Another message from Jacqueline, who's talking really about the impact across the generation. She says, my husband and I have been careful throughout the pandemic, but have perhaps dropped our guard recently, no longer wearing masks, for instance, in supermarkets and hugging family and friends. Last Monday, our daughter tested positive for COVID. She's had it before. She's 32 and an office manager in a primary school. I then tested positive on Thursday and moved in with my daughter. I'm 60. I do not work and have not

had COVID before. My 93-year-old mother tested positive last Friday and my brother-in-law, who's staying with us from South Africa, tested positive yesterday. COVID seems to still be very present in our lives. Although none of us having been seriously ill, it is still extremely unpleasant. I will be wearing a mask in the future. So a real picture there of a family, of course, coming into contact with each other. But you can see from that, potentially somebody who had changed her behaviour and might now be changing it back. Yeah, and I think what it also reflects is kind of household and family transmission of COVID. This is so transmissible that once it gets into a household

and among your loved ones who you're close to, it is going to fly around them. And that's the difficulty with this virus. The vector is the people we love, the people we care about, the people we want to see and be close to. And so there it reflects, you know, trying to kind of limit its opportunity to enter households through wearing, you know, masks in crowded spaces or when you're around strangers, limiting your interactions to quality. I've often said, like, who do you really want to be close to? And if you're around a bunch of strangers, maybe you want to limit it to say, actually, I don't want to get COVID again. It was uncomfortable. It was unpleasant. Or I'm still suffering from symptoms. Why risk getting it again? So I think right now many people are making a judgment over that. But we also know from earlier on in the pandemic that it was women who were more willing, shall I

say, to wear masks. There was some, it was anecdotal, but there was also some research looking at this about risk taking and the perception of potential constraints on freedom and all of that. I don't know if in the few that you still see wearing masks, because it isn't many, but this could just be anecdotal at this stage, if that's been something you can relate to. I think it's hard to say. It is quite puzzling, like who wear masks and who doesn't. Again, we do need to stop, I think, the moral judgment of judging people who either do or don't, because we don't understand their motivations. I think there has been a difficulty with people who want to continue wearing masks, feeling judged, oh, they're paranoid or they're anxious, don't know what their situation is.

Maybe they're a cancer survivor. Maybe their child has an underlying health issue. At the same time, if people choose not to wear masks, then I think we also have to say, well, maybe for their situation, they feel comfortable there. But the irony there, as you're saying, of women wearing more masks is that the risk of severe illness is being male. Actually, we have seen many more men die through this pandemic. And it does seem that there is some factor there where actually women are better protected from severe illness and death. So at least one thing women have sort of had it better at through this pandemic, at least in the risk of disease and death. Yes. And then I suppose

on the other side, I can already feel perhaps some of the messages starting to come in about long COVID and the impact women and men obviously both affected. But we've heard a lot from our listeners, our female listeners, with regards to that and issues around immunity and their systems, the way that their bodies work and all of that. I did mention you received quite a response to this article. I was looking through some of them. I know it's not a perfect place to look perhaps these days on Twitter, but it's a very strong response from some people. We got a few of these messages here on the programme. Why are you bringing it back up?

What are you doing? We've been jabbed. Stop fear mongering. Those sorts of messages. Yes, I think I had two different stark responses. One side was like, oh, why mention like COVID is a dirty word, like don't mention it. And I've just had to say, I'm like a public health academic, but the Guardian asked me to write on COVID. It's kind of my job to go out there and explain to people where we're at and where we're not at. I think it's kind of bizarre to see that kind of, oh, we're just going to pretend it's over and COVID is a dirty word. And I don't think my piece was fear mongering. I mean, I just tried to lay out the facts for people to understand where we're at and hopefully that's helpful. And on the flip side, you have people who have said like oh you're minimizing the risk

perhaps we have to go back into restrictions we should have mass mandates we should have stronger measures and I guess they are kind of my view has been that we have to at some point in a democracy where people have choices start giving people choices back like there are risky things people do we don't say to people don't drive on motorways we say you can drive on them but don't drink and drive and i think that's where we're heading with covid which is that at a certain point you have to allow people to make choices but you in public health try to guide those choices to make sure it's safer for everybody well i think that kind of balance is where we're hopefully at but doesn't seem to be reflected on twitter no and in some of the other responses too i mean uh there's a statement here from Dr. Jamie Lopez-Burnall,

the consultant epidemiologist for immunisation and countermeasures at the UK Health Security Agency, which says, recent data has shown a small rise in positivity rates and in hospitalisations with COVID-19. These small increases should be interpreted with caution as data may have been subject to delays due to the Jubilee Bank holiday. Remember to observe good hand and respiratory hygiene. If you have any symptoms of a respiratory infection

and a high temperature or feel unwell, try to stay at home or away from others, especially elderly or vulnerable people. So guidance there, as opposed to laws and rules. Do you think those changes have lasted? People washing their hands properly, staying away from each other, not going to work if they can when they're unwell? Yes and no. I think what you have seen is generally people want to do the right thing and they want to feel like they're doing well by their colleagues, by their friends, by their family. But at the same time, we are humans. We like to mix. Many workplaces want to have interaction. We like to see each other's faces. I think to kind of deny basic things about being human, which is our need for kind of intimate contact to actually want to have to go to events. And that's what you're seeing. People have flooded back to kind of festivals, to theaters to try to have the interaction. You have to kind of say, well, there's a balance to life. Public health is about all the things that make us happy and healthy, mental health included. And for a short period of time, I think, while we were waiting for vaccines and some scientific breakthroughs, it made sense to limit those things. But I think now we have many more tools.

It's more manageable. We need to have a balanced approach to this and say, we manage a range of infectious diseases. We now have monkeypox being managed. It doesn't mean we shut down everything. It means we learn to develop the tools to manage it in a way that reduces the death and disability it causes and lets people live the life they want to live. Thank you very much for telling us where we're at at the moment and some of the thoughts around the guidance.

Professor Devi Sridhar, Chair of Global Public Health at Edinburgh University, who also sits on the Scottish Government COVID-19 Advisory Group. I have to say, while we've been talking, a few messages still coming in about COVID and also some to go back to from earlier in the week, and I will do so if I can. But you have also been getting in touch with regard to my question to do with sexiness and the age and the stage and the feeling of it. So thank you for being, as always, so generous.

A message here, a big smile on my face because I said about this poll saying 53 apparently is the age of peak sexiness for some, for those who were polled by the over, by commissioned by the over 50s dating site. It's not a perfect science. Sue has messaged, who's listening in Liverpool. Good morning.

Big smile on my face. I've just pulled the car over to text you. I met my second husband at 51. Definitely felt sexy and best sex and loving for many years. Strange that this coincides with my menopause years. So it's not all bad news, says Sue. Thank you for this. I'm 53, a size 18, and I have never felt more beautiful, reads this message.

I have a wonderful partner who adores me and we have an amazing sex life. We were recently on the beach in Spain full of slim, tanned, young 20-somethings. And for the first time in my life, I didn't feel ashamed of my body. I loved being happy with my curves, confident in my gorgeousness and knowing that I'm a beautiful, sexy woman with the best lover. Our sex life is the best it's ever been. So powerful and intimate. At 53, I have never been sexier, says Kathy. Thank you very much indeed for sharing. Kathy's feeling great. I'm on whatever you're drinking or having

or eating. At 53, sexy, you have to be kidding. Bringing us back to back to earth with a bump here. I'm 53 and I've never felt less sexy. Menopause, muscle depletion, whiskers sprouting, dryness, teenagers doing exams, grumpy husband, dying parents. If I could turn the clock back to my late teens, I'm not laughing at you, it's just a litany there. If I could turn the clock back to my late teens and twenties, I would relive it, embracing just how sexy I was without realising it or making the most of it. No name on that particular message, but a bit of balance, I suppose, to some of the others there. But would you, whoever you are, whomever you are, wear a naked dress? Let me tell you what that means, because apparently it's in. Is it sexy?

Is it not? Does it make you feel like that? Let's find out. Catwalk models and celebrities have been wearing dresses with depictions of the female form on them. Some have gilded, sculpted breasts with prominent nipples. This is actually on the clothing. Kylie Jenner posted a selfie this week of the Kardashian tribe wearing a bikini featuring two photorealistic nipples by the fashion label Jean Paul Gaultier featuring lots of Okova. Unsurprisingly, it went viral. Lots of her posts do, but this one in particular. And it followed her donning a maxi bodycon dress photo-printed with a near-naked body

at the Billboard Music Awards last month. Miley Cyrus wore the London designer Sinead Gorey's naked top, as it were, and matching leggings to meet fans backstage in Colombia. And Bella Hadid and Maisie Williams, the model and the actor respectively, have posed topless, in inverted commas, in tops by the Y Project. Let's discuss this then with the fashion journalist Letty Cole.

Letty, good morning. Good morning. Good to talk to you again. Have I described it well? I don't know if I have. It's hard on radio. It is. No, I think you have.

It's essentially, yeah, pieces of clothing that have the naked body printed on them. I mean, it harks back to the Jean-Paul Gaultier 90s prints. And that's what's coming now. And that's why he's kind of relaunched the prints again. And other kind of modern designers are taking inspiration from that. And why do you think it is back? What do you think is getting people to, you know, as a fashion journalist, what's getting people into this? So partly it's just the 90s coming back people loving the 90s I know I think I'm done with it I did it the first time but anyway go on it's partly that

it's partly people love naked dresses I mean we had all of like the mesh and the sequins in 2014 2015 all of those kind of like nude dresses that were kind of see through this is just the next iteration of that so you know it's a new frontier people still want to be naked in some way this is the newest way to do it naked but dressed okay i'll get on board with that but would you wear this i mean there's a there's a journalist for the times i remember we were looking back at the article this morning i remember reading at the the Times, Laura Pullman, I think. She tried wearing this walking down the street. She had some quite interesting responses. I think if you're going to wear it, you have to expect to get a lot of attention. I might maybe if it was a very special

occasion. I was out with my friend recently, a male friend who was wearing a vintage Jean Paul Gaultier top that had like a male torso printed on it. And he turned a lot of heads. So, yeah, I think I think you've just got to be ready for the attention that you're going to get as a head turner. Do you think you also need a good sense of humour as well? Because there might be comments forthcoming. I think I think what's good about this trend is it allows people to be flirty without exposing themselves too much because you're wearing something very provocative, very obviously naked, but it's not your body. So you're able to have a bit of fun with it and you're not really exposing any of yourself, but you're, you know, walking around with a big fat naked body on you, which is amazing so um well definitely do you think do you think just coming back to what we're talking about today kind of sexiness what that means how you feel at what age uh apparently 53 is great I don't think you are there anywhere near there yet so look forward to that uh we're reliably told but uh do you think these look sexy yeah I think so definitely I think

so I mean they're definitely um they're definitely a bit of fun. They're definitely tongue in cheek. But the nice thing is the prints on them morph to whatever shape your body is. I think they're really celebratory and look really fun. So yeah, why the hell not? Okay, well, yeah, I think, you know, something can be sexual, but might not be sexy. So there's an interesting difference, isn't it? Yeah, there is a difference. But again, it's whatever makes you feel good. I think if the wearer is wearing it with confidence and it's making them feel good

and they're wearing it with a bit of a wink, then that's definitely quite flirty, in my opinion. A bit of a wink is how I'd describe some of these messages coming in about sexiness right now. Letty Cole, we'll talk again. Thank you very much indeed for getting us to grips with the naked dress, as it were, or the naked T-shirt or however people are wearing it. Age 67 reads this message.

Widowed, a former crush from my teens has made contact. Heaven with a kiss. No more detail. Oh, a tease. Rev Jackie, who's listening, says, Woohoo, I'm 53 next Wednesday. I can't wait. That's our present to you this morning.

I'm 62 and I still feel sexy. I like the way this message actually begins. BBC, I am 62. I still feel sexy. It's a state of mind. And another one, I'm 70 and I have had and having the most desirous and passionate sex of my life this year.

No more details, but perhaps no more needed. Thank you very much indeed. Keep those messages coming in on 84844. Now tomorrow, the Housing Secretary Michael Gove will announce an overhaul of rules for those living in the private rented sector, which could include, which some headlines today ahead of that white paper, granting tenants the legal right to have a pet so renters do not miss out on the companionship of a dog or a cat. There will be, of course, other proposals too. And this follows on from last week when the Prime Minister,

just after winning that vote of no confidence, but of course on a policy blitz to perhaps get his in his own party as MPs back on side, unveiled his benefits to BRICS plan to allow benefits to be put towards mortgages in England and to extend a scheme to allow social tenants to purchase their own homes. This is part of a plan to tackle the UK housing crisis, the chronic shortage of homes to rent and buy and climbing property prices. According to the charity Shelter, at present across the UK,

there are currently 17. half million adults without safe, secure or stable homes. 17 and a half million adults. And if you include children in this number, it goes to one in three people. Well, a new book called Tenants is about people on the front lines of Britain's housing emergency and describes particularly how a shortage of homes is disproportionately affecting women. Across all of that and the stories I was also just mentioning about politics and policies, the author is the journalist Vicky Spratt, housing correspondent for the iNewspaper. Vicky, good morning.

Morning. Thank you for joining us. Those figures, of course, that I just mentioned at the end of my introduction, you know, you may think you know about what's going on in this country with housing, but perhaps we don't pay enough attention to it. Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest problems is, you know, the housing crisis, the term itself is a bit like the term climate crisis. We know something is so bad and so huge, and you keep hearing these statistics, millions and millions of people, you do start switching off. I think most people do. It's very difficult to conceptualise

how huge this issue is. And so I think, you know, we say 17 million people, when we factor in children, it's 22 million. What does that actually mean? What does that actually look like? I see that week in, week out as housing correspondent going into people's homes, interviewing them about their situations. It's people living in temporary accommodation because they've been evicted from a private rented property. That temporary accommodation might be a converted office block on the outskirts of a town like Bradford with nothing around it, no living room. And I've met mothers with two kids, no living room, one bedroom trying to make that work. This is what it means in real terms. And you just brought up mothers there specifically,

but I mentioned around women being disproportionately affected. What do we know about that? Well, we know that women on average earn less than men. So it tracks logically that with house prices and rents continuing to reach record highs since the pandemic, this is still happening. Every house price index, every month when the new rent statistics are announced, we know they're going up and up. Wages are not. Women on average earn less than men. So this is going to hit women harder. 65% of single mothers do not have a safe or secure home. That's also according to Shelter. And the Women's Budget Group have done some analysis. This is a year old now, so it will probably be worse given that housing costs are going up. But women now need 12.6 times

their average salary to be able to afford a house in England. And that's up 12.2 times in 2019. So as much as we have a gender wage gap, we also have a gender housing gap. Because, of course, when you're looking at this, you are, and I mentioned the difference in some of the policies or proposals being announced, and this is your job to be across this as it's changing. But you are looking predominantly at those who, of course, not only don't own, are nowhere near owning. And when we're thinking about rights for renters, and tomorrow I want to come back to some of what's in the book as well

and some of those particular stories, how confident or optimistic might you be, especially with a government who talks a lot, which talks a lot, I should say, about levelling up at the heart of its agenda? How confident are you that perhaps Michael Gove's announcement could be something that is a blueprint for change and positivity? Well, since Michael Gove became the Secretary of State for levelling up, Secretary of State for Housing, for the purposes of what we're talking about. That department changes its name more often than any other, formerly the Ministry of Housing, now the Department for Levelling Up. He has taken this issue very seriously. He's talked about several things which are key to solving this crisis, building more social homes, because for some of these mothers in particular that we're

talking about, private renting is never going to work. It's too expensive and it's too unstable. And the only way to fix that really is to build more social housing. However, that's not what he's set to announce tomorrow. What we're expecting tomorrow is a long overdue Bill of Rights for renters, which I'd like to remind everybody was first promised in 2018. We have been waiting for this for years. One of the leading causes of homelessness in this country is what's known as a Section 21 eviction. Now what that is, is a provision from the 1988 Housing Act where a landlord can evict their tenant at short notice two months without even having to give them a reason. So all of the homelessness experts, crisis, centre point, shelter, they've all been calling for years for the government

to do something about this. Because if you're a mum with kids in school struggling to meet your rent, your landlord serves you a section 21, what are you going to do? Rents have gone up in your area, you can't afford to rent and stay near the school, what are you going to do rents have gone up in your area you can't afford to rent and stay near the school what are you going to do you're going to have to move away from your support network so tomorrow hopefully we're going to see the end of section 21 i'm very optimistic that it's it's looking positive on that front but my concern i suppose is that you can end these no fault unfair evictions but if rent keep rising, that's eviction by proxy, right? If a landlord puts up your rent, you might still lose your home. So what would you say to landlords? I remember we covered this quite recently and the

disproportionate effect on women with regards to safety and some of those situations that can make certain women on lower incomes lives more precarious. But we did talk about this and I remember, I don't have the exact wording, but from the Landlords Association, I believe it was, or those who represent, that they still would like or require the need to have that for the ability to remove tenants who are difficult or shouldn't be there. What would you say in response to that? What mechanism can they now rely on? Well, this is a thorny subject um so i i look forward to all of the messages from now on um we've been talking about sexiness until now so

it will change the the temperature i imagine of the text console yes go on a bit of a gear change but um yeah landlords argue that they do need to get rid of problem tenants right they they use this terminology problem tenants people who i don know, potentially there's antisocial behaviour, or they fall more commonly fall behind on their rent because they can't afford it. What we have seen since the 1980s in this country is basically the privatisation of housing. We used to have more people living in social housing than we did in the private rented sector. That has changed for various reasons. We've sold off lots of our social housing through right to buy, and we haven't built enough to replace it. And the expansion of buy-to-let mortgages have made private renting

really, really lucrative for landlords. If you are a private landlord, you are a housing provider. That is a very, very, very serious job. If someone is struggling financially and falling behind on their rent and you can just get rid of them and local authorities don't have enough housing to put them somewhere safe, we have a really, really big societal problem. So while I understand where private landlords are coming from when they make this argument, I think we need to reframe that conversation and really, really break down what we're talking about here. They are housing providers. And at the same time, also, you cover this in the book, women often need their rent topped up with housing benefit. Some landlords refuse to take on people on benefits, again, perhaps not viewing it in that way that you describe as a housing provider. They'll say they return, some of them will say they retain the right to choose who they take on. What do you say in response to that? This is another age-old problem that we've got in this country. I'm sure some of your listeners

will remember the film Cathy Come Home, which was about this exact issue. A young mum trying to rent because she was on benefits no landlords would take her. You know, that was decades ago. This problem still exists. I speak to women week in, week out, who are experiencing that kind of discrimination because they're on benefits. Now, there was actually a legal challenge brought by the charity Shelter, I think it was about two years ago now,

which found that this kind of discrimination is unlawful under the Equality Act to discriminate against someone because they are on benefits and say you won't rent to them. Has that stopped landlords doing it? No, it absolutely hasn't. I think this speaks to a bigger problem. Private landlords, often private individuals, they're not social workers, they're not local council workers, but they're housing providers. And of course, they have their own prejudices and biases, and they want to make money, they want to pay their mortgage. So they do discriminate. And that's a really, really big problem. And I think it brings us back to this question of what sort of housing do we need in this country for lots of people on low incomes? It's social

housing, safe, secure, affordable social housing. And even with these reforms tomorrow, even with the tweaks to the private rented sector that we hope we're going to see in the white paper, and it's looking promising, I still don't think that will go enough to help some of these people. You are very clear blaming or vilifying landlords lets the state off the hook, even though we've been over some of those just now. And I think it's important to try and get a couple of the views that there will be around those particularly thorny issues. What would be top of your list, Vicky, as an expert now in this area for change, to make meaningful change?

Well, I think an end to Section 21, depending on what other measures are brought in to make sure landlords can still get rid of people, is really a very, very good start. But I think we do need to build more social housing. I think that is the only way to make sure that people have safe, secure and affordable homes that are fit for purpose and properly regulated. But I also think, and we do have this in Scotland, which is a form of rent regulation needs to be considered. Before the 1980s, bringing us back to this 1988 Housing Act, all brought in when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, all of these changes to regulate renting in favour of landlords.

Prior to that, we did actually have rent regulation in this country. We had what were known as fair rents. They were set independently by a government body. It's probably time to look at that again. Look at this. We're coming out of the pandemic, economic uncertainty, inflation, rents are rising, wages are not. If you can't afford your home, you're in really big trouble. And in Scotland, they have these things called rent pressure zones, where a local authority can apply to the government to bring in a form of rent regulation. As far as I know, it's never actually been invoked, but at least it exists. I think radical as that might sound for this government, it's probably time to start considering that. That hasn't been floated yet with this particular Conservative government, it's safe to say.

But again, it's one of the thoughts in the book. And I think also just a brief word, if you can, on the psychological impact of your housing not being stable or even being overcrowded. And in light, of course, you also write particularly about millennials and millennial women in light of lockdown and working at home. Just very briefly, Vicky. Yeah, I think this is an area that does not get talked about enough. And again, when we're talking about the statistics and the housing crisis, I think people switch off. And I think we have to talk about what this means for people every single day.

If your home is in bad condition, if there is black mould on the walls, I see that all the time in private rented properties that I go into. If you're living with no living room, four or five other people, how will you ever find a space to feel calm and safe? We know that private renters are more likely to experience anxiety and depression. We know from studies in the US that when you're evicted, you're more likely to have suicidal thoughts. The toll that housing instability takes on a person's psychology is huge. And we are not talking enough about the human cost of this crisis. Vicky Spratt, thank you very much. The book is called Tenants

and covers a great deal more detail, in more detail, some of the ground that we've managed to cover this morning. Anastasia says, please do not forget also about accessible housing. I have access needs.

I have cerebral palsy. Also wanting to put that on the agenda, something I know Vicky has written about and knows a great deal about too. But I did also promise you today a chance to listen to one of you, a listener directly. I mean, throughout all of the programmes,

I always intersperse, if I can, your messages. But we had one of you, Christian Peake, get in touch with us about her grandmother because she inherited something, or rather a few things from her, a huge stack of canvases painted by her grandmother, the artist something, or rather a few things from her, a huge stack of canvases painted by her grandmother, the artist Maeve Gilmore, who died when Christian was 11 and whose artistic work had been overshadowed by her more famous husband, Mervyn Peake. A busy

teacher and mother herself, Christian, she didn't know what to do with them. And as time went on, though, she became increasingly determined to get Maeve's work the recognition she feels it deserves. She's now created an online gallery at Maeve Gilmore Archive on Instagram with underscore between the words. We'll put this on the website and her grandmother's first exhibition is currently on at Studio Voltaire in Clapham, London. So what were Christian's early memories of her grandmother's art? I suppose the overriding memory was her house. She used her house as a canvas, so all of the walls were covered in her murals. And I think that was probably what I remember sitting having Sunday lunch and just looking around, there was so much to look at.

Every surface was painted, not just the walls, also the furniture and the exposed pipes were snakes. Really? The door panels were windows with family looking in at them. So that's my overriding memory, sitting there looking at those and thinking, wow. She painted a playroom for all of her children at the top of the house and she did the same up there. It was covered covered completely covered and we featured in it and our my father and my uncle fabian and my aunt claire and they all featured in it and different aspects of the family life sark featured in there the family donkey featured in their family pets

and that she wanted to do for us she just wanted to give us a room that was for us my brilliant cousin lewis has turned the photographs into a vr thing i don't really understand so virtual reality yeah virtual reality it's exactly because the the house is no longer in the family and and the walls have been painted over yeah the house was gutted they couldn't keep it was in kensington and nobody had the money to sustain that as a kind of charleston situation. So my uncle Fabian went in and photographed everything. Oh, that's good. Yeah, and he did it brilliantly. He didn't just take snaps.

He lit the rooms and he did an amazing job. So Lewis has been able to recreate that and it is like going back in there. It's a very short film, but it's incredibly moving. And he's only done it in the last few days, finished it off. And it's being able to walk into the house and walk around again is really incredible you have a very arty family we should say and she your grandmother was surrounded by by that and by a lot of men yeah doing well yeah

by a lot of men doing well and her husband the writer and artist Mervyn Peake, his career was what bought the money, very little money, but the money into the home, his commissions, his illustrations and his writing his Gormenghast novels, which she edited. They were sent back to her during the war and she edited them. She wrote them out by fingertip and babies, books and nappies. She said the three most important things in life. She had a huge part to play in his career. And actually, she was the woman who the person who was chiefly responsible for a lot of his increasing popularity.

But she set her career aside in order to do that. So perhaps if she hadn't done that she would have been more well known but then she was painting in the 30s and 40s and women it was it was tough it was tough for her to have her own career and is it right that the paintings that you were given that came to you went under your bed or a bed in the loft for a while there are so many of them that they are everywhere um and i say that with respect but we inherited them after my dad died in 2012 and it's a wonderful problem to have but it is a problem when you inherit hundreds and hundreds of canvases because what do you do with

them there isn't you know if you inherit i suppose silver or crockery there's a place you can go to with paintings there is nowhere to go to respectfully you know you don't want to flog them you don't want to kind of undersell her so I started to go through them when I was on maternity leave and I had underestimated her as we all had and I I could see that this was her work was greater than we had actually kind of always been led to believe, I suppose. She put herself second to him. His work is very well known. Hers is of the family.

So hers was always domestic. And I think it was not seen as important. It was her sons. It was the onions. It was the family cat. And now the domestic gaze and what she was looking at, what women were looking at, is seen as something valuable but then it wasn't.

Which is why you fought pretty hard, I understand, to get her work, this exhibition and wider acclaim. You wrote to us here at Woman's Hour. I did. I'm very happy you did. I did, I was so bold. I love hearing from our listeners. Why does it mean so much for you?

Because I believe in her and her work entirely. She taught me how to champion somebody else. And that's what I wanted to do very much for her legacy and to honour her and the work. I didn't want to have the paintings somewhere where they weren't going to be given the respect that they were due. But I didn't know where to go. And there isn't a door you can knock on you can't like I did here you can't just knock on Tate's door and say hi hello do you want to I mean I did try but they don't you know

well maybe after this exhibition well you know they've been they've been I mean it's been absolutely brilliant the reception to it and and she's the only place I could go to when I first started was Instagram. I thought I'd never been on it. I didn't have a social media account, not on Facebook or anything like that. And I started that way as an online exhibition, I suppose. You've got a painting of hers. Well, you've got many, as you say, but there's one particular of a woman and child that hangs in your home.

Yes. Tell us a bit more about that. What does that mean? Where does it hang as well? It hangs on the staircase that is actually in the middle of the kitchen. So it's the place that is most seen, I suppose, the central place. And the mother's breasts are exposed and the child is pulling at her dressing gown. And she's reaching out towards a kind of open door that is repeating the image and she has a rose in her hand that to me depicts

what you want as a mother, where you want to be but you're tied to this domestic. You can't get there. For now. Yeah. That's the whole. Yeah, exactly. But it's out there and she's repeating it

through this image of the open door and through this rose, this beautiful rose of where you can get to. And the silhouette of the rose actually forms a gun or which I know sounds extremely savage or a knife, a weapon. But for me, I felt that lots of talk about motherhood is not very honest. And I found it really really tough I've got three children and I love them dearly I love motherhood in many ways but I found the domestic very lonely and very hard and I would look at that and it would make me feel reassured you know she writes about parenthood and the constant demands of domesticity and the endless meals. That's something I really relate to.

Your face as you said that. I just really love it when women, I have a shared experience and it doesn't make you feel like you're wrong or bad for feeling like this is tough. Well, this is what this programme is all about. Do you paint? Do you draw? I work with clay, but I'm a teacher I don't have the emotional stamina and resilience to be an artist I've seen it at close hand and it's tough you know

you're exposing your innermost self to the world and your thoughts and how you view life and I don't have the strength for that I admire so much artists that do that and you know I think people can often be a bit dismissive about creative people in general you know and that somehow it's a kind of cop-out or it's easy and it's not a proper job but it's what humanity is that expression of self and imagination and she was raised in a convent. She was convent reared and she called going to art school and meeting Merv in the beginning of living and that life had gone from black and white to colour.

Art gave her an incredible platform of expression. And maybe because she didn't have an audience particularly, she was able to process and I think you were talking about that earlier in the week processing pain through art and she you know through Mervyn's long long illness she processed a lot of her feelings about that through her work and it gave her that freedom to express herself what What did you call her? What was your name for her? Did you call her Grandma?

Granny Maeve. Granny Maeve. And what would Granny Maeve make of having this show, do you think? Well, this is the week of her 105th birthday and I think she'd be absolutely delighted and thrilled, as we all are, to be able to see her and her work on the walls in Studio Voltaire just off Craffam High Street it's a strange feeling because there's an exposure there's a vulnerability of seeing such familiar work out there on the walls but it's a joy and I feel like I can go happy through the rest of my days knowing that I've I've brought her closer to people who can

appreciate her work and see her for the wonderful artist she was and your grandma and my granny and a great fabulous grandmother lovely to talk to you thank you so much for getting in touch in the first place thanks so much for having me Christian Peake talking about her grandmother Maeve Gilmore and those images you can see on Instagram, Maeve Gilmore archive, and they're really worth checking out. Very beautiful indeed and powerful and very honest too. Now, a new report by healthcare charity Doctors of the World reveals that some migrant women have been charged up to £14,000

for NHS maternity services in England. The survey of 257 migrant women, including undocumented, refugee and asylum-seeking women, shows that over a third have received a bill for maternity care. The bills range from £296 to £14,000, with half of those receiving a bill being charged more than £7,000. Well, to discuss the findings, I'm joined by Anna Miller, Head of Policy and Advocacy at Doctors of the World. And shortly, we will hear from Kemi, who received a bill for nearly £5,000

after having an emergency C-section. Anna, good morning. Good morning. Hello, Emma. Why was this report commissioned in the first place? At Doctors of the World's clinic we provide medical care and support to people who are struggling to access nhs services we have a specific clinic for pregnant women and we were continually seeing that the women who were coming to us first of all they weren't registered with the nhs with the gp with the NHS, they had very little idea about what they were entitled to and what they could access. And in particular, that they were accessing antenatal care very late,

either because they thought they weren't entitled to it, or as they tried to access antenatal care, they experienced barriers and challenges. And so they're getting a much lower level of antenatal care. And I'm sure your listeners will be very aware of the crucially important role that antenatal care plays in planning and preparing for a healthy pregnancy, a healthy delivery, and ultimately a healthy baby. So we were aware that it was a big problem that the women we were seeing weren't getting antenatal care. And some being charged who shouldn't be. Of course, some are exempt and some do have to pay.

Yes. So of the women that we saw and the women in this report, about a third of them, the data shows about a third of them, are charged for their NHS maternity services. It's quite a complicated system. The general principle is that if you're somebody who doesn't have a formal immigration status, you'll be charged.

So refugees and asylum seekers aren't charged, but people without formal immigration status. And just to tell you a bit more about who those women are, and so 50% of the women didn't have a formal immigration status so of those women the people who we see most commonly they're people who used to have a visa and they've been unable to renew their visas so their visa has expired quite often that is connected to the enormous costs involved in renewing visas. It costs thousands of pounds per person to renew a visa. So very often we see people who used to have a visa have just been simply unable to keep up with those costs and slipped into undocumentedness.

Another group of women that we see is people who are going through the asylum system and go for a period of time without any immigration status. And that's most commonly because they've received initially a negative decision from the Home Office. That's very common. The Home Office quite often makes negative decisions and then the person that has to appeal it and then they are recognised and found to be a refugee. So it's quite common for asylum seekers to also fall into this category of people without immigration status. Those are the people who end up getting charged for maternity services. And as you said, the bills, most of the bills were over £7,000. We saw bills going all the way up to £14,000. Let's hear from Kemi at this point, directly from someone who's been through part of this and had an experience.

She was charged £4,900 for an emergency C-section, despite being on a student visa issued before the charging regime started in April 2015. She received the bill less than two weeks after her baby was born. I started by asking her when we spoke just before I came on air this morning, what the document that she received, what that bill said. The letter says I need to pay the money, otherwise they will take my details to the Omer Fais. So the implication of that letter was that it would have an impact on your ability to stay in the UK? Yes, the letter says it's going to have an implication for me to stay in the UK. And what impact did that have on you? You know, it was so soon after you had your baby.

It has a lot of impact on me, on my mental health, or even on my physical being. It affected me a lot. Not just my mental health, it made me homeless because when I opened the letter, my landlady saw it and she was scared of the home office because everybody is scared of anything called home office. She drove me and my baby out of the house and said she's scared of home office coming to our house. So you actually lost your accommodation?

Yes, I did lose my accommodation because of the bill. And where did you go or what did you do at that point? It was a long story. I started sleeping out with a new baby, sleeping on the bus, doing so many things I'm not supposed to do with a new child on my hand. So it was really, really tedious for me. And in terms of getting back on your feet,

you know, trying to get yourself sorted again, how did you do that and how long did that take? It took me a lot until I started going to all these mothers and baby charities where they now told me that I could seek asylum but even before the seeking asylum when I was sleeping I was sleeping rough as soon as yeah I hear any siren the police siren coming up I got I get scared thinking they're coming for me because we have the mentality that I have the mentality that when the siren police are coming

because the home office are always there with the police, so every time I'm scared, even turning my back, as soon as I hear the siren, then I didn't know the difference between the ambulance siren and the police siren. If I hear even the ambulance siren coming, my heart starts beating. I was so scared. Until later on, I know that I can seek asylum

before I know I seek asylum. I imagine this fear will be with you for a long time. Even till now, every time I hear the siren, that fear is still in me. Even now that I've even got to my sectors, it's still inside me because it can never go. It's like a wound that can never heal. How do you feel accessing healthcare now? Now I feel it's okay because I've got my status.

But many people still find it difficult to access. I just came in with my son who is 10 years old. I tried to register for him. That's even a child. I tried to register for him. That's even a child. I tried to register for him in a GP. The GP still refuses to register him because he doesn't have proof of immunisation. Eventually, after three months,

they register my son. I'm so scared of going to GP. I don't want to go to GP because they might not answer me. When you mention about your status, you haven't had to pay those fees, I should say, and you have subsequently obtained refugee status. But from what you've just said,

it's still a far from ideal situation when it comes to navigating healthcare, paperwork, and accessing what is or is billed as being available to someone with your status. It sounds very difficult. Very difficult, especially when you don't have a proof of address to yourself or proof of identity. Sometimes they will tell you they can't take you. It's the GP policy. It's very difficult for people, especially the migrants coming in to people, to register for a GP.

That was Kemi. Still with me, Anna Miller, Head of Policy and Advocacy at Doctors of the World. What do you want to see change? Well, Kemi's story that she's just described is obviously an appalling situation for any mother to be in and it's by far from unusual it's it's the story of many of the women that we see in our clinics so we feel like the need for change is is urgent it is very urgent what we would like to see changing is this policy of charging pregnant migrant women for maternity care to be we would like to see this policy dropped and of course partially that is because of the impact on

mum and baby you know we need to not forget at the centre of all of this there is a child a newborn baby who we would all agree that every child deserves the absolute best start in life and this is a terrible situation for a child to be born. If I may just at this point of course we do have a statement I should say from the Department of Health which says all refugees, asylum seekers and victims of modern slavery are exempt from NHS treatment costs. While some migrants or visitors to the UK may be required to contribute. We've always been clear urgent care should never be delayed or withheld over charges, financial charges, including all maternity services. Patients should be told if costs apply to them, but they should not be discouraged from receiving the remainder of the maternity treatment. And they also say trusts can also write off owed payments if someone is genuinely unable to afford it.

Just talking to you, of course, in the context, we started the whole programme returning to COVID, but what's the NHS under pressure, but also some concern around what have been described as maternity tourists, not getting those women confused, of course, with refugees, with those that we've been talking about, those who are exempt. What do you say to those who are concerned about that as a context with COVID, but also that sort of what's been described as tourism, health tourism?

What do you say to that? Sorry, Anna. Oh, I'm so sorry. You're not not answering me. You've just frozen on the screen there. We're hoping to get you back. Of course, these are the perils, I suppose, of having these sorts of conversations. But as I say, in that particular statement from fees have been, that she hasn't had to pay those fees, just in case you are making sure you want to know the end of that story. But just to be clear, all refugees, asylum seekers and victims of modern slavery are exempt from NHS treatment costs. But as you were hearing there, I'm so sorry we couldn't get a final answer from the head of policy and advocacy at Doctors of the World. They're pushing for all of those costs to be removed. And of course, I'm sure we'll talk about that again,

a very live issue indeed about what rights and abilities people who come to this country have. And of course, a very live issue in the news at the moment with regard to who can stay here and how that's going to be implemented as government policy or not. As always, thank you very much for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back. The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special that will chill you to the bone. It was a real dream holiday, really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell. Whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm.

They wanted to frighten us. The Uncanny Summer Special, out now. What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.