Woman's Hour - The Killing Kind author Jane Casey, AI in IVF treatment, The Knock - Evie's story

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

Crime author Jane Casey joins Nuala McGovern to talk about a new six part TV adaptation of her best selling book The Killing Kind. The legal thriller starring Emma Appleton has themes such as stalking and coercion as she plays a lawyer who tries to rebuild her life after getting too close to a former client. Emma also joins Nuala in the studio.In the second part of our series The Knock, Jo Morris talks to a woman we are calling Evie who chose to stand by and support her brother after he pleaded guilty to sex offences against children. Why did she make that decision and what has it cost her?Some British women are now being offered IVF treatment using artificial intelligence. The software is used to help select the best embryo for implantation. So how might AI improve the chances of a successful pregnancy? Nuala is joined by Suzanne Cawood, Director of Embryology at the Centre for Reproductive and Genetic Health, a private clinic in London, which has been using AI and offering it as an 'add-on' to patients. We also hear the regulator the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's position on such practices.In a historic ruling, the Mexican Supreme Court has decriminalised abortion at the federal level. The two leading candidates in next year’s elections in will both be women, meaning that Mexico expects to have its first ever female leader. So, is the country having a feminist revolution? Nuala speaks to Daniela Philipson-Garcia, a PhD scholar and specialist on Mexico's gender policies.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, this hour we'll discuss the significance of Mexico's Supreme Court decriminalising abortion. We'll also talk about its feminist foreign policy and learn about the two leading presidential candidates who are both women. Also today, there's a Girlguiding survey out, you might have seen it this morning, looking at girls' attitudes and well-being. It did raise

concerns about their happiness overall, but there was one aspect that struck us and it's this. By the age of 30, 52% of girls wanted to own their own house, their own home, and 48% of them wanted to be married. And I'm wondering, does any of that resonate with you? What do you want to achieve by the time you're 30, if you've thought about it? Or what did you want to achieve and did you do it? Or maybe like looking back, how do you see those aspirations now? Well, to get in touch with the programme, you can text us that number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website

and for WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100444 What did you want to achieve by the time you hit 30? Also today, crime writer Jane Casey, she'll be here with actor Emma Appleton to talk about a new legal thriller,

a TV series called The Killing Kind. And we have another story from our series, The Knock. It tells the story of what ensues after a loved one is arrested for sexual offences against children. You might have heard one instalment yesterday, so that continues. All to come this hour on Woman's Hour. But I want to turn first to this story.

Some British women are now being offered IVF treatment using artificial intelligence, or AI. The software is used to help select the best embryo for implantation and is said to be able to pick up on things that the human eye cannot detect. So how might AI improve the chances of a successful pregnancy? Suzanne Kaywood is Director of Embryology at the Centre for Reproductive and Genetic Health in London and has been researching and also using AI technology in her practice. Welcome, Suzanne. Hi, morning. So talk us through that. Why did you decide to utilise AI in the practice?

Well, essentially with IVF, it's a very competitive market. We're always striving to improve patient pregnancy rates wherever we can. So we're always looking for the latest, most innovative research. So essentially, we want to try everything that looks promising to help women get pregnant. And this is a private IVF clinic that you work at? I work at a private IVF clinic. We also do perform some NHS cycles, but we are primarily private, yes. So let's talk about that. I mean, it's interesting even that you describe it as a competitive marketplace.

Indeed, it is certainly in London. There are 40 IVF centres just in London and patients are, they are primarily patients, but they're also customers. And they can shop around for, you know, they want to make sure the clinic is right for them. They want to make sure it's in the right location. They've got the right doctor. They've got the right scientists for them. So we really do need to try our best to seek to their needs. So with AI, you know, if you look at some of the headlines, it might in some way give inflated hope, perhaps. How does it really work in IVF treatment?

It's a good question. So the way it works is you put the embryos into an incubator. And this incubator takes photographs of the embryos every 15 minutes. So by the time you come to select an embryo to transfer back into the uterus, then the AI, the computer essentially has thousands of images of these embryos and millions of data points. It can see when the embryo reached a certain time period. It gets the two cells, three cells, four cells at specific time periods. It also notes the levels of fragmentation. And fragmentation being what might be an issue, a concern.

Yes, exactly. So as an embryo divides, it can spew out parts that it doesn't want, basically. So the more fragmentation in general, the poorer quality, but it can just detect everything, all the morphokinetics within an embryo. So and then obviously, because there are millions of data points, just an embryologist, a human being, whilst we can pick up on lots and see the main issues that we're looking for, which promote implantation, we can't possibly analyze every bit of data from every embryo. So what the computer does, what artificial intelligence does, is look at all of that data in seconds, and simply give the embryo a score, which it believes

gives it an implantation, a pregnancy indicator. So it would be a potentially more successful embryo to implant that might result in a successful pregnancy? Yeah, so AI itself, of course, doesn't change the chance of an embryo becoming a baby. Of course, it can't do anything to do that. But what it can do is make the embryologist choose the embryo which is going to become a baby so if you had four embryos to choose from an embryologist might think actually this one looks nicer but AI will say actually you've missed something this one we think is more likely to become a baby. But we have heard with AI that it's only as good as the information that's been put into it to begin with. Absolutely.

And wherever it's getting that data from. And also that there can be a margin of error because we're in somewhat early stages in certain industries, perhaps also with IVF. Of course. I mean, the data that's put in, it detects the movement of the embryo. So that, you know, the data that's put in, it's coming from the embryo itself. Okay, yeah. However, the margin of error is a very good point. And certainly, when we use AI, we don't rely on it. We double check everything the computer says. And we do notice that, you know, within 5 to 10% of the time, it misses something,

or we disagree with something, because it's just, you know, it's just the computer saying, oh, we think it's gone to a three cell here. But actually, we don't think that was a cell, we think it was just a large fragment. So I would certainly never want anyone to rely on AI on its own. It has to be a hybrid model with the scientists. So it's a sort of combined effort. It's almost like having a second opinion. Okay, interesting. And so that's at this point. But do you see AI taking over in the future? I really don't because I don't because of the reasons you just said. I think the more it's used, the more reliable it will become, the more accurate it will come. Because so at CRGH, we've been using it for two and a half years. We didn't offer it to patients until January because, I mean,

we see a lot of patients. So it's just a few months, really? Yes. No, it really is. We had 18 months worth of research and seeing how it worked. Because the other thing is, is it's different in every laboratory because embryos act differently in different laboratories. Why? I know that sounds crazy because we create a womb-like environment, but every lab uses a different incubator, different culture media. We have different temperatures, pH, osmolality.

There are so many factors that we create. And yes, whilst an embryo will always, should develop at a certain time, it might be slightly, and we're talking tiny fractions, you know, a minute or two minutes difference between labs. And that will impact the algorithm. So each lab will have to use, will have to have AI in its lab, I believe.

Well, it depends how big the lab is. But, I mean, we processed tens of thousands of embryos before that we felt comfortable using it. And that's to form our algorithms in our centre. And that's what I'm interested. That's your team, the people you're working with that are making those decisions. But are there any peer reviewed evidence yet that AI increases the chance of the embryos that are controlled by AI, for want of a better term, or observed by AI? Observed by AI, for want of a better term, or observed by AI. Observed by AI. No, I don't think there is any good, solid kind of prospective evidence

to say that it improves success rates. Yes, there are lots of preliminary studies which are showing really promising data and there have been some claims that it's improving success rates by X amount, for example. At CRGH, we are not using the technology saying it improves rates because we haven't seen that yet because the other thing i'm thinking of for a person going through this um you have to have the embryos to begin with

exactly right okay you have to have eggs you have they have to fertilize they have to grow to a certain rate and this is almost like that that final step there's an awful lot that's outside in the whole process that's away from actually ai or away from this particular process you know you have to have come a long way before you get to that point and does it make that bigger i suppose the other question is does it make a huge difference whether it's embryo number one or embryo number two that's implanted if they look pretty similar to the embryologist's eye? Yeah, I mean, that's an incredibly good point. It's not going to help people because, as I said, the embryo will become a baby or it won't. So AI isn't going to change that. It's not, AI isn't going to help people who have had, you know, decades of failed IVF because it really is helping those fortuitous patients who end up with a good number of embryos to choose from.

So say you, you know, a patient had four embryos. One of those embryos was destined to become a baby. The other three, you know, were destined to be miscarriage failure. What it means is maybe the embryologist wouldn't pick the baby until number three. And your point is, well, does it matter? Because they'll get the baby eventually. It does matter. Well, it's not just money. I mean, yes, IVF costs a lot of money, there is a financial burden. There's a huge physical burden going through IVF, there's a huge psychological burden. And it impacts every negative you have every miscarriage,

it can really affect women, people might not come back for that third transfer because it's been so traumatic. They might not be able to afford to. And it just, yeah, so it's absolutely important. It's so important to get that pregnancy as soon as you can. Let me turn to the HFEA, which are the regulating body. They gave us a statement on the use of AI in IVF treatment. They say that they've concerns about, and I quote, the inappropriate use of some treatment add-ons when patients are paying for extras to their routing treatment with claims it will increase the chance of success.

Of course. The HFEA are a really important part of IVF in the UK. They're a fantastic body and they are there for the patients to make sure that clinics don't take advantage of them in a very vulnerable position that they are in. So it's and as I said to you there isn't the evidence yet so the HFA are of course going to come out and say until there is that evidence we are not going to promote its use. At CRGH what we are saying is we are not claiming that AI increases success rates at the moment we're hoping that it will certainly and what we are saying is we are not claiming that AI increases success rates at the moment. We're hoping that it will, certainly. What we're using it for is just yet another tool to help us select embryos. But also, and as an additional feature, it actually just gives the patient a fantastic

experience when they come through for IVF, because it's, as I was saying, it is so traumatic, it really can be. And also, there's such a loss of control when your embryos, your egg sperm, and then subsequent embryos are in the lab. You don't know what's going on. And actually what we do is we give the patients a live feed to their phone or their computer or their... Really? Yeah. And so they can, at any point in the day, they can just go on and look at their embryos, all their embryos. They can see how they're developing. They can see what they're doing. So, and they give these really quite fancy looking reports. So for us, we're using it just as a way to be completely transparent with our patients. And when we discuss with them every day, we talk to the patients every day and say, this is what your embryo is doing. They can actually see their embryo when we're talking to them. So they can say, oh, yes,

I can see that one's doing well. It looks really lovely. You know, they are their little babies, and they can talk about them as such. I mean, I'm astonished by that in many ways some might be concerned that it's like you're getting to a level of granular detail that maybe will make you invest more hope yeah like I mean the figures you can spell them out for me. But for IVF, they're incredibly low for somebody to have a successful pregnancy. They are. I mean, the national average is only around 30%. Right. So we're talking about 70% that won't work. Yeah. I mean, in our clinic, fortunately, we do have quite higher rates than that. But I see it doesn't work for everybody.

So is it going to be getting their hopes up? Are they going to get more attached? Yeah. I mean, I would argue that they do get really attached. Their hopes, of course, their hopes are already up. And it's a choice. A patient doesn't have to log in. They don't have to choose this service of having the embryos. And if they fear that they will get too attached or they can, you know, the other thing is, is they can maybe and some of our patients choose to do this. They don't look at the live footage and they don't have that. But then if they fall pregnant, they can go back and have that video. So they can have that, you know, seven days worth of footage and then they've got that forever.

Now, let me, really interesting, let me turn to the full statement from the HFEA. This is Claire Ettenhausen, Director of Strategy and Corporate Affairs for HFEA. They say the HFEA has raised concerns for many years about the inappropriate use of some treatment add-ons when patients are paying for extras to their routing treatment, which I mentioned, with claims they will increase their chances of success. We would advise patients to be extremely cautious about paying extra for tools such as this, where there have been some good studies,

but no evidence to show that it has an effect on outcomes. We know that for the vast majority of patients, more rounds of proven treatment could be more effective than paying for unproven add-ons. The HFEA will be launching a new and more informative treatment add-on rating system for patients next month, which will include AI techniques such as time-lapse imaging using AI. The rating system will offer information for defined patient groups and outcomes other than just live birth. For example, whether an add-on reduces the miscarriage rate in older women.

In the meantime, clear and unbiased information is available at www.hfea.gov.uk. And we strongly encourage patients to use this information when talking to their clinics. At your clinic, is AI considered an add-on that would be charged for?

It is an add-on which is charged for, but we do not claim that it's increasing your pregnancy rate. So as I said, we use it as the tool for them to be able to view their images, to get some more reports. So it is a chargeable add-on, yes. I understand. Because this is something, of course,

we've spoken about a number of times on Women's Hour. But interesting, we should continue following it because as you mentioned, this is just the past few months that has come into action where you are working at. Suzanne Kaywood, Director of Embryology

at the Centre for Reproductive and Genetic Health. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. And thanks to you for all your messages coming in about being 30. Let me see.

I wanted to buy a home, get married and have a baby by 30. I bought a house, I got married and had a baby at 30 i bought a house i got married and had a baby at 31 i was also divorced by 30 and the baby's dad was not my ex-husband okay i'm following this this was in 1993 and life rarely happens according to your plan it was much much easier to buy an affordable home back then it's barely within the grasp of young women today who are also disadvantaged in the labor market. I'm about to turn 60.

In my 20s, I wanted to be married by 25 and have completed having children by 30. I was married at 25 and had my second and final child, aged 30 and 24 days. So pretty good. I'm still happily married and I'm enjoying being a fairly young woman about to turn 60.

Grandchildren, please. That's from Ezra, if her kids are listening. Hi, Woman's Hour hour my goal before turning 30 was getting on the property ladder I've managed it at 27 the key was leaving London so says Hannah

so to get a key you had to leave London that was the key thank you for your messages 84844 please keep them coming now yesterday

if you were with me, it was the first of our series, The Knock, and we talked to a woman whose life was blown apart when police turned up at her door and told her that her husband had been arrested. Today, the story of a woman we're calling Evie, and her words, I should say, have been voiced up by an actor. The knock, in this case,

came in the form of a phone call completely out of the blue. Understandably, it's a very emotional subject for Evie to talk about. Now, before recording the interview, she had said to our reporter, Jo Morris, that she was feeling apprehensive. Why? I think I'm apprehensive because it's such an emotive subject. It's emotive for the listener. I don't want people to view me as somebody that is kind of belittling the victims of the crime and feeling like it's all about me. So I'm feeling really nervous about how my story comes across.

Evie, what was your life like before all of this happened? How would you have described your life? I think I was in a really good place. My youngest child was just about to start school and I was thinking that I was going to get a little bit of free time back. At this time I was actually looking into different university courses to go back and do an additional Masters in social work. So you wanted to be a social worker? I did yeah yeah but that since changed because of the family situation. If someone had told you this was going to happen

what would you have thought? I had never once considered that anyone in my family would commit a crime and certainly not this type of crime. Now I've like racked my brains and gone over everything over and over in my head. Were there any clues I could have picked up on? And there was just no prior warning. And I think that's why it's such a shock, because you have absolutely no idea that's going to happen until you literally find yourself in it. Can you take me back to the day your life changed? I had a house full of kids. They were all running around upstairs and I could hear loads of crashes and bangs and the phone rang. I remember thinking as I went to pick it up that I hope the kids keep

quiet so that I can actually hear the caller on the end of the phone. When I picked up the phone the person said they're from social work and that they're phoning about a child protection incident concerning my kids and I remember thinking initially oh they've obviously got the wrong family because I knew my kids were safe and happy and that there hadn't been an incident and then they went on to say that my brother had been arrested for viewing images of children's abuse and that it was of a sexual nature and that they were seeking reassurance that my kids would never speak to or see their uncle again. And I gave them the reassurance that they were looking for and then I put down the phone. I was just so shell-shocked that

I actually couldn't remember afterwards whether I'd been speaking to a male or a female. It was just all such a blur. I believed what they told me, but I couldn't comprehend what they told me. I called my husband and said there'd been a family emergency. So he thought there'd been a death in the family. So he rushed back and he was able to take the kids back and stuff because I didn't feel able to really communicate with anybody. The social worker had been quite brusque and quite rude and matter of fact and hadn't really shown like a hint of compassion or even acknowledged that this would be life-changing. It was just like, almost just like a tick box,

like running through a list of tasks. Yeah, family-informed type thing. Did they offer, did they signpost anything, a way you can get help or anything? No, there was absolutely no support given at all, absolutely nothing. When the social worker said to you, can you confirm that your children won't see your brother again? And you said yes. Can you remember what thoughts were running through

your mind? It's just really hard to go from there being nothing, no clue, to being told that you've got a sex offender in the family. In that moment, what changed for you? I guess just a sense of identity and security. So I guess prior to that moment, I'd felt quite secure within myself and within my community, and then afterwards I felt very vulnerable and unable to trust myself or trust anything actually in life. It was like my whole entire life was turned upside down, really. We did find out that night, he said he had done it, that he was guilty and my husband spoke to him.

I couldn't speak to him at that point because I was just so upset. For the entire weekend, I had to tell my kids I was feeling sick because I couldn't get out of my bed, which isn't like me. I was just crying nonstop and I was crying because of a whole multitude of reasons. Like I'd see my children playing and then I would cry for the victims. And then if they came up to me to give me a hug or a cuddle or something, I would cry for the victims and then if they came up to me to give me a hug or a cuddle or something I would cry for the victims again knowing that they were alone and that they had nobody to turn to and just knowing that a member of my family had made their plight so much worse and then on the Monday social services actually phoned the school without telling us.

I remember I had to run across to the school and I just broke down in the school when I told the headteacher what had happened. And the headteacher was luckily really reassuring and said that she'd keep an eye out for my kids. You OK? Yeah. And just make sure that they weren't... Make sure that they weren't being persecuted in the playground and just that she would take care of them. I was really lucky because, yeah, it didn't come out in the community, but I guess for a long time you don't know if it's going to come out.

So you're really paranoid that at any point somebody could find out. The house was full of kids prior, but we decided that we wouldn't have any play dates in the house. But obviously, I couldn't tell my children what we were doing. So we just had to keep making excuses. Oh, no, we'll go to the park and I booked them in for loads of clubs so that they would be effectively too busy to have anybody over the house and the reason we did that is because quite often it comes out when the case goes to trial and so for us that was a 14 month wait. The day your brother went to court, Evie, how were you feeling?

Well, we didn't know, obviously, if he was going to go to prison or not. He didn't go to prison. He got two years on the sex offenders register. You've made the decision not to tell people. Yeah. And you've also made the decision not to tell your mum and your stepfather. Why did you decide that? Because they wouldn't understand.

And my mum is also a victim of a sex offence. So it would be really tricky for her to understand. That's a big secret to have to keep from your mum. It's another person you can't talk to. I honestly feel like it would destroy them if they found out. Were you close to your brother growing up? We were close. We're different, as all siblings are, but we were close.

I was very protective of him because I'm the oldest and because of my parents' multiple health conditions. I ended up taking care of him quite a lot. He's always been very sensitive and I guess I'd always thought of him as being very vulnerable and if I was to look at him, I'd guess that he'd be more likely to be a victim rather than commit a crime.

But it's not the way it is. Although I think quite often those lines are blurred, aren't they? Could you match the person you thought you knew with what he'd been accused of? Not at all. He was caring and he was kind and he was thoughtful and he wasn't, I guess, what you see portrayed in the media. And I think that's why the shock is so great. There's nobody that gets the knock that's going, oh, I kind of had a suspicion.

How long was it before you saw your brother after he was arrested? I saw him after five days. I did know that if I didn't see him quite quickly afterwards, that I'd never be able to. Were you angry with him? Yeah. I was angry with him multiple times. My emotions weren't clear-cut. What was it like, that first meeting with him?

It was really stressful. I couldn't set foot in his flat because i viewed it as a crime scene so we met in the street and we went for a walk i remember seeing him walking down the street it was kind of dusk and the street lights were on and i could just see him as a broken man. Yeah, it was just really hard to know how we could ever get past it. I remember we spoke about a lot of things, mainly to do with crime, but also generally about how he was doing. And I remember asking, are you going to commit suicide?

And he said, not today. So you made the decision, Evie, to support your brother. How much did you wrestle with that decision? I felt like it was the right decision for me. I knew that I would support him for as long as he was trying really hard. And I did say to him that first time, there's no second chances. If you ever commit this crime again, I can't do this again. And I feel like because he's always taken responsibility

I feel like I've made the right decision for me and for my personal circumstance but I just felt really scared about how everybody else would view my decision. What were you scared of? Just that people would judge me that people would feel that I didn't think it was serious or that I wasn't thinking about the victims of the crime. But I was. That's like one of the main reasons that I made this decision to support because I feel like it's more protective of society to support. So what do you think you're doing by supporting him? I think that for him one of the triggers was intense loneliness and depression so if I'm supporting him to be less lonely and less depressed then I'm reducing the risk of him re-offending. It's just so taboo to say I still

love him. For some people it's easier to just cut off all connections, and I totally get that. I feel like whatever decision somebody makes, it's really important to respect that and to appreciate that there's no easy decision. You can't say to anybody, I'm really upset because my brother's a sex offender, but I still love him.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember once I felt really upset and I felt like I wanted to speak to somebody and I was tempted to phone the Samaritans but I didn't phone them because I felt like

it would take away from the real victims. Like that was a support service for real victims not me so I felt like I didn't deserve it I'm so sorry I was really lucky because my brother was offered support via a charity called stop it now and through that we found out that they did actually offer family support. I know that I'm one of the lucky ones to receive any support. And I think that most people don't. What impact do you think keeping the secret has on you and your family? Well, on a day-to-day basis,

it impacts what I do at work. So, like, I don't have a LinkedIn profile. I don't have a social media account. I don't put myself out there, despite working on some high-profile projects. Almost subconsciously, you're making a little risk assessment constantly in your head do you have children around the house now we do now yeah what's that what's that like for you

the first year I was probably still quite paranoid about it but now I feel like in this last year I've got to the point where I'm actually not thinking about it. I feel like that's really healthy. Given that secrecy is so crucial, why did you want to talk to us today? It's the only thing I can do to help. I wanted to reassure people that it's fine to make any decision. I chose to support, but somebody else might choose not not to and both are equally fine and equally valid and maybe it just helps to hear all sides of every story. When I was really upset I really wished that I could reach out to somebody else. By speaking to you today I'm hoping that somebody who's feeling really alone and isolated and feeling

like their life's about to end, I just hope that they can hear me and feel like they're not completely alone. You're not alone and it's not your fault. Evie, they're speaking to Jo Morris. There are sources of information and support on our website if you've been affected by any of the issues raised. On Friday, Anita will be speaking to the Lucy Faithful Foundation about their research into the impact of the knock on families and also the friends of men who are arrested for sexual offences against children. We'll hear what they're calling for and also hear what support families need.

I have been asking you from the beginning of the programme to send me your thoughts. What were your aspirations? What did you want to achieve by the time you were 30? Or what are you thinking that you'd like to achieve by the time you are 30? Lots of you getting in touch. Let me read a couple. This is Clementine in Berlin. I'm turning 30 in three months, by which time I will have a beautiful one-year-old son Let me read a couple. a teen I always said I didn't want children and instead wanted to have lived in at least three capital cities by the time I hit 30. I still have some wish for the latter and rather than feel I've ticked boxes or not by a certain age I will transition into my 30s looking forward to all the things still to be achieved alongside my family. Here's another from Lucy. In my early 20s I had ambitions to have travelled the world, be married and have had at least my first baby by the time I was 30.

Because I had it in my head that once I turned 30, it would be more dangerous to get pregnant. Then as my 20s ticked by and I wasn't achieving any of these things, I got depressed and frustrated about it. So much so, I think it was a contributing factor to my engagement breaking down. I'm now 32. I have travelled, but I want to do more. I don't have any children, but I do have a wonderful partner. But most importantly, I've let go of my deadlines and I'm realising I'm so much more confident and experienced in my 30s. Age is just a number.

And to think about it too much, I have found, is a dangerous mental health spiral. Thank you so much for the messages coming in. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. dangerous mental health spiral. Thank you so much for the messages coming in. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, let me turn to Mexico. It's going through a series of firsts. There was a historic ruling.

The Supreme Court has decriminalised abortion, making it a major victory for reproductive rights groups. They've been campaigning on this issue for years. And of course, there will be others very disappointed by this ruling. But it's also been announced that the two leading candidates in next year's elections will both be women,

meaning that Mexico expects to have its first ever female leader. So is the country having a feminist revolution or is the reality on the ground quite a bit different? I got to speak to Dan, Daniela Philipson Garcia.

She's a PhD scholar. She's also a specialist on Mexico and its gender policies. And I spoke to her from her hometown of Mexico City and asked her how significant this abortion ruling is. It is very significant. And before I get into it in more detail, I just want to point out two things that were missed in the media, especially abroad. So the first thing is that Mexico has a federal government. And this means that each state has its own constitution and its own criminal code, very much like in the United States. And the second one is that until two years ago, abortion was criminalized in every single state except in Mexico City. Two years ago in September 2021,

abortion was decriminalized at the state level. And so the significance of this recent ruling by the Supreme Court means that abortion is now decriminalized at the federal level. And although it was already decriminalized two years ago, this means that now federal health care will have to provide safe access to abortion, safe and timely access to abortion for all women and people who gestate. And this is very significant because 70 percent of the population is covered by federal health care. So the implications are massive yes how do you understand that huge pendulum swing well i think it's been gradual it hasn't been from one moment to the next so as i mentioned abortion was first decriminalized at the state level two years ago. And since then, we've seen this gradual increasing change. And ever since then, I mean, abortion was decriminalized in Mexico City several years

before that. And I think it's definitely been an achievement from activists across Mexico that have been chipping away at this issue for several years now. And it's definitely a win for activists across Mexico and for Mexican women everywhere who have been advocating for their rights. But this is, of course, a very contentious issue. Mexico is Latin America's second largest Catholic nation. It has popular conservative politicians as well.

And as we've seen north, of course, of Mexico in the United States, debates often continue despite what the laws may be that are on the books. Is this something that there were also lots of groups that were on the other side hoping that this wouldn't happen? Absolutely. It is a very contentious issue. I think it's not just in Mexico and north of the border here in Mexico. I think it's worldwide. We're seeing these far-right conservative movements growing across the world, and Mexico is definitely not the

exception in that regard. And I think it's very troubling to see what the spillover effects are from that mobilization north of the border, how it's spilling over to Mexico, what the potential effects could be there. Because although we do have these organizations in Mexico that are pushing back against abortion, they are definitely not as well organized and as well funded as they are in the United States. And we see that funded as they are in the United States. And we see that there could be organizations in the United States that are pouring funds and money into organizations in Mexico. So I think that is definitely a concern. So similar as it has been in many other countries as well when it comes to the issue of abortion. Does it mean with this change that any woman in Mexico who wants to get an abortion can and up until what time of a pregnancy?

They can up to 12 weeks. And there is one issue that I think it's very important to highlight, especially when talking about backlash. And it's that even though it's been the criminal code has is supposed to change in all states per the Supreme Court ruling in practice, it doesn't mean that every state legislation has actually implemented this change in the criminal code at the state level. And it's same now at the federal level. So what happened was that the court declared that it was inconstitutional to ban abortion completely, and now what happens is that federal Congress has to actually change the federal criminal code,

and that could take a while, and that could take up to many months. And until that happens, we do not know for sure that women will be able to access their rights. I understand. I want to go a little bit, zoom out a little bit when it comes to Mexico as well, away from this issue, because it's not the only policy that we want to talk about. Mexico became the first country in the global south to adopt a feminist foreign policy. That was in 2020. What does it mean? What does it mean? So Mexico is one country out of several that have adopted a feminist foreign policy,

which is this term that was first coined by Margaret Wallstrom in Sweden in 2014. And Mexico, in fact, becomes the first country from the global south to adopt this feminist foreign policy. And what it means is that its foreign policy is going to be guided by feminist principles. So in multilateral negotiations, specifically, Mexico will be siding with women's rights and with gender equality in all of their decisions and will take into account gender analysis when making decisions regarding foreign policy. Interesting, which leads me to, and it's probably not a result of that particular policy, but there is another manifestation of the female, shall we say, by the presidential candidates that

Mexico has at the moment. Do you want to talk to our listeners about the two that are currently running? So right now, the two leading presidential candidates for the 2024 election are women. So we have Claudia Sheinbaum on one side. Claudia Sheinbaum was most recently the mayor of Mexico City. She was the first elected female mayor of Mexico City. She was the first elected female mayor of Mexico City. And before that, she was president borough of a delegation in Mexico City as well. She is the protege of the current president, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, and she's running for Morena, which is associated with the left-wing party. Morena is more so the left-wing

party. And then on the other side, we have Xochitl Galvez. Xochitl was also a president borough in Mexico City, and she's now a senator for the PAN party, which is the conservative party in Mexico. However, she's running in representation of a coalition of three parties, which are PAN, PRI, PRD. And those parties are all across the spectrum, actually. So it's very interesting to see that they are now backing a female candidate who is also from an indigenous background from Hidalgo. And so they are the two main contenders for the presidential election next year.

And do they speak openly about feminist policies, for example? Well, they have both expressed their support for legalizing abortion and decriminalizing abortion. However, they don't particularly have a strong feminist record. And I think that because we are women, it doesn't necessarily mean that we are feminist. And that is certainly the case with them. They haven't really pushed for a gender perspective in their policies, neither as a senator. So she is a senator now or Claudia Sheinbaum as mayor of Mexico City. So I think it's too early to tell whether they will be embracing a broader

feminist agenda. And their record so far doesn't necessarily show that they will. I was asking at the beginning, really, whether Mexico is going through a feminist revolution. What would your answer be to it? I think it definitely is. But I think I see that more among my peers and my colleagues and across feminist activists. And I think it is a feminist revolution that is coming from the bottom up. And I think now politicians are realizing that feminists have a very strong political influence and have very strong political will and that they have to pay attention to what they're doing and what they're saying to be popular candidates. But is this...

And win elections. I mean, you mentioned a certain demographic there, of course, but is it generational, I'm wondering? I definitely think so. I think there are many issues that are generational. Of course, there is a legacy of women on whose shoulders we stand on as part of the feminist movement. And it's still an issue that I struggle to talk about with my mum and my grandmother. I'll say that. So let me sit at the dinner table for a moment with your mum and your grandmother. What might be an issue that you would disagree on? Definitely abortion is an issue that we would disagree on. I think my mom would be somewhat torn between my grandmother and I. My grandmother would definitely not be in favor.

My grandmother is very much a devout Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. My mother, not so much. And I'm definitely not. So I think that's where we would sit, where I am definitely in favour of. My mother is ambivalent and my grandmother is definitely very much against. Daniela Phillipson-Garcia, thanks very much to her

giving us some details about Mexico at the moment. You're giving me some details on what you wanted to achieve by the time you were 30. What about some of you that are in your 20s? Get in touch as well. What you're hoping to achieve by 30. But here are some. Here's Petta. She says, as a degree student in the 80s, I wanted a job that paid enough to buy my lunch sandwich from M&S and have my own secretary. A bit of a bigger ask. As I had avoided typing classes at school and I would be a manager when I grew up, I achieved both by 30,

although typing might help when computers were introduced to the workplace indeed. Mary got in touch, says, morning lovely woman's hour. I have just listened to what people were aiming for by 30. All great aspirations.

However, it is also very helpful not to put specific time frames on some of these things. Allow yourself to be open to opportunities as they arise and then enjoy them. Stress from not achieving those can hinder accomplishments as we were hearing a little from somebody else as well.

Hi Woman's Hour. I wanted to be married, have a family and own our own home by 30 and I had those things. I also wanted to feel confident and capable as an individual, have good mental health, feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm pushing 40 now

and those things are still a work in progress. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I wonder what my next guests were thinking about when they think about the number 30. I might come to that in a moment. But they are here because we want to talk about a crime drama. I'm joined by the award-winning author, Jane Casey,

whose novel The Killing Kind has been made into a TV legal thriller. It follows top flight barrister Ingrid, who successfully defends a man in court accused of harassment and stalking. And following the trial, Ingrid gets close to him. Too close. And when she tries to exit the relationship, he turns on her. Ingrid is played by Emma Appleton, who you might know, for example, Maggie, in Everything I Know About Love.

And they're both here in studio. Welcome to you both. Thank you for having us. Well, let me start with you, Jane. So you have a TV series that is reflecting in some ways what you were doing in the novel. Is it disconcerting to see it on screen? Because I'm sure you must have this imagination in your head generally hold true. One is that nothing ever gets made. And the other is that the author is never happy with the result. And in this case, not only did it get made, but I just think it's amazing. I have no critical faculties at this show. It honestly has completely overwritten what I had in mind when I wrote the book. It really embodies the spirit of the book in a very special way. Well, let's hear

a clip from episode one. Your character, as I mentioned, Emma, is Ingrid Lewis. She's been rebuilding her life after a relationship with her former client. His name is John Webster. It ended, then he stalked her, and this is the moment that he calls her out of the blue. Ingrid Lewis speaking. Ingrid, it's John.

I'm sorry to call you like this, but I didn't know what else to do. It was you. Please just listen to me, Ingrid. This is really important. I'm worried you might be in danger. You should not be calling me. Ingrid, we need to talk. Can I see you? Okay. Quite different from Maggie and everything I know about love.

How did you go about playing Ingrid? Because I just want to tell our listeners, I mean, so much of it is on you. The camera is on you. It's Ingrid, Ingrid, Ingrid. It's constant. It's actually really nice that they kind of break it up with some aerial shots of London occasionally.

That is the backdrop. How did I go about it? Well, I read the script and it's always a good sign when you read the script and you just want to keep reading more. You can't wait for the next episode. So that was a good sign. And I just really, I think what I found interesting is I didn't understand her. And I wanted to get to grips with her personality and psychology. What was it about her that you didn't understand?

I didn't understand how she could be a defence barrister and kind of compartmentalise all of those things in her mind of you don't know if someone's guilty or not even if you think you do you can't think about that because it's in their best interest and your best interest to give them the best defence possible so to be able to compartmentalise your brain like that I found absolutely fascinating because I cannot do that I'm not good at that um so to delve into someone else's mind like that is just a treat and and I think also she's not our typical victim I mean she's a hard-nosed barrister absolutely and I think especially with kind of female roles at the moment we're seeing less and less of your stereotypical victim.

And I think it's really good to see how any people from all walks of life and all different kinds of personalities can end up in these situations. Because it is about coercion in relationships and stalking. And these are issues we talk about, Jane, here on Woman's Hour. What was it that drew you to that with this particular novel? I mean, it was a combination of things. There's always a combination of things that goes into writing any book. I had experience when I was at university of having a lot of unwanted attention.

I think now we would call it stalking. But at the time, there was no sort of way of addressing that. It was just something that I lived with for three years. My husband is a criminal barrister. So I wanted to kind of show people what that world is actually like. I think it's one of those worlds that is so closed off. And most of us will never be involved in it. Most of us will never be actually in a court. So I wanted to kind of show what they do. And how did you do that?

Was it from talking to your husband or were you, I don't know, following him around? Yeah, 20 years at ringside seat. That was part of it, but also talking to female barristers who he works with. And the thing about barristers is they love telling stories. That's what they do in their job. So you just have to ask them one question and then the floodgates open. That's so interesting because you do have really when it opens, we're beginning to see the relationship between two female barristers, for example,

which I'm not going to give away any spoilers, but that is part of it. And perhaps some of those relationships that are there as well. Did you enjoy playing a barrister? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's so much fun,

especially because it's a job that I know I'm never going to be doing, purely because I just... So that wasn't some aspiration you had when you hit Turkey? No, no. This is the amazing thing about acting is I get to pretend to do loads of jobs

I know I wouldn't actually be able to do. So wearing the wig and wearing the gown and kind of like walking through court. Yeah, it was incredible. Let me turn to you, Jane, because you did decide to become a crime writer. And I was reading that women make up 80% of crime readers. That probably doesn't surprise you as it surprised me. No, it doesn't. I mean, if you do any events, you'll find they're very much dominated by

female readers. Why is that? I mean, I think, first of all, they're great stories. You know that you're guaranteed a good ending. So that's why crime is always going to be with us and successful as a genre. But also, I think women are really attuned to that feeling of threat. And we like to kind of explore it in a safe way. So if whether you're watching it on TV, or you're reading it in a book, it's kind of a very controlled environment. I think like a lot of men will not have stood outside a lift

looking in and thinking, I'm not going to get into that lift because I don't feel comfortable and I'll pretend to find something in my bag that I urgently have to do. That just doesn't happen. It's not on their radar. Whereas I think most women

will have had that experience. I'm curious to come back to your husband again. Did he realise or indulge with your fascination with his lifestyle? I mean, I always say we make all our money from crime. That's kind of my line. Your tagline. Fortunately, he's just as obsessed as I am. And he always has been.

And so we would always talk about these things together. And I want to come back to I saw an interview you did a couple years ago and you were talking about Ireland having a golden age of crime writers and crime writing and so many of those crime writers are female which I think would buck the trend in some ways. Why is it? It's a massive change for Irish writing I think you know when you look back at the Golden Age in England, it was probably Agatha Christie in the 1930s. That never happened

in Ireland. And I think there's something to be said about it being the first time that women have felt able to speak about these terrible things that do happen behind closed doors or secretly that were maybe swept under the carpet before. But, you know, I have a friend called Liz Nugent, who's a fantastic writer,

and she always says they're not going to shut us up now. And so is there a sisterhood there among the female crime writers? Like a really strong camaraderie. Yeah, we're all supportive of one another. It's really lovely. Yeah, it's so interesting. Why do you think it came about? Because sometimes it is a government policy or bursaries or something that ignites or is a catalyst for a creative outpouring.

I think you have to see something to know you can do it. So if you see someone succeed, then you know you can as well. And Tana French was very successful before this current wave of crime writers came out. So she was probably the first person who showed us all that it could be done. And what they're talking about, of course, Emma, is the type of character that you're playing with Ingrid.

And as I watch her and she's kind of going through this feeling paranoia or is a paranoia, you know, might still be out to get you. Is it draining to play that role yes it is um and in a way that i very much knew that was part of the job and i would still do it 10 times over absolutely but if you are putting yourself in a position of entering someone's mind who is paranoid and scared every day 12 hours a day for four months your brain doesn't really know the difference like chemically it doesn't know the difference so you're experiencing one of these feelings and as much you can go home and go it's make-believe we're making a story and you can leave it at the door it still does kind of take a bit of a toll and in my last

minute i'm coming back to i just checked you, you're 31. Did you have any aspirations to reach by the time you were 30? I really didn't. I've actually never thought about it. It was so interesting when I was hearing you say some of those and I was like,

did I have any aspirations? I think I've never looked forward to much and I've never really had any expectations. So everything that's happened to me, I'm so pleasantly surprised by. It's been a

wonderful career already at 31. What about you, Jane? I wanted to write a book. By the time you were 30, though, did you give yourself that deadline? I did, and just to finish it. And that became my first novel. And now, look at Jane Casey, whose novel, The Killing Kind, has been

turned into the TV series. You can watch it on Paramount+. Thank you both so much for coming in to us. Jane Casey and also Emma Appleton. So many messages coming in about your 30s. I wanted to help people by the time I was 30. I retrained as a counsellor. I would like to think I've helped many people since.

And that is Debbie. Here is another one that has come in. Morning Women's Hour. I turned 20 this year. And this last hour, I've been questioning what I want to do by the time I'm 30. As much as I want to be a mother, own a home and see the world, I think my main goal is to be happy wherever I am,

whoever I'm with, even if that's just myself, to understand my own emotions more and be more confident. Thanks. I've loved listening for the hour. And I have to say, I have loved presenting over the past few months because the mighty Emma Barnett will be back on Monday. So this will be my last Woman's Hour for a while. It has been such a privilege to get to know you. Thank you for welcoming me and for your immense and excellent contributions every day.

And thanks also to Karen DL, the editor of Woman's Hour and the wonderful team that puts this exceptional show together every day. I'll speak to you sometime soon. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What if I told you that death may not be inevitable? Is it possible that a fundamental of existence that we've always had as a species, that we will all inevitably die? Is that still true?

And that there are technologists promising everlasting life. We can and should use technology to enhance and expand and augment human capacities. Who's behind the modern movement for immortality? Where else do you find the promise of living longer or forever? It's just like religion and Silicon Valley. I'm Alex Kretosky. Find out on Intrigue the Immortals from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.