Woman's Hour - The Letters of Edith Thompson, Women in Westminister, Donor-conceived Children, Lucy Rout on Dragons' Den

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

One hundred years ago Edith Thompson and her lover Frederick Bywaters were hanged for the murder of her husband Percy, even though there was no evidence that she was involved with the killing. What condemned Edith were the letters that she had written to Freddy, which were interpreted by the law as incitement to murder. Laura Thompson has brought the letter together in a book Au Revoir Now Darlint. She joins Nuala to discuss the story and why the case still resonates a century later.A report out today by the charity the Fawcett Society has found a ‘toxic and exclusionary’ culture in Westminster which they say risks pushing out women MPs and having a damaging effect on democracy. Nuala is joined by Jemima Olchawski, CEO of the Fawcett Society as well as the Conservative MP Maria Miller who is Chair of the APPG on Women and Parliament and the Labour MP Stella Creasy who has campaigned for better maternity rights for MPs. When Nuala spoke about donor conceived children on Woman’s Hour last week, listener Hayley got in touch to share her own story, not only of being a donor conceived person herself, but of using a donor to conceive her own children too. She explains why she thinks it’s so important to be open and honest about your child’s conception.Dragons' Den has returned to our TV screens and the Dragons were impressed by Lucy Rout's pitch. The 28 year old became the first entrepreneur in 20 series to receive investment and a job offer from Peter Jones alongside investment backing from two other dragons. Lucy is the founder of Tabuu, a business that sells stylish pill cases with the aim of removing the stigma around taking medication. Lucy was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at the 25, and following reconstruction of her digestive system has to take medication every time she eats. She talks to Nuala about her illness and her experience in the Den.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. We're going to be taking a look at the culture of Westminster. There's a new report out. It makes for sobering reading for any woman considering a career in politics. We have Labour and Conservative politicians along with the Fawcett Society to talk us through the findings and hear what it tells us really about being a working woman MP today in Parliament and also what changes need to happen and really to have what the Fawcett Society are calling a house for everyone.

Also, following last week's conversation on people who are donor conceived, we heard from a listener, Hayley. Now she's going to tell you about her experience, not only as a donor conceived child, but also about becoming the parent of donor conceived children. So I'm looking forward to hearing her story. I'm so glad she got in touch with us. Also, I've been reading and listening to the letters of Edith Thompson. Now she was a woman who was executed for crimes of her lover. That's 100 years ago. But the letters that have been published led in part to her execution.

We're going to hear from Laura Thompson. No relation, I should say. And she says about her that she was a sort of so-called ordinary woman who wanted to be extraordinary. So we're going to hear that story. Also, here's one, particularly if you're somebody

who takes regular medication. If you're a Dragons Den fan, you may already know about Lucy Rout. She was a contestant who not only got three investors on board at Dragons Den, but also a job offer after pitching stylish pillboxes. Hadn't thought about that before. Maybe you hadn't. But she has a personal story about why it matters as she's trying to remove what she sees as the stigma of taking tablets in public. So she's on her way to us, too, here in the Woman's Hour studio. And what about this? This is something that caught the eye of the Woman's Hour team this morning. It's a poll of 2,000 British adults who found that almost half have ended a relationship due to an ick factor, right? So

that's something that puts you right off somebody, somebody who you previously found very attractive. I'm going to give you a few examples. Long fingernails, clapping when a plane lands, putting on a baby voice. Another few, wearing sunglasses indoors, chewing with your mouth open. Okay, I want to hear, has that happened to you? Have you experienced the ick factor? Have you ended a relationship over it? Let's share this morning on Woman's Hour. You can text the programme.

It is 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can also email us through our website if you'd like to whatsapp or send a voice note that number is 03700 100444 data charges may apply depending on your provider so you might want to use wi-fi if you can and those terms and conditions can be found on our website right so i'm going to keep an eye out for the ick factors. But I'm going to first turn to my guests, which are here in front of me in studio.

And it's all to do about a report that's out today. Mention it briefly there. By the charity, the Fawcett Society, they have found a toxic and exclusionary culture in Westminster,

which they say risks pushing out women MPs and having a damaging effect on our democracy. Now, they found 37% of women MPs agreed that the culture in Parliament is inclusive for them compared to a majority of men. They also explore the impact of online hate and the lack of flexibility when it comes to childcare.

So we're going to hear from Conservative MP Maria Miller. She is chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Women in Parliament. Also Labour MP Stella Creasy is here, who has campaigned for better maternity rights for MPs. But first, Jemima Olhavsky, the CEO of the Fawcett Society, joins us. So let's go through a little of what you found in the report. What's the one aspect you feel our listeners really need to know? Well, you know, women are underrepresented in our politics. There's still only 34% of MPs.

So we know we need to encourage more women to stand and get more women to be elected. But I suppose our question starting out was, what's it like when you get there? Are we actually enabling women to really take part and to fully participate? And as you say, this research suggests that actually that we're not. Lots of people look at Parliament and I think maybe it seems distant or inaccessible, but actually it turns out that most of the women there feel the same as well. And that is because of a set of systems and processes that don't work for most women, in particular for those with caring responsibilities, because of a culture where sexism is normalised,

and also because of a wider political debate, quite a hostile online environment, that means women are having to self-censor that many, seven in ten, say that they don't participate in some types of online discussion because of the online abuse that they face. And I think that's really worrying in a democracy. OK, let me give some of the figures to our listeners. 69% of women MPs and 49% of all MPs have witnessed sexist behaviour in Parliament over the past five years. 93% of women MPs said that online abuse or harassment has a negative impact on how they feel about being an MP. So, I mean, what can you do about it? Because we've heard these figures before. I don't

think they're a surprise, even though they're shocking in many ways. What mechanisms can you put in place to try and change that? There are so many steps that can be taken. And one of the things that comes across really clearly is how challenging it is to work in an environment where there's so little predictability, along with really antisocial working hours. So one of the things that we've talked about is could we have a division hour where parliamentarians do all the votes in one go instead of coming and going throughout the day, kind of being on call constantly. Can dates, sitting dates for parliament be published more in advance

so that people can make plans around that? Can they be aligned more with school holidays so that people can make plans around that? Can they be aligned more with school holidays so that people can kind of spend and make time to spend time with their families? But is there pushback against that? You get mixed responses to some of that stuff from parliamentarians. You know, one thing we have to be aware of is you have a system that works for a certain group of people, and those are the people who are more likely to be there. But as outsiders who are concerned about a representative and inclusive parliament, I think it's incumbent on us to identify the areas where we think there can be and there should be change, because it matters that

all women can access those roles. We want that power to be held by women who are really representative. Well, let's talk about changing hours, for example. That's a very concrete, tangible example. How would you go about that? Well, I think some of it's quite simple. It is a matter of just planning a little bit more in advance and publishing information more in advance so that people can be responsive to that. This idea of a division hour, so voting is in one go rather than kind of throughout the day, kind of as and when debates are happening, means that people don't have to be there all the time. We could also look at some of the flexibility options that were used during the pandemic. So online voting, again, it's there's a kind of about half of parliamentarians that we spoke to supported that about half were not supportive. And why would they not be in support of it? I think there's a sense, you know, we all

know that there are kind of strengths and weaknesses to working remotely. And there's a sense, you know, we all know that there are kind of strengths and weaknesses to working remotely. And there's a concern that you are losing some of those opportunities for interaction for the kind of conversations at the side of an event or as you're going into a vote. And I recognise that and I think it's important. But we also have to weigh up the importance of who gets to be in that conversation. If you can't get into Parliament and you can't be at the event having the conversation on the side because of your caring responsibilities, then you're definitely not having that opportunity to be heard. Is Parliament though any different to any other workplace? I'm just thinking of my listeners going, you know what, I have to put up with this. I think it's a really important point. And one of the arguments we make in the report is, you know, these are some of the most powerful women in the country. And if they are having a terrible time, then we have to look at what that means for women in the country more widely around working practices, around the availability of childcare. So the issues we're seeing here are really a kind of a microcosm of issues that women

are facing up and down the country. It's important that we deal with them in Parliament, because it's important it's representative, but also importantly, because when we get more women into Parliament, they address those issues that affect women's lives every day. So with the division hour, for example, Jemima, would you be bold enough to say a timeline that you think that could be implemented? I mean, from the conversations you've had? I don't think I could go so far as to say that I can work the kind of processes of Parliament and do a timeline for that. But it feels like it's manageable and it should be achievable. I'm sure Cella could speak to kind of what the processes and the timelines of that might be. I think the point is that we need a real focus and a concerted commitment to

change. We need a body that's responsible for and accountable to Parliament, to the public, for ensuring that Parliament is fit for purpose and is pushing these proposals through. Jemima, thanks so much. I did mention Maria Miller. I spoke to her a little earlier this morning. She's a Conservative MP. She was Minister for Women and Equalities from 2012 to 2014 and now Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group group on women in parliament and I began by asking her what stands in the way of change coming about? What stands in the way is the lack of an effective mechanism in parliament to really create that momentum for change. I mean our democracies are precious institutions we can't take them for granted and we have to protect them but at the

moment in the House of Commons it's very difficult to effect change to modernise Parliament. And that's what this report is calling for effectively to do the sorts of things that many workplaces would simply take for granted, like having working hours that are consistent with family life. So they are looking to the Forced Society. One of the aspects they mention is Parliament to investigate changes to sitting hours, online and proxy voting with options for the IPSA, so the Standards Authority,

to look at increased budget allocations for MP staffing, office running costs, childcare needs, so that they then could be able to do that job of their role in Westminster and their constituencies. Is that something you support, something you would be pushing the Prime Minister to lobby for?

Well, this has nothing to do with the Prime Minister. It's to do with Parliament. And one of the very important parts of our democracy is that Parliament is not controlled by the government. So Parliament and backbenchers need to take responsibility for this. We have to make sure that Parliament's better when we leave it than when we joined it. And at the moment, whilst there are important pieces of work going on to try and modernise the way we employ staff or the behaviour code or grievance procedures, some of the basics around the way we work in Parliament, which does so much

to put off women standing for Parliament and not being addressed. And the other really key issue is the way in which parliamentarians ourselves view Parliament. I think the most shocking part of this research is that two out of every three sitting female MP does not believe that Parliament is a place where they belong. If they don't belong there, then who does? And we have to make sure that we're affecting the sorts of changes that are essential to make sure that current MPs feel that they belong. And also, we can then encourage more women and indeed more people from black and ethnic minority backgrounds, more disabled people to stand for

Parliament but at the moment even people who are elected don't see it as somewhere they belong. Do you? I joined Parliament 17 years ago and it was the biggest shock to my working life. I'd been for almost 20 years in advertising and marketing. I was a director of an advertising agency, so not exactly a shy and retiring occupation. And I found it extremely challenging, a very masculine atmosphere and quite cutthroat as well. That has changed a little, but it needs to change more. And one of the ways it will change is by changing the way it operates on a daily basis, as well as addressing issues like culture. So you talk about your 17 years, but your party has been in power for 12 years. And some might say it's

responsible then for this culture. There have been instances of sexual misconduct within your party. I think we have to move beyond sexual misconduct as being the reason why Parliament at the moment is, some people might say, dysfunctional. But it's important. It's an important aspect to consider and also to try and combat. It absolutely is an essential part of changing the culture. But if you only focus on sexual misconduct,

then we will fail to get more women and more diversity in our parliament and therefore fail to make it a really effective organisation. And I'd say again, it's wrong to think that government determines how parliament is run. It doesn't. Backbenchers do, the Speaker does. It has to be separated from Parliament. And we have to also, I think, move beyond simply blaming political parties. Though, of course, my party, the Conservative Party, needs to do an awful lot better on getting more women elected. And that's very clearly an objective for them. But also to take a look at the party. And I know you say it's more than the Prime Minister, for example. But there is leading by example.

And there has to be a culture of accountability. There has to be a culture of what will not be accepted when it comes to aspects, whether it's sexual misconduct or other behavioural issues that you mentioned. Absolutely. And of course, the almost unique thing about Parliament is that we are all equal. We're all equally elected. So whether you're Prime Minister or the newest of new backbenchers, we're all treated exactly the same and we're all subject to the same rules and regulations. And so it is absolutely essential that everybody from the Father of the House to the Prime Minister and the Speaker, that we all lead by example. What I think this piece of research does is shows that we have to go even further

than we are going before in terms of behaviour and culture into the practices and also, I think, importantly, take seriously some of the really, really difficult circumstances members of Parliament are dealing with, with regards to the attitude towards parliamentarians, particularly in social media. That is doing more than almost anything else to drive women out of being an MP and making them stop thinking about standing. And there has been, of course, these terrible stories of people being trolled, the abuse and harassment that they have got online.

Is that something you've encountered? Yes, although I've just had a case that I'm very grateful to Hampshire Police and the local Crown Prosecution Service ended up in a criminal conviction. It wasn't online harassment. It was actually harassment through email correspondence to an extent that really concerned my staff one of those cases that the judge acknowledged that the sort of highly abusive and threatening correspondence that members can receive can really potentially put off good people standing for election and particularly women standing for election. You know, one of the aspects the Fawcett Society also mentioned was political parties to introduce quotas to increase women's representation and ensure women, especially disabled women and women from black and minoritised backgrounds, are being selected in winnable seats. Is that something you'd support?

When I chaired the Women and Equality Select Committee, that was one of the recommendations of our report on increasing the numbers of women in Parliament around five years ago now. And I think if parties are not able to do that themselves, then they must consider different ways, including quotas, to achieve that. Now, my party, the Conservative Party, as I've said before, has got a great deal of work to do, and they're doing it. But if they're not successful, I think they have to think about this. Maria Miller there, Conservative MP. I just want to read a statement from a government spokesperson saying the government is working with the House

of Commons to strengthen standards and accountability for MPs and to support female members. Progress has already been made in a number of areas, including expanding maternity and paternity leave. We will continue to work with the House to support all MPs and make sure everyone in Westminster is treated equally and with fairness and respect. I can see out of the corner of my eye that Labour MP Stella Creasy is shaking her head no as I read that. I'm laughing because we've known about these problems for decades now

and the challenge is this isn't like a normal workplace. For a start, we only recruit every four to five years. I know we've had elections more recently, but we only recruit every four to five years. For a second, we don't have employment contracts. So it is perfectly possible to discriminate against people who are not the norm, i.e. a white man of a certain age with independent means. What does that mean in practical terms? We have no formal policies on maternity cover. And I mean cover, not just someone to vote for you. The House now has a system where you have a proxy vote for six months. Actually, it's still down to the patronage of the whips if you actually get proper

maternity cover. So one of my colleagues got 50% more maternity cover than I did because of those informal processes. So my son was discriminated against because actually this isn't a normal workplace. That matters because the place that is making the laws that other workplaces should follow doesn't uphold them, doesn't act like they're important. And bear in mind, the only piece of work Parliament has done on this in the last year is to spend six months having a committee

to decide they don't want parents with babies anywhere near the chamber rather than having any maternity cover. Is it little wonder that we look like dinosaurs right now? Well, some people might remember you and your baby indeed in the House of Commons. Just for some of the listeners that may not be familiar with your background, that you have campaigned for maternity rights and in 2019 became the first MP to be given maternity leave cover. But you have... No, I wasn't. I wasn't. Let's be really clear about this. I've never been given maternity leave cover. But you have talked about... No, I wasn't. I wasn't. Let's be really clear about this.

I've never been given appropriate maternity cover. Appropriate, but there was some. No, no, there wasn't. This is the point. And I also want to be really clear. One of the challenges I found in talking about this is like a lot of women in any other industry, it's like ground zero for the rest of your career. So suddenly people think that's all you talk about.

But I really wanted maternity cover to make sure that I could take time out to look after my children and make sure my constituents are being represented as well. What Parliament failed to put in place was anything like that. So we make do and mend in Walthamstow and that's what we do. So you might have seen some of that patchiness. But actually, I look at my colleague, Theo Clark, who's a member of the Conservatives, who's just recently talked about the abuse she faced in trying to have some kind of maternity leave with a baby. And I look at the promises that were made by Parliament indeed before 2019 and subsequently since that they would look at this issue and they haven't. But what they have done, unlike other jurisdictions, so we've all

seen the Americans with their children, men holding them as well. We've seen them in New Zealand, in Australia, in the European Parliament with their children, recognising that a job that makes you work at 10 o'clock at night is probably not a normal job so we need to do something to make it possible to have a family. We are going backwards in the United Kingdom and we have to change that because we only get to recruit people every couple of years. But let's talk about this very specifically so my listeners are clear.

When I say you were given maternity cover this was to cover your constituency work but you couldn't vote in the House of Commons. Instead, how do you say it? Appropriate cover is somebody who can actually cover for you. That's why 24 hours after I'd given birth, I was on the phone to the ministers because I had constituents affected by what was happening in Afghanistan. Appropriate cover, which is a legal requirement, indeed not working immediately after you've given birth is illegal. But because we don't have a contract,

that's what happened, is somebody who can actually swap in for you. And of course, because we don't have this system, my staff weren't allowed into those meetings. People want to see their MP. That's an important part of the representative process. The point about all of this is it's not rocket science. Other countries, other institutions have policies. Parliament doesn't. And yet we are telling employers that they should have this. So I talk to amazing groups like Pregnant and Screwed about maternity discrimination. And we have a contract and legal requirements that Parliament itself doesn't uphold. And frankly, having made promises they would look at this has done nothing about it since.

So I understand you do not understand it as appropriate maternity leave cover. But if it changed and if there were someone who was able to take over for you in all those aspects, voting in the House of Commons or covering the constituency work, be it from people affected in Afghanistan or wherever they might be, people might raise the question, is that democratic? Then do you not want to vote women into politics? Because women are going to have babies at some point if they choose to do so. And we do make laws. We have maternity cover laws in this country for that reason, so that we don't discriminate against women. Because exactly the question you're asking is the fear that many of us have had, that if we start challenging that norm and saying,

hang on, why is it that we haven't got women in parliament? People say, well, hang on, should you really be there? That is a perennial culture problem in this country, isn't it? That we think motherhood should be a struggle and we discriminate against women. If you want to tackle some of the issues in this, and it's not just about motherhood, although the evidence is very clear that women don't go into politics until later in life, or there are very few of us who've tried to combine it with having children. And indeed, one of my colleagues suggested to me, well, the point about being an MP is you probably just

wouldn't have a very close relationship with your kids, which just seemed bonkers to me, then we have to change it. And the reason many of us are fighting for it is not because for our self interest, it's because we see the impact it has. I've been part of fundraising to support women for selection, because ultimately, this starts with selecting women. And the same barriers are there as well, people asking that question, well, hang on a minute, how your kids and your family going to combine this questions they never ask men when they're standing which I know there was a listener that got in touch they said I'm all flexible working but where's the conversation around men taking on more of the caring role leaving women free to be at work we cannot do it all that's Scarlet Fox and if you want if you want a symbol of hope

go and look at the twitter feed of Republican Jimmy Gomez, who's been part of the debates in the House of Representatives in America with his baby strapped to him. And it's seen as completely normal in America. The problem they have is the bad behaviour in the chamber. Ironic. It's been a week for it. We're not going to get into that. And Tammy Duckworth is another woman who often comes to mind, who is, I think, a real role model for a lot of people when it comes to combining being a mum and also being a politician. I have to ask you, though, because I asked Maria

Miller as well, about the role her party plays in having created this culture. We know Labour also has instances of sexual misconduct. Does your own party have questions to answer about how it has contributed to this culture? Absolutely. Everybody does. And I think it's disrespectful to suggest otherwise the question is who is acting and I actually pay tribute to the work that is being done within the labour movement to challenge our process and bringing an independent process I also pay tribute to organisations like the Labour Women's Network who've done a lot of work on this we have a long way to go the point is we don't have many options for change because of that time scale of recruitment. And actually, whether it's maternity cover or having sensible hours or having

clear policies about independent grievance processes, the solutions are out there. It's the political will that needs to happen. But how do you change that then? I mean, you've been taught, I mentioned 2019, what are we in 2023 now? I mean, are you breaking through? Well, so as I say, some of us have decided to do something about it externally. So we've been funding Mums Stand for Parliament. They are people that are on board already, shall I say. You're preaching to the converted. What about those that... Sorry, we're actually preaching to the system, which is we're going to make it be a positive thing

that all the voices that you're missing out here, because surprise, surprise, when you support parents to come forward, you also get a much more diverse group of women coming forward because it's not just women who are missing from parliament it's diversity oh and i don't mean the people you're bringing in forgive me if i was um unclear but that's that's one of my central points here it's not going to change from within it's been made very clear so you've kind of written off parliament needs that external challenge and change which is why the report by the force of society is really important but also why all of us have to do some reflecting, me included, about what more we can do to break this open. Because my experience in 13 years is it isn't going to change anytime soon

unless those new voices come in. And we have to look at the practical barriers. We can talk about cultures, social media, absolutely. The trolling is off the scale. I do not know. I mean, Diane Abbott takes a huge amount of abuse. But the fundamental policies and procedures that make this a workplace where you can combine having a family, where you know what you're doing, where frankly, it's not patronage, but policy defines what you can do. All of us have a role to play in making that change. Briefly, last question. Will you work with Maria Miller? tried to work across the party because actually I think people who are tribal about this those women in leadership positions who wouldn't support our call for maternity cover whether in the Labour movement or in the Conservative movement because they saw that as somehow tribal have damaged all of us we need to change this also I want to see the men step up and rather than just tweeting photos of themselves taking their babies through the chamber actually working with us because oddly enough two people are involved in making a baby it's not childcare shouldn't be be a lifestyle choice that you wear because you think it's popular the voters it

should be the right thing to do for everyone. Stella Creasy thank you so much also Jemima Olhavsky the CEO of Fawcett Society who you heard earlier and you also heard from Conservative MP Maria Miller. Thanks to all of you we'll continue to talk and let's see if any progress is made in the coming weeks you're listening to Woman's Hour I had to ask you about the ick factor

so many of you have got in touch let me see I recently broke up with someone after a build up of icks he showed me a video of him and his friends

dancing a choreographed dance to a high school musical ick the first time I made dinner at home for my then boyfriend he finished his food and then went on

to lick his plate completely clean. Glad he enjoyed my cooking, but that was the end of that. Thanks, Julia, for that one. My husband stuffs his mouth with cereal and other foods until he looks like a hamster. He won't stop. He thinks it's funny. It's really disgusting. But they're still married by

Stella and by Jemima as they make their way out of the Woman's Hour studio. Oh, I should just do one more thing, actually, which is the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, their statement. They welcome the important research,

going back to the Fawcett Society, conducted by the Fawcett Society and agrees that there is more to do to ensure that being an MP is a viable option for people from all walks of life. For our part, we've increased MPs' budgets

for the last three years to enable them to employ more staff to better serve their constituents and introduced a health development and wellbeing budget to provide additional support to both MPs and their staff. We've supported revisions in place for MPs who need an extended absence from work and recently conducted our own

research and engagement to explore how this could be strengthened. Thanks very much to my guests but I want to move on. We're talking about parenthood and kids. We're kind of going to go into that now as well, because last week, if you were with me on the programme,

we had a discussion about donor-conceived children. As of this year, children in the UK conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation will be able to request information that identifies their donor when they turn 18.

This includes the donor's name, birth name, date of birth, address, as long as the information is on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authorities Register. It's as a result of a law that was made back in 2005, but it only comes into force now. So we had this really great chat about what that could mean for parents and children alike. And so many of you got in touch with your own experiences. Thanks for that. And one who contacted us was Hayley Darknell King.

Now, she is a donor conceived person after her parents used an anonymous sperm donor. She's also now the parent of donor conceived twins after she and her wife used a sperm donor to have children. And she uses her experience

to be an advocate and educator as well. I'm delighted to say Hayley is with us to share her story. You're so welcome. Perhaps you could bring our listeners back to when you found out you were donor conceived. Hi, good morning, everyone listening. So yeah, I found out actually only eight years ago. So I always knew that I was fondly called a test tube baby growing up. It was like a celebrated story. My parents had a long journey to become parents, had several years of infertility and were fortunate enough to have some very early rounds of IVF treatment at the first clinic that was doing IVF at the time, Bourne Hall in Cambridgeshire, with Patrick Steptoe and Robert Edwards. So like I say, I came along in the early 80s. But like I say, I knew about being an IVF baby,

but I didn't find out until a lot later in life that obviously, as you correctly said there, that as part of that very early treatment, they used an anonymous sperm donor. Because we were talking about this last week and I'm just wondering how that was for you to find out so late? It was a huge shock. I had never, you know, it came completely out of the blue in the sense that, you know, I wasn't expecting information um and obviously at this point I was in my early 30s um and I think you sort of grow up don't you with certain narratives about you know all the stories you have when you're children about you get certain things from your mum or your dad or

great auntie may or whoever it may be it's the kind of conversations you have and I think to have that information so late in life I really felt like the rug had been pulled. Not to say that, I mean, I always say it changed, you know, in that moment, everything changed, but nothing changed in the sense that my dad was still my dad. I've had the most wonderful upbringing with both my parents, very loving, supportive family. But actually, that information, which was so pertinent to my identity, it changed a lot of things for me at that moment in time. You know, I was reading about your story and it's a fascinating one. You did embark on a journey to find who was the donor. Tell us about that. Yes. So it was about when our own children were about two years old.

And as you've mentioned,'re also going to conceive I started to get very curious about my own genetic heritage and the fact that my wife and I were having really serious conversations about you know how are we going to talk to our own children about being donor conceived you know maybe looking back at some of the things that went on in the past and maybe how we can do things a little bit better and I think it prompted I think and having your own kids in life anyway regardless of how they come into the world you it does change your perspective on a lot of things having children um so I decided to send my um DNA off um to ancestry.com uh because I was born in an era even before like the laws have changed in 2005, donation open or open ID. But I'm one of the real oldies and I was born pre-1991 before the HFEA even came into effect.

You know, they weren't even in the regulatory body, wasn't even in existence. So there was literally no information on who the donor was. And my parents were given very, very minimal information back, you know, when they were having treatment nearly, you know, 30 odd years ago. So my only option was to DNA test with the big commercial sites at that time. And yeah, I sent off my DNA, had an eight week nervous wait, because I wasn't sure what would come up, you know, potentially opening Pandora's box, you just don't know what you're going to find on these sites. And the way the sites work is they match your dna with anybody else that is listed on the database um and i was very fortunate cut a very very long story short um i was able to um

so you don't need to match necessarily with the donor directly to find out who they are so your dna like i say gets compared to so anybody on my paternal line i was then matched and i was able uh my wife was amazing as well at helping me go through all my results we spent many weeks when the twins were asleep at night going through family tree work genealogy census records all sort of publicly available records and we were able to narrow down my genetic father to two brothers and like I say I was able to reach out to one of them and his name's Jonathan and yeah we like I say he got back to me and confirmed that he was in fact the donor. And he was up for meeting you and you have met, which I know will not be the experience for many people that might even want it to happen like that.

What was it like meeting him? Yes, it was it was quite crazy, actually. I mean, I the first time I saw him, I actually it's like was like looking at a familiar stranger. We do look very alike. I always used to think I look quite like my mum and I do. But I actually when I saw a photograph of Jonathan and then met him, we are very alike physically. But like I say, it was it was more just originally I just wanted to find him for to have a photograph have some information and really importantly I was getting to the age where medical history was quite important um so I didn't have any medical history at that point so I was very fortunate that Jonathan was

very welcoming and was able to provide me with all of that information um and has continued um you know we've stayed in contact in it and it And he's been a great addition to my life. But I always want to make it clear that he's never going to be a replacement for my dad. I've never set out to look for any of my genetic family, if you like, as a replacement for, you know, my raised family, if you like. But, yeah, he's just been a nice addition to my life to actually have that information. Well, let's talk about other additions to your life. You've already spoken very briefly there about your twins, but you were the parent of donor conceived twins. How did you and your wife go

about making the decision to take that route? And it was after I imagine you had found out you were donor conceived yourself. Yeah. So I, so I'm married to a woman. So in order for us to have had a child, one of the options would have been donor conception. And yeah, we decided to go down the route of using a sperm donor. And like I say, we welcomed them into the world in 2017. And I think, to be honest, at that stage, because I hadn't met Jonathan,

I hadn't really gone into the whole, I call it the rabbit hole of donor conception if you like um one of the main things I think for my wife and I at that stage when we were in our trying to conceive stage was that our children had the identifying information of the donor that we were going to use so um that was very very important to us and that's obviously what we ended up doing. But I think it was only after the twins were born that I DNA tested myself and actually met Jonathan. And it really opened my eyes up to maybe how my children may feel in the future. And that's kind of what prompted me to start talking a little bit more about my story and some things that I've learned about the fertility industry and things like that that I think could be vastly improved you know things about information for parents that are on this journey that they should maybe be thinking of before they embark on it and just things like

that really. And I was looking at your following on Instagram you share your story as well as tips and I wonder with those experiences that you've shared with us if there are parents listening who haven't told their donor-conceived children yet of their genetic origin, what would your advice be to them? My advice would be to definitely seek some help and some information. You had Nina on from the Donor Conception Network last week.

They're a fantastic charity that have supported many hundreds of parents, I think, over the years, and especially those that are maybe telling their children, or maybe even adult, you know, their adult children. So definitely seek some information and support on that. Because a lot of these parents, you know, certainly if there's any listening, if they're like mine, they were told by the doctors not to tell their children. I don't think it was anything, it was never like a deliberate thing, you know, wanting to necessarily keep a secret.

That's just what they were told to do. That was the advice back, you know, even sort of 15 years ago, in some instances, 20 years ago. So I would definitely say seek support and just be mindful that DNA testing is out there. And, you know, it's been, it's really grown rapidly in the last couple of years. And these kits are so cheap, people are getting them for Christmas and things like that as gifts. And it may be that your child may find out by accident in a DNA test, which, you know, it can be an awful experience.

So I would always say that even though it will be a difficult thing to tell your children later on in life, it's far better to come in a loving, supportive manner than, you know, finding out by accident or in a DNA test. Hayley Darknell-King, thanks so much for joining us on A Woman's Hour. Really fascinating to hear your story and thanks so much for getting in touch. No, you're welcome. Thank you. And on Woman's Hour, we've been on a variety of topics. We've also been asking about the ick factory. Have you ever finished a relationship

just because of something they did? Lots of you getting in touch. There's a great song, says Martin, by the young Welsh female punk band Panic Shack. It's called The Ick and it says it all. This is the chorus.

You made me a cuppa. You put the milk in first. Right. Let us turn to my next guest who has come to join us in studio. Laura Thompson, you made me a cuppa, you put the milk in first. Right, let us turn to my next guest who has come to join us in studio. Laura Thompson, you're very welcome. Hello, thank you for having me. And we're having you because 100 years ago this week, 28-year-old Edith Thompson and her 20-year-old lover, that's Frederick Bywaters, were hanged for the murder of her husband Percy. Even though there was no evidence that Edith was involved with that killing,

what condemned Edith were the letters she had written to Freddie and which were interpreted by the law as incitement to murder. Well, Laura, I mentioned your last name. Thompson has brought the letters together in a book, Au Revoir, now Darlingt. Kind of Darlingt.

It's like darling, but with a little, what would I say, a little accent at the end. She joins me live in the studio, as I mentioned. So you share a surname with this woman, but you're not related. No, no, but maybe that's what kind of piqued my interest in the first place. I don't know, but no, in any way it would be her husband's family. I would be related to Percy, the poor murder victim, in fact. Now, tell us a little bit about Edith.

She was a fascinating woman, kind of ahead of her time. She was. She was. And that didn't help her at the Old Bailey. She was, yeah, she was marvellous, really. And you know what's so poignant about these letters is this extraordinary vitality that comes through the way her voice is still so alive to us. turned 29 when she was executed. Ordinary, very ordinary in many ways, as we would say, born into what they used to call the kind of respectable lower middle classes, you know, born in what's now Newham Manor Park. But she was one of those people who just wanted more from life. She was bright spirited, intelligent girl, left school at 15,

but rose very quickly. She became a manager in a milliner's warehouse in the city of London. And she was a very capable businesswoman, but she's a mass of contradictions because she's also got this powerful creative imagination, which is what comes out in these letters. She had an affair with the 20-year-old Freddie Bywaters that we mentioned.

Percy was her husband. The relationship apparently spanned 15 months. But a lot of times Freddie was away at sea. She kept her letters, but it doesn't seem like of their relationship and talking about their relationship, she didn't really expect anybody else to read them, though, did she? No. I mean, she thought he was destroying them.

I mean, I keep, you know, she's so under my skin, Nuala. Why? Why has she captured your imagination in this way? Yeah, it's a really good question. I suppose because of the she's kind of every woman in some ways, you know, when you read these letters, there's this beautiful sort of almost banality about them. There's this impressionistic record of the life of a woman whose letters wouldn't normally be preserved, you know, who just goes to work, comes home, cooks the dinner, writes about her period paints, writes about,

oh, I've just bought a new skirt, you won't like it, darling, you know, all this kind of thing. Darling, that's it, exactly, darling. Well, it's darling-est. Yes, and shortened. And it, again, didn't go down well at the Old Bailey. I mean, it's so extraordinary to us, the effect that these letters had a century ago

that they were regarded, that her own sister said, I just couldn't believe she'd written these things. I'm going to play an excerpt in just a moment, but just to give our listeners the background. So she was having an affair with Freddie. She was married to Percy, but Percy was murdered by Freddie.

Yeah. So, yes. So the bare facts of it. The affair began in June 1921. Freddie was sort of going out with Edith's sister until he succumbed to the fatal allure of Edith. He was eight and a half years younger. Again, that didn't play well. And they had this, they hardly ever saw each other, actually. The fact that he was away at sea was almost the most important thing. It meant she could express herself through the letters rather than, you know, face to face. And then for reasons that are quite mysterious, really, on the 3rd of October, Edith and Percy were walking home from the theatre

to their home in Ilford, and Freddie had an altercation with Percy, which ended up with three fatal stabs to his body. And there was no evidence against Edith that I can identify, none whatsoever, until they found the letters. And when they found the letters letters there were phrases within the letters that the forces of law decided to interpret as guilt. Okay I want to bring that to my listeners and see what they think. These are some experts

that are read by the actor Genevieve Gaunt. Darling, you must do something this time. I'm not really impatient, but opportunities come and go by. They have to because I'm helpless. Don't keep this peace. He was telling his mother, etc., the circumstances of my Sunday morning escapade, and he puts great stress on the fact of the tea tasting bitter, as if something had been put in it he says. I was buoyed up with the hope of the light bulb and I used a lot. Big pieces too, not powdered and it has no effect. Ever since I've been back in Ilford I've had most awful nights

rest. I haven't been able to sleep for more than an hour together and even when I do that I dream. Sometimes they're not very nice dreams. He has the right by law to all that you have the right to by nature and love. Yes, darling, be jealous. So much that you will do something desperate. So there's some of the examples of the letters that condemned her. And, you know, if people were following along, they're basically putting shards of light bulbs in her husband's food, asking Freddie to source herbs. She does send him newspaper cuttings of stories about poisonings. Why are you so convinced that she was innocent? Well, that's the really interesting question, because this case, which in some ways is very straightforward, two lovers, unwanted spouse, you know, in the era before divorce on demand.

But it's got this literary dimension, if you like, that the letters are the case, really, the case against this woman. So what it comes down to is a question of interpretation. And at the Old Bailey, they had undoubtedly a preordained narrative. Older woman, cougar, her hand guided the knife, even though he held it, you know, a familiar story, if you like, even today. But the fact is that hanging someone on the grounds of interpretation of their words. I'm sorry, to me, it's the handmaid's tale. But you can't say she was guilty of making him do it. At the same time, she's guilty of something, because if she hadn't written those things, he wouldn't have done it. So it's a

question. So you get the whole question of guilt, almost the Lady Macbeth, you know, and what I hope is that people will read the letters and look at the longer clips of Genevieve Gaunt on YouTube, in fact, you can see, and make up their own minds because it's all about interpretation. Well, what about the media interest at the time, the crowds queuing up outside the court? And why do you think they were much more sympathetic towards Freddie than they were towards either, even the women's organisations at the time? Oh, yeah. Oh, Rebecca West called Edith a shocking piece of rubbish.

Not very sisterly. Because she was the believer in free love and this pagan sensuality that she shows in the letters. But she did it on instinct, not on principle, if you like. And people, she wasn't pathetic. She wasn't pitiable. She was aspirational. So she wasn't an underdog. So people just didn't. They reacted very strongly to her. And if you read the home office memos, you know, the kind of confidential stuff, the determination to hang this woman was really quite, she became, you know how sometimes people do when they become a scapegoat for societal... She was a symbol of moral degeneracy and even the Times said her absence cannot be regretted. The Defence Council said she was hanged for adultery. What's your view on that?

Well, I think that's the starting point. You know, if she hadn't done that, and even more to the point, if she hadn't written these letters that glory in love rather than marriage, she wouldn't have been deemed potentially guilty of murder as well. You know, the starting point was she was a bad woman. And from that point, everything else proceeded. And I think, okay, she was cancelled. She was cancelled for word crimes. A hundred years ago. Yeah. And then cancellation was total. But I think the resonance with today that people decide to interpret what you've written and don't give you any defence of saying,

no, I didn't actually mean that. I didn't quite mean that. You know, that I think we can all really relate to. Laura Thompson, lovely to hear your thoughts on this. And I have to say, I loved reading it and also listening to them being read out and bringing us back to that time.

And of course, the story of Edith Thompson. Thank you so much. Well, sitting beside Laura, who's just come in to join us, is Lucy Brout. Hi, Lucy. Hi. Good to have you with us.

I did see you on Instagram when you were on your way to the Women's Hour studio already and people might know your name already because Dragon's Den returned to our TV screens and your pitch was very impressive. The dragons were very impressed with it.

You're 28 years old and have become the first entrepreneur in 20 series. 20, wow. To invest, to receive investment and also a job offer from Peter Jones that's alongside investment backing from two other dragons. You are the founder of Taboo.

This is a business that sells stylish pill cases with the aim of removing the stigma around taking medication. I understand you were diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at 25 and following the reconstruction of your digestive system you have to take medication every day every time after you eat. So that's kind of a brief history of it but talk me through a little bit more of your decision to set up this business. Yeah absolutely absolutely. So I, as I say, you know, I had pancreatic cancer,

reconstruction of my digestive system at age 25 and was handed, you know, a pill case full of tablets and told, I said to the doctor, okay, how long am I going to be taking those for? And they said, oh, that's forever. And I sort of thought, okay, okay, that's obviously, you know,

it's a time I think any of us in the cancer community can relate to that you're already feeling perhaps, you know, quite disconnected with your body. It's obviously a bit of a bit of a strange time. So I sort of thought, OK. And I searched the market everywhere for something that I could carry them in that would feel a bit, you know, a bit sort of stylish, a bit tactile and nice in hand. And I was really disappointed that in 2021, a time where you can buy anything on the Internet, you know, you can buy sandals for your dog if you want sandals for your dog on the internet. There was next to nothing available for people like me to keep our tablets in, you know, people like me, young people living with disability and chronic illness that just want to kind of go about their day with something

that at the very least feels a bit nice. So yeah, that's sort of why I set up the business and we're on a mission, as I say, to open up the conversation around medication, drive awareness around medication and get people talking about, you know, this perfectly normal topic. Be it someone's taking medication to support their mental health or their physical health. The more we talk about it and the more we open up these conversations, the more people come together and, feel a bit more normal about it. So I'm thinking with you, particularly if it's every time after you eat, you're a young person, I'm sure you're out and about. Did you encounter, I don't know, questions about why you're taking tablets or any sort of stigma? Yeah, absolutely. So I've had, to be really honest, quite a few comments. And from speaking to different people in different communities taking different medication,

it's unfortunately something lots of us have faced. I also have, you know, a large abdominal scar as part of my disability. And again, it's something that I've had comments on when it's on the show, when it's kind of been displayed, which is why I made such a poignant point over my Dragon's Den appearance. Having my scar out, I wanted to show the world

that, you know, these things are okay. These things are beautiful. It doesn't make us any less so. And so, yeah, as I say, I've had a few, you know, these things are OK. These things are beautiful. It doesn't make us any less so. And so, yeah, as I say, I've had a few, you know, uncomfortable comments. Lots of people have come forward to thank me for the work

that we're doing and talking about medication and, you know, really feeling a lot more, yeah, a lot more like the conversations are opening up. And yeah. So, OK, talk us through

what was it like going on Dragon's Den? You obviously had a very clear idea of what you were pitching, which was stylish pillboxes. They look, we should probably explain to our listeners, they look almost, ah, there you go. I would call it almost looks like a lipstick, maybe like in a pastel colour. Would that be fair? Yeah, absolutely. So the aim of the product was to kind of design something that offers discretion on days that you don't wish to open up. You know, the sort of other cases are out there that are huge and very sort of medical

in design they're not perhaps the most discreet but also also offer something stacked stylish and tactile and beautiful in hand in terms of dragon's den itself my goodness me so i've focused through your walking through oh my goodness i've spoken quite publicly about this i nearly pulled out of the filming um about 150 times my poor mum was on the receiving end of those phone calls through fear. You know, I was really worried about other people's opinions. I felt like a complete imposter in there. And to be honest, on this call after listening to the amazing Laura, I feel like a complete imposter being here. I think you're supposed to be here. It's something that so many of us struggle with. And the experience was amazing, but I was super, super nervous.

And I remember finishing my pitch and looking up. And to be honest, I was mentally prepared to be torn apart. And Stephen Bartlett looked me in the eye and he said that was phenomenal. And to be really honest, that was the moment for me. And I know I'm a big believer that confidence needs to come from within. But I pushed my shoulders back. I put my chin up and I thought, I'm going to do this. And I'm not going to be perfect.

And there's going to be things I don't know, but I'm going to do this on behalf of every single person that's ever felt like they're not good enough to try. And I never in my wildest dreams would have believed that I would have left with the outcome that I did. And I nearly didn't go ahead with it. But I guess, you know, my key message here is just 2023, please, each and every one of us, let's stop letting the fear of failure or fear of other people's opinions hold us back because life is short. And you never know what your outcome might be. So when you, you know, they all went for it. I was watching it as well. You know, they're really excited in your idea. You can see that you've won them over and

you're on the way to something great. What did it feel like when you left that arena and went back through the doors? I think I stood in front of the BBC like this for about five minutes while they were asking me for comments and things. I was completely shell-shocked. I got, to be honest, super emotional. I was completely overwhelmed. And that's when I looked at the camera and I said, if you're sat at home and you're too scared to do something, please go and do it and just try. And I thought to myself going into the den, if all I do is come in here,

I get five, you know, a bit of time with five amazing entrepreneurs who can give me feedback at such an early stage, I would have left and I'm winning. I never, ever expected the outcome I got. It was so overwhelming. And, you know, I text my mum a hundred times afterwards saying I can't believe it's happened and I've had so many people now thousands of

messages come forward and say do you know what I've always been too scared to write my book because I felt like an imposter I've always been too scared to not go for an audition to feel like an imposter and the more you have these conversations and talk to other people you realize that we're not alone all of us feel like imposters. And it needs to be 2023, just needs to be the year that for goodness sake, we stop because it's a waste of time. I love it. So coming out of that with the 50k of investment, also a job. Are you working for Peter Jones now alongside running your company? Yeah, so I was incredibly lucky. As I say, it's not something that's really... Peter Jones, yeah, I work alongside him for scaling my business,

but also supporting different incredible businesses across his investment portfolio. It's needless to say, a once in a lifetime opportunity and one that I was very shell-shocked, humbled and privileged to have been given, really. And how is it now, I suppose, having the investment and being able to push forward with what other ideas you have? Because I'm sure at one point you don't, if you have imposter syndrome or if you're kind of holding yourself back in some ways, you don't perhaps dream as big as you can now.

A hundred percent. And I think it's a really nice, a really nice point. I think it's amazing to have had the opportunity to speak with those investors and to get such, as I say, early stage feedback. The platform of Dragon's Den has, to be honest, gone beyond my wildest dreams. I've been receiving messages from people all around the country and all over the world, sorry. In terms of the opportunity itself that Dragon's Den is bringing, to be honest, I think the biggest thing it gave me is confidence And we're going to leave it

on that point It's so good to have you in Lucy Rout and you might know her from Dragon's Den now you also know her from Woman's Hour so good to have you in

our studio That's ending today's programme but I will be back again tomorrow I'll be introducing you to Loeb Who is she? She's a female character created by a Swedish artist using AI.

In all the images, she looks sad and is accompanied by gore and violence. It is fascinating, but it is a little bit creepy too. So I'm going to be talking to the artist, that's Steph Swanson, and to two experts in the field, Tabitha Goldstub from the UK's

Artificial Intelligence Council and Mari Eichen from the Alan Turing Institute. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Another thunderstorm. Lights out. Sometimes I just can't hear difference between thunder or

shelling or explosions. Documentary adventures that invite a closer listen. We were willing to put not only our bodies on the line, but our whole being. A documentary podcast from BBC Radio 4. So do you mind... Testing?

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I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.