Woman's Hour - The Lost Children of Tuam, Ashley James on incontinence

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Monica Dolan is starring in a new film, called The Lost Children of Tuam, co-produced by Liam Neeson. In it, she plays the extraordinary amateur historian, Catherine Corless, whose relentless pursuit of the truth helped to bring the story of hundreds of babies from a mother and baby home being disposed of in a disused sewage tank to the world in 2014. She joins Irish journalist Alison O’Reilly to discuss this powerful tale of community activism and how it led to an ongoing mass exhumation.Broadcaster Ashley James has gone public about the lasting effects of birth complications – including incontinence – and why she believes we need to speak more openly about it. To discuss, Ashley joins Nuala McGovern alongside NHS GP Dr Ellie Cannon, who specialises in women’s health.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service,

Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com. An observatory in space. This is the real deal. This is going to revolutionize astronomy. Capable of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess,

and for the whole world to see what Hubble really can do. From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes, Trouble with Hubble. the story of the Hubble Space Telescape. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, this is Newell McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme this morning.

Lessons in Chemistry? Well, the Conservative leader, Kemmy Badenock has laid out her guiding principle at her party's conference. we're going to hear about a new conservative policy on free childcare that would stop the so-called cliff edge for people earning more than £100,000. Also today, the Lost Children of Chum is a new film about the scandal surrounding a mother and baby home in County Galway in Ireland.

You may remember, we broadcast a special programme about the hundreds of babies and young children who died in the care of the nuns who ran the home there. The actor Monica Dolan plays Catherine Corliss, an extraordinary woman who has been fighting for justice. Monica will be here alongside Alison O'Reilly, a journalist who helped Catherine get the story out to the world. Also, the broadcaster Ashley James has opened up

about the shame and stigma surrounding incontinence which she has suffered from since having a traumatic birth. Ashley will be with me in studio with Dr. Ellie Cannon as we hear what women can learn from Ashley's experience. Plus, I learned a new word today. Spurtle, a traditional Scottish wooden stirring to. dating from the 15th century. Now, Gina Sarbar has just won the golden spurtle.

It is the top prize in the world porridge-making championships which were held in the Highlands. You're going to hear from Gina this hour and also what her special ingredient was. But maybe you consider yourself a champion porridge maker as this weather finally cools down. What is your secret? Is it a particular topping or method?

Do share all on this Monday morning. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444. And also, on most smart speakers,

you can say, Alexa, ask BBC Sounds to send a comment. But let us turn to that chemistry with a K. It is what Kmi Badernock, the Conservative Party leader, is calling her personal brand of conservatism. Almost two years into her tenureship, she has set out her core principles in a 95-page essay. And at their conference in Birmingham yesterday,

Badenock also pledged to scrap the £100,000 earning limit for parents to claim 30 hours a week of free childcare if her party is elected. Joining me now from the conference to discuss is Kitty Donaldson, chief political commentator at the eye paper. Great to have you back with us, Kitty. Let us talk about the chemistry. How do you explain it?

What is it? Yes, it's a pun on her name, effectively, but she's trying to use it to explain her vision. And she's done this new pamphlet. It's quite long. It's called The Right Way. And that's a deliberate echo of Margaret Thatcher's essay in 1976, which was called The Right Approach,

and basically set out her vision for government, her vision for Thatcherism. And there's a very kind of 80s vibe to this conference. It's all about cutting taxes and deregulation. We'll hear a bit of that from Andrew Griffith, the Shadow Chancellor later. in direct contrast probably to last week's conference from Labour at Liverpool, which was had a kind of 1970s Harold Wilson vibe.

So it does feel like we've gone back to the future in the north of England. But in the pamphlet, she's basically setting out her kind of vision. And excuse me, I don't think your listeners would be at all surprised by what's in it. It's kind of basic sort of Tory Thatcherism. It's cutting regulation, welfare as a safety net, not as a lifestyle, choice, all the things you expect to hear from the Conservatives. But her argument is, I think, that the time to do the thinking about what you would do in government is when you're in opposition, because the minute you get into government,

if she were elected, then you're buffeted, basically, by people like Donald Trump or a war here or, you know, the straits of poor moot's there, whatever happens. So they're doing the thinking now. Yeah, interesting that you need to know kind of what your response to a crisis would be before a crisis appears. And we'll come a little bit back to that as well. But I do want to get into the aspect on childcare that I was mentioning there. What has she said about changes she's proposing for the party?

So her starting principle, I think, is two things. One is if you've paid in, then you should get out. And that applies to her view on the triple lock for pensioners, the pension's uprating. that applies to universal credit as well that if you paid in you should get out. And so on childcare, basically she's saying they're going to end the cliff edge

so that at the moment if that earns 100,000 pounds, never mind what the other partner earns, you don't get to claim it. And I think this is going to cost about 700 million pounds overall. Worth noting, of course, it was actually the Tories under the last government

who ended this proposal. And of course, all these sort of policies do slightly depend on what the public finances look like by the time in the next election. So what we're seeing at the moment is quite a lot of signaling, I think. And she's trying to make herself a bit of space in a crowded political field. Appeal to the sort of people who got fed up with the Tories, booted them out at the last general election, who, by the way, are dissatisfied with what Kistama got up to and don't see alternatives in reform or the liberal Democrats. It's interesting, though, that word signaling, because this is,

high earners that it would affect. I mean, how many people are likely to be affected by a change like this, were it to come in? Oh, hardly any. And she admits that. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you're absolutely right. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, the party for you and we're back.

Basically, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, you know, 700 million is quite an expensive policy to achieve, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, arguably not very much, but also she says they said last year they'd scrap stamp duty on housing, which would disproportionately affect the South and the Southeast. And I think you're right. This is all about kind of which demographic you're going after. I think she is appealing to kind of young professional couples who've just had children are a bit fed up that they're being penalized for working. Or in some cases, people turn down pay rises or promotions because they don't want the the cliff hedge to hit their tax credits.

I mean, can it be seen, though, as a genuine attempt to fix a problem in the childcare system, which we know has so much criticism from whichever demographic you speak to? Yes. I mean, you can take it that way, obviously, but equally if you see what Labor, for instance, have said in response. I mean, there are other places you could spend £700 million, right? you could put it towards Shaw's Star, which arguably has a greater benefit on

outcomes for young children into later life, or you could spend it on, well, she won't do this, but like labour on to scrap the two-child limit, for instance, or are going to scrap it. So which the Tories oppose, you know, so there are different ways of approaching this, but I do want to reiterate the point. We're slightly talking about fantasy money at the moment.

It is a way of signaling rather than it is of kind of this is not the draft manifesto, although the Tories are working on a draft manifesto and that's because they think, or they're trying to make us think there will be an election next year. Interesting. And I think also for our listeners, perhaps the popularity of the conservatives can be seen, as a party, can be seen differently to the personality at times of Kemi Baderner. would you agree? Oh, absolutely.

And all the polling shows that she's outperforming her party by a huge margin. And so what we're seeing this week is some of the kind of cast of, you know, the B-list actors are getting their turn in the sun as she did a speech. Yesterday she'll do another one on Wednesday, but today we're seeing the economy team and the work and pensions team all come out a bit and try and sort of explain who they are. I think there's a kind of big question mark hanging of this. which is are people actually listening again?

Never mind, have they forgiven the Tories and are prepared to, you know, vote for them? It's a question of whether people are listening. And I think that is an open debate. But I think it is interesting that aspect she gets to about principle before policy. You talk about there that it would be a conservative playbook, so to speak, in a way what the pamphlet reflects.

But do you think that might resonate with people? I think people are looking for sort of deep things. thinking and big ideas. We've sort of got, I think, as I was in the country into a kind of sort of flap, a state where everyone's sort of kicking out and trying to find the kind of big solution because nothing seems to work, you know, the potholes are never fixed, you know, you can't get an appointment at your GP, or the kind of daily grind stuff that sort of drags people down in what's still the kind of fifth largest economy in the world. So having someone who turns around and says,

well, these are my ideas to fix it, is I don't think a bad idea. And actually the problem with the Starma project, perhaps less so with the Anti-Bernham project, is we didn't really know what he stood for. I think that's now clear what Andy Burnham stands for. But the point about last week's speech for Andy Burnham is that all his thinking was for three years hence.

This was the stuff he's going to put in the next manifesto for the next Parliament. We didn't really hear very much about immediate growth, economic growth. We didn't hear much about problem, you know, how he's going to fix the economy. I suppose partly because we're waiting for the budget next month, but also there was a kind of open question mark

on how Andy Burnham's going to limp on for the next three years before he gets to do his grand vision. But we are seeing definitely differences in policies and perhaps principles as we speak about the Conservative Party conference, which is underway. I want to thank very much Kitty Donaldson for starting us off this morning, Chief Political Commentator at the IPAper. If you'd like to get in touch 8484.

is one of the ways to do it. Now, back in 2024, Women's Hour travelled to Ireland to the town of Chum in County Galway. We went there to make a special programme about the Chum Baby scandal and when I was there, I met extraordinary women. One of those was an amateur historian

whose relentless pursuit of the truth helped to bring the story of hundreds of babies from a mother and baby home being disposed of in a disused sewage tank that hit the headlines. worldwide in 2014. And I do understand this is a distressing story and I should let you know about that

before we get into some more of the details. But the woman, one of the women that I met who was the amateur historian, that was Catherine Corliss. She is now widely recognised as one of modern Ireland's most celebrated and tireless human rights campaigners. Back in 2024, I met Catherine in her home in Chum

and this is Catherine reacting to the scale. of the scandal. I was absolutely horrified. It really hit me, but as well as being horrified, I think it gave me the strength to keep going because it was quite obvious to me that this was purposely done to cover up and it was because they were illegitimate

and there was no care. They were just treated as... I wouldn't even say treated like animals because, I mean, you treat your animals better. We have a little graveyard out there of all the dogs and cats we have over the years and I know exactly where everyone is buried. I buried them myself with care and dignity

and said a few words to them because that's what they meant to me. But then to put down all these beautiful babies and toddlers, just wrap them up, put them down in a sewage facility and forget all about them. It was too horrific for me to ever. I had to be a voice for them and there was no question about it.

I had to keep going and I had to find justice for them. Catherine Corlis, well, her story has now been made into a film called The Lost Children of Chum. co-produced by Liam Neeson. And playing Catherine is Bafta and Olivier Award-winning actor Monica Dolan, who joins me now in the studio. Good morning.

Good morning, Neela. So good to have you with us. I understand both your parents are Irish. Yes. My dad's from, was from Swords in Dublin. He's no longer with us. My mum's from County, Oxford, from Enoskorthy. Neither of those accents.

They're very different accents from each other, but they're also completely unhelpful with the tomb accent, which is over in the west of Ireland. So I got a lot of help with that, luckily, from Catherine, who was really approachable and extremely helpful throughout the whole process and actually recorded all my lines for me in the end. Did she? She's a wonderful, wonderful lady.

How'd you heard the story of the tune babies previously? I had. I'd heard it when the story broke in 2014 on the news, on the BBC and obviously was really horrified by it and then sort of didn't hear any more about it until I got the script but I know that lots of work was going on in between obviously. Yeah, it is a beautiful film.

I was lucky enough to see it the other day and what really moved me, because we have been in Catherine's home previously, those small details that really bring that story to life. You met with Catherine, also her husband, Aden, at their home, as did we. And their home is such a central part of this film, that kitchen table in particular. What was that like to enter that world? Yeah, I mean, our director Frank Berry and DAP used to sort of call it HQ around the kitchen table.

And that's where Catherine met so many of the survivors and people would come in who needed her help and they'd always be welcome there. I think the reason I'm really glad that I actually asked to go meet her and the reason that I'm really glad that we met at her home is because she's so grounded there and she really, really cares about her family and that's really, really who she is. And, you know, lots of the time in the film,

we sort of see her slightly out of her comfort zone she'd kind of organised her life so that the things that she enjoyed doing most involved being on her own or being at home and now she's sort of become this enormous public figure so that's all been quite a journey for her. When we were at her home, I think I thought initially

I'm going to go there and we're going to be pouring over documents and we're going to be looking at maps and we did a bit of that but actually she showed me the model that she made of St Mary's mother and baby home. She made that herself because there were so few photographs. And she made it so that she could have a vision of it herself, but also, you know, be able to show it and describe it to the survivors and say, this is where your mother would have been interviewed,

this is where you would have been born. And when I started talking to her about that, I just thought, okay, I think I just want to know more about what's important to her. And I said, what's your favourite thing? And she said, my garden. And then we went for a walk in her backfield with Shadow the dog following us. That's why he's called Shadow. And, yeah, I think I got really more of the sense of her there.

Yeah. Which is very funny. Very funny. Grounded is a really interesting word as well. I feel she's got such inner strength and resilience, which is, of course, which you would have to have trying to fight for justice in a story like this. I was struck by the film a very powerful part.

There are no words uttered. It is people who were affected showing up and sitting with Catherine at that kitchen table. I wonder what it was like to film that. Yeah, there's a whole survivor sequence. I mean, I have to be honest, in practical terms, it was very quick. And I was getting in and out of lots of different costumes very quickly because all of these survivors obviously appeared on different days.

So a lot of it was being really sort of quickly getting redone and then kind of being introduced and then sort of sitting. and I suppose in the moments when it was being filmed, just really having all your listening senses open. Yeah. And just trying to be very open and just feel the person that you're in the room with and what they need. And there was some really beautiful moments and performances from those people

and sort of, yes, just sort of being open to that. And even one of the things I love is that even a small movement always creates another movement in a space. And, you know, there was a lot of that. So it was a matter of being open to that. And obviously, after all the mayhem, as soon as the camera goes on, just being really tuned into that.

Yeah, yeah. I found that, I mean, awesome is the word. but in that real awe-inspiring way of people being so open and kind of understanding the pain that they've gone through. I was also re-watching because there was some documentary footage that is within the film as well,

re-watching a passionate speech by then Thyshock, Prime Minister Enda Kenny, who was citing Ireland's historical and these are his words, morbid relationship to respectability. How difficult was it to steep yourself in that sad history in preparation for the role? I think that when I read the article, Dan Barry's article,

which is from the New York Times. From the New York Times and that's, you know, Liam Neeson got the rights to that and that's what the film's based on. I was very struck, I mean, my heritage is British Irish and I was very struck to sort of read an American view and I mean he has Irish heritage too, but from the outside, the historical context of seeing that the state at the time was really, really fragile, and that hadn't struck me before.

And so so much of the responsibility, government departments even, were handed over to the church, which was obviously extremely strong and powerful. And one of the things as well was that because it was a new, Republic. It wanted to seem squeaky clean and as if it was working. And one of the ways to do that was to hide away women who'd become pregnant. Yes, I mean, it was just some of the stories of priests visiting a family when they found out that one of the young women or girls might be pregnant. And then they're being taken away to the mother and baby home so that the rest of the village or the rest of the area, I guess the thought was that they wouldn't contaminate the other girls, which is a really horrible.

That morbid relationship with respect to village. Exactly. And gossip. Yeah. And their autonomy, of course, taken away as well and sometimes not able to return. Monica, I was mentioning Catherine Corliss there, but there is, of course, another woman who helped bring this story to the world's attention. and that is the also extraordinary journalist Alison O'Reilly of the Irish Examiner.

Great to have you back with us, Alison. Thank you for joining us. I see you, thank you. I found it, I suppose, after meeting Catherine, and also as we immersed ourselves in that story, watching it incredibly powerful, but I want to know how you felt after seeing the film. Oh, I was so worried about the film

because it usually takes decades for a, film to be made after a big story like this. But I found that, you know, the director and the writers, they were just fantastic. Frank Berry came to meet everybody. They met with survivors. They had a lot to take in and a lot of individual characters and opinions and sensitivities to take in. So it was a huge, big emotional area that they had to work with.

So I was a little bit nervous sitting down to watch that I went to the world premiere in Galway. I was so blown away. I just couldn't believe this powerful and the way they just put it all together in one go, having just been on it for years and years, how are they going to get this in? How are they going to get that in? How are they going to tell the overall picture?

And it was just, I just sat there for ages and cried and cried. And I mean, there must have been, a standing ovation for about 10 minutes. Yeah. You know, Monica, you did an absolutely brilliant job. I know Catherine Coral since 2014. You became Catherine. And it was extraordinary to see that on screen.

Like she was so like her. Even became a vegetarian, I believe, as Catherine said. For well. Just to see that, you know. And even the funny bits. Catherine is very funny. And so is Aidan, her husband. So to see those funny bits like, did you only get one copy of the paper?

You know, it's just a funny little bit. I felt that the relationship for the little time I spent with them, but you feel that warmed between them and very, I would say, Irish humour as well between them, that very much came across in the film. And I suppose also, Monica, what's that like? You know, you're playing a relationship that obviously Catherine and Aden are going to look back at your portrayal of them.

I guess so. I mean, I was at the Galway film floor as well at the premiere. It was a completely overwhelming night because I had Frank on one side of me, Frank Barry, the director and Catherine on the other side of me. Catherine's grandchildren were behind me, you know. Yeah, it was just really extraordinary actually. Yeah, I'm sure. And to know that the person you're playing is sitting there right beside me.

Aidan's actually got a small part in the film. He plays the priest in the film. So I was sort of nudging Catherine at that point. But I got a sense of their humour very, very quickly because when I went there to research and we pulled up outside the house, Frank started laughing. I said, what are you laughing at?

He was driving. And he said, oh, God, Aidan. And we looked out and Aiden had rolled a red carpet out of their front door. for us to come in on. And he said that's completely Aiden's sense of humour. And then Catherine ran out and the dogs ran out and she's sort of so impish and just her eyes glint.

And she's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, she's one of a kind. Let me come back, Alison, to present day. The film, I think, ends maybe, is it 2021, perhaps? I'm trying to remember you at the end. Just when they have the, yeah, and the memorial service. that takes place.

But we are now in 2026, in 2025, a mass exhumation off the site was started. This will be a slow process, obviously. But what is the state of play at the moment? Well, to date, they have recovered 109 babies. So we're looking for 796, possibly more. And the whole centre of the now Dublin Road Housing estate is in place. of where the mother and baby home was that we're speaking about in this film

and that's why there's no pictures and Catherine made that structure but within the centre of that is a playground at Carr park and then the green area that we would all know of with the statue of our ladies so we always believe that was the burial site but Catherine and campaigners like Anna Corrigan

had campaigned for all those years to try and have the whole centre dug up so that's exactly what's happening it's 5,000 square metres and they've started in sections So they're doing hand excavation and machine excavation. And so far, before coming to the final place that they're going to dig up, which is where the septic tanks are, they have uncovered 109 babies.

So there's a burial site under a concreted car park that you and I would have driven over, Nula, and it's actually gone into the back of some of the gardens of the Dublin Road housing estate. In there, they have recovered babies in coffins, some up to three babies. in coffins and that's where they're concentrating at the moment. There were old maps that mentioned a burial site there, but there was no surface markings at all. So that's where the heavy concentration is at the moment. And with each tiny infant found, Dr. Neve McCullough,

who's the consultant forensic archaeologist there, she is taking the babies out, removing the lid, examining everything on ground, photographing everything. And from there, the babies then go to a new mortuary. in Hedford and a forensic lab headed up by Alicia Winburn there and Dr. Orrin O'Reilly. And that's where they clean and prepare the bones. And there's dental forensics there as a whole international, extraordinary team looking after these babies. So that's ongoing.

It's supposed to last two years. It's going to be extended. I understand. Do you feel, Alison, that you're any closer to justice on this story? I believe now having been so pessimistic for 12 years that this was never going to happen. But these babies are being recovered and I think it's very important to say that, you know, there was a time when all of these women had these things done to them, their babies taken from them because they were unmarried mothers, you know, separated for the community,

separated from their families and their children. And now today it's women who are seeking the truth like Catherine Corliss and a Corrigan who set up the June Babies family group to help with the children and their families to try and do identification there. But also we have Dr. Neve McCullough, the senior forensic consultant there on the ground, taking the babies from the ground with her team. And then they're carefully transported to this mortuary to another woman, Alicia Winburn, who's overseeing the mortuary there.

So it's like women are saying, no, we're going to give you back your truth. And it's like this extraordinary circle has been completed. and by women. Yes, indeed. There is another film from even that moment in 2021 to bring us to here. But for now,

we want to thank Monica Dolan coming into us in studio. Alison O'Reilly as well. So good to have you. The Lost Children of Chum is out in cinemas this Friday, so on the 9th of October. And you can also listen

to our whole episode of Woman's Hour on the Tune Baby Scandal on BBC Sounds. I think it is a powerful listen. Just search for September 30th, 24 so just a couple of years ago and that is on BBC sounds.

I do also want to say that the institution at Chum was owned by Galway County Council and run by a religious order that was the Bon Secours Sisters. The order has previously acknowledged that children and infants were and I quote buried in a disrespectful and unacceptable way unquote and apologised. It has contributed £2.14 million towards the cost of the excavation. Galway County Council also apologised for, and I quote, failing mothers and children, unquote, after the inquiry report in 2021.

The government says it passed the Institutional Burial Act in 2022 to authorise the excavation, recovery, identification if possible, and dignified re-briol of the children's remains and says an appointed director is committed to ensuring that the families, local community, other stakeholders and the public are kept up to date on progress at the site. We will continue to keep you up to date too. Thanks,

growing businesses deal with the same problem, too many tools, too much back and forth, and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing,

so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth. Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, Odu gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo. com to book a demo. It's O'Dbolo.com. An observatory in space. This is the real deal.

This is going to revolutionize astronomy. Capable of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess, and for the whole world to see what Hubble really can do. From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes, Trouble with Hubble, the story of the Hubble Space Telescape. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. You both. 8444-844 if you'd like to get in touch with Women's Hour this morning. Some of you are because we're talking about the weather, turning a little more chilly this week. Maybe some of us are thinking about swapping our cereal for something a bit more warming or nourishing porridge, perhaps.

There is one woman who knows more than most what it takes to make the perfect bowl of porridge. Gina Sowerbear, she's just won the coveted golden spurtle at the World Parage Making Championship. It took place in Carbridge in the Highlands on Saturday. This morning I spoke to Gina. She's based in the Netherlands and I started by asking her how it feels to be crowned this winner.

Yeah, it's amazing. The whole experience was very beautiful. Everyone was so welcoming and warming. and do have the grand prize in your hands is absolutely amazing. You travelled all the way from the Netherlands to this small Scottish town to take part. Why? Because porridge. You know, it's a beautiful product and I really fell in love with it.

And you travel all the way to North Scotland. That's a treat, to be honest. It's so beautiful up here. And tell me, I mean, is porridge big in the Netherlands? No, not as it is here. Of course, it is eaten, but it's not popular. You don't have conversation about porridge. I mean, it exists, but very much on the background.

So during the competition, is that what the chat is all about? People are discussing porridge, various ways of making it, eating it, what creates the best porridge? Oh, yes. Of course, we all have our secrets, but we also discuss how to top your porridge, especially since we all have a lot of porridge to make before the competition to practice. We kind of grow bored of just a plain one.

So we have a group chat where we share ideas. And that group chat really came alive as well during the competition. So there was a lot of porridge talk, yeah. I love the group chat. Now I'm looking for secrets. But can you tell me the name of that group chat? Oh, I think it's just something simple like the Golden Spurtle, 2026. so I'm not so exciting.

I love the name of WhatsApp groups at times. So with this, and you talk about, you know, various ways of doing it, but this was quite limited. For this contest, the rules say only three ingredients, oats, water and salt. You literally went the extra mile to try and win. Tell me about what you brought from your home city. A lot, actually. I brought Dutch salt

I brought Dutch water and I brought Dutch oats so those oats were not for my city but a lot of for my home country I think that made a difference as well in the porridge so hang on you brought the salt you mentioned the oats okay from the Netherlands but also water

it was very heavy in my back yes I'm glad that it's already all gone now so it's kind of empty but I think the water we have in my city Zutphen is just very soft I never have to clean my bathroom much from all the white stuff. That's not a thing that I have. So I think that makes a difference in the oats as well.

Aha. And how is it different? Good question. I don't know. It just kind of works. I think it just brings out the flavors of the oats in a particular way because of the minerals that are just naturally present. I don't know the science, but it worked.

So you just do it, let's say, a little bit of feminine. intuition and here you are the winner of the Golden Spurtle. You talk about the group chat. So obviously there's a lot of camaraderie or friendliness. But is there also some intense competition? Is there, you know, rivalry that takes place? I haven't seen much of rivalry. I mean, as a national champion, I guess I could be intimidating, but I've never had such a, an interaction that they could feel like, oh, they're being intimidated by me because I already won something. And with the world champion of 2025, I didn't get that feeling either. No, it was very fun and lighthearted mostly. And so now, what's next?

What's next? Well, next, yeah, we'll go back to defend my title and see if someone can make better for it's my. And do you get an actual spurts? Like that tool? Do you go home with one in your hand? Yes, I did actually get a spurtle engraved that I am the winner. So that will go on a very special spot in my home. Still thinking if I will put them in the kitchen or a nice little cabinet, but it will get a very special place. And I know it's oats, water and salt for the competition.

But just in day-to-day life, any special topping for your porridge? Well, the thing I do most is actually just brown sugar. cinnamon and a tiny bit of vegan butter because that is the combination that I used to do on rice pudding, which I ate when I was a child. So it's very nostalgic to me. Sometimes I just use honey because my girlfriend is beekeeper, so that's very used to get. Very delicious. So those I would recommend. There you go. Recommendations this morning from Gina Sarbear. And she would know she's the winner of the golden spurtle

at the World Porridge Making Championship. Lots of you getting in touch. Here's one. Brett, best porridge recipe is a shot of coffee, spoon of mascarbone and a spoon of Nutella.

It's the best tiramisu porridge ever. I like that. Here's another that she regularly makes herself porridge and has a well-used spurtle to stir the pot.

But she talked about her grandfather. He ate his using two bowls, one for the porridge and the other filled with creamy milk, into which he dipped his spoon first and then into the steaming porridge, but never the two together. Leslie, she's in the northeast of Scotland,

so she might also know, she says it is a sustaining meal. But many, many if you have got in touch about the porridge, I'll read some more of your comments a little bit later. But I want to turn to my next guest in studio, who is the broadcaster, Ashley James. She's known for her honest posts on social media, and last weekend she shared one of her most personal yet.

She wrote about the lasting effect, of birth complications, specifically incontinence and why she believes we need to speak more openly about it. The response, to say the least, has been huge. Ashley, you're very welcome back to Women's Hour. Good to have you with us. Thank you for having me back. We also have down the line Dr. Ellie Cannon, GP and women's health expert.

Good morning, Dr. Ellie. Good morning. Let me turn to you, Ashley. Were you conflicted about sharing this information? No, I think I always try to be really open, because I think often the shame and stigma that surrounds nearly every part of women's health doesn't protect us

and it doesn't encourage the system to be better at helping us. It kind of leaves us feeling unprepared and isolated. So everything I always talk about is to try and make things better for not just women because incontinence is something that also impacts men. But I think I feel particular anger about the kind of postpartum narrative and conversations that we have. Yeah, and I can understand that anger completely. Your incontinence began after a traumatic birth six years ago.

How would you describe the impact that is hard on your day-to-day life? I think the impact is obviously not just the physical effects of living with not only incontinence, but also prolapse. It impacts your ability to do certain movements to exercise, but also it's your sense of freedom, your confidence, And also not to mention the cost because, you know, having to rely on tenor pads, it all adds up. So I think it just feels that it's something that I'm constantly having to plan and think about. And like in this situation that I had where I went to Paris and I lost my wash bag for a lot of people.

I did find it again. So there is a bit of a happy story. But, you know, having no pads for that 24 hours, like it's one thing, it's an annoyance to lose your washbag, but to lose kind of like the crux of your confidence, it's devastating and it's something I think about all the time. And while my life looks so glamorous with all the great work that I get to do, I think that's why it's also important

to show sometimes the reality behind what we go through with our health. And just some may not be fully aware of tenor paths. They're incontinence paths. It's one of the brands, there's other brands as well available. But there is, I suppose, this stigma or shame that you talk about that can surround incontinence. But what about the reaction you got? Whenever I talk about anything to do with post-birth injuries,

the reaction is always amazing because so many women feel alone and feel shame and feel too embarrassed to try and seek help. And I think that's the main joy for me of getting to kind of try and dismantle these stigmas and taboos because it's not just unary incontinence. I also experience fecal incontinence because I was stitched up incorrectly. And, you know, there's just so much, there's such a lack of knowledge about what happens after birth.

I think we often, as I did, go into it thinking there's the fourth trimester and by then, you know, you get your sign off and then you go back to normal. But it's just not the reality. And even speaking about something like prolapse, there's so many women that have come to me, They didn't even know it was a possibility to get prolapse, at least until they were much, much older.

Or they've been kind of gaslit by medical professionals. So any time I talk about it, it's just so nice that even if it helps one person feel like they're not alone or that there is no stigma. And I think because I speak openly about my partner kind of being involved in, you know, him having to run through Paris to look for pads for me. And he came back with these big pants. It's like we shouldn't have to be. be embarrassed. You know, if he had an operation, we would, I would care for him. Whereas for some

reason after birth, that only dialogue we hear is mother and baby doing well or do you want to bounce back? And I've always been like, no, I want to bounce back in or I want to feel confident in my body. Of course it has an impact on your relationship because if you lose your confidence or your ability to trust your body, it has such an impact. So I think we have to be open and talk about these things because the silence basically doesn't help anyone. And I will just mention with prolapse, that can be the pelvic floor muscles and tissues weakened so organs like bladder or womb or the bowel can slip from the normal position and bulge into or out of the vagina.

But of course this will be common knowledge for many people that are listening as well as the incontinence. Well, let me bring you in here, Dr. Ellie. Ashley is shining a light. and obviously from the response she's getting, it has resonated with a lot of people. Perhaps it's more common than many realise. Yes, it's incredibly common

and we need people like Ashley to talk about these things for exactly the reason that she says. It's interesting that she sort of mentions gaslighting sort of in terms of the healthcare professionals because I think also there's gaslighting within the media, within social media of what that mother and baby experience looks like. And particularly in terms of health now, we're so sort of like pressured by consumerist messages on social media that the, you know, dark and grim reality of health, like something like urinary incontinence, which is affecting so many women, just can't see the light of days. It's so important people with the presence like Ashley are talking about it.

And being honest that actually this is what your post-birth experience can look like. because then that drives change within health. I'm sure now, even talking about this in Women's Hour, is going to drive some change. We have terrible access in this country to pelvic floor physiotherapy, to getting women checked after birth, to pelvic floor clinics. You know, this type of discussion can drive those sort of changes. And, I mean, that is interesting about when those changes might come.

Of course, that would be a matter of policy. and Ashley has spoken specifically about complications around childbirth, but there are women who will go through incontinence at many life stages, not always potentially childbirth. Yeah, that's exactly right. So there are women who go through incontinence because of other surgeries, things like gynecology surgery after a hysterectomy. It's relatively common after the menopause in terms of incontinence.

It can often be for women associated with other medications, other health conditions. And it's really important as well. Women don't necessarily develop incontinence or prolapse because they've had a vaginal delivery. It's actually carrying the weight of the baby that actually puts that pressure on the pelvic floor. So this is relevant to women no matter what type of delivery you've had. But with this, I think a lot will probably be nodding their heads, actually.

But the sort of help that is out there, I mean, how did you find it? I think you felt very much at one of your first visits that doctors were concentrating on the baby and not on you. Yeah, so I should add that it was also lockdown at the time. So I think it was a particularly difficult time to have a child. But I had my stitches and I remember just really looking forward to that six-week sign-off and it ended up being an eight-week sign-off.

But it was all about my son. And, you know, rightfully so he's a baby. I remember saying, do you want to check my stitches? And they were like, oh, no, that's not necessary. And it's, you know, it's a very intimate place to have stitches. You don't know if they've healed, if they've, like, you just, you just don't know. And I just felt like I was kind of brushed aside. And it was only actually a few months later that I decided to go back to running.

And I worked with an amazing women's health, like pelvic health physio, because I had pelvic girdle pain during pregnancy. And she messaged me actually on Instagram. saying before you start running, can you just come and see me? And so I paid for a private health pelvic health specialist and that's when I was diagnosed with rectal but that's when I also said to her. So at what point will the fecal incontinence stop? Because it was something that I was living with that of course was like very, very embarrassing but I just assumed it must be one of the silent postpartum that you hadn't heard about.

that nobody talks about and that was when she said oh no that's actually that's not meant to happen let's get you checked and that was when I discovered because I was then referred back into the hospital and that's when I discovered that I had rectocil which is the prolapse but also that I'd been stitched up incorrectly and I think you know often when we try to talk about our post birth experiences we're told that it's too much information or that we shouldn't scare other pregnant people or even the idea of a negative birth or I would always say traumatic birth, that's somehow like a mindset issue or something that we should keep secret. I just think until we start having more honest conversations before birth, we aren't preparing people for the potential side effects that we might experience. And I suppose also

to understand when something isn't right. Ellie, let me come back to you, urinary or fecal incontinence. what can women do? Well, Ashley's mentioned there about pelvic floor physiotherapy. These are physiotherapists who specialize in that sling of muscle that keeps the bowel and the bladder continent. And it's not just a case of having a quick squeeze every so often. These are proper healthcare professionals who do a program with you and improve matters. There are medicines that we can help give you for urinary incontinence.

Sometimes people actually need treatment. And big shout out as well to the patient support charities like the Bladjian Boul Foundation who help with products and different ideas and tips. Because as Ashley's explained, it costs a lot of money. It's very inconvenient. There's lots of products out there that could make people feel more confident while they're waiting for treatment. So I think, yeah, the takeaway from this is not to suffer in silence. Ashley has spoken out and has really

I suppose brought attention to this over the past couple of days and maybe people will go and seek help if you do have issues of course do go to your GP with any of the issues that we have been discussing Ashley James, thanks so much for coming in and Dr. Ellie Cannon thanks so much for your

advice as well that you've added to it this morning we did contact the hospital concerned for a statement but they have not got back to us yet in relation to this story. Thanks for your messages that are coming in. Here's one. I eat porridge every day, even during a heat wave. My method is porridge mixed with unsweetened soy milk,

frozen blueberries, half a banana. That gets cooked in a microwave for two minutes. Then I added a teaspoon, I know a teaspoon, excuse me, of maple syrup, the rest of the banana and a few grapes. I sometimes smile to myself about how much I enjoy it day after day. Another simple. My favourite porridge is with lemon curd and blueberries. We have a lot of porridge eaters out there.

My Aberdeenshire grandfather always stood up to eat his porridge out of respect for the oat, which he said had saved Scotland from starvation. My mother was in her 90s. She often talked about they'd have a big cauldron of porridge that will be bubbling day and night. So when you came in, like even from a dance, late at night, 2 a.m.

you'd get yourself a little bowl of porridge before you'd go to bed and there you wouldn't have to wake up too hungry in the morning. So keep your stories coming. 8-4-844. Love reading them. Now, the stage and screen actor Jane Asher and Laura Main, who's best known for Call the Midwife, play the Queen and her dresser in By Royal Appointment. Daisy Goodwin's play about the quiet power behind the monarch's public image. It reveals, feels how the Queen expressed what she couldn't say through colour, coats, and yes, a hat. And also how her dresser rose from lipstick advice to real influence. The play is currently on a UK tour. This week they'll be at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham. I'm delighted to say we have Jane Asher and Laura Main joining us now. Welcome to Women's Hour.

Laura, let me start with you. You play The Dresser. And the play is based somewhat on the memoirs of Angela Kelly, who was the Queen's dresser. for many years all about and of course many people will know Queen Elizabeth I second her dresser was

very important part of her life how would you describe your character in this play oh wow yeah I play Gigi the Queen's dresser

who in our play spans a longer time than Angela Kelly worked for the Queen so we see her be a girl to you know a woman in her early 7 And yes, she's absolutely, she sort of climbs that ladder of career, but also that intimate relationship that she builds with the Queen.

And, you know, how close they become. Because by the end, you know, she's almost her carer as well as, you know, she's become her confidant and her best friend. And as well as absolutely protecting and making sure that, you know, she isn't taken advantage of or her image is always. precise. But such different women? Oh yes. Yeah, very different. I mean, you would say, yes, from completely different backgrounds and very different

from a lot of the people that would be working in the palaces and serving the queen. But the queen really took to Angela, who this character is based on. Gigi. Gigi.

And and yeah, She just, they had a laugh. She probably respected that she was quite sort of no nonsense, very honest. So I think she could trust her. And it's crazy to sort of relate to the queen, but I very much relate to the dresser, but also I can relate to being dressed as an actress.

And, you know, how important that relationship is and how, you know, somebody who's done my makeup or costume on set become, they are my best friends. I call them, I call them the miracle workers. Yes. Yes. I bought my makeup done for television or whatever it might be. But let us turn to Jane for a moment. And I had the pleasure, of course,

of seeing Laura and Jane in a rehearsal, which I've never done before. So I was behind the scenes watching it as it began to evolve. And Jane, you're playing Queen Elizabeth II. I know you talked about, you know, when you put on the wig that was a time you felt you were transforming. How does it feel to play her? Well, it's terrifying, of course.

Not only because she is, well, probably the most famous woman in the world at that time, but also because so many brilliant actresses have played her. But you have to kind of push that aside and just think, well, I'll do my version. Yes, putting the wig on, I mean, I cannot say change me into the Queen, but it certainly gave me a lot of help from being a sort of red-headed, well, now-died red-headed woman.

We say chosen. We say chosen, Redhead. That's it. I'm now chosen, but I was, of course, original years ago. Yeah, so just the look of a brunette wig on me was so very different that some of the cast said, oh my goodness, you looked like the queen. So that was very helpful. Can I briefly thank Ashley for that wonderful piece on inconstance? Just very briefly. Please.

One of my babies was very big. The last thing you can do is your pelvic floor exercises is when you've just had the baby and you're in agony, etc. And I can tell you, projecting on stage is extremely dangerous when you have a bit of a problem and you've had a big baby.

You know, the force, you wouldn't believe, the force that's exerted. So just thank you, Ashley. Yeah, well, she's still in the building, so perhaps she will also be hearing. I already told her Jane because Jane had told me

about this interview that Ashley did just the other day. So I've already passed on how marvellous you think she is. And she's putting it out there and getting people talking, which is of course so important. It's really helpful.

Coming back. So back to the Queen. Back to the Queen. The writer is Daisy Goodwin, as I mentioned briefly. She's known for bringing historical figures very vividly to life. She wrote the ITV drama, Victoria, which many will know.

What conversations did you have to have, Jane, about balancing historical accuracy with creating this character on stage? Well, as Laura said, it was mainly based on the real woman, Angela Kelly, and obviously I looked at her books. And I think that's what particularly interested me that it's a time we can see behind the scenes written, well, based on some writing by a woman who actually had got, it was her, had gone through it.

So we see the queen in a way we've never quite seen her before, based on a lot of truth. That's what I think is very interesting. We see her much more relaxed with the dresser than she is in her formal work. I suppose I was hoping to kind of show the formal side because we see her with her milliner and her designer, which is a lot more formal and they're very deferential and so on. But then to see her chatting and joking with the dresser is a whole other side of her that I think we always kind of knew was probably there in our lovely queen,

but you don't get to experience it with so much truth in it. And I think Laura and I hopefully have developed a relationship that's not that far off. Although obviously we are both on a level rather than the very grandperson and somebody that would be at a very different place in her life. But we love doing it, don't we, Laura? I mean, it's a wonderful play to do. And even before you were in the hair and the costumes,

which is extraordinary, your performance was such that there was moments, where I just go, gosh, I'm in the presence of the Queen. And to be honest, you know, Jane is very self-deprecating, which makes it so easy to sort of play with her. But actually, you know, she's a marvel, Jane. And so to have that sort of looking up to Jane, it's kind of very easy, actually. And it is an emotional rollercoaster. You know what I mean?

At times very poignant. Yes. At times very funny as well. I chuckled so much during the scenes that I sat through. And I suppose also so many of the outfits that we are familiar with that she is able to speak in a way to her public through them. Yes, yes, exactly. You span so much time.

So we go from 69 to 22. So you've got all sorts of different fashions. It covers Brexit. It covers Charles and Dies wedding. You know, it just covers so many things. The play by Royal Appointment is currently on a UK tour next off Nottingham at the Theatre Royal 6 to the 10th of October. Jane Asha, Laura Main.

Thanks so much. See you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Technology is changing our lives at a rapid pace, but how might it be impacting what we value? I'm Ros Atkins, and in a new series, I'm exploring how tech is shifting our ideas of worth

in friendship, culture, finance and work. I'll look back at technological revolutions of the past, as well as looking forward to a world centered around AI. to test whether what really matters to us is changing. From BBC Radio 4, that's the value crisis. With me, Ros Atkins. Listen now on BBC Sounds. An observatory in space.

This is the real deal. This is going to revolutionize astronomy. Capable of capturing light from the dawn of the universe. It could be real exciting for the astronomical community, I guess, and for the whole world to see what Hubble really can do. From the BBC World Service, 13 minutes, trouble with Hubble, the story of the Hubble Space Telescape. Listen now on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.