Woman's Hour - The manosphere, Bowel cancer, Daytime TV cuts

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

We hear a lot about the pressures boys and young men are under and how many of them are looking to the online world - or manosphere as it's sometimes called - to find answers. Prompted by the drama Adolescence on Netflix, the topic has been in the news regularly in recent weeks. This week the Women and Equalities Select Committee heard evidence on the manosphere. Anita Rani is joined by Will Adolphy, who was a dedicated follower of the manosphere until, in his mid 20s, he had a breakdown. He went offline for five years and rebuilt his life. He is now a psychotherapist, coach, and goes to schools to speak about healthy masculinity.This week ITV has announced a shake up of the scheduling and production of its popular daytime shows including Lorraine, Loose Women and Good Morning Britain. Whilst Good Morning Britain will be extended, both Lorraine and Loose Women will see their number of shows cut. Entertainment journalist and expert on all-things TV Scott Bryan unpicks why this is happening.The Bombing of Pan Am 103 – is a new BBC factual drama series. Based on the true story of the bombing of a passenger flight over a small Scottish town of Lockerbie on 21 December 1988, in which 270 people were killed. Kathryn Turman was Assistant to a federal Senator at the time of the bombing. After the trial she joined the FBI where she founded the agency’s first ever Victim Services Division. Her experience in the aftermath of the Pan Am bombing proved invaluable to the FBI’s response to the 9/11 attacks, and she has aided victims and families throughout major moments in history including the Las Vegas shooting and the Boston marathon bombing. She discusses her mission to help victims, and what inspired her work in public service.Next month marks three years since the journalist and host of BBC's You, Me and the Big C podcast Deborah James - known to many as Bowel Babe - died, aged 40, five years after her stage four bowel cancer diagnosis. Bowel cancer is the third most common cancer type and cause of cancer death for women. Since the early 1990s, the incidence rate in women aged 25-49 has increased by almost 60%. Bowel cancer is treatable if diagnosed early. Heather James, Deborah’s mother, is fulfilling a promise to her daughter and continuing with Deborah’s awareness-raising work - she and Michelle Mitchell, Chief Executive of Cancer Research UK, are in the Woman's Hour studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey

BBC Sounds music radio podcast. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We have Heather James on the programme today. Heather is the mother of Dame Deborah James or bowel babe who died from bowel cancer nearly three years ago. But not before she did everything in her power to raise awareness of the disease. Now Heather is continuing the work of her daughter. The charity has raised an extraordinary amount of money, around 17 million pounds. Their initial target was 250,000. We're going to be talking about how the funds are being used but also remembering Debra. So this

morning we want to hear about how you remember your loved ones who are no longer with us. Do you have a ritual on the anniversary of their death? Do you wear their favorite scent? Is there an album or a song that reminds you of them? Have you continued the work that they started, kept their legacy going? How do you celebrate their life?

And how does this in turn help you? I'm going to France at the beginning of next week, and I will be having a baguette fight in honor of my Uncle Gov. It's an in-joke. Get in touch with me and tell me how you remember your loved ones. The text number is 84844. You can WhatsApp the program on 03700 100444. You can email us via our website and please follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, the slashing of daytime telly? Lorraine and Loose Women are having their slots reduced. Why is it that the programmes aimed at women are feeling much of the pressure?

Also the Manosphere, what is it? What can you do about it? I'll be speaking to someone who knows from first-hand experience of being in it. And possibly one of the most impressive women I've had the privilege of interviewing. She founded and shaped the FBI's Victim Services Division and is described as an empathetic pioneer. All of that and of course your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the program, more than welcome that text number 84844. But first, this week ITV has announced a shake-up of the scheduling and production

of its popular daytime shows including Lorraine, Loose Women and GMB. Whilst Good Morning Britain will be extended, both Lorraine and Loose Women will see their shows reduced. There will be staff cuts across all programmes. It's been described as a bloodbath by sources within the industry. So what does this mean for the future of daytime TV and the fact that these shows are presented by women? Joining me now is entertainment journalist and expert on all things,

telly Scott Bryan. Welcome to Women's Hours, Scott. Morning. I think we should start by you just talking us through what the changes are that are taking place. So quite significant changes, not just behind the scenes, but I think in terms of what viewers will notice. So from January next year, Loose Women and Lorraine, which is currently all throughout the year, every week of the year, will just be 30 weeks a year. And then Good Morning Britain will actually be extending into Lorraine's slot.

Lorraine's show will be only sort of 30 minutes. There's going to be quite a big impact, I think, in terms of the number of people who currently work on these programmes, reportedly about 220 out of 440 staff who work across these programmes will lose their jobs. So it's obviously a very tough situation for those who work there.

And also I think the look and feel of these shows might change too. So far for the last sort of 10 years or so, they've been in TV centre. A lot of the daytime shows will be moving elsewhere. Good Morning Britain will also be reportedly moving into where ITN is. So if you've been following kind of the story of an independent morning sort of breakfast news program all the way back to TV AM, I mean that era is

very much over now. Why is this happening? Well I think it's a combination of factors really. I think firstly you know there's been the rise of streaming. Ofcom do a annual report that sort of give a kind of litmus about our viewing habits. And what we've seen is two consecutive years of record fall of linear, that's sort of watching normal traditional TV in a row. But what's also noticeable is that it's not just younger people driving this change now, older viewers who have been much more used to as part of their routine watching daytime shows have been going on to streaming and catch up.

But it's also, I think, noticeable the types of shows that people are watching. I think linear traditional TV during the day, people are very accustomed to watching lifestyle programmes, property programmes and so forth. On catch up, you tend to watch maybe last night's drama, a new documentary, a reality show for example that might be in peak time. So that means that the types of shows obviously are falling out of favour are daytime. And I think also what's worth mentioning is that whilst the TV industry has had a certainly a really sort of tough sort of few years, there seems to be some sort of green shoots of recovery in terms of advertising, which of course

fuels these programs for ITV, but those are actually generally it seems to be more online growth rather than additional TV that remains sluggish. So obviously I think from ITV's perspective, they're just going where the income's coming from. Yeah, where it makes financial sense. Well, we approached ITV for a statement but not received anything yet. But earlier this week, Kevin Ligo, the managing director of ITV's media and entertainment division, said, Daytime is a really important part of what we do and these scheduling and production changes will enable us to continue to deliver and schedule providing viewers with the news debate and discussion they love from the presenters they know and trust as well

as generating savings which will allow us to reinvest across the program budget in other genres. These changes also allow us to consolidate our news operations and expand our national, international and regional news output and to build upon our proud history of trusted journalism at a time when our viewers need accurate, unbiased news coverage more than ever. Scott, what does it tell us that the shows that are bearing the brunt of this, so Loose Women and Lorraine,

are presented by women and their audiences are predominantly female? I mean I think it's certainly concerning because of course if Good Morning Britain is going to be stepping into Lorraine's slot does it mean that they'll be still be focusing on the same sorts of topics and issues or having the same range of presenters, female presenters particularly. I think also there's a concern about whether if these shows are going to be streamlined and editorially still having a independent feel, will they still be able to spend time going into important causes that you know should be as part of their program. ITV on Loose Women did a campaign recently called Facing It Together,

which was all about domestic violence. They worked with a number of charities. I watched the episodes. It was incredibly well put together and thoughtful, and created a lot of awareness and was a year-long campaign, and they ended up winning an RTS award for it. You wonder that if everything is more streamlined, would there be the resources for the production companies, for the people who make these programmes,

to spend time to work on these important issues. I think sort of public service broadcasting is still in good health generally. I think people I think sort of see this as the end of daytime TV itself. I just don't think it is. I think it's becoming much more streamlined. I think traditional TV still certainly got a place but I find find sort of daytime TV so important. I think of being an incubator of new talent. And if you see, for example, the likes of Alison Hammond, you know, they sort of shot to fame on daytime TV programs

and then moved into evening. So I worry about whether there'll be the possibilities of the next generation of talent, both in front and behind the camera, also being given that opportunity too. Yeah, I mean, we've heard that Lose Swim in the podcast might be recommissioned. It runs on YouTube and podcast platforms.

So you mentioned earlier that YouTube is where the audience is going. Female audience too, do you think that's what's going to happen? Do you think that they'll live in another life somewhere else? Certainly, I mean, I think if you look at this morning morning for example, if a moment goes viral on this morning, a celebrity interview, a cooking demonstration going wrong or so forth, you can end up having

far more viewers actually catching up online sharing it with their friends than actually people who tuned in on the actual day and I think sometimes you have these moments that are set up to help sort of capitalize on that. I think though at the end of the day our online sort of forms of sort of hits as lucrative as TV not necessarily I think also you are based on the algorithm that online platforms have so you know obviously you need to still have the viewership on daytime still coming through so I think that there's certainly questions I mean I think a lot of these I mean I hate saying this word because it can be so

blab but but I mean these are very well established brands you know loose women this morning Lorraine and they are known by millions and also at certain times they really do drive viewers Lorraine when she celebrated a special anniversary that had the highest viewership that that show has ever had during the pandemic. Daytime had a massive increase 25% as many people found them as a sort of nice sort of safe part of their routine and familiarity at a time that can feel sort of very concerning. So you would hope that they wouldn't change it too much, therefore they wouldn't be able to capitalise it on the future.

Thank you so much, Scott, for joining us to fill us in on all of that. That's TV journalist Scott Bryan. Thank you. Now Catherine Turman has been described by the FBI as an empathetic pioneer. She founded and shaped their Victim Services Division and has aided victims and families throughout major incidents from the Lockerbie bombing to the 9-11 attacks and the Las Vegas shooting. Well, a new BBC TV drama series, The Bombing of Pan Am 103 is based on the true story of the bombing of a passenger flight over the Scottish town of Lockerbie on the 21st December 1988.

The flight was en route from Heathrow to New York's JFK airport when a bomb exploded in its hold, killing 270 people, including 43 British citizens and 190 Americans. In the drama, Catherine is portrayed by Merritt Weaver. She was assistant to a federal senator at the time. She was involved in putting together an entire plan for the families of the 270 victims, and it made possible for the families to be able to view the trial, which was held under Scottish law in the Netherlands. When I spoke to Catherine earlier, I started by asking her how

she brought it all together. Well the day the two Libyans were handed over to the Scots in the Netherlands for the trial, I got called to Attorney General Janet Reno's office. She was also a great victim's advocate, but she basically said you've heard the Scots have been, you know, they now have this trial, those Libyans have been handed over, and you're going to do all the family assistance. And she made it very clear that she wanted it to be available to families of all nationalities, not just Americans. So we were lucky, we had a fund, a federal crime victims fund. It's not taxpayer money, it's money that was paid by federal offenders. There was a billion dollars in the fund. Most of it went to fund programs around the country,

but we had a pot of money for terrorism cases. So the first thing I did was meet with the team of investigators, prosecutors from the U.S. who were involved in the case. We went over to the Netherlands to see the trial site in May of 99. We went to Scotland, met with everybody who was involved, including representatives from other countries who had evidence or witnesses, and I began putting together some ideas. Along the way, I had been talking to family members, reaching out to them. As soon as they heard about us,

they started reaching out to me. They were not shy. Most of the Americans about calling and letting me know, you know, what they hope to be able to do to participate in this trial. So the first thing we did was we set up and this is back. Remember in 1999, we set up a toll free telephone line from all 21 countries into our office so that families could call free wherever they were. We had interpreters and they could also call and listen to recorded updates. I also met with the Dean of the Syracuse University Law School. They've agreed to do a family's website for us. So that became a really great venue for providing background

information on the case, biographies of all the people who are involved in the trial team on both sides, and updates just on the process and the progress of the case and the trial. And once the trial started, we were able to provide daily transcripts. The courtroom used simultaneous transcription, which I had never seen before, but had been pioneered, I think, in the Hague.

So at the end of the day, we could post, or Syracuse could post on their website the transcripts from that day. And they would also write a summary. So no matter where people lived in the world, families, they could follow the trial in almost real time. We also the families wanted what the Oklahoma City bombing families had, which was a remote broadcast back to sort of where they lived. So they could watch it live. Mm-hmm. It was easier with Oklahoma because it was such a concentrated population and location. For Lockerbie, it was a lot more challenging, but we put together a proposal for the Scottish court

to do a remote broadcast of the trial, a secure broadcast, to four sites, one in Scotland, one in London, New York City, and Washington, D.C. I was told there's no way the Scottish Court, very conservative, they'd never had a camera in a courtroom before, there's no way they will ever agree to this. We had the support right away from the Lord Advocate at the time, Lord Andrew Hardy, and the rest of the staff, so we pitched it to the court. And once we, I mentioned that for, in Oklahoma city, the remote viewing site there had been viewed as an extension of

the federal court in Denver, where the trial actually took place. So judge mage in Denver actually had a magistrate sitting in the Oklahoma remote viewing site. So once we made that option available to the Scottish court, they said, yes, we will have four remote extensions of the Scottish court in these four cities. I mean, this is a very delicate work that you do, Catherine. I mean, not you've mentioned sort of the just the simple logistics of setting this up, but you actually work with the victims, the families of the victims. So how, what impact does that have on you? And just, just, you must be hearing testimony after testimony. That must be quite harrowing.

It can be. It certainly can be. I was fairly well prepared. I think my education helped. The work I had done a volunteer, working with, you know, like a trauma hospital for kids. Help me, I had sort of a professional background and knowledge to sort of understand trauma. And I learned much more along the way. I ran the Missing Children's Program. So I spent a lot of time with families of children

who had been abducted and murdered or who were still missing. I worked with sexual assault victims, homicide victims. And I learned most of all to sort of shut up and listen to them, find out what was important to them, try to meet those needs, provide opportunities for them to get the help that was meaningful to them. But I learned a lot about the Panem 103 case, about the victims and their deaths.

And the way I coped was I was in a position to be able to do something practical and meaningful to help people. It didn't mean that there weren't days when I sat in the stairwell and cried, or when I went home and just felt overwhelmed. It's one thing when you deal with grief of one family, it's another when you see, when you're exposed to 270

victims and their families, hundreds of family members. Did I hear that you were dreaming about Lockerbie? I did, and that's not unusual. With some 9-11, I did that as well. But with Lockerbie, I did dream about them. I remember the night before the trial started, I was in the Netherlands and I was in the courtroom. I'd spent a lot of time in that courtroom before the trial started.

I was sitting there waiting for the trial to begin in my dream. I looked around and realized that the people sitting around me were the victims themselves, all 270. And I had come to know their names and their faces and a little bit about all of them and met many of their families. So when I woke up, I was crying. But at the same time, I had the sense that they were this invisible presence and reminder there of why we were there and how important it was. And I felt that every time I went and sat in that courtroom during the trial. Yeah, their presence. That what a powerful dream. And now this story has been turned

into a drama. I think we should hear a clip now. Here is your character being played by Merritt Weaver. You were here that night too? I was on duty when the plane fell so... I responded to all calls about the fallen passengers. Aye. We kept watch over him all night. Took it in turns. I hated the idea of him being out here alone, you know? I mean, I'm not daft. I know he was gone but... I just thought...

What if he was one of mine? No. I couldn't have him alone. Have Frank's family been to visit? Not yet, but we'd love to meet them. I think they'd take comfort in coming here, meeting you. One day. I hope they'd take comfort in coming here, meeting you. Wouldn't they? I hope they will. Incredibly moving. Just that short clip.

You visited Lockerbie in 1999, but you'd heard about the ladies of Lockerbie. Tell me about them and what the importance of their work was. They were remarkable and they taught me, and I think the world in some ways, that no act of kindness is too small in these kinds of tragedies. Here was this wonderful group of women who came together very practically like women do. They saw a need, they offered, they filled it, and they did it with such compassion and such care. The American families, the British families, everybody I met, all the families, almost all of them spoke of their work and what it meant to them to get back belongings of their loved ones. Not just in an evidence bag or a box, but they had been carefully cleaned and tended

to wrapped in tissue paper and often had notes of condolence in it. So I visited one family 15 years later, an American family at their home, and they still had the things from their daughter that were in that box and they talked about what it was like to receive it, the emotional impact of it, but also the comfort of knowing that loving hands had handled those things. Yeah, with care and sensitivity and thoughts. You've said that Lockerbie was a watershed case for victim services and the FBI. In what way? Well, to begin with, Lockerbie was, it happened at a time where, at least in the United States and I think around the world,

the issue of victims' rights and assistance was really sort of in an early stage. So when that happened, there was very little that existed anywhere, particularly in the United States, that could help families. So what help they found, they mostly found from each other. They had to fight for everything that they got in some days. And often they focused on advocacy, on aviation security, terrorism. Every family kind of had their own interests. So when the trial happened, it was an opportunity to really do better. And by then, at least in the United States, there was funding, there was support for them.

So what we did with Panem 103 with Lockerbie became sort of a template, not just for us, but for some other agencies and countries over time. That was, the trial ended in early 2000. Right after 9-11, I was recruited by Robert Mueller, who I had worked with. He had been the Justice Department lead on the investigation into Panem 103. When 9-11 happened, he asked me if I would come to the FBI

and set up a victim services program. So I found myself and my boxes moved over to the FBI. And it was a few blocks as far as the growth wise but it was a different world in terms of working for this high-powered law enforcement agency. And you're working with the FBI and and you know based on the work that you've done you worked in 9-11 the shooting in Las Vegas the Boston Marathon bombing what needs to happen in the immediate aftermath of a big catastrophic event like this any of these? What we found in working with different cases that they come up, including Oklahoma City and on, was that on all of the planning that crisis managers do in communities and law enforcement,

the needs of the victims pretty much were forgotten. In the United States, it was just sort of assumed that, oh, well, the Red Cross will handle that. And so the people who are responding to the event just didn't have anything in place. So the most important thing we learned is that somebody has to think about this ahead of time. It needs to be built into the planning for mass casualty response. Some agency, somebody, some network has to be assembled ahead of time with some idea of what they would be able to put in place. And while every mass casualty has its own unique circumstances and factors, there's sort of a predictability also to some of the needs.

And the first thing people realize is that if there's something that happens, families and loved ones are gonna try to get as close as possible to the event. They want information. Where is my loved one? Are they in the hospital? Where are they? And there's chaos on the ground.

So somebody needs to be working on putting together a reunification center, providing a phone number that's manned for people to call and get information for the people at the other end of the call to take their information and be able to get back to them. And then there needs to be really skilled, compassionate death notification. It may take time. There really needs to be support for families in that.

Sometimes if they have no family in town, it helps to be able to help bring their support system into them a little bit closer. And then in almost all of these incidences, we've set up, or the other communities have set up what we call family assistance centers, resilience centers. It's unlike the reunification center, which is sort of short term, the family assistance center or victim assistance center may run for weeks or several months. And it's a place where people can go get information, not have to tell their story

over and over again, but learn about what compensation is available, what other kinds of support they can get, when the bodies will be released, you know, assistance with how they're going to do that and then after that happens how their support is going to be transitioned once the Family Assistance Center is closed. Katherine, I have interviewed some very impressive women on Women's Hour. I must say the level of skill and empathy and just the ability to be able to communicate with people who have gone through the most traumatic event of their life, but also to be able to logistically pull this together and have to talk to people, usually probably the men at the top, and get the finance

in place to do this. I mean, what an incredible legacy. What an amazing achievement. You said that you wanted your life to be something other than long. When you reflect on what you've achieved during your career, how do you feel about it? You know, I feel lucky. I was always interested in public service.

The people that I admired and looked to as sort of role models were people who wanted to serve in some way. And in this day and age where public service is denigrated, where public servants are excoriated or viewed as the enemy, that was never my experience. The vast majority of people I worked with were incredibly dedicated, worked hard and sacrificed a lot. I was very fortunate to be in a position where I could make a difference and also for me where I could also make some systemic change. And I was very fortunate to have some

bosses who were incredibly supportive and who were willing to help me break barriers. And I was extremely fortunate to be able to hire a lot of really wonderful, dedicated people as well. But when I look back, I feel mainly honored that if I was able to make a contribution, and not a lot of people maybe can say that, but it's a good feeling. Catherine Turman can definitely say that and the bombing of Pan Am 103 continues on Sunday at 9 p.m. on BBC One and previous episodes are available on

BBC iPlayer. Now you are getting in touch with telling me how you remember your loved ones, some really beautiful messages coming through, the text number is 84844, dear Anita I I remember my father by drawing him over and over again, and I would recommend that method. Now, what does it mean to be a man today? We hear a lot about the pressures of boys and young men and what they're under and how many are looking to the online world or the Manosphere,

as it's sometimes called, to find answers. The Manosphere consists of online communities and influencers that promote the idea that emotional control, material wealth, physical appearance, and dominance, especially over women, are markers of male worth. According to the Movember Foundation, two-thirds of young men regularly engage with masculinity influencers online. Prompted by the drama Adolescents on Netflix, the topic has been in the news regularly in recent weeks.

Just this week, the Women and Equality Select Committee heard evidence on the Manosphere. Well, my next guest is someone with a lot of experience in this space. Will Adolfi was a dedicated follower of the Manosphere until in his mid-20s, he had a breakdown. He went offline and rebuilt his life. He's now a psychotherapist and goes to schools to speak about healthy masculinity.

Will, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. I gave an overview just then, but I think we should hear it from you. Just explain, because we talk about aspects of the Manosphere all the time on Women's Hour. What is it? Well, it's quite hard to define because it's an umbrella term used to describe a collection of spaces online. You might be talking about a forum, an influencer, and there's no criteria that says this is Manosphere. Some know, some influencers are regarded as Manosphere influencers and if you chat to them they'd be like, I'm not in the Manosphere. So it's not a centralized space online. There's no

www.manosphere.com. It is the online world and within that there are many ways of getting messaging that might be harmful but a lot of it doesn't feel harmful. A lot of it feels like self-help a lot of it feels like entertainment value jokes banter pranks gaming videos I want to look good go to the gym So it's a wide array of things but one thing I will say is that tends to tie all these spaces together is a kind of growing distrust and tribalism around woke culture or feminism. And so that tends to find its way in the messaging, whether you're looking for self-help, whether you're looking for the gym material, that messaging can be polarizing

and it can seep in. So, so the society is sort of biased against men and that woke culture and feminism is the, is sort of biased against men and that woke culture and feminism is the blame? That was my experience of it. The society is rigged against men, yeah, and that woke culture hates men and that we need to stand up against it. That was a real idea that I came across, yeah.

How did you come across it? Tell me about your... We'll talk about your story. Yeah, I came across. Yeah. How did you come across it? Tell me about your... We'll talk about your story. Yeah, sure. So the context was, you know, if I go back to school, when I was nine years old, I remember being a sensitive child. I didn't quite fit in the box. You know, I was doing ballet. I wanted to be an actor. I wrote poetry. And I was an easy target. By the time I got to 14 years old, if you look at pictures of me, you can see bravado, you can see a mask, I see it. I showed these at schools across the UK.

I unknowingly did my best to adhere to what we call the man box, which is a kind of rigid set of ideals and rules that I may feel pressure as a boy to follow in order to be a quote unquote real man. And so this started for me at school. And as I became sort of very felt felt that pressure and became so focused on matching up to the ideal, my mental health started to deteriorate when I got into my early 20s.

Where was that pressure coming from? It comes from society, it comes from the films I was watching, it comes from teachers. I'll give you an example. I could be sat, let's say, this is a generic example I use, let's say I'm sat in the living room and I'm watching an episode of East Enders with my family and there's a gay couple on the screen and they're kissing. I look at my dad and my dad does a slight non-verbal. Yeah, pulls a face. Yeah, pulls a face of disgust.

That's a message I'm receiving as a young man. What's wrong, what's right. And then I might internalize that. And so sometimes the judgment comes from myself. There's a voice in my head saying, you can't do that. You can't go there. That's wrong, that's gay, that's weak, whatever the terminology is.

And sometimes it's from people around us that we love and care about that have no idea that they're also reinforcing this culture. So internal, external. So what was your access points and just how extreme can it get because there is a spectrum of opinions? Yeah, exactly. So my access point was a mental health crisis. I was in my early 20s. I wasn't earning a lot of money. I felt isolated. I was in my room. And I was having panic attacks most days, I was having bouts of depression. And in this state of desperation, I started to come across messaging online

and offline that around male privilege, getting told I was privileged, getting told that, you know, masculinity was toxic. And then, you know, for example, I was at getting told that, you know, masculinity was toxic. And then, you know, for example, I was at a gig once and my friends and I were there and one of the lead singers shouted, men to the back, men to the back. So these are just a few experiences I was having offline. So that when I went online to search for answers, I had an influencer telling me the world hates men, which really felt true and it kind of distorted my worldview where it got painted over this whole brush, where I started to

feel that was really true, that everyone hates men, so it was an us versus them. So it was a feeling you just had inside you and then these messages were reinforcing that you were getting online, but how extreme is the spectrum? Like where did you end up? Okay, so for me I went down the anti-feminist pipeline and anti-women is a lot harder to sell than anti-feminist. So a lot of boys, they won't go near the anti-women stuff at first, but it can quite easily become that because anti-feminist, it really does seem to a lot of boys that the world hates men and that gets affirmed online. So it gets distorted, this whole worldview, like I said.

And for me, I went down that rabbit hole alongside all the self-help stuff. I was getting the guidance, which felt initially really positive. I started to live in a binary world where it really felt like there was a radical feminist on every corner waiting for me. Like the online world became my inner world and you were either on the side or you were a threat, the enemy. So it was very binary and anything, and this is really important to understand, anything that's smelt of woke, quote unquote. What does, yeah, it's just that word though. What does woke mean?

I feel like, you know, what do they mean by woke? Yeah, really good question. And I'll tell you what it felt like to me at that time. Anything that felt quote unquote progressive, anything that felt like it was politically correct, just someone talking about feminism, someone talking about it just instantly brought a reaction up within me where I was like, this doesn't include me and I was shutting down. And that gets reinforced by the messaging online. So you're right, what is woke? It's that was a question I didn't even ask myself, but I was painting the whole world as you were either onside or you were a threat. And so that was really polarizing. And it impacted my relationships at the time as well.

I'm really aware that there'll be people with who listen to the program all the time. And we have these discussions about how how we can talk to our children, particularly our young boys, about what's happening and the threat of things that they can be exposed to online. How did they get you in the first place? And then how extreme can it get? I just want to get a range of just what can happen. Let me be clear then. So there's the technology, which is an algorithm that's feeding content.

So I can go online looking for a self-help video, looking for something, and then I get fed, you know, the last stat I saw was 70% of videos that are watched are suggested videos. So the algorithm can take you on a rabbit hole. You know, if you're a 14 year old boy, you log into TikTok, within two minutes, you can see a video from Andrew Tate. And so then you're watching it for entertainment, perhaps, but it's like a form of brainwashing, because I wasn't aware of just like my psyche became a cacophony of masculinity influence of voices. And I wasn't aware that I wasn't critically thinking, because I thought I was, because the people I was listening to were advocates for critical thinking.

And it seeped its way into my psyche, and it's taken me years to kind of undo this. So it did feel severe for me, but I didn't go down the anti-women kind of road overtly. I wasn't watching anyone that was overtly misogynistic. It can still be polarizing. So you saw in adolescence, I'd say that is the most extreme, one of the most extreme expressions of what you can be radicalized online. But most of what I see at school is somewhere in the middle, you know, which is where I was And you mentioned tick-tock there and we don't have anyone here from tick-tock to respond this morning

There are many other companies across this sector to and criticism is is widespread. Um Was it actually ironically you wanting to understand how to Get a girlfriend that really pulled you into this world? Partly, yeah, and I wanted to feel better. Ultimately I wanted to feel better and the messaging was basically saying if you do these things you will feel better, right? So if you do work on yourself and go to the gym, if you do get a job and generate wealth, you will feel better. What I was learning though was how to

bolster my self-esteem and I neglected my self-worth. I'm just wondering what was going on in your real world where there was what who was there no one that you felt that you could talk to? There was anyone that you could go to to ask for help? Did you really did you understand what was happening? No, I didn't understand what was happening and in truth there was I was lucky enough to have a couple of people but I had internalized a block, a sense of shame in opening up so I just kept everything bottled up. How did you get out of it? My suffering overwhelmed my fear of change, that's what I would say. I reached a moment of crisis where I was like if I continue this is going to be an early death or a miserable life. Why?

How bad did it get? What was happening? I broke up with my partner at the time. I was off school because it was in the summer holidays. I was working at school and my brain was just eating me alive with negativity. I was stuck like bed bound, smoking 20 cigarettes a day, just couldn't function, couldn't get up, take care of myself. So it really reached a point of kind of a breakdown, what I would call a breakdown. And from that place though, of desperation, my heart broke, but it broke open. That's what I've been saying, because I suddenly realized I have to do something about this. And you found support, but I actually understand that you spoke to the very people you were

encouraged to demonize by the online influencers. Yeah, so I found a support group and it was in this non-judgmental space, which is really important that I began to express myself and what was beneath the bravado, the fear, the loneliness and yeah, my views and they were held and in expressing them outward, I started to process because I hadn't actually processed, I hadn't been having any conversations with people. This had all been going on internally and mostly in my room. And then I started to speak to other people.

I remember chatting to a woman who identified as a car carrying feminist, instantly felt really scared, was like, oh my goodness, she's going to hate me. And then we ended up chatting and I was like whoa okay she's pretty cool this is it this is very different. And now look at you Will talking to you know as a woman's hour and but actually you have your journey has taken you a long way and you're now actually in schools working with young people tell me a bit about that. I am yeah so I travel the UK delivering talks on healthy masculinity just telling my story what I got caught up online this was the I got, it felt good in the short term, it massively negatively

impacted me in the long term. But my goal now is to help boys on a roadmap to emotional maturity, so we can learn how to embody traits that we aspire to have, like confidence, like being able to speak directly, like resilience, rather than perform them. Because the cultural script that's being sold online is a performance. What advice would you give to parents? Empathy before reason. That's why I would say is that if you go to have a conversation with someone, I've found the most effective way of having that conversation is to lead with empathy, so they don't feel judged. They feel like there's

a connection there, there's no pressure. And once that connection is there, then we can jump to reason. And in reasoning, we might challenge, we might feel like we want to share our view, but without that connection, it can create defenses and it doesn't give the chance to have a kind of productive conversation. And I've seen that at the school, it's the power of this of modeling vulnerability and then opening up those conversations where boys feel like actually I want to share what I've viewed online the other day and then we can actually have a conversation about it. Yeah, giving boys the ability to be able to talk about their feelings. Thank you so much,

Will, for coming in to talk to me about this this morning. Absolute pleasure. so much Will for coming in to talk to me about this this morning. Absolute pleasure. Also we do have a statement from TikTok who said speaking to the BBC a TikTok spokesperson said start with the strongest, safest and privacy settings by default. Parents can also use our family pairing tool to manage screen time, to manage screen time, content filters and more than 115 other settings to help keep their teens safe. That was Will Adolfi sharing his story with us. And 84844 is the number to text.

I want to tell you about our very special bank holiday program coming up on Monday, all about women in farming. I escape the studio and head to a dairy farm in Devon to speak to female farmers about the reality of their lives. I also hear about a ground-breaking three-year study looking at the health and wellbeing of women in agriculture. It was a fantastic day in the beautiful Black Town Hills. You won't want to miss it. So join us on Monday at 10am on Radio 4 and of course you can listen back on BBC Sounds from Monday if you can't join us live.

Now, a cancer biology lab at the Francis Crick Institute near King's Cross Station in London has officially been named in honour of Dame Deborah James. Next month marks three years since the journalist and host of BBC's You, Me and the Big Sea podcast, Deborah James, known to many as Balel Babe, died aged only 40. Five years after being diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer. After her diagnosis, Deborah spent her days, months and years raising funds and awareness of the disease with the hope of one day helping others in the same situation as her to live longer. Well, I'm joined this morning by Michelle Mitchell, Chief Executive of Cancer Research UK to tell me about the work of the BAL-BABE Lab

and also I'm delighted to say by Heather James, that's Deborah's mom, who was fulfilling a promise to her daughter and continuing with her fundraising and awareness raising work. Heather and Michelle welcome. Thank you. Heather, you're continuing the work that Deborah started but also you're continuing kind of living up living life as she would have wanted you to, starting with the journey even the journey in this morning. Even the journey here I did one better I came on a tube on my own. Because Deborah didn't had never done that. No she would never go on a tube. So I feel quite, yeah, quite elated by that.

But yeah, I mean, it's so lovely to be able to talk about Deborah. It keeps her memory alive. And she worked so hard to raise awareness of bowel cancer and wrote down the taboo about poo. And I think, you know know that's what we have to continue and that's what I would like to continue if we could save somebody from embarrassment by going to their doctors and talking about poo then let's do it. I was wondering how long it would take before we started talking about poo I am

delighted within the first minute within within the first minute. And you are carrying on the work that Deborah began and you've learned an awful lot about bowel cancer in the year since she was first diagnosed. You said in November that something else has grown though, your grief. So how are you today? I'm okay. We have, well, I personally have ups and downs like I think we all do. I don't think grief goes away, you just learn to live with alongside it and you have to, for me, cope in mechanisms and I look at her and I think of her all the time but I'm so lucky in the memories she left and the legacy she's left and the fact we can still talk about her and everything she's done

and I feel very honored to be her mum and what she's taught me I think she taught me a lot more than what I ever taught her in her life. You said that you knew nothing about bowel cancer at the time of Deborah's diagnosis. What do you think, as maybe others can identify with at the time, what did you think? What did you know? Tiredness, don't we all put tiredness down to a young mum working, children, fitness, trying to keep fit. Yes, that is a lot of it, but the stomach pains, the blood in the poo, that is very important. And bowel habit changes. So I didn't know if, you know, if your bowel habits change go to the doctors get it checked out. And then when you went to the hospital one of the medical staff

said to you isn't it nice that your daughter's come with you because they presumed it was you. You're right when you were under chemo and how I wish it was me you know I I you would do anything to take it away from your daughter and you do feel guilty in one way, you feel guilty that you're sat there with a 35 year old young woman going through chemo when it should, you know, and I didn't know the signs of bowel cancer and I don't think it was talked about so much as it is now. Not at all. Michelle, it really, the way we talk about not just bowel cancer, I think cancer, that's Tebra's podcast, the

podcast did a huge amount. It did a huge amount and Heather you are an absolute inspiration to us all as was Deborah and we're here because of her legacy and we want to keep that message going raising awareness about the signs and symptoms of bowel cancer because it makes such a huge difference when you're diagnosed if you're diagnosed at the earliest stages of bowel cancer you've got a 90% likelihood of surviving at the latter stages it's reduced significantly to 10% so early diagnosis makes a huge difference. It will save lives.

And it will save lives, yeah. It's the third most common cancer type and cause of cancer death for women and since the early 1990s the incident rate in women aged 25 to 49 has increased almost 60 percent but it's treatable. It is and the first thing to say is over the last 50 years we've seen a doubling of bowel cancer survival so it's a story of positivity and hope. What we're seeing around the world is a worrying, alarming increase in the early onset of bowel cancer, but the Bowel Babe Fund is funding a global team to look at exactly why that is happening.

First of all, can we have a moment for the fact that it's called the Bowel Babe Fund? That would never have happened before. No, true, true. And you set out, Heather Heather to raise 250,000? I think Deborah did, yeah. Deborah set out 250,000. I didn't believe her on the 250,000. And I said, oh darling, that's a lot of money.

And to think we're now over 17 million, I think that's great, but let's make it 20. Good for you. Let's make it 25 by the end of the year. What does that say about your daughter, that she had this target of 250,000, which is a huge amount of money, and now it's at 17 million?

Oh yeah, Deborah was a force of nature, and she lived life to the full. And I think she's left that legacy, also a legacy of hope always rebellious hope and always find something positive. She was quite demanding as well though. She wouldn't give up. Even as a child if Deborah wanted something she was very demanding. We all know we got to love your daughter as well. That sort of infectious personality, that zest for life.

But when someone in a family, and we're getting lots of messages from people, by the way, because we have a call out about how people remember their loved ones, I'll read a couple out in a moment, they're very moving. But as people are very aware, when someone in a family gets sick, the attention quite rightly is to that person.

And it shifts the dynamic. You've got two other children. Yeah, you're right. And you had five years with Deborah. So I just want to know how you dealt with, as mum, how did you cope with everything that was happening within the family? Very little sleep. I also work and so fit in all in but you're right actually Trying not to let the others feel left out, but I don't think They were also very supportive of their sister. So they would take a lot of the load and sometimes When you're in a situation like that, perhaps you want to talk to your brother or sister more than your mum sometimes and so even though I was the one that went into hospital with her all the time it was lovely to see her have fun particularly when she came home to die it was

one big sleepover you know so it wasn't sad. The ending is sad. We knew what the ending would be. But you can live positively even when you know there's bad things happening. And I think, yeah, you know, Deborah was so different. And still the family were out there running the marathon for the Balboa., weren't they? Yeah, we met up in a hot London day. Yeah, so Ben and Sarah, bless for the Balbay Fund, for their sister, they ran that marathon. And yeah, they want to do it, the children want to do it, the family want to do it. And let's keep that awareness out there. I just want to read this message out from Jenny in Shropshire. She said,

the last thing my dad bought my children before he died from bowel cancer in 2020 was a butterfly habitat. Every summer we buy a pot of caterpillars and release the butterflies on the anniversary of his death at the end of July. It feels fitting that the metaphor morphis of the butterfly signals a spiritual transformation. Oh, that's lovely. Yes. Beautiful. We talk a lot about grief on the program. And I, you've spoken about it. I read about it. I read that when Deborah died, you cleaned the whole house. Isn't it a weird thing to do? No, I mean, I don't know. I don't think.

She was still led there. And I thought in one way, I knew she was then at peace and no more pain. And I just thought, no, let's clean the house and get everything clean and talking to her as I was sort of hoovering and moving stuff. And I felt relieved in one way that I didn't have to go through that sadness of seeing her cope with the pain and the dying. And I think as a mother I brought her into this world.

I'm so honored to have seen her out of it, but I wouldn't wish that on anybody to have to do that to their child. But you will, you will find the strength to do it. And we had good times. We did have a good, good old natter. Michelle, something that you know you deal with first hand, time and time again. This extraordinary amount of money that's been raised and that is continuing to be raised because you want to now get to 20 million. It is extraordinary. You know and the kind-hearted generous people, a lot of them listening to this program will have donated. Now we've got you here, what happens to that money? Where do the funds go? How is it spent?

Well we work closely with the family on ensuring that the money goes to those areas that Deborah was most passionate about in bowel cancer research, prevention, early diagnosis and personalised treatment. All of the research that's funded, whether it's the global team looking at early onset bowel cancer or new equipment at the Marsden or early diagnosis campaigns with Bowel Cancer UK, it's all peer-reviewed. We make sure it's at the highest quality and we go out, don't't we Heather and we talk about with the scientists the advancements that are being made because of this

because at the heart of it is using these funds to prevent better diagnosed and treat people with bowel cancer. And what are the other developments or the research that's nearly there for women in particular with bowel cancer? I think there's a lot of research around genetics and bowel cancer, how to prevent bowel cancer, how to identify and detect bowel cancer earlier and all of these are pushing in one direction to increase survival. Can we give us a quick overview because people will, you know, we've got an audience, can we tell them what should women be looking out for Heather what should we all be doing oh definitely check your poo and if how do we check our poo look

at it oh okay fine okay and can I just say if you get the test which is now lowered to the 50 years campaigned with dead before it didn't age please send that test back it could just save your life. So don't just put it on the bathroom cupboard and leave it. Do that test send it back it can make a big difference. And your GP wants to see you it can make a huge difference. What do you say to people Heather who are having to manage uncertainty and anxiety like going for a medical test or maybe going through what you've been through and what Debra went through.

Anxiety is a tough thing and I'm not embarrassed to say I have had panic attacks. They're not nice and an anxiety attack you think you're gonna die yourself and then I have to come to and think, what's the worst thing that can happen? I think I've gone through the worst thing. I've lost my daughter and I've done that. But your mind just gets out of control. And I think talking helps. Talking is a great help. How do you... Smashing some of the taboos, isn't it?

Yes. As well, which Deborah was amazing at. Yeah. How have you overcome the anxiety attacks and the panic attacks? Thinking more... I'm... this was meant to be and I'm meant to be helping other people out there and if I can in any sense particularly with the cancer and the awareness then I will overcome these attacks but with the help of friends talking with it and you know don't be embarrassed again to go to your doctor if you need help in that sense as well. I think so, a really important message and all the advancements that are being made and as you mentioned January the

NHS announced that the standard screening age for bowel cancer has been lowered from 54 to 50. So that's really positive. I would like to read out some of these lovely messages that are coming through because we really are inundated with people wanting to share their own experiences, if I may. So, before my father died he planted some beautiful lilies in a large pot in our garden. Since he passed eight years ago we've planted some beautiful lilies in a large pot in our garden. Since he passed eight years ago, we've nurtured the lilies and celebrate their flowering every year. We take photos of the family standing next to the lilies and spend time remembering and talking about our father and his many special qualities.

Another one here, I remember my sister by recreating the environment she loved, so I think about her whenever I go into Sally's room in my house. She loved island life, so I have palm tree wallpaper in her favorite colors pink and mint green There are the things that she collected photos and mementos everyone loved staying in Sally's room It's a light bright and pretty just like Her so the target now Heather 20 million. Oh, yeah, let's get it to 20 soon And then we cannot put we can not put it again can't we? Because it is through research isn't it that we will find better solutions and save lives. And targeted treatment for each person. Wonderful thank you so

much for coming in to speak to me Michelle Mitchell the Chief Executive of Cancer Research UK and Heather James thank you what a pleasure to have you in and thanks to all of you for your lovely messages. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast. We're not so funny people in our family. I'm Joe Dunthorne. need people. And this is Half Life. She finished her job, she dropped dead. My father finished his job, he was dead within a week. I mean, that's all quite a weird kind of story, you know.

And so we call it like the curse of this memoir. An eight-part podcast about how the past lives on inside us. I wonder how you feel after all of this. Even when we try to ignore it. All of the bombs will detonate sooner or later. Listen to Half Life on BBC Sounds.