Woman's Hour - The Nocebo effect, Women sports photographers, Parental involvement in family courts

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

We’ve heard about the placebo effect, when belief in a treatment makes us feel better, but what do you know about the nocebo effect? It’s when our negative expectations of a treatment, medicine or procedure - or even mistrust of our health care services - can actually make us feel worse. And it’s a growing area of scientific research. Professor Giuliana Mazzoni from the Department of Psychodynamics and Clinical Psychology at the University of Rome and Dr Annabel Sowemimo, NHS Consultant in Sexual & Reproductive Health tell us more. A landmark change to the Family Courts has been announced today - the court will no longer work on the presumption that having contact with both parents is in the best interest of the child. Domestic abuse campaigners have said the move will save children's lives. Nuala McGovern talks to Claire Throssel MBE, one of the campaigners who has driven this change. In October 2014, her two sons, Jack, who was 12, and Paul, who was nine, were deliberately killed by their father. He had been awarded five hours weekly access to the boys despite Claire's warnings that he was a danger to them. Earlier this month, for the first time, every match across England’s top two tiers of women’s football was photographed exclusively by female photographers. So how important is it that breakthrough moments in women's sport are captured and told through the eyes of women? We speak to Eileen Langsley, a pioneering sports photographer who has captured moments from some of the world’s biggest sporting events over the last five decades, and Morgan Harlow, who was part of the all-female photography team for the Women's Super League.Long queues for the toilets are something women are very used to, whilst often watching the men dash in and out quickly. We speak to two women who are trying to resolve this issue, Amber Probyn and Hazel McShane, who have invented flat packed ‘female urinals’. They have already been deployed at Glastonbury and the London Marathon. They've just secured almost £1m investment, enabling them to take their invention around the world.

Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem, at one of life's crossroads, or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women

sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds,

but now back to today's women's. are. Hello and welcome. Eleven years ago, my guest, Claire Thrassell, went through an unimaginable tragedy when her two children were killed by their father. Today, the government has announced it will repeal the presumption of parental involvement in family court cases. It has been called a groundbreaking change and it is in large part due to Claire's tireless campaigning. We're going to speak to Claire in just a moment who will be joined by her MP, Marie Tidball. Also, a few weeks ago, every match across England's top two tiers of women's football was photographed exclusively by female photographers. We want to know what is the playing field like when it comes to women in sports photography, we plan to find out.

And speaking of sports, one of the very few places that I don't have to queue for a loo is when I go to a men's sporting event. Everywhere else, there's usually another few minutes of my life that I will not get back, be at a bar, concert, Theatre, festival, an airport, a department store, you name it, we've all done it. And I'm wondering this morning if you have any creative solutions or perhaps funny stories on what you have done when you've hot to go, but the line is oh so long. Perhaps you've ended up in some unusual spots you'd like to share. And also, what would you like to see happen to women's public toilets to alleviate that queuing? You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Women's Hour. or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 0-3-700-100-444. Now, the good news is there are women on a mission to change the situation, at least at outdoor events for now, and they've secured almost £1 million of funding.

No mean feat when we know just how difficult it can be for women to get that support. Their story coming up. Also today, you probably know about the placebo effect, but what about the Nasebo effect? It's fascinating. We're going to hear about how our perceptions and beliefs can affect how we react to medication and treatment and also how it can impact women's health. But let me begin with the landmark change to the family courts which has been announced today. The court will no longer work on the presumption that having contact with both parents is in the best interest of the child.

Domestic abuse campaigners have said that the change will save children's lives. I'm joined by Claire Thrasel, MBE. In October 2014, her two sons, Jack, who was 12, and Paul, who was nine, were deliberately killed by their father. He had been awarded five hours weekly access to the boys, despite Claire's warnings that he was a danger to them. And I do need to warn you that you may find the following details distressing. He had lured the boys to the attic off his home to play with trains that he had bought them before setting fires around the house. Claire has been one of the campaigners who has driven this change and she joins me now.

Good morning. Good morning. I'm so glad you're here with us. I do know it's the 11th anniversary today of the death of your little boy, Paul, who was just nine at the time. Jack, who was a few years older, died a few days later.

I'm so sorry for your loss and such a difficult day. You've brought in a large photograph which we've just placed beside you in the studio Would you like to describe a Claire? So this is one of my favourite photographs and it's a photograph of when Jack did a solo in his concert. So he's in the school uniform.

He's in his band uniform and he's posing at the side, just stood and then Paul perched on the stage at the side of him and just put his hand on his shoulder as if you say, this is my big brother, took the photograph and immortalised it And then just a couple of moments later, Jack says, okay, take your hand off my shoulder now. Properly brotherly affection. And the fact it's on a music stand at the side of me is just perfect

because Jack loved music. That was his life. And he'll definitely be smiling at that this morning. He looks very like you. He does. He was. And I was so proud to be his mum. It's a privilege to have children. but they're not a God-given right

and they have their own rights and feelings and wishes and all too often they're not heard the picture is such a really how would I say a picture that would resonate with so many it is a family photograph in the school hall with some of the chairs, concert chairs behind and grabbing that very proud moment for Jack with Paul

giving his arm of support. But, you know, it's been 11 years. This has been announced today on the anniversary of the death of Paul when that horrendous tragedy occurred. And I'm just wondering how you're feeling today in the sense of all that you have achieved but on the back of such heartache.

It doesn't feel like a win. No, I'm sure. And let's face it, 67 children have done. died, it's never a win this. What it is is the government sending a clear message to everybody in the judiciary system that children's lives do matter, that their voices will be heard. I've campaigned and campaigned and there's been ups and downs on the road, but I never let go of hope. Six governments I've fought, and it's only. this government, this sixth government, that's actually taken action.

And when you say 67 children died, what do you mean, Claire? So over 30 years, women's aid have done three reports. Jack and Paul was on the second report, 19 child homicides. And they were, Jack was child 18, Paul was child 19. And in 2025 this June, we did another report, and we found, found out that 90 more children had been murdered due to a domestic abuser. So in June, we had the figures and over 30 years the family courts have failed to protect children and 67 children have died.

What had you said to the family courts and really the system around it before this tragedy occurred? I had to apply to court for an emergency residency order. and I said in that application that he was capable of killing the boys. I'd lived with him, they'd lived with him. I'd ended up being punched on my arm and thrown down the stairs with the force of it. The boys had seen that. I had to protect the boys, and many times I got in the way between the boys and him. There was a red mist in his eyes, and he was just pure evil.

There was the very first case that had been reported. The year before, the father had taken his two children to the woods in Wales and killed them and then shot himself. He was sat on the sofa and it didn't affect him at all. And he just turned around and he said, well, I understand it. Fathers aren't treated the same as mothers. And I just went cold. The fact that he couldn't process that children had been killed

and he thought that that man had a right to do that because he was their father, it just said it all and I knew that he was capable of killing them because I got in the way and took all the injuries for the boys I'd live with him and I saw the evil and the fact that there was no filter and so you voiced to anybody who would listen or wouldn't listen as the case was

of your concerns for their safety Did the court give you any reason on why they thought it was still in the best interests of your children to spend unsupervised time with their father, despite what you had told them? It's because of practice direction 12J underneath the Children's Act. And underneath there, it says judges will automatically presume it's in the child's best interest to see both parents. And I say, says who, because judges are strangers to children and to women. us, they get snapshots of children's lives, then they make a decision and those decisions are ending children's lives. They minimised the danger, they minimised everything I said. It was

either parental alienation or I was exaggerating or I was being vindictive. But I tried to protect both Kafka's and social services. I said to both, do not see him on your own because there were ladies. I said, because he will turn, he will become. nasty and aggressive and unsafe, they both ignored me and saw him on their own, and the Kafka officer was barricaded in her office by him two days before the fire. And still, that didn't change the parental supervision. Unsupervised, should I also say. Yeah, and when we went to court outside the courtroom, he had a go at me as well outside

the courtroom. We were late going into court, and still contact was granted. They knew domestic abuse was prevalent. They ordered a Section 7 report and said that KFCAS needed to complete that report. But still, unsupervised contact for five hours a week. The Kaffkass officer had said, oh, he's dangerous. I want people that's higher up than me in future meetings. Well, if she couldn't handle him and didn't feel safe, how did she think a 12- and 9-year-old felt?

and it is Paul as we were talking about today and also talking of course about Jack and it's important to say their names I know because they were referred to as child A and B for so long I do see you have tattooed their names on your chest as well of course as another reminder I want to read a little of the statement that we have from Kafka which advises the family courts

about the welfare of children and what is in the best interests of the child. They say, we welcome the government's decision announced today. The safety and welfare of every child is always and must continue to be paramount. This is the first principle of the Children Act of 1989 that holds firm today.

Children's experiences of parental separation, conflict and in the worst cases, further abuse and harm can be obscured by a legal presumption of contact. Putting children's safety at the heart of the family court proceedings that are about them is what we must and will continue to prioritise at Kafka. How does that feel hearing that now, Claire? It's a complete 360 for what they were saying 10 years ago.

They're forced to do it now because we've removed presumption of contact out of law and now they're going to have to change their practice the way that they think, the way that they treat people. I try to protect their staff. They ignored me. That's a major flaw and that's something and they definitely need to look at in-house.

Let me bring in the MP, Marie Tiddball. You are her constituent as well. You've also been campaigning for changes to the family court. What type of cases will repealing the current law effect? Morning, I just want to say, I'm so hugely proud of Claire, my constituent. She's done a phenomenal job to get us to where we are today.

And the change that we will be taking about, we'll repeal an amendment that was brought by the 2014 Children's Act, which always, which says that having both parents involved in a child's life is always prioritised over the child's safety, including where there is a known history of domestic violence. So that means in practice that the burden has been on the victims to rebut the presumption of child involvement. So in Claire's case, for example, she talked about the horrendous moment when she took the fist that was aimed at one of her sons and herself fell down the stairs and had to lay that out before the court and tell them, and the burden was on her to tell them that this

was not in the interest for her husband to have contact with her children. And the courts ignored her, Kalkas ignored her, social services ignored her. So the group, of people that will be affected by this are just those that are at risk of being murdered and homicide. It's a whole swath of children up and down this country, living in a household where there is a known domestic abuser and where the parents separate and they go to the family courts and it will mean that there's no longer that legal presumption that it's always in a child's best interest for them to have involvement with both parents. And this is really important. Not just 67 children have died. That's 67 children that we know of in the last

30 years. But we also know that around 60% of cases in the family courts involve domestic abuse. And in the nine months from April 2024, and then estimated 49% to 62% of private law, children that cases that Casca received involved over 40,000 children who will have experienced domestic abuse, and that includes physical and sexual abuse as well. So this scoops up and captures and protects those children that are at risk of that kind of abuse as well. And those numbers are staggering. I want to read a little from the Ministry of Justice.

Their statement says the repeal is a landmark moment for the family justice system and child protections, which is dedicated to Jack and Paul Thrussell, killed at the hands of their abusive father in 2014. We will legislate to repeal the presumption of parental involvement when parliamentary time allows. Now that gave me pause. When will parliamentary time allow, Marie? As soon as we possibly can, I know that Claire knows that she has a group of us in Parliament, me as her constituency MP, some phenomenal ministers at the MOJ and the Home Office, and now the Prime Minister, who will deliver this. You know, we went to meet him in Downing Street.

yesterday. When I was first standing as a candidate, I said to Claire, I will help you keep your promise to your voice, for their voices to be heard, for us to repeal this law. And we went to see the Prime Minister yesterday and he said to us that he will deliver on that promise. So this will happen as soon as parliamentary time allows. And that just means we have to wait to make sure that there's a bill that this can be put into and to draft an amendment which enables us to repeal what was done through the 2014 Children's Act. So that just means we've got to get the text of this amendment right to repeal the law, and that will happen as soon as parliamentary allows for a bill to bring this forward.

In a number of months? As soon as possible, as soon as this is in scope of a relevant bill, I know colleagues will work extremely hard to make this happen as soon as possible. And what's really key here is that under our reforms, if parents are going through the family courts and those parents can't guarantee a safe environment for their children, they should expect their involvement in that child's life to be restricted. And that's hugely significant. Let me go back to Claire. You've waited 11 years. How's your patient's threshold? I've waited 11 years I don't want to wait 11 more

but let's be honest for 30 years the family courts have let down children have failed to protect them have failed to see here believe and support them they mustn't be allowed to fail them for 30 more

and I hope it goes through as quickly as possible next year Today is the 11th anniversary of Paul and I held him in my arms as he died I made him a promise that promise Maria has taken up and has given to the Prime Minister

and the Prime Minister has promised he's going to deliver on this legislation and I have to keep that hope alive I have to keep that belief alive and I believe in this government. Marie and Sarkir and Alex and Sarah they have fought tirelessly to get this through.

As I say, this is the sixth government and the only government that's actually done something. So I'd like to say to everybody out there there's still hope if you believe in something and keep going and keep believing and sometimes good things do happen. I want to thank you so much Claire's Russell. It's quite something, the photograph that you brought in of Jack and Paul, to think of Paul would be 20 years old today. Thank you for spending such an important day with us here on Women's Hour and for telling your story. And also, I know you say it doesn't feel like a win today, but I know many people will be seeing it as that, what you've achieved for so many others. Thank you. listening to Claire right now

says a listener and I'm crying as someone whose children have suffered at the hands of the family court I'm so grateful for her strength and courage in challenging this diabolical system which has put so many children and victims of domestic abuse at risk 844 if you'd like to get in touch

and I want to thank MP Marie Tiddball as well as my guest Claire Throttle now we've heard about the placebo effect when belief in a treatment makes us feel better. What do we know about the Nisibo effect? That is when our negative expectations of a treatment, medicine or procedure,

even mistrust of our healthcare service can actually make us feel worse. There is a growing body of research in this area. And how might that affect women's healthcare? Well, I'm joined by Professor Giuliani Matzoni. She's from the Department of Psychodynamics and Clinical Psychology University of Roma La Sapienza and Dr. Annabelle

Shoe Mimo, who is an NHS doctor, a consultant, sexual and reproductive health, and the author of Divided, racism, and why we need to decolonise health care. You're both very welcome to the programme. I think Nusebo is going to be a new word for many people, Juliana. Can you explain what the Nisibo effect is? Well, good morning.

Yes, of course. I think that we all experience pain. We all experience, I don't know, for example, nausea. We all experience some detrimental percepts, some negative perceptions in our body. And part of the time these perceptions are due to drugs, for example, the active component of a drug that actually creates harm to the body to a extent. Other times, they are just effects that are due to the expectations that we have about a treatment, expectations that we have about a certain context, expectations that we will feel pain,

for example, and then we feel pain. So there is no organic cause for these health conditions, for the worsening of health conditions. It is just due to the fact that we are expecting because of some external contextual cues for some information. that we receive, that we will have some bad health experiences. So like a bad reaction or that it won't work, to put it mildly. How much peer-reviewed evidence is there to really prove that the Nasebo effect is a real thing? Oh, there is actually substantial evidence. For example, pain is a very good model for that because pain is a,

subjective perception of the state of one's organism. And the evidence is very strong that shows that when people experience pain because they expect to experience pain, not because there is a nociceptive stimulus, not because they are stung by something or they're hit by something. But this pain is a pain that comes about, to some extent, by itself, and it is due to what people expect. And the parts of the brain that are, of the nervous system, that are responsible for experiencing pain, they become more active.

So, and the evidence is really, to a certain extent, overwhelming. So it's a real effect, but it is due to a psychological component, to a psychological mechanism. What we expect that to happen in our body is what we will get, basically. It's so interesting. So, like, it's psychological and biological. at the same time in the sense the effect

there is real pain there but how it initiated or what was the catalyst could be a necebo effect. I mean some might be listening to Julianna

thinking that you are dismissing or minimizing pain that is felt at times from a necebo effect and Giuliani you look horrified

and shocked please go ahead. No no no it's not at all my intention to the contrary what I want to stress is that when people experience pain because of a noceive effect, because they are told that they

might experience pain in this specific circumstance after taking this specific drug, et cetera, they will experience real pain. The pain is real. The activation in the brain is basically the same and also in the parts of the nervous system. They are exactly the same when they experience. This is Women's Hour. Are women more vulnerable to the Nisibo effect than men? Unfortunately, yes. The answer is.

Why do you think that is? Oh, there have been a number of studies, not enough, in my opinion, to really help us understand completely the reason for that. But there is one main reason that has been pointed out, which is the fact that women are much more, much more susceptible to the context. So they take information from the context,

and the context guides their experience. They listen more to others, they trust more others, and so the information that comes from their body is determined in part by what the context tells them that they should experience. And women are also a little bit more suggestible than men and a little less in touch with their internal functioning of their body. So the interceptive experience is so interesting to me because I would think that women are more in touch with their bodies than men. I always thought exactly the same.

Okay. But everyone goes against it. And so, yes, we are a little bit more susceptible. both children are super effect. Really interesting what I'm hearing Juliana say there, Annabelle. Can we jump into that, of course, so little research really into women's health care

compared to men's, for example. But how do you see the Nasebo effect and how it can, I suppose, help or harm women's health care? Yeah, so I think it is a very, very complicated topic and I think social historical understanding is key. So first and foremost, only about one to do. 2% of all medical research focuses on sexual reproductive health. So, and when I say that, I mean how drugs and interact at certain points of your life course,

throughout the menopause, menstruation, women were only included in medical trials in 1993. And I have to stop you there because I saw that figure. I was like, hang on a second, 1993. And when I look back in the UK and the US, where of course there's been lots of clinical trials, they kind of stopped for women of childbearing age between the 70s and the 90s because of fear how it might affect some of their reproductive organs, for example,

and only came back into being in the last 30 years. Yeah, so as a research, you know, researching is very difficult, particularly around reproduction because there's lots of ethical issues, people don't want to cause harm and so forth, but it also makes our research quite stagnant So I think when we talk about Nasebo, what I see in my work, there are some areas where it's very important.

So, for example, contraception, I work a lot around that. We get a lot of people absorbing information online, increasingly, TikTok videos and so forth. And misinformation. And I see people coming to clinic. And because they've absorbed that information, it does make them feel potentially that what's happening or what they've seen happen to somebody online is now happening to them. However, I think it's really important that we caveat that we don't, there are gaps, there are gaps in our knowledge, and I'm very honest with patients that sometimes our studies are much smaller in some areas of medicine than other areas like cardiology where there's a lot more funding. Studies are huge and there are unknowns. And I think it's really important not to gaslight patients as well and say it's all in your head. You see, that's the tricky line that I see when we talk about the Nisibo effect.

because you want people to be aware, for example, that there might be misinformation or that they aren't living in a bubble in the sense that we've all this context and information all around us that we are involved in or immersed in. But you don't want people who are feeling real pain to be dismissed.

Yeah, and it's really about balance. And I think something I'm incredibly passionate about and I write about Individed, which is focused on race and health care, particular, is understanding the context that we practice medicine. So understanding that, you know, women have been excluded from trials and how that impacts the information we have, how some demographics go into consultations, they often don't feel listened to. So there was a study that came out of Sheffield University saying that black Asian minority patients are

less likely to report side effects because of discrimination in their interactions. And we've also see a massive kind of survey done with over two and a half thousand patients with the NHS Race and Health Observatory. We've talked about distrust in primary healthcare and how that also impacts people's ability to report side effects and their medical interactions. So I think also we need to break it down further because often in research, you know, all women are going to get lumped together and the experiences are actually quite different. I see quite different kind of reporting and interactions I see a lot of young women

more young women more likely well yes because of sometimes of what they consume online they might be more likely to say they'll experience side effects sometimes in relation to the medication that I give them however they also really struggle sometimes to report those side effects

because they don't have the autonomy that they may have that older patients have in their consultation but with the side effects they may have them correct Like they may feel pain or whatever that reaction may be due to the Nasebo effect. So I think Julianne's talk has touched upon this that, you know, the mind is a very powerful thing. And there is quite good evidence around that.

That when people experiencing side effects, they are very genuine. So when somebody is, it might not necessarily be the medication. So they may have headaches. They may really feel these side effects. But they're attributing to the medication. And when I have a conversation with them about what else is going on in their life, sometimes they've been evicted. They've lost their job.

And that's why they've got insomnia. It's not necessarily the medication. So you're trying to think of the person holistically. I think we saw a lot of misinformation and disinformation when it came to vaccines. What's your take on that? So again, I think this is, so we see, we still see quite a big fallout with poor vaccine uptake across the board, post-COVID. And we saw real differences of uptake across demographics, particularly quite poor among black and Asian British communities. And a lot of that is due to, as I mentioned,

distrust. But also we saw that when medical communication was better, people got more data. The uptake started to increase. So it was more a vaccine hesitancy in terms of people wanted more time to build up information and knowledge before they took it. But you talk there about a change in communication or medical advice, being more diffuse. Anything else that could combat the Nasebo effect? I think, well, I honestly do think that communication is key, but also, as I mentioned, we do need more research and people's concerns sometimes are genuine because the data that we're practising is often quite poor.

really interesting Dr. Anabel showamimo thank you so much for coming in and Professor Juliana Matzoni joining us from

Rome this morning the Nasebo effect I learned a lot I hope you did too if you want to get in touch with the programme 84844 is one way to do it

Manny if you have when it comes to finding a place to pee which we're going to talk about in a bit Ray the number of women's toilets

compared to men the disparity is shocking I've spent many an interval, desperately hoping to reach a loo with enough time to get back to my seat. Madness? Yes. There was another one I saw here. Audrey, ladies' toilet queues are especially bad at the theatre. In the intervals, yes.

My top tip is, ooh, a tip, love a tip. It's faster to pop out and go to the nearest pub. Might even have a quick one while you're there. Now, I'll come back to more of those in a moment. But before that, I want to let you know that earlier this month, for the first time, every match across England, England's top two tiers of women's football was photographed exclusively by female photographers. And while we are seeing more women making their mark in the industry, they are very much still in the minority. And as we've been covering on Women's Hour, it has been an incredible time for women's sport.

But how important is it that these breakthrough moments are captured and told through the eyes of women? Well, we have two to speak about that. Morgan Harlow was part of that all-female photography team for the Women's Super League. Eileen Langsley is a pioneering sports photographer who has captured moments from some of the world's biggest sporting events over the past five decades. Great to have both of you with us. Good morning, Eileen.

Good morning. And good morning, Morgan. Morning. Let me start with you, Morgan. You were taking photos of Leicester City and Everton, the women's football. How was that to be surrounded by women taking photographs of women? No, yeah, it was great.

We were made aware that that weekend was going to be an all-female sort of cast with the sports photographers. So it was great going into it knowing that all the games were covered by female sport photographers. So, yeah, it was lovely to just see that we're starting to make progress within what is predominantly a male-dominated industry. So it's great that we're finally getting the recognition

that we work in hard towards. How did you get into it? Sports photography. Sports photography. So I knew growing up from a young age that I was interested in photography. So I went and studied photography at university. I didn't know that it was sports that I was interested in at the time.

It wasn't until a lecturer told me to sort of hone in on what my passions were. And I have a background of swimming. I used to compete for 10 years when I was younger. So I sort of combined the two of my passions, which was sport and swimming. And it just sort of took off from there. And I really enjoyed sports photography from there on. I really enjoyed looking at some of your photographs, as I did with Eileen.

Eileen, so great to have you on. Congratulations on your stellar career. You started out in 1976. You photographed 14 Olympic Games. And Morgan talks about it being, you know, majority male. But, I mean, it was really majority male when you started off. How do you remember those early days? And just before I get on to that,

I hope you don't mind if I pay a tribute to Claire Thrasse, who was on earlier. Oh, I know. She became a carer and looked after my younger sister. Really? Yes. And she was one of the most dedicated and caring of the carers who took care of my sister. And, you know, considering what she'd been through to be able to do a job like that was pretty fantastic. So I just want to say that.

I had no idea, Eileen. I mean, I think that just gives us another insight. to Claire. You know, I saw a call today by the government a simply remarkable woman and for all that she's achieved. But isn't that amazing that behind the scenes she was doing, you know, one of the hardest jobs that there can be. And so important for a family to know that their loved one is cared for by somebody, I mean, somebody like Claire, I don't think it gets better than that. Whatever we've achieved in sport, it is as nothing as to what Claire's achieved. So I just wanted to say that. But yes, when I started out, there were very few of us. There were maybe four or five women in Britain working. I think most of them worked in football.

Rebecca Maiden worked for Press Association. We rarely saw each other. So it was quite common to go into an event and literally just be the only woman there. How were the guys? Very mixed. Some were blatantly antagonistic. Some were very supportive and some were completely indifferent and you just had to deal with what you found at the time.

I mean, some of them felt they had the right to say the most distasteful things. But, you know, you're doing the job you love. You're doing the job you want to do. You just get your head down and work at it until hopefully you earn some respect. Which, of course, you have in bucket loads. It's a beautiful piece on the BBC website, actually, if people would like to look at some of your photographs

through the ages as well, as well as on your website, of course. But, Eileen, how you got into it is really interesting. Do you want to tell our listeners about that? Yes, I mean, I trained as a PE teacher, and I taught P at secondary level for 15 years. And I'd got great goals in a number of sports. who were achieving a lot. And I wanted to inspire all the girls

and put up pictures in the changing rooms of positive images of women's sport. And I couldn't find any. So my husband said, well, why don't you get a camera and kick off and do it yourself? So I started photographing the girls and following them to national finals and athletics.

I've got a girl in British gymnastics teams. I was following her around. and I sent some images off to the local newspapers to get them some publicity and they picked up on it and said are you going to English schools athletics can you shoot all the South Yorkshire kids so it really built up from there

and little did you realise probably the career that you were about to have ahead of you you were at the inaugural Women's Rugby World Cup in 1991. We've been speaking about the women's rugby world cup so much

over the past few weeks here on Women's Hour. But what about that trajectory from then until now where you have

80,000 filling the stadium at Twickenham do you feel there is also been the leap for female photographers

in the way that there has been for female athletes? No, not as yet. It is coming. Things have been improved enormously

and it gives me a lot of pleasure to walk into an event and see young women in there that the men accept, they chat to them. None of that happened earlier on in my career. So it's taking time to get there. And you know, I looked at different figures. It can be 20%, 30%, approximately,

depending on which event, how many female photographers there are compared to the men, for example. But I'm wondering, Morgan, how is your experience? been in that male-dominated sphere. You heard how some of Eileen's early experiences were. Yes, I think that it's starting to make a big change now. It's definitely been a lot different for when I first started out. I think when I did first start out as a sports photographer,

yes, there was predominantly male photographers, but as we are going through the years, there's definitely been a shift. It's lovely to see that there's a lot more female photographers pitch side now, especially I got to photograph the Women's Rugby World Cup, So there was a good handful of female photographers there, which is amazing to see female photographers photographing female sport as well. And back to you, Eileen.

How has the way that women that are photographed within sports, playing sports, how has that changed through the years, the image of the female athlete? I think it's fair to say there's been colossal improvement in that respect. Because going back to when I was teaching, and searching for images to put on the ball, horribly sexist images. And I'd stand next to men, particularly because I've shot a lot of gymnastics, shooting the sport in a very distasteful way. In my time, I've been asked to shoot images that were going to be used

for some kind of playboy type magazine. and I refused to do it and at the time I was told that I was less of a professional that you know professionals don't make a judgment on what the client wants it's your job to go and get them

and so you respond by saying well if that's your 14 year old daughter up there on the apparatus and somebody's shooting over the legs apart how would you respond to that and I can't say I ever get a really good answer to that but things have improved proved enormously, and so many of the men now are much more aware of not shooting distasteful images.

You're 81 now, still doing what you love. Have the challenges, you've talked about, you know, there's more women there, and you see more women when you walk into that room or onto that pitch. What is the challenge that you feel you're facing now? Is it still a sense of misogyny or sexism? Not so much. do from time to time get the feeling a bit of ageism, you know, that people are looking at me and thinking, what does this old bat, you know, know about sport or whatever?

What do you do in that moment? I mean, I'd be like waving my credentials around. Don't you know who I am? I guess I've just got immune to it over the years. I have had problems, one or two recent events where I've had problems getting accreditation, problems over positions to work in. I mean, when you go to a major event, you get a lot of photographers and you know that there's a pecking order and that people from the major agencies and major newspapers are always going to get priority and you can live with that. But if you turn up to an event and see people who have no credibility in

either in sports photography or in sport getting better positions than you do it gets to be

a little bit I can I can understand that but of course you have a wealth of experience

and wisdom to share and Morgan do you have a question you'd like to ask Eileen

who is you know with this stellar career me anything actually she knows

what she's doing she's doing a great job I think a question I would say is knowing what you do now,

is there anything that you would love to give your youngest self advice on or equally those that are looking to break out into the industry as a female photographer? Is there any advice that you give to those looking to get into the industry? Yeah, I mean, looking back, I could have handled things an awful lot better. I could have probably handled things with more humour and more wit and probably being a bit more assertive, not aggressive,

but assertive. But I just hung on and hoped that my work would be what was needed for people to respect me as a colleague. I mean, it is a difficult job for women because once children come along, you know, women are faced with the fact that most sports event happened at unsocial hours in the evenings, at weekends, bank holidays, times when mothers instinctive. want to be with the children and you know you've got to be out there working so if you're with a partner you're going to need a supportive

and understanding partner so a little bit of advice there Morgan we will end on and that is Morgan Harlow who we've been speaking to also Eileen Langsley thank you so much also for joining us on Women's Hour as we talk

about women in sports photography a message from Lucy who said her industry is Motorsport, she says, there are some great female photographers and media personnel. Motorsport is changing its attitude to women with programs such as girls on track, which is about showing young women how they can get into motorsports beyond driving. So photography, perhaps also one way to go. Here's a message from Philippa.

She says, it's on toilets. It annoys me so much when I have to queue at a public loo when men are breezing past to their cueless loo. I've been tempted to do a protest pee on the floor outside. and have been close to do that accidentally in a very long queue. My idea would be to get women to design loos in a new building to level up the situation. I can hear people shouting here, here, all across the nation. Let me bring in my next guests who have thought about this, long and hard. We have Amber Probin and Hazel McShane.

They are two women that are on a mission to resolve the issue. they invented flat-packed female urinals called P-Quil, P-E-E-E-Kul, got it, which have already been deployed at 25 events this year, including Glastonbury and the London Marathon, and they've just secured nearly a million pounds in investment to help them expand their business. You might remember they were on with this a few years ago on Women's Hour, but this investment, it's a game changer perhaps.

Let's go back, though, Hazel, for those not familiar, We have to describe what it is you have created. Sure. Well, PICRA is the UK's first squat and go women's urinal. It's fully private from the waist down. And when you squat, it's kind of like a wee in the woods, but it's in a safe, hygienic, enclosed space. There's no blue-fush chemical.

It's just basically peeing into a no splashback pedestal. It's 2.7 times faster to use in a regular toilet. That's the key thing. You just get, you pee, get back on with your day. So your feet are on the ground. There's a hole in the ground. There's a bar opposite that you're holding on to while you kind of manage the rest of yourself. When you stand back up, you're over a partition, like think of an open plan office sort of thing.

And it's bright colours. But Amber, this is just outside that they can be used at the moment, correct? That's right. At the moment, we're focusing on outdoor events. That could be festivals, that could be running events. We're also looking at stadiums and aircraft. events, but anywhere where people gather, women have to queue. So we're really passionate about saving women their time and giving their time back to them.

So, yeah, we see people being relevant everywhere. And we do get people coming back to us saying, what about the built environment? What about this and that and shopping malls and airports? And so, yeah, it's definitely a problem we see in the world. But we're starting with outdoor temporary events and then we'll see what the future holds. Okay, well, you've got £925,000 to play with. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

Amber, what's that going to go into? So we're so excited because this means that we can fulfill our international demand as well as UK demand. So we get a lot of events coming to us and they have the same dates and we don't have enough stock to actually supply to both events. So we have to say no. And that pains us because that means women don't have equal access to infrastructure or toilets. So this will enable us to have more stock. But not only that, the stock has been iterated. to be even better than the last.

So it's even more efficient and even better for logistics. And that's what we're really passionate about. Who gave you the money, Hazel? Oh, wow. So we have a killer team of angel investors, funds, a family office, loads and loads of female investors,

women that have built their own businesses and wanting to give back to female founded companies. Because we hear, and you will have heard a million times, you know, that it's just 2% of investment funds that goes to women-led businesses. So, you know, you're in the minority there,

and I was just wondering of who was behind the cold hard cash. Oh, yeah. It's actually got, unfortunately, worse than 2% since COVID. But we've got an industry expert, Emma Banks, joining us. We have Julia Davis, who founded an off-spray. We've basically just got women in the industry backing us because either they've experienced the problem at events. One of our investors tried us at London Marathon

and thought we need this everywhere. A lot of messages. I'm just going to go through a couple of them here. All public toilets should be unisex. As long as toilets are behind closed doors, what's the problem? I don't have an issue washing my hands next to a man. Another, I was both recently in Copenhagen

and in Stockholm attending concerts. Everyone cues for the same toilet with floor to ceiling partitioning. It feels egalitarian. Another, seeing a show and bat, the cue for the ladies, was three times around the lobby. I used the gents off the two men in there. one was my boyfriend

and the other didn't Matt and I I've never understood why all the other women were queuing and one more in Mongolia women are entitled to use the men's toilets

if there's a cue in the women's you may need to hold your nose men's toilets can be smelly but it might be worth it so some there but I do have another question because you know you need to be a little bit

limber to squat down and hop back up holding on to the handrail what about for others that perhaps aren't as mobile for whatever reason So we have got that handle and we have designed it to be

comfortable for all squat heights if you have a higher squat or a lower squat. However, we see Pekel as a fast track lane. So just like male urinales, Pekul is that equivalent. So it's not like we're replacing the standard offering it is we are as well as. So it's for the 90% of women

that just need a quick way. So it benefits both cues. If you need 100% privacy, if you need a bit more time and space, you can queue in that other portable toilet queue, that's absolutely fine. Exactly, and it is shorter. So, yeah, we're the 90% of women that just need to pee and want to get back to their event.

I'm wondering, you know, like, I think it was a weekend in Soho, which isn't too far from here. I was heading back on a Friday. And all of a sudden I saw all these male urinals being put up on the streets, you know, like these big kind of trucks coming along and setting them up all over the place and then I guess they take them away Saturday morning or Sunday night, whatever it might be. Is there anything like that that you can do on nights out in cities?

100%. It's another reason why we built peak rule. We would be on a night out and see those male irons. And women often, we all need to pee. So if, say, the clubs or pubs are shut, you sneak away to a private spot to pee. And it's so dangerous. We need the same infrastructure that's safe, well lit, just like men have.

But it's not there yet. Well, we are hoping to do some trials next year. So we already are chatting to Soho Council about this. It's something that we want to pick back up and, yeah, do a trial in 2026. And so we can hopefully get into many boroughs in London. Yeah, really exciting opportunity. Yeah, hopefully next time you're out, we'll be there. Yeah.

I suppose, though, it's one thing in a festival where it's just in one area that's kind of sectioned off for women's toilets. Maybe it's different when it's on a city street. I really hear you. working with, I think they're called Nighttime Angels. So volunteers that want to make the streets of Soho a safer place. The rainy night

in Soho. Hazel McShane Amber Probin, thank you both so much for joining us and congratulations on your investment. Sophie says I tried the Pekyll at a couple of festivals. They're amazing, but I'm in my 50s. I can't squat for that long. Listen to this, ladies. So I could only use it a couple of times as my

knees got sore. Would a back that you can lean on also be possible and giving you lots of ideas here. Tomorrow, Anita will be speaking to Amy Wallace, the co-writer with Virginia Jew Frey, on her posthumously published memoir, Nobody's Girl. Of course, you will have heard about that during this week. Also, the Health Secretary, West Streeting, so don't miss that. Thank you very much for your company this morning. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The figure's face was featureless and its entire body was jet,

black. I'm Danny Robbins, and throughout October, I will be sharing uncanny listeners, real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous black triangle, floating silently, over the rooftop. Join me as uncanny Countdown to Halloween every day in

October on BBC Sounds.