Woman's Hour - The only woman in a group of men, Children conceived by donors, Finding My Voice, Face masks

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

What is it like to be the only woman in a group of men? Is it isolating? Intimidating? Or, can there be a certain, maybe shameful, thrill of being included as ‘one of the lads’? To discuss, Nuala speaks to Immy Humes, a documentary filmmaker who has spent years gathering archive images of all-male groups including exactly one woman, which she published as a collection in her book ‘The Only Woman’. They are also joined by Emma John, a sports journalist and author of ‘Self Contained’, her memoir of single life. She’s spent her career covering cricket and rugby, often as ‘the only woman’ surrounded by male friends and colleagues.This year in the UK children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who turn 18 will be able to request information that identifies their donor. This includes the donor’s name, birth name, date of birth and address, as long as the information is on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority’s register. It’s a result of a change in the law in April 2005 meaning that the first of those children conceived after the law changed will have their 18th birthdays this year. Nuala discusses the implications for donors, children conceived by donor as well as their families, with Clare Ettinghausen, Director of Strategy & Corporate Affairs at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, the UK’s Fertility Regulator. And Nina Barnsley Director of the Donor Conception Network which is a UK based charity supporting donor conception families.Figures from the Office of National Statistics show that 1 in 45 people in England have covid – and the UK Health Security Agency are now advising people to wear face masks if they are ill and need to leave the house, and to keep ill children home from school. So what does this mean? Are we going to get back to wearing face masks everywhere? Nuala McGovern speaks to the Times Science Editor Tom Whipple to get the latest on the situation, and government covid advisor Professor Susan Michie to hear how we should be changing our behaviour. In our series Finding My Voice we’re talking to women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. Nuala speaks to Shekeila Scarlet. She was excluded from school when she was just 12 years old. After an appeal process that eventually reversed the decision, she was reinstated at the school. But seeing her case debated by a board of governors made her realise the importance of having young people involved in school governance. At 26, she’s now the Chair of Governors at Stoke Newington School in Hackney, making her one of the youngest chairs of a school governing board in the UK.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer : Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. If you were taking a look at the papers earlier, you can't miss masks. The Times editorial is calling for people to wear them to reduce pressure on the NHS. This is as a new Omicron variant makes itself known. It's XBB15. It echoes, however, that editorial,

the advice given by Professor Susan Hopkins. She's at the UK Health Security Agency saying if you feel unwell, use a face covering. The Health Secretary has claimed COVID, flu

and also actually strep A are at the root of the problems facing the NHS. Now, some don't agree with that, but those illnesses are at a high level. If I turn to the Daily Mail front page instead, it's quoting a Tory MP, Sir Desmond Swain, who says not to return to face mask madness. Try saying that quickly. So where do you stand when it comes to masks now?

Do you carry one with you? Do you wear one? Or did you just throw them all out when they weren't compulsory now? Do you carry one with you? Do you wear one? Or did you just throw them all out when they weren't compulsory anymore? Maybe you never wore one. Apparently, women are more risk averse than men. So I'm wondering, does that describe you? Does it play into your decision? I'm keen to hear your thoughts. I'll give you the ways to get in touch in just a moment. But some other stories we're covering. 18 years ago, a law was changed in the UK that will come into effect this year. So children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who

turn 18 this year will now be able to request information that identifies their donor. Now, this can have wide ranging implications for the donors, the children conceived by donors, as well as their family. So we're going to discuss that at length. And have you ever been the only woman in the room? How did you end up there? How did it make you feel? Did you like being one of the lads? Well, these are just some of the questions we're going to explore with my guests

who have been looking at that particular dynamic, both now and also in the past. And we also have the next edition of Finding My Voice. I'm looking forward to speaking to Shaquilla Scarlett who at 12 was excluded from school but now is one of the youngest chairs of school governors at just 26. Looking forward to hearing about her

life. So you can text the programme the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can also email us through our website. WhatsApp message or voice note, the number for that is 03700 100 444 and data charges may apply depending on your provider.

So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And the terms and conditions for all of that can be found on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And the terms and conditions for all of that can be found on our website. I can see the texts are coming in already en masse. Let me see, here's one from Lizzie. Amanda Evans is her name, under the name of Lizzie. I have a drawer full of masks and if I have to wear one again

and it looks like it may be a good idea, I will keep them coming and I will pepper them in throughout the programme. But, you know, maybe it's, is it down at the bottom of your bag? A mask maybe? Dust it off? Does that work? A mask that's been there since last year? Well, the figures from the ONS, the Office for National Statistics, they show that in England, one in 45 people have COVID.

That goes up to one in 40 in Scotland, one in 55 in Wales and one in 50 in Northern Ireland. Research conducted during the pandemic showed that women were two times more likely to wear a face mask than men. Women are statistically more

risk-averse than men. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that. Joining me are Tom Whipple, he's Science Editor at The Times and Professor Susan Mitchie, director for the Centre for Behaviour Change and part of the behavioural science group within Independence Age. Let me start with you, Tom.

You know, I'm throwing out some of those figures there, the one in 40 or one in 45. Is it concerning? I mean, it is and it isn't. In a sense, you'd say this is the end game um we knew this was going to become endemic um and when it becomes endemic a lot of us are going to be infected every year and we're particularly going to be the case uh during the winter um if we'd seen these figures at the height of the pandemic it would have been know, a reason for instigating lockdown. It's absolutely

massive numbers. Now, we are seeing real problems with the NHS. And to an extent, the proximate cause of those problems is COVID and indeed flu, which is now, you know, as big a problem. But obviously, there are also, you know, structural, significant structural problems in the NHS that mean that this is just the one of the straws on the camel's back. But you think it would have instigated lockdowns previously? I mean, it did. Were they the figures you think I would remember specifically from what it was at the height of lockdown? Yeah, I mean, before we had vaccines, before we had a lot of people who had already been infected, we were looking at the infection fatality rate of between a half and one percent.

So, you know, between that proportion of people you'd expect to die. Now, that's, you know, far less than the tenth of that. You know, we're talking far fewer than one in a thousand. And that's why we can get by with these numbers, because if it's going to become endemic, then we will expect every few years each one of us is going to be infected. And what you don't want is for that to precipitate the entire collapse of the NHS, as was threatened during COVID. But I wonder, do you think that figure is accurate? And I'm going to put my hand up here, that I have not tested for COVID in quite a while, and I don't think I'm alone.

It is accurate, because for precisely the reason that randomly oh that testing people when they turn up to get tested is not going to give us true figures it comes from the office for national statistics who thankfully have kept up their infection survey where they test about a thousand hundred thousand people a week for covid and hopefully moving into testing for other things as well. Other things. A sort of opinion poll of viruses. It'd be nice to get it so that we can see genuinely what's happening with flu. Because until now, we really don't know the dynamics of flu. We know the dynamics of COVID better than any other virus that's ever existed, pretty much, because of all of this testing.

We've never done things like that. We don't know how often people get flu during a year, during the course of their lives. We only see them when they turn up to hospital. I mentioned the UK Health Security Agency issuing guidance, telling people to wear masks as they feel unwell.

I have to say so much reaction already. We're only on air, what? A couple of minutes. I've always got a mask in my handbag, says Michelle. Sometimes you notice a large horde of coughing people when out and about. Don't want to be in the middle of it. Let me see, who's this? Jackie, I think wearing a mask if you're feeling unwell is the least you can do to protect others. Ideally,

you should not be out. I think women are more likely to wear masks because they're far, far more socially aware. We'll get into that in a moment. But I'm curious, you, Tom, are you wearing a mask now? I am not wearing a mask, but I'm also not surrounded by lots of people. I don't think we're going to get, I mean, you know, one reaction to Susan Hopkins's statement is the Desmond Twain reaction, which is it is a return to mask madness. Another is that, you know, as one of your listeners pointed out, it is sort of, you shouldn't really be going into the office anyway. But if you are, it is sort of the equivalent of putting your going into the office anyway um but if you are it is sort of the equivalent of putting your hand over your mouth when you sneeze but of course masks have gone now from being a medical intervention to a political statement uh and on both sides you know

you get people saying treating them a bit like a panacea and people saying that they're completely useless face nappies and you know the, the truth is the evidence base for them as being a sort of fantastic population intervention isn't there, but they do make a difference. And particularly if you're the one who is spreading all of the dodgy aerosols and droplets containing COVID or flu or whatever.

OK, well, hold that thought, Tom, because I want to bring in Professor Susan Mitchie. Welcome, Susan. You know, I'm fascinated by this. It was researched by the London Metropolitan University last year that stated that men were, they were two times more likely, men were two times more likely than women to refuse to wear a mask. Why is that? Well, one of the reasons is that there's quite a lot of evidence showing that women are more health conscious than men.

They take more steps to prevent ill health and they also are more likely to seek help when they are ill. And actually, I was part of a study in 2009 when there was the H1N1 pandemic. And we looked at people going into motorway toilets and the extent to which they wash their hands with soap or not and we looked at the ratio of those in women's toilets and men's and women's were about twice as high as men's so it's a it's quite a universal finding yes I did was in a woman's toilet recently where the woman did not wash her hands afterwards. I was horrified. I'll be totally honest about that. They're not perfect, but men were even worse. I was like, maybe she's got some hand sanitiser in her bag. Who knows?

But what about that point that Jackie, our listener, was bringing up there, talking about this social responsibility that she feels women have and men do not? Is that a bit harsh? Well, I don't know the data on social responsibility, women versus men, but obviously it's an incredibly important value to have, especially at the moment. And in relation to this discussion on face masks, this is only one of a whole lot of different types of interventions and measures that people can be taking to keep themselves and their communities safe. And actually, the behavioral

science group of SAGE that I was on, also on independent SAGE, they published a paper. In fact, the final paper they published was about how can we support the population moving from a rules-based approach to all this sort of thing to a risk assessment and risk management approach. So the key thing is to manage, well, to first of all know which of the situations that are risky, that are most likely to have virus in them, whether it's COVID or flu or anything else, and then what steps you can do to manage them. And really, you only have to wear a mask when the air quality is likely to be really poor. And we should take more steps

to ensure that we've all got safe air to begin with. I would just add one thing, actually. It's so important that if people are wearing masks, they wear the tightly fitting mask. So talk us through that. You know, actually, there was one comment I got here. I don't have the name. Cotton masks only for me.

I can't cope with the environmental damage caused by blue disposable ones. So that's his or her reason. But for example, there are lots of different types of masks. I remember at the time, what was the FP3

that people were talking about? And there were also, you know, there was the blue surgical masks, of course. This is the variant that many people have been talking about over the past few days, an Omicron variant, XBB15. Does this require something specific? I don't know any information that XBB1.5 requires something more specific than the other Omicron variants. But certainly the original masks, those blue surgical masks that still get handed out in hospitals, although they made a difference with the original strains, with Omicron,

they're just not sufficient. You need a tightly fitting mask that goes you know right around your your nose your cheeks under your chin and yes ffp2 and ffp3 are two that you can buy that are like that if people do want to wear reusable ones the key thing is to make sure there's the several layers and that it does go tightly around your face well the thing is and here's Chrissie for example, she says, I always have one in my pocket for buses to tube crowded indoor spaces. Puddles, who's John, says,

I still wear one in supermarkets and large stores. Hardly any of us left. He's talking about people wearing masks. But really, that one that I have shoved down in my bag, I mean,

is that really helpful? Because I remember at the beginning, it was like, don't even touch it. Take it off gently you know it could have COVID on it. Well that was in the days when we didn't know the main routes of transmission and thought it might be from touching surfaces but now we know that a

major route of transmission is what's called aerosol these tiny droplets that can stay in the air for a long long time So in terms of the masks, really helpful to have one in your pocket or your bag. You know, when you leave the house in the morning, make sure you've got your keys, your phone, and that you've got a mask so that if you do find yourself in crowded indoor spaces with an adequate ventilation, yes, you can put it on. And I think for those people, including myself,

who's still wearing them in shops and in public transport, that's showing concern and social responsibility. But for people who work there, you know, people who are driving the buses, working shops, they don't have any possibility of not working there. So I feel the least we can do is we're not just protecting ourselves, but we're protecting other people also. Tom, the variant XBB1.5, I guess it is, is that the one that is causing people concern at the moment? I mean, it is if you're amongst a slightly sort of geeky community of variant watchers. And that is one that seems to be out competing in in various countries it's still a sub-variant of omicron which means that the the virus hasn't made a some kind of huge shift as it did with delta with alpha with omicron and i haven't seen anything to indicate that

we're any less uh you know notably less susceptible to severe disease with it. I think there's, it's important to keep track and to note variants as we've seen in the pandemic, you know, our entire pandemic can swerve because of a variant. But equally, I think it's important for those who aren't in the genomics community to maybe not pay that too much attention to each individual change in each individual version of Omicron. Susan, let me come back to you. I want to turn to a point that you alluded to there

about risk and, you know, public instead perhaps making their own decisions about how risky a certain behaviour is. Talk to us when it comes to gender. In terms of people perceiving risk differently, or managing risk differently, I think it's, I don't know the data on gender specifically, but it's not just men versus women. It's also younger people versus older people.

It depends on people's occupation to the extent to which they're aware. But I think the key thing at the moment is to ensure that the whole population gets educated about what is a risky and less risky place. So that, for instance, if you go into a public place where windows are shut, the ceiling's low, there's a big density of people, they're shouting or singing or whatever, that's highly risky. But a lot of people don't know the principles, you know, the ratio of how many people to the amount of air, that if people are talking loudly or singing, that's spraying out virus much more than if they're not. And even things like if you do go to a dentist appointment or hair appointment or whatever, do it early in the day if you can, because the aerosols can hang around for many, many hours in the air. This is fascinating. Hang on. Let's let's explore this a little bit more.

If you're going into any place that might potentially be crowded or have a lot of people go through it in the day get there first well as close to first if you think about like one in 45 people have covid now hopefully a lot of those people will be at home but even if one in a hundred people are going into um a busy place over a long period of time there's likely to be somebody who's been infectious. And actually, I should add that it's not just enough to wear masks when you feel ill, because 40% of people who have COVID don't have symptoms. So it's much more about, you know, doing it in situations where it's risky, because you can't guarantee good air quality um but going back to the other point about um you know thinking about when is likely to be least risky the less people have been in an in a space over a period of time the less risky will it will be so if you go um for example if

you want to meet somebody for a drink if you go early in the evening rather than right at the end there'll have been many fewer people in a bar so it's just thinking through the principles of the number of people in how big a space for how long how much ventilation and what are those people doing in terms of are they quiet or are they shouting and singing these are the kind of things that people need to think about when thinking how risky is this? And do I want to put myself at risk? And if it's a situation where it's easy to wear a mask, why not?

Do you wear a mask? I do. In shops, I wear it in shops and I wear it on public transport. And if there's a situation where I feel this place isn't well ventilated, it feels stuffy to me, then I'll put on a mask. But I only wear it when I think it's a risky situation. And when, like now, there's quite a high rate of transmission and other viruses around.

Yes, indeed. It also protects against other viruses. So interesting. Our listeners think so too. A lot of them getting in touch about whether they're wearing a mask or not. Professor Susan Mitchie, thanks so much. We also had Tom Whipple.

Thanks, Tom, for starting us off this morning. If you do want to get in touch, of course, we'd love to hear from you. And you can continue to do that throughout the programme. Masks is just one of the issues. 84844 is the text number. Let me see one more.

I'm quite happy to wear a mask. I still do in certain situations, such as public transport and supermarkets. I think that's a theme coming out. I use a reusable FFP2 or a double mask with cloth masks. I always do a test before meeting friends, going to the theatre. Some male friends think I am mad on both accounts,

but my female friends all get it. And that's Valerie, who is very conscious, shall we say, about the certain situations. Keep them coming in. Let us know exactly how you're feeling about it. Right. I want to move on to Finding My Voice, our series. Maybe you've heard some of the women

who have been sharing their stories with us. We talk to women about the moment when they realised they had something to say. Now, Shaquille Scarlett was excluded from school when she was just 12. After an appeal process, that eventually was reversed, that decision, and she was reinstated at the school.

But her case debated by a board of governors made her realise the importance of having young people involved in school governance. She's 26 now and she's also the chair of governors at Stoke Newington School in Hackney, making her one of the youngest chairs

of a school governing board in the UK. Shakila, welcome to the programme. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Lovely to have you and congratulations too. Thank you. It you for having me. Lovely to have you and congratulations too. Thank you. It's been an interesting journey to say the least. I want to hear that journey for our listeners.

So I just mentioned there that you were excluded and reinstated at 12. When I mentioned that, what do you remember about that time? It was an interesting time so I was excluded for a situation where my bully, school bully had threatened me to do something and I did it bearing in mind the school was aware that I was being bullied and as a result of that sort of my name came up and then I was involved in sort of a permanent exclusion and that time was quite dark it was very dark I'm 12 years old not really understanding that the education system still quite fresh and being excluded sort of then referred to a pupil referral unit which I would have only been the

only girl so thank god my mum didn't put me there. But in trying to sort of navigate that system, it was difficult, very, very difficult. I come from a working class background. I grew up in Hackney. So, you know, the strengths of the education system weren't around us. My mum had to go and find people

who could actually support us. She got me an advocate, so someone that could actually advocate on our behalf. And that was really helpful, actually, in the process of getting back into school. And I guess the whole appeal process, it was difficult. I was out of school for two months. and the process meant that I had to sort of go and appeal my case to the school governors at the time. I have to I have to stop you for a second there because just even saying that Shaquille I'm thinking of this little 12 year old girl opposite is it a table of governors I don't know you tell me. Literally it's opposite it's kind of like a semi-circle round table type thing and I'm

leading with them please allow me back into school because I was you know excluded for something that um I couldn't help but do because you know my school bully was bullying me and if and if prior experience had shown me anything it was like if I don't do it he's gonna hurt me and um you know it was quite interesting to see how that all played out because actually further down the line I was made aware that you know I was excluded to be made an example of not actually because you know I actually did anything actively wrong myself. And your opposite this board of governors the appeal did work and you got in, but you decided at some point to try and perhaps change

what that board of governors looked like for the kid opposite that semicircle table. Tell me about that. How did you get involved? I mean, I'm just thinking you might at 12 or 13 be forgiven if you wanted nothing to do with a board of governors again. I think for me, so it was the whole appeal process and knowing that the governors that were sitting opposite me didn't look like me.

They didn't come from the background I came from. There was no relatableness. And actually, that was the sort of catalyst for saying, actually, I want to change something in this world. And I want to be that change so at what age were you then um I got back into school when I was 12 so um but I think the first time I recognized it was when I was 13 and actually started getting involved in different programs because actually once I was reinstated in school I got involved with an organization called immediate theater which I am now actually chair of trustees for, so it's a full circle moment, actually, and they sort of helped bring up, because I lost a lot of confidence being out of education for so

long, because the times and the trends changed so quickly, and being a part of Immediate Theatre allowed me to grow my confidence, and actually, you know, have some form of personality and drive and passion. And actually, that's something we do with young people now. They do social action. And my social action essentially was to, you know, make sure that there wasn't another, there isn't going to be another student like me who sat in front of a governing body that didn't reflect them. So you have these young people, you were helping them begin working as governors in schools. You become a chair of governors at the age of 26. What do you think a 12-year-old Shakila would say to this chair now of school governors?

I think it would be a case of, I can't believe you did it. Like, I can't believe you did it. I think that's one thing that I've been so proud to be able to do. Like, every time I've set my mind to do something, I've always done it. As part of my journey to sort of get to this point, I was involved in Hackney Young Futures Commission

with Hackney Council, as well as doing other projects and stuff. And actually, as part of that project with Hackney Council, I as doing other projects and stuff and actually as part of that project with Hackney Council I set up a young governing program in Hackney with Hackney Education to get young governors on boards as associates and actually as part of that process I set it up, I participated and then I was co-opted as a governor and then subsequently within the year I was made chair and I'm so excited to be able to sort of be in that position where I can work with my head teacher and my governors to reduce exclusions and make sure that our students know who we are that's really important as well to me because actually in sort of one of the events I attended

we went to we took some young people there and actually we had a student sitting next to her chair of governors, and she didn't know who she was, and I think that's really ridiculous, personally, because actually governors are the sort of legal key holders for the school, and actually for students to not know who they are, I think it's just, it's silly. And I've been so prominent in trying to, you know, be present and be visible within school over the first time last year. And actually that's been so, it's been so nice because actually people recognise me.

And yeah, working with my head teacher has been incredible. And how about when you're working as that person that you faced in the sense of you have a little kid, opposite you maybe, that faces the threat of being excluded? I think for me, it's the younger understanding. So the percentage of governors who are under the age of 30 is like less than two percent and actually I'm a lot closer to the education system experience than you know 75 percent of governors who sit on current governing bodies and actually having an understanding of what's going on in the world you know being in touch with the cool kids as someone would someone said it to me the other day but actually you know understanding what's

going on in the world understanding what the education system is like and currently like and actually taking into account all of these things that have been happening with in the world like COVID that has a major impact on students and student behaviour, as well as just trying to understand that, you know, we instead of sitting down and talking about and talk about, we need to be solution focused in these sort of environments. We can't just, you know, talk and talk and talk and nothing gets done. Too often that's the case. Well, you obviously have done so much. You know, I was so interested to read that you feel, I don't know whether you you still do anymore but that you did suffer from imposter syndrome which I think lots of people will identify with and I find that difficult of course speaking to you as such a confident 26 year old

woman as you are but I wonder you know as you find your voice what you might say to others who perhaps you know have that sense of imposter syndrome or that they're somewhere that they shouldn't be? I still do suffer sometimes. I think for me, it's just about understanding that, you know what, you are at this table for a reason. And, you know, if you want to make some change, you've got to sit in certain tables or certain spaces in order to make that change.

And I think for me, every time I sort of get a bit of worry, like, oh my God, am I really doing this? I literally go back to that thought of, you deserve to be here. You want to be the change you've got to see in the world. So sit at this table and own it. And I think that's really my sort of mantra for this year going forward.

Oh, okay. We shall take that mantra on. Thank you so much for spending time with us. That is Shakquille Scarlett one of the youngest chairs of the school governor's board

and telling us a little bit about her story and about finding her voice. You are listening to Woman's Hour. You can text us

844 844 844 did I give that correctly? 844 844 text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for exact costs.

On social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or you can indeed email us through our website. I just want to take a look here. They're still coming in about masks. I was in London last week and wore a mask on the tube. Only a few others, equally middle-aged women like me, hot them on because we're talking about perhaps there's a difference between the way men and women wear masks, you might

have heard. I have a family. Work is demanding full-time job. I'm the sole carer for my elderly mum, so my mask is as much for her sake as for my own and that is Laura getting in touch from Scotland. Thanks for getting in touch. I don't have a name on this one, but it says I find the wearing of face masks

offensive and refuse to wear them. Absolutely hysterical behaviour, says that person who got in touch via text. And yes, I still wear my mask on public transport and public settings. It's a simple thing to do

to help save lives. So keep them coming on that or any of the other stories that you're hearing, perhaps like the next one. So this year in the UK, children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who turn 18 will be able to request information that identifies their donor. So this includes the donor's name, birth name, date of birth, address,

as long as that information is on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authorities Register. So you probably know that also called the HFEA. It's a result of a change in the law. This is in April 2005, meaning that the first of those children that were conceived after the law changed will have their 18th birthdays this year. And with me to discuss the implications for donors, also the children, of course, conceived by donors and their families are Clare Ettinghousing, Director of Strategy and Corporate Affairs at the HFEA and the UK, which is the UK's fertility regulator, as you may know, and Nina Barnsley, who's Director of the

Donor Conception Network, or DCN, which is a UK-based charity supporting donor conception families. You're both so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Well, let me start with you, Clare, because I think many of us won't remember. When that law changed in 2005 to end the anonymity of donors, why was that? There was a move at the time that it was felt that those children born from donation had a right to access information about their genetic heritage. So that law was changed, as you say, in 2005. And anyone born from donation from a donor after April 2005 can apply later this year when they turn 18 to access that information. So it's really felt that those

children who are born from sperm or egg or embryo donation, have a right to the information to find out about anything related to their genetic heritage. And we're really looking forward to welcoming those applications later in the year with both excitement and trepidation. Excitement and trepidation. Let me throw that over to you, Nina. I mean, what are you expecting? Because you're really working with the families that have gone through this process. Yeah, exactly. So our charity supports anyone who's thinking about using a donor or has used a donor. And so we've already experienced families where they've connected with half siblings or children.

I'm calling them children, they're adults who may have already connected with their donor through maybe another route. So not through the formal HFEA route, but through other routes like home DNA testing or sometimes just accidental disclosure. So we've already sort of seen the ramifications of that. And certainly over the last 30 years, DCN has, you know, we were founded on a principle of openness. So the first thing probably to say is that this only really applies if children actually know that they are donor conceived. And so there is another element to this, to the story, that can be quite challenging.

You know, I hadn't thought about that, if I'm completely honest, because I'm thinking that this information is all available. of course the child at the centre of this may not know they're donor conceived. Absolutely and probably Nina will say more about how encouraging families to be open from the beginning with donor conceived children. Yes absolutely I mean that's our sort of bread and butter as a charity so GCN has a whole range of resources and support services to help people with thinking through how to be open. And when do you advise people to share that information? Well, in an ideal world, we would recommend before a child reaches about six, so that and sort of the the earlier the better more for the parents so that they can get comfortable with this story they can find a vocabulary and a narrative and a family

family story that's coherent and and honest that that works for them and that can take a bit of time to build that confidence but doing that when a child is very young means that the child's not going to ask any silly questions or any awkward questions so you build up a confidence before they maybe turn seven eight nine and start saying uh well what what does this actually mean and may ask a more slightly more challenging question but i should say that we also support people who have much older children um where you know they may have adult children who haven't been told and and we have specific support services for that, or maybe teenagers that haven't been told. We advise younger, but we're there for all families.

I just want to actually pop in the statistics. Donor conception has led to more than 4,100 births, those figures from 2019. So accounting for one in 170 of all births and nearly one in six births using IVF in the UK which I thought were interesting when I read them yesterday so I wanted to share those with our listeners. But coming back to you Clare then I mean if people particularly children go this route I mean what are they going to find out because you know finding one's identity or their background genetic background they might be expecting perhaps more than even will be provided by what might be released. Yeah, I should say that the total number of children born since 1991 is 70,000.

So it's about 4,000 children born a year, but over 70,000 since 1991. So children who are turning 18 or becoming adults can apply later in the year for, as you said, the last name, date of birth and last known postal address of the donor. Now, the reason why I said trepidation at the beginning is some of those donors will have moved. They may unfortunately have even passed away. They may or may not want anything to do with the donor conceived child contacting them. So we're expecting some quite difficult relationships over the next few months and years ahead as this becomes more commonplace. So some donors may be very aware that this is happening this year, they may remember that, they may have kept their contact details up to date with the clinic that they donated at and they may be looking forward to hearing from the donor conceived child

and donors themselves can apply to the HFEA for non-identifying information so they can find out the number the sex and the year of birth of any children born from their donation. On the HFEA website there's a lot of information both for donors for donor conceived children their families about how to apply for that information and obviously for us the reason i said trepidation is we're very aware that this is immensely precious and very sensitive information so when we give out the information we will check and double check that information the last thing we would want to give out is incorrect information. And we're very sensitive that these are really life-changing times for people. The other thing that people may get,

and they can apply for that from the time they turn 16, is what we call pen portraits and goodwill messages. So this is a message that a donor may have left for those using the donations, so the parents or parent, about why they're donating. And it can be quite person sensitive. They may know someone who's had trouble conceiving. And they also may have left a message for any children born,

giving a bit of a description about themselves, their background, their own family and childhood, which really helps the donor conceived child to kind of paint a picture of the donor in their mind. You bring up a lot of things that I'm thinking about, Claire. And maybe I'll throw this back to you, Dina, as well, because there may be the children that want to know who the donor was, but then I suppose there may be the donors who want to know the children and the children may not be interested. Well, that's a very interesting comment because, yeah,

our sense is that a lot of 18 year olds have more interesting things going on in their lives really than pursuing this information so it's going to be yeah it'll be it'll be interesting to see how many what proportion come forward literally as they turn 18. I think the curiosity may come a little bit later and certainly when we when we talk to donor conceived adults often it's other life events that make them start thinking about their own sort of genetic heritage or other connections, for example, if they have a child themselves. But, yeah, I think it's going to be interesting to see how many come forward. And, yes, you're right. I think you were saying that it may be very disappointing for donors if they're all excited, thinking I'm intrigued to find out what happened next.

And actually nobody applies for that information. And similarly, I think if donor conceived people know that they have several half siblings and may be very curious about those. And if those other half siblings don't come forward, I think the whole thing is going to be about managing expectations that we can't guarantee anything. We don't quite know how this is going to unfold and to make sure we've got sort of support services and connections that we can make to make sure that people have somewhere to go if things don't quite transpire as they would like.

In a way, though, it is more structured and planned than perhaps what often does happen I think in the modern age with DNA testing you know home tests and all that this as you called it accidental disclosure how big an issue is that at the moment? Oh that's a really big issue I mean so many people are intrigued by their by their DNA and want to find out about their ethnicity or find wider family connections. They perhaps don't even know their donor conceived or they don't know that their father or mother was a donor. So they put their DNA online and then suddenly something pops up that's completely unexpected and doesn't make sense. Of course, that might not be donor conception. It might be other um but there might be lots of other reasons why why that that

that mismatch happens but uh but if it's donor conception then there's a whole sort of unraveling of who you know who knows who to tell how what to do with that information and you know that isn't the ideal way to find out that either your parent was a donor or your parents used a donor to conceive you. And, you know, that's why, you know, our message around openness and building confidence in the family story is really key. I see comments coming in. So shall I read a couple of them to our listeners and to you? Let me see. Katie, we have children born via sperm donation. We have told them they were conceived by donation from an age before they could really understand.

No big reveal is our recommended way to discuss this with children. We couldn't have children without the altruism of a donor. We've passed that feeling on to our children. Good morning and Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. I don't have the name of this person, but thank you for getting in touch.

The segment on donor conception. Does the legislation extend to donor eggs from other EU countries? We have a UK donor egg child who we had a letter from the donor and will fully support the child meeting her in a celebratory way. Our other child is from a Spanish

altruistic donor. The law there gives anonymity, but clearly DNA tracing may make contact possible. We'd like both children to have the same chance to meet and thank a very special person. Any thoughts Claire? This is a really interesting question and one that comes up quite frequently. So we do know that many people for various reasons have fertility treatment abroad and some people are particularly seeking egg donation in countries like Spain because they want a kind of so-called anonymous donor.

I think as Nina's pointed out things like DNA testing websites that people might just get as a Christmas present, you know, from Ancestry.com or one of the others, they may find out that their donor conceived unwittingly. Unfortunately, we can only talk about what we have access to in the UK. And we hold the register of all treatments that took place in the UK so if someone has had a treatment outside the UK they wouldn't be able to apply for us for information there may be other ways they may be able to find out some of that information for example through DNA testing websites or other other types of testing but they wouldn't be able to access that identifying information from the HFVA. So interesting. Nina, let me turn to you. If somebody is trying to bring up this topic or

speak to their child about the fact that they were donor conceived, what sort of advice do you give? I think the first thing is preparation. I think it's really common for parents to feel quite anxious about how to do this and when and what words to use. Because for most people, that journey, that fertility journey has been perhaps quite emotional. And for most people would rather not have used a donor. That's it's very often a sort of plan B, is not to say it's the you know a bad plan at all um so that those feelings of of perhaps feeling uncomfortable or bringing up a lot of emotion that relating to your own experience the the preparation stage can help people think that through and get rid of some of that so that then the story can become much more neutral about about the facts of how the child was conceived and positive ideally you know we want people to feel like they've done something that they can be proud of and that their child can be proud of

so we have lots of resources and services books and workshops and events and activities and membership etc really all built around building that confidence so that when parents do decide to take the next step and start talking about it, they feel ready. And of course, there are so many different family setups, also in society in general, and also, of course, with donor conceived as well, whether it might be a single mum or a single dad or a gay couple or heterosexual couple? Is it is everybody going through the same thing? Not completely the same thing. So often for the same sex couples, you know, there's a lot of excitement and, and positivity around the fact that they can have a child together. And but but I think, I think there's still, you know, in an ideal world,

if you're a gay couple, you probably think, well, I'd like to make a baby with my partner. You know, just that isn't how how things work. But so there can still be an element of, OK, who is this person? Who is this donor that we're bringing into our family and how are we going to integrate them into the family story in a positive way? And what do they mean for us and our children? And so there are lots of very similar issues that come up for all of our families. We support all family types. But there are some subtle nuances in the different differences. I understand.

One more from Caroline for you, Claire. My daughter was conceived through donor sperm. Let me see. It's very sad, actually. My daughter conceived through donor sperm, died shortly after birth in 1994. I'm so sorry, Caroline. I'm just reading this the first time. I'm so sorry you've gone through that.

Would the donor be able to find out or would he have been told at the time in case there was a genetic reason? I'm very sorry, firstly, to hear about your listeners' experience. That's very sad. There is different sorts of information the donor can access and it depends whether they have essentially ticked a box that says that they can be contacted to find out any kind of new information about any inherited diseases so some donors are kind of amenable to hearing about that and others don't want to be contacted even though it could be something life-changing. It's such an individual story with every case, but this is something that will be happening later this year.

And I just want to thank both my guests, both Clare Ettenhausen and also Nina Barnsley, that have come in to talk to us about this law. That changed in 2005, but really the implications, the consequences, which are wide-ranging, as we've been hearing, that will come into effect later this year as donor-conceived children turn 18. Thank you both so much.

Thank you. The time is 10.48. I just see another one. I'm a mum through egg donation following an early menopause diagnosis and my children are the light of my life. At the time, I wasn't aware of the potential impact of them not having the chance to know their genetic origins. I don't regret using a donor at all, as otherwise I wouldn't aware of the potential impact of them not having the chance to know their genetic origins. I don't regret using a donor at all

as otherwise I wouldn't have them. But I do regret having travelled abroad to use anonymous donors in Czech Republic. It's encouraging to see how things are changing in the UK and I hope that other countries follow suit. And that's Becky. Thanks, Becky, for getting in touch. Now, I want to move on.

Something a lot of you have got in touch with. I think a lot of you have been feeling this. What it's like to be the only woman in a group of men. Is it isolating or intimidating or can there be a certain pride? What about that? Being included as one of the lads. Emmy Humes is a documentary filmmaker who spent years gathering archive images of all male groups with exactly one woman in the picture. She published it as a collection. Her book is called The Only Woman, aptly named.

Emma John is a sports journalist and author of Self-Contained, her memoir of single life. She spent her career covering cricket and also rugby, often as the only woman, surrounded by male friends and colleagues. Hello, Emma. Hi. Good to have you. I see you on my screen there. And, Immy, hello. Hello, hello. Lovely to have both of you with us.

I just have to read a couple of these because there's so many that have come in. Let's get one or two in. This is Susie. As a young woman in the 80s and 90s, I deliberately sought out activities which were male-dominated, so I frequently was the only woman in the 80s and 90s, I deliberately sought out activities which were male dominated, so I frequently was the only woman in the room. I studied mechanical engineering. Women were outnumbered 10 to 1, played

five-a-side football, played bass guitar in a band. Typically I either flirted a lot or attempted to be one of the lads to fit in. I enjoyed it at the time, but looking back I feel embarrassed by the compromises that I made. Emma, you're smiling.

It's so funny because that sort of range of activities is just really resonating with me. I mean, yeah, I basically, this only really happened because I fell in love with cricket in my teenage years. And just, I would have loved it

if some of my girlfriends had been, you know, had been into cricket, but none of them were. And it was just such a male dominated game and hobby to watch it, you know, at the time. But but but very much like your listener, what has happened is because I think my formative teenage years were spent like that. I did kind of end up. Yeah, I think putting putting those kind of environments on some sort of pedestal. I mean, I guess partly it was what I got used to. And then it ended up being my career that I was a sports journalist. So, you know, so then it was just I really was the only woman in the cricket press box most of the time and at many other sporting events, too. But I've had the same thing whereby I've somehow also then as a hobby

I took up playing bluegrass fiddle in my 30s and it was really funny I went off to America and of course immediately discovered I'd done it right again and just dropped myself in it and everybody I was you know all of these bluegrass musicians that I was jamming with were all men so I do think it becomes something that ends up somehow defining your life. So you probably somewhere have one or more photographs of you being the only woman in a group of men? Oh, definitely, yes.

More than one photograph. One of my favourites is the 2019 Cricket World Cup where I was sat in the very middle seat of the Lord's Media Centre and somebody took this lovely picture looking down the row.

It's just this one female. And there you are. Maybe a spot of colour because that often happens as well, doesn't it, Amy? You have collected all these archive images of lone women in groups. I loved looking at them, I have to say. Very intriguing. Maybe you could describe one of the photographs for our listeners. I know we're on radio but just and also maybe a little of the story of the woman behind it

Gosh there's so many and they're all different you know that's what I love about them they're all the same and then they're all different and for me

it was so interesting because each one sort of sparks a different kind of feeling tone for me you know and and also now having tracked down their stories as much as possible so I you know I I have very different responses to each one of these hundred photos but um they're one one photo that's you

mentioned the spot of color they're very it's a there's very there are things that happen in all these pictures very often the position of the woman is important you know each story each picture tells a little story just visually so you'll find for example the one woman is often in the very middle or she's often in the very edge you know she could be cut out She's either sort of one or the other, and sometimes she's hiding behind and is almost invisible. But then there's also, as you said, this question of color and women's clothing, where the woman will be, it'll be this drab sea of gray, men in suits, pale and male usually in this case, and then there'll be this pop. There's this one fabulous picture from the early 60s of a board of directors, very formal, very geometric picture of all of these CEO types,

and it's actually Catherine Graham, the publisher of the Washington Post, is sitting up front, also very conservatively dressed, but in pale blue, in a sort of lovely conservative woman's dress. And she's just, the whole picture becomes about her. And actually, that picture is on our website and also at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, that incredible story of of Catherine Graham anybody that's watched the Washington Post for example the fictional version or read her book will know what an extraordinary woman

that she was for what she managed to achieve after Watergate and the Pentagon Papers and all that and I think that picture is so illustrative of her force and power within that institution among those men at that time. She was such a pioneer, but it was she was a reluctant one. Yes. You know, she was really just

following in a lot of the women. I started asking myself, you know, as I was collecting these, I was getting more and more obsessed. And I started trying to categorize them because, you know, you see sort of I was interested in every picture of a bunch of men with one woman, except for families. You know, I wasn't a lot of brothers with one sister wasn't the issue. But I figured all the other ones have some social meaning. They're all about patriarchy in one way or another. And it's, you know. So I want to get into that, actually. And let me throw it back to you, Emma, in just a moment, after I read a couple of comments from our listeners. Hello, Nuala.

I recently started competing in Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I'm the only female in the class. When I first went there, it was very intimidating seeing all those men in one place. I actually stopped going to the evening classes because I was constantly getting hit on, including by the instructor. I swapped to the morning classes where men were a lot older and I was more comfortable.

Cathy from Cardiff. Another, this is Captain Lalitha D'Souza, Army Medical Corps. In 1981 in India, I was invited to the graduation dinner for naval officers who had just got their engineering degrees. I was the only woman in the hall when the commanding officer introduced me to the 200 or more men in the hall. And I giggled loudly, I have to say, at the time I was their medic, the only lady medical officer on site. But you mentioned patriarchy because this is why women often find themselves the only woman in the room. But I kind of touched on a little bit of some people wanting to be one of the lads I don't know if that still continues now um I'll get your thoughts there in me and then I will come back to you Emma there's such a range of experience you know I think that they all count they're all

part of the story and being the privileged one in one way or another, there are a million different ways this can happen, is still, you know, is exciting. It's fun. I have to say, I only realized it in retrospect, but when I hit 50, I gave myself a birthday party, which was me and 12 men. Uh-huh. Why? Did you realize it in retrospect? It wasn't planned? No. I'm over 50 now. So it was, no, I mean, I realized in retrospect that I'd done that,

that this theme had been in my mind longer than I knew. And what was behind it for you? Well, you know, I grew up in a family of many, many women and many, you know, sisters. And I've always been very ardent feminist and have been in many all female spaces all my life. And so for some reason, coming up on 50, I thought, you know, damn it. Well, let me throw back. I've only got about a minute. So I have to get back to Emma. What do you think about the 50th birthday party with only men when you're the woman? It's wonderful. I've had the same thing. I've done a birthday dinner, so I have to get back to Emma. What do you think about the 50th birthday party with only men when you're the woman? It's wonderful.

I've had the same thing. I've done a birthday dinner. Not as many as 12, but yes, around half dozen. I've done exactly the same thing. And for me, yes, I think it is because I do like the dynamic. I find it, I think a lot of it for me was my mum was one of, she was one of five. She had four brothers. And then she was the only female partner in her law firm. She was the only woman who wasn't a secretary in her law firm.

And I think I grew up really, really feeling she modelled. That was her model of feminism for me. I really felt that that was achievement to be the only woman in the room. And so I think somehow subconsciously I really felt that that was achievement to be the only woman in the room. And so I think somehow, subconsciously, I've sought that out. And I really, I mean, I definitely don't think that I have changed myself to do it. I know that from a very young age, I think, you know, I know that my mum had a slightly lower voice. And I think I've, you know, sort of subconsciously dropped my voice and done all these kind of weird things to fit in. And I don't yet regret it. Okay, well, I'm going to park that because I do want to read one more comment.

I want to thank Emma John and also Amy Humes. But let me give the last words to Anna Brooks. She says, I'm the only full-time female instrumentalist, saxophonist in Jules Holland's orchestra and has always been the only girl in the band and has lots of photos to prove it. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's called The New Gurus and it's about how everywhere you look on the internet,

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