Woman's Hour - The pension gap, Rape trial delays, Author Harriet Lane

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Over a third of women could face poverty in retirement due to a growing gender gap in private pensions, according to a report from Scottish Widows, with women's finances being hit by caring responsibilities and career gaps. YouGov carried out the reseach for the Scottish Widows annual Women and Retirement Report, asking 4,000 women from across the UK about their pensions and retirement planning, as well as savings, investments and career breaks. Nuala McGovern talks to Lily Megson-Harvey, the Policy Director of retirement finance company My Pension Expert. A third of all rape trials in Wales and England last year were postponed at least once, often on the day of trial, according to a new report published by the charity Rape Crisis England and Wales. Ten years ago in 2015 the figure was one in 10. Their report, Living in Limbo, finds rape and sexual abuse survivors are being retraumatised by the criminal justice system. Nuala is joined by Maxime Rowson, the charity's Head of Policy and Public Affairs. Back in 1995 a call went out looking for women to take part in a landmark scientific study exploring the links between what we eat and our health. Thirty-five thousand middle-aged women signed up to be part of the UK Women’s Cohort Study. It went on to look at the impact our diet can have on our risk of developing cancer and other chronic diseases, as well as other areas of women’s health from our bones to the menopause. Professor Janet Cade from the University of Leeds joins Nuala to discuss what it was like launching the study 30 years ago and some of its key takeaways for women. Families are calling for a change in the law after they say their babies' dead bodies were kept inappropriately at a funeral director's home. The case highlights a lack of regulation in funeral services in England and Wales. Nuala speaks to Zoe Ward, one of the parents affected, who recently met with Victims Minister Alex Davies Jones to call for new laws, and to Zoe’s MP, Mark Sewards. Harriet Lane’s new novel, Other People’s Fun, explores modern life and the lies we tell others – and ourselves – on social media. It follows an unlikely and uneasy friendship between the unnoticed Ruth and the Instagrammable Sookie. Harriet joins Nuala in the studio to discuss why female friendships and ‘everyday horror’ has always intrigued her. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, this is Neu La McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, how healthy is your pension pot and how healthy is your diet? There are two topics we're delving into this morning and also today, a report from rape crisis, England and Wales that says the number of sexual offence cases waiting to go to court is 66% higher compared to the number waiting at the same time in 2022. where we're going to hear how they hope that figure can be changed. We also have the author Harriet Lane to talk about her book Other People's Fun.

Her protagonist seeks out connection with those she barely knows through online lurking and she paints menacing middle-class scenarios that are dark and also hilarious. I'm really looking forward to speaking to her. And somewhat related, did you see the Cambridge Dictionary of Word of the Year? It's parisocial. And that is defined as a connection someone feels between themselves and a famous person, that they do not know. Perhaps you feel like you know someone,

you follow them online, and even though you've never met them, you think you get on really well together. Or perhaps you've real emotions over what they go through, whether that's a divorce, a job promotion, or a pregnancy announcement. Well, if so, you have a parasocial relationship. I'm curious, have you experienced it?

And if so, who is it? And why? You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our web, website for a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. Looking into a little bit of the research, the majority of influencers online appear to be women and women are more likely to follow women as well.

So I'm curious for your thoughts on any parasocial relationship you'd like to chat about. But let me begin with a report. That is out from Scottish Widows, the insurance company, that says over a third of women could face poverty in retirement due to a growing gender gap in private pay. pensions. So the disparity shows women's finances are hit by things like caring responsibilities, also any career gaps. And it comes from the Scottish Widow's annual Women and Retirement Report. It uses UGov research that was carried out earlier this year. And it asked over 4,000 women from across the UK about their pensions and retirement planning as well as savings, investment,

and yes, those career breaks. Let me bring in Lily Megson Harvey, policy director of the retirement finance company, my pension expert. Good morning. Morning. Thank you for having me. So when we talk about a pension gap, what is it exactly? So the pension gap is the percentage difference in pension income and wealth between men and women when they actually reach retirement. So when it comes to the state pension, for example, that's almost eliminated. It's less than difference. But when it comes to private pension, unfortunately the issue is much more prevalent. So for example, when it comes to your average pension pop, men have 156,000 pounds, but women only have 81,000 pounds. So it's still a

massive difference, unfortunately. And how do you understand the reasons behind that? Well, it is a complicated issue, and there are several key reasons for it. The most prominent one, I would say, is the gender pay gap. So proportionally on average, still, women do earn less than men. and that can factor into clearly a difference between pension contributions when it comes to workplace pensions. But there are other factors as well. As the Scottish Widows report states, women are more likely to take career breaks for caring responsibilities, for example.

But also when we look at working patterns as well, for example, 36% of women who are employed are part-time compared to just 14% of men. So, of course, that all factors into your overall pension contribution. There was one part with career breaks, actually, that the research said that more than half of women, so 58%, at or near retirement have taken a career break compared to about 12% of men. But I'm wondering, is there a way around that? I mean, there's so many reasons that women take those career breaks. it would need to be structural change, wouldn't it, to really make a difference? I think so.

And I think making sure that women, if they do choose to take a career break, are aware of the different options available and aware of the support mechanisms in place to make sure that they don't actually lose out on retirement pension savings. So, for example, that there's making the most of exploring different, private pensions options. So exploring that as well. But to that end, accessing financial advice, I think is incredibly important to making it as accessible to women as possible so they can understand the various financial options available to them and feel confident to make those informed decisions about pension saving. Does maternity, for example, does it have to take a hit on your pensions

or is there a way around that? Actually, going on maternity leave shouldn't impact your employer's pension contributions. So even when if your pay goes on to statutory minimum during maternity leave, your employer's pension contributions should remain the same. Sometimes there are some employers who do have financial systems where the pension contribution automatically reduces in line with income,

so with statutory minimum. and pay, for example. So it's really important when women do go on maternity leave to make sure that they're checking their pension statements for their workplace pension, just to make sure that they're still continuing to receive the money that they're entitled to. And if there are any issues,

they should speak to their HR department who will be able to help them with this issue. So that is a potential solution there. However, if women decide to go part-time, perhaps due to maternity, or post- maternity. Is there a way to get around that, probably more tricky? It's all about making sure that you understand the options available. So speaking to your employer to see how you can maximise

that your employer's pension contributions is really important. Having those discussions as early as possible can be really beneficial in the long term. And as I mentioned before, considering private pension options and speaking to an advisor to understand how you can potentially increase the amount you're saving but without having an immediate financial hit to other commitments. One of the report authors suggest that spouses should be actively saving

into their partner's pension pot if one is taking maternity leave. I'm just wondering how that might work. I mean, you have to, I suppose, have some sort of safeguard set up. I'm just thinking does the couple continue forever, you know, hopefully, but sometimes not. Yes, that might be a slightly more complicated issue. So I think in those circumstances, it's very important to have those open and honest discussions with your partner. And perhaps, as you mentioned, having some sort of boundaries in place to make sure that in the unfortunate example of your partnership splitting up, that you do receive what you're entitled to.

So perhaps considering having your pension as part of a divorce settlement, making sure that those discussions are in place to make sure that you're not losing out on money which you're entitled to. The other aspect that is mentioned is, which I think we're kind of alluding to in a lot of these points,

is continuing to pay into your pension when you're on leave from work. That is, of course, if you have the money to do so. Of course. It's a very important consideration to make. But that said, I know it's particularly in this economic environment, it's a lot easier said than done, given the amount of immediate financial commitments people have, which is why I think it is so important to make sure that you do your research and seek the support available to you in the form of guidance and financial advice. I think having those discussions with professional regulated advisors will really help you to understand. Firstly, what options are available to you, but how you can save in a way that doesn't impact or negatively impact, I should say, those immediate financial commitments because I understand how important those are as well. There's two things that kind of strike me. One about women leaving the workforce for whatever reason. The report was saying that by the age of 55, one in four women have been out of work for more than five years, which obviously has that hit that we're talking about at retirement.

We spoke on the program yesterday briefly about the ways symptoms of menopause can impact women's work lives even leaving some women to leave the workforce. But I suppose pensions should be at the forefront of people's minds if they are thinking about leaving the workforce. I think it should always be a consideration and if you do have any concerns or any questions about the setup of your workplace pension, for example, and how it works, who you can speak to

with your pension provider to make sure that you have that access to information. It's always important to speak to your HR department. They'll be able to give you all the information you need. So you can speak to who you need to and make sure that you're making those informed decisions as early as possible so it doesn't have a long-term negative impact. And the other part, of course, where we started is the gender pay gap. So I suppose anything people can do to try and minimise that in their own individual

way will help in the long term. Of course. And if we're honest, that is a long-term structural issue, which absolutely has to be addressed if we're going to make any impact on the pension gap. Oh, sorry, the pension gender gap. However, let's say that's a long-term discussion, but it absolutely has to be addressed. And in the meantime, just exploring different alternative savings options and making use of the information and support available to you, I think is really, really important to taking those steps. Getting really informed. Lily Meggs and Harvey from my pension expert. Thanks so much for joining us this morning. Well, I want to turn to rape trials in Wales and England next

because a third of them last year were postponed at least once, often on the day of the trial, and that is according to a new report published by the charity Rape Crisis England and Wales. For context, 10 years ago in 2015, the figure was one in 10. Now, a third. Their report is called Living in Limbo and finds that rape and sexual abuse survivors are being re-traumatized, they say, by the criminal justice system. Joining me now is Maxime Rosin,

who is head of policy and public affairs at Rape Crisis, England and Wales. Good morning. So tell me a little bit more exactly at the figures that you've been looking at. Good morning. Thanks so much for having us. So yes, as you set out, there's extensive backlogs in the Crown Courts

at the moment. Over 13,000 cases waiting for trial in the Crown Court are sexual offence cases and increasingly survivors in these cases are facing extensive delays and multiple postponements. We look in the report at five key factors that cause and contribute to that backlog. So in brief, there are not enough barristers willing to conduct sexual offence cases. One in five sexual offence trials that don't go ahead, don't go ahead because there's no barrister available. There's also not enough judges, not enough physical courtrooms. Some of them are literally falling apart so they can't be used. And cases are being listed in a way that makes it incredibly likely that the trials will be cancelled at the last

minute. So they're increasingly being listed as floating trials. And I'll come to floating trials in just a moment. But that first point, which the others really, I suppose, also kind of come out of in the sense of this lack of personnel and infrastructure. to carry out these trials. You said that barristers that are not willing to be part of these trials, why is that, do you know? Yeah, so there's been years of underinvestment

in criminal barristers. So you will remember the barrister strikes of just a few years ago over pay, which hasn't been increased for quite a few years. There's been a slight pay increase now, but arguably that's not enough. And these cases take an incredible toll. You know, anyone working in the sector will know the toll these cases take on you.

There's currently only around 600 estimated barristers who are approved to prosecute these cases against thousands and thousands that need to be heard. So you'll see barristers doing these cases back to back. That takes a serious, that's a serious impact on them. And with judges? Yeah. So there's been slight improvements in. judges. There has been a successful random recruitment from the government since we launched our report in 2023, but we're still seeing 2% of trials not go ahead because there's no judges

available. But the issue of recruiting judges is that they come from the pools of barristers and solicitors. So if you're recruiting more judges, you're then left with less barristers, which is why we're calling for a real holistic look at what's going on in the system, because you can't just tinker with one issue without seeing the impact and investigating that in other areas. Yeah, we did have Lady Hale on the programme a number of months ago and she very much spoke about this issue of underinvestment

as she sought within the justice system feeling at times there was more attention on perhaps health service, for example, or education. But coming to that point that you made of floating trials, can you explain what they are? Yeah, so floating trials or fixed floating trials are essentially where trials are given a date but they're not allocated to a specific courtroom or a specific judge. So essentially, survivors are asked to turn up at court and see if a courtroom or a judge becomes available. So the courts, they do this so that the court is never without work

so that if one drops out, there's always work to be heard because obviously we've got these backlogs. But essentially we're asking survivors to prepare for years, only to turn up on the day and be turned away and asked to come back years and years later. So, sorry. Yeah, no, so that explains the concept. And of course, we can understand very much for victims of crimes, why that would be such a difficult ask. Are you asking, however, for floating trials to be changed in any way?

What is the request? Yes, one of our key recommendations is to stop listing sexual offence trials as floating in trials and to give them priority fixed hearing dates. We got some FOI data, which shows that... Which is freedom of information? Yes, freedom of information data, which shows there's been a 257% increase in sexual offence cases being listed in this way. And actually, only 34% of the trials listed as floaters go ahead.

So the majority are being turned away on the day. And with that, how would that change? come about? So listing is a bit of a tricky one. It's ultimately a judicial responsibility. However, it's usually carried out by listing officers in His Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Service. That is actually the only criminal justice agency that doesn't have an independent inspectorate, the police, the CPS, probation, prisons all do. Their inspectorate was actually abolished about 15 or so years ago by previous government. So we're asking for, that inspectorate to be re-established because there are real issues with impact on survivors

of what is happening by the listing offices and those in that agency. And with that specific request of an inspectorate, have you had a response? Yes. So there's been discussion of this over the years and the government, most recently, the minister has said that they don't see a need for it. We would argue, obviously, against that. The Justice Minister, Sarah Seckman, was on news night last night and said we will do whatever it takes to bring down the backlog in our courts. Our courts are in a state of crisis. Currently the backlog, this is for all cases. This is not sexual assault.

It is at 78 cases and behind each one is an individual story. We have to do whatever it takes to bear down on the delays and ensure we get swifter justice for all victims. I was struck when you were talking about cases not going ahead on a particular day because of a flow. trial, as you say, and then that person coming back years later. Years? Yes, years. If you're in London today and your trial doesn't go ahead, you're likely to be asked to come back in 2029. And so it's not just the delays of years, it's the multiple postponements. We've got data that shows that some survivors are being given six or more trial dates before it eventually goes ahead. And I just, I think I misspoke there. Maybe I didn't put in the thousand. Seventy-eight-thousand is the

backlog. That's it. What is it when it comes to the sexual assault cases? How many are you talking about? So of that 78,000 in the backlog overall, I think it's 17, sorry, 17% of those are sexual offences, so it's over 13,000 cases at the moment. And the women, the women, that you talk about, they're coming back again and again, you're obviously speaking to them. What do they tell you? Yeah, so in the report that's published today, there's the experience of 13 survivors who have spoke to us and the impact on them really can't be overstated. So, I mean, just imagine, God forbid, that you've endured a sexual offence, you've decided

that you want to report it because that's what you're told you should do. You wait years for the police to investigate. They're months or years more for the CPS to decide whether to charge. you get over that hurdle, you get to court. And imagine finally getting to your court date after all that preparation and being told, sorry, there's two more trials booked in. And we've decided to prioritise the drug's possession case. And you're coming back in a year. That happens again and again and again. You're now facing your sixth trial date. You can't plan your life. You're scared to go out in case you bump into the perpetrator who's on bail. You can't

talk to your mom or your friend about the offence in all these years because the court doesn't allow it. You can't access therapy, which allows you to speak about what happens here. Your memory of the detail starts to fade. The impact is on your entire life. It's your career, your education, your relationships with this hanging over you for years and years. And we really cannot be asking survivors of sexual violence to stick with this process. When you talk about not being able to access therapy, do you say that because notes from the therapy may be involved in the trial?

So that is a separate issue. So survivors absolutely can access what's called pre-trial therapy, which is, it's essentially a limited form of therapy where you are advised not to speak about the facts of the case because that could be used against you and you could be accused of witness coaching. So you can't access therapy, but you cannot talk about what happened to you

until the trial is over if there is one. You've explained what some of the women have gone through. We do know that women do, drop out of these cases due to some of the reasons that you have explained. And I suppose then that has an impact on the system for justice,

for sexual assault in a larger scale in society. Absolutely. So we know that 24% of adult rape survivors withdraw their support for the case after charge, after getting that far, understandably so, many of them

because of the backlogs. But amazingly, So many women stick with it. And many of the survivors we speak to say they are sticking with it because they don't want their perpetrator sexually abused in somebody else. And that should not be their responsibility. But if we are asking these survivors to report, we have to ensure that they are being met by a system that prioritises them,

especially if we're going to halve violence against women and girls in a decade as this government is set out to do that. We have to be able to stop perpetrators offending again, which they will. Maxime Roussin from Rape Crisis England and Wales thank you so much and if you have been affected by this or any of the issues in today's program

please go to the BBC Action Line website where you will find links to support now I want to talk about health 30 years ago a call went out looking for women to take part in a landmark scientific study exploring the links between what we eat

and our health 35,000 middle aged women many of them called Margaret or Dorothy apparently signed up to take part in the UK's women's cohort study back in 1995. It was initially funded by World Cancer Research and that fund and it is one of the largest scientific studies of diet and health in the UK. So let's find out.

What did they find? I'm joined by Professor Janet Cage. She's from the University of Leeds School of Food Science and Nutrition who launched this study. Wow, that's quite a while, Professor, that you've been working on this. Hello, good morning. Yes, yes it is. I was a young mum actually when I got the chance to start this study and it has been a real privilege and an honour actually to work with the data that we were able to collect 30 years ago. And it's hard if you're going to ask me to summarise what we've found because obviously over 30 years a lot of people, a lot of research. researchers, students, colleagues from around the world have been able to make use of our amazing data. Shall I give you a brief outline of what we were really trying to do? Yeah, and where you

found the women? Yes. So the women were recruited through the World Cancer Research Fund's questionnaire. They were a relatively new charity at the time and had stored questionnaires in a big warehouse where people said they would take part in further research and whether they were vegetarians or not. So we went through paper by paper and extracted information about these women. And then we wrote to them all, I can't say I stuck stamps on 60,000 envelopes, but it did feel a bit like that at the time. So we wrote to a large number of the responders to that original questionnaire and through that we recruited 35,000 women who told us about what they were eating and we were able to then link those women to NHS data where since then we've

received information about cancer incidents, other information about health and deaths. Fascinating. How did you decide what was middle aged and what is middle aged in your study? Oh dear. Yes. Well, yes, we recruited women who were aged 35 to 69 years at the start. I suppose being younger than that at the time myself, I thought that sounded kind of middle age. Obviously, I'm getting towards the upper end of that now. And so actually, you know, perhaps we were a little bit casual with our definition. But anyway, we had to create a clear definition for statistics. purposes so that we had enough people within a specific age bracket to be able to look at associations. Right. Let's get into what you found. Give me some of your top lines, Professor. Yes. So initially we were looking at diet in relation to risk of cancer. And of course, with the cohort study of women, we had early doors, a larger number of women developing breast cancer. So we were able to look at that and we showed that meat intake, particularly red and processed meats, were increasing risk of breast cancer.

We've also explored colorectal cancer and eating a Mediterranean type diet reduces risk of colorectal cancer. We've looked at stroke risk and we found that women who ate more. fiber from whole grains, fruit and vegetables, but, you know, not forgetting cereals, your whole meal bread, that type of thing, have a lower risk of stroke. And then more recently, we've been really the first group to look at diet in relation to age and menopause. And there's no, as it were, right age to have your menopause. But we did find that women who ate more oily fish and fresh legumes, that's beans, peas and things like that, had a later onset of natural menopause,

whereas eating refined pasta and rice was linked to an earlier menopause. How interesting. And I think with that, I mean, you mentioned fibre there. Some people talk about that's going to be the next. Not fad, that's the wrong word to use, but the next thing that will be flooding our algorithms on social media, where it was perhaps protein and middle-aged women for quite a while. Yeah, I'm happy about that because I think fibre has been an underrated nutrient for a long time.

And potentially, if we all sort of worked on eating a bit more dietary fiber, then going along with that would be all the other micronutrients that we need with it. And we would have lower energy density. The more fiber you eat, in general, the lower amount of calories. you consume. So I think it's a good one to go with. Vegetarians and pescatarians and meat eaters, you did divide those three up as well. Any news on that front? Yes, we did. And that was probably one of the USPs of our cohort was that at the time

we were focusing on trying to get good numbers of vegetarian women in the cohort so that we could look at these associations. Obviously, over those 30 years, far more people now follow a plant-based or vegetarian diet than did then. But some recent analysis from one of our students at the time was looking at vegetarian women and risk of hip fracture. And we found that women who were vegetarian had a higher risk of hip fracture. So identifying that maybe vegetarian women need to be careful about protein and calcium that's associated with bone health and perhaps not being too thin either actually and exercise, of course, important in that hip fracture. I wonder did you did you look at alcohol at all? Yes, we did measure alcohol and whilst the work,

that we've done with cancer risk was not quite clear, maybe a slight increased risk of breast cancer with those who were consuming alcohol. But actually, a recent student has been looking at risk of rheumatoid arthritis in the cohort and found, as found, that compared to those who didn't consume alcohol, low and moderate consumption actually was reducing risk a little bit. So there's always two sides to a story, isn't there? There sure is. That's one thing we know. You know, but coming to rheumatoid arthritis, and I know they took a look at that with obesity, I was interested in seeing the importance or the lack of importance of BMI and how to think about

waist-sized, for example, instead? Yes. Yes, actually, waist circumference was also associated with increased risk of rheumatoid arthritis. And actually, in our cohort, we've done a bit of work where we've looked at self-reported clothes size, so blouse and skirt size, as a proxy for body mass index. Because we haven't all got bathroom scales at home. So we don't necessarily know how heavy or we are. And we found that the self-reported blouse and skirt size actually is a useful proxy for body mass index. So increased dress sizes, increased risk of specific cancers that we looked at.

It's so interesting. It's such a simple thing in some ways and yet so revealing. You know the other bit that I thought was funny in the middle of this study? Fidgeting drives me crazy, right, if I'm sitting beside somebody who's fidgeting. However, I realise they might be on the right side health-wise. Do you want to explain? Yes, I will. So at the time we were setting out our questionnaire, relatively newly married,

my husband, an absolute veteran fidgetter, fidget, fidget, very skinny. and people who are measure physical activity really never, I would say almost never anyway, include fidgeting. And so I put a quick scale in there, you know, on a scale of sort of one to ten, how much do you think you fidget? And the women all answered this. And so we were able to identify that women who fidget more, even if they're sedentary, it does seem to. to protect them, so they had a lower risk of what we call overall mortality, basically, of dying. So although we'd need to look at that in more detail, fidgeting, if you have a very sedentary way of life, seems to be helpful.

Maybe I need to start fidgeting here at the desk. I don't know, maybe I need to pick up a new habit. That's one way to get a bit of physical activity in. Now, I understand that you're going to be looking at children's diet next. Yes, we've got some great research just starting looking at free school children. It's called the Growing Well Study and we will be following them up to see how what they eat influences growth and dental health. And the other study, yeah, which is important because actually preschool children have had so little research done with them. The other thing that we'd like to do is we'd like to start a cohort study of people living with and beyond cancer.

So cancer survivors, because again, most of the cohort studies have explored risks in healthy people up to the development of ill health, cancer risk, other things. But very few, because our treatments are so amazing now, have looked at cancer survivors. And of course, back in the day, all we did was with pencil and paper. Now we can use online tools. And our group has developed a fabulous new tool called My Food 24, which we could use in large studies. It's an app where people can record what they're eating in much more detail. Yeah, so you're not giving it up at all yet, the 35 years and continues.

Are you surprised by how people's eating has changed, just briefly before I let you go? I don't know, but it's surprised, but food has definitely changed over those years. So, you know, we've gone from sort of nostalgic staples and relatively new convenience types of food to having so many more variety of foods on our supermarket shelves with a big global influence, which wasn't there 30 years ago. Lovely to speak to you. Professor Janet Cade from the University of Leeds. Thank you for joining us this morning.

If you want to get in touch 84844. Next, a story about issues within funeral care for babies that contains, I have to tell you, some very upsetting details. Families in Leeds are calling for a change in the law after they say their baby's bodies were stored inappropriately at a funeral director's home. Zoe Ward, whose son died when he was only three weeks old, discovered his body had been put in a baby bouncer in the living room, in the funeral home director's house.

Her name is Amy Upton. Amy Upton is the founder of an organisation called Florey's Army, which provides funeral care for babies. Zoe said she trusted her to look after her son blue professionally. Zoe has since discovered that the funeral industry is unregulated in England and Wales. There are no legal requirements about how and where bodies should be stored and no qualifications needed to set up as a funeral director. Alongside another affected couple, Cody and Leim Townsend,

Zoe took their campaign for tighter regulation, of the funeral industry to Westminster last week where they met with the Victims Minister, Alex Davies Jones. I spoke to Zoe about the impact of the situation and what it has had on her and also what she's been trying to do in response. Yeah, I went to the police. I went to safeguarding.

You name it, I went to it. But the police came back with, they couldn't do nothing. Because it's not regulated. It's harder to open up a Bergen-van than it is a funeral service. Now, you met with the Victims Minister, I understand, Alex Davies Jones, last week.

How did that go? It were really good, it was positive. She really listened to us, and she did say that something's got to be done and something will be done. She just basically says that a lot of gaps need filling in and that we will get a law out eventually, that there's got to be something put in place.

What impact has this experience of how your babies remains were treated? What impact has set that hard on you? My mental health is not good. Obviously, I see things what I shouldn't see, and it should have been a comforting time, and it really wasn't. It was just frantic, it was scary, and it weren't good.

And I just regret all my decisions, but then it shouldn't have gone to her. I were expecting a funeral home and thought we were in the wrong place. It just wasn't nice. I'm really sorry to hear the way that you're suffering. Do you feel your meeting with the minister has helped? Yeah, I feel like justice is going to be served. You know, not just me and Cody and Liam, there's a lot of families out there.

This is affected and, you know, I've had a good couple of mum's come forward to me. It's astonishing, it's disgusting. It's very shocking. What would be justice in your eyes? Just a law in place to start. this ever happening to another family again that's enough for me that I feel that's justice served there

so there would be much more regulation around funeral directors yeah a lot more regulations like a DBS check why shouldn't you have a DBS checking working in that kind of you know work and I just think a lot of things need putting in place there's not just a couple there's a lot of things

what need putting in place so it can't be done that was Zoe Ward thanks very much to her for speaking to us on such a difficult topic. We did approach Amy Upton, the founder of Florey's army for a statement, but she declined. She has previously told the BBC

that she only ever received two complaints in her eight years of running her funeral and baby loss support service in Leeds. Well, joining me in studio now is Mark Seward's. He's Labour MP for Leeds Southwest and Morley and also Zoe's MP and he accompanied the group meeting with Victims Minister Alex Davies Jones last week.

Welcome. Thank you so much. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I think people, People will be very shocked by Zoe's story. You know, she talked about trying to contact the authorities for help and finding that there was remarkably little that they could do. Were you surprised by this story? I was stunned by this.

I first learned about it from Cody and Liam Townend, two of my constituents who came to me for help. They told me about the details of what happened to their baby. And then I learned through them that it also happened to Zoe as well. And as a result, I decided to take this up, as you'd expect any MP to do so. to change the law in this area because I couldn't believe that it wasn't regulated. When I began to read into it, for example, best practice suggests bodies should be kept in a clean and clinical environment between 4 and 7 degrees Celsius.

But all of the codes are voluntary. Why has the funeral sector in England and Wales been left unregulated for so long? Well, I think what I want to be clear on this point is that most of the funeral sector, most funeral directors, conduct themselves properly. 80% of them join professional bodies and follow the code of conduct and are in special. by those professional bodies because they know how important their jobs are and they know how important is to conduct themselves respectfully. Sadly, though, because it isn't regulated, it does give rise to these situations where quite literally anybody, you, me, anybody could print out a business card

and start operating as a funeral director tomorrow. There's a huge gap in the law here and that's what we have to address. And you talk about the trade organisations, the National Association of Funeral Directors, the National Society of Allied and Independent Funeral Directors that have the Code of Conduct. But, you know, membership to that trade organisation, either one of them, is voluntary. For their members, they must undergo regular inspections off the premises and procedures.

And I should say that Amy Upton was not a member of either organisation. Nor was Philip Gallagher, who is from Gallagher Funeral Services in Headingley. He signed out Baby Blue, which is Zoe's baby, from hospital. He is one of Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust's authorised funeral directors. In response to the BBC, he said he had a working relationship with Ms. Upton for five years and he said we're aware that two families have raised concerns about the service she provides. However, it is our understanding, says Mr. Gallagher, that these concerns have been thoroughly investigated. Of course, that continues.

But why is there not a statutory code of conduct for funeral directors? There was, for example, one introduced in Scotland. Yeah, that's right. And we're monitoring that closely. to see how that goes because really you can introduce a statutory regime but if it isn't enforced, nothing will happen. So Scotland will be

an interesting example to monitor. In England and Wales, we've got the Fuller Inquiry Phase 2. The Department of Health and Social Care are going to respond to the fuller inquiry phase 2 before the end of this year. And that recommended very strongly and very clear terms that there needs to be licensing of all

funeral directors, the funeral industry across the country. Now I'm clear that that is a recommendation the government should take up. We may not get confirmation in the interim report, which is due this Christmas, the interim response, sorry, but a full response has to be given by summer next year. And I'll be holding minister's feet to the fire

to ensure that they do act on those proposals in phase two because it's clear to me that this is unconscionable. We can't have a situation where anybody can be a funeral director. And with a government spokesperson told us, the government is considering a wide range of options to ensure funeral directors uphold the highest standards of professionalism and care so families can trust that they're in safe hands. Wide range of options, it's not giving me specifics.

No, and the minister was quite clear in our meeting with Zoe, with Cody and with Liam that the law has to change in this area. But what we didn't extract was a specific commitment. Because we know that we're waiting for phase two, the government's response to phase two to come out before Christmas, but also because the law commission is going to carry out some work on offences against dead bodies. because at the moment, clearly, there's a huge gap in this area and we need to clarify what the criminal law is.

Now, they'll consult with industry experts before they put their recommendations to government. To create offences? Because I think at the moment, as I look at it, no offence has actually, no law has been broken, no offence has been committed, even though it's horrifying. Yes, that's right.

And that is what is so horrifying about this situation. The police looked at every aspect of this and can find nothing actionable. And that's why, after what Cody Liam and Zoe have gone through, I commend them for their efforts because it takes real strength of character to pursue a change in the law in this area so that what happened to them never happens to anyone ever again. That has to change. Is the reassurance that you can offer families right now before any laws put in place? The reassurance that I can offer families right now is that most of

the funeral industry conducts itself properly, conducts itself respectfully. They follow a code of conduct and they welcome inspections from professional bodies. But there is going to be a compounding effect here. The more stories come out, the more people will realise that the funeral industry is not regulated and the more people will call for the funeral industry to be regulated in very clear terms and I want to be clear that I'm going to keep calling on the government to act on this and until they do so I won't stop.

Mark Seward's MP, thank you very much for coming in and we also heard from Zoe Ward. If you have been impacted by any aspect of this story, there are resources and help available on the BBC Action Line website. Now, on yesterday's program we heard from my colleague, the BBC technology editor Zoe Kleinman on BrainFog, she had a huge response to a relatable social media post about the moment when she experienced brain fog, which she shared with Women's Hour. Basically what happened was I was working late in the BBC Newsroom.

I had a busy day and then a story broke later on. It was a big story about an outage that was affecting dozens of websites and apps. So my team and I swung into action. We were reporting it, covering it, trying to figure out what was going to. on. And by the time we got to the BBC News at 10, I was pretty tired and I could just feel that haze of brain fog, you know, that soft focus. And I wanted to, I was doing a live hit on the telly and I wanted to explain in the company's words that had been affected by this outage, what the outage was. And then I wanted to describe what that was. And I was standing there,

it's dark, I've got the camera in front of me, light on me. It's absolutely silent. I have no auto queue. I've never had auto queue. You know, I've been trained as a broadcaster to broadcast without notes for 20 years. And I just can't remember this phrase. It's not sticking in my brain. And we're getting closer and closer to this live moment. And I can hear the news in my ear, because I've got an earpiece. And I thought, I've got to write it down.

I'm not going to remember it. If I can't remember the phrase, I won't know what to say next. And this whole thing is going to go horribly wrong. So I decided to hold the notes. And you know what, Neela, at the time, I felt like this was a massive failure. I was embarrassed about it. And I didn't watch it back because I just didn't want to see it. And I felt like, you know, what's happened to me?

This is my short-term memory has been my superpower. And as a broadcaster, it's very important to me what is going on. And I wrote a little post about it. And oh, my goodness, it's had hundreds of thousands of hits. I've had literally hundreds of messages from women expressing the same, exactly the same thing, not just broadcasters or journalists like us, you know, teachers, people running workshops, people doing job interviews, people just having conversations with their families and finding themselves saying,

oh, you know, can you get me the what's it that's next. of the DUDAR, because the words are just not coming to mind. Another hashtag, what's it next to the dood? Thanks very much to Zoe Kleinman. You can catch the rest of that interview on the Woman's Hour website and on BBC Sounds. She was on yesterday.

Now, I want to turn to the topic of social media and the particular way it can be a shop window into other people's fun and times perhaps a reminder of the fun that you're not having. We have a new novel from the author

Harriet Lane, who's in studio. Good morning. Hello. Great to have you with us. I loved this book. That's good to hear. Very much so. Let's talk about the title, Other People's Fun. How did it come to you? It's a line in the book. And when I wrote it, I remember thinking that's a nugget. And then when I came to the point where I needed to give it a proper title, that seemed the obvious choice. And it took me a moment when I was reading it because I didn't read anything about it before I delved in. And I was like, okay, I like the sub-title as well. If you want to be seen, then someone must watch.

Right, exactly, which is all about, that's exactly how I feel about social media. It's kind of the push-me-pullew thing that goes on. You know what? Let us listen to a little from the book. This is your protagonist, the narrator, Ruth, taking a little break from work. And then I allow myself a quick hit of Instagram

because I need the rocket fuel of some virtue signaling, a crappy aphorism, a blood-boiler hashtag or two. I always have a hunger to see what they've been up to. All these characters, old friends, cousins, people I knew vaguely at university, movie stars, the wives of celebrity chefs. I scroll through their posts as they show me their best lives. And yes, I despise them for it, for their clamorous desperation to be seen. Look at me, look at me!

I look I can't stop looking I know if we ever knew in the past that what we would be doing in our days is looking basically like at people's holiday snaps for hours a day what's your own relationship with social media like really uncomfortable

I love it and I hate it I am on Instagram I have a private account which seems important so really you know what I put out is kind of fairly mundane. I'm not on it a great deal. Kind of family stuff.

So are you a lurker like your protagonist? I am a lurker. I am a lurker. And there are lots of accounts that I rage follow. Yeah, I don't feel particularly good about myself when I'm... Well, it depends. I think if you're feeling up, if you're in a good place, I watch these characters cavorting.

And, yeah, as Ruth says, showing me their best lives. And I enjoy that. Did you see that the Cambridge word of Cambridge Dictionary word of the year is parasocial for people that we feel we have a connection with even though we've never met them? Yeah. I mean, I have quite a few parasocial relationships

that don't make me feel very good about myself. But you're not prepared to unfollow just yet. Somebody described it like menacing middle class situations. Where are you getting the inspiration from? I wonder. I don't know. You've got to work with what you've got, right? Because what I was thinking when I was reading the book

and the protagonist is Ruth and she's going through life. A divorce has taken place. Very interesting on that as well. But kind of reconnecting with people that she kind of vaguely knows and a lot of it is through literally the lens of a small screen.

But I was wondering were your friends kind of looking over their shoulders as you were writing this book. Not at all. I mean, I have a lot of very good, solid female friendships. I think the point of Ruth is quite isolated. I like writing about all three of my books, I think are about women at sort of turning points

when they're having to examine who they might be following some sort of episode. Transition. Transition, exactly. And I think that's kind of... So these are women who are really looking around trying to assemble a new sort of identity. I don't...

Yeah, in a way, I think also I put into my... my books and lots of my worst fears. And partly because my friendships are so important to me. There'd be moments over the last few years when I've just sort of thought, what would I do without them? And in a way, that's what this book is about. It's about, you know, she's quite isolated, Ruth. But she has made a friendship with a woman called Suki,

who is endlessly annoying. But she is holding on to some of those threads as kind of a, really a shadow of a friendship maybe or what it possibly could be. And I'm wondering what gave you the inspiration, I suppose, for kind of the underbelly of what could be female friendship. I think it's the interesting, the contrast between what you're seeing on social media and what you know is really a fascinating subject for me.

I mean, just in terms of, I think about it quite a lot. There are various accounts on Instagram that I do follow, and I do know a little bit about these people's real lives. And you know that there's no parity? Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, I'm sure all this lovely stuff is going on for them, but also, do you know what I mean? Other stuff is happening that for some reason they're not able to share or they don't want to go there.

But I sort of feel that in a way you've got a, there's a risk, isn't there? There's an obligation. If you're constantly pumping out amazing stuff and, you know, you are eliciting a certain sort of response, I mean, lots of people will look at that stuff and feel fully admiring and happy for that person. And I'm not always that virtuous. You know, sometimes these things enrage me.

But I think you can't necessarily control the way that that information is received. And you have to acknowledge that. Do you know what I mean? I have every right to feel cross-back about the nonsense. If they want somebody to watch, they don't get to decide who watches. Exactly. I have the power. I was reading that you said the fun thing for me as a writer is recognizing that you can find the sinister, the menacing in the every day. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's really important for me. I don't write books where, you know, you don't find dead bodies down alleyways and stuff. I mean, the drama is of a sort of certain register. I want it to be familiar. I mean, I think quite often what I'm interested in is everyday discomforts or sort of moments when you feel this is. And for some people, these, you know, difficulties with friendships or with relationships or with your children. or, you know, that sort of thing. Those are the stuff that we are exposed to every day.

We're not exposed to, thankfully, in most cases, you know, bodies in the back room. So that's important. It's like lean into that, you know. But you are an amazing observer of these small details, sometimes mundane, that will create such a picture. You talk about writing fiction as almost the polar opposite to journalism, both require observation, skills of observation. That's true.

Yeah. I mean, obviously with the journalism, you're sticking to the fact. And with the fiction, the weird thing is making stuff up. But yes, I mean, I've always been interested in my journalism as well, in the little kind of giveaways, the little ticks, the little, you know, the ways that in the olden days when I would interview people, the way that they talked to the waiter. Do you mean, those sorts of, that tells you. So telling.

Right. It tells you so much. I can't ignore that. Do you know what I mean? It's fun to dig in and to go, yes, this is a value. This is an important, you know, this is an observation

that is significant and you know it, because these are things we pick up on all the time. You talked about power there, and just coming back to that word, I know around 17 years ago you started losing your vision. And I also saw that you

talked about a certain powerlessness over the, issue off your sight. But I wonder how that is, that power, powerlessness when it comes to writing now. It is a strange thing because I do get to decide everything in my books. Yeah. I'm in charge. You know, I get to sort of take people in certain directions and things can happen to them

because of what I decide. And in my everyday life, I think I have learnt much more to be accepting. Yeah. and to trust my doctors, you know, what else can I do? So, but there's definitely a sort of... Some people don't accept. I find it more peaceful too. Yes, no, I mean, it is a great step that you've been able to do,

but it can be a very difficult place for people to get to. Yeah, I think that's really true. And especially if you're someone who's used to, as I used to be, if you're used to having lots of agency and sort of deciding things for yourself, it is weird handing lots of things over to people and who understands something that you really yourself can not fully understand, you know, in terms of what's happening to my vision. But I find it much, yeah, as I say, I've made my peace with that.

It's better that way, just if I accept it. Yes, I also, you were so eloquent speaking about fear, saying it can be as disabling as loss of vision. And for that first year, you were running on pure unadulterated horror, but that is unsustainable. And I'm glad to hear it's unsustainable. Yeah, I think it's a bit like grief. And it takes the similar amount of time, I think,

to wrap your head around the fact that your life is not the same as, you know, it's not what you expected it to be, something dramatic's happened. And there is a big process of adjustment. And yes, I mean, I think in a way the great thing, and I think I address this in the book as well when Ruth's talking about getting used to the fact of her separation in her husband's departure, there is a sort of a great relief that kicks in at the point where you're not feeling it every morning when you wake up, you know, just getting used to something. and then processing it allows you to get free of it.

There's also a great little passage where her friend Claire talks about how much when the husband was gone, even though it was unexpected, all the joys that she found with him gone, everything from, oh, I'm trying to remember little habits that he had. Or even trying to decide on sort of which cinema tick, what to go and see at the cinema or... Or his veruca plaster. We're leaving it at that.

No more spoilers. Of course, people will know you from Alice always as well that was adapted for stage back in 2019 Maybe others' people's fun will be on stage as well Dreamcasting for the character of Ruth Oh my goodness I don't know, someone like Rebecca Hall maybe Okay, let's leave it there

Well, we have actor Saskia Reeves on with me tomorrow Oh, she could do it. Oh, there you go, going to see her tonight at end at the National Theatre in London looking forward to that, of course she's in slow horses as well, you might be a huge fan of that and we will also be talking about UK linked women and children who are believed to be in camps and detention centres in Iraq and Syria

that will be with Professor Katzram Brown. I do hope you'll join me same time tomorrow right here on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, it's India here. I'm very excited to bring you the return of child. So we've been on the journey of an embryo all the way to a baby's first birthday.

and now we are going to enter the explosive life of the toddler because this is the perfect place to unpick the very complicated world of emotions, the emotions that affect us all. So come with us as over eight episodes we fall through the abundant and dizzying world of happiness, descend into the depths of fear and the gendered and dangerous world of anger, and then crawl, wobble and bounce our way through awe, love, anxiety, and surprise. From BBC Radio 4,

this is Child, with me, India Rackerson. Listen first on BBC Sounds.