Woman's Hour - The Power List Reveal Programme - Women in Sport

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

The Woman's Hour Power List 2023 reveal show is here! This is your chance to hear from the women on our list, showcasing the 30 most remarkable women in sport in the UK right now. Join Nuala McGovern, our judges Jessica Creighton, Ebony Rainford Brent and a studio audience live from the Radio Theatre.Producers: Emma Pearce and Alex Webb Presenter: Nuala McGovern

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to a very special edition of Woman's Hour. We are live in the radio theatre as we reveal the Woman's Hour Power List, showcasing the 30 most remarkable women in sport in the UK right now. Over the next hour, we will celebrate all of the women who have made the list, and I am delighted to say that so many of them on our list are here in our audience today. Welcome to you all. What a robust audience.

It is such an exciting time for women's sport in this country. After the success of the Lionesses last summer at the Euros, when England lifted a major football trophy for the first time since 1966, there has been more attention, more funding, more interest than ever before. And there's so much more to come this year. The Women's Ashes, the Cycling Women's Tour, the Netball Super League Grand Final and the Football World Cup, to name just a few. And a really wonderful aspect about this list is that it began with you our listener your suggestions went on to be sifted considered and debated by our expert panel and the list we have

here today is a product of your involvement so thank you and we want you to continue to be involved so get in touch with the program to text, it's 84844, text charge at the standard message rate, or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, and you can also, of course, email through our website. So we are just minutes away from revealing the power list, but I do want to first chat to two of our expert judges, the chair of our judging panel, journalist and sports broadcaster, Jessica Crichton. Good morning, Leela. Good to have you with us, Jessica, and World Cup winning cricketer and now broadcaster beside you, Ebony Rainford-Brent. Good morning. Good morning, Ebony. Now, alongside you had another two with you, the Olympic

gold medal winning hockey player, Sam Quek, also 11-time Paralympic champion, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson. And the four of you had the unenviable task of selecting the 30 women on the Women's Hour Power List. And I say that because it must have been something very tough to do, Jessica. Let me start with you. What was the process like? It was very, very difficult. It was so hard to sift through all these names and all these inspirational women and having to miss people off the list.

It was a privilege to be a part of this process, I have to say. Celebrating women in sport has always been a passion of mine. I can remember as young as, before I was even 10 years old, campaigning at school for girls to be able to wear trousers like the boys

because it got in the way of me playing football when I was in a skirt so you know celebrating women in sports and realising that there's that inequality that exists is something I've always been aware of but as it pertains to this list we had nearly 5,000 suggestions come in from people from the audience and we had to whittle that down to 30 names. So the names we missed off were absolutely incredible. The women on it are even more incredible. It was so difficult. But I think as a chair, one of the hardest parts was to make sure that we as all judges were looking at the evidence, using objective measures to make sure that the outcome was of the people on this list,

that they were making tangible change, real change, whether that be locally, nationally or globally. So some of the criteria and the categories. So we had five categories. One of them was sportswomen for athletes at the top of their game, generational talents in their sport and or using their platform to make a change. We had leaders. So everyone from coaches, managers, women working in politics and business, people that were inspiring others to get results on and off the field. Change makers, that's for the women that were committed to challenging the status quo, leaving a lasting legacy. Amplifiers was another

category, those women that elevate the status of women's sports, so for example, broadcasters, agents, media executives who help to shift perceptions and negotiate deals to get a greater prominence of women's sport and also grassroots because this is about elite level sport all the way down to grassroots and all everything in between for the grassroots category is those women that passionately make real change in their communities the volunteers who set up a girls' football club after school or a walking group to improve people's mental health. So we had such a wide spectrum of suggestions come in.

OK, so that kind of gives you an idea of what these women were up against. Ebony, speaking of, you know, the power list and power, you and your fellow judges are powerful, are competitive. You can put up a good fight, I have no doubt. But you know, Jessica has outlined how difficult it was there. Was it hard to find consensus? Yeah, I think the first stage, so we kind of had a number of different calls. And you know, we've been all over the place, getting hold of all of us. But we had a few calls. And the first one felt a little bit easier in the sense of you know we're getting it down we're getting some meaning behind it but there really

came a point where there were so many high quality people doing such amazing things um you know it was a real privilege actually because at least you get to delve more into their stories their histories why they do what they do the impact um and then the, that final me. We were arguing our part. You know, Tani knows what she's saying. And then Sam was in there. Then you're in. We were all kind of going for it. But I think that feeling that we left at the end of it,

when you look back and reflect on this, this is a real moment in time for women's sport, people driving change. And I think we all felt when we're completing that list with Emma and the team, you know, there's some real game changers people who are moving the dial and I felt privileged and honoured just to be part of that process fight for what we believed in but there's a lot of people doing some amazing work

and the Emma you mentioned is Emma Pierce who is producing at the program um you know what we we need to get on with it we We need to, like, start revealing. Are we ready for it? All right. Jessica, Ebony, take us from number 30 to 21. Okay, at number 30 is Ramla Ali. Ramla is a British Somali Olympic boxer, and she runs the Sisters Club, which is a free women-only boxing class.

Number 29 is Sarah Javid, the founder of a cycling group aimed at supporting Muslim women to discover the joys of cycling. At number 28 is Sue Anstis, who I believe we'll be hearing from a little bit later. Audience know who she is. She is the founder and CEO of the Fearless Women Consultancy Group and author of Game On, The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport. In the audience. Number 27 is Professor Laura McAllister, Deputy Chair of UEFA's Women's Football Committee and a member of the organisation's working group

on gender equality. At number 26, it's broadcaster Alex Scott. Alex was the first female pundit on the BBC's World Cup football coverage and became the first woman to host tv show football focus number 25 is nalette tucker nalette runs the suna sports academy trust a charity based in bradford which trains women to become tennis coaches at number 24 it's the ceo of lewis football club maggie murphy lewis f FC is the first gender equal club in the world

and has the same pay budgets for its women's and its men's teams. Number 23 is the highly decorated Paralympic rowing champion, Lauren Rolls. Lauren has spoken publicly about her experiences with depression and is an advocate for the LGBTQ plus community. At number 22 it's

sports agent Jo Tong. Jo represents some of the most high profile talent in the UK including footballers Leah Williamson, Jill Scott and Chelsea women's manager Emma Hayes. Number 21 is Tammy Parler. Tammy is CEO of the Women's Sports Trust, an organisation which aims to increase the visibility and impact of women's sport with a strong focus on its commercial viability. How wonderful. Sue Antus is here on stage with me. You just heard about Sue, an author, podcast host, a filmmaker, a co-founder of the Women's Sport Collective which strives for gender equality in the sports industry. Also the CEO of Fearless Women, a consultancy which works to drive change

across women's sport among many other things. And you are on the power list as one of our amplifiers so in recognition of that extensive work you have done over the past 30 years to raise the profile of women's sports congratulations and how does it feel to be on the power list today amazing absolutely amazing especially when you see those other names that are there too yeah very very exciting and you've been working for the past few decades in women's sport. And I'd be curious, and I suppose it's really

with that backdrop of some of those names as well. Where do you see women's sport right now? I do feel we're in a better place than we've ever been. Certainly in my lifetime, things have shifted and they're definitely moving faster

now than ever before. And I think about the, you've mentioned, so the professional contracts, the funding that's coming into it, the crowds, the visibility. So definitely we're in a good place. Still work to be done,

but we're in a much better place than we have been. What is it you think that, if I said to you, what's the biggest challenge? Probably funding and investment, I think, is a really key issue. So more money coming in and representation. So more women in senior roles in those decision-making money coming in and representations and more women in senior roles in those decision-making positions,

whether that's on boards or in senior roles in terms of coverage and funding and issues like what women wear for sport, et cetera. Okay, so even down to, yeah, some of the stuff that might seem the day-to-day and others that are those larger strategic visions, but you have devoted your life to sport. Why did you decide that area that

industry I think for me I love sport and I love women's sport but I think sport is so powerful culturally in terms of how it impacts society and I think if we can have women celebrated equally alongside men and they have that equal profile it impacts it sort of transcends sport really in terms of the impact it can have for women and girls and for how men view women too I feel it can be really powerful. Do you think that has changed? It's changing it's not changed enough but it's definitely moving in the right direction and I think the more we can showcase amazing powerful successful women winning and having that profile in sport that that will change attitudes so they have to do something like a 1966 sort of trajectory as long as then but you know you've said in the

past that one day we won't talk about women's sport do you think you'll see that when we talk about sport to sport to sport I hope so I think women's sport doesn't need to just replicate what men's sport has done I guess that's a message I feel is quite important we want to have that equality and that equal access and funding but it can be different to men's sport and in some cases better than men's sport too so I wouldn't just want women's sport to feel it has to mirror what men's sport has done in the past yeah and do you think it's set up to do that because perhaps at times it starts by mirroring because that that was the status quo that is what was there that was the model uh to follow do you think it's forged its own path it's beginning to

i think if you look at the crowds that are coming in to watch women's sport some of the sponsors and backers of women's sport too i do feel uh there is a different audience for it and we're beginning to see a shift there that people are taking advantage of it and maximizing and I come back to the women's euros again with England lifting that trophy do you think other sports felt a bounce from that as well as women's football I do feel that they did I there's that balance isn't there that it is amazing that women's football has led the way you know rising tide floats all boats etc and it is good and positive i wouldn't want uh women's sport necessarily to follow men's when football becomes the sport that you know has the most in terms of funding and profile so there are so many amazing sports out there as represented by so many of the women that

have been nominated driving those sports too so I kind of hope that all sports can have that profile too. And how do you think you get those bums on seats getting those fans in that then of course attracts the funding and investment? Yeah a lot of it is around the free-to-air coverage so the BBC coverage which has been fantastic for women's sport I think taking the product so people can see it and experience it will then encourage others to come in and we you know we're seeing sellout crowds we're seeing record women's sport Tami's on the list there the women's sport trust viewing figures the amount of people that are watching women's sport now and realising who knew it's amazing and then they'll kind of come and follow and crowds will appear too.

Yes so you mentioned mentioned the viewing figures there and I wonder about demand for women's sports. One of the criticisms often named at women's sport is, well, if more people were watching, people would be paid better. People aren't interested in women's sport. Do you think that's the kind of general consensus still? And is that view perhaps changing

because of what we've seen in the last couple of years with sellout crowds and things like that? That probably is the one argument that we have to fight the most of, that the quality of women's sport isn't there. If it was, it would have the audience and then it would have the funding. But I do think that we're beginning to get the data that shows that isn't just the case. And as you say, we get sell-out crowds at the Euros. It's not just crowds, it's viewing figures as well. Absolutely, absolutely.

And those numbers, but high quality product that's, you know, when we've got good quality women's sport being shown and it's had the same investments of the same level of production that men's sport has had, then absolutely, why would you not want to watch it?

It's amazing sport in the same way that men's sport is. I like that line. Why would you not want to watch it? Sue, congratulations again. Wonderful to have you with us today on the Woman's Hour Power List. Ebony, Jessica, I think it is time to do the countdown. This time, off we go.

20 to 11. Here we go. Number 20 is Faduma Ollo. Faduma is a reporter with Sky Sports News, committed to amplifying the stories of women in sport from diverse backgrounds. Number 19 is a non-executive director of the Rugby Football League, Dr. Rimla Akhtar. Rimla also chairs the organisation's inclusion board. Number 18 is Manisha Taylor, the first woman to hold the role of assistant head of coaching in men's professional football in England. Number 17 is Emma Booth who took a public stand against major golf brand TaylorMade about their lack of golf products for women. At number 16 it's teaching assistant Samaya Caesar. Samaya is a grassroots football coach very popular amongst our audience. Samaya is a grassroots football coach who inspires girls in

the local community by taking them to women's Super League matches. Number 15 is the first female director of BBC Sport, Barbara Slater. Barbara has grown the portfolio of negotiated rights deals for women's sport. Number 14 is the Women's Development Manager at the Irish FA Foundation, Gail Redmond. Gail is responsible for Northern Ireland's football strategy for women and girls. Number 13 is Jodie Owensley. Jodie is a professional rugby player and honorary president of UK Deaf Sport. Jodie shares videos about what life is like as a woman playing sport with hearing loss. Number 12 is the founder of the Blue Tits Chill Swimmers Group, Sian Richardson. Her open water swimming community, get this,

now has 100,000 members around the world. And number 11 is Fiona Thomas, a highly respected journalist shining a light on women's sport at the Daily Telegraph. Her work has a focus on the data gap in women's health. Thank you. focus on the data gap in women's health. Now, I do have number 12 on our power list, Sian Richardson from Pembrokeshire in Wales beside me. Good morning. Good morning. Congratulations. Oh thank you. It's so great to have you here and I also want to let our listeners know that we felt it was so important to celebrate those in

the grassroots sector which you are bringing around real change in your community and you started the Blue Tit Chill Swimmers, try saying that fast. Nearly 10 years ago. So this is a cold water swimming community, which boasts, as we were hearing, 100,000 members worldwide. What was your initial reaction when you heard you're on the list? Well, speechless. And that doesn't happen very often.

Okay. I normally have plenty to say, but I was speechless. And I suppose the interesting reaction for me was I went straight back to my school days when I was that person who was no good at sport and was treated as such in school and it was it interested me that I went straight back there and I just wanted look at this we can all do anything let's talk about what you do because you have inspired so many people and that is a part of the reason of why you're here today um what is it about cold

water swimming that has invigorated you and all these people who have followed you into that freezing cold water well I never envisaged any of this when I started doing it and it's so what what has grown over the years has not shocked me but has intrigued me as well that the this act of going into the water so I'm always asked of course what is it about the cold water? It's what happens around the cold water. The cold water is that anchor, but it's the community around it. So I listen to a lot of people saying, I could never do it.

I don't know how you do it. I don't like cold showers. I don't like being cold, all of these things. It's the community, the blue-tit community or the community around cold water. So we don't want to do something like this. We've been told it's good for us, but I don't know. I don't like it. we don't want to do something like this we've been told it's good for us but oh I don't know I don't like I don't want to do it so then we we find the courage to do it we turn up then we find the courage to get undressed and get into whatever

it is that we're wearing to get in the water but but I'm going to stop you there for one moment because even that can be a massive thing for somebody to be in a swimming costume or whatever in front of other people you know and to put themselves out there really that's this is it this is the first big thing we often hear people saying oh I wished I'd done this earlier I've been stalking the blue tits for six months 12 months but that's a natural thing to do because we're looking at the pictures on the pages maybe. Do I look like the person in there? Am I going to be accepted? Are they going to make me swim six miles?

You're looking for all of this confirmation. And I should say on your website, for those that haven't seen it yet, and it's great, it is fun and fabulous. There's people in really bright colours, all body sizes and types, and it seems like a very fun, inclusive atmosphere. It is. And you don't necessarily know this until you turn up.

So you turn up, you've made this decision. You're brave. I've done it. I've done it. I'm here. Then you make the decision to actually get undressed. It could be a swimsuit, trunks. It could be a wetsuit. It doesn't matter what it is. It's still massive to you. Then, of course, you go into the cold water. So the adrenaline has been building. And when you hit that cold water, it is cold. But the community around you are encouraging you to go forth. And so in you go, in you go.

And then you get in the water. It's cold. Massive. Oh, my goodness me. And then you're starting to realize, well, it's really cold and I'm not sure I like it, but I'm still alive. I'm still here. And people are telling you around you, you are amazing done and then you do it and then you your skin adapts you get used to it and that's when it happens you look around it's amazing I'm alive I've done it people are saying well done and of course the best bit is coming you're getting out you know you know that there's coffee there's cake there's biscuits there's people who haven't swum because lots of blue tits don't swim, we don't mind. They're waiting there with a fire or a robe or whatever.

Perfect. And then, of course, your family tell you you're amazing, your friends tell you you're amazing. And slowly, slowly, slowly, you really start to believe that you are the amazing person, that you are, but for whatever reason you'd forgotten that or you didn't realise that. And that is just the best thing and it builds and builds and builds so when people say it's changed their lives it doesn't

happen overnight it's this gradual building of actually I'm okay I can go into cold water I can do this thing that a lot of people say they can't do and you really do start to feel amazing you don't need to go in very often. You know, once a week even. It doesn't matter. And you don't need to stay in very long. The most important thing. I'm trying to convince you lot to come and see us. Well, this is what I was just about to say.

Sian, we met in the green room a few moments ago. I'm nearly, I'm on the fence. I'm nearly convinced about this cold water thing. I'm not sure. Get in there. But I was more intrigued about you because I think one of the things that has always struck me, I'm sure we've all had to do it in this space,

is the skill of influence, getting people on board with your message. And I'm intrigued about how you got to that point. Is it something that you've always just, the passion flows out of you? Have you had to develop how you bring people on board and lead? What have you done personally that's allowed you to get 100,000 members together? I was brought up in a family by a mother who was quite a strong woman and who always used to just say, do something. If you don't like it, don't do it again. And so I was always encouraged to do things that sometimes I didn't like and didn't do again. And I've always quite liked to challenge, but I was driven to do this really because I wasn't very well and I was

diagnosed with depression and I came again. My mother would have been like, what do you mean depression? Come on, shoulders back, off you go, don't be ridiculous. So I was diagnosed with depression and I came again. My mother would have been like, what do you mean depression? Come on, shoulders back. Off you go. Don't be ridiculous. So I was quite embarrassed about it. And somebody said, you need to start running, which was ridiculous thing to say to me. I mean, absolutely ridiculous at that time. So I started running in the dark because I was so embarrassed. And then I signed up for a half marathon. Ridiculous. It was unachievable at the time in my brain. That was unachievable. And I did it. And then I quite liked it because I liked this. My family saying, well done. You're amazing. My friends, well done. You're amazing. I thought this is actually quite nice. I quite like it. I like the attention.

And so I just carried on doing things. And so that I suppose where partly where my passion comes from, when people say I can't do something because I'm this or I'm that, or I can't possibly. Yes, you can. You can. And I'll help you do it. All these Bluetits around the world, they're the ones who are pushing it forward. You know, yes, we've got HQ in Pembrokeshire, and we've got my family who are all supportive, and we've got the people who run the groups, the admins, they're all brilliant. They, as well as the 100,000 Bluetits, are the ones doing this now. Come on, we can do it. Together we can do it. You don't have to be anything. You don't have to be an amazing swimmer. You don't have to be whatever. Just come on, let's start little by little.

So I think it comes from... I'm nearly sold. I'm nearly sold. Yeah, nearly. Jessica, you going in? I mean, when I first saw it, I said, definitely, definitely not. But now that I'm listening to you, I'm like, you know, maybe I should actually give that a try. Maybe, maybe. I've now said it on live radio. Where would I do this? If I live in London, I'm not going to jump in the Thames, am I?

Am I? Yes. Yeah. So in London, we have the tooting tits and we have the Tottenham tits. And so you can, so what do you do? We've got a website on there is a map and our logos where all the groups are on the map. You click on the logo, you join the Facebook group, you go along and swim because anybody can put swims on there. So I might say five o'clock on Porcelli Beach

tomorrow night you come along and then somebody else will do it so you just join and what constitutes kind of a safe open place for for someone to swim well they're thinking about doing this there are lots of places I mean a lot of places like are run by businesses so you turn up and you pay to go and swim in lakes particularly in the built-up areas you so you know that that is very safe it's it's life-guarded and it's got changing rooms and it's all very lovely and some people choose to do that or they have no choice they have to do that or in my case out in Pembrokeshire we just rock up on a beach and we we go swimming and there are apps to tell you about the water quality you know if that's if

it's something that is important to check in your area in pembrokeshire we're very fortunate we we can just just about swim anywhere but join a group that's the best way to get started join a group it's really good advice we've got no excuse now have we yeah you haven't exactly i love it so um okay so we find your swimming area that you can swim in, maybe not anywhere, but you've given lots of suggestions there. And I was wondering, now that you are a seasoned, open water, cold swimmer on the Woman's Hour power list, do you just run into the icy cold water now? No. No, I don't. No.

And I really don't. So I very much believe in the power of the community. I live above a beach. I have every opportunity to go and swim on this beach or dip in the sea on this beach every single day. If I go alone, I'll go and look at it and go, no, it doesn't look very nice today. Oh, no, it's not doing it for me. And I mean, I perhaps will go in. But if there's somebody else with me, I'm as brave as anything. I'll for me and I mean I perhaps perhaps will go in but if there's somebody else with me I'm oh I'm as brave as anything I'll go in and I'll do it but I still look at that water wherever it is and go oh I know it's cold but I know I know that prize that's coming now I know if I pluck up the courage to go in and stay in for two minutes you don't need to stay in any

longer than that I know that I am going to feel amazing because I still, all this time on, I still think I'm a superhero when I go into the water, no matter how many years I've been doing it. Well, you are a superhero. You're on the Woman's Hour of Power list. Sian Richardson, thank you so much. Thank you.

Now, we are into our top ten. Shall we get Jessica and Ebony to count us down? Number ten to number six. Yeah, this is exciting. Okay, at number ten is the fastest woman in British history, Dina Asher-Smith. At the 2019 World Athletics Championships, Dina became the first Briton to win three medals. Away from the track, Dina has spoken out about how periods can impact sportswomen's performances and about racial injustice.

Number nine is the eight-time Paralympic equestrian gold medalist Sophie Christensen. Sophie is a disability rights campaigner. She's also a full-stack software developer and is hoping to compete in an impressive fifth Paralympic Games in Paris at 2024. Number eight is the new director of the Women's Professional Game at the England and Wales Cricket Board, Beth Barrett-Wild. Beth has been instrumental in the success of the Women's 100 competition, which launched back in 2021. Number seven is the Arsenal and England footballer, Lotta Vummoij. Get that right.

Part of the team who won last year's Euros. Lotta was the driving force behind the team's open letter to the Prime Minister, which called for equal access to football for girls in the UK. At number six is Helen Hardy. Helen set up Faudies in 2020, the first official retail platform in the world dedicated to women's football merchandise. She commentates on both the Women's Super League and Women's Championship matches for BBC Local Radio. We are moving on up. Let us turn to number eight, Beth Barrett-Wild, who has, of course, come in on number eight on our power list,

has been promoted to Director of the Women's Professional Game at the England and Wales Cricket Board, ECB, having previously been head of the 100 women's competition and female engagement. And what we're also taking a look at here on the women's power list is about those that are ensuring greater visibility for the women's game by pushing for sporting glory and also increased funding as we've been hearing. Now if you're not familiar with the 100 it has seen it seen as a really a seismic moment and also movement in women's sports since its launch in 2021. It gives equal weight to both the men's and women's competitions and almost all the matches are taking place at the same venue on the same day with equal prize money for both competitions.

Welcome and congratulations for being on the power list. Thank you very much. How does it feel? I'm buzzing. I think, yeah, look, we've known for a week or so now, and just trying to keep the news to myself has been quite difficult. But just listening to some of the stories, listening to Sian speak before coming up there, and Sue, of course, before, just blown away, really. And, yeah, really proud to be on this list. Well, I think everyone's really proud that you are here too.

Let's get into your role. I mentioned there as the head of the 100th Women's Competition. You were there from the very beginning, before it even had a name. What was it like to try and, I was about to say, give birth to that or bring it to fruition? Yeah, really challenging. I think it was actually originally due to launch in 2020, but we obviously had the COVID pandemic, which meant that we had to cancel it in that first year, which at the time felt like it was a heartbreaking decision, actually, because so much work had gone into had gone into it it's you know a brand new competition being launched from the start for men and women which is really important and part of the sort of the very fabric of of the hundreds

but yeah that heartbreaking decision in 2020 but we came back in 2021 stronger and I think actually at that time I remember there was this narrative building around women's sport and around is women's sport going to be able to bounce back strongly after the pandemic? You know, we'd built up this wave of momentum. I think the last big event prior to that moment in March 2020 was over 80,000 people watching the Women's T20 World Cup at the MCG in Melbourne. And yeah, there was this narrative sort of developing around,

oh, is it going to be able to come back? And I think what we've seen is actually it's come back stronger, bigger, better, brighter. Why do you think? I think, well, from the hundreds perspective, it almost actually gave us a chance to catch up with that momentum. It gave us a chance to take a step back and be like, right, how can we make the women's competition in particular as big and as scalable as possible? And you mentioned it there in the introduction. So every single match day we have is a double header.

So we have the women and the men playing in the same venues on the same days for the same teams in the same kits for the same prize money and I think we were able to really live those values with that extra year of planning and sort of preparation for it. Well congratulations on that. Lots of questions as you can imagine for me I'll try and keep it short. The programme ends at 11. Sorry I was going to take this in. Anyway congratulations first of all. One of the things that actually we debated a lot was about impact. What is the impact? And for me, the 100 has a lot. That goes from visibility, broadcasting, grassroots, the performance.

There's just so many. For you, which one have you been most proud of as you've seen the 100 develop? Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's probably a few things. I think the audience growth in particular. think you know really seeing the number of people coming through to watch the matches so we've had two editions of the competition now and we've had over 500 000 people come to watch the women's matches average attendance of over 10 000 which is just you know from a standing start that's enormous for the visibility of women's

cricket and women's sports and so that's that's hugely important and that's actually really important when you get down into kind of the the sort of the conversation cricket and women's sports. So that's hugely important. And that's actually really important when you get down into kind of the conversation around how do we grow it further around market dynamics, the financing, generating those revenue streams. But I think the biggest one for me actually is the perception shift around what cricket is. So like we talk about how cricket,

you know, the traditional formats, it's got a perception around it being a very traditionally male, white, middle close their eyes they think of yeah men playing cricket in whites and I think what I think the hundreds enabled us to do is almost reimagine what cricket is and who it's for so it's almost given us this amazing second chance to make a brilliant first impression about the sport and we know for example that around 45 percent of the audiences whether that's in venue or watching on broadcast are are actually new to cricket, so they've never seen cricket before. So perhaps they don't have those preconceived ideas about it,

and for them, they're seeing it as a sport that is played by men and women on the same platform. So I'm a mother of two children, so I've got a little girl and a little boy, and I think that's one of the things that really excites me, is that they can come along to a game and aspire to have the same future in the sport, and that wasn't something that was available for me as I was growing up.

I was very much the only girl playing cricket in my environment. So I think that perception shift around the sport is something that I'm really proud and excited about for the future. And also, you know, we talked about impact and I'm just talking about England at the moment, but just come back from India, anybody who follows cricket, they had the WPL, which is the Women's Premier League sold for 500 million and a lot of our England girls are playing in it unbelievable tournament and it's quite clear that the hundreds had an impact on that you know the big bash the hundred and now the momentum to the global game players are getting paid you know in a level how does it feel as well not just impacting here but making a shift that's now

gone global oh absolutely and I think a lot of things went into launch that women's premier league but I think actually what the hundreds done I'm absolutely convinced of it it provided that proof of concept for the BCCI so that's the the governing body for cricket in India I think it provided that almost that proof of concept that there is this big scalable mass market appeal behind women's cricket and hopefully gave them a bit of a shove actually and I think what the women's premier league's doing in India now it's completely shifted the market economics of women's cricket and I think women's sports actually so it's launched this March I think it's already the second sort of highest revenue streams compared to the WNBA in America so yeah

look the amount of money for example that some of the female players can earn now is life-changing and it's happening, you know, the progression is happening very quickly. And I was going to ask about that actually, about the money, because in 2022 women's salaries for the 100 doubled from the year before. That sounds good, but with the top earning female player earning just over 31,000, men's salaries on the other hand start at 30 and go up as high as 125,000 you know we've talked about the same playing on the same day the same game how can that change I mean does it require something like what India has done as Ebony was describing to be able to get those salaries higher yeah I think whenever I come on Women's Hour I've been on a couple of times now

I always get grilled on equal pay which is is absolutely fine because it's a really healthy place to be to have that conversation. We have to talk about it. It's the thing that's going to really hold us to account, actually. And we know that we still have a long way to go. Sue mentioned it when she was talking earlier. There are still disparities between word around the women's game and I think about getting too cliche about it we are on a journey I think when I first joined the ECB it was around nine years ago or so now I actually worked in the media team for the England

women's side and I remember writing the press release to announce the first wave of professional contracts for England women's players so that was nine years ago we had 18 of those since then we've now got I think we've still got 18 of those the money that they earned through those have gone up we've also got 80 professional domestic players alongside the 100 so look there are more earning opportunities than ever before we know we need to close that gap but I think what we're trying to do at the 100 is that equal levels of investment into what we're doing so around the event presentation around the the quality of the stage that we create for the games we played on and then if we can keep doing those things keep investing in the right areas then pay will go up alongside that. I'm sure Beth there'll be lots of people listening working in roles where they're also trying to fight for parity as you did

with 100 competition how do you suggest or how do you advise those people because you have to start conversations often in what are very traditional spaces yeah it's a great question i think in my role actually when i first came into this well when i first started working on the hundreds um i was having to do a lot of a lot of pushing a lot of like reminding people that this is a gender balance competition it is a men's and women's competition we need to make sure we're given equal levels of prominence and yeah I probably did have to do a bit more cajoling what's brilliant now actually is that it is very much a part of the fabric of what we do and if anything I've kind of done myself out of a job with the 100 because it's such second nature for everybody within the team now they know that if we're putting out for example a piece of marketing

about the competition it will have a male player and a female player directly alongside each other so I think it is just about you know making sure that you're vocal initially and just trying to really you know explain the why and I think especially in cricket like we really recognize if we want to future-proof cricket as a sport it has to be relevant for everybody and that is ultimately what the 100 is all about. It's about throwing cricket stores open to more people, especially families and young people. And really sort of, yeah,

the relevance of the women's game within it cannot be underestimated. I definitely felt that. I don't know if anyone's been to a 100 match, but it's bright, it's loud, it's fun. There's music, there's a live DJ, there's dancers, mascots running around everywhere, flamethrowers as the players come out.

I'm not sure we had flame throwers. It's a marketing idea. You can take that one for free. It just felt like a great vibe and what you've created is incredible. Will that continue? Are there more ideas to bring into that 100 competition to make it even more accessible? Absolutely and I think that's one of the key things with it, actually, is how we can fuse this world-class sport, so the world-class cricket,

the cricket has to be brilliant on the field, but how we fuse that with entertainment off-field. So we have a brilliant partnership with BBC introducing actually in terms of the music side of things. So we do have live music at every game. We have in-house DJs. We do have some sort of, yeah, we have quite a lot of pyros. Yeah, yeah, pyros.

Just to make it fun and colourful, yeah it is it's about that vibrancy um you know the the new teams that we've created um they're relevant they're exciting brands um and it's i think it's really captured the imagination so yeah hopefully uh more of the same this summer i'm interested a bit like i was asking sean a moment ago about you personally now so you're number eight of course this is pretty amazing but if you're to be on it let's say in another list down the line what are some of your personal ambitions you've now had a new job opportunity you're going up the ladder but what are your personal ambitions you know in this space as well what would you like to drive forward yeah I think I've been very fortunate actually I've been given loads of opportunities and I've been able to combine my passion which is uh cricket women's sport cricket um with a career and I think um just continuing

sort of yeah to assume leadership roles within the game um I think I've been yeah lucky to work at the UCB um but that doesn't mean I won't work in other sports moving forwards I think there's a lot of brilliant stuff going on cricket isicket is the only sport that exists. But yeah, I want to just keep just driving things forward, keep driving change. I think that's the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning is, and this is where I'm lucky, I know that everything that I do today will make a difference for tomorrow.

And I think it's just continuing to have opportunities and roles like that. Are you still buzzing? I am still buzzing, yeah, very much so. Thank you so much, Bette Barrett-Wild. Number eight on the Woman's Hour Power List. Are you ready to hear the top five? Yes?

Sure? They don't sound sure, Nuala. Really sure? Yes. Okay, let's do it. Jessica, Ebony, to reveal our top five. Here we go. Number five is Heather Dunnell, the founder of the Scottish Women's Walking Group, which has grown to over 25,000 members. The group has enabled women to connect and walk together, with 100 group warts happening every month. Number four is Ellie Downey. Ellie won 12 medals during her senior career as a gymnast for Great Britain.

And in 2020, Ellie spoke out about abusive behaviour in British gymnastics. As a result of this, the White Review published last year found systematic abuse in the sport. The chief executive of British Gymnastics said Ellie's bravery has helped found systematic abuse in the sport the chief chief executive of british gymnastics said ellie's bravery has helped shape the future of the sport at yeah deserved round of applause there at number three is olympic swimmer alice deering alice is one of the four co-founders of the Black Swimming Association, an organisation aimed at improving diversity in swimming from grassroots to the elite level.

Alice became the first black woman to swim for Great Britain in an Olympics when she competed at Tokyo 2020. Number two is the Director of Women's Football at the FA, Baroness Sue Campbell. During her tenure, the number of women and girls playing the game has doubled. Sue's work for over 50 years in the sector has led to her appointment as a crossbench peer to the House of Lords and a damehood for her services to sport.

And the woman who tops the first ever Women's Hour Women in Sport Power List is someone I'm sure you've all heard of and likely been inspired by. Number one is the captain who took England to Euro 2022 victory. Winning the first major trophy since 1966, it is, of course, Leah Williamson.

Leah and her fellow lionesses successfully lobbied the government to ensure equal opportunities for girls and boys in school sport. She's also spoken out about gay rights ahead of the Men's World Cup in Qatar. Leah is also about to release a children's book which shows young people that they can be a leader at any age. Big congratulations to everyone on this year's PowerList. I think you're ready to hear from our winner now. I was lucky enough to go to break the news to Leah Williamson when I joined her at the Arsenal training ground.

I have some good news for you. I can reveal that you are number one on the Women's hour power list 2023 celebrating the most remarkable women in sport so congratulations thanks very much thank you i'm not sure i'm deserving of that but thanks very much well i think our listeners so many of them put you forward they really do believe that you are how does it feel it's lovely um i think it's always nice I'm just trying to do my job and be as good of a person at the same time so if people recognize that as as this then that that's really nice to be thought of that way I think. The Women's Hour Power List it's full of outstanding women it can be boardroom executives in sport in the UK or grassroots coaches or indeed players like you

and we celebrate all their achievements what is the benefit do you think of highlighting women in this way? I think that as women we've been living in the shadows maybe where where we know that we have the ability to to step up um so I think when we when we do recognize women like this um when there is recognition I think it's it's great because it shows that next person you know if you can't see it you can't be it um it's something that I really love um as a say and so yeah I think that whole concept of shine a light on those that are already doing it so that those below or you know aspiring to be in those positions can can believe that there is a place for them in that world so

so to speak and now you're number one on the list how is it feeling because I know I just sprung it yeah um my mum will be happy um yeah no it's it's really nice I'm yeah slightly slightly taken back by that so yeah very appreciative well we're delighted uh that you are number one on the woman's hour power list now you mentioned your mum there and you did pay tribute to your mum recently on social media saying she's my mum but she's always been a mum to anyone that has ever needed one and I love her for that um you mentioned she's going to be thrilled yeah yeah this latest accolade um but she sounds like a very special person uh what role would you say she has played in your success I think uh my mum I always say she she sees even what my heart tries to hide

um and I think she just knows me in a way that you know woman to woman mother to daughter um she's known when when I've been vulnerable and she kind of knows how to support me off the back of that um she's always taught me to be humble she's always taught me to be be inquisitive and sort of search for for new information all the time so I think that's maybe one of my greatest strengths uh sort of trying to be a sponge and taking as much as I can to just continue to try and be better so I think that's I owe that to her for sure and you talk about what your heart tries to hide what's that I think you know sometimes in the nature of what I do and how competitive stressful it can be sometimes and you know you're under constant review and to manage those emotions within yourself whilst also trying to live life

you know I have a life outside of sport as well and I think when I when I go back into that world she can just sometimes see if if I am struggling or you know things that we maybe wouldn't vocalize i'r byd hwnnw, gallai hi weld os ydw i'n anodd, neu bethau nad ydyn ni'n gallu ei gynharu'n dda. Ac hyd yn oed os nad ydym yn siarad amdano, mae'n debyg ei fod yn gwybod sut i ddod i ffwrdd â'r amserau pan fyddwn i'n ymwneud â fy hun. Ydym ni'n mynd yn ôl i ffwrdd anhygoel? Dwi ddim yn gwybod, dweud i mi. Mae'n enwedig i ni i gyd pan oedd y Lionesses yn the Euros last summer making history with your team. And after you won the tournament, you and your teammates, including fellow powerlister Lotte Wubben Moy,

called for the government then to create better access to football for girls. They recently set out the new standards for equal access to sports, making it clear boys and girls should be offered the same sports during PE and also extracurricular time in schools. Were you always confident that would happen? Yeah, I think it's... You can't argue with the fact that we all believe it's in the best interest of young people to be active.

I think we maybe needed that little bit of not proof but 90 000 people turned up to wembley and the success of the summer i'm like right i think we're here to stay now and i think this is a genuine interest of of people and how can we make it yeah how can we just how can we make this the new norm basically and i think that was always in our favor so to speak when we were when we were advocating for that change yeah so you really had to win the euros i think it was always in our favor so to speak when we were when we were advocating for that change yeah so you really had to win the euros i think it was a good it was a good thing to have in in the locker um but i think yeah just an opportunity to show you know the home euros in itself so that uh will take place but we don't know how effective those measures will be yeah

to you and latte will be you know looking at it really closely along with so many others but what would you like to see happen those next days i think the equal access is really important that's an easy change you know um you've obviously got a term and a half or whatever left of the year i think then when people are planning for next in the summer and for next year's curriculum i think it should be equal that should be the first thing I think that we change and then I think the the perception and then the you know we have a responsibility to then push those girls to try new things and I always say if a girl chooses not to play football then it's good she's had a choice in the first place I'll take that any day instead of somebody choosing for her. But yeah, I hope, you know, hopefully we'll reach out to the schools and really, you know, explain the benefits to them as well

for anybody that's maybe not so much of a believer as we are. But yeah, I don't think it'll be the hardest thing in the world to implement, hopefully. But we won't see the real change, what, 5, 10, 15 years maybe. How does it feel for, and you can tell me if this is the way you have experienced it, but for your voice to be taken ever so much more seriously after the Euros? Yeah, I think, like I say, we've lived in the shadows for a long time as female footballers. I've watched people before me have, and I'd say, you know, a lot more knowledge

and a lot more experience and maybe could have, if they were in my position now, what impact could they have had on the world? So I think as a team, we owe it to those women. The circumstances have changed and the position we're in now is a platform that people are listening to us speak from. So I don't want to look back.

I just don't want to waste the opportunity that we have now I was reading that you fear about not using every moment or making the most of it where does that come from and I was wondering as well I was like there was quite a lot of pressure to have to you know make the most of every moment and I know obviously for a sports person at your level yeah you are thinking about the time that you're going to be on that pitch yeah um you know and it's in a certain number of years but but talk me through that thinking the only thing that my parents and my family have ever wanted from any of us is to be happy if we're happy if we're being good people you know if we're projecting the version of ourselves into the world that we want to, then that's enough for them.

And so I think that that just comes from when I know those circumstances are right. And, you know, no matter what happens tomorrow, I'd be very happy with what come before me. And I just I don't ever want to look back and ever think, what if or have any regrets? Do you have any so far? No, no, I don't think so. I think. Yeah. think what if or have any regrets do you have any so far no no i don't think so i think yeah and i you know maybe a few there was moments but i think overall i've always stuck to my morals and my values and there's not much more you can do than that according to bbc analysis from last year when comparing average player pay between the premier league and the women's super league top tiers of

men and women's football it's's difficult to make exact comparisons, but their findings suggest that on average, men are earning 100 times what the women do. In your view, the steps, what are they that need to be taken to narrow that, if not equalise? Fans' interest in the game. That's why we play football. It's a service. It's a service to the fans, to the clubs. We's why we play football it's for the it's a service it's a

service to the fans to the clubs um we need to keep growing our fan base we need people to turn up consistently um week in week out for these these games and you know these these numbers are getting bigger but they need to be consistent and i think that's the quickest way to to close the gap is it going to happen i hope so i hope so i'm not sure i'll see that gap closed in my in my playing time but yeah hopefully are there enough male allies to get you to the next level i hope so um ian wright is obviously a major one for us um and when he speaks he speaks from the heart i believe um the only thing i'm ever concerned of is that as a growing sport we used as a stepping stone

into men's I think it needs to be a real if people are going to get involved they need to be they need to be invested and they need to have our best interests at heart but I think that that we do have good male allies and I think especially the relationship at England, Gareth Southgate, Serena you know the respect between them I think that's what we're asking for, a level of respect. And then if people have something to give, I think they should, as we all should, and all try to be allies of anyone that needs us. Let's talk about success. 2023 is shaping up to be another really exciting year for women's sport,

women's football in particular. The World Cup has been held in New Zealand and Australia this summer. We're already working out what time do we need to be up at. You won the Euros. How do you feel, particularly with leadership and what you're talking about there, the amount of pressure, is it more, is it less than previous to the Euros? I think definitely more in terms of we're a team to beat. You win a tournament, you're the one that everybody's coming after.

So that makes makes sense um but in terms of playing at home euros and that the longer that goes on and the longer you think how much impact we could have look at what's happened post euros you know we knew that that could be the case so in terms of that pressure i think there's a lot less we're on the other side of the world in our own little bubble. And especially for all of us as players, all we've ever done is gone out and tried to enjoy it as much as possible. That definitely won't change. The joy after the matches, whether it was that one in the Euros or, you know, of course, Manny since then as well.

It's just got this feverish following, I think. Does it ever get old? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I think that's why I love playing for England. That's why I love being in that squad because it's, yeah, it's happy. It's happiness. Hopefully your place as number one

on the Women's Hour Power List will be an honour that you will enjoy and never forget. And congratulations again. Thank you so much. Number one on the Woman's Hour, Powerless 2023, Leah Williamson. And if you would like to watch the moment yourself, if you're not in this room with us right now,

just head to BBC Sounds and Women's Hour social media to watch that back. I highly recommend seeking it out. What do you make of that, Jessica? Isn't she something? Every time. Oh, you know, it's her birthday tomorrow. I want to wish her a happy birthday. I was researching. She's 26 tomorrow. It's not the best birthday present for her.

Every time I listen to her speak, I think, wow, what an impressive, astute young lady who's really driving sport of football and outside of her sport forward. There's so many people out there who say, just stick to football say just stick to football just stick to sport I'm so glad that she hasn't because she's made real tangible social change when she didn't have to she says in that interview I'm just doing my job she's gone way above and beyond her job and because of that others will follow. Ebony? Yeah I just wanted to say obviously the role of sport in bigger society and having that impact is massive and when you have someone who's an athlete and not just focused on delivering in their performance but they want to make a

difference to society use that platform put their head above the parapet impressive not just her I think many on the list have really gone above and beyond so you know I'm absolutely honored to have been able to be part of this process and see more people having a change I think we can feel I know Barrett as well was saying it's a journey, but I feel like now we're really, as they say, sucking diesel, cooking with gas, like the journey, you know, has began and long may it continue. Well, I want to thank our judges, Weehardt Baroness, Tanni Grey-Thompson, Sam Quek, and of course, Ebony Rainford-Brent and our chair, Jessica Crichton. I also want to thank our live audience that you hear.

It's been lovely to have you. And another final congratulations to all of our Power List winners. You can find all about them at the Woman's Hour website. And over the coming weeks and months, you'll be able to hear them all here on the programme. But for now, goodbye. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

From BBC Radio 4, this is Breaking Mississippi, the explosive inside story of one man's war against racial segregation in 1960s America. I knew the state of Mississippi would stop at nothing, including killing me. James Meredith's mission to become the first Black student at the University of Mississippi triggers what's been described as the last battle of the American Civil War. It's a fight that draws in the KKK and even President Kennedy himself. Can you maintain this order? Well, I don't know. That's what I'm worried about. And we must fight! I thought, wow, this could be it. This could be the beginning of World War III. Now aged 89, James Meredith tells his story. I'm public radio journalist Jen White, and this is Breaking Mississippi.

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