Woman's Hour - The Prison Doctor, Public Speaking, Holiday Clubs, Contraception & Lockdown

Episode Date: June 23, 2020

Theresa May has made a million pounds on the speaker circuit since she stood down as Prime Minister just under a year ago. We discuss how she’s done it and whether she might have a long career ahead of her doing it. Working parents of primary-aged children often rely on out-of-school childcare for the school run and long summer holidays. But thanks to Covid-19, many of these providers are facing an uncertain future. A recent survey by the Out of School Alliance found that 40% of respondents were unsure they’d be able to re-open in September – meaning that around 250,000 childcare places could be at risk. So where will children go if parents have to return to work and grandparents remain off-limits? Dr Amanda Brown has been working as a GP at Bronzefield, a women-only prison since December 2015. She has just written her second book, The Prison Doctor: Women Inside, in which she shares the stories of many of the women she meets inside. Since April, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) has seen a 15% rise in consultations for terminations and is now carrying out around 480 a day. What’s access to contraception been like during lockdown and how can we help to support women?Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Viv Groskop Interviewed guest: Professor Heather McGregor Interviewed guest: Catherine Wrench Interviewed guest: Sue Smith Interviewed guest: Dr Amanda Brown Interviewed guest: Clare Murphy Interviewed guest: Deborah Evans Interviewed guest: Dr Louise Skioldebrand Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's the Woman's Hour podcast from the 23rd of June 2020. Here we go. Hi there, good morning to you. Today, contraception in lockdown. We will talk to Amanda Brown, who's a prison doctor. She works at Bronzefield Women's Prison in Middlesex. And what is happening to holiday clubs and out-of-school childcare with the summer holidays looming officially. Of course, no doubt already underway in Scotland.

There's plenty to mull over there. And if you have any views on that, you can contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or you can email us via our website. First of all, Theresa May has already made a million pounds on the speaker circuit since she stood down as Prime Minister. Now, we know this because she has to register payments in the Commons Register of Members' Financial Interests.

How is she doing it? And these big fee-paying events do tend to be male-dominated. So how can women make their voices heard? How can we succeed at the public speaking game? Because as Theresa May illustrates, it's a very lucrative thing to be good at. We can talk to Professor Heather McGregor, Executive Dean at the Edinburgh Business School

at Harriet Watt University, formerly Miss Moneypenny in the Financial Times. And Viz Groskopp is the author of a book called How to Own the Room. There's a new edition out in July, and she also presents a podcast of the same title. We'll talk to them both in a moment. Here is Theresa May in action. This is from the Commons, just after the general election in December of 2019. I hope my right honourable friend will also forgive me if I just reflect that this was the result

that was supposed to happen in 2017. But of course back then people still thought the Labour Party was supporting Brexit. Two years on, they saw that was a sham, a pretense and a betrayal of millions of traditional Labour voters. And those Labour voters have now elected Conservative members of Parliament. It all seems a lifetime ago, doesn't it? That was Theresa May in the Commons in December of 2019. So that's what you get when you fork out a hundred grand to hear her speak and much more besides, I'm sure.

So, Heather McGregor, we need to make clear we're not getting at her because former leaders do this all the time, don't they? It's pretty run of the mill. Yes, I think if you've been a president of the United States or even married to a president of the United States or a prime minister of the UK or indeed any other major world leader, then you'll probably be out there on the speaking circuit. Right. So she's not doing anything that, for example, well, David Cameron, does he do a lot of it? Boris Johnson wasn't prime minister until relatively recently. He did an enormous amount of this kind of thing. He did an enormous amount of this kind of thing, including, you know, when he was mayor of London and so forth. So we have a long and transparent record of the things that Boris does.

And I mean, Boris would speak at the opening of an envelope, frankly, I think. He is really being very prolific in this area and rather like his, you know, his hero, Winston Churchill, who did a lot of public speaking as well. But I think however much money Theresa makes, she is going to be a rounding error compared to the amount of money that the men in this game make. Why? Men seem to be very much more single minded about this and just chase the dollar. I mean, Theresa didn't do really any of this until she had done her long stint as Home Secretary and as Prime Minister. And I think you also, however good you are in the Commons, you have to learn to speak. I'm sure Viv would absolutely back me up on this.

I mean, I think you have to invest in how to do this well. Let's ask Viv, how do you become a good public speaker, Viv? Well, you become a good public speaker by making people want to listen to you. And it obviously helps if you're already in a position where people have to listen to you, like being the Prime Minister. The thing about the speaker circuit that is really interesting is that it's not so much about how good a public speaker you are, although obviously if you are good, that's going to help you. It's not so much about how good a public speaker you are although obviously if you are good that's going to help you it's about how much people want to get you in inverted commas off the record because you only really get those massive fees if you are in very high demand but low supply

so you know she said she's you said she's made over a million. Well, at this speaker fee of 100,000, that's about probably 10 to a dozen appearances that she's done at that massive fee. It's not that she's going out five times a week. The whole point is to be very relevant and that people desperately want to hear you. And this is where the gender thing sort of breaks down because women are not

always in these positions in their industry where they've attained that status where their insight is seen as unique so all of the biases that we see and the problem with the numbers that you know not enough women being CEOs not enough women being CEOs, not enough women on the board, they get replicated on the speaker circuit because it's those unusual people that get the big bucks. And can I ask, do audiences expect a different sort of performance routine from female speakers, Viv? Are you meant to be rich in family-based anecdotage for example yeah i've talked um to mary portas and professor mary beard about this and they are both people who are expected to say no no no everybody responds the same to men as to women and you just have to own your power but both of them admitted that you do sense audiences responding differently and both of them said that

as a woman and this plays out for Teresa May as well as you could even hear in that clip that if you can use humor you immediately get more people on side and I remember Mary Portas saying you know as soon as she would make a joke she would notice men in the room unfold their arms and relax. So I think you have to disarm slightly more if you're a woman or show yourself to have a sense of humour about yourself. That can really help. But once you've got people on side, then I think that that gender divide sort of flattens a bit and you can just be yourself.

Heather, that is... Thank God, right? Yeah, well, it depends who yourself is. She says getting in with a bit of self-deprecation, of course, which is a fault of women. Heather, do you buy that from Viv, that women have to be... Well, they have to want to be liked, don't they?

I don't think you have to want to be liked. It's not a popularity competition, speaking in public, any more than being a parent is. Well, it shouldn't be, but Viv makes the point that women, on the whole, do have to be liked. I think, as I answered Viv to make the point then, is that you have to be able to laugh at yourself.

And that is, I think, a very important thing. It's one of my three golden rules, is that you have to be able to laugh at yourself and you have to be able to get the audience to laugh with you. So you have to talk about experiences that they audience to laugh with you so you have to talk about experiences that they're going to have they haven't all been prime minister but they've all been in a position where you've made the husband put the bins out so you know that that is the kind of level that you have to get into and an engagement with and you know i learned my craft

really although i did a lot of public speaking before, but I really learned my craft when I had to go and do stand-up comedy. And Viv has done that even more than I have and very successfully. And that is a school of hard knocks. And that's what I think the Commons was for Teresa. You know, a place where people didn't necessarily listen to you. They did walk out.

They didn't always respond positively to you and they haven't come necessarily there to hear you. So if you can hold people's attention by making a joke, laughing at yourself, referring back to something you've said earlier that was patently rubbish, you know, I think that is very important. And the other thing is reading the room. So making a joke about something that happened to you. I mean, I spoke, I did a public engagement

at the end of January for Burns Night in London. And the first thing that happened when I arrived at the venue was that they charged me for my room, which I thought was meant to be free because I was coming to speak. But anyway, I didn't argue, being a pathetic woman, I just paid.

But I stood up that night in front of 300 people and said so I knew Scots were parsimonious but to be charged for my room when I checked in I thought was a bit much and that was the thing that took us you know off to a good start because I had I had talked about something that happened that day and I do think you have to be you have to read the room right decide what what and adjust accordingly. And being able to adjust mid speech is something that's very important. Blimey, that takes real

expertise, doesn't it, to veer off script and perhaps try to a different tactic to win over the room. Viv, what do you do when you know you're losing your audience? That is one of the most terrifying feelings on earth. Yes, well I was talking to Katieie brand the comedian about this

um the other day she's coming up on the podcast soon and she was saying that you've really got the first one and a half minutes i think i've heard lenny henry say that even when you're famous it's 30 seconds you've got that time to get your audience on side or not and if you lose them after that 30 seconds or one and a half minutes then you really are fighting a losing battle so you first impression is the most important thing and katie brand's advice and my advice would be the same is smile and that's something that is really interesting um about women and public speaking that we don't like to say i've i've done lots of events and workshops with women where we discuss this and women will say, why do I have to smile at the audience? I

don't want to feel like a geisha. And women hate being told to, you know, smile and make nice. And what you were saying about, you know, being likable, we're sick of being told to be likable. But there is something about warmth, a human thing, not a female thing, something about warmth. And so if you're losing an audience, but you can be seen to be at ease with that or even find it quite funny, then that is a way to win an audience back to show that you're not bothered and it's OK. And not every audience, Theresa May will know this, not every audience is your audience and that's OK. And with her, if she does lose that audience, they still audience is your audience and that's okay. And with her, if she does lose their audience, they still have to pay her £100,000.

So she's got very much the last laugh. Thank you both very much. I enjoyed talking to you. That's Viv Groskopp, the author of How to Own the Room, and she has an excellent podcast of the same title. And you also heard from Professor Heather McGregor, Executive Dean at the Edinburgh Business School at Heriot-Watt University. Our thanks to them both. Now, since April, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, BPAS, says it's seen a 15% rise in consultations for terminations and says it's doing 480 a day. NHS prescriptions for emergency contraception, the morning after pill in England, in April fell by 20%. So quite simply, what is going on? Claire Murphy is Director of External Affairs at BPAS. Deborah Evans is a pharmacist in Winchester. And Dr. Louise Shoulderbrand is a GP in Suffolk. Claire, first of all, just how much of a rise in

terminations is this, 480 a day? Yeah, so we've seen about a 15% rise. I mean, it's quite a narrow window we're looking at. So we're not drawing, you know, huge conclusions about the data at this stage. But I think it's fair to say we are concerned about how coronavirus is impacting upon women's reproductive choices, access to contraception, but also potentially women with unplanned pregnancy. Unplanned pregnancy is a fact of life regardless of how good contraceptive access is, but women facing those decisions potentially making different decisions about the continuation of the pregnancy in the current climate. Right. Just to be absolutely clear about this, do you believe there are more unplanned pregnancies happening?

We believe there are more unplanned pregnancies happening. Right. OK. And the reason that people give, women give when they turn up, what are they saying? So we know women have had problems accessing contraception over this period. You know, there's been some really great innovations, having said that, you know, greater access to online pill prescriptions, but particular problems around accessing some of the long acting reversible methods like implants or coils, and the perennial problem of access to emergency contraception, which is a source of immense frustration to us. You know, we know women

have had a lot of problems with social distancing in pharmacies trying to access this. And what do you mean by difficulties in social distancing? Well, so for example, you know, we know that pharmacies have got various sort of practices in place when women come in. So for example, in order to keep the distance, women are sometimes told to go away, they come in to get the EC, they're then told to go away they come in to get the ec they're then told to go away and receive a phone call and then told to come back later to collect the the item so it's just yeah you know what we'd like to see really is emergency contraception being able to the woman can just pick it up off the shelf and buy it and not have to have this marriage consultation with the pharmacy yeah i

actually thought you meant that because of social distancing a woman might have to shout across a crowded pharmacy that she needed well that's exactly well or that too yeah that too okay um louise tell us about what's happening at your practice because it's a big one isn't it 20 000 people yeah stowe health uh we it was quite interesting because i noticed that i was getting more, seemed like more termination referral requests. So I said, I popped into the secretary's office and said, oh, another termination. And they said, yeah, but what about all the pregnancies we're seeing? Because they deal with all the appointments for the booking appointments with the midwife. Anyway, we looked at our figures, and rather than maybe four-a-month termination referrals we sort of averaged last year,

we were sort of on seven a month since lockdown. And our pregnancy rate of people choosing to continue or have a booking appointment with a midwife is staggering because usually we're eight a month and we're up to 17 for June already. Right. So there is going to be something approaching a baby boom well in stone market there is and it's still early days but yes it's fascinating to ponder on on the reasons why i mean you're in a good position to ponder what do you think well i think people are making lifestyle choices reflecting more perhaps they're thinking well i can't go on that exotic trip anymore not that our population uh go on masses of holidays but uh their travel plans have perhaps changed maybe they're thinking of a career break maybe they're wanting to just be more involved and thinking of building their home more. I think there has been a demand for puppies and kittens, I believe.

So, yes, but where there's more sex, there are going to be more accidents, more pregnancies. Yes, so far we've established that there have been more pregnancies full stop, more unplanned pregnancies, and now the possibility, at least in Stowmarket, of a baby boom. Let's talk to a pharmacist, Deborah Evans. Deborah, what about you? You're in Winchester. What's happening there? Good morning. We've certainly seen a decrease in requests for emergency contraception. And I do think it's very complex. And until we understand fully what's going on, it's difficult to say why there's a reduction in requests, but also why we're seeing this rise in terminations and pregnancies.

What I would say is that there have been and continue to be many options for access for women so that they can make the choices that are best for them. And putting the sort of pandemic to one side, many pharmacies are open for extended hours, they're open on Saturdays and Sundays, and women can consult with a highly qualified clinician without an appointment and be able to access the morning after pill. and so what I would say about this this recent period is that for those first few weeks after lockdown like much of the NHS

it was complete chaos as we were coming to terms with huge demand for prescription medicines people buying and requesting paracetamol and stockpiling and having to manage reduced staff as they were self-isolating. It was a very, very difficult period for a few weeks. Certainly the experience that Claire expressed is not one that I've experienced. Sorry, to take you up on that. Yeah, this is the fact that she was saying that some women were being sent away and asked to come back, which is time consuming and perhaps overcomplicated. but you're saying you didn't do that? No absolutely not. Certainly some access to emergency contraception is done through local authority schemes and we were very quickly given authority to do those consultations over the phone

and certainly that's been my experience. We will have phone consultations with people so that they can quickly get access to emergency contraception that's appropriate for them having had a conversation with a healthcare professional. You, I know, you prefer to have that conversation, wouldn't you? So I guess I'm right in thinking that you wouldn't want emergency contraception just being available in in boots or super drug or any other high street pharmacy um it is available through um all pharmacies but under the supervision of a pharmacist that's what i meant you can't just pick it up and go to the till no no and you don't believe you should be able to well there's a lot of value to having a consultation with a pharmacist to support the woman to make the best choice for her? Does she actually need it? Is she taking it within the effective time frame? And for one medicine,

that's 120 hours, for another, it's 72 hours. Are there any other factors that influence her choice? For example, is she breastfeeding? Does she take any other medicines? Does she have a BMI that's higher? Might she be under pressure from somebody else? Absolutely. We do come across safeguarding issues. And it's an opportunity for us to give general sexual health advice. And that includes around her choices for ongoing contraception. And also, what should she do if a pregnancy does occur? You know, we are available to have that conversation and very

accessible can i just go back to news thank you um let's just go back to claire what do you think of that claire well i think that sounds in principle great i think in practice that isn't what is is happening and i think it's interesting to see another mystery shopper study uh published today uh in the bmj journal uh on sexual health that really goes to show that actually the consultation is really not adding very much to a woman's experience at all and I think all this idea particularly around safeguarding that you know actually a lot of these conversations are being held over the pharmacy counter without any privacy at all. So really, this isn't a great location for women to divulge anything.

I think this idea that women are being given great advice about other contraceptive options, that isn't happening either. And then I think you need to think about what the consequences are of having these barriers in place. If that consultation isn't really providing these extra additional benefits what's you know the I think the question is very much what barrier does that serve and actually the barrier it puts in women's place is you know is really having access to a second chance to avoid an unplanned pregnancy and puts her at risk of you know of that pregnancy which can cause her you know serious mental and physical harm so I think that's the risk benefit ratio we need to

be looking at very carefully and it's absolutely clear in my mind and in all the research I've looked at and we've spoken to clearly your view this consultation is not serving that purpose no but it's not a view that it's held everybody. I wonder what our GP, Louise, thinks. What do you say, Louise? I would like to highlight that GPs have been open throughout this time. And most of us have been doing telephone consultations for a long time. At Stowe Health, we've been doing email consultations via Ask My GP since January luckily for us so we we had an easy transition to providing email consults which a lot of people find a lot easier to do especially the our younger

patients because they're so savvy with tech so they they're easily able to access us and get emergency contraception over the phone or via email. We looked at our emergency contraception figures compared with last year and actually they're exactly the same numbers. OK, so you haven't had a fall there? No, no. No, no. OK, I just want to, really, we ought to point out, I think, Claire, that terminations on the whole, they were falling in the younger age group and rising in the older age group. Is that correct?

That's absolutely right, yes, and that's the trend we've been seeing over the last few years very much. And one more brief question to you, Claire, in terms of the coil, because a number of the women that you mentioned in your research about the increased consultations for terminations said that they couldn't get their coil in lockdown. What is happening in terms of coil fitting now? So services are starting to come back. They were closed down during the lockdown period. They are starting to come back. They were closed down during the lockdown period. They are starting to come back.

But I think what we need to remember is that, you know, women were already waiting in peacetime, if you like, for quite significant periods for a fitting. It could be hard to get an appointment. You've now got this backlog, but you've also, you know, got a system, yes, as I say, that is starting to start up again. But with measures in place, so you've got social distancing in clinic, you can't have walk-in, you're not having walk-in services. So probably fewer appointments available, but significant, if not increased need. Thank you all. I really appreciate that and I also I understand too that we're not there isn't total agreement on quite what is going on and what should be going on but I'm grateful to all three of you. Claire Murphy Director of External Affairs at BPAS,

Deborah Evans who is a pharmacist in Winchester and Dr Louise Shoulderbrand who is a GP in Stow Market in Suffolk eagerly awaiting her mini baby boom in what, about seven months, six months time after all those babies are born. Now, tomorrow on Woman's Hour, more from our Rethink series. This is a string of conversations over the next couple of days across Five Live and the World Service and here on Radio 4, asking how the world could and should change after COVID. And tomorrow, Claire Chambers, the political philosopher, will be here talking about how our relationship with our bodies

has been affected in lockdown or by lockdown. And you can hear, too, from Laura Bates, the founder of Everyday Sexism, Kate Lister, author of A Curious History of Sex, and Shahid Harbari, Professor of Fashion Cultures and Hist histories at the London College of Fashion. That's on Woman's Hour tomorrow. And if you didn't hear Woman's Hour yesterday, we had a rethink item of our own based around housing and the future of homes and how we live. So you can find that on BBC Sounds. Now, good morning to Dr Amanda Brown, who has been working as the GP at Bronzefield,

that's the women's prison in Middlesex, since the December of 2015, and now a very successful author. Amanda, good morning to you. Good morning. You sound a bit bashful. Don't be bashful. Oh, I'm very bashful. This isn't very comfortable for me.

I'm happier in prison than on radio, so forgive me. Centre and then you moved on to Wormwood Scrubs in London and you are this is actually your second book your first book was Prison Doctor and this is the Prison Doctor Women Inside so the sequel why first of all do you think Amanda there's so much appetite for books like this? I suppose it's looking into somebody else's world that they don't know much about but I'm very surprised at the success of the first book, I must admit. But because of that, a second book was commissioned and I hope the second book will raise awareness

of the women I'm now dealing with who suffer so much from abuse and homelessness. So I hope there's a reason for the books. Yes. Well, it's a window on a world that most of us, you're absolutely right, know little or nothing about. And frankly, most of us probably don't want to know. We should say there are some basic facts

that regular listeners to this programme will be aware of. There aren't actually very many women in prison relative to the number of men. We know that. There are very few women's prisons. We know that, which is a challenge women's prisons, we know that, which is a challenge in itself, not least for visitors. And, of course, women tend to be in for petty crime and serve very short sentences.

Sure. I think 80% of women are in prison for non-violent crimes and at least 50% when they're released from Bronzefield are homeless again, which is tragic. And probably between 60 to 80% of women in prison have been victims of abuse themselves. So it's a very complex population. And the more I learn about the women in prison, the more I'm affected by it. And the more I want to try and do something to improve things, if possible. Right. What was the thing that shocked you most when you first entered the women's prison system?

The fact how nice they were to me. I was for 12 years working in male prisons, being told, don't go near a female prison, they'll eat you alive, you'll have a terrible time, you'll just be very, very unpleasant. But quite the contrary, they were absolutely delightful to me and I love working with them. prison they'll eat you alive you'll have a terrible time you'll be it just be very very unpleasant but quite the contrary they were absolutely delightful to me and I love working with them. And the women that you talk about in your books they are as you've already indicated often deeply damaged individuals who right from the very moment of their birth stood almost no chance

of a half decentdecent existence. Did that surprise you? I think everything surprised me. And it sounds a bit strange, but almost every day I go to work, I hear something that still surprises me. It never stops. So even on Wednesday when I was talking to somebody and she was abused from the age of four and her father is serving 28 years in prison for it.

And she's now 41 and has been homeless for 30 years. You know, it's awful. It never stops. Yes. No, I'm sure it doesn't. And I don't suppose it leaves you when you go home either. You're probably still thinking about it. Let's talk about homelessness, because that's something you've already mentioned. And it clearly is something you feel passionate about. Why are we still allowing women to leave prison with nowhere to go to? I absolutely wish I knew the answer to that, and I find it horrifying.

But fortunately, in a way, because although I am quite a shy person, the books have led me to meet people that care very much about this, and I want to work more and more with people like that to try and improve things for them I don't have the answers but I hate seeing what's going on I mean I'm sorry but sorry I'm about to say when I some of them leave prison and I have to do a prescription for them for their methadone and more often than not I'm writing no fixed abode on the prescription it's terrible and then you see them again a couple of weeks later. Absolutely.

Yeah. And that's the... It's crazy, isn't it? It literally is quite crazy. Yeah, I think they think a third of the women in prison at any one time are in for three weeks or less, and these women have very deeply

horrible mental health issues, drug addictions, and there is no way in three weeks you can do anything to help them. Indeed, some of them do ask for longer sentences, don't they? They ask for longer sentences, they're relieved to get a longer sentence, and some of them refuse TAG because they know they'll be homeless if they're released early. So there's a lot that's wrong. Sorry to sound so miserable. No, Amanda, you have a real insight and this is your real life experience. So don't apologise for that ever. Are there any, we'll get on to the important stuff you've already mentioned in a moment or two,

but are there any pluses to the prison service? When do you see it really being effective and helping women? Well, a lot of the time, actually, if they're in for long enough, which I keep saying, but they're offered education, they're offered training, they can get off their drugs, they have companionship, they have food, they have a bed. One woman I met some while ago, first time in prison, and she said it was the first time she felt safe in bed for seven years.

So, yes, it gives them a chance to get off drugs and get a training and find themselves again and find companionship in some cases and oh a family that they've never known on the outside yeah totally um one elderly lady who'd been in prison for a long time i couldn't help but be fascinated by the poor soul and when i said you know are you going to be in for much longer she said i hope forever because I never want to leave. And if I do, I probably kill myself. This is the happiest time of my life.

So it's quite a range of emotions in there. You mentioned a particular prisoner who the name you've given her in the book is Kim. And she is serving something, something that doesn't actually exist anymore, anymore but an IPP these are indeterminate sentences for public protection now tell us more about an IPP well exactly what they are they came in in 2005 and they were abolished in 2012 but anybody currently serving an IPP sentence has to serve that sentence until a parole board think they're safe to be released and this this lovely lovely girl that I met in 2017 was on an IPP sentence she'd already served I think at least 10 years for effectively stealing a handbag it's a bit more complex than that but it wasn't manslaughter it wasn't a vicious sexual crime or anything like that and this girl completely captivated me with her story and she grew up in

care she was abused her the stepfather went to prison for years for abusing well she herself and her three siblings and she's still in prison and when she moved to open conditions recently and I was very fond of her, we still write to each other, and I'm longing for her to be free so that one day she can find her life again. But it's just extraordinary to me. Yes.

There'll be cynics listening, Amanda, or perhaps not necessarily cynics, who think, oh, I can't believe this. Typical pinko, liberal chit-chat here. Some of these women have done terrible things to people. They have victims and they will have victims of their crimes. I don't want to hear this stuff. What do you say to them?

Well, I suppose the main thing with women is that by far the majority are not in for violent crimes. It's petty crime to fund a drug habit that's funding the result of the abuse they've mostly been through. Of course, there's some shocking crimes in there and they have to be in prison. But I am not there to judge them. I can't. A place you mention in the book, Anna Wim, is a place I went to myself in 2013 and just explain what Anna Wim is

because it's an alternative to prison isn't it for women? Yes, it's a women's centre which is quite extraordinary in the work they do and the results they get and I felt very lucky to go and visit them in Birmingham and they help women get their life back together

they offer accommodation after they leave prison. They're supportive. They train them. So I don't know the funding for a place like Anna Wim, but certainly the average cost for a woman in Bronzefield, I believe, is £65,000 a year. So that's a lot of money that could help other women rehabilitate in women's centres. Yes, but in the end, it's the electorate you have to convince of all this, isn't it? Again, it's a conversation I've had on this programme before.

People, voters, we, the public, like to lock people up. Well, I guess that will always be. But I think for women, there is so much more to it than just the crime. And people need to understand that. Well, you are doing valiant work in helping people to attempt to understand it. Thank you very much for talking to us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thank you. You must be the most reticent interviewee I have ever encountered.

Well, perhaps in more normal times, we can come to Bronzefield and meet you there, because I think that would be really valuable. Thank you very much. I would love that. OK, let's see if we can do that. Thank you very much. That's Dr. Amanda Brown, who is the author of The Prison Doctor, Women Insiders. You can hear from that she's somebody who feels really passionately about her work. Now, working parents of primary age children often of course have to use out-of-school child care for the school run and for the summer holidays but to put it mildly things are challenging

for providers at the moment. Research by the Out-of-School Alliance reveals that 40% of respondents don't know whether they can reopen in September meaning that around 250,000 child care places could be at risk. What are you going to do if you're in that situation? Catherine Wrench is the director of the Outer School Alliance. Sue Smith runs Young Explorers Childcare in the Stoke-on-Trent area. And Sue, you are open, aren't you, at the moment, for the very youngest children?

We are, yes. But you're really worried about the future. Just explain why. Well, as you're saying, I will be OK in September, but there are massive financial implications of what's happening at the moment. We're open at the moment for anybody under the age of five that wants to come back in,

funded children, paying parents, etc. But we're coming up towards the summer holidays and we are not at this present time allowed to open our out of school club which normally serves about between 40 and 45 children from four different schools and in the summer holidays we have at least 20 children in a day of parents that work and won't be able to work unless the um school club opens right there's a lot to cope with but if you could try and put it in a nutshell what is it you need to hear in the coming weeks or days that will allow you to be a bit more reassured that we are allowed to open our school-of-school club from the 4th of July in line with other openings

and lockdown concessions. Yeah, because things are changing. We know things are going to be changing today, in fact. You might find out something later. I've had an email this morning that says that it is hoped that on the 4th of July that our restrictions will be lifted so we can work safely as with other children. And we just need some clarity for our regulations and see what we have to be able to do to be able to open and keep everybody safe.

I don't think you're the only person, Sue, who would say that perhaps clarity has been somewhat absent. Catherine from the Outer School Alliance I guess you're familiar with stories like Sue's? Yes absolutely we have been in contact with the Department for Education since the middle of May trying to get clarity on the opening of out-of-school clubs and it's just there's nothing forthcoming. We're hearing stories about clubs who are hoping to open for the summer. But if we don't get the guidance now, the time is just running out. So they won't be able to get things in place in order to do so. Things like safe recruitment checks don't happen overnight.

So if clubs want to open during the summer or are able, going to be able to, they need to get those things in place right now. Yeah. Do you sometimes sense that perhaps there is just an absence of understanding at the heart of government about the real lives of working people, Catherine? Definitely. In our conversations with the Department for Education, they are equating out-of-school childcare with the extracurricular type club. And they seem to be making no distinction between the two.

Now, obviously, it's great for parents to have that choice to send their children to piano lessons, but childcare is a need. And without it, they just can't work. Yeah. I mean, I think, Sue, you would say that most of the parents whose children you're caring for are in that category. They are people with, they've got working lives they need to re-establish. And they can't do it without your services, Sue. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, Stoke-on-Trent's an area of deprivation. We've got a lot of low-income, low-paid families who rely on childcare to enable them to work. Not everybody has family support of partners or parents or older siblings. And if the Ad School Club doesn't open, then they stand a very high chance of losing their jobs, which is terrible. Are you getting worried parents on the phone to you, Sue? Daily, absolutely daily.

You know, are you opening yet? Can we come back yet? No, you can't. We don't know anything. I mean, as I say, planning is another issue, but even just the clarity of knowing we can open would be such a load off everybody's mind. I mean, these parents must be going through terrible situations of trying to think about what we're going to do if we can't open. Because people need to go back to work, don't they? They do, yeah. I mean, one of our parents is furloughed at the moment but you know if their shop opens she won't be able to be another parent um you know has to rely on family um and then puts their family in a compromising position because they have um elderly grandparents who really shouldn't be looking after the children um in all sorts of situations but it's really not nice

parents to be able to go through they need to they've all been through enough mentally haven't we sue smith who runs the young explorers child care organization in stoke-on-trent and katherine wrench the director of the outer school alliance and an email from robert this. I work for CSD Activity Camps, an Ofsted registered wraparound care provider in Northamptonshire. We work closely with housing associations to deliver free childcare to families in economically challenged areas to allow working parents to work without the worry of paying for childcare. However, we normally run our activities from school facilities, but we've got a huge problem right now that none of our schools have agreed for us to use their facility. At the moment, we feel it's going to be very difficult to run holiday activities with the guidance as it stands. We normally provide care for over 200 children a day over four different camps during the summer holidays. These children are not going to get any care as it stands, says Robert.

Well, I think things are about to change. Hopefully the much missed clarity will soon be on offer. And now to other issues discussed on the programme today. Helen on Twitter said, I think it's just obscene that Theresa May is earning so much for simply making a speech. No prime minister, male or female, should be raking money in for being, in essence, a public servant. Well, yeah, I mean, I know a lot of people say that the money you don't make as prime minister, because the salary as prime minister isn't actually that high. And let's face it, it comes with a shed load of burdens and responsibilities you can make up

for the relatively low salary in that role by coining it on this circuit when you retire um i take your point helen but i think we have to accept that it's not a job that most of us would want to do or will be able to do and maybe you are allowed to earn a few quid afterwards um from jill at rita resume and public speaking i was trained whilst at marks and spencer to do and maybe you are allowed to earn a few quid afterwards. From Jill at Rita Reza May in public speaking, I was trained whilst at Marks and Spencer by a man called Harold Needle who trained Margaret Thatcher and the government on public speaking. One of the best bits of advice was to lower your voice periodically as people strain to hear and even if they're dozing off, they tend to perk up, says Jill. Right. Okay. I will always remember my first ever public speaking engagement as a radio presenter,

which was at the Kemsie Evergreen Club in Worcestershire on a very hot summer's afternoon, not unlike today, in fact. I think it was the June of 1991, possibly, anyway, something like that, the entire front row fell asleep. And I do mean the entire front row. And I did think twice at that point about my career choice, wondered why I was there. And I think they were wondering why they were there as well, which is probably why they fell asleep. Now, the biggest response today. Oh, no, actually, let me just read some contraception emails out first of all. Stephen says, listening to what's being said, I'm wondering if this may be effectively planned pregnancies just brought forward.

So it may just be a bunching up rather than a full baby boom. That's the theory of Stephen in Cambridge, a bunching up. One way of describing it. Justine on Twitter says it's been tricky for me. My coil proved awkward to be replaced in January and my gynae consultation in March was cancelled and there are no new appointments for the foreseeable future. I didn't conceive my first and only child until I was 43. I'm now 49 and I would like a second child, but I'm heading towards the perimenopause. Thank you for that, Justine. Yes, it was interesting during that conversation, wasn't it? There was what we call in journalism, clear blue water between two of the contributors about how

emergency contraception should be treated and whether or not women looking for it should be obliged to have a conversation about their choice rather than just being allowed to pick it up and head to the till. So we'll see how that goes. Now to Amanda Brown, who is the prison doctor at Bronzefield Women's Prison in Middlesex. Jenny on Twitter says, that was the most amazing interview I've heard on Woman's Hour for a long time. Amanda Brown should be allowed to speak in the House of Commons about her experiences. Things really need to change for women who end up in prison.

From Liz, some years ago, I went with my band and I did a hoedown for the women in Bronzefield Prison and it was quite unbelievable as an experience. We had well over a hundred women there, dancing, singing, laughing and crying. They brought some babies from the mother and baby unit and joined in with the dancing. The prison officers, mostly men, stood against the walls looking on and clearly didn't approve until I allowed one of them to dance with me. The whole hall erupted in applause and cheers and even the prison officers smiled. I hope we gave a few moments of joy to everybody there. I could see that most of the women were

obvious drug users with signs of abuse and it made me seriously question the value of prison for people like this when what they actually need is help and reason to believe that life will be better for them. Thank you for that, Liz. And I absolutely take your point that you've been inside Bronzefield. I should say that Amanda, on the whole, in her book is full of praise for the prison officers, not just at Bronzefield, but at other institutions where she has worked. She actually says that they are doing a good job sometimes in very trying circumstances. From Lawrence, who says he has a Liverpool accent. Thank you for that, Lawrence. Not sure how relevant it is to the email, but we'll see. I'm not going to read it out in a scarce accent.

What a wonderful breath of fresh air it was to have Amanda Brown interviewed just then. She had my full attention throughout. And it was such a joy to hear a guest who isn't a posh southern know-all with a grudge against men. I could have even imagined a chat on a bus or a train on any subject at all with Dr. Brown. I'm a Liverpudlian, says Lawrence, and I've often talked in the city centre with women who've served time in prison and find themselves back on the streets again. I could weep when I find myself contemplating some of their stories at three o'clock in the morning. Sadly, the same applies to men as well. Yes, I absolutely take that, Lawrence.

I think you're probably right. From Liz, an inspiration, Jane, to hear that GP who works in a women's prison. But didn't you think it was ironic and a bit uncomfortable talking about poor Theresa May being one of so few women earning millions on the after dinner circuit, while the GP told us about the prisoners she'd met with no chance of a home when they left prison for a relatively minor offence, even though so many are victims of a lifetime of abuse. If we learn one thing from this lockdown, it should be that there is a need for a massive change in our society

where the real heroes and heroines are acknowledged by a decent pay rise and we find a solution to really support people in the very greatest need. And from Jill, I'm a frequent listener to Woman's Hour, but I was disappointed this morning, particularly immediately after the interview on the lack of women who are comfortable with public speaking, to at least twice mention to the interviewee who spoke about women's prisons

that she was reticent and not comfortable. Clearly not accustomed to self-publicity, as many of the guests are, I don't think this put her at her ease and would put other people listening off speaking up as well. Yes, Jill, okay, I take that. I actually, I meant her reticence, I meant my reference to her reticence as a compliment, I should say. But Jill's got a point because she alludes to the fact that we do interview, I interview, Jenny interviews, a lot of people who are used to being interviewed. And it's interesting because they do deliver in a particular way.

And I think that's why I enjoyed talking to Amanda so much. She wasn't, I don't think she'd done a radio interview before. And she spoke as she found. And I actually find that really refreshing. And I think a lot of you did as well. Janice says, Amanda was the best GP I ever had and I was really sad when she left general practice.

I was so delighted though that she'd found the work she was clearly destined to do and find people too who really need her. And from Deborah, I thought Dr Brown was inspiring, insightful and formidable in her work with women's prisons.

As much as the population at large may want to lock them up and throw away the key, it's our business to care and be compassionate for those who've suffered terrible experiences. But to end with an email

from another Jane who says, Jane was speaking to Amanda Brown from Bronzefield. I think it would be really helpful if you could hear from the court side of events. And I thank Jane for this because this is important. She says, I'm a magistrate in southwest London and we so rarely see women in court. All of the sentences we pass on women really do stick out. Earlier this year, having not seen a woman in court for some considerable time, there were two before our bench one morning. We tried everything we could to keep them both out of prison and to find them somewhere to live. But they wanted to

go to prison and get away from various family members. As Dr Brown suggested, the crime before us wasn't that significant on its own, but together with other crimes and a lack of engagement with the agencies who tried to help, often because of accommodation problems, it wasn't possible to engage with their help, our choices as magistrates and sentences are fairly limited. Without a doubt, accommodation for all offenders is important, but women really are very different from men in the criminal justice system. Clearly, we try to treat everybody the same, but every person before us is unique and has unique needs and histories. Please be assured we never send anyone, particularly women, to prison unless we cannot find a workable alternative outside in the community.

But Jane adds a PS here. Bronzefield is so well run and a relatively new prison, I have heard women asking to go there. Which I think tells you quite a lot, doesn't it? Thanks to Jane and thanks to everybody else who's taken part today. Jenny's here tomorrow with another Rethink conversation, this time about what lockdown has done to our attitudes, to our bodies and our appearance. Have a very good day and thanks for listening today. Hi, I'm Catherine Bell-Horse.

And I'm Sarah Keyworth. We're comedians separately and a couple together. And we're the host of You'll Do, the podcast that gives you a little insight into perfectly imperfect love. Yeah, forget nights in with this one and hashtag couples goals. We want to know the whys and hows of sticking with the people we love and asking a few of the questions that are meant to help us develop intimacy. So why not give it a listen and subscribe to You'll Do on BBC Sounds. doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I

unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.