Woman's Hour - The Queen of the Brassicas - the Brussels sprout!

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

Our Christmas Day special programme is devoted to the Brussels sprout, with some incredible women for whom they’re playing a key role in their working lives. As a nation we eat more sprouts than any other country in Europe but it’s a vegetable that, like marmite, divides opinion. Originally from the Middle East, they came to Europe as an export of the Roman Empire. We hear how they became known as Brussels sprouts with the head of the Royal Horticultural Society Clare Matterson and the food historian Dr Sue Bailey. Plant pathologist Dr Lauren Chappell and the brassica research expert Dr Rachel Wells explain how sprouts are being engineered to taste sweeter and withstand climate change. Nutritionist Charlotte Hunter says the phytoestrogens in these mini cabbages mean women should be eating more of them. And for ideas about how to cook your sprouts, chef and broadcaster Andi Oliver and her daughter Miquita are on hand, as well as the chef Rosalind Rathouse.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager Neva Missirian

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. A very happy Christmas to you all. Now, on this special day, we are devoting the hour to celebrating the Queen of Brassicas, the Sprout. Yes, you may love them or you may hate them. You may well have changed your opinion by the end of this programme. And as this is Woman's Hour, we are going to explore why every woman needs a sprout in her life this Christmas, with some incredible women for whom sprouts are playing a key role in their working lives. As a nation, we eat more sprouts than any

other country in Europe. And if you can't bear to eat one today, you will, after this programme at least, know a lot more about them. Joining me today is Charlotte Hunter, who specialises in nutritional medicine for women. She'll tell us why women should be getting more of these mini cabbages into our diet. We'll find out where sprouts originally came from,

spoiler alert, it's not Brussels, with Claire Matteson, who's the Director General of the Royal Horticultural Society and the food historian, Dr Sue Bailey. We'll talk to two women steeped in the science of sprouts, plants pathologist, Dr Lauren Chappell and Dr Rachel Wells, brassica research expert, who'll explain how sprouts are being engineered

to taste sweeter and the search to find varieties that will withstand climate change. And we want to talk about how to cook your sprouts, whether you like them plain or totally jazzed up with chef and broadcaster Andy Oliver and a daughter, Makita. They produce a popular podcast, Stirring It Up, and chef Rosalind Rathouse, who's brought us a cornucopia of sprout dishes for us to taste a little later. They smell delicious. Can't wait.

I love sprouts that helps we're not live today but you can still join the conversation on social media it's at bbc woman's hour we have a packed program so let's get on with it now over the last couple of weeks i've been asking you about your sprouty stories we'll be hearing some of those later but first we managed to ask some of our recent celebrity guests for a Brussels sprout. I think they're an amazingly underused vegetable and they shouldn't just come out once a year because I think they're amazing. There's so much you can do with them. Try them with goat's cheese and broccoli all mixed together.

It is phenomenal. I like sprouts. I mean, I think the secret is not to overcook them and I always cut them in half because they cook in half the time and then serve them with something like fried chestnuts or crispy bacon cut up, you know, just adds to the flavour. I love Brussels sprouts, really. The reason why I love sprouts is because it's very strong, the flavour. It's like marmite.

You either love it or you hate it. But that strong taste is what I absolutely love. So I kind of steam my sprouts in garlic and it's good. And it's also incredibly good being an older woman. It's very good for the hormones. You have no idea how much benefits you get from this little thing that smells so bad. Brussels sprouts. I'm not a Brussels sprouts person.

That was Jodie Whittaker, a.k.a. The Doctor, national treasure Mary Berry, singer Misha Parris and the one and only Sharon Osbourne. I guess Ozzy won't be getting any sprouts today. Oh, well. I am joined by Andy and Makita Oliver. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, darling.

Are sprouts going to feature on your plate this Christmas? Big time. We eat sprouts throughout any, whenever they're available not just on Christmas Day. They're tiny little cabbages. Exactly. I think that really changed it for me when I realised that because I love cabbage and I was like they're just little mini cabbages.

But what about when you were little? Andy, did Makita eat everything or was she like a teninose? No, she ate everything because I always gave her everything. Kids get, I think kids get picky if you let them choose. Don't let them... Why are you asking them? Give them their dinner.

That's their food. Eat it. That's how it worked in our house. Well, I also... I've always loved vegetables since a really young age and still really do. So she got... I think you got lucky with a kid that just loves vegetables.

I did get lucky and I don't have a very sweet tooth. So, I mean, Makita would even have like a bowl of peas. Yeah, that's like the truth. Instead of sweets. That's what she kind of preferred so she always loves sprouts and and and any kind of cabbage and brassicas because i i love them and i cook them all the time yeah delicious well go on then give us a recipe yeah go on then i mean just a very simple one is just to shred them up saute them with almonds and caramelized onions and crispy streaky bacon, little chopped up bits. Delicious.

That's a very quick, easy way to cook them. You can gratinate them. So just steam them very, very lightly, chop them up and then make a very, quite a light cheesy sauce and then put loads of parmesan and panko crumbs and put it all in the oven. I love the word gratinate. You can make a sauce from them.

Blitz them up with roast garlic, bit of tahini, bit of cream or oat cream if you're trying to stay away from dairy. Blitz them up and use them as a sauce to go with a piece of fried fish. Oh, Andy, you are good. Look at that. I asked for a recipe and I got three.

We've got a studio packed full of amazing women and I've never had so many guests in front of me. I feel like we could all just give a, because it's Christmas Day, can we just get a mmm for Andy's recipes? Mmm. Thank you very much. All right.

Now, lots of our listeners have been getting in touch as well, Andy. I'd love to hear what you think about some of their recipes. Gavin David message from Copenhagen says, Sprout crumble. Sussex University, mid-1970s. My girlfriend was part of a student-led whole food canteen. I've never forgotten that savoury sprout crumble. Delicious winter.

He says, mmm. Mary Wood says, Brussels sprouts roasted in chilli oil and pancetta. Tiny bit of sugar and salt. Nice. Yeah. I'm not sure you need the sugar. Yeah, what would the sugar do?

Well, the sugar, I guess the sugar do well the sugar i guess probably takes because they have a slight back bitterness but i quite enjoy that so that sort of sharpness that it's got in in the back of the in the back of the palette i quite like that so but so i think that might be the thing that puts some people off so i guess the sugar would ameliorate for that but i i would leave the sugar out but i like the rest of it i've got some more messages um this one is from dell bennett who says he adds six drops of vanilla essence to a small pan of sprouts at start of simmering. Makes them tasty, fresh and yummy. Somehow vanilla is made from sprouts. Vanilla. And we've got Rosalind who's also a cook in the kitchen. Both. What do you think?

You've literally turned your nose up. I'm not feeling that, I'm afraid. Vanilla in a savoury dish, you have to be so, so judicial about how you apply it, where you apply it, when you apply it. It often doesn't work, even though people are absolutely positive that it does. And I can't really see that exciting me very much. We've had another email. Rosalind, you're moving on from vanilla, not for you. Not for me, definitely. She's just for you no definitely email from Patricia Bailey she says the perfect way to cook sprouts is to cut through the vertical center then two or three more vertical cuts at the base in effect

chopping it steam the sprouts to have the most delicious green veg which looks like a serving of chopped spring greens no bitterness no antisocial after effects. Is that a good idea? Is that a thing? Have you heard that? I've heard things like that. To put the cross on the bottom of it. Historically, we used to always put a cross and it makes no difference.

Yeah, it's one of those funny old things. People thought it made them cook quicker, I think. But you really don't need to do it. Well, maybe Sue, our food historian, will be able to enlighten us about that. Andy, Makita, all of you. Rosalind, everyone is here. We're all enjoying ourselves.

I'm going to bring in our Sprout historians. Let's hear whether Sue Bailey can enlighten us about the cross and a few other things. And Claire Matteson, the Director General of the Royal Horticultural Society. Welcome to our Sprout special. Yay, glad to be here. Thank you. It's good to have you here. Do you like sprouts, both of you?

I think I should find out from the top. Love them. Oh, I love them. I grow you. It's good to have you here. Do you like sprouts, both of you? I think I should find out from the top. Love them. Oh, I love them, I grow them, I can't get enough of them. Claire, you've come with a knitted carrot, two carrots attached to yourself. I have, yeah, so not only do I grow and eat lots of veg, I try to wear them as often

as I can as well. Knitted by my mother, who passed away recently, actually. So also very close to my heart. Mum's name? Mum's name, Margaret. Margaret. Okay. Nice to have Margaret's name in the room. So Sue, what do we know about sprouts? Where do they actually come from? They certainly have a history going back as far as the Roman times. And Apicius, who was one of the food writers of that period, actually has very nice recipes for sprouts. So it's quite intriguing to also think that there's a link with the Middle East. And it was thought that the trading ships

who were taking tin to the Middle East actually took some seeds there. And then the seeds from the wild cabbage did some crossovers, and then they got transported back to the area where the Romans were. And then they became popular when the Romans spread to Northern Europe. And so it became a Northern European popular vegetable. So then so Romans took them with them? They loved them so much? Well, yes, they did, basically. So why are they called Brussels sprouts? Ah, now that's quite an interesting one because Brussels sprouts really only have been known about since about the 13th century.

They were in inventories in areas in the Brussels area, but they weren't necessarily called Brussels sprouts. The name has become one that really became popularised in the 17th and then the 18th century because they were growing them and found that it was a very efficient way on a small area of land to grow these nice little neat cabbages up a stalk and you know it's very space efficient the area around brussels was becoming a bit of land poor and so therefore

it's a very clever way as they found to grow your little baby cabbages and we have a stalk of sprouts in the studio it looks fantastic doesn't it i just love it you know what i love actually can i just say this very quickly is a brussel top oh yeah the bigger heads at the top and you shred those down with like chili and garlic and ginger and a good splash of good um extra cold pressed rapeseed. The brussel tops, they've got a deeper flavour, don't you think? They're kind of darker and more kind of punchy and irony.

I'm a very big fan of the brussel top. If you've just joined us, welcome. It's a Woman's Hour Christmas Day special. We are dedicating the entire hour to sprouts. Claire, tell us what records the Royal Horticultural Society have got for sprouts. When were they first eaten? Enlighten us. Yeah, well, we've got a big library, the Lindley Library. And so we were looking in the library

for this. And the first record that we could find of them was in a gardening book in 1796 by a chap called Charles Marshall and a great title, A Plain and Easy Introduction to the Knowledge and Practice of Gardening. So I think that helped people find out what they were. They became quickly a staple. And then we've got a lovely early mention, early reference in 1824, and it was then the Horticultural Society,

because we didn't have the royal bit then. That came a little bit later and so the Horticultural Society gave a medal to John Anderson and he was the gardener of the Earl of Essex of Cassenbury Park and he brought six very fine Brussels sprouts plant to a society meeting. So that was our earliest record that we can find of the Brussels. When did they first become popular as part of christmas dinner well it's interesting because i've got a record that hannah glass who was a one of the early female food writers in 1747 she's got a lovely recipe for dressing cabbages and sprouts but you have to boil them in a great deal of water she said and when the stalks are tender or fall to the bottom they're enough then take them off before they lose their colour so I think perhaps she was rather over boiling them but

she did say actually add with a good piece of butter and then Eliza Acton actually suggested that they would be served tossed in butter a little bit of veal gravy and served on toast all right Eliza. Just picking up on the issue we were talking about a minute ago, which is putting the cross across the bottom of the sprout, which lots of people do, there is some history there linked to that, isn't there? There is.

Again, it goes back to the medieval period when it was thought that certain leafy vegetables, cabbage, sprouts and so on, actually had little devils hiding under the leaves. So the idea was that if you put a cross on the bottom of your sprout, that would drive out the devils, because otherwise, if you didn't, then you might get indigestion. Would you be full of the devil?

You would be full of the devil, you would indeed. In fact, I'm looking across at Rachel. We will be talking to you, Rachel, about the science behind them. Do you think there's the devil in sprouts? Definitely. I really don't like them. Some people just think the devil does exist there. And Claire, is there any interest in old fashioned sprout varieties, heritage seeds? There are and there aren't. There are a handful of kind of heritage cultivars around. They've got some great names, actually. There's something called the Evesham Special,

the Catskill, I love this one, the Bedfoot Fill Basket, the Rupine Red, which had little red spouts. But I think they were much, much more bitter and they also tended to be taller, spread out more down the, you know, so you've got fewer sprouts per plant. And the modern cultivars,

they've kind of had that bitterness bred out of them. So we like them more, more packedly down the sprout. So you get more per stalk. Yeah, I'm looking at this sprout stalk that I've got in front of me. Are they smaller than they used to be? Well, it all depends on the cultivar, really. So you can, there's some cultivars, there's one called the Martus, which has much bigger sprouts. Some people like that.

Some people feel the smaller ones have, you know have a bit more flavour, a bit sweeter, or sometimes a bit more bitter, depending on which way you want to go. So now, I guess the thing is decide, do you want a bigger sprout? If you grow them in an allotment, you can be quite prone, because a lot of other people are growing them, to this kind of thing called fly clubroot, which can damage them. And there's one called the Cryptus, and that's very resistant to that. So when you're allotments, that's a good one to grow.

Or if you, like you were saying, you love to have them all the way through the year, there's one that's much, much better called the igor. You can kind of keep eating them way after Christmas. So now you've just got lots of choice, depending upon, you know, what kind of sprout you're after. Those big ones you're talking about, Lisa, they're the ones that traumatized people early like those giant overcooked ones at school just like really wet and sloppy and with no flavor do you remember those they're not really like that anymore if

you've had a badly cooked Brussels sprout it might that might be your trauma I think it's the historical thing because people always used to boil them to death today before putting them onto your plate. And there's nothing worse than a plate full of soggy vegetables. And that horrible smell. Yes. Which is not the smell we have in the studio right now. Because Rosalind has brought in some delicious sprout recipes for us.

Rosalind Rathaus, talk to me about your favourite recipes. What have you brought? Well, traditionally we used to just do boiled sprouts with chestnuts. Very traditional Christmas dish. And we tend to brown our butter a bit, not just put white, wet butter. We like our butter slightly caramelised. So the milk solids at the bottom are brown, even a little crispy if you like. Bit of salt and that's it.

So browning butter is the technique. I love the browned butter. See, when I hear chefs say something like that, I don't know about you guys, like just brown the butter, like we all know how to do that. I mean, terrifying, burning butter. I'm going to taste some.

Actually, burnt butter is delicious. Butter goes all different sorts of colours. Just your white butter, and if you look at it, it's milky. Keep going. It'll get light brown at the bottom. Then it goes slightly darker. Even black butter is served over fish with a bit of lemon juice, capers. So butter browned is just delicious.

I have just eaten my first sprout of the programme. Absolutely delicious. Sorry, Rachel. You're on your own. What else have you brought? A minestrone soup. Maybe Rachel should try today. I'm going to make her.

I generally only have the one token sprout of the year. I try to avoid eating them. That's like Christmas. Okay, here we go. Minestrone soup with sprouts. This is an interesting. Butter beans, carrots. This looks... Very, it's a meal in itself but instead of ending it, putting

cabbage at the end, we put brussels in. So for people that don't like brussels... That's heaven. Other people should try that. That is absolutely divine. And then by way of contrast a slaw. Oh, you're really testing me by way of contrast, a slaw. Oh, you're really testing me now.

I love a sprout slaw. They're great like that. But I put a few cranberries in just because it's Christmas. I'm so energised and excited by this. I've actually leapt out of my seat. I'm now standing up and crouching down by the microphone. This is pushing the boat out. Raw sprouts. Raw, very finely sliced Brussels.

Then we just did some carrot and some apple just Brussels apple some cranberries and some we browned some walnuts so we got them crisp but the secret is in our dressing our dressing is a mixture of a bit of we make our own aioli so a mixture of aioli, Nazrich yogurt, a Greek yogurt, and some dressing. And we mix them together. And the combination of the creaminess of the yogurt

plus everything just gives you that tang with it. And it breaks it down, doesn't it? It does break it down. It breaks the hardness of it down. You can do the same thing with like kale and stuff when it's raw. And one more. It's not all hard.

I'm in sprout heaven here. This is absolutely Can I have some slaw? Yes, please. I think everyone should taste something. This is what I'm about to try now, Rosalind. And that is just some Brussels boiled with cheese sauce. I mean, anything with cheese, really.

Loads of cheddar. Lovely British cheddar. Absolute heaven. And then the final one is those are baked that's Brussels sprouts, bit of herb, bit of garlic, lots of olive oil and baked, high baked so that they get crisp on the outside so they've got a bit of

a crunch. Delicious. That slaw is amazing. It's got walnuts. Right. I hope everyone's writing these ideas down if we're about to cook your Christmas lunch. And it's really high in vitamin C as well. Sprout slaw, we're absolutely high in vitamin C. We're going to come to getting all

the goodness about sprouts. Thank you to everyone who got in touch to contribute to our Sprout Chat. Here's a selection of what some of you have been saying on our socials. I hate sprouts, but I eat them to make everything else taste even more delicious. There you go. That's one way of consuming them. Lorraine says, love Brussels.

Had them last night. Boiled them. Lightly stir-fried with noodles and garlic, spring onion, paprika, raw honey, soy sauce, salt and pepper. So many health benefits. I slice them and think of them as miniature cabbages. Love them with smoky streaked bacon. Rosalind, everyone's nodding and smiling.

Rosalind approves. Jill says, I eat raw sprouts just sliced up in my daily salad. Love them. Geriatric Mum says, adore them. Crunchy and healthy, gorgeously green. And I cook them without anything fancy. If you're just joining us, welcome to this very special Christmas Day edition

of Woman's Hour, where we are talking all things sprouts. My guests are Charlotte Hunter, Claire Matteson, Dr. Sue Bailey, Dr. Lauren Chappell, Dr. Rachel Wells, Andy Oliver,

Makita Oliver, and Rosalind Rathaus. Before we move on, I've got a couple of messages from our listeners. Claire Brown from York says, I hate Brussels sprouts with a passion. And so I've been trying everything to make them tastier. Last year, I did Christmas dinner with sprouts five ways.

My favourite so far is fried in butter and marmite. Oh, yeah. Cabbage and marmite are good. She says they're still pretty grim, though. There's a reason why we only eat them and turkey once a year. And Atlanta says, We love sprouts, except for one family member. gets peas even the dog loves them and we've been eating them since september bring them on that's what we like to hear okay well we all are enjoying the taste

here in the studio apart from rachel don't worry rachel i won't force you to eat them not on live radio they can have a strong taste which many people find bitter so let's find out what's going on from our scientists dr lauren chapel who's a plant pathologist and dr rachel wells who's an expert in brassica crop research rachel you don't like them we know that but why don't you like them and what makes them bitter is it the bitterness that people don't like so yeah i think it is the bitterness so So brassicas in general are amazing and related species because they produce these sulfurous chemicals called glucosinolates. So it's those glucosinolates that we can taste.

So if you think they're the spiciness that you get in your rocket or the mustard and all your other brassicas, so it's that flavour that's coming through. And those glucosinolates themselves are really good for you. So and I'm sure we'll talk about that later on. Yes. Okay. But they're much sweeter now than they were 30 years ago, aren't they, Lauren? Yes, they are. So researchers have really been trying to identify what was causing the bitterness and breed them out. So in the late 90s, a group of Dutch scientists together with breeding, ran some taste panels.

So they took 10 Brussels sprout varieties and 48 members of the public, and they fed them Brussels sprouts in lots of different meals and got them to rank how bitter they were. And then they correlated this with some laboratory experiments identifying the compounds, and they identified two specific glucosinolates that Rachel was talking about. So now they've identified those compounds, now breeders can specifically test for them in their varieties. So they can identify varieties that are low in these glucosinolates and then they'll cross-pollinate them with modern, high-yielding varieties and that's how we get our modern elite varieties that you're

hopefully eating today. Modern, elite, less bitter varieties. But that dangerous it's like it's like we don't want a sprout to not taste like a sprout like we're not meant to change the taste of it surely true yeah and also those glucosinolates they have really useful properties for the plant as a whole so they're there as defense compounds so if you're looking at defense against fungal pathogens actually they help protect the plant against them and also protection against herbivores and pests so some of the work i've done is on slugs actually if you give slugs a choice between high glucosinolate and low glucosinolate variety they will actually always choose that variety with low glucosinolates and in fact if you only give them the high glucosinolate variety to eat they'd rather

eat the dish the test dish that the experiment is set up in than they will the plant material they'll completely leave it alone look how happy you are about it even slugs don't touch it um there is a test though to find out not everybody can taste the bitterness is that right so that is right so it depends on which taste receptors you have which variety you know which version of those taste receptors you have so you have about 30 receptors on your tongue 30 different receptors on your tongue that allow you to taste bitter compounds and one of those receptors is responsible for being able to taste that glucosinolate flavour, that glucosinolate bitterness. We can do a test to see whether you have the ability to taste this or not.

Shall we do it? Shall we do the test? I'm going to do it to see whether I have the bitter receptor, whether I can taste bitter. One is a bit of plain paper. Yeah, you'll start off with the control piece of paper. So you shouldn't be able to taste anything when you taste that paper. Absolutely nothing, yeah. So the next one you're going to test is one that's got PTC on it.

Okay, this chemical that is not naturally occurring, but it's similar to glucosinolates. So when you put that in your mouth, if you can't taste it, it will taste like paper. If you can, you'll get that really bitter sensation. I can taste bitter so i'm in part of the 70 so that can taste those those bitter flavors and i still like brussels brows yeah which is interesting so maybe you're not a super sensitive taster because you get a whole range from people that really can't stand that taste on their tongue to people that can't

sense it at all. Is there any correlation between being able to taste the bitter and smell the asparagus wee? I was just wondering the same thing. Good. Glad I asked the question then. I have no idea. OK, sorry. Because not everybody can't smell it.

Because you're a brassica expert. I know nothing about asparagus. Sorry. You can't about it. Sorry. You can't tolerate coriander. Ah, yes. It tastes like soap for some people, doesn't it? Oh, the coriander thing as well. Lauren, I've got a question for you.

Is there any truth in the saying that they are better after a hard frost? Yes. It's not the old wives' tale that we think it is. Actually, a hard frost will convert some of the starches into sugars in the vegetables. And it's the same for several overwintering vegetables, brussel sprouts and parsnips for example, another Christmas favourite. But they're not converting some of these glucosinolates we've just been discussing. Actually they're really hardy to low temperatures but they start to degrade at higher temperatures which is why when you cook them they start to taste a little less bitter. And what about the future of sprouts? Looking at a database of historical plants that you're looking at what's going to happen in the

future? Yeah so we work with the UK Vegetable Gene Bank which has over 6,000 different varieties of brassica from all around the world. They're all different types of leaf shape, size, flavour, colour you name it, it's in there. And this kind of diversity is really important because every time you breed, you're selecting for a specific gene and it kind of means you're selecting against other genes. So if you think of our modern varieties, we've selected and selected and selected and now the genetic diversity is quite narrow. So what we do is we look back at these wild type varieties that have a really wide variety of genetics, huge genetic diversity, and we look at those for novel genetics

for important traits for growers. And that can be things like disease resistance to pest and disease, or more importantly now perhaps tolerance to climate change. So how are they going to fare with climate change? It's very challenging I mean this year alone has been very challenging for Brussels sprout growers it was a very rainy start to the year very waterlogged and flooded plants has led to kind of the lower stems of Brussels being quite damaged a lot of the harvests now are focusing on the tops of the plants but we're hopeful that we can find some kind of genetics linked to tolerance so they'll continue to be delicious for years to come.

And what about Makita's question? You know, should we be messing around with them? Should we not all just be eating the original old fashioned Brussels sprouts? It feels a bit like getting plastic surgery. It's like, leave it alone. It was like this for a reason. I think if we brought in some of the wild type Brussels sprout varieties, you wouldn't even recognise them as Brussels sprouts. Wow.

They are so, so different from what we see today and it's been a natural process over thousands and thousands of years it's just people selecting what they like you know what tastes good or what looks fun or what's easy to grow and now we're just using science to kind of speed up that process and make things a bit easier for growers there's lots of pressure from pest and disease and pressure from climate but we still want to eat those Brussels sprouts. So we kind of need to help them along a little bit. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Rachel, slightly left field question, do they contain arsenic? So this is quite interesting, actually. So one of the things about brassicas is they're really great for bioremediation. So they have this great ability to pick up things that are in the soil

that maybe we don't want there, so heavy metals and such, and sequester that into the plant. So there was some scientific research done that actually, if you look at the amount of arsenic contained within people following a diet containing Brussels sprouts versus a diet without Brussels sprouts, you see elevated arsenic levels and that is the ability of those plants to actually sequester that arsenic into those sulfurous compounds which is then passed down the food chain but you've got to eat an awful

lot of brussel sprouts to actually have any effect okay um well um don't worry yeah mean, how many? Yeah, just rein it in. I mean, it's not just sprouts. So if you think of things like fish and rice as well. So there's a whole range of food. Well, we have got a nutritionist with us. In fact, Charlotte, we'll come to you now. If you've just joined us, by the way, welcome to Woman's Hour and happy Christmas. We are doing a deep dive into the sprout. We've just heard about research into bioengineering for climate and pest resistance. But let's go back to the point about bitterness.

And Charlotte, my next guest, Charlotte Hunter, you are a menopause nutritionist and you know so much about this. So now we are all ears looking at you. You're not keen on the bitterness being bred out of the sprout, are you? Oh, definitely not. And I think I'm with Makita. I mean, it's like plastic surgery. Just leave it or, I don't know, breed in a duck that doesn't quack. I mean, it's just not right.

You know, you just shouldn't be doing it. Now you've brought ducks. Yeah, that's it. You've just got everyone on your side. That's such a great line because who doesn't want a non-quacking duck? Exactly. What are the health benefits then? should we be eating well i think why should women be yeah i mean i think there's there's so many things that you could talk about sprouts there are so many benefits to eating them but i think the first thing is really talking about our taste and andy

said quite a lot about this earlier you know we've got all these taste buds for salt, sweet, sour, if I missed one, sweet, sour, salty, umami, bitter. Bitter. The one we're meant to be talking about. Bitter, bitter. Menopause, menopause, menopause. And I think so many of us are steering away from bitter foods and I'm not really sure I agree that bitter foods are becoming more popular.

I think in certain circles they're perhaps trendy. But I think for most people most of the time, when you've got a choice in the supermarket, people are more inclined to pick carrots, peppers, squash, tomatoes, all the colourful vegetables, which are great. We should be eating lots of them because they are incredibly good for us but what about that middle aisle where you've got all the kale cabbage cauliflower all the weird greens you can't even pronounce that's where all

the the interesting stuff is and that's where the sprouts live and the big thing about sprouts is that they have got these bitter compounds which we've spoken about a lot already and those bitter flavors stimulate saliva and they set our digestive process in motion so you know your tummy starts rumbling and you start making sure that you're releasing the right amounts of acids, enzymes, hormones, all of these things control our digestion. So it's not just a tube that we chuck our food down and then put the rubbish out. You know, if only it was that simple.

It's a really, really complicated process. So the bitter flavours set off that reaction, really, and make sure that our digestion is healthy because really we can't be healthy if you're not digesting your food so what does that what does that set off then so it's called the cephalic phase of digestion that's starting in your head and actually if everyone closed their eyes it's a shame we can smell brussels already but if we couldn't smell brussels and we couldn't smell all this lovely food you would already start you know your mouth would literally start watering because you're thinking about thinking about food so that is right whenever i do any food items or talk about food or think

about food my mouth that i start salivating so it's doing it yeah and that's just making sure that we're we're setting off that process of digestion so we can break the food down in our stomach moves on through our intestines and we're able to absorb the nutrients and then get rid of the rest how does this all link into when we were out foraging for food yeah so i mean if you if you imagine our ancestors you know out looking for their food they're not going to look around go oh i'm only going to pick the really nice pretty colorful leaves that taste nice you know they're going to go along and just chuck everything in their bag and

cook it so there's much more variety so there wasn't the choice and I think now we've got too much choice that we do we go for those sweeter vegetables and sweeter flavours and we need less sugar and less sweetness in our lives certainly don't need more. I'd rather

have a brussel than a butternut squash. Oh God, yeah, me too. Any day of the week. Yeah, give me something bitter and vegetably. Let's get to the point about the dietary side of Brussels sprouts and why they're particularly good for women. So Brussels sprouts have something in them called phytoestrogens,

which are naturally occurring substances that mimic our natural estrogen, and they're found in plants. So there are certain foods like... Yes, we've got our pens and papers out. Andy, your mouth. This is... Yeah.

But there are lots of broad categories. So there are things like isoflavones, which you might have heard of in relation to soy, lignans and coumestan. Now, coumestan is the interesting one. And sprouts contain this, but specifically coumestrol. And you also find it in other brassicas, spinach, beans. And although phytoestrogens overall have a fairly weak estrogenic effect, say compared to our own

hormones or even HRT, it's the particular type in sprouts is actually quite strong. It's quite potent. And it's about 30 to 100 times more powerful than the soya isoflavones, which is crazy. Oh, there's going to be a rush on sprouts on Boxing Day. But there's a huge caveat, because obviously you'd have to eat mountains and mountains of sprouts. And the problem as well with phytoestrogens is that it's very difficult to know how much is in every single potential type.

So you couldn't just say, well, I'm going to eat a kilo of Brussels this week and that's me sorted. You would need to eat a variety of different foods. But Mother Nature is really clever, obviously. And there are phytoestrogens scattered throughout our diet. So if you're eating a very rich plant-based diet, then you're going to get lots of phytoestrogens naturally. And why do women particularly need these during menopause? How have our bodies changed from our

younger selves? Well, our poor oestrogen levels start going down. As you move through perimenopause, they start bouncing around, which is why we tend to get those really quite severe symptoms and very varied symptoms because we have oestrogen receptors all over our body head to toe and as we progress through perimenopause and into menopause those levels initially start going up and down and then they gradually just decline so we need all the help we can get really. So we can absolutely help ourselves by changing our diet. You can, yeah. I think it's one area that's worth thinking about. It's not a magic wand.

You can't, you know, suddenly decide to eat loads of fatty estrogens and fix your menopause. It's like sex in the city when Samantha loses her HRT. I love that you brought Sex and the City. Yes, go on. Yeah, and she's there scoffing hummus and jars of chickpeas and everything. And she's sitting there fanning herself. So it's not necessarily a magic wand,

but it's certainly one area that you can focus on if you're trying to improve your diet moving through do they contain iron they do they do so um they're a really good source of iron and of course we need iron to transport oxygen around our body it's important for energy production our metabolism and also for healthy blood cells which important for women so especially in perimenopause where women might experience quite dramatic changes to their cycles and may experience heavy periods you've got to keep on top of your iron levels so just not don't overdo them but just make sure you're eating them should

every woman be eating sprouts yeah i mean but they're part of that whole family and you know as our clever scientists have talked about you you know, it's not just sprouts. You've got broccoli, cauliflower, various greens. Claire, did you know this? You must have known this already. Well, all I know is I grow a load of my own fruit and veg and, you know, taste delicious. But I'm convinced it keeps me, my kids, all of us really healthy. You know, I'm always bringing in kale and Brussels and cabbages and from the garden straight into the pan, you know, and delicious.

Are they difficult to grow? They're not really. Because I don't have a garden. But you need a garden. You need a garden for an allotment. Can you do it on a balcony? Can you give us a very basic? It's more challenging.'s more challenging yeah i mean

if you want to grow from seed start early have a long long growing season so start plant your seeds in march in little modules you can put them on your windowsill whatever um get them going or you can sort of leave it a bit and just buy a little strip from the you know from a garden center or something put them out in may you they do grow quite big. They're about a metre tall, so make sure they've got enough room. Make sure you firm them in well because, you know, they're big and they get heavy, so a stake is quite good. What does firm them in well do? Well, just, you know, when you put them in,

put your feet around the edges so they're not... There is a saying that if you don't do that, they come out all flowery, but I think that's just an old tale that isn't true, as far as I'm aware. Same as the devil stuff. Same as the devil stuff, yeah. But, yeah, sort of make sure your plant isn't going to, you know, when it's windy, rock around too much.

I mean, really, you've just got to watch out for three things. You've got to watch out for the pigeons. Pigeons, first time I did it, didn't think. Put them out, grew them from seeds, lovely, lovely. Went out there, a few days later, the blasted pigeons have got the pigeons got the lot so that's you know and then it's heartbreaking they know about the health benefits they know about the health benefits yeah and then you know um they do butterflies then will lay their eggs on the undersides and so you do you know some of them have that sort of bred out but i've always found i need to cover them and make sure you get netting

which is small enough otherwise once again you can put netting which isn't small enough butterflies get in and then once again get a bit masculine so this does sound difficult as long as you do all these things it's fine and then um if you just put a little bit of cardboard around the bottom of the stem that can also protect them from getting what's kind of a fly rot sort of going down in and then just leave them. Just leave them. And, you know, and then... Menopausal pigeons. Hang on. Those pigeons love them.

I refer to one of our experts here. Charlotte, menopausal pigeons, disgust. No, actually, we'll come back to the health benefits of sprouting. Are you allowed to mention the calette? Ooh. I think they is amazing. But they're not a Brussels sprout. They're not a Brussels sprout.

Can someone enlighten me on what the calette is? So I grew this for the first time this year. It is the cross, I don't know, very recent cross between a Brussels sprout and kale. So they grow on a stalk just like the Brussels and they're like a little floret and you will pick them off just like that. And I grew them for the first time this year

and I had my first harvest about two weeks ago and they are so good. But I gather they have even more health benefits than a Brussels. So I'm not sure if we're allowed to mention that on this programme. We can and I think we need to find out exactly about the health benefits. Do they have more? I don't know specifically, actually. And Lauren, tell us more.

I have a vitamin C, which is a And Lauren, tell us more. When was it? I have a vitamin C. Yeah. Which is a really important vitamin for us all. So vitamin C is always good, particularly in winter. Is that because they're taking the great stuff from the kale and the great stuff from the Brussels, bringing them together and then that's just... Yeah, kind of.

Yeah, kind of. And whose idea was this? Give us the origin of this. The origin story of the colette i think it was breeding company tozers yeah yeah is that a british company it is yes and they're doing that because they know that this is what we our palates want essentially yes it's that as well but also we look at our food you know and think about what we want to eat so if you see something that's a bright color

you know if i offer you an orange cauliflower or a purple cabbage you know you've got that oh that's slightly different i'd really like to incorporate that into my diet so one of the jobs of those plant breeders is to go around and come up with these new ideas that might kind of stimulate our interest within within those brassica species marketing the brassicas so that we eat more definitely i mean it's worth bearing in mind that the breeding process is quite long i mean from your first cross through to the supermarket you're looking at a minimum of 10 years wow so breeders really need to be kind of future forecasting for these ideas so you may have seen the calettes this year or last year but actually those ideas were probably originally

thought about 10 to 15 years ago so So what ideas are being thought about now? I bet you've got the inside track, Lauren. Well, I mean, a lot of it is about resilience to pest and disease and, of course, climate change, but thinking very much about nutrition, so nutrition for the plant, growing healthy plants, but also nutrition for us, making us happier and healthier. One of the things I'm working on at the moment is, you know, we've had a lot of talk about vertical farming and actually how do we adapt our brassicas that are grown in

the field to growing to a situation indoors where we can produce them rapidly because obviously the sprout life cycle it's quite long to get that so how can we shorten that down and actually produce that in a short period of time so we can get year-round supply although there's something special about having it once a year you know in that kind of special moment and you know looking forward to it and you know are there more health benefits when you have them raw yes how should we be cooking yeah let's ask charlotte our nutrition yeah how should we be eating them i mean in terms how you eat i think the best way is to eat them how you like them and then that

means that you know you will get the nutrition in them i mean they really are powerhouses of nutrition they've got so much going for them b vitamins vitamin c's we talked about vitamin k potassium i mean the list goes on and on and on. Certain nutrients like vitamin C are quite vulnerable to cooking. So you heat that up and it's going to quickly disappear. But I mean, it's a question I'm asked all the time, especially by people I work with. But I just say, look, eat the food how you enjoy it, because you're better off eating it how you enjoy it

than not eating it at all. And I think with brassicas, because they are bitter and not everyone is a fan um you know it's it's about finding ways that you you enjoy them so how did the romans eat them well this is where they they ate them with very interesting other whole mixture of different herbs. So, in fact, you can add in, Apicius was saying that he would add in cumin, salt, wine and oil.

Add, if you like, pepper, lovage, mint or rue, coriander and also a bit of oil or wine. Oh God, they knew what they were doing. Totally. I mean, the Romans were just ahead of the game, weren't they? That's a lot. I think you you could choose i don't think you necessarily well i think aphesius was obviously he was perhaps being a little bit let's try some of this some of that

yeah maybe the wine the wine isn't in the sprout maybe the wine is just on the side copious and i was just going to say as well another important thing is that it's how sensitive you are to the brassicas because if you've got quite sensitive tummy you might not want to be eating raw brussels you know that might really upset your tummy and you'd be better off with something cooked so i think that's worth bearing in mind talking of our tummies the most important question uh charlotte do they give do. Yeah. I mean, this should really be in the first question. We all want to know this, don't we? At the top of the hour, we should have started.

But we have arrived at the most important question. I feel privileged that it's my BBC debut and I get to talk about this. And people are turning up the volume around the nation. Right, we're all ears.

So Brussels sprouts contain a complex sugar called raffinose, which all brassicas, actually not just sprouts, are pretty high in. And those sugars are broken down by galactosidase. I can never say that. I had to write this in capital to try and remember how to say it but we don't actually produce that much if we eat a lot of raffinose though our body just has to work extra hard and there's a small price to pay for breaking down these sugars and that's hydrogen carbon dioxide and methane otherwise known as stinky farts. It's a small price to pay.

And it's really good for you, rich in iron, you know, phytoestrogens, but you're going to... But there's more, there's more. It doesn't stop there because brassicas, as we've discussed as well, are quite high in sulphur. So you've got this lovely cocktail of quite potent gases and smells. Lovely. Happy Christmas. Christmas Day.

Don't feed them to your dog. I wonder how many dogs are going to get sprouts on this. My dogs eat sprouts. I've got three chihuahuas and they quite happily run off with a sprout each. Luckily they're small enough to, well, yeah, better leave it there. OK, so the choice is yours. But the bottom line is they're really good for us. And so really, we should all be eating sprouts.

Yeah. In terms of the wind, though, not everyone gets it, do they? Sorry, that was a bit personal. Yeah, never. No one in this... I'm a lady. No one but us. It's always someone else. never no one in this no one we've got scientists in the room come on someone can please answer this question for us well if it's reliant on the enzyme it depends how much of the enzyme you've got so different people will be producing different levels of the enzyme i think with dogs you can give them charcoal to actually mop up the smell.

Maybe charcoal biscuits are the way forward. Does that work for humans as well then? I would assume so. Well, you've heard it here first. All women need sprouts in their life. Thank you to everyone who got in touch online. We've read some of yours out, but here's a selection of what some of you had to say.

I happen to be married to a man whose name is Brussels sprout. His real birth name is Russell Stout, but for obvious reasons that became Brussels sprout. And it's been a source of shame to him and much comedy for everybody else, including me and my family. Hi, I'm Alison. I absolutely love sprouts and have a sort of long family history of eating sprouts really. My parents grew them on the allotment and somehow convinced my brother and me that drinking the sprout water before Sunday lunch was a real treat and it was only when we became adults and asked our friends we realised that this wasn't normal. Hello I'm Bridget. I'm 60 and sprouts are never, ever,

ever going to pass my lips again. I feel that they are the devil's spawn. They are the little wee cabbages that actually look like little brains. They have the same mushy texture and the taste that's bitter, it goes up your nose.

Are they just vile? Hello, my name's Jenny and I live in North Devon and a group of friends and I are true sprout fans and we encourage each other with little messages each Christmas. And I once found a card with a sprout wreath on, so I wrote a poem to put in it and send it to them all. No Christmas feast should be without the presence of the mighty sprout cooked to a blob or trendily crisp like it or lump it it's not to be missed. There we go, an ode to a sprout. I hope they make you feel poetic too. Why do we persevere with them at Christmas? Is it part

of the British stiff upper lip or do we like suffering? Why do we, Rosalind? Because they're so delicious. In fact, as I was sitting here now, I was just thinking, we do something called a mulled wine cabbage at this time of the year. And I think a mulled wine Sprat would be brilliant. Just fried onions, your Sprat's wine, some apple juice. There's a Swedish version of that where they use white cabbage and they put it in the oven and a little bit of honey and they keep turning it and turning it with loads of butter.

And they do it for hours and that would be bit of honey and they keep turning it and turning it with loads of butter. And they do it for hours. And that would be amazing. Brilliant for sprouts, wouldn't it? We've only got a few minutes left of the programme. So I think we should hear from all of you, my wonderful studio guests, your favourite sprout recipes, as it is the final countdown. If there could only be one sprout recipe that you could eat for the rest of your life. And let's start on this. Let's start with you, Rosalind, and we'll work our way around.

Mine has to be traditional boiled sprouts, chestnuts and brown butter. Lovely. Claire? Oh, out into the garden, snap it off with your fingers, straight into the steamer and once again, steamed. I don't even need the chestnuts just a tiny little bit of now browned butter now i know yes brown butter all the way and i love the detail of snapping off with your fingers let's just get in there no messing how about you sue well my daughter was a one of those lifelong sprout haters until she cooked christmas lunch for us one day and she

came up with this lovely shredded stir-fried sprouts with a bit of pancetta chestnuts tiny bit of garlic now she loves them and so do we because she makes the sprouts lovely andy oh so many i love it so many so many i guess probably at this point like a raw sprout slaw but with a very limey roast garlic gingery uh really good olive oil or extra cold pressed rapeseed oil dressing just really kind of punchy but very sprouty in its essence i think it's also the way you describe it i have to say it because i'm really into that i would eat them like i eat all vegetables, all my green vegetables, just loads of butter, salt and pepper. And that's what I love about green vegetables.

That's all they need. And sprouts are just beautiful like that. And as Rosalind said, al dente. Oh, yeah. Classic. How about you, Charlotte? The food nutritionist. Yeah.

So I like eating sprouts with rich foods. So if you've got a curry or a sauce or something else, I think the sprouts are just really lovely, just steamed as they are to compliment whatever else you're eating. Lauren? Yeah. I love them lightly steamed, but I like doing loads of extras so you can put them in a bubble and squeak the next day.

Love the leftovers. And now Rachel, who's just, poor Rachel. She's a brassica expert and hates them, hates sprouts, and has had to endure us all talking and umming and ahhing. Do you have a sprout recipe? I would just have that token Brussels sprout on Christmas Day.

I like that it's still giving. Just to say that I've had it. Tell us about your funny story, though, about sprouts. So we're a group of brassica scientists. So as a Christmas get-together, what do you do? You all turn up and you bring a brassica dish. So you can have your Brussels sprout and Stilton quiche. You can have your lasagna with a Brussels sprout base.

So that's mostly sprouts and cheese sauce. And then one of the students turned up with the candied brussel sprout so think of a toffee apple but replace the apple with a sprout it was definitely an experience no no no one's buying that one yeah that's it you've killed it for all of us look at how satisfied you've done it i'm gonna leave you all with my favourite Brussels sprout recipe. Absolute game changer. Very simply, my mum's curried Brussels sprouts with potato. It's like an aloo gobi, but just replace the cauliflower with sprouts.

Boom. And then that's chickpeas and sprouts? Just potato and sprouts. Oh, yeah, potato. Potato and sprouts. Oh, my God. Did you actually hear my stomach crumble? Mama Rani.

Oh, Mama Rani. I want to thank all of you for joining me Christmas Day to do a deep dive into sprouts. The memory of this programme and the smell of this studio will never leave me. All that's left to be said from everyone here in the studio is... Happy Christmas! That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

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