Woman's Hour - The rise of right-wing female leaders in Europe.

Episode Date: April 3, 2023

Nuala McGovern talks to Costanza Hermanin from the European University Institute in Florence and Sarah De Lange from the University of Amsterdam about the success of this new breed of female leader.In Afghanistan, the new school year has started. But for the second year running, a Taliban ban is keeping teenage girls out of school. The BBC World Service has launched a brand-new education series for children in the country aged 11-16 who are deprived from school, including girls whose secondary education has been stopped by the ruling Taliban. It's called Dars, which means 'lesson' in Dari and Pashto, the two national languages in Afghanistan. It is the first multi-platform educational programme for Afghan youth. We hear from one of the presenters of the programme Shazia Haya and one of its producers, Mariam Amam.Are you afraid of the big, bad wolf? Where does this fear come from? Author Erica Berry was determined to find out after researching wild wolves in her home state of Oregon. In her book ‘Wolfish’ she searches through folklore and literature to see how wolves have become the symbol of predatory men and how that has shaped our fear. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Now, if I say wolf, what comes to mind? A fairy tale? Or maybe you think of a werewolf? Or maybe you think it's an animal you'd like to see reintroduced to the UK? Well, my guest Erica Berry has written A Wolfish. It is a fascinating journey about the place of wolves in our consciousness. And she actually follows real life wolves in Oregon.

But she also looks at how some of our early introductions to wolfish characters shape our actions and our fears as we grow up. It's fascinating stuff that's coming up. We also want to speak about the rise of female right-wing politicians. Rika Pura, you might have seen her, the leader of the Finns party. She had success in yesterday's election, though not winning outright. She could form part of a coalition government. If I talk about Italy's Giorgia Maloney, you might know that name.

She grabbed headlines since she took power in Italy in October 2022 as Prime Minister. Recently, her government banned chat GPT. She's now trying to penalise using English words

in official Italian communications. So we'll talk about her. But I'm also wondering if you've been following the Netherlands where Caroline van der Plas caused what was called a Dutch political earthquake

what is it about this particular moment that is seeing this upsurge of women on the right in these positions we'll talk about all of that and then at the other end of the spectrum

we'll speak about a new BBC project to try and help children who are struggling to access education in Afghanistan. My Afghan colleagues will be here to tell us all about

what they hope to achieve in a country now dominated by the Taliban's rulings. If you want to get in touch on any of those stories, also pretty curious about what you think of when I say wolf or wolfish,

text the programme 84844. You can catch us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. And if you'd like to leave us a voice note or WhatsApp message, that number is 03700 100 444.

But let us begin with divorce. You may have seen the headlines today that according to new Ministry of Justice figures, divorce applications have risen to the highest level in a decade. Now, suggestions for the increase, say financial strains,

could lie behind the rise. But on Thursday, it is a year since no-fault divorce was introduced. So what is the impact of that, Hod? I'm joined by Louise Barreto, Specialist Family Solicitor at Russells and Therese Callis, Professor of Law at the University of Reading. Good morning. Morning. Good morning. Let me start with you, Louise. You know, when you hear about that 10-year high,

are you surprised or does it resonate with what you're seeing? I'm not surprised, really. We've got the no-fault system in place so I think that makes it simpler for people to issue divorce proceedings. I mean essentially you can do it online now at the click of a button but also I think the financial strain that people are finding themselves under has also pushed people to start looking at divorce. Financial strains obviously cause a lot of strain in marriage. And so people are thinking very carefully about their future. It's so interesting, because you might think also, Louise, though, a divorce would be expensive. Would no-fault divorce, has that kind of subtracted from the equation?

You know, the divorce itself is not the expensive bit. The divorce is the formal bit that's done online. And basically, you've got to pay a court fee. And if you do it yourself, there's very little further expense. It's sorting out the finances that's expensive. And that hasn't changed. You know, you have to, well, you don't have to, but most people are advised to get some advice from a solicitor um some choose not to but that's still the same

let me forgive me louise just stepping in so that's still the same but it's really that part of perhaps dividing the assets or trying to decide how to do so is the bit that causes money uh ironically uh let me turn to you to raise what what do you think the bit that causes money, ironically. Let me turn to you, Therese. What do you think when you hear about that, a 10-year high? Well, I think, as Louise has said, it's not really surprising. I think more than perhaps the current financial crisis that we're seeing now, I think lockdown and coming out of lockdown actually has some contribution to that number because there seems to be a certain proportion of couples

who felt that their marriages were empty shells and lockdown really convinced them of that. I think that's definitely an important aspect. And with respect to the new process, it's certainly too early to say that it's the new process that's leading to this highest number of divorces. And as Louise said, of course, the most tricky part of divorce, even in the old process, is the financial provision and the arrangements for children. Well, let's talk about that in a moment. But, you know, I'm struck by that word that you used, Trace, or two words, empty shell during a pandemic.

I know we spent an awful lot of time with our partners. I was seeing, and I'd be curious for both of your thoughts on this, among opposite sex couples in 2021, females were more likely to petition for divorce, 63.1% compared with males at 36.9%. And I believe that's been the case for a while.

First to you, Therese, what have you found? What do you think is leading women in that way? There are probably a combination of factors, but certainly we see demographically it is more women who are petitioning for divorce, more in their sort of middle 40s so women often who who may well now in that age bracket have a career have independent earning capacity and are therefore feel more able to proceed with with divorce and able to support themselves afterwards uh 84844 is this your experience did the pandemic in any way push you towards a divorce?

Does the fact no-fault divorce is there prompt you, in fact, to take that step? Let me go back to you, Louise. With women, what do you hear from them about why they've made that choice? I think Therese is right that lockdown really did put a microscope on people's problems in their marriage and I think although it's been a while now since lockdown I think people have been thinking really hard I mean by the time people actually pushed that button they they thought about it very carefully and they've normally had some advice so they know what the consequences are and I think you know just being locked up in home with your partner um can lead people to realize that it's not the right partner

and they've got more time to think about it i also agree that you know women are more financially independent these days and so feel more confident in taking that first step. And so coming back to, as we talked about, the division of financial assets, there is going to be a review, isn't there, Louise, about exactly how those assets will be divided. I think it's 50 years the current ones have been on the books, so probably time to take a look at it. How do you see it at the moment or what might be changing well i think that the difficulty that people find at the moment is that our divorce rule when it comes to finances is so discretionary so you get you know outcomes from one judge but

are completely different to another judge's judgment. I think people find that quite difficult and they want more clarity and they want more certainty. And I think, you know, the Matrimonial Causes Act was passed in 1973, so it is very old, although it's sort of been refined by case law since then. People really don't know what the outcome is going to be. And family lawyers can give you an idea of the kind of spectrum of possible outcomes. But, you know, it's not for nothing that we are known as the divorce capital of the world because we get nice high maintenance claims given here. And I'm wondering, Therese, how you've seen that. This is, as Louise is mentioning there

the divorce capital of the world in London but how do women fare with that then if in fact so many more women are financially stable and perhaps the breadwinner in the household? Well I think there are a number of issues really that Louise has raised and you yourself have said that the law is quite dated. It comes from the Matrimonial Causes Act of 1973. But it has proposed really a broad framework, which on the one hand, it's true, is so discretionary that anybody like in Louise's shoes, advising somebody has a limited amount of certainty as to the outcome before the judge. However, there has been some thought by the Law Commission some years ago. I was involved with the Matrimonial Property Needs and Agreements Project that looked at both prenuptial agreements and more widely how to address needs of the families. And the Family Justice Council has published advice for individuals because let's remember that many people can't afford to pay for a lawyer

for advice on their financial provision, and therefore they act for themselves. So there has been quite a steer towards providing more information for individuals as to the sorts of things to consider when trying to work out how to share the financial assets. Our research has shown, research that I was involved in, looking at matrimonial regimes, so the idea that you might contract when you get married as to what will happen to the provision of the finances, which is quite common in a lot of civil law jurisdictions in France, in Germany, in the Netherlands. The difficulty, of course, is having some sort of

set formula. And that's really where in England, we come up against the conflict between discretion on the one hand, which gives uncertainty, and a rigid fixed formula that may give us certainty, but may produce more hardship at the end of the day. Let me see. One person has got in touch here saying, this is me. I'm 64 and getting divorced. Lockdown was a massive factor,

but I had been thinking about it for a long time. I've been married nearly 31 years. What do you think about that, Louise? Well, I think that's exactly what we're talking about, isn't it? I mean, it's one important thing with people who are getting divorced in their later years is obviously pensions. And I know there's some statistics about how a lot of women are not actually getting pension share. So, you know, that's quite important. By age 64, you know that's quite important by age 64 you know there might be quite a chunky pension either for

both or for one of them which needs to be looked at and it's more valuable than you know the family home So that's so interesting, so what do you think people should be doing Louise if in fact they're thinking about divorce what sort of precautions

should they be taking when it comes to the asset of a pension? Well, I think that you need to get proper advice. I mean, it is, it's, I think, a false economy to try and do it yourself.

Even if you only take limited advice, just to find out what your rights are, so that you have an idea of what the court can order and what you should be looking for. And I think you need to be very careful when choosing your solicitor because it is a stressful period. You know you're going to spend a lot of time with your solicitor so

you need to make sure that you've got someone who gets you. We're all supposed to know the law but divorce is more about, it's about the law but it's also about knowing and understanding your client and what they need and what their priorities are that's a difficult time yes so to raise your top my pensions there 84844 if you want to share your story um i'm wondering as well with this do you think post covid post the, post the pandemic, probably not post-COVID, that's still there, but post the pandemic, will things begin to tail off again? Do you think that was the peak? It would be lovely to have a crystal ball, wouldn't it? I'm not sure, to be honest.

I do wonder whether we may not yet have seen the peak. And Louise is absolutely right pensions are a very important aspect that that individuals need to to consider. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us the story we've been looking at this morning is according to Ministry of Justice figures that applications divorce applications rising to their highest level in a decade 84844 if you want to share your story. And I want to thank Louise Barreto, Specialist Family Solicitor at Russell's and Therese Callis,

Professor of Law at the University of Reading. I want to move on now to Afghanistan. The new school year has started. But for the second year running, a Taliban ban is keeping teenage girls out of school. The BBC World Service has launched a brand new education series for children in the country aged 11 to 16

who are deprived from school, including girls whose secondary education has been stopped by the ruling Taliban. It's called DARS, which means lesson in Dari and also in Pashto, the two national languages in Afghanistan. It is the first multi-platform educational program for Afghan youth. Let's hear from some of the girls in Afghanistan who've accessed some of the lessons. I am from Gandahar. I was very happy watching the program. It feels like I am in an educational environment where I can learn new things. It feels like being in a new school. So I am sending you this voice note to say I am very happy. Hi, my name is Sadaf and I'm 12 years old. It has been about two years since we were banned from

school. Last year when we went back to school at the beginning of the school year, only after a couple of hours they shut the schools again and told us to return home. We hoped to return to school this year, but it didn't happen and only boys went back to school. Our future is very unclear, but the new programme the BBC has launched gives us hope. The fact that we can study again and progress give us hope. It's like light in a very dark tunnel. We thank the BBC for the programme. Well, let's hear more about the programmes. I'm joined in the studio by one of the presenters of the programme, Shazia Haya, and one of its producers, Mariam Aman. You're both very welcome. Thank you. And to let our listeners know, you did both flee the Taliban regime, Shazia, just in 2021 and Mariam two decades earlier. Mariam, what does this mean to you? I know you have a little cough this morning. Cough if you need to.

Let me start with Shazia, actually, instead. What does it mean to be part of this program? I left Afghanistan in 2021. I was among the lucky people that they could left Afghanistan for their own safety. And as a woman, as a journalist, my voice, my career, my rights are really important. And for having them, I left Afghanistan. But unfortunately, my cousins couldn't. They are schoolgirls back in Afghanistan. And every time they see me on TV, because I'm presenter for the TV as well, so every time they are sending me messages and they are calling me that,

OK, sister, we also have the same dreams like you. We also want to finish our studies because you finish your studies. And through that, you get your job and you are making a career for yourself. But what we do in that time, I didn't have any answer for them. But right now I do have an answer for my own cousins. And that's that's that's our program for them. I'm really lucky. I'm really honored to be part of this program.

And one important thing. My mother is an educated woman, but she doesn't understand English. And she's the only fan of me. And she's watching me. And she just sent me a message yesterday she was really happy and she said that okay through English lessons I will learn English. So great. Yeah that's why this this this program is really important and as we heard some good feedbacks so from the day that we launched our programme, we're getting very positive feedback from schoolgirls, from children, even from mothers, from people.

And it's something really, really good that happened. Mariam, how did you go about this? I mean, what BBC materials were you drawing on to try and create these educational components? So from the moment the idea was given to us by our commissioning editor, Fiona Carrack, we worked together with different sides of the BBC, with Bite Size and with Learn English. With Bite Size, we took their coronavirus lessons that was really popular during pandemic. A lot of our listeners will remember them.

Remember that, Rose. So we took those and we kind of adapted it to our audiences in Afghanistan. So how do you do that? What do you need to do to adapt it to an Afghan audience? So the main job is to know your audience and to kind of tailor the material that was already provided, considering paying a bit of an extra attention to cultural sensitivities, to religious sensitivities, and also to know what the academic curriculum in Afghanistan entails and kind of trying to mirror those things with the material

available to us by our great Bitesize. I see. So the whole process we took, we took maths, science, English was a different department from Bitesize. We took maths, science, geography, and a lot more from explorers to everything else. And we put it into our own filter thinking, and we consulted some of the Afghan experts who knew the Afghan curriculum quite well. We kind of came up with 12-week-long lessons that kind of has a logical sequence to them, because, mind you, our age range is quite wide.

It's 11 to 16. To cater for this age group is not an easy task. But you're out there and you're doing it. Shazi, I'm wondering the timing of these broadcasts. We were mentioning that schools open, but obviously not for girls. What if, because there are some that are supportive of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There are some that don't want girls to have an education, maybe even the girls within their family.

And I'm wondering, will it reach them? I think the best thing about that is a program that children, especially girls, they can watch at homes, at their homes. And I think we don't see any problem regarding that. Do we, Maryam Jan? So BBC broadcasts in different ways to Afghanistan. And we hope to reach these homes, be it rural Afghanistan, be it urban Afghanistan. And we hope that by putting it on repeat throughout the week and throughout the days, we will get, mind you, access to electricity in Afghanistan is also scarce.

So you will have sporadic hours of electricity during the day in the main cities. But rural Afghanistan is even worse than that. But we thought to put it on our most popular radio station. BBC has languages for both Pashto and Dari and they have quite wide reach. So they will listen to us from radio. Those who have access to electricity and satellite, they will watch us through our newly launched Afghanistan dedicated satellite channel that this programme will be on repeat. And for those who have greater access to internet, they will have access to this throughout the week on YouTube.

And we are cutting it short throughout the week and putting it on Facebook, which is popular in Afghanistan. So you expect to kind of hit it from lots of different angles. Yeah. You know, Shazia, that last time we spoke was actually just days before the Taliban took over. I did an interview with you and then we actually didn't air it because things changed over 24 hours.

And those 24 hours were really when the Taliban came into power in August 2021. You've told us about how you have fled since then and now you're here. But did you expect in 2023 that there would be a new generation of girls not having access to education? No, actually, this whole thing which is happening in Afghanistan, it's really scary. And I didn't expect that, especially, I mean, it's really scary. And I didn't expect that, especially. I mean, it's really difficult. It's like a nightmare for children, especially for girls in Afghanistan, for my own cousins.

I do speak with them every time. And I do feel that how much they have been through. What was it like for you when you were growing up? In Afghanistan? Yeah, you mentioned your mother was educated. Yeah, actually, my mother was a teacher, actually. She is an educated woman, but when she got married, then she was not allowed to work. So in most families, the male members of family,

they are not very supportive and actually they are against the work of women and they don't give that much support for education. So I got my education and all this support just from my mother's side. So the women of my family actually are those warriors that by help of them now I'm here and they all credit it goes just to to my mum because my mum wanted me to finish school

my mum wanted me to finish university my mum wanted me to be a journalist and and up today up till now she's every time she's sending me messages, voice messages on WhatsApp, she's just saying that, don't give up. You will have a bright future. I'm there for you. I'm there for you. In every message, you can hear the same thing, that don't give up. And you're not.

And I'm not, just because of my mother, because of a woman. So my life, my success, it's all just because of my mother, because of a woman. So my life, my success, it's all just because of my mother. May I ask, and you can of course not answer if you don't want to, on your father's side of the family then? So the male members of my family, including my father and my uncles, although they are educated men, but no, they are not supportive of my education. And they are against my career no they don't they don't proud uh that uh their their daughter or uh their daughter of their family is a journalist right now it's just my mom uh he's feeling uh proud that so being a journalist wasn't a job for a woman according to your father or your father's family yeah even just working it's not about being a journalist

my father was really happy if he could see me in the kitchen or if he could see me married with some having some children Wow, that's so interesting to kind of get that snapshot within one Afghan household

as you speak about it. Maryam I'm wondering as well because it is such heightened tensions, are there dangers with this programme? Not that so far we envisage anything. We have been consulting various parties on this and we are so far from what the Taliban have been doing, although there is a tight grip of Taliban over media and whatever they've deemed to be un-Islamic or un-cultural,

not un-cultural against the Afghan culture, they would ban it or they would take it off. But home consumption and for a program like ours, which we have tried to put it in probably the most academic way, there is no political messaging in this programme. We are purely targeting these youth who are deprived from schooling for one reason or another. We do not envisage any threat to the consumption

of what we are putting out there. So interesting to have both of you on and to hear about your stories. That's Mariam Aman and also Shazia Haya. And to let you know, the first 12-week series of DARS will air four times a day, Saturday to Friday,

on the newly launched BBC News Afghanistan channel. Half our programme will also be available, as Mariam was telling us, via BBC News Pashto and BBC News Dari Facebook channels on radio and also be part of the BBC Persian TV channel schedule. Thank you so much. I do want to let you know

that I'm going to have a programme coming up on Easter Monday. You'll know an awful lot more about artificial intelligence by the end of it. Woman's Hour will be doing that special programme looking at the world of AI and also how women fit into it. We want to hear from you.

How do you feel about the rapid advancement of AI in the world today? Are you worried or excited? Maybe you have a question for our experts. Well, you can get in touch via text. That's 84844

or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. Lots of you getting in touch about divorce. Let me see. I'm 59 and going through divorce. It's been going on for 18 months. Your speaker is so right about the importance of finding someone who gets you. Finally had to end my instructions with my previous solicitor as she didn't. I'm still living under the same

roof as my husband as she didn't. The solicitor understand my position. I've now found a new one. It's a different story. I feel so much more supported. Another person saying, I'm also so lucky in the solicitor I chose. She made sure I got a fair share of my husband's pension. She passed away before the divorce came through, but her work made sure I got a fair settlement. I think of her frequently.

She was a very good solicitor and a great support throughout the process. Keep it coming, 84844. We're going to talk about wolves a little bit later. Debbie got in touch. I'm a wildlife artist and recently painted a large, beautiful grey wolf in winter. What beautiful creatures, such wildness and power.

I feel a real connection with its free spirit. I'm talking about wolves in lots of different ways, so that'll be coming up a little later. But first, let us turn to right-wing female political leaders across Europe. We were reporting last year with the election of Giorgio Maloney

from the Fratelli d'Italia, or Brothers of Italy Party. She became Prime Minister of Italy. Six months into the job, she's been tipped as one of the most influential and also popular leaders on the continent. And she's not alone. There is another woman who's joined the ranks of female leaders on the continent. And she's not alone. There is another woman who's joined the ranks of female leaders

on the right of the political spectrum. That's Caroline van der Plas from the populist Farmer Citizen Movement. She topped the polls in the Dutch regional elections and her party now has control of the upper house. Apparently may go further. I'm joined by the academic Costanza Hermannin from the European University Institute in Florence.

And her research has looked at why the left has been less successful in getting women into positions of power. Also, Sarah De Langer from the University of Amsterdam, who has researched the rise of right and left wing populism

across Europe. You're both very welcome to Women's Hour. I want to start with you, Costanza. Last night in Finland. Good morning. Sanamarin, the centre-left prime minister, was defeated last night by the Conservative Party.

They're called the National Coalition Party. Its leader is Petteri Orpo. Now, he may form a government with the right-wing Finns Party. Its leader is Rika Pura. Considered by some as the opposite of Sanna Marin. She did have a successful night. Tell us a little bit more about Miss Pura and her rise.

Well, it's a phenomenon that we are seeing consistently emerging in Europe, right? We have had Giorgia Meloni in Italy, but the very first is Marine Le Pen or Sarah Palin in the United States, actually. So there was a change in leadership in the Finns before they were called the true Finns. And we see another woman leader emerging and bringing the party to a victory.

Well, a second post. I don't think it's extremely likely to have a right-wing coalition with the moderates and the extreme right-wing Finns. In Finland, the talks are still that there might be a coalition with the social democrats. But, I mean, we should ask ourselves why we see all these women on the extreme right wing of the political spectrum because um it's women with no um equality agenda rather with a very conservative um traditional agenda. So what do you think it is then? I mean, Costanza, what's the first thing that comes to your mind about why these women might be rising up through the ranks?

I mean, when I looked just briefly at Rica, Pura anti-immigration was one of the first things that popped out. And I mean, that would remind me of Marine Le Pen really back in the day too. And Georgia Maloni as well. Their anti-immigration agenda is extremely strong. And it is placed completely in an extreme right-wing narrative about demographic trends and the fact that we shouldn't be replaced by people coming from outside Europe. Their nationalism is also embodied by their desire to support local demographic trends, traditional family policies about natality and assistance to traditional families. It's something that we have seen very, very strongly coming also from Dugin, from Russia.

So it's a pan-European narrative about holding up to ourselves, our identity, our even our, let's say, yes, I mean, the place where we are born and the fact that we are Europeans different from the others, white, and we should be preserved as such. And that's interesting, but I wonder, like, why women? Why women? My explanation, personal explanation, is that this is women who conform very much to a model of politics

that is traditionally looking at traditional values that are accepted by men as well. They don't bring any revolutionary agenda in terms of change of rules in society. They, in a sense, behave like men, they act like men, they propose the same policies, whereas leaders, women leaders on the center-left, they are more rare, because they also are, to my reading reading opposed from within the parties because they bring a very revolutionary agenda think about all the press about sanda marines habits about women leaders crying or resigning bringing in a different really conception of what it means to be a leader i understand so you feel, and this is your opinion,

of course, some may disagree, that on the left, the women are creating a new type of leadership. Sanna Marin, for those who don't remember, she was drinking and dancing and there was a video that got out and it turned into a whole furore.

She had to take a drugs test, I believe, which was negative, which she always maintained. She was just having a good time. She's in her 30s. But people are like, oh, can a politician do that? Interestingly, the person Petri Orpo, who has won in Finland, somebody says he's like the dream son-in-law without any controversy. Sarah, let me turn to you because Costanza has outlined some of how she sees it,

and particularly those traditional values and not rocking the boat really. Caroline van der Plas in the Netherlands, she looks like somebody who might rock the boat, you know, she looks a little bit more flamboyant. It's also the farmer's citizen movement. Tell us a little bit about how you think her, I suppose, popularity came about. Yes, well, let me start by saying that she's slightly different from the leaders that we've been talking about. So the Finns leader, the Maloney, Marine Le Pen, they're all leaders of what we call populist radical right parties that primarily campaign on immigration and especially also on Islam as a religion that's not compatible with West European values. Caroline von der Plass is definitely populist,

but she propagates a sort of agrarian populism, describing citizens in rural areas as, you know, people with common sense that are hardworking and that in that respect are very different from the elite in the center of the Netherlands, in the capital Amsterdam, and in the residence in The Hague. So the cultural elite and the political elite there is out of touch with what ordinary citizens experience on a daily basis in terms of their economic situation, etc. And she also very much supports farmers in the current battle over the reduction of nitrogen emissions. So that was sort of her platform. It's populist, but it's not necessarily radical, right, as the platform of the other politicians we've been talking about. Do you think, sorry, forgive me for stepping on you

there. I was just going to ask Sarah, you know, whether you think Caroline Van Der Plas has her party's backing to actually go further? Well, we've seen since she has been elected to the lower house, so she's been the only representative of her party in the lower house since the 2021 elections. And we've seen that on votes on immigration issues, she has voted with the populist radical right parties that are already represented in the Netherlands and most notably Geert Wilders PVV. So it could be that she is moving a bit in that direction. On the other hand, she's very keen to govern,

to compromise with mainstream parties, which also makes that she can't go too far in that direction because she will be ostracized then by the mainstream parties. So she's walking a fine line. Right. And I'm also thinking back to what Costanza was saying there about, you know, the model of the woman on the right, so to speak. Obviously, Caroline van der Plas, a different model in a way, but that the left, that they've had to kind of revolutionize within that party and have a different type of leadership when they rise to the top. How do you understand the lack of female leaders in left-leaning parties in Europe? Well, if we look at the Netherlands, that's not the case. So contrary to what many people believe,

the Netherlands is not a very progressive country when it comes to women's rights. And that is reflected in politics. So we have a very low share of female politicians. We've never had a female prime minister. And when it comes to female politicians leading parties, they we see predominantly men on the right. And this is also what makes Caroline van der Plaats particularly exceptional. She is the only leader currently of a large party on the right. And she appeals to citizens greatly because of her very, she's on the one hand flamboyant, and she manages to merge that

with really the idea of being an ordinary citizen rather than a professional politician. Okay, which is something suited up. She used very simple language, also sometimes swears. She's very open about her personal life on social media, talks about her diet, etc. So she really tries to almost be an anti-politician who has entered politics because she had no other choice. She had to go because citizens were being suppressed by the elites. And now she's in that role. Back to you, Costanza. I'm wondering, are there any other women that you think we should be watching, particularly you have the European elections happening next year? Well, the European election is going to be very interesting

because we might face a competition, woman against woman. I mean, voices point to the fact that the defeated Sanna Marin from Finland could actually be the candidate for the president of the European Commission, for the presidency of the European Commission for the socialists. Whereas on the centre-right or on the right wing, we might see a coalition in between the European People's Party and the Conservatives that are now, were now led by Italian Georgia Meloni

because the ECR is, because the Tories are out of ECR. And the likely candidate is the present president of the European Parliament, Roberta Mazzola. So we might see this competition next year is going to be very, very interesting. And talk me through what's happening. We mentioned there France and Italy, for example, a little bit of Malta, the Netherlands. What about places like Spain? Well, places like Spain are extremely interesting

because at this moment in time, they have the most progressive policies in terms of women's rights and policies for equality. They have introduced what I think is the longest compulsory paternity leave, fully paid with the last government, it's up to 16 weeks. And over the past decade, they've had a very high share of members of parliaments who are women, and also local politicians who are women. Because also in countries that have a lot of women in parliament, in general, mayors and regional councils, etc., are very much male-dominated. It was the case in Germany during the entire Merkel period, for instance. Yeah, I wonder what you think, Sarah, the legacy of Angela Merkel was on female politicians, if anything?

Well, I'm not sure if she's considered to be a role model for how to be a female politician, because she really sort of did everything to not stand out as a female politician. She didn't emphasize any side of her femininity in any way. You know, always being in identical suits, just changing the colors along the way. So in that respect, I don't think that she is a particular role model for female politicians on the right. Do you think Giorgio Maloney's model will be? role models in the sense that they come across as very strong professional politicians that manage to merge femininity with quite harsh stances on immigration and integration,

also emphasizing the gender dimension within these issues. And I think that is something that can be very successful. So if we look, for example, at the electorate of Marine Le Pen, we've seen that she has managed to attract just about as many female voters as male voters, which for populist radical right parties is quite unique. If we look at Caroline van der Plaas, she's not there yet. So in the provincial elections, she had 55% of male voters and only 45% of female voters, which is about the same ratio that the PVV of Gerrit Wilders also has. So it's not a given that a female leader of a populist right-wing party is able to attract female

voters. It really depends on the kinds of issues that are mentioned and how they're framed, etc. I understand. And often of course the female voter, as we've seen in the States as well, is often the coveted voter,

as we'll no doubt start seeing in various elections around the world as well. Sarah DeLanger, thank you so much. Costanza Hermanin, great to have your insights on the rise of the right female politician. Lots of people getting in touch about divorce and also wolves.

And let me see. Well, I'm just looking at some of the wolf stories that are coming in, which will be, of course, for my next guests. Let me see. I, I'm just looking at some of the wolf stories that are coming in, which will be, of course, for my next guests. Let me see. I always think of the 1980s BBC adaptation of John Macefield's The Box of Delights when I hear about wolves. The idea that robbers could turn into wolves

was both haunting and thrilling as a young child. And still to this day, I love the eeriness of the line, the wolves are running. You can't imagine the impact of this concept with any other animal. There's something magical and mystical about wolves. And that comes in from Rachel. Thanks so much for getting in touch, Rachel. 84844 if you want to get in touch with Women's Hour by text.

Because what we want to ask you really at this point is, are you afraid of the big bad wolf? Where does that fear come from? What should you do with that fear? The author Erica Berry was determined to find out after researching wild wolves in her home state of Oregon. In her book, Wolfish, she searches through folklore, also literature, to see how wolves have become

the symbol of predatory men for some, and also the language we use derived from the wild animals. Erica, welcome. Thank you so much. Good to have you with us. I know you got up very early for us. So it's part memoir, part animal study, all fascinating stuff. How did you come to link some of your fears

with our perhaps collective fear of wolves? You know, I really didn't set out to do that. I thought I'm going to do this serious journalistic project where I just look at the wolves as sort of the real animal. And then while I was doing my reporting and studying it for an environmental studies thesis project at college, I had experiences with men where I would be reporting and I would feel afraid and I wasn't sure whether to trust that fear. I had an experience on a train where I would be reporting and I would feel afraid and I wasn't sure whether to trust that fear. I had an experience on a train where I was going to a cabin to do work and a man sat down next to me and, you know, what came out was that he was writing me these letters that were

threatening and I didn't know in that moment to trust my fear. And so I started thinking about Little Red Riding Hood in many of these instances. And it was a story that I'd never thought much about. I didn't want to dwell on it. And suddenly I couldn't quite shake it. And I felt like that story, I'd always felt like it trapped the wolf in a certain way. It trapped this big bad wolf, but it also trapped a version of a girl that I didn't want to relate to. I didn't want to think of myself in that way. And I was uncomfortable with it. So how do you see Red Riding Hood now? I'm really curious what my listeners think about that. And I know there's different versions and whatnot, but the wolf is always there.

Yeah, I mean, I think so often it's a story about a girl who is going out to explore and that was the sort of girl I wanted to be. Like, I was going to go out in the woods, and I think very often girls are sort of told, if you're going out on an adventure, you're going to go fall in love or you're going to meet a wolf. Like, those are the two options in a sort of stereotypical story. And as a young woman, I think I was uncomfortable with that idea. And I did not want to relate to the piece of Little Red Riding Hood that was true, which is that sometimes you are going to go out and encounter this fear. And I think part of this project began to think about what other stories can we tell ourselves? you know in the most modern versions of Little Red Riding Hood which start with Brothers Grimm

and Charles Perrault I mean 1697 this kind of gets codified she becomes responsible for the violence upon her and I think that idea of sort of the female victim has brought this upon her is a dominant cultural sort of trope that is quite harmful when you embody that. And so what do you think people should do with their fears? Because you have a number of examples in your book, whether it's a man on a train that sat next to you or a group of boys on your college campus, for example. What do you think is a way to try and deal with that fear of a predatory wolf, for want of a better term.

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing when you talk about fears, it's often like, well, you better figure out how to grow out of them. But I think understanding that you have to figure out how you've grown into it, right? And who is trying to, Little Red Riding Hood is told to stay on the path as a way of keeping her in control, right? And there's always a form that these wolf stories, who is that wolf? It's not fair to the wolf, but it's also not fair very often to the men who get lumped in with that idea of predatory creature, right? And so, you know, for me, it was actually studying the sort of ecology, talking to some biologists about how fear was in wolves and in their bodies that I started thinking about my own. So this idea that like fear in a wolf isn't always the closing of a door. It's also a sense of inquiry and curiosity. If a wolf hears something under a tree, it will go investigate. And that's scary, but

that's also a bit exciting. And I started thinking about, you know, I wanted to keep going out into the forest and doing adventures and I love camping and hiking. And so I was thinking, how can I do this? The other thing was talking to a biologist who said, fear is not an emotion in my lab. It's a set of responses. Any plant, an animal, a human, you experience something scary, your body changes. And that was sort of helpful for me because I felt like I was really irrational when I was really hypervigilant.

I was grabbed on the street one night by a strange man I didn't know. And after that, I found it really hard to walk anywhere by myself. And I thought, I've got to talk myself out of this. But of course, you can't really, like, you can't fix this, the patriarchal violence against women. So you can only change. I mean, I would like to, don't get me wrong. But of course, you know, you're grappling with what is in your head, in your own control. And so understanding that my body had sort of changed in these ways and thinking about myself as an animal, really, I think one of the things studying the wolf taught me was thinking about how wolves are afraid and how they move through

the landscape. And I started, you know, um somewhat empowered thinking of myself as an animal too and were you able to get over that fear perhaps and I know you had fears in different areas of your life but but that particular one of sexual harassment really yeah I mean I think women were so we're so taught to be afraid and then we're also taught to mistrust our fear right it's the fear of crying wolf and the fear of meeting the wolf. And I think I had a real hard time trusting my kind of gut instincts because I felt like they were sort of ringing from a system that was wired with a lot of prejudice. And I do think that now I feel somewhat more comfortable sitting with it. I used to think, oh, if I grow up, I've got to

learn how to minimize the fear. And now I just understand that it's learning to walk beside it and learning which things to discard, but to really live with that uncertainty. Even when you say discard, I'm thinking of a wolf in sheep's clothing. You know, there's so much language there. When I started reading your book, Hungry Like a Wolf, Wolfing Something Down, you talk about some French expressions that use it. It came to me in Italian, imbocco al lupo. You know, that's how you'd say good luck. And then you'd say crepe al lupo, kill that wolf.

You know, if you're about to have a performance. Some people getting in touch. Let me see. I was fortunate to be in Canada and I encountered a wild black wolf female with her cub another time I remember seeing one walk through the forest while I stood near for 10 minutes I was never fearful for one moment only honored and blessed I was in the presence of such a magnificent creature that's from Vivica thanks so much for getting in touch that's beautiful yeah so you know because many of the things you talk about

do induce fear and you know there's even a question about whether to reintroduce wolves to the uk which is a whole other program uh but you are in all of these creatures the real life creatures there's one in particular oh war like oregon seven which has been tracked yes exactly i mean i think what we forget is that the thing most likely to kill a wolf is another wolf. And, you know, people are more likely to die at the hands of cows or falling vending machines or sharks or dogs. And, you know, there's this whole sort of list of things. And so the fear... Falling vending machines, we should come back to at another point as well, but continue. And that's my next book, The Real Fears of Vending Machines.

But I think, you know, understanding that between that irrationality, there's a lot of storytelling, right? And to sort of sit beside that, having the chance to actually watch real wolves or to hear about the people who really are watching them, you see that this is a creature that cares, you know, it's, they take care of their young collaboratively. A wolf pack will sometimes pass on territory that they're living on through the generations. And you think when we refer to someone as say a lone wolf shooter, what are we talking about? Because in wolf language, a lone wolf is a young wolf that's left his pack looking for family, looking for new territory. It's a really vulnerable time in a wolf's life.

And I think so many of the sort of animal metaphors we use, especially with wolves, are not tied to the scientific reality. And there's a real harm there. And so I think I went into this project feeling upset about the ways that we animalize humans and also vilify the wolf. And how do we sort of like untangle those and how do we see the wolf as the you know its own species somewhat untethered from our human projections a lot to get into I'm just thinking the number of experiences you describe but you did talk about a time when you were pressured into sex when you were a teenager and you were enjoying the feeling of being wanted but at the same time being quite scared that you can have, and that's kind of, I suppose,

predatory behaviour, that you could have two emotions at the one time also tangled up. Well, and I think, you know, not to psychologise this fictional Little Red Riding Hood, but you can imagine she's so curious in the woods, she's looking at squirrels, she's looking, all of the old storytellers talk about what she sees in nature. And then she sees this wolf and I think like there must be some excitement there wrapped up in the sort of fear and the unknown. And I think that's where some of my, you know, these early experiences where you feel a bit like a victim, but you also feel some of this sense of unknown and those moments were hard to write about.

And I think very often there's a pressure that, oh, if the worst case scenario didn't happen here, it shouldn't go in language. And I feel like, you know, there's a real power in sort of writing these more quotidian moments that many women can relate to. And to think these are the moments that sort of accumulate and shape the way we move our bodies through the world. And um what do you think we should in our last minute uh should we take away from your book wolfish about wolves or indeed about fear i think this idea that you know we are afraid of something we're afraid um when we are really in love fear and love are tied right when i felt most afraid it was when i was really in love with the world and I didn't

want to leave it. And I similarly think like the way we relate to other species has to come down to that sense of like loving this, you know, habitat under threat that we're all sharing. And I think that comes down to it. I have a lot of anxiety about what's happening with the world, but ultimately it's about coexisting together. Coexisting together. Really good to have you on, Erica. I have to say, I'm never going to look at wolves in the same way again. They're such beautiful creatures and thank you for having me. You're so welcome. Wolfish is her book. Erica Berry is who is just

speaking to me now about how it's made its way into our imagination. Let me see my surname is Wolf so I have never been afraid of wolves as a child I lived in a village and we always got mail simply addressed to the wolf cubs. Can you believe that? No postcode

or any other part of the address and we still got the post. God bless the postman. I don't know what, well, I know his or her last name is Wolf. I don't know what their first name is, but thanks so much for getting in touch. Obviously, something about the wolves

has touched you as you get in touch about them. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past,

through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women? And would it be any different today? Lady Killers. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.