Woman's Hour - The role of Queen Consort; Samantha Cameron, Ophelia Lovibond, Women's Institute

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

King Charles the Third is our new monarch. At his accession to the throne, his wife Camilla became Queen Consort, and his daughter-in-law Kate is now the Duchess of Cambridge and Cornwall. Royal Editor at the Daily Mail Rebecca English and historian and author Dr Estelle Paranque join Emma Barnett to talk about what this means for the female royals. Emma also speaks to Diana Parkes about her experience of working with the former Duchess of Cornwall on domestic abuse issues - a cause she has expressed a hope of being able to continue supporting as Queen Consort.Samantha Cameron, the chief executive of the clothing company Cefinn, and the wife of the former Prime Minister David Cameron, will be attending Her Majesty's funeral on Monday. She speaks to Emma about her memories of The Queen, including being given a medal by her for running around Balmoral. She also offers an insight into what it will be like for the former Duchess of Cornwall to be the partner of a man who is taking on a huge new role.Ophelia Lovibond is perhaps best known for playing Izzy Gould in the BBC TV mockumentary series W1A. Later this month, you can see her take on the role of Carrie Symonds alongside Kenneth Branagh as Prime Minister Boris Johnson in This England, set during the Covid crisis. But from Wednesday this week you can catch her in the leading role in new series Minx on Paramount Plus. Set in 1970s Los Angeles, Minx centres around Joyce, an earnest young feminist who dreams of producing a magazine by, for and about women but ends up joining forces with a low rent publisher to create the first erotic magazine for women. Olivia joins Emma.The Women's Institute was formed in 1915, designed to bring together women in rural communities and encourage women to become more involved in producing food during the First World War. It has evolved over the years and is now the largest voluntary organisation in the UK with more than 212,000 members in over 6,600 groups. The Queen was its longest serving member of 79 years, joining as a young Princess. She was also president of her local WI group at Sandringham in Norfolk - a position she honoured every year. Ann Jones, National Chair of the WI joins Emma.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It's good to be back with you during this unique moment in the country's history. Today, the Queen's coffin moves to London from Edinburgh before the procession from Buckingham Palace to Westminster Hall tomorrow, where the lying in state will begin ahead of the funeral on Monday. It is striking that the first three people in line to see the Queen's coffin in London and pay their respects

are women. We're also told in a new poll that almost half of Britain shed a tear over the death of Her Majesty and women were more likely to have done so. A lot of people are getting used to the fact that a constant in their lives and the lives around them, the Queen, is no more and that it is now a man, a king, that is head of state. One of the Queen's most striking speeches about women and the progress in women's lives came in 2015 at the centenary celebrations for the Women's Institute. As the group's longest serving member, Her Majesty had this to say. In the century since the first WI groups were formed in North Wales and in Sussex, so much has changed for women in our society. There has been significant economic and social change since 1915. Women have been granted the vote. British women have climbed Everest for the first time. And

the country has elected its first female Prime Minister. Well, of course, there have now been two more female prime ministers the most recent prime minister Truss being invited to form her government by her majesty only two days before the queen's death. But to this idea of no longer having a female head of state and the queen's connection to women and the charting of how women's lives have changed during her reign what is your take? Let me know here. You can text me here on the programme at 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or email us, the whole team, through the Women's Hour website. Or choose to send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, which plenty of you have been doing. Thank you for that. 03700 100 444. Do check those data charges. You may wish to turn on the Wi-Fi to send that over to us. But indeed, as I started on this programme at the beginning of last

year, Women's Hour's 75th birthday year, the Queen was kind enough to send a note talking about the evolving role of women across society, both here in the UK and around the world during the programme's seven decades on air. So your reflections, please, this morning, specifically around the point of having had a woman as head of state for all of this time, and now not to your responses to that and some of what perhaps we can take from Her Majesty's reign, very much as a woman and a working woman and talking about how women's lives were changing alongside her own. Also on today's programme, we explore the women's influence around King Charles,

not least the Queen Consort role and why Camilla's version of that role might be different from those who have gone before. And the actor Ophelia Loverbond will be here to explain why her latest character's dream of feminism doesn't go quite according to plan. You will hear all of that to come and more, and I'm looking forward to hearing from you this morning.

But first to someone who has spent, both spent some proper time with the Queen, but also has had the experience of having to play a supporting role to a male partner with one of the biggest jobs in public life while maintaining their own interests and talents. Samantha Cameron, the chief executive of the clothing company Seffin and the wife of the former Prime Minister David Cameron will be attending Her Majesty's funeral on Monday. I was interested in her take on how Camilla will make her transition to the role of Queen Consort from being the Duchess of Cornwall.

When I spoke to Samantha Cameron earlier, though, I began by asking her to share her memories of first seeing the Queen, which were a bit earlier than you may think. I spent most of my summers on an island called Jura with my parents as a child and she would often be, you know, you'd be, you'd see this sort of large boat in the distance and you'd be told that was the Queen sailing around the Western Isles and it would happen, you know, most summers and it was always very sort of exciting moments. You thought, will she come and land on our, on our beach on a picnic or something, which she never did actually, but there was always, you thought she might. She might just appear. Yeah. So, I mean, you are a daughter of a baronet,

so it was never a social context. It was just a distance. No, no, just in the distance, very much in the distance, yes. And then, and when you met her, I mean, that's quite a good opening salvo to start with. Did you say, I tried to spy you from the beach or? I think I did. I suppose you're terrified.

It is quite frightening when you first meet the queen um inevitably and um and she does sort of live up to the expectations of being you know when you first meet her i suppose quite um i mean she's just sort of quite awe-inspiring um um and and i think the moment you get to talking to her and you know we spend a lot of time with her and Philip together, I think you're just unbelievably impressed by their kind of intellect. I think that's what's quite scary about being with them. And there's a depth of knowledge that they have on a vast range of subjects.

I mean, diplomacy, foreign policy, history. And then obviously, you know, all the kind of things that they're interested in, like horses and agriculture. And so you'd always feel quite kind of inadequate in terms of keeping up with the conversation. And I think the thing also that was amazing about them both was that they were incredibly physically fit. You know, they had incredibly sharp minds for their age when I, you know, obviously I knew them by the time, you know, the Queen was in her late 80s and Philip was 90. So they were extraordinary people. And how did you go about perhaps trying to bond or have a relationship with her as women? I think you definitely got the impression from the get-go that she didn't suffer fools gladly

and was going to kind of see through anything that you might try and do to sort of impress her that was sort of false anyway I think I mean I used to try and keep to sort of subjects that we both knew about I you know I rode a lot as a child so and I rode her Highland Ponies and showed a lot of interest in her kind of breeding of our Highland Ponies and we stayed in Balmoral and we could talk about you know our love of Scotland and the Scottish Islands and um and we talked a lot about her you know her grandchildren and what they were interested in and um I think you definitely felt after sort of a couple of years of going to Balmoral that I'd sort of gained her sort of gained her trust in some way and you

saw a slightly you know a different side of her. And she gave you a medal? What was this for? Yeah, so when you go to Balmoral, they sort of say to you, what would you like to do in the mornings? You sort of have breakfast and you don't see the Queen till lunchtime. And so they say, what would you like to do? Would you like to go fishing or would you like to go for a walk or riding? And I think, you know, the first time we went riding on her Highland Ponies,

which was very beautiful. And then I think another time we went on a walk and Prince Philip had given his directions to this walk around the estate and Dave and I promptly I found out completely lost had no idea where we were and so Prince Philip skidded up in a kind of black Range Rover um and um you know did treat as like some complete incompetence for having got lost. And then I think one of the last times I was there, I run. I mean, I'm not going to marathon run or anything, but I do run regularly. And I said, oh, I'd like to go for a run around the estate. And was there some, you know, a run that I could do?

And I think it was probably about 7K. It had a particular name. I can't remember. Anyway, I came down for drinks in the evening and the lady in the waiting room said, who would like you would like to come over and talk to queen and I did and she sort of fixed me with a kind of you know glint in her kind of piercing blue eyes and I've got something for you um and I couldn't think what it could be anyway she sort of brought out this medal that she says she you know always gives

everyone if they do this particular complete this particular run and I'd gone out on the run with one of her her grooms in the morning so you could show me the way and check I didn't sort of pass out um and she gave me this medal was a huge grin on her face I mean um and it was I was a really one of my most touching moments of my life actually I was so pleased um uh and uh but it wasn't like a sort of it wasn't a sort of official medal it was very much like one of those things you'd give to children at football, you know, small children at football matches or parties. Why did that mean so much to you, though?

Why has that become a moment for you? I just thought in my whole life I would never do anything like that, actually, in the grand scheme of things. In any kind of situation, whether you would give me a medal. So although it's a rather sort of, you know, it wasn't a proper medal for doing anything, you know, brave or important. I think I was just, there was something rather kind of, kind of comic in a way about the situation the Queen was giving you a medal.

Something you'd never, ever in a million years, thought you would think would happen in your life. Well, I mean, also it does sound like, although you talk about her steeliness and having to win her over, which is interesting, it does sound like she was also a woman of great comedy. You know, we've heard she's a good mimic. We've heard she, if something goes wrong,

you know, lots of people mortified, they've done everything they can for the day to go as well as they can if they were meeting Her Majesty. And yet she would always make it a bit better if it did go wrong with a joke or not. Did you see that funnier side of her as well as they can if they were meeting Her Majesty. And yet she would always make it a bit better if it did go wrong with a joke or not. Did you see that funnier side of her as well? Yes, you definitely felt that she had a kind of real twinkle in her eye and a kind of great sense of humour.

And as I say, was a sort of keen observer of people. So although she would never, ever say anything, you know, I'm not saying it's about anyone, you definitely, there would be the odd thing she'd say where you'd get the impression she'd sort of, you know, in a very funny way, she'd sort of observe something about their kind of personality. And also, you know, I think, you know, when she smiles, she, her whole face lights up and she's incredibly pretty. Her face completely sort of changes.

And there's definitely a certain flirtatiousness about her that I think, you know, in some of the sort of renditions of her on TV, et cetera, they don't really get across, I don't think, that sort of side of her. It's very striking. And she's much more, you know, she's not as kind of serious. I mean, she is on one level, obviously, but there's a side to her that is, you know, is quite different. It's very striking. You were talking a little bit at times in present tense, which I think shows still that people are struggling to get used to the fact that she's not with us anymore.

No, I think that's definitely true. My 18-year-old daughter keeps saying the same thing. I can't believe that she's not here. And I think you're having conversations all the time where death is always very difficult in that kind of situation where you're suddenly about this morning is the change of having a woman as head of state. I mean, yes, the same way we got a female prime minister, but there is also something about not having her anymore. And I wonder how much that had meant in your life. I think we've not, I mean, you know, very few of us have known anything different. So I think it's taking some time to absorb. But I think, you know, Prince Charles, well, no, the King, King Charles, you know, he's been doing his role for 50 years now. So I do feel, I thought his, you know,

his first sort of speech to the nation was amazing, actually. I thought he did it extremely well. And I have great faith that he'll kind of carry on. We even heard from your husband about the fact that he'd also done some rehearsal audiences with prime ministers, which included David Cameron. Oh, yes, he did. Yeah, there were. I mean, I don't know if they were rehearsal ones,

but I do remember certainly if the Queen couldn't attend, then maybe there were rehearsals. But yes, David had had some audiences. Yeah, just I suppose as part of this long preparation that has been in place. We are also talking today about the idea of queen consort, of that role as we see Camilla get into that position. And I mean, she's in it now, sorry, but you know what she's going to do with it, how it's going to work. And I wonder as someone who I know it's very different as the other half of the prime minister right now, we have obviously a so-called first husband. But is it something that, especially for women in this modern day and age, can be quite something to get your head around?

Because, you know, you've been a successful creative and a successful businesswoman in your own right. And then you become, for a lot of people, the wife. I think you can kind of keep the two things quite separate. I mean, you know, I carried on with my career and I thought that was very important. I think your job, to some extent, is to be, you know, a support behind the kind of scenes. And I think, you know, in your role at Prince Charles's or as Prime Minister, you're surrounded by lots of advisors who often agree with you or they want something for you. Or, you know, you're dealing with a lot of kind of big egos um across lots of industries and and i think it's just important to create a space at home as the kind of other half you know whether you're a man or a woman that's sort of happy and calm and kind of

most of all i think quite grounded so you can keep things in perspective um you know someone who can be kind of honest and supportive maybe a little little questioning kind of outside of the bubble. And I think that often means getting on with your life outside of the bubble. And I think, you know, Camilla has her own family. She's got, I mean, you know, I've got to know her a bit over the years. And I think she loves spending time with her kind of grandchildren and her children. And I think your role is to kind of bring a bit of sort of perspective, I suppose. And she has her own charities and ceremonial duties and interests. And I think it's kind of bringing some of that wellbeing very supportive in what you're doing with them that's kind of very important.

Just finally, I mean, I mentioned the fact we have a new female prime minister. Hugh O'Leary, the prime minister's husband, will of course be there, we expect, next Monday at the funeral, as will yourself and the former leaders of this country, the living leaders, of which there are actually quite a lot now.

We've been seeing some very striking images paying tribute and being at the state occasions. And it will be quite the day on Monday, I imagine. How are you feeling about that? I think it's sort of difficult to know, isn't it? It's not something that's ever happened in my lifetime. So, yes, I think you've just got no idea how you're going to feel or what the experience is going to be like.

But, I mean, a huge privilege, obviously, to be there. Samantha Cameron talking to me just before I came on air today. Messages coming in. One here that says, I realised I took for granted that we had a female monarch. She normalised working women, adventurous women, travelling women, powerful women, articulate women and lots more, says Jenny, who says she's from Northern Ireland originally, but now living in London. And another one here, which says, I fear we may only now realise how much Her Majesty positively improved and influenced women's lives. The influence is definitely a theme. Well, let's

come to how women will continue to influence because with the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II comes a new royal era. King Charles III is the new monarch, but the women will be around him. There are a few of you also, I have to say, getting in touch to talk about Princess Anne, the Princess Royal. One particular message from Helen in Kentie says, can I just say how amazing she is? At 72 years of age, she's doing so much this week and has not left her mother since last Thursday. Her sense of duty is astonishing. She's a complete inspiration to all women, just like the late Queen, says Helen. I'll come back to her role in the moment. But chiefly, Camilla, former Duchess of Cornwall, is now the Queen Consort. And I spoke to her earlier this year in an exclusive interview

and for a special edition of this programme, not long after the Queen had made the announcement that it was her sincere wish that Camilla would be known as the Queen Consort after her death. I asked the then Duchess of Cornwall how this new title would potentially affect her charitable work, with specific reference to what we were talking about, which was her focus on violence against women. You will hear the Queen Consort mention Diana, Diana Parks, who was sitting with us as part of that conversation in Clarence House, her daughter Joanna was killed by her estranged husband. Well, of course, it's a great honour.

It couldn't be anything else. But it does help it. I'm going to keep on with these courses. You know, I am passionate about them. And if it can get a bit of attention, the right sort of attention, I will keep on doing them. If I start something like this, I'm not going to give up mid-channel. I'm just going to keep going to try and help the likes of people like Diana

who suffered so much and her family has suffered so much. And there's so many people out there like Diana who've had the same awful, terrible things happen to them. So you always see yourself giving a voice to these women and keeping going with that. I hope I should be doing it for a lifetime. The Queen Consort talking to me for a special edition of this programme about her plans and ambitions. That programme went out in February of this year. You can Consort talking to me for a special edition of this programme about her plans

and ambitions. That programme went out in February of this year. You can listen back to it on BBC Sounds should you have missed it. But also I know a lot of you were very affected by it, largely because, of course, I was also talking to Diana Parks, who was with me throughout that programme. And I'm going to speak to her again shortly. She's of course the woman whose family story inspired the now Queen Consort's work around domestic abuse. Let's talk now first to Dr Estelle Peronc who's a royal historian though and the author of the book Queen's Consort's Cultural Transfer in European Politics and Rebecca English, the royal editor for the Daily Mail. Rebecca, good morning. If I start with you, just thought it was worth listening back to that clip not long after the Queen had expressed her wishes

around Camilla becoming the Queen Consort and the determination in her voice. Hi Emma, pleasure to speak to you. Just bear with me with my voice. I'm working 18-hour days and ironing the school uniform at 2am in the morning at the moment um and yes i mean i was actually with um the then duchess of cornwall when she first went to visit safe lives this charity and it was in a tiny little place in the oval very unprepossessing and neither of us knew what to expect and we heard these women

stand up and and and tell these unimaginably painful stories. And I looked at her and she had tears pouring down her cheek and said, and afterwards she said to me, I have got to do something about this. This is going to be a lifelong piece of work for me. And yes, I think you're absolutely right that that is a pledge that she will continue, despite this incredible new position that she finds herself in. You know, she's in for the long run on this, definitely. You mentioned Safe Lives. I hadn't yet, but she's a patron of that charity now. That is where her work has come from around domestic violence.

In terms... Sorry, we seem to have some interruption on the line there. Forgive us for that. But in terms of what she will be able to do, because, of course course things will change, how will her role change with the focuses that she has built up, do you think? Well, clearly she's going to have a lot more to do

in terms of supporting her husband and affairs of state. But this is where I think Camilla will come into her own. People don't realise about her. She's very funny, warm, witty. She's very strong-willed. She's really made this job her own. You know, people don't realise about her. She's very funny, warm, witty. She's very strong-willed. She's really made this job her own in a way that I don't think people expected her to. You know, she seized initiatives that people didn't see as traditional royal fare. And that's why I know she will make time to continue this work, as well as supporting her husband. And

she's probably one of the most loyal people I think I've ever come across. You know, her husband is front and centre of her world, but she will find a way to make this work. There is no doubt about that. And will she have her own office? Do we know anything about the logistics of the role and how that will work? Well, that's in transition at the moment, Emma, because obviously her office is at Clarence House, but they will be moving a lot of stuff, obviously, post the funeral over to Buckingham Palace.

And again, this is something I don't think people realise about Camilla is, I think because of the way she came into this position, people had quite a definite opinion of what she would be like. But she's probably one of the most female friendly people I've ever come across. She's got this amazingly kind of cool gang of women around her, most of them working mothers, you know, she's very, very supportive of women in her working role. And those women will all stay with her, they've been with her, they've loyalist supported her as Duchess of Cornwall, they will just transfer what they're doing over to Buckingham Palace, but just in a slightly different way. Let me bring in Dr Estelle Perunk because Queen Consort is a term that we're getting used to. What does it actually mean? Good morning, everyone. Yeah, very interesting question indeed.

Well, Queen Consort is the wife of the king. And in history, what's very interesting is that primarily the role of the Queen Concert was to ensure that the dynasty would survive. Right. So when obviously a Tudor historian. So when you look at Henry VIII and its six wives, you know, Anne Boleyn, it's why, you know, she got executed for treason. She fell in her duty to have an heir. Here we have something very modern. We have something very different. We have a different king.

We have a different relationship. It's a love match, right? And that's why we, you know, there's so much around that couple that is so fascinating. And, you know, as Rebecca just said, like, it's true that she's so strong-willed. And I think that's why Charles is so drawn to her. It's a real partnership we have. So I'm very interested in seeing how she's going to, what type of Queen concert she's going to become,

but also how she's going to change that. How she's going to develop that from the past, because a Queen concert in the past could be extremely, you know, in the shadows, you know, in the shadows of the court, in the past could be extremely you know um in the shadows you know in the shadows of the court in the shadow of their king and i think here we have someone very different who um who obviously is here to support the king her husband but also who has a mission of herself you know she she's supporting women She wants to make a difference. And so that's interesting to see how she's going to do it, I think.

Will we move to calling her Queen Camilla as opposed to Queen Consort? Do we know? Yeah, well, I mean, in history, like, obviously, we didn't call Queen Consort Anne or, you know, Queen Catherine of Aragon. It was Queen Anne, Queen Catherine, Queen, you know. So I think, like Catherine of Aragon. It was Queen Anne, Queen Catherine, Queen, you know. So I think like, yes, ultimately, to be fair, the term queen is actually means the wife of a king. So Elizabeth II should have been called female king,

but it would have been probably way too long for us to call her that. But I've always argued that Queen Elizabeth I of England was a female king. So I will go on with that with Elizabeth. But that's fascinating just to think about, because, you know, a lot of what's going on at the moment is a country who, you know, trying to get used to new terms and new structure. What things actually mean, having never had to perhaps think or question anything about the queen and the role and the name and how it all works. Because I think, Rebecca, just to come back to you as the Royal Editor for the Daily Mail, but the papers, of course, this is why you're working 18 hours a day. It's a very busy time to try and communicate the way that this change is happening because a large part of monarchy is the opposite of change.

Was it thought or how has it been thought about do you think if people are ready for Queen Camilla because that's why Queen Consort is there because it was introduced by how the Queen put it in to her wishes it's such a good question I think the best way to demonstrate it was I was a buck in a palace on Friday when the King and the Queen arrived back for the first time so I was standing with them with the crowds and it's really noticeable you could hear Charles coming a mile off because people were literally screaming God save the king God bless you God save the king there was an equally warm welcome for Camilla but people weren't shouting God bless you Queen Camilla or Queen Consul they were shouting God bless you Camilla and I think that's not out of disrespect for I think it's

twofold I think obviously we haven't even buried Queen Elizabeth II and you know there is only one Queen still I think in a lot of people's eyes but I think it will just take a bit of time for people to get used to I think Queen Cons Consort was a mouthful and people will, including us in the media, call her Queen Camilla at some point. I just don't think people are quite ready for that yet. But I think that will happen sooner rather than later. If both of you stay with me for just a moment, because I want to come back to you about some of the other women in the family

and the influence that will happen and already is happening. But let me now say a good morning and a warm welcome back to Diana Parks, who, as we just talked about, is the woman whose family story inspired now the Queen Consort's work around domestic abuse. Good morning, Diana. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for coming back and talking to us. It was a very special conversation we had in February,

and that was a real moment when she talked and you were there about wanting to give up anything mid-channel. So I pray that she does continue. Because also we shouldn't forget, we're talking about, you know, there's lists of patronages, there's lists of causes that each of the royals take on. But her taking this on was also a moment in itself when she did because it wasn't a cause that had actually been touched by many royals. No, I think it had been swept under the carpet, as the Queen said.

Everyone knew it existed, but... Just forgive us, sorry, your line just slightly cut out there. Everyone knew it had existed. Could you just finish that point, if you don't mind, Diana, again? As the Queen Consort said, everyone knew domestic violence existed. It was a taboo subject. How have you found her in your meetings? Because, of course, you've talked publicly, like you did with us on the programme, but you've also had time to talk together.

I find her absolutely delightful. I find her very compassionate. She's very easy to be with. She is a wonderful support for the King. You can see the grief on her face at this present time. And I think the country's taken her to their hearts. She also has engaged a lot with your family story. You set up a charitable foundation in your daughter's memory, the Joanna Simpson Foundation, specifically to help children who are affected by this, because that's what happened to your grandchildren. Your daughter was in a situation where she was battered to death by her estranged husband, and the children were within earshot. And those details are very

difficult, of course, as a reality for you to deal with. But also it was the familiarity with your story and not shying away from it that was very striking with the now Queen Consort and the way that she engages with the details of women's lives when they've been affected like this. Diana, I do hope we've got you slightly frozen on our line. I do apologise for that. Diana? It obviously is a terrible story, a terrible thing that happened to our family. And the Queen Consort totally seemed to understand the gravity of it all, which was very reassuring, I think,

that people can appreciate the horror that this causes in any family. And you never get over it, but you learn to walk alongside it. And she seemed to understand that. Yes, and she also seemed to relate to you greatly, if I may say, as a grandmother, you know, you took in your grandchildren and she talked about being, you know, in awe of what you had done and doing that and being a parent all over again as well. That was very much a relatability between you. Yes, I think she said the children are very, very lucky to have you. And I said I am very, very lucky to have them because they gave me a purpose in life. I don't know how I would have survived without them.

They've been absolute. Oh, I'm so sorry. We so wanted to have you as a part of the programme. We have done that, but I'm going to just leave our line there because it's just slightly glitching and freezing. But Diana, it is always lovely to have you on the programme. We wish you well with everything, especially with the Joanna Simpson Foundation.

Diana Parks there. To come back to our other guests, Rebecca English, the Royal Editor for the Daily Mail, Dr Estelle Peronc, a Royal Historian. We're talking also about the other women in the family as well, because while we may not have a female head of state anymore, there are a lot of women around the new king and who will also be influencing. I mentioned that Princess Anne, the Princess Royal Rebecca is coming up in some of our messages today when we're talking about, I suppose, strong women and the women that we know to do with the royal family.

And her role is catching people's eye this week. It was really interesting, wasn't it? I think to hear that reader's comment. She was one of the standout stars for them over the last few days. And I know when I did a big feature for The Mail on her 70th birthday recently, I probably got more love for that than I've anything I've written in a long while and I think it's because she embodies the best qualities of a mother isn't it that um I mean people will often say there's no disrespect to the current king is that she's the kind of best queen we never had um and uh I think people feel reassured that she's there that

we may have lost Queen Elizabeth II but you know the king has the next best thing by his side in terms of support. Yeah, they're incredibly close as a brother and sister. I don't think people realise it. They think of them as quite a distant family. And the truth, particularly with the king and his sister, I mean, it's just that they couldn't be closer. And also Sophie, Countess of Wessex, she's been the focus of also some attention because of her close bond with the Queen. Absolutely.

I've done a big feature in today's Daily Mail, in fact. It was, I think people's eye were caught by the kind of, how moving it was to see her kind of hunkering down on her heels and looking at the flowers at Balmoral and grieving in public. But what I've been told, actually, she, actually, she was very close to the Queen. She called her Mama after losing her own mother very tragically to stomach cancer at just 71, I think it was. And they would go walking the dog together.

They would pour over kind of military history in the Royal Archives at Windsor. But actually, I think she's going to be very important to our new Princess of Wales, I have to say. They have grown very close as women. I know Kate really admires the way that Sophie has juggled her royal duties with being a mother as well. And people have said to me she really is very lucky as a Princess of Wales to have Sophie by her side. We will let you carry on, Rebecca English, with all that you have to do,

whether that's writing more or ironing the school uniforms. But maybe get some help with that. The Royal Editor for the Daily Mail. And let's just give the final word to Dr Estelle Perron, a royal historian, author of the book Queen's Consort. It's a situation now which has changed again, as we're talking about. But the idea of having many other women to have this influence in the royal family, is that different? Or do we see that in history? society i still believe we are in so many ways and i love the fact that i'm in this program women's hour but we cannot deny that obviously back then it was much more patriarchal and so i'm quite very

um interested in seeing how kate i mean for me kate is going to be the perfect princess of wealth like she she's literally like the next she's going to be the next queen concert the next queen and i think she'll be only called queen like queen kate and and queen camilla is going to be be called queen camilla we can't have queen concert camilla it's too long um but i think that what's very interesting is that all these powerful women who are here to support their husband but not just that because we we talk a lot about the support they give to their male relatives, but actually all the work they do for all women. I mean, for showing, I'm very interested in women as powerful leaders, and it's what they are.

You know, it's what the work they do, the care they show is really, like, inspiring to all of us, I believe. But, but, but. We don't have that in us. Yes. We don't have women that are here to support the king or here to be inspirations to women. We really don't have that.

And I think that I'm glad that now we have so many, you know, inspiring women in the royal family and that we're going to hear more about them probably because I think the King Charles III is a champion of women when you really look at his own relationships with his female relatives. So that's fascinating. Well, of course, the focus mainly has been around the Queen Consort, as you say, will become Queen Camilla in time. And that will again be perhaps another discussion. But as you talk about the precedent of there being so many women having their own roles

like this within a royal family is relatively new, and especially with your look back for us. Dr. Estelle Perron, thank you to you. And a message here saying, I believe Queen Consort Camilla will very ably fill the role for the King that Prince Philip did for the Queen. He talked, for example, of the spouse of a visiting dignitary and helping them feel at ease and making them laugh. Camilla has the intelligence, good sense and assurance for this. And most important, she laughs with the King, with those in a crowd who have gathered to see royal visits and events and with nervous people who are waiting to be presented to royalty. I'm sure she will be a great support, says Kate in South Wales.

And as we were talking, these messages coming in about no longer having a female head of state. Yes, there is a new female prime minister. Some other listeners making that point as well. But there was a message here I just wanted to share, and I think it ties a little bit to what we're next going to talk about, how much progress we've actually made. Whilst there have been undoubtedly many advances in favour of women over the past century,

there have also been what I would consider a very serious setback. When I was a child in the 50s, it was perfectly feasible for a married couple to buy a house on the salary of the husband alone, of one person. This meant the wife could, if she wanted to, stay at home and bring up children, if they had them, with no financial hardship. However, for most women these days, this is simply not an option because two salaries are now needed to buy a reasonable house. The net effect is that many women who would prefer to stay at home

and bring up the children are effectively forced out to work, which means they are actually a lot less free than they were 50 years ago. Of course, that won't apply to everybody. It won't be everybody's situation. But it's a broader point when talking about how things have changed or not changed and possibly not changed for the better. In the last 50 to 75 to 80 years, we've been talking throughout the programme, various age ranges. And in fact, we'll end the programme talking to the Women's Institute when those remarks were made by Her Majesty on the centenary of that institution. But some pointing out that not everything has been progress. Well, Ophelia Loverbond, who's just walked into the studio,

has been looking a bit about our progress or lack thereof, perhaps in her new role. You might know her for playing Izzy Gould in the BBC TV mockumentary. I had to mention it. W1A was sitting in the BBC building. Later this month, you're going to see a take on the role of Carrie Johnson. Carrie Simmons, as was alongside Kenneth Branagh as Prime Minister Boris Johnson in a new drama series, This England, set during the Covid crisis. Yes, there's already a drama, but this week you'll be

able to watch her in the leading role in a new comedy drama series, Minx on Paramount+. Set in the 70s in LA, the series centres around Joyce, an earnest young feminist who dreams of producing a magazine by, for and about women. Here she is struggling to pitch her feminist magazine.

Math is hard when back to school makes you feel like a fool. From date to mate, you too can snag a spouse. The Grapefruit Diet. Find your thin within Within What do these articles have in common? They're cute and fun With pictures of pretty gals The kind of stuff my old lady reads in the tub What they have in common Is they're the exact opposite of the stories

I'm going to have in my magazine This country treats women Like second class citizens We're overlooked, underpaid and overwhelmed. We deserve a magazine that inspires us, that shows us how to fight. Gentlemen, this is your chance to be on the right side of history. The Matriarchy Awakens. Why is she so angry?

The Matriarchy Awakens. What a title. I have to say, the character ends up joining forces with a low-rent publisher to create the first erotic magazine for women. Philae Loverbond, good morning. Good morning. It's quite a departure from The Matriarchy Awakens in the end. Well, yes, she sort of compromises in order to get the magazine out there. I think she envisaged something like Spare spare rib something that people might be familiar with but it she has to compromise on that ideal

in order to actually get people to read it and that means involving some male erotica. Is a lesson in pragmatism quite a lot of the journey that this character goes on? I think that's what she keeps telling herself she keeps feeling like she's compromised too much and she's kind of lost sight of what she originally wanted, but then ultimately realises I need to be pragmatic. And that involves agreeing to this request. It also, I mentioned this idea of a first erotic magazine for women. There is a scene where lots of men come and try out. They're naked in the shoot, man after man after man.

And, you know, her character is quite is quite naive actually about sex and about that side of life but it's also a very striking moment because you see a female gaze in action. Absolutely she's very astute at kind of feminism in theory but in practice she's quite shy she's quite a prude she's can kind of get in her own way she can be a little bit condescending without realizing it because her social skills are kind of lacking but she's thrust in front of um progress as as her kind of publisher would put it and she's forced to kind of engage with the female gaze and acknowledge that she's actually not engaged or indulged in it before herself and realizing that there is value in this it's not she kind of dismisses male nudity as silly.

My magazine's not going to be taken seriously. But you see Joyce unwinding and kind of embracing sexuality over the course of the show. And that's what you're hoping the viewer is doing at the same time. Did you unwind and relax during those particular scenes? I was already very relaxed. I had a great time. Because I also wondered why you were drawn to it. This role.

Christian asked and answered. Because she, I felt an immediate affinity with that part, that she had these ideals and struggles to kind of bring them to fruition. I also feel like there's, I'd never seen anything like this on television before i felt like there was real space for this kind of show this sort of story to be told and it's funny and it's it obviously it does have a feminist message but it's done in a way that's i mean almost palatable it kind of takes away the people often feel that the word feminism is so

loaded and so kind of weaponised. And it's a way of just pointing out that it's really quite a lot more simple than some people might have you believe. Do you feel it's still loaded? I do. Some people even say, I'm not a feminist, but I do think women should get equal pay. And you think, um, that is kind of what feminism is. But it's for some reason still carries so much.

It has this power. I don't, it's frustrating to see that it does. But I hope the show shows you that it's really a lot more straightforward. Yes. Well, I mean, also some of the issues that she's talking about, which she'd love to call the matriarchy.

I mean, some of our listeners may prefer that rather than minx, which is what it ends up being. But I think the idea of some of those issues, last week we were talking about the fact that the new prime minister, prime minister Truss, the last person to hold the women in equalities position, which was a secretary of state position around the cabinet table, certainly always in addition to other roles,

did we still need a minister for women? And there is not going to be one with the name as it is of the same level. It's just going to be rolled into equalities and a man is looking after that portfolio. But the reason I say all of that is there are a lot of the same issues that are raised in this television programme that we obviously cover here on Woman's Hour, but people still felt because they are not in place or those issues are not sorted yet, that you still need, whether it's magazines, whether you need specific programmes, whether you need a specific minister, that you still need whether it's magazines whether you need specific programs whether you need a specific minister that you still need that so when you were making it did you did you become aware of what hasn't been achieved yes uh certainly in light of roe v wade being revoked in the us it's it's alarming to think that we're the show is set in the 70s and generally speaking women in that period have more rights than women do now in some regards.

That's quite a frightening prospect. And the fact that we're still having the same argument, the fact that we're still trying to get across the idea of fair and equal access and equal pay and so many issues that come up all of the time and you kind of, sometimes you almost despair because you think, why are we still having this conversation? Why? I mean, there are women who got out the same placards from 1973

and they've kind of dusted them off and are reusing them. That really ought not to be happening. Why did you want to play Carrie Johnson? Because I think she is fascinating. I think the way that she's been depicted in the media is in itself really interesting. The kind of the disparaging names for her. I've, even before I was involved in this project,

I remember just thinking, they're so, they're quite aggressive, some of the nicknames that she's been given and i just just to clarify no they're not nicknames by the media they were no attributed to those who who had been allegedly working around yes yeah but then obviously were then leaked to the press or whoever but i just thought what whoever it was that what it's she has such a strong effect on people whether or not you agree with that or not it's she clearly has this effect and people are so fascinated to know like what she's really like and does she really does she effect on people whether or not you agree with that or not it's she clearly has this effect and people are so fascinated to know like what she's really like and it does she really does she really

behave in this certain way so when the opportunity came to play her I thought what I'd love to do as much that now I kind of have reason to do the research on her that I've been quite curious about anyway what have you discovered did you manage to talk to her? No, I didn't. It felt like, I was curious to, but it felt like that might influence my depiction of her in some way, which would have felt irresponsible. So I thought it would be wiser as an actor to go with the dialogue as it was put in front of me, to use the scenes as they were written.

Obviously to do as much research as possible in kind of her background, her career path, all the rest of it to inform my performance, but to not have my interpretation of her swayed by either something someone might say that was really negative or by Carrie herself that might swing it more positively. I mean, not by design here,

but we obviously had a former spouse of a prime minister on right at the start of the programme with Samantha Cameron. But there was someone would say some of the depictions of her, you know, sexism has been used wrongly because she was a political operator. She worked in politics beforehand. So it'd be interesting to see the depiction. It's been delayed by a week because of the death of the Queen. Yeah. OK, because someone would also say, is it quite soon? You know, Covid and the impact on people's lives and politics as a drama. What do you make of that? enormous experience that we've all had and shared that it's been so hard to fathom and drama is a

form of being able to sort of digest that and and and understand how you feel I also think personally that we are so adaptable that you tend to sort of gloss over lots of things that occurred what's the reason this being recorded and written so soon and as things were still unfurling you're able to kind of record with greater accuracy what happened so even when I was watching some of the episodes back I just thought gosh I'd forgotten about that I'd actually forgotten that it was with that such rapidity that this all occurred so I think I'm hopeful that people will find it cathartic rather than alarming. I mean, I also was just remembering the last time you and I spoke and when you came on the programme,

it was the year anniversary of the death of your very good friend, Caroline Flack, still in the minds of many. And also there was Flackstock, the festival, I believe, that took place earlier this summer that you were involved in. And a lot of you still working to try and remember her as a woman, you know, a lot of people related to. Well, it's like I said last time when we spoke that it's very easy because of the way Caroline passed away

to let that overshadow her entire life. But her life counted for so much more than the way she died. And I want people to remember her in that spirit. And that's very much what Flagstock was about, celebrating her life with dance and music and singing and friendship. And to obviously raise money and awareness for mental health charities to try and prevent something like this happening again. Do you think she'd like minks?

I think she would love it. I think the rewind and pause button would be used a lot. What about erotic magazines for women and the female gaze? I think she would. I think the rewind and pause button would be used a lot. What about erotic magazines for women? I think she'd love it. I think she'd absolutely. She was such, this is another thing about Caroline, she was such a champion for women and she was so supportive of, you know, what I was, you know, my ambitions and everything. I think that she would have been the first person on the plane out there to come to the screening with me. Well, it's available from tomorrow and Paramount Plus is where you can get it and it's called Minx.

Ophelia Lovabon, thank you very much for talking to us. Many roles that we had to consider you in there and it's good to go through some of them. Now to the WI, the Women's Institute, which I mentioned at the beginning of the programme in relation to the Queen. It was formed in 1915, designed to bring together women in rural communities and encourage women to become more involved actually in producing food

during the First World War. It's of course changed and evolved over the years. It's now the largest voluntary organisation in the UK and the Queen was its longest serving member of 79 years, joining as a young princess. She was the president of her local WI group at Sandringham in Norfolk, a position she honoured every year. And another sign that being a woman, being part of a women's group,

was a key part of her identity. Joining me now, Anne Jones, National Chair of the Women's Institute. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. The longest serving member is quite an accolade in a life filled with them, of course. Oh, absolutely. And we're very, very proud of her and what she brought to the WI. You know, just that feeling that she wanted to be part of an organisation where she felt that she was one of us. The influence that she could give to society was in line with what we felt within the WA.

And the way that she's managed to have her reign going from the 21st to the 22nd century and to be able to adapt as she did to the needs of each period has been magnificent. And I think she's brought the WI with her along in those changes because we've also adapted to be that organisation for women today. Again, if I may, I'm so struck by you a little bit there, again, slipping into present tense when talking about the Queen, which Samantha Cameron did as well, because I think it's a sign of how difficult it is to make this change.

It's really difficult to grasp that she has gone, that we have lost our Queen. But, you know, we look back with such affection and pride and respect on what she achieved, that it is that difficult to make that transition but we will. I played the the clip or part of the clip of when she spoke at the Women's Institute centenary celebrations in 2015 and it was a memorable speech because of how she spoke about women and and the change. It did show her pride in what women had achieved during her reign and how women's lives had changed in that period for the good

in many respects. I heard your earlier speakers talk about the issue of not having equality still and it is something that the Queen and the WI have worked together since the 1940s to campaign for equal pay for women, etc. So, yeah, that speech was a powerful speech showing that society and the WI have changed and she has changed with us. And she cuts a cake, didn't she, at that event? That was a bit of a moment.

I remember there was quite a lot of laughter while she was doing it. It just showed her human side, didn't she at that event? That was a bit of a moment. I remember there was quite a lot of laughter while she was doing it. It just showed her human side, didn't it? In that there was a bit of a kerfuffle about cutting through the icing. I think it was, she was playing, I think, because the icing wasn't that hard. But it was that lovely family moment between the Princess Royal

and the Countess of Wessex and Her Majesty in being able to have fun together. It was a rare opportunity to see them as normal women. Yes. She didn't want any help, though. Oh, absolutely not. She just got through that cake. Oh, yes. Yes. Did she ever bake anything in a meeting? Do we know? Not that I'm aware of.

And you wouldn't expect her to bake anything in a meeting, would you? I don't know. When you're a member of the Women's Institute, all sorts of things can happen. It's good to hear about this. But, you know, I think that's the idea, though, that she wanted to keep that connection with it. What was it about it? Do you think it was because she'd done it since she was young and she honoured her commitments? Or do you think there was something about it being

a women's group? I think it was the ethos of the WI that she'd really liked, particularly the way that we were influencing women and society and our contribution to the community. I think she felt that she wanted to be part of an organisation where the community was at the heart of our spirit. And it was for many women a time to be themselves. And I think for Her Majesty, it was also a time where she was able to go along to that meeting. Yes, of course, she could never really take the crown off. But she felt more at home within the WI in Sandringham than in many other official events that she attended because she chose to be there. Yes, that's the point, isn't it? It was a choice to do so.

The Queen's coffin makes its way to London today, as I've also mentioned, from Edinburgh before the lying in state begins tomorrow. The first three people in the queue in London to see her coffin and pay their respects were women. And we're hearing from women today, some men also getting in touch with lots of male listeners, but women talking about perhaps they hadn't quite thought about what her example, or simply by being a woman as head of state, had meant. I think you're right.

I don't think we appreciated how much of an influence she had worldwide as an example of a very good leader an exceptional woman a true inspiration to many of us and a guide on how we as women can be strong leaders while being compassionate and understanding and having all the wonderful traits of a woman, but still being a strong and effective leader. You mentioned Princess Anne being at the centenary as well and having a bit of a laugh about what was going on with the cake and the icing.

And there's a couple of messages again about her saying she's always been a star, not just at this moment, an incredibly hardworking woman who goes about her business in a quiet, unassuming way, hiding her saying she's always been a star, not just at this moment, an incredibly hardworking woman who goes about her business in a quiet, unassuming way, hiding her star's light along the way. And there's that unassuming side as well, I suppose, that kind of it's embedded a bit in the Women's Institute itself with its roots and how it began.

You're quite right, yes. We're not an organisation that shouts out loudly about what we've achieved in the over 100 years since we started in North Wales. But we have achieved an awful lot quietly and assumingly. And often I'm told when I meet politicians and policymakers that they listen to the voice of the Women's Institute because it is the quiet voice of reason. But also, if we're concerned about an issue, that means that the general population also have an outstanding concern about it. And I think that's because our resolutions come from the members,

not from us as leaders or staff. Well, maybe you'll see a boost in the numbers. Has that happened yet perhaps because of the discussion of your longest serving member and her duties? Well we have seen an increase in our membership with over 19,000 members joining since April and I think that's a combination of the effect of Covid, the celebrations of Jubilee where we were on a higher profile and I suppose this will put us on a higher profile again. But we wouldn't want to make light of the fact that we are acknowledging the service of Her Majesty the Queen

and the outstanding service she gave to all of us, not just the WI. Anne Jones, National Chair of the Women's Institute. Thank you for taking us a bit through your history, but also the Queen's connection to the organisation and an annual commitment that she honoured. I'll be part of the BBC team covering the procession tomorrow as the Queen's coffin moves to Westminster Hall. But you'll be in very safe hands here. So join us for Women's Hour at 10 as normal tomorrow. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Do you want to exist in the real world? Audio drama. It's not just TV drama without the pictures. Look, I'm in trouble. Where are you? Look, this is a free desktop. They're going to come for me. Who?

It's more like a novel, but with the added texture and energy of sound. In human eyes, a black vortex at the centre of them, swallowing everything it sees, pulling me towards the precipice. BBC Radio 4 presents Limelight, the podcast for thrilling original audio drama box sets. Jolene, we need to leave now. With incredible news stories told by a stellar cast of actors.

I love you too. Subscribe to Limelight on BBC Sounds. So who shot him? I don't know. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.