Woman's Hour - The Staves live, Nicole Hockley, Manisha Tailor, Women and body art

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

This week, in a defamation trial in the US, Alex Jones, founder of the Infowars website, was ordered to pay nearly one billion dollars in damage to eight families and an FBI agent. He had falsely claimed a mass shooting of twenty young children between ages of 6 and 7 and six adults at the Sandy Hook elementary school in Connecticut in 2012 was a hoax. Because of his lies grieving families were harassed and threatened by his followers. Nicole Hockley’s six year old son Dylan was killed in the shooting and was part of the defamation case and awarded millions in damages. Nicole joins Anita to discuss her response, and her ongoing work as the co-founder of the Sandy Hook Promise, which works to protect children from gun violence. Manisha Tailor MBE is the assistant head of coaching for the under 9's to 16's at QPR Football Club. She is the only person of South Asian heritage to be working as a coach in English professional football. She discusses her new book ‘Dream Like Me: South Asian Football Trailblazers’.National Album Day returns for its 5th year tomorrow and this year turns the spotlight on debut albums. Previous themes include women in music and the 1980s. With activity across BBC Sounds, Anita hears from indie folk trio The Staves. The three sisters from Hertfordshire released their debut album ‘Dead, Born and Grown’ exactly ten years ago and have just re-issued a special edition on recycled vinyl. Jessica, Emily and Camilla perform live in the Woman's Hour studio..Would you wear a necklace made from your own bacteria? Or a pair of earrings formed from human tears? Anita Rani talks to two women who are using bodily materials – often their own – to make art. Chloe Fitzpatrick grows human bacteria to create the dyes used in her jewellery pieces and has amassed millions of views on TikTok for her videos documenting the process. Alice Potts’ innovative work with crystals has allowed her to create beautiful crystal structures out of tears, urine, and sweat.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Nicole Hockley Interviewed Guest: Manisha Tailor Interviewed Guest: Camilla Staveley-Taylor Interviewed Guest: Emily Staveley-Taylor Interviewed Guest: Jessica Staveley-Taylor Photographer: Sequoia Ziff Interviewed Guest: Chloe Fitzpatrick Interviewed Guest: Alice Potts

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. We have a real treat for you this Friday. Live music from indie folk trio The Staves. All three sisters will be here to tell me about re-releasing their debut album ten years after it first came out and I was listening to them sound check and it's going to be wonderful can't wait for that and tomorrow it's National Album Day and yes we are celebrating a day early on Woman's Hour the theme is debut

albums so today right now in fact I'd like you all to think about your favourite album debut or otherwise by a female artist and share with me a lovely memory attached to the album or a song from it, like the first heart-stopping time you heard Kate Bush or dancing in front of the TV, top of the fops, in fact, when you saw Madonna or Bananarama. Maybe it was Amy Winehouse who got you through a terrible breakup. Whose cassette did you listen to over and over until you wore it out?

And which album can you name the track listing to and sing every single lyric for? Let's share our love of music on the programme this morning. Or if you just want to celebrate the brilliance of your favourite female artist and a classic debut album, anyone, tell me. Carly Simon, Björk, Whitney, Aretha, Missy Elliott, Tracy Chapman, Enya, Susan Boyle, whoever it is, get in touch in the usual way.

You can text the programme, it's 84844. You can contact us via social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can send me a WhatsApp, it's 03700100444. I don't know why I say that with such surprise every single week. It's technology that we've had for quite a long time. But you know what? You can even send me a voice note if you fancy singing a bit of Kate Bush. I can't promise we'll put it on air though. And also we're talking jewellery today, but not as we know it. I'll be joined by two artists who are putting their blood, sweat and tears literally into creating beautiful jewellery. So if you're into crystals, you won't want to miss this. And here's a question for you. Name a South Asian

in the world of football. Difficult, isn't it? Well, I'll be joined by a football coach who is doing her bit to change this. That text number, once again, if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the programme today, 84844. But first, this week in a defamation trial in the United States, Alex Jones was ordered to pay nearly $1 billion in damages to eight families and an FBI agent. He'd falsely claimed a mass shooting of 20 young children between the ages of six and seven and six adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut in 2012 was a hoax. Alex Jones, who founded the InfoWars website and talk show, argued for years that the parents of those who were killed were crisis actors and that it

was a staged government plot to take guns from Americans. Because of his lies, grieving families were harassed and threatened by his followers. Christopher Matai, a lawyer representing the families, spoke outside the courthouse on Wednesday. For over a month in this courthouse, this jury bore witness to Alex Jones' 10-year attack on the family standing behind him. An attack that made him very rich. An attack that exploited the fears and resentments of his audience. An attack that targeted these families. While Nicole Hockley's six-year-old son Dylan was killed in the shooting,

she was part of the defamation case and awarded millions in damages. She's also co-founder of the Sandy Hook Promise, which works to protect children from gun violence. And Nicole joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time, Nicole, this morning. First of all, I'd like to get your reaction to the verdict. It was a, I mean, this is a historic verdict. And the jury, by sending that verdict, they were making and sending a very big message to the likes of Alex Jones and his followers that spreading lies for profit will not be accepted. So it was completely overwhelming when the numbers started to be read out because it was significantly larger than I think any of us were expecting. And I think that the symbolism of this

verdict is huge and I'm still processing it. I'm sure you are. Like you say, huge amount of money, extraordinary amounts. You and your ex-husband between you were awarded $155 million. What does this mean to you in terms of justice? I mean, justice is a big question. But overall, when it comes to what Alex Jones has been doing to us and his followers have been doing to us for the last 10 years, and the fact that this is still going on today and will continue going on tomorrow, there is a sense of justice because the jury really

heard what we were saying and took that to heart. The harm that's been done, the distress that's been done over the last 10 years to my family, to all the other families, and the fact that he's now being held to account for it, that definitely does feel like justice is prevailing here rather than continuing this nightmare and allowing it to continue to happen. What was the impact of his lies over the 10 years on you and the other families? You know, it's funny, a lot of people through the trial have said that they just didn't realise how bad it was, because I think, I know I kept so much hidden from my friends and family, but it really

changed everything about you in terms of being hyper-vigilant of everything around you, because there would be, you know, there would be comments on social media, and that's one thing, and every single video we would put up of our son would have, you know, hundreds of horrible, vile comments about him, about myself, about Ian, my ex-husband. And it was very overwhelming. So we just stopped putting up videos of our son. But then also, I started to get a lot of mail to our house. And I often got the mail before Ian got home. So I would collect it all and receive and read through the death threats. People telling me I needed to slit my wrists before they came and did it for me. Sending me pictures of dead children because they said as a crisis actress, I had no idea what a dead child looked like because my son

was never even alive, never mind, never even dying. And it was very, you just never knew who was around you and who wasn't. And, you know, there was one person who harassed me and harassed others who did go to jail that I know of. And there's probably more out there. And I know that the volume of people that did this is much larger than I will ever know. But it became very scary about you never know which person around you could take their words and turn them into actions. So it's been very scary these last 10 years. And you were grieving for your child at the time when all of this was happening and having to deal with these horrendous attacks on you.

So how much did his lies compound your grief? They truly did, because it's hard to, I mean, I was already grieving in public and I'm still grieving. You know, every day I grieve, Dylan. But the fact that you then don't know, OK, if you grieve, then someone's going to be attacking you. If you don't cry enough, someone's going to be saying you're an actress because you don't cry. If you cry too much, they're saying, oh, she did a good job today in her acting. She's really earning her government payout. It's impossible to just be a mom whose son was taken from me far too early because I'm constantly afraid of what are people looking at me for? And is there someone dangerous out there who's thinking that I'm a traitor, that I'm creating treason against the country, that it's impossible to

just be. He took that away from me and he took that ability away for me to truly just be a mom who misses her son. And feel safe, you and the other families. Safety is huge and constantly having to worry about my surviving son and how is he going to react when hoaxers come for him. Yeah, that's Jake, your other son, who was also in school that day. He was at the school, yep. How have you been able to shield him from all of this? Well, he's 18 now. He was eight when this happened. So for a number of years, I was able to shield him. And I realized, I believe it was in 2017 that I realized I had not done as good a job at shielding him as I thought. By then, you know, he was on his phone. He was looking at social media.

He was reading things. And I I overheard him talking to a friend and he mentioned Alex Jones's name. And he said, you know, there's this horrible person out there saying these things. And I have never had that conversation with Jake. Jones's name. And he said, you know, there's this horrible person out there saying these things. And I have never had that conversation with Jake. And as a mom, I felt that I had somehow failed because he should hear about these things from his parents, not from scrolling news sites. And we have had conversations since then. And he's, I've been very, very transparent and very honest with him because he needs to understand the world around him so that he's best prepared for it. And I've been trying to help him make a good decision so that when he's at college now or in his life, if someone comes up to him, that he knows how to deal with a bully or knows how to walk away and not engage directly if it's unsafe to do so. And Dylan was just six when he died. Can you tell us about him? What kind of boy was he?

Dylan was, he was really the centre of our universe and our family because he was the youngest, but he was also autistic. So we had to learn a lot about that spectrum disorder and understand how he was receiving the world and what sounds and smells and textures meant to him so that we could better understand and prepare him for things. But he was just, he was always laughing and smiling. And I was very fortunate that he was a deep cuddler. So he always wanted to cuddle and hold on to me. He would kind of just, even at six, sometimes he would just kind

of sit on my hip and hold me close. He had a very sing-songy type of voice, and people just loved to hear him laugh. I mean, he could be difficult sometimes, but what six-year-old boy isn't difficult? And I miss him all the time. I miss some of the funny things he would do. He used to look at the moon every night because he just loved to look at it. And he loved storms. It's storming here today in Newtown, Connecticut. And he used to love looking at the lightning, even though the thunder scared him. So he was just a very special little boy.

And important to hear that. Important to talk about him. It is because he is still alive in my heart and soul. And my job is to keep his legacy alive so that people don't forget him. And you really are, Nicole, doing such great work. You've set up since the shooting Sandy Hook Promise, which is working to protect children from gun violence. I want to know, though, at what point you were able to make the decision that you were going to do something proactive? Like when, where in the grieving process, when, how did you react as a community? And at what point did you decide that this is what you were going to do?

Yeah, I was fortunate that while I was still in my bed that night, there were community members gathering on December 14th, 2012, saying we need to do something. And there was one man in particular, Lee, who said, no, we're not rhetorically saying we need to do something. We really do need to do something. And they started convening and meeting and thinking about what that would be. I didn't hear about that group of community members till shortly after Christmas and started meeting with them. They'd reached out to all the impacted families. And I was very interested because my DNA is I have to do something. It's just who I am. I'm very driven. And when, I mean, we spoke about change at Dylan's memorial service, which was one week after the shooting. And I said, I had no idea what this change was going to be, but something

good was going to come from this. You can't have this event happen. 26 beautiful people die, my son, and nothing change as a result. So when I met with the community members and they said, you know, we're creating a platform for you to advocate for the changes that you want to see. I said, absolutely. That is something I want to be part of. And then I helped formally launch Sandy Hook Promise just one month after the shooting. And this has been my journey for the last 10 years and will be my mission for the rest of my life to keep other families and other children safe. How important was that community? Community is everything. And I didn't really have a lot of deep roots in the community by the time the tragedy happened. I had been living in England for 18 years. My husband's British. And the kids were both born there, Dylan and Jake. And we had only moved to Newtown, Connecticut in 2011. So we hadn't even been there two years by the time this tragedy happened. But relying on some core friends in that community to help provide this platform, that was critical because

I don't know that I could have done this by myself. I mean, you really do need to get help from others to get started, especially when your world is completely falling apart and the ground doesn't even feel solid underneath your feet. You do need to rely on community. I read somewhere that you said you barely remember the first year. I definitely have a very Swiss cheese memory of that first year. I have moments of, you know, extreme clarity from 12, 14, from the year after. And then I have moments that sometimes a photograph will come up even now on a news

stream or something. And I'll be like, oh my gosh, I'd forgotten all about that. And there are still some things that I think I, you know, I still get confused confused was that 2013, 14, 15 and it's different from I mean we all forget things but it's very different in terms of there are periods of time that I can't really recall exactly what was going on Sure, now you say you want, you know, one month after you knew that you wanted change so as we said you set up the Sandy Hook Promise and you're working to ensure a future where children are free from shootings and acts of violence in schools and in homes and their communities. But we still regularly hear about school shootings.

So what progress is being made, Nicole? Yeah, and sadly, death by firearm is now the number one cause of death for children under the age of 19 in America. It's more guns than people here and not as many regulations as there need to be. There has been, but there has been progress. And I focus on those bright spots. I know for a fact that the programs that we do with Sandy Hook Promise and the education that we provide to kids has already stopped at a minimum 11 school shooting plots. So I know that there's 11 communities that you're not hearing about in the news because we're able to get ahead of it and stop it. And this is all about upstream violence prevention, which is what we do. But this issue does continue. But I think the pendulum swings and I think we're starting to swing in a different direction because I truly do believe in the kids. And when I think about Jake, I think about his peers and I think about this, these last 10 years, there is a generation of youth here who really all they've known in their school years is how to prepare for an active

shooter how to practice for when it happens and you hear in the news afterwards they all after a shooting many of them will be saying I was wondering when our school would be next that's heartbreaking for anyone to hear but when I think about what that's done to that generation they are poised for change because they are not going to let this continue. It's really hard to hear that. And for our British audience, so, so difficult to understand because the right to bear arms, it just doesn't exist here, but so fundamental to America. Do you think that will ever change? Probably not in my lifetime. But I would hope is

that, you know, like any amendment in the Constitution, there has to be a practical application of it. And I think we have some very extreme views of what the Second Amendment is right now. And there have already been, you know, restrictions within that amendment. You can't have a machine gun, for example. So I think having responsible and appropriate access to guns, practicing many suicides, not only, and school shootings, because the guns all come from the homes. But this is a cultural problem that we have in America, and we're incredibly divided as a country right now. And my last question, Nicole, because this must be such a difficult time for you. How are you? How are you doing? Depends on the day and the minute within the day. Today, I am okay. Thank you. And broadly speaking, 10 years on, I, you know, I have my path. I know what I'm doing and I know how to do it. Jake's in a good place. I'm okay, but I would, if I could go back to 1214 and not send my son to school that day,

I would do so in an instant. Sure. Nicole, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us. Thank you. Nicole Hockley, 84844 is the number to text. You can also contact us by sending an email by going to our website. On to our next item. Manisha Taylor, MBE, is the Assistant Head of Coaching at QPR Football Club, the only person of South Asian heritage to be working as a coach in the English professional football.

And she's got a new book out called Dream Like Me, South Asian Football Trailblazers. And she joins me now to tell me all about it. Good morning, Manisha. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Why did you want to write the book? Because when I was a primary school teacher in the early 2000s, one of the things that I always questioned was how diverse educational texts were. So, you know, like storybooks. And I was

fortunate enough to work in multicultural schools. So I worked in Ealing and I worked in, spent a significant time in Brent before moving into Hillingdon. And I thought, OK, well, the demographic of the makeup of the children that I and the other teachers worked with was, you know, we had children from all walks of life, lots of different communities. But when we looked at our libraries and our classrooms, but also the school library, how many children would see children like them? And if I'm honest, at that time, it was just, you know, it was something that I kept questioning. And it was only when I transitioned into football that, you know, it actually dawned on me that actually, this isn't an educational issue. Actually, this is a society issue with regards to representation.

And during lockdown, I thought, okay, well, I was put on furlough with my full time job. I've got I've got this idea. Let me bring this idea to life. And and so the book is Profiles 42 Pioneering Individuals, South Asian Heritage, working in all parts of the game from physios to coaches, male and female players, referees, sports scientists, medical staff. And we'll get on to talk about some of the people in the book, particularly some of the women in the boardroom. We'll talk about a couple of them. But let's find out how you went from a career as a teacher to being a football coach. So I found, you know, I've always had a passion and love for football ever since I was a

child. But growing up in the early 80s, there were very few opportunities for girls and women to play. And certainly the pathway that we see now, which is brilliant for women and girls, didn't exist then. So although I played with my twin brother and it was very much grassroots and school football, I knew early on that I'm probably not going to be a professional player and that maybe that wasn't in my lifetime. Did you want to be though? Yeah, I did. Playing is all we ever wanted to do when we were at school.

We'd play in the garden. I got on trial to Barnet Girl Centre of Excellence because my best friend Jenna also played there and my mum was more than happy for me to go on trial as a nine year old, providing that Jenna's mom took me. So I went along and I remember at that time it was in this school hall and we did a range of drills and I had a brilliant time. And at the end of the trial, the coach said to me, Manisha, you know, you're in. And as much as I was really excited, I thought, OK, well, I've got to go home and tell my mum now that I've actually been accepted. And for my mum, although she was really proud and appreciative of the fact that,

oh, this is, you know, it's, this is amazing. What was really difficult for her to make the decision for me to actually play in her eyes, which was perceived to be a proper club was the fact that she didn't see many South Asian girls playing football. And while she was happy for me to play at school, going to a club for her just meant that that was something now a little bit different. And she didn't feel that she had the confidence and the courage to almost be a trailblazer at that time. Well, you are a trailblazer now and you've written this book. So let's talk about a couple of standout women for you from the book, because the ones that really stood out for me are the

ones that are in boardroom level. Yeah, there's a range of women who, for me, for different unique reasons, stand out. So before I actually get to the boardroom, there's one in particular, based on her journey, Lucinda Lawson. She has Sri Lankan heritage. She was profoundly deaf as a child, and she grew up in foster care and had a really, really troubled childhood. And when she was retelling her story, I thought, wow, how am I going to be able to put this together to actually do her story justice? Purely because I was also limited with each story on the number of words. And for me, what I really wanted to showcase with her story was one around disability and the fact that we understand and appreciate that, especially within the South Asian community, disability is still something that is seen as taboo and there's still stigma around aspirations and career aspirations for people with disability.

And, you know, one of the things that she said to me that I always still remember is that you can be anything you want to be in life. And just because I, you know, had this disability and, you know, and the way in which she retold her story to me was we communicated via email. And, you know, I remember with some of the bits that we couldn't quite include in the actual story

were around the fact that she needed a lot of resilience, perseverance, she was in and out of foster care, you know, through the duration. And she found a love for football. And that's what she connected with. And it didn't matter that she was deaf, but she found a home within the game. Whereas you've then got a different unique story with some of these women, like you've described, who sit in the boardroom. So, Rubinda Baines. Yes, Rubinda is the one who comes to mind because she talks about the fact that, fine, she's in the boardroom, but she has to actually prove herself in the boardroom, not only as a woman, but as a South Asian woman surrounded by white men. Absolutely. So you've got, so Rubinda Baines, Robina Shah and Sukhi Tonks all sit on board.

Yashmin Haroon more recently got appointed onto the FA Council. Each of them in their stories, what they speak about is having to, like you said, be bold, be resilient and have to prove and justify that actually they have a space within that room. And, you know, and are more than qualified to be able to assert themselves within that position. And the key themes around their stories has been about, you know, around resilience. But more so actually showing other girls, other women, that there is a space for you. But unfortunately, at the moment, I still feel that we're in a place where we're continuing, you know, we're having to prove, we're having to say, actually, is this as open as we as we would like it to be? And these stories, you know, these characters, these women

are saying that actually, no, it's not. However, if our stories can inspire a generation, then we're going to be in a much better place. And also, you know, that phrase that we all know, if you see it, you can be it. And this week, I'm sure you know this, Manisha, Leah Williamson, captain of the Lionesses, England women's football team, that has seen such an amazing success this year, has been talking about the lack of ethnic diversity in the squad.

And she says that the players have asked those questions of what the higher powers are doing to address the lack of representation and make women's football more inclusive. What needs to happen? So when I saw, you know, Leah share her feelings, I thought what was brilliant about what she said was the fact that they acknowledge that actually we want the game to be inclusive. We don't want anyone to feel that the game isn't for us.

And it's that there's got to be something wrong in the system. And when it comes to, you know, what you've asked around, well, what needs to be done? One of the things that I keep, you know, speaking about is the fact that we really need to look at how governing bodies within the fraternity of football, women's football, need to really look at why the demographic isn't as representative of our England. You know, our England, which is multicultural. And why is that? What do you think? And one of the reasons for that, I think, is the fact that there is lack of accessibility for people who come from diverse communities. So if we look at where some of these talent centres and these clubs are situated,

they're not necessarily as accessible as the boys' academies. And they're situated in areas that are in the suburbs where actually those who are from diverse communities can't actually get to. So when we think about a talent pool, we actually are losing a talent pool purely based on the fact that these young people cannot make it to training on time. It's not because we haven't got talent. It's not because these girls are not good enough. It's that the commute would be too far

and they would never make it to the training or the games. So we need to make it more accessible. It's just one idea. I feel like you know exactly what needs to be done at every single level of the game. My final question to you, though, Manisha, I absolutely love this film. So I can only begin to imagine how you felt when Bend It Like Beckham came out. So I remember when Bend It Like Beckham came out, I was 24. And at that time, I stopped playing football purely because like i said that

you know even grassroots and sunday league football the teams um were not as accessible for us like they are now and what i remember doing is going on the going on google and searching grassroots women's football teams and what that film really did was one open and encouraged conversations particularly with my mum and it was at that point my mum said wow I wish this film existed in the early 80s when you was an eight year old because had it done perhaps her view and perception of me maybe becoming a footballer might have been different. But you're still pursuing your passion for football and really doing a great job being a spokesperson. Manisha thank you so much for joining me on Woman's Hour this morning.

Thank you very much. So it is National Album Day tomorrow and the theme this year is debut albums, but we just thought we'd use it as a little launch pad to talk about wonderful music by amazing women. So many of you are getting in touch. Jo says, Carol King's Tapestry was the soundtrack to my growing up. Yes, yes, yes. We're all nodding in studio.

I'm 60 now, but can still remember sitting on the floor with my ear to one of my dad's big wooden speakers. I know every note of this album and can sing it to you from beginning to end. Lovely. Christopher says, 29 years ago, I was at university in the States and PJ Harvey's debut album, Good Drive, landed. It knocked me for six. I still seek out Polly Jean Harvey's music today and my children look at me rather askance when I put on Sheila Nagig loud as I'm making dinner. And another Joni Mitchell.

Lots of love for Joni Mitchell. My favourite album and most played has to be Rumours by Fleetwood Mac. Happy memories of babysitting as a teenager and snogging my first Boyfriend on the Sofa. They're the kind of memories we want this morning. 84844, you can hear them laughing. It is National Album Day and it returns for the fifth year tomorrow and this year turns the spotlight on debut albums.

Previous themes included women in music in the 1980s. This is all happening across BBC Sounds. In the studio, I am joined, I'm delighted to say, by The Staves, three sisters from Hertfordshire. They've released, re-released their debut album, Dead, Born and Grown, exactly 10 years after it first came out. It's a special edition on recycled vinyl. And I'm delighted to say Jessica, Emily and Camilla are in the studio. Before we chat to you, shall we have a burst of something? Let's hear Good Woman from your latest album, which is also called Good Woman. I mean, if there was ever a Woman's Hour anthem.

Welcome. Why re-release after 10 years? Please welcome to Emily. Hi. Hello. Well, lots of people seem to be doing, you know, celebratory tours and things to mark special anniversaries of albums of theirs. I know Turing Breaks did that 20 years, or maybe it was 25 years of the Optimist LP and things like that. And yeah, it's just a really nice way of marking 10 years feels like a um yeah a long time that's passed and looking back at it it's like oh wow

that was our first one that really took us places that that started the whole thing off um so we wanted to do something and yeah repressing it is is great we love records so and what's the yeah love a bit of vinyl. You're in good company to talk about. We can nerd out. What was the experience like putting out an album that you say so much has changed? You know, a woman in her early 20s to a woman in her early to

mid to late 30s. There's a range between you. You know, you grow so much and you change so much. Does it feel different bringing out the same album? Yeah. I think, you know, they say so much and you change so much does it feel different bringing out the same album um yeah I think um you know they say you have your whole life to write your debut album and then you usually have about a year to write your second one which is why it's um known as the difficult second album so the first album was was a collection of of all the songs we'd we'd written and kind of everything

up to that point and you you can't ever recreate that and it was like Emily said a launch a launch pad to take us around the world and we met so many amazing musicians and sort of collaborators from that album so it was 10 years in November and we thought we would celebrate it by doing a gig at the Barbican we've actually got two dates um 22nd of November and 3rd of December get them get the tickets get the tickets yeah well we're actually um they are sold out but we are specially releasing a few extra tickets today so I thought I would mention that here on the show um and um yeah which is going to be so exciting.

And then National Album Day, which is on Saturday, is celebrating this year debut albums. And we're actually ambassadors for that this year. So it's all kind of perfectly come around. I think they must have done it for us on purpose. I imagine it's all for us. Yeah, it's all for you. And so nice that it's National Album Day because, you know,

now in the world of instant music and pre-selected playlists, we don't sit and listen to albums from beginning to end. I'm a huge fan of the album, as are you, I know. Yeah, yeah. And we've always been an album band. The type of music that we do and how we like to make it is to um yeah build a kind of cohesive collection of work that hangs together and that you can listen to from start to finish um and yeah it is it is becoming rarer and the way that we

consume music is is changing and it is far more kind of instantaneous and track by track. But I think that regardless of how much that changes, albums, I think there will always be a place for albums just because of some thirst inside you of what you need and having the whole mood, the whole palette rather than just like one song yeah and we were saying what's interesting it makes us sound like dinosaurs but when we put out this this record 10 years ago in our record contract there was nothing about streaming it wasn't even mentioned it just wasn't because it was how rapidly the world has changed yeah so the way

we listen to music has literally changed during those 10 years since that record. So I think a resurgence in vinyl and, you know, growing enthusiasm for that is a really great thing. And, you know, you have to physically put it on, turn it over halfway through. And you kind of think it's weird that that trend is growing whilst people seem to have a shorter attention span.

So there's obviously kind of two different mindsets happening at the same time. There's kind of room for everything. I mean, I love a playlist as much as the next person. But yeah, to be really immersed in someone else's world for, you know, it's a short story versus a novel and, you know, or an episode versus a film and to really be immersed in their world and, yeah, that palette or that feeling or that whatever it is for, you know, a full hour or whatever it is, it's just, you can't beat it. Oh, yeah, and it's respectful to the artist. Now, this is making me sound like a dinosaur.

I think I was saying to a young cousin, it's respectful of the artist to sit and listen to their album from beginning to end. And also I think it puts more pressure on people to put out high-quality work because, you know, if there's one good song and the rest of the albums are Dutch, you're going to, you know, back in the 90s or something, that would have been quite clear if people would have said,

oh, there's only one good song on it. So it sort of puts pressure on people to... That respect works both ways, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. It's respectful for the artist to the listener to create an album that is really worth listening to from start to finish with like lots of little touches that you wouldn't get from standalone singles let's go back in time a little bit because you are three sisters grew up in a

very musical household yeah yeah so what sort of stuff were you listening to when you were growing Is it Jessica? A lot of the Beatles. Yes. And lots of harmony music. Mum and Dad, you know, they were very much in the kind of the world of the 60s. So there was Mamas and Papas, the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel, Crosby, Stills and Nash. Loads of Motown as well. Loads of Motown. Lots of 60s and 70s pop. Really strong backing vocals. They got you singing in the local pub.

Is it The Horns? Yeah. In Watford. Shout out to The Horns. Shout out to The Horns. Was there any choice in this, Camilla? Well, we weren't that proactive because we always just associated singing with just like fun and parties.

Because with the group of people that we grew up with on our street, there were all these families that kind of hung out. And when there were parties, it'd get to a certain hour and guitars would come out and people would sing and I think we um realized that we really enjoyed singing together and that it came quite naturally to us but we only ever thought of it as just something that's fun and that you do when you socialize and have a nice time with the people that you love um so I don't think it was a natural thought for us of like, we've got to get on the stage right now. Actually, I think if our parents had tried to push us in that direction, we probably would have rebelled and just said no.

But they never really did, so we sort of did it. And you're still together. Not one of you has decided that you want to go off and become a doctor or do something completely different. I'm out. It would have been a wiser decision, financially speaking. I think it's too late to retrain now. And Emily, you are expecting baby number two. I am, yes. Congratulations. Thank you very much. And your first child is three now. Yeah, she just turned three. And so you had to take a step back. Yeah, it was weird. It sort of coincided with COVID and actually most of touring stopping anyway.

So the real effects of having to take a step back from or choosing to take a step back from touring, I haven't actually really had to deal with that yet because touring in earnest hasn't truly got going again, has it, since the pandemic. So, yeah, so I miss it. But it didn't feel compatible with having a young babe. And we were saying it's interesting that, you know, these conversations and these questions are so rarely had with male musicians about you know what are you going to do now you've had a kid are you going to stay at home are you going to take time off from touring

because most of the guys we know in bands have someone at home who can look after the baby to the kids and so it puts us in a you know totally different position all being women in this group but you know we're sisters and family comes first. Not to sound like the Mitchells. Family. But it always does. And, you know, as long as we can all do what we need to do, we always support each other and we'll make it work. Yeah, get Baby Tambourine.

Get her on the road. Exactly. She's pretty good on a kazoo, I have to say. Fantastic. And we played, we by playing um Good Woman from your latest album Good Woman beautiful beautiful track but when you recorded that album um you lost your mother sadly yeah so how tell me about how that's impacted you as a group and and the creative process and what what that was like um well it was it was a real bolt from the blue and a devastating one.

So it knocked us for six and was a really dark time. And we still miss her very much and think about her every day. And she would also be tuning in to listen to this. Oh, yes. 100%. God, she'd be texting us. What would she be saying? Oh, she'd just be like

she'd probably be telling us, she'd probably be trying to be like pep talky of like, well make sure you do that and make sure you don't... Mention the Barbican. Don't swear. What's mum's name? Jean. Yeah, she was

a big fan of Women's Hour and The Archers as well, shout out. She yeah she was she was a big fan of of woman's hour and the archers as well shout out yeah um but um she she she died very suddenly and it was during the making of that record so i think we we tried to sort of carry on and we kind of realized quite soon that we needed to just take some time off and we were lucky at the time that we kind of were able to. Yeah. So it made the whole process a lot longer to actually make the record. And by the time we sort of rallied ourselves and felt able to kind of finish it, that was the end of 2019.

And then, you know, it was only a matter of three months or so until lockdown happened. So it extended the kind of hibernation period. So, I mean, you know, it's not unique to us, of course, but it's been a strange time in all respects. And also then to lose your mother and then to have a daughter. Yeah. In a way, I think having Maggie, my daughter, sort of saved me and pulled me out of a real pit of grief. Sort of helped all of us to kind of look to the future again and to, yeah, and to sort of have some real joy. But it's bittersweet, isn't it?

Because you just sort of think, oh, your mum, I want my mum to see her and her to meet my mum. Well, it's nice to talk about, Jean. Yeah, it is nice. It's nice to have her in the room with us. Yeah. I absolutely could talk to you all day, but I would love to, and not just me, every single person listening to Radio 4 right now would love to hear you sing. So can I ask you to take your positions by these microphones that we've got set up and to grab your guitar and your kazoo no kazoo today

when are you due Emily? Not until February which feels like a long way away, I already feel enormous you look fantastic the genetics in this family are ridiculous as is the talent.

Absolutely delighted to say we've got the Staves. As you know, we've been talking to them. They're about to play us a live track. What track are you going to play for us? We're going to play a track from the debut album, and it's called In the Long Run. Take it away. For the Staves, Jessica, Emily and Camilla, thank you thank you so much oh i told you you're in for a treat thank you and their debut album dead born and grown is re-released as is their new album

as well get that good woman have a listen oh lovely now my next two guests are about to open your eyes to the possibility of brand new materials for fashion and accessories. Now, when I say they have put blood, sweat and tears into their work, I mean it literally, most often their own to make art. It's what's known as bio art, an art practice, which is all about harnessing living organisms and biological processes creatively. I'm joined by designer and TikTok content creator Chloe Fitzpatrick and Alice Potts, who grows unique crystals, which she uses to adorn everything from ballet shoes to most recently a Gucci handbag. And the crystals are made from, wait for it, sweat.

Alice and Chloe, welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm going to come to you first, Alice, and I'm going to quote something just to draw the listeners in from your instagram i've never heard anyone talk about sweat like this you say my obsession is sweat i always thought it came from a background in sports festivals and biodesign however it's an addiction um a fascination and an understanding there is nothing i prefer more than the chase of the first break of sweat that feeling of power and adrenaline Alice, you have a sweat addiction. I think it's a bigger understanding of our bodies. For me, I do have a background in fashion design and obviously a background previously of sport.

And sweat for me is something which has always been a bonding moment between those two different areas. And I think it's a really fascinating process. And the body itself has been something which is a huge compelling component of the way I design. So explain, because obviously this is radio, describe what we're talking about. What do you do with sweat? How do you turn it into these beautiful, because I've had a look at your Instagram and they are beautiful crystals,

absolutely stunning. You can't stop looking at them, but just explain what the process is. So sweat, I think a lot of people recognize the sort of beginning of like sweat as a crystal as when a lot of people begin to sweat they can see the beginning of white markings on their tops and when you look at this under like a microscope or under like um deeper conditions you got able to see that these are just fine granular pieces of salt so for me a lot of the idea came from the idea if we could basically collect larger volumes of sweat and be able to grow it in a more refined way we'd be able to expand the sort of growth of them so a lot of the things I do is working alongside designers or athletes collecting their sweat over a long period

of time roughly between six to three months and then that is done in the sort of distilling process so we obviously take away any of the dead skin cells any of the oils from the skin and basically separate any of the water away from the natural salts before growing it back on the objects they sweated on and that's sort of how a lot of my pieces have come together over the time. I'm going to bring Chloe in here as well, just to bring some other bodily stuff into the conversation. Chloe, you use bacteria from your body to make jewellery. Tell me how that works. So basically I use agar plates from the science lab

and I take these plates and put it all over my body and all these colours grow on the plate so like pinks oranges yellows and like see from like my stomach area I get more pinks and then from like my hands it's more yellow so it's like growing your own color and then I use that to dye cotton and to put in a little bit of UV resin which then I put into my jewellery. This is a question to both of you, why do this? I just find it so exciting like just using like new materials and and like the potential bacteria has like it's like this hidden world that we can't see and and I just want to help people appreciate like the unusual

things around us and you know because bacteria is everywhere it's like inside cheese and it's in yogurt and it's inside our bodies, like living everywhere. So I just want to help people appreciate the underappreciated and try and get rid of the stereotype around bacteria. So how do you get, and this is definitely for both of you and you, Alice, how do you get beyond the ick factor? I bet there are people listening right now who are turning their nose up and going, what? Doing what with what? Sweat and bacteria. So how do you kind of convince me and how do you get beyond that

I think for me it's just the misconception of sweat and I think like when you look back at the history of um because I wasn't the first sweat collector it was actually done in like ancient Greek and ancient Rome times and sweat was collected and actually paid for as like the base of all medicine. So it was an anti-inflammatory and people used it to like for all these different purposes to make pigment, especially on rusting of coppers. And actually sweat itself doesn't smell. It's actually the reaction to the bacteria on our skin, which it's and sort of um creating this own natural scent but i think sweat like for me one of the biggest things is that actually our bodies are completely amazing and i think nowadays with technology we have that absence a way of like how amazing it is to do like things like blinking have a conversation and actually how our body learns to adapt and respond around the environment so a lot of my practice is about getting people to really, really understand their bodies

and to begin to actually reconnect. And they're like the most amazing technologies that have ever been invented. And it'll be a long time till we ever invent anything as good as who we are. And I think it's that reconnection which really pushes me to get people to understand. Did you hear that? Chloe, she had a dig at bacteria there didn't she it's not the sweat it's the bacteria isn't it interesting though that I had to ask you a question about the ick factor isn't it interesting that that's how we feel about bodily fluids that you know even to think about having this conversation we even have that reaction

towards it something so natural. Yeah, like, see, I've been making TikToks of, like, the process, and it's, like, the reactions have been so different to, like, bacteria growing. Like, a lot of people who have more science backgrounds have found it, like, really interesting. And then other people have said they want to, like, pour bleach over their skin because they're so, like, uncomfortable with, like, the idea of the idea of bacteria being on them.

So yeah, the reactions are all very different. But you have amassed millions of viewers, Chloe. Why do you think people are so fascinated? I think they're just curious because everyone's bodies, everyone's bacteria, the bacteria in every person's bodies are different like I've done some like samples with my friends and one of my friends who had orange hair ended up having all this orange bacteria and one of my other friends had just white bacteria so people I feel like they want to know what type of bacteria they have. And I don't know. I think I got a lot of views because it is kind of gross. People love to be grossed out. It's that morbid fascination.

I don't really want to watch it, but I can't stop watching it. And Alice, with your crystals, what real-world impact can you have developing these sweat crystals? I think at the moment I've used them predominantly as art pieces or fashion pieces. So I do a lot of collaborations with different fashion brands. But there is a lot of work being done at the moment with how sweat can actually basically generate and produce electricity. So I think there's like a beginning of an understanding that actually there is a lot that our bodies can do and trying to understand how we utilise it. And I think there's a lot of traditional methods

that didn't have the advances in technology that we have now that we can actually start looking back at some of the previous methods we'd used and actually start beginning pushing things forward. They're doing nothing new. It's just sweat and bacteria, everybody. Chloe Fitzpatrick, Alex Potts, thank you so much for speaking to me now i'm sure there's lots of you who do have a bit of fascination and want to know what the stuff looks like get on the tiktok go on their instagram have a look and they are beautiful really beautiful and you will

be drawn into them thank you um so much all of you getting in touch with all your musical choices sorry i haven't been able to get through a lot of them but i do want to read a couple of messages about the staves out emma said um i'm so looking forward to seeing the anniversary show at the barbican and good woman is literally one of the best albums ever created i haven't stopped listening to it all year and someone jesse says i fell in love with the staves debut album when it came out when i was at university my friends and i went to leeds, great uni, to see them perform. So I feel pretty old realising it was 10 years ago. It's wonderful to hear them live.

It's been wonderful to have your company. Have a great weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Are you fed up with the news? Top jobs in the new cabinet have all gone to horses in the apocalypse. And I loved it. The skewer.

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