Woman's Hour - The Turkish elections and female voters

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

In the last two years Turkey has withdrawn from the Istanbul Convention which "creates a comprehensive legal framework and approach to combat violence against women" and at the same time international observers have raise concerns over femicide rates in the country as well as violence against women and girls. Anita Rani talks to the independent journalist Barcin Yinanc and Ravza Kavakci from Erdogan’s ruling AKP party.A recent survey of a thousand teenage girls has found that nearly half of them have struggled to access products at school. On Sunday a Period Parade will make it’s way through London to call for continued support to combat period inequality and shame. We talk to Emily Wilson - the International chief executive of I Rise, a period-equality charityTracey Curtis-Taylor is a British aviator who has paid tribute to pioneering female aviators like Lady Mary Heath and Amy Johnson by flying the paths they once flew. Now she’s written a book all about her flights, and the reasons behind them. She joins Anita in the studio to talk more about her adventures. Bar Pandora is the emerging alt-pop project and stage name of Coventry-based musician, writer, artist & performer, Charlie Tophill. The new single Ultramess is out this week. Charlie joins Anita to discuss the inspiration for her work, overcoming shame and self-policing in the music industry.Liz Harvie and Debbie Iromlou are both adult adoptees in their 50's and Woman's Hour listeners. Having heard our discussion about adoption on Tuesday they decided to get in touch. They wanted to talk about the impact of being adopted on their mental health all through their lives.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I'm very excited this morning as we are entering peak Woman's Hour today and discussing periods. Oh yes, indeed. There's a period march on Sunday celebrating the young activists who are fighting for all schoolgirls to have fair access to towels and tampons. And look how far we've come. A traditionally shame-laden topic is now quite rightly being celebrated and shouted about. It sparked a great conversation in the office here at Women's Hour HQ about how things have changed since we were young in the Jurassic Age.

So I'd like to hear from you this morning. How have things changed in your world around periods? What was your experience of getting it? Who, if anyone, spoke to you about it? And how different is it for your daughter and her generation? As someone who could never bring myself to talk about it because of all the usual shame and all that nonsense, this feels like a very liberating moment.

It's come full cycle, if you'll excuse the pun. Get in touch with me in the usual shame and all that nonsense. This feels like a very liberating moment. It's come full cycle, if you'll excuse the pun. Get in touch with me in the usual way. You can text me on 84844. You can email me by going to our website. Or you can WhatsApp or even voice note me. It's 03700 100 444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media,

which I actively encourage you to do, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, we'll bring you the latest on the Turkish election. We'll all be going on an adventure with aviator Tracy Curtis-Taylor, who flew a vintage biplane from South Africa to the UK. And after our earlier item in the week about the challenges adoption families face, Two women got in touch and they'll be talking about how being adopted affected their lives and music. Lovely. That's Bar Pandora,

otherwise known as Charlie Tophill. You'll be hearing more of that and her later. But first, on Sunday, a period parade will be making its way through London. What's a period parade, I hear you ask? Well, the Every Period Counts campaign wants to celebrate the work being done by young activists and organisations across the UK to combat period inequality and shame. They'll be marching to Parliament as they keep calling for change. A recent survey of 1,000 teenage girls has found that nearly half of them

have struggled to access products at school. This is despite the fact that 97% of secondary schools in England have ordered the free products and period product schemes are in place across the four UK nations. Well, I'm joined now by Emily Wilson, the International Chief Executive of iRise, a period equality charity, who gathered this data. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Emily. It's lovely to have you here. Thank you. Delighted to be here. Tell us more about what you found. So I think we commissioned the work because we were hearing stories from hundreds of young people across the UK about the challenges they were facing in schools,

including issues accessing the free products that you've talked about being available, but also being banned from using the toilet during class. We even had stories about girls resorting to using their socks when period products weren't available. And like you say, there are period schemes in place. And so we commissioned this work to try and uncover what's actually happening on the ground so that we can get this working for young people and really make sure that everyone has what they need in school and doesn't have to miss class because of their period. Because this stat that 97% of secondary schools in England have ordered free... That's great.

So that stat refers to the institutions that have used the scheme across the four years that it's been active. If you look at the number of schools and colleges that are active at any given point, it's significantly lower than that. And then if you look again at how many of those schools are effectively using the scheme and making these products available in school in a shame-free way, that number drops even lower. And that's why we get that stat that half of girls are still struggling to access products. I think lots of people would have sat up and paid attention at the idea of someone having to use their sock.

That's just awful. What else are you hearing? What's the reality of what schoolgirls are going through? What are they telling you? So we've heard stories about girls repeatedly asking to use the toilet during class because they're on their period and actually being given a detention and having to sit in in kind of blood-soaked clothes until the lesson's finished and we've heard stories of free products in the staff room but

paid dispensers in the toilets where children are having to pay a pound for a single pad and so there's a real mismatch between the the really kind of I think really exciting policies that we really welcome and that we're you know we're fully behind and what's happening on the ground and no one wants this no one wants this to be the the reality in schools. In England the period product scheme has been in place since 2020 I'm just going to give you a little breakdown of what's going on in the countries and the government says its funding will continue until at least 2024 in wales the government committed to ensuring free period products were available to every school girl and college in the country scotland made history in 2018 by becoming the first in the world to make period products free to school college and university students it sounds like

it is being prioritized is there more to be done So I think there was a lot of work prior to the pandemic. And actually, since then, it's fallen off the agenda quite significantly. So the government has a UK period poverty taskforce. That taskforce has not actually met since the start of the pandemic, despite the fact we know that period poverty is on the rise. So before the pandemic, one in 10 girls struggled to access products. That's now up to one in four, according to data from Plan International UK. And though we have these fantastic schemes, actually, the scheme in England hasn't been formally evaluated, despite a commitment to do that when it was introduced. So we feel like there's a moment here to kind of put periods back on the agenda and actually we want the

government to announce a new action plan around how they're going to make period dignity in schools a reality for everyone and that we want that to include things like looking at what's happening across the uk evaluating learning because actually there's work to be done to make sure that this delivers on the ground for young people. There's a piece on the BBC website today which says some girls are having to ask for period products from staff rather than having them freely available in school toilets. Do you think that's the right approach? So I know from young people they would much much prefer the products to be available in the toilets for anyone that that needs them and I understand that there are schools have to balance different

challenges when they think about how to deliver these schemes. And that's why we want the government to look again, provide more support and guidance to schools about how to do it in a way that is shame-free and that meets the needs of girls and the whole school community. But I think from what we're hearing,

pupils would prefer products freely available in toilets. We've heard ridiculous stories of people having to make, you know, two or three phone calls to access a product, which is then actually locked in a cupboard, you know, down a long corridor. It's almost like a kind of mission impossible to get that period product in school, whereas condoms are much more freely available. So I think what the young people are saying is actually we want a tampon to be as available as a condom in our school. It shouldn't be mission impossible. I think most women would prefer that to happen in the workplace as well, let alone, you know,

when you're a kid trying to navigate, you know, your teenage years, lots of people getting in touch. Here in Derbyshire in Wales, young people have access to free period products. They can opt for a monthly delivery of pads and tampons or 14 pairs of great quality period knickers. It's a fantastic scheme, which I hope will continue. In Northern Ireland, the Department of Education funding to provide period products in schools has been cut by 40%. Why is that the case? What's happened there? So the argument there is that uptake has been less than expected. But I think that's and that's why this data that we've kind of jointly commissioned with a host of charities that care about this issue. That's why that data is so important, because this these schemes are

underutilised, not because there's not need, not because schools and girls don't want them, but because of these challenges, overcoming the shame, overcoming the stigma and getting them working. And so we one of the things we're asking government to do as part of this new action plan is to reverse that, that cut and actually look at how we can make sure that these schemes deliver as they were intended. So many people getting in touch with their experiences. Thankfully, it's not just in this country that things are changing. Fishermen's Rest in Malawi are doing some great work educating young people, importantly, both boys and girls about menstruation and providing girls with washable pads. That's from Jenny. Someone else has said, my older sister told me my mother only ever said, do you know about periods? I had mine by then. We had a school session run by our female PE teacher with very little info I went to school in Ireland in the 80s I often use tissue etc how times have changed in my house now

there are pads and tampons and display alongside the loo roll no shame two exclamation marks um we're asking listeners I wondered what your experience was like Emily my experience so I think for me when I started my period I felt that weight of shame and before then I was I was a real kind of outgoing adventurous kind of child and I think when my period started I became much more reserved I stopped feeling so comfortable doing sport at school I remember really withdrawing from physical activities and feeling very self-conscious about my body and I think it's that moment when the shame really kicks in and you kind of realise, oh, actually being a woman is shameful. So why something about having a female body is shameful.

It's the it's the moment. Well, for me, it was the moment that that reality hit me. And I suppose I've been trying to dismantle that ever since and fight that. And obviously the work I do allows me to kind of turn that on its head and to really celebrate that. But yeah, it was a tough moment for me. And you are continuing to do great work. And let's talk about this parade that's going to be going on in London. Tell us what's going to be happening.

So it's going to be first and foremost a celebration. And we want anyone who cares about period equality, who wants to put periods back on the agenda to join us. We're meeting at the South Bank Centre at 2pm and then we're parading through Westminster to 10 Downing Street where we'll be handing in hundreds of stories we've collected from girls across the country and a call to action directly to government. There's going to be, yes, more importantly, there's going to be glitter,

there's going to be colour. I know someone's coming dressed as a giant vagina. Excellent. It's going to be pretty epic. And there are going to be parades across the UK. So there's going to be a sister parade in Cardiff next weekend. But the Westminster one, it's the big one. It's the big moment.

And crucially, this is about championing young activists who are working to combat period inequality. Let's shine big moment. And crucially, this is about championing young activists who are working to combat period inequality. Let's shine a light on these people. Who are they and what are they doing? So I mean, they're incredible young people from across the UK. So we host a network of young activists called Empower Period. We got them together and we said to them, what's the big thing holding us back on the road to periods? And this whole campaign was born from that. I think a lot of people will have seen Tilly on the news this morning. She's one of our activists, a part of the Love Your Period campaign in Wales.

And we've got other groups in Sheffield, Power of Periods. They run an amazing TikTok channel, educating young people about periods. They're just an incredible network of young people who want to see progress on this and what is it what's the big thing holding us back shame shame where does it come from who's who's putting it on us well I think it comes from society and I think we but then it starts to come from us because like I talked about when I first started my period the attitudes that you encounter you then kind of internalise them and then you almost inadvertently become part of the shame.

And I think it's about that. And that's what the challenge is in schools. You know, teachers, schools want to support girls, but actually the shame and stigma that we've all learnt gets in the way and we have to kind of boldly flip that on its head if we want to really kind of remove this barrier for girls. And actually, you know, there's research that shows

that periods are the biggest cause of absenteeism for girls in the UK. And I think in the 21st century Britain, you know, we don't want periods to be the biggest cause of missing school for girls. And so actually, if we want to change that, we've got to celebrate it. We've got to flip it on its head.

We've got to be bold. And take ownership of it. Yeah. And so that boys don't feel that they can tease teenage boys don't feel they can tease us about it either you know that yeah we want boys on board I think we want male teachers on board and that's what the parade is about it's about flipping the shame on its head in a positive um parade of glitter and color and and period power just based on what we've just been talking about Beverly Johnson's message in to say,

I remember being in class age 13 and the boys behind me messing about and the red pen leaked when one said, oh, look, Mike's pen is having a period. I nearly slid under the desk. Boys knew about periods. And Vix from Cambridge says, I work in a primary school.

We have unisex toilets. Sadly, we have to keep our sanitary products away in a cupboard because otherwise other children open them up and stick them everywhere on a positive when one of the girls asks us for sanitary wear it often opens up the conversation and they talk to us about period pains and leaking etc so it becomes very normalized what would you like to see happen well i think that's a really good example of where we really need to tackle the shame in school communities and the stigma and we've heard even worse stories of boys actually weeing on the sanitary bins in

toilets and so I think it's about shifting attitudes and saying actually you know we want to create a supportive environment for girls and we want to talk about periods which support is normal it's accessible and actually there's not there's very little tolerance for bullying or stigmatizing behaviour in schools. We need to talk to the boys as well, though, don't we? The boys and the male teachers, because actually some of the girls that are talking about being given detentions for asking to go to the toilet on their period,

this is male teachers where they're asking multiple times. And it's about education. It's about making boys and men aware and helping them to be supportive. Emily, thank you so much for coming along to speak to me. Emily Wilson there, who's the International Chief Executive of iRise. It's a period equality charity and the march is on Sunday at the South Bank. South Bank Centre, 2pm. Lovely. Thank you so much.

Lots of you getting in touch with your stories. Roz says, I work at Franklin Sixth Form College in Grimsby. We provide sanitary products in both our female and gender neutral toilets with a note saying please take what you need no student should feel uncomfortable in learning um around um having their period now voters in turkey go to the polls for the second round of presidential elections this weekend so it's a chance for us to look at what the outcome could mean for women there. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been in power for more than 20 years and he's favourite to win, having narrowly missed out on a first round victory. His opponent is Kemal Kucidiloglu, who's backed by six opposition parties.

More women than men have historically voted for Erdogan, although observers have questioned whether that support will continue after his decision to withdraw Turkey from the Istanbul Convention. That's a treaty committed to stopping violence against women. And there's also been an increase in femicide rates. Well, I'm joined now on the line by two guests from Turkey, the independent journalist Bacin Yenac and Ravza Kavakci from Erdogan's ruling Justice and Development Party known as the AKP.

Good morning and welcome to you both. Ravza, I'm going to come to you first just to understand what President Erdogan has to offer the women of Turkey in terms of policies. Good morning, Anita. I wish a great day to all your listeners as well. I would like to start out by saying thank you to all the hundreds and thousands of volunteers, most of whom are women, who have worked day and night to try to win the hearts of people so that our democracy can have another democracy festival, as we call it, with almost 90% a record high that we cannot see anywhere in Europe, turnout of all the voters. And I'm happy to be here with you this morning. It's very good to have you here. And like you say, everybody's coming out to vote. But what is it then? What is it that particularly that is drawing women out to vote for Erdogan?

What is he offering women in terms of policies? Well, we know 47% of our members who are volunteers are women. And we're talking about five point, more than 5.5 million women. And they are interested in, they're very intelligent, just like the youth,

who want a better future for Turkey. That is why they are supporting President Erdogan and AK Party. And we're grateful for all their support. But what is it that he's offering them? They want a better future, but what is it that he is saying? Women's participation in education is one of the things. Since 2001, when the party was established, and 2002, when the first time they were elected into power, the 13% education rate went up to 40%. And also we can see this in higher education as well. At higher education, we have more women

and women's participation in the workforce reached a record 36% and 40% in public sector. So Ravza, I mentioned in the intro there about the Istanbul Convention. It's a European human rights treaty created to stop violence against women. Turkey was one of the first countries to sign up to it in 2011. But you withdrew two years ago. Why? Well, in relation to international conventions, what's important is to pass, to harmonize them into your law. If they're not harmonized, then they are not

effective. Turkey was one of the first countries to harmonize it. And we passed tougher legislation to end any form of violence against women. And they're in still force and they're stronger than the istanbul convention and we are still a part of the cdo and european court of human rights which have better follow-up processes that are more binding for turkey well if you say you've said you've harmonized it into your own law but some media reporting high femicide rates in turkey what What is the AKP doing to address that? Let's be very clear. Turkey is amongst those countries with one of the lowest femicide rates in the world, according to the World Bank Index published only this year,

far below the United States, Austria or even Finland. AK Party has been instrumental in raising the issues and enacting the laws with respect to this issue and other human rights issues and is on a trajectory of only increasing, not only increasing, but putting into place effective social services to tackle these sorts of devastating issues. I would like to give one example that I haven't seen anywhere in the world. We have a support app. It's called CADES, Women Emergency Assistance Notification System. Of course, only women who have smartphones are able to utilize this app. If they don't have any access, they are able to call the police, what we have, 155, and then get the support they need.

With just press of a button immediately, without any need to even speak, immediately the police will be at the door in a few minutes. I'm going to bring in Bacin Yenac, who's an independent journalist. Bacin, what's your response to what you're hearing from Ravza? Well, indeed, there has been some accomplishments during the first decade of AKP's rule, but I'm afraid these accomplishments are unfortunately backsliding. Today, the issue is no longer about going back to Istanbul Treaty. On the contrary, right now, there is a danger that Turkey's own domestic law on preventing women violence is at stake. Because unfortunately, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has forged an alliance

with two extremely religious groups. And these two parties have entered the parliament. And these are misogynist parties. And they have just one agenda, and that's to reverse these accomplishments. For instance, one of them talks about amending this very important domestic law. Another party is defending, you know, Quranic education versus scientific education. And in fact, Mrs. Kavakci's own colleague, Mrs., AKP's alliance and there is going to be a tremendous uphill battle to even safeguard the gains which have been actually

eroding over time in the course of the past few years. Ravza, I'd like to ask you as a woman, are you comfortable with what's happening? Well, let me say this. First ofza, I'd like to ask you as a woman, are you comfortable with what's happening? Well, let me say this. First of all, I wasn't aware that we would be, there would be a discussion panel. I was thinking we would be on, but I'm happy to respond. We can respond to that, yeah. No problem.

No problem. Let me state it like this. First of all, what Özlem Zengin said is exactly the same words as President Erdoğan. He said that violence against women is our red line. But of course, we know as a woman, unfortunately, I'm sure Barton lives that as well. We get more attacks on social media. We get more attacks and... Oh, I think we've lost her line there. I'm going to come back to you, Bacin. Because Erdogan has traditionally relied on the support of women. Is that still in

evidence? Is he still getting the support? Yes, you know, according to numbers, he does get the support, but I do feel that there is still an appetite for change even among his supporters. But this change is not translating into reality because, first of all, in terms of elections, there is no playing, there is no equal level playing field.

The mainstream media is largely dominated by the government. The opposition wants to use social media, but there is a lot of oppression on the opposition. Just recently, there has been investigations on social media accounts. Therefore, some of the supporters of Mr. Erdogan, even though some of them might be looking for change, some of them are, when they are undecided, are constantly under government propaganda, and they are all constantly being faced by the fear factor that if the opposition comes, that the conservative women could be discriminated against. And I feel that some of these fears are unjustified because the opposition has tried to appeal to the conservative women by saying that, yes,

indeed, in the past, we have made some mistakes. We recognize that we want to have a reconciliation. And the opposition, main opposition party, has forged alliances with other conservative parties. Are you able to hear me? Yes, we can hear you now. I'm sorry. I'm back. I don't know what happened. Don't worry. I apologize. It's okay. It's just modern technology.

We've got you back, Ravza. That's good to hear. Wonderful. Wonderful. I'm sorry to interrupt again. I was just, while I was speaking about the red line for all AK Party members. I mean, I can't say all AK Party members, but red line for AK Party and the administration is violence against women. But let me state this. What we have is a new stage for Turkey. These accusations that were made by Barton before I left, they are not correct. I completely disagree.

Let us not forget that young girls are kidnapped by terrorist PKK in Southeast. They're being used as terrorist child soldiers. They get raped, psychologically tortured and eventually killed. And the HDP, now the left, Green Left Party members who are HDP members as well, they are also in parliament. And not once have they said anything against the PKK terrorist organization. These are huge claims that you're making, Reza. Yes, it's not claims. It's out in the open. They are the vice chair of HDP.

When they were in the parliament, this is what she said. We have our back. We have the terrorist organization on our back. So this is out open. But we as AK Party, who have the majority in the parliament, are the ones who passed the law stating that violence against women is not acceptable. And I am one of the women who will do whatever it takes to make sure that that law is intact. And I know that my colleagues with AK Party having the majority women members of parliament in the parliament will do its best to do so as well. Bahçin, what is the main opposition at the election offering as an alternative vision for women? Well, first of all, they are promising a return back to Istanbul Convention because although this was signed under the AKP rule, they do endorse it and they do believe

that this is a very important convention. And they're also promising a change in mentality, because in order to fight against domestic violence, you need a change of mentality. And we do not see this mentality. Even this domestic law is staying on paper, which is what is important. It's the implementation. It's the implementation by the judiciary, it's the implementation by the security forces. And unfortunately, we have witnessed a backsliding on the implementation of this domestic law. Therefore, and they are also promising women to be, you know, individuals that if they are facing

domestic violence that they should not hide it saying family is important and what remains what happens in the family remains in the family. I don't agree with this. I'm sorry I have to interfere if I may.

But I do not interfere when you talk right? I think what we're just trying to establish is what each party is trying to do to improve the lives of women in Turkey. So that's the focus of this conversation. But yes, Ravza, what would you like to say? I mean, I don't agree with what was stated.

Women who decide to be at home and serve their family have a right as well, don't they? Mothers who have multiple children are being looked down upon in some societies. I don't agree with that. It is up to a woman who should choose whether she wants to be at home with her family. And AK Party, when my daughter was born in 1999, I had no opportunity to do flexible working hours. So I had to quit my job for five years. I was at home with her, did other things and then went back to the workforce. is the one who brought the system where mothers who want to be with their babies

for a certain time, they are able to get flexible hours. So we have passed the laws that made this possible. Okay, well, I'm afraid we've run out of time to speak to both of you, but I'd like to thank you both for joining me. It is an ongoing discussion and the elections are taking place at the moment.

Results will be out Sunday. Bachin Yananch and Ravza Kavakchi, thank you so much for joining me. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Lots of you getting in touch about your period stories. Woman's Hour, nice to hear from you.

I had my first period when I was in school back in 1975. Bellevue Girls in Bradford. I proudly told my friend Heather, who demanded to see, so went into the toilets, pulled down my pants and showed her. We giggled and then I set off to the staff room to ask for help. The male teacher who opened the door looked horrified and quickly ushered me to the school secretary who furnished me with a pad from the cupboard in her office

in return for 3p. I smile as I remember that day. I felt no shame and thank you for reminding me of that day when I entered womanhood. And that's from Jan. If you'd like to share your story, then please do. 84844 is the number to text. Now on Tuesday's programme, we discussed some new research from Adoption UK that highlighted

how nearly half of families with adopted children aged 13 to 25 say they're at crisis point or facing severe challenges. We heard from Becky Brooks from Adoption UK and author of the report, Claire, the mother of two now adult adopted children. Well Liz Harvey and Debbie Iromelu both adult adoptees in their early 50s and Women's Hour listeners heard the discussion and decided to get in touch. They wanted to talk about how being adopted has impacted them throughout their lives so we're delighted to say that you're here to talk to us. Welcome to both of you. Debbie's in the studio and Liz you're on zoom from your house at home in surrey um liz why did you get in touch um morning anita um thanks for having me on well i i can offer decades of lived experience as an

adult adoptee of 49 years um who's dealt with the effects of adoption all my life and who can provide evidence by experience of how mental health support is very much needed from the get-go in adoption if we're to avoid what's happening now, which is that a great number of older adult adoptees have been given significant mental health diagnoses from a failure to recognise our adoption trauma and a lack of accessible and adequate support for us.

What was your response, Debbie, when you heard? I was very much kind of upset that they were just talking about children, really, because adopted children grow into adults and adopted gives us the emphasis on something that took place in the past. But we're very much living with the consequences of what happened to us when we were given up for adoption. So that's why we call ourselves adoptees, because it really stays with us throughout our lives. It doesn't stop at the age of 25.

So tell me your story, because you actually only found out that you were adopted at 16, didn't you? Yes, that's right, yes. So my birth mother came from Kuwait, and this is where the whole adoption story gets knocked on its head almost. She came from quite a high-class family, and she came here to London to visit a Harley Street doctor, and she told him that she was pregnant and that she couldn't keep me

because if her father found out, my grandfather, he would kill her, for the sake of their honour. And he put her in touch with a private adoption agency who promised my birth mother that I'd be taken care of and given up to a lovely family. And she can get on with her life and forget all about me. Unfortunately, I wasn't adopted into a loving family as they'd promised my mother. And I was placed, first of all, with a temporary foster mother for two months. And then after the temporary foster mother, I was given to another foster mother and taken to Suffolk and grew up in a very white rural area with my foster mother who became my adoptive mother. And she raised me to believe that I was her own daughter and that my birth father had died before I was born.

I mean, it's quite bizarre, really. And I always wondered why I looked different to her, to the people around me. And she told me that was because my birth father had come from Iran or her husband. In actual fact, she'd read my adoption papers and used that to make up a story. So at the age of 16, I discovered the truth. And I was absolutely devastated. I was traumatized, but I didn't know that word at the time. I didn't know where to go because I'd always

suspected something wasn't quite right. I always had a gut feeling, an instinct. But when I approached my mother and asked her questions about the day I was born, what hospital I was born in, she could never answer those questions. There was no photos of me when she'd given birth. So there was always this feeling of you kept something from me. And even when I discovered the truth, she didn't want to talk about it. So what was the impact on your mental health? And how has it stayed with you? So the impact was that I didn't get any support. Social services knew throughout my childhood that my mother was deceiving me. And they just wrote in my file that this is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. This child is going to be distraught when she discovers the

truth. So then I discover the truth and I just do what I suppose any child does. And I started to run away from home because I didn't feel safe. I did not feel safe in my own home. And I went searching for my birth mother because I thought in my head, because I was a teenage girl, that if I just go and look for my birth mother, everything will be lovely and she'll hold me in her arms and she'll tell me she was so sorry for leaving me and I'll go back and and we'll be reunited just like a fairy tale but nobody prepared me for what I would discover and nobody sat me down and helped me understand why I was given away in the first place. Do you feel like sharing that with us? Yeah sure so I went to the adoption agency and the lady who placed me actually who

met my birth mother basically was very standoffish she was very surprised that I turned up she was very dismissive of me she didn't want me to show me any paperwork. I didn't know my rights at the time. I didn't know I had a file that I had access, legal access to. She wouldn't show me much at all. And she told me to go back to Suffolk and just get on with my life and be a good little girl and forget about my birth mother because she's living her life now and she's probably married and you'll cause such danger for her. You know, her life was it's not the same over there the culture's completely different and uh i just then where could i go i was desperate it felt like i was floating it felt like i wasn't grounded and the

pain i can sense it to be it's just it's very raw it's very real it's still raw yeah because it was never dealt with back then yeah I needed the support then. I've lived with this throughout my life, you know, almost 55 years. And Liz, what was the impact of your history had on you and your relationships, your own children? Well, what it means to be adopted, maternal separation particularly forced in my case is trauma. And much of this trauma is pre-verbal

meaning that a baby feels the separation with every cell and fiber of its body and its brain you know the baby lives inside the body of its mother for nine months here's her voice her heartbeat knows her laugh her walk so there's an undeniable soul connection there and research has now shown that when you take a baby from its mother, it knows. Yeah. But what's about the impact on you? And I know that you're a mother yourself. How has that impacted? Well, you know, the separation from my mother, the severance from my family and my adoption experience itself has not only affected me, but I've got two teenage daughters. They're 18 and nearly 16. Although they've known my birth parents since they were born,

they do still live with the effects of my adoption. You know, they see the trauma that I've sustained and that impacts them. I asked my eldest about this. How do they see it? Well, my eldest daughter, she said that she suffers from a bit of anxiety and she's felt that that has stemmed from her observing my own fight

or flight style responses and hypervigilance which are both results of my CPTSD which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder which I was only diagnosed with a couple of months ago only a couple of months ago I'm 49 now um yeah so we are still very much dealing with the traumatic effects of our adoption and it's heartbreaking. And how easy is it for you to access support now? It's not easy. Yeah, there are barriers to us accessing support. You know, that support, it's such a niche trauma. It's such a niche trauma it's such a niche trauma and that that support needs to be um adoption trauma informed yeah how about how about you debbie sorry to interrupt this but how about you is you know how easy has it been for you to get the support it's it's been incredibly difficult

for me i i haven't managed to get support at all i'm not fortunate enough to to spend thousands on private therapy i've relied on the NHS to help me and they haven't. I was just offered CBT in my early 20s and it doesn't do anything because it's not about changing your thoughts and it's much deeper than that. And I was also diagnosed back in 2021 now and I've only just started the therapy. And you're part of a group called the Adult Adoptee Movement. Yes, that's correct. How important has being part of that group been? It's wonderful. It's a source of comfort, validation, because we all very much share experiences of feeling bereft in this world, of not having anywhere to turn and no one to listen to us and what's

happened to us. So yeah, we're really a great peer support group for one another. How about you, Liz? I feel the same. It's hugely validating. You know, we're a group of seven women. We literally started around our kitchen table. But, you know, even though our experience is vastly different, actually, we share so many commonalities and it's just so validating. You know, we don't need to explain things to each other. We just understand each other.

And we started this movement, which is, is, you know, really growing and hoping, you know, to advocate, not just for orthodontists, but adoptees coming forward.

I have to say, I feel like you have been understood this morning. Thank you. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very grateful that you got in touch with the program to say that you wanted to come and talk about your experience, because I think it's really important that you were heard.

And thank you. I know that couldn't have been easy for both of you, but's really important that you were heard. And thank you. I know that couldn't have been easy for both of you, but thank you so much. Thank you. And please do get in touch if you'd like to respond to anything you're hearing

on the programme this morning. But Liz and Debbie, thank you very much for speaking to us. And indeed, if you want to talk to us about anything that's happening in your life and we could turn it into a discussion on the programme, then go to the website

and drop us an email. Now, Amelia Earhart, Amy Johnson, Tracy Curtis-Taylor, all aviation pioneers and all women. And if you don't recognise the last one, you soon will. Tracy Curtis-Taylor is a British aviator who's flown her Boeing Stearman, a vintage biplane from 1942 from Cape Town in South Africa all the way to the UK and from the UK to Sydney and Australia. As if that wasn't enough, she's also flown across the United States.

Now she's written a book all about her three flights. It's called Bird. It's open, honest and paints a picture of an adventurer who overcomes numerous obstacles, sometimes triumphing, sometimes failing, but always soaring, moving forwards. I'm delighted to say Tracy joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Anita, good morning. Thank you. Great pleasure to be here. What inspired you to want to write this book? Well, it was suggested to me, actually. I wasn't, you know, it was a bit of a long shot in a way.

But having gone through 30 plus years of flying vintage aeroplanes and then 10 years of expeditions, they thought it might make a good story, really. And, you know, in trying to highlight this remarkable achievements of the women in history, which, of course, are under-recognised in an era when we were crying out, we are crying out for pilots, engineers, etc. So I was really trying to hold them up as an inspiration to this next generation. So who were the women that inspired you then? Well, my flights are about chiefly three of them. Lady Heath, an almost forgotten aviator, very brilliant Irish woman in the mid 1920s, who, you know, was a dispatch rider in World War One. She was one of our first female Olympic athletes. She went on to get her commercial pilot's license, first woman to hold a commercial license in this country and

an engineering license. And of course, her finest moment was this amazing flight up Africa. So it was really, you can't recreate these events, you know, you're separated by 85 years of history here. And but, you know, I was trying to sort of do it in an aeroplane from that era. But of course, we've got the benefits of modern navigation, etc. But of course, they were also flying in British Empire, you know, they it's today we're flying in the post 9-11 world of bureaucracy, security, some very difficult regimes, you know, so very, very different environment. But they were both, both Lady Mary Heath and Amy Johnson, flying in a world full of men.

Has that changed much? No, actually, no, it hasn't changed anything like enough. And it's amazing to see and the statistics speak for themselves. But there's still only 5% of commercial pilots that are women. So I don't believe it's ever going to be 50%, but I'd like to think it would be somewhere there in double numbers. So I think it reflects a broader societal issue with these things. You know, I think women need to understand the opportunities are out there

and they need to step up to the plate. But so many of the structures around this have traditionally banned women. And, you know, the story of aviation in the 20th century is how women were banned from it, actually. So what drew you to flying? What was the first moment where you thought, this is what I want to do? Well, actually, I never thought that,

but I had my first flying lesson at 16. You know, I had no access into aviation. I had, you know, the first 10 years of my life was in Canada, and then we came back to the north of England. And, you know, you couldn't join the air cadets as a woman, you couldn't join the Air Force. So there was no way into it. And it never even occurred to me, there was no proper career advice, etc. So although I'd had my first flying lesson at 16, so the seed was sown then, it wasn't until I moved to New Zealand in the early 80s, following my twin sister out there, that I started to fly in earnest. And of course, New

Zealand is a wonderful aviation country, it's affordable, it's accessible. So I just waitressed my way through a private license, a commercial license, an instructor rating. And the key to this was I joined the New Zealand Warbirds, which again was predominantly men, you know, some military, some civilian pilots, but they flew old airplanes. So that was really my access into that. And once I started with that, I didn't want to fly anything else. I was going to ask you what the cost was, actually, because it's not the cheapest of hobbies, but you worked as a waitress and saved up to pay for your passion.

I worked multiple jobs. I mean, I'd always worked at home. You know, from an early age, we had a restaurant, a pizza restaurant. So we always worked, all of us. So, you know, it was just completely natural. But now, you know, there's all sorts of support schemes sponsorships and so on so it's it's it's different again there's so much in the book there's so much uh it's about your personal life and the ups and downs all the rest of it but the stuff that really stood out for me are the women and the young girls

that you met around the world doing this flying solo and when you particularly when you went to india and pakistan tell us about that. Those two countries. This was, you know, the real ethos of the flight was to take the message around the world. And with the benefit of fantastic sponsorship from Boeing and Artemis Investments and the Britain is Great campaign, we were able to build a global outreach program. So everywhere we landed, I had a program of media, of visiting girls' schools, of conferences and mentoring groups. So it was just amazing, actually, because to go into these schools, and again, these are societies which can be very repressive towards women. It's very difficult for them to go on and have careers, et cetera. But they were absolutely wild with excitement.

At one school in Karachi, the Darwood Foundation School, there were 2,000 schoolgirls there from the age of 5 to 18. And they had made My Flight, obviously the project for the month, but they were dressed as airline pilots. They had biplanes stuck to their heads. They were singing and dancing. And it was just completely overwhelming because they understood. They understood Amy's story in history. They understood the aspiration of it, the freedom, the emancipation. And it was like, so used to jumping on the cheap holiday flights. And, you know, the whole thing of aviation has become rather mundane. And yet there was a time when this

was the greatest of all human dreams. You know, this was the great achievement of the 20th century. Well, you know, I'm completely with you because I love the idea of adventure, particularly female solo adventures and flying. And you get to see the Earth from a completely different perspective. Is there any sort of standout landscape that just remains with you? The greatest flight was flying the Rift Valley in Kenya. And that was low over the flamingos, over the elephants and the wildlife. It was out of this world. And I asked you about the cost to pay for it. What about the cost to your personal life? Well, I, you know, I don't think you get everything in life. And I think that's been one of the modern myths, particularly for women, you know, and very early on, I made the

choice that I was going to live a life of freedom and independence and adventure. And that does come at a cost. So I've never, I've never regretted that for even three seconds, I might add. So it's another way of being. And I think I have that in common with the pioneering women, because they also didn't have families. They pursued this and they lived extraordinary lives. What's the next adventure? Well, hopefully the Americas, Cape Horn to Alaska. So, you know, we keep going. Fantastic. Keep going, keep going. Tracey Curtis-Taylor, thank you so much for coming to speak to me. Aviator. Apparently it's Aviatrix is the female.

Well, it is. Is that right? It's a great word. It's Aviator. Can I just say, Anita, we've also got the film coming out of the same title. Please do. Yes, yes, yes. You must tell us that. Thank you. And the book is out now. The book, Bird, and the film, Bird. And there'll be a musical to follow.

Oh, wonderful. Lovely. Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Thank you. Now, Bar Pandora is the emerging alt-pop project and stage name of Coventry-based musician, writer, artist and performer Charlie Tophill. Championed by Six Music, she is one to watch.

Hot Music Live described her as, check this out, this is very good, Bapandora's mesmerising live incarnation is going to knock your socks off. Charlie has an immense charisma, a stage presence, and the way they played off each other to realise her unusual and haunting compositions

was breathtaking. Well, Charlie, welcome to Woman's Hour. That is not a bad write-up, mate. Hello. Yeah, what a nice flattering quote to open up with. That's really, really lovely. I love to be here. Thanks for having me. It's great to have you here. I'm going to play a bit of your new single. But before we do, describe your sound. Tell us about how you work.

So I work at home in my home studio. I used to work as a sort of singer-songwriter, going in studios, performing under my own name. And it never really worked out for me. I always felt like I didn't sort of have the control I needed over my music. And it turns out maybe I'm a bit of a control freak. I like to have my hands on everything. And so I sort of stopped doing it for a bit

and then um started recording at home which is what I do now and under the new name Bar Pandora which I've been performing under that name for just over a year now actually so not that long um and I found that doing that working from home like doing everything myself I do have I work I have a collaborator I work with um called Simply Dread he's based in Huddersfield. And we work remotely, sort of collaborating, sort of sending stuff back and forth, writing together. And essentially, I just found that that works really well for me because I have total control and I'm the boss.

And that's quite nice. And I think that often doesn't happen when you're a woman in the music industry. I was just going to say, when you say you have total control, you were the only woman in the band before. Was that a frustration? Always been. I've always been the only woman in the band. Yeah, it has been sort of since I started in the music industry a long time ago. I've always been in bands where I am the only woman. And in a way, that is quite good early training because you're not you never quite feel like you fit in. You work really hard. Obviously, it is a job like any other, it's really good to practice building those relationships and stuff. But you do find often that you're kind of the odd one out. There were times when I felt like

I wasn't really listened to sometimes. So when the first band I was in, I was invited in to be quote, the hot female singer, unquote. And at the time I was like oh wow this is great uh in hindsight uh that's not very respectful and I found sort of quite quickly that that is all I was kind of that was um that unfortunately for me that's not my experience now at all I do play with other bands and um everyone I work with now are people I choose to work with really respectful and lovely but I do think when you're a young woman in the music industry it's quite often that you find yourself in a situation where you're being slightly puppeteered or and sometimes because you don't have the confidence just to state your views and stand up for yourself you know like I can own up to the fact that I didn't

always put my thoughts you put my opinions forward as forcefully as as I would now why do you think that is uh I think probably I think it's a confidence issue I think there's a there's a lot of problems I think in terms of being a young woman making music one of them actually I I think is the barrier of technology so um I'm working at the moment I'm going to be doing some volunteering for a local nonprofit that is teaching young women how to do production and how to record at home. I know you're really passionate about that. What's Ultra Mess about?

Before I say that, I just want to say, Anita, you've got some moves. Yeah, mate. That was fun. It's such a shame you're on the radio. You should be on. Yeah. We'll link that up and maybe put it on the Instagram. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. I maybe you absolutely should um yeah um so that song a lot of the songs i write at the moment i found um

not it hasn't been a deliberate choice but tend to be um me unpicking some of the bad lessons i i sort of picked up and and learned in my earlier years um so that one is about the willful ignorance that leads you into a chaotic romance, basically. That is a story I know very well. And so it wasn't, I didn't intend it to be about that. It just sort of came out and it's like, okay, I guess I'm talking about that now. But yeah, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah, is it willful ignorance or just,

are you just a romantic? I think it's a combination of the two, I that. Yeah, is it willful ignorance or are you just a romantic? It's a combination of the two, I think. Yeah, let's say 50-50. And let's talk about, I mean, I said the production was excellent. I love those little noises that you had going through it on so many different levels. And you've produced it all and you're passionate about women. I co-produced it.

Co-produced it. Yeah, I need to, yeah. Credit to, again, with my collaborator, Simply Dread, I co-produced it. Yeah, I need to, yeah. Credit to, again, with my collaborator, Simply Dread, I co-produced that. So that's a choice I'm making because I love the working with Simply Dread. It's got amazing ideas, but I started off just doing Bar Pandora stuff by myself.

I think it's really important for women to get the skills down to be able to do stuff by themselves so that when they're collaborating it's a choice it's not a dependency it's because it's fun and it is so fun to collaborate it's like it brings me so much joy but only because i'm choosing to do it yes and but you you're really interested in the technology gender gap in music aren't you you really want to the importance of teaching women to record and produce their own music absolutely yeah yeah so as I sort of mentioned earlier I'm going to be doing some volunteering helping young women learn how to do that because I think the trouble is when you don't I think there is I mean there's a technology

to gender gap in general isn't there we all know about that and um and in the music industry there's obviously a lot of male gatekeepers in the industry but then there we all know about that and um and in the music industry there's obviously a lot of male gatekeepers in the industry but then there's also the fact that in the production studios anytime that you're recording your music majoritively if that's a word you're working with male producers and male engineers and that's okay some of the time but there are times when it's really not and uh and there are i know lots of stories and i've been in situations myself um where people don't feel they're listened to a lot of control is taken away and as i said earlier you kind of end up being creating a sound that you

feel is someone else's idea of what you should be and not what you should be so if you have control of that yourself yeah you can do authentic creative expression. And it comes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, when you don't have the confidence to speak up as well. Very quickly, you're going on tour next week? I am indeed, yeah. I'm going on tour with a band called The Howl and The Hum

that are based in Leeds. And yeah, you're neck of the woods. And yeah, that's going to be really fun. We're going to be going around the Netherlands, which is very exciting. You're going to have a great time. I're going to be going around the Netherlands, which is very exciting. You're going to have a great time. I'm going to try and come and see you ASAP. The single is out today,

Ultra Mess from Bar Pandora. Charlie, thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute delight. It's a great single and more power to you. Thank you to all of you who've been getting in touch with your stories. Someone about adoption. We have four adopted children now all in their 50s.

They all knew from children that they were adopted. None of them have wished to follow up on their birth mother's stories. They're all positive sides to adoption as well. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex and dangerous places in the world.

In my new 10-part series, Frontlines of Journalism, I'm taking you to some of the most difficult stories I've had to cover. Six mortar rounds landed in or around the graveyard. Get a bit emotional about it, actually. To look at the obstacles that get in the way of the truth and how journalists like, navigate around them. It is never definitive. We can have this argument.

Journalists tend to argue. Every word that comes out of your mouth is a form of opinion. If the world saw, the world would react. Subscribe to Frontlines of Journalism from BBC Radio 4 Now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.