Woman's Hour - The Windrush generation, Jess Gillam, Waiving your right to anonymity

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Windrush campaigner, Paulette Wilson’s brave decision to speak to Amelia Gentleman about the immigration issues she was facing with the Home Office was crucial in exposing the Windrush scandal. In her book, The Windrush Betrayal, Gentleman tells the full story of her investigation. Campaigner, Glenda Caesar was also caught up in the hostile environment – she came to Britain legally as a three-month-old child and had no reason to think she was not British until she was she was sacked from her job as an NHS administrator. She was one of the first recipients of the first Windrush compensation offers which she rejected as insulting. Lawyer, Jacqueline McKenzie explains why there is such a delay in victims receiving payments. Following her debut album ‘Rise’ which reached No.1 in the UK Classical Chart, award-winning saxophonist Jess Gilliam is back with a new album. She joins us to discuss diversity in classical music and advice for playing an instrument during lockdown. At the beginning of the month, you may have come across the story of Emily Hunt. She was filmed when she was asleep in a hotel room. A man was convicted of voyeurism, but it took her several years to secure that conviction and Emily decided to waive her right to anonymity to fight her case. But what do you gain and what do you lose if you do give up being anonymous? Joining us is Emily. Also Leona O’Callaghan who did the same: she waived her right to anonymity when the man who abused her as a child was on trial and then convicted. And someone who wants to be called “Rebecca” who doesn’t want to waive her anonymity. She’s pressing the CPS to prosecute a man who she says attacked and raped her.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for the 25th of September 2020. Good morning. Anyone claiming to be the victim of a sex crime has the right to remain anonymous. Why do some, including earlier this month, Emily Hunt, choose to reveal themselves? What does she lose and what does she gain as a result? Jess Gillum's debut album Rise reached number one in the UK's classical chart. Today we'll discuss her new album and her saxophone. And the final episode of the serial, Things Fall Apart. Now, it was in 2017 that we

began to learn of what's now known as the Windrush Scandal, when it emerged that hundreds of British citizens who'd come from Commonwealth countries in the years before 1973, primarily from the Caribbean and known as the Windrush Generation, had been wrongly detained, denied their legal rights and threatened with deportation or indeed deported from the UK by the Home Office. Paulette Wilson, who died earlier this year, was the woman who decided to speak to The Guardian's reporter, Amelia Gentleman, about what happened to her. In Amelia's book, The Windrush Betrayal, she tells the story of her investigations. Well, I'm joined by Glenda Caesar, who was also caught up in the hostile environment. She had come to Britain when she was three months old.

Jacqueline McKenzie is a lawyer working with people who are trying to get compensation from the government. And Amelia Gentleman is with us, too. Amelia, how did you uncover the story of Paulette Wilson? Well, it was a kind of very protracted investigation. And it began with an email that I had from a charity in Wolverhampton who were really, really worried about Paulette. They'd been trying to help her over a number of years to sort out her immigration status because she'd been told by the Home Office that she was an illegal immigrant. She was in a Yarlswood detention centre when the charity got in touch with me

and had been booked on a flight back to Jamaica which was a country that she'd left at the age of 10 and that she hadn't visited in 50 years and where she had no close relatives so Paulette obviously was beside herself with worry her family was was devastated and the charity hoped that by getting some media attention, they might be able to stay off the deportation. And luckily, Paulette did escape deportation just at the last minute after her MP got involved. But how difficult was it for her to talk to you

and explain what had happened? I mean, she must have been devastated by what had happened. Yeah, to begin with, she didn't want to talk about it. And it was only because her daughter, Natalie Barnes, was so furious about how her mum had been treated over the course of two years by the Home Office that she made Paulette talk to me. And it was difficult to talk about it because of the enormous stigma that still surrounds the issue of illegal immigration. And if you've been told that you're an illegal immigrant, the last thing you want to do

is to have that kind of put out in the newspaper. But Paulette was very, very clear. She knew that a mistake had been made. She knew she was here entirely legally. She'd been working for decades. She'd worked for a while in the House of Commons, in the kitchens there, serving MPs, paying her taxes. She knew she was entirely blameless in all of this. So in the end, she did talk about it. We put a piece in The Guardian explaining how she'd been twice arrested, put in detention for a week and driven to Heathrow ahead of deportation. And there was such outrage from readers about what had happened to her. And also a sudden influx of emails and calls from other people who had experienced been arrested and detained for five weeks

and was also on the brink of being deported back to Jamaica, a country that he had left half a century earlier when he was a child. Glenda, let me bring in Glenda here, Amelia. Glenda, how did you find out that you were considered an illegal immigrant? It was actually while I was in my position as a GP practice administrator that I was asked to leave my job. But I had previously, my mother had passed away in 1998 when she went on holiday to Dominica, the country of my birth. And I was trying to make an application for a passport. Back then you didn't have to submit too many documentations. So when I did make applications, they basically said to me that I wasn't British and it kind of like shocked

me because I've been living in England all my life. I grew up here, was a mother to children born in this country and had no difficulty at all in obtaining employment so it was quite a shock but it wasn't something that I was hasty for me to sort of like try and resolve because I was in a job didn't have no plans about taking any holidays until like you know mommy had passed but then I left it. But the greatest thing was when it affected my son. And I thought, well, the two of us are in the same situation. So my son's born here, but because he's my child with my surname,

it made it difficult for him. But it was it was a horrible situation to go through because you felt as if, like Amelia mentioned, the stigma behind you having to speak to people and say to them, well, you know, they say I'm illegal. In the Caribbean community, we don't reveal, hang out our dirty laundry in public, as you say. So we felt as if we have to hide. And for many years I was hiding, even though in secret,

I'm trying to find out the truth and look up different things on the.gov website to try and regulate my status. How did you manage to find documentation that proved your story? With difficulty. I mean, me and my sister, who, oh, she came here after me. And she had a very old British passport that she travelled over, but I think the picture had been torn out. So we had spent a day down in Kew Gardens trying to obtain information on my father, but we could find nothing on my dad apart from a death certificate

and him and my mother's marriage certificate, but nothing else, even though my father was a homeowner and had bought a house over here even for myself it was it was hard because um it's like they got rid of every school documentation for me um medical document anything that went over 50 oh you can forget that that's gone um so it was really hard but i was lucky enough to um information from I think it was HMRC just in time but they have that they haven't got that information now so I'm told that I'm lucky enough that I had it so I tried to accumulate a lot of things and I'm a paper hoarder if you want through the years of being in

administration I've always sort of like kept hard copies. So there was many things that I did keep. I don't know. Maybe I thought it would come in handy, but I was able to produce certain things to them. But yet that still didn't help. A picture of myself at my mom and dad's wedding, I sent that off when I made an application for a certificate of entitlement to a bird and it got rejected. Even asking for a status letter to say I'm British for myself and my son, that got rejected.

So I had at one stage just lost all hope and thought, well, you know, what am I going to do now? But then the threat of them threatening my son to deport him to where? He doesn't even know Dominica, and I think that made it even worse for me. Now, it has been proved that you do have a perfect right to hear

you are not an illegal immigrant, and you have been offered compensation. Why have you rejected it? I rejected the first offer, which was of £22,000, for over 10 years of loss of employment, impact on life and for when I got detained at the airport for a couple of hours. But that wasn't enough. When you break it down over 10 years, 22,000. Now, I rejected that and said, there's no way you can give me that. That can't even pay off the

debts what accumulated for the times that I weren't able to work the worst thing of it was after being um told I have to leave my job I was offered the employments that I couldn't even take on and all I could do was just look at it and the government has to do a little bit more because they what they got to realize we didn't put ourselves in this position we were quite happy working um and even if we did have debts we were able to manage it on our wages what we knew we would get at the end of the month and now you're putting this put us in a situation and then want to throw you know a phrase that i put together breadcrumbs at us we're not peasants jacqueline i know you are helping a lot of clients, trying to help them with compensation. Now, the Home Office tells us this. The Windrush generation has suffered

unspeakable injustice spanning successive governments over several decades, and they're processing individual compensation schemes as quickly as possible. How do you respond to that? Jacqueline. Jacqueline McKenzie, the lawyer who's helping people. Are you there, Jacqueline? Yes, I'm here. Oh, good. Did you hear my question? Yes, I did. And I started to reply, so I don't know what happened. This is the trouble with this wretched pandemic all these lines and it makes everything very difficult so how do you respond to what the home

yes yes that's that's the idea and I'm certain that there are people in the home office who are trying to do that however that's not what we're finding on the ground that's not the experience I mean one of the big problems with the compensation scheme at the moment is the inordinate delays. You know, we've seen people waiting several months for decisions on very straightforward claims. Now, I accept some of the claims are complex, but I'm also seeing very straightforward ones. Remember, it's a scheme where you can only claim for actual losses. It's not a scheme that says, here's some money because you were treated very badly, and therefore people have to think about how you measure that. It's for actual losses. It's not a scheme that says, here's some money because you were treated very badly. And therefore, people have to think about how you measure that. It's for actual loss. The other big problem is that I've actually submitted some claims. And I think the claims have been very well done, very thorough. We're at the beginning of this exercise. We're putting a

lot of evidence together. A lot of effort is going into this. And then we're getting back responses from the Home Office in one case asking for several bits more evidence. And as Glenda said, you know, some of these documents go back decades. So it's very difficult for people to find it. But even when people do submit evidence, the Home Office is still asking for even more. So it's very complex it's very difficult i'm sure the home office intend to do well and and redress you know provide redress and and and deal with this injustice but i can't say that it's happening at the moment but as far as the amounts are concerned i mean when glenda says she lost all those earnings because she wasn't able to work and was only offered £22,000 and she's rejected it. How likely is she to get enough money to cover her debts, to cover genuine employment losses?

Jacqueline? Oh, Jacqueline, we have got a problem with your line and I'm going to come back to you Glenda and I mean obviously I was quoting the things that you've just said to us there I know you have monthly zoom meetings with home office representatives how useful do you find those it's to be honest it's not really helpful because there's not enough time um and people who are on there wanting to express what they're going through don't have the time to for them to let the home office know look this is me i'm going through this i haven't been able to produce this i haven't been able to produce look, this is me. I'm going through this. I haven't been able to produce this or I

haven't been able to produce that. And this is what people are still complaining about, where they're being asked to find documentation. There's no documentation. We know that there's no documentation, but it's such a simple process because we're living in a world of modern technology. I don't know why these different government departments are not linked together where they can press a button and obtain this information um they know if we owe taxes because the taxman will send us out a letter with a time frame of 28 days or you're going into court but we're not allowed to give the the government or the home office a time frame because they just think that they can keep us dangling and it's so unfair.

I think, Glenda, I've got Jacqueline back. Let me just put to her again the question I tried to put about the amount that's being offered. I don't know, Jacqueline, if you heard Glenda saying that she'd lost 10 years' work and was in debt and had only been offered £22,000, which for 10 years... Yes, no, this is an absolute problem. And I think in the end, a lot of this might well end up in court, which would be unfortunate because people be waiting years for these matters to be resolved.

And they're already quite destitute in many cases. I think there's the issue about properly compensating people for actual losses due to unemployment but there's also a massive issue which I think comes up in Glenda's case and others that I've seen about future loss of earnings future losses of pension contributions and actual pension payments and those aren't factored in so although I think that there's a lot of good things about the scheme there are still problem areas that... Oh, Glenda, we're now losing you. Amelia, are you there? Can you hear me?

Yes, I'm here. Yes, I'm here. When you hear the stories of what's happening now, what do you make of it as the person who really uncovered this story and brought it to public attention? I feel really, really angry and disappointed that now it's two and a half years since we first had an apology from Theresa May and Amber Rudd about the mistakes that they've made. And only 143 people have had compensation payments so far. The government expects around 15,000 people to claim and they expect to pay out as much as 200 million.

But so far, only around a million pounds has been paid out. And the point is that it isn't just about saying that the government is sorry about what happened. A lot of those people affected are in really dire financial difficulties as a direct consequence of the Home Office's mistake. So people who got into rent arrears are still getting eviction notices. So it's incredibly urgent that the compensation scheme gets speeded up, not least because the Home Office itself has admitted that five people have died in the period between submitting their claims and before getting any compensation. And a number of the people that we've interviewed at The Guardian about this problem have sadly died.

Paulette Wilson, as you mentioned, but also Hubert Howard, Sarah O'Connor and Richard Stewart. So it's so urgent that justice is secured quickly for those people affected. I mean, the Home Office tells us that the government is implementing the findings of the Wendy Williams review, which, of course, was conducted by the inspector of constabulary, Wendy Williams. How comforted are you by them saying that? Well, I think we've now had three successive Home Secretaries apologising and two successive prime ministers expressing regret about what happened. And Priti Patel has said absolutely the right thing. She said that she will accept and implement all 30 of the recommendations made by Wendy Williams, who investigated the causes of the scandal. And that commits her to implementing a major programme of cultural

change within the Home Office. It means that she's promised to rectify this culture of disbelief and carelessness within the department and to address the institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness around the issue of race within the Home Office. So what she said is very, very positive. And if it happens, that will be great. But the problem is that at the heart of all of this is a series of bits of legislation known as the hostile environment, now rebranded as the compliant environment and despite all of the apologies none of that legislation has been repealed it all remains in in place and there isn't yet any suggestion um that the government wants to kind of um remove

that that policy Amelia gentlemen Amelia we'll have to stop there. Amelia, gentlemen, Glenda Caesar and Jacqueline McKendie, thank you all very much indeed for being with us this morning. And Glenda and Jacqueline, so sorry about the way the technology has served us so far this morning. Still to come in today's programme, waiting your right to anonymity. Why do some women choose to reveal their identity as victims of a sex crime? What do they gain and what do they lose? And of course, the serial, the final episode of Things Fall Apart. Jess Gillum and her saxophone were said to have been the indisputable highlight of the last night of the problems two years ago. She was only 20 years old.

Her first album, Rise, reached number one in the UK classical music chart. She has her own weekly programme on Radio 3 and a podcast, This Classical Life, and a new album, Time. This is part of Orbit from the new album.... Just what inspired this new album? It was inspired really by the passing of time and the constant orbits that we all find ourselves in as humans and definitely as musicians around the world. And this idea of being stuck in a constant cycle and sometimes not realising that we're in that and that we need a place to get away from that sometimes.

What has lockdown meant for you as a musician? It's been a very, very strange time. Obviously, not being able to play to live audiences, which is what I live for, has been devastating. And to see the impact on the industry has been really, really devastating. But I've tried to do as many virtual and positive projects as possible throughout the lockdown. So it's been very strange. What sort of things have you been doing?

I set up a virtual scratch orchestra. So we had nearly 2,000 people over the two projects who sent in videos from around the world of them playing a particular piece and then we wove them all together to make a world orchestra really. How easy was that to do? I didn't expect the uptake and the interest that there was. I think there was just such a hunger for being involved in a collective and being a part of something bigger than just your own instrument and your own practice, which is the amazing thing about music, the idea of the collective and the community. So it was much more difficult than I anticipated, but it was just the most heartwarming project in the world.

Now, I know you were only 20 when you were so lauded at the last night of the proms what's been the result of all the praise you got for that to be honest I try not to to listen to the praise because I always want to be improving and I always want to to feel as though I think with music and also just in life, there's always a way to improve and to look for new ways of reaching people and engaging people. So I try and not focus on it too much and just improve and practice and get better. What led you to the saxophone in the first place? It was my dad he taught drums at a carnival band in Cumbria where I'm from the Barracudas Carnival Centre and I tried everything else that was on offer stilts, dance, drums and came to saxophone when I was seven and just

completely fell in love with it. Why? What did you fall in love with? The sound as soon as I picked it up I made a sound and I can still remember it so vividly now. And just the intensity and the impact of it, it kind of hit my whole body as an experience. And then everything was related to joy in the Carnival Band. It was all about sharing music with people, being part of a community created this explosion of colour. So it was really fun at age seven to be part of a band created this explosion of colour. So it was just, it was really fun at, you know, age seven

to be part of a band was just brilliant. Now, you've brought colour to your professional career as well. Big boots, glitter, if I remember rightly. What impact did your age, the look, have on the classical music audience, do you think? I think maybe I'm not so conventional in the classical world, but I think the instrument that I play, the saxophone, isn't necessarily a conventional classical instrument.

It was invented much later than instruments like the violin or the piano and kind of grew up and has its roots and some of its history in jazz. And so in a way, it doesn't have such a conventional history itself as an instrument. So it's quite, I think, suited that neither do I have such a conventional look. And they clearly loved it, I think think all of that flash that you managed to present and how important has the radio three program and the podcast been to you it's been i've really really loved uh presenting that just because i really love talking to people and i really love finding out different people's stories and about

the role that music plays in different people's lives and the impact that it can it can have so I've really and it's also meant that I've been able to listen to so many different styles and types of new music so it's been really brilliant. So what have you learned as a result of doing it i've learned that i think that you know music is just the most powerful thing in the world i think the way that it can really change somebody's life it can really provide them with a way of life and a way of living and a sense of hope and solace especially in in times of of difficulties that we find ourselves in now it can be a place to escape to it can be a place to be enriched to be transported by and I think it's just really driven home to me the idea of music being such an integral part of our society. I think there's evidence that quite a

lot of people during this period where they've had to spend a lot of time at home and in some cases alone at home people have been thinking oh well actually now is the time to learn an instrument or now is the time to perfect my reading of music which I've never been able to do before what sort of advice do you give to people who are in that state and wanting to make more of their own musical talent i think for me it's often to listen to as many different types of music as possible to find the music that you love and to find the music that resonates with you so that then you can play that music and and translate that joy to your instrument and bring it to your instrument and also i think it's it's little and often with practice I think

is the best way to go rather than two hours once a week just even 10 minutes a day the building up muscle memory and building up stamina I would say little and often. And as you've been listening to a whole range of different types of music which music has had the most impression on you as you've been learning from doing your programme? Obviously lots of different types of classical music, which is the main core of the programme. But then also a lot of folk music and music from history

and how that's defined humanity in a way, how we've been able to share some of our experience as humans through music and that that can show us and connect us with a time and a place that we never experienced, that we never lived in. And also Soul and Motown. I really love Soul and Motown now. Jess Gillam, thank you very much indeed

for being with us this morning. Best of luck with the new album. Thanks a lot. Thank you so much. Now at the beginning of this month you may have come across the story of Emily Hunt. She was filmed when she was asleep in an hotel room. A man was convicted of voyeurism but it took her several years to secure that conviction and Emily decided to waive her right to anonymity in order to fight the case. But what do you gain and what do you lose as a result of revealing your identity? Well, Leona O'Callaghan also waived her right to anonymity when the man who abused her as a child

was on trial and convicted. Rebecca, not her real name, does not want us to know who she really is. She's pressing the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute a man who she says attacked and raped her. They and Emily are with us. Emily, why did you decide to go public? I think I very much needed something to come out of what happened to me. And I had expected that it would be fought in a straightforward way through the criminal justice system. So from the very beginning, when the police didn't take my case seriously, and the CPS declined to prosecute, I kept asking them to reconsider and asking and asking. And when eventually I just had no path forward within sort of the normal pathway in the criminal justice

system, I had to sit down and think about how important it was to me for there to be a measure of justice. And unfortunately, what I came up with was that I needed help paying for lawyers. And in order to do that, I was going to have to crowdfund. And if I was going to crowdfund, I was going to have to speak out. Leona, what made you make that decision? For me, I think it was that I wasn't the first for him to be prosecuted with. And others hadn't waived their anonymity. And I completely understand why but I suppose I just wanted people to know his face I wanted you know 10 years can can go

and 15 years can can fly by and I wanted mothers and parents to know who he was and what he's done and what he's capable of so that when they recognize him that um that i suppose they they would keep be able to to keep their children safe um and and know what he's i suppose what his his mindset might be because people like this they rely on silence and when you take away that silence you you really disable them and you disable their power and so speaking out for me was taking my power back you know but how hard was it to make that decision and think everybody is going to know who I am and what happened to me it was a process it wasn't even a decision it's not like you sit down and you make that choice once you make it every day for a while after you make it

because you second-guess yourself. For me, the hardest part was the effect it might have on my children because you lose control, and for any survivor of abuse or rape, having control, I suppose, is really important to us, and not knowing what will be published, not knowing when, not knowing the spin it would take it and and I suppose media times you know that it's sensationalized in ways that my children

would would be hurt to read it you know um so it was for me a decision that I needed to make with them they were they were different ages um some of them were older uh I have three kids so I think from 10 um until about 18 and for me it was it was making the decision around well was it okay for all of us was it the right decision for for the four of us you know. How did the children cope with it? They coped just so well I mean I they were the only people I listened to when I when I when I made that decision I sat down with them and I told them um that I suppose I wouldn't be in control of of the detail that that uh would be spoken about and uh it was it was pretty horrific like what happened to me happened in a graveyard um the rapes happened in a graveyard so you know

that they're they're quite scary images that nobody wants to give their children and I suppose for me it was a case of not wanting that that memory to be in their minds because it had haunted me for long enough however unfortunately they had already been affected by what how he had affected me because they met their mom a sick mom for for quite some time so you'd suffered from depression hadn't you for a long time i had i'd suffered with depression and when he came back to the area i lived in i had slipped in my in my mental health and i had made a couple of um when i found out about another little girl that he was he was convicted of um

she was only six and i i had a couple of suicide attempts and very serious ones i went into hospital for about six months i just couldn't cope i couldn't cope with um seeing him on the street and i couldn't cope with um the memories that came flooding back as flashbacks so um so they had already paid a high price but they were so good about it they all they were all on the same page and they said no mom what he did to you was very very wrong and he deserves to be named and he deserves to feel ashamed and you did nothing wrong so um you know it's it's really important that others know what he's like and that if he ever does come out of jail that he's known for for what he does to children um i was so proud of them because that was a very um i suppose brave

thing that for them to decide because obviously they have friends and they have insecurities like all other teens and children and it was very mature of them so together the four of us decided let's do this and yeah there's been cost to it in the sense

of the side of you know the private details, I suppose, that you like your victim impact statement and things like that, that would pay a price. But I've also shown them resilience. And I've shown my children the ability to bounce back. I've shown them the ability to get over something as horrible as it is

and to move on and not let it define you and that you can still have an amazing life you know rebecca if i can bring you in here why have you chosen to remain anonymous um i think the first thing i'd say is huge kudos and respect to those who do waive their anonymity um for me i was attacked by a very violent man with um a a past um who's uh he's got a history of violence severe violence against women um i am to this day still petrified that he may make an appearance in my life so if i was to start speaking out and he saw that then i would be concerned for my own safety. He knows where I live. I'd be concerned for, you know, the protection of my family.

And he did threaten me that if I ever told anybody what he would do. And, you know, I still live with that fear. So also the police can offer me no protection. He would have to actually come and attack me for anything to happen. I have no protection. And as we know, I am fighting the CPS because they dropped the charges against him. I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of women in that situation. So I have no protection if I were to speak out.

And he is somebody that is vindictive. What has been the impact of your family? I mean, obviously the people close to you will know about this. How have they been affected by it, even though your name is not in the public arena? It impacts everybody. You know, I, for a couple of years, you know, after trying to cope and process what's happened, you're not functioning properly. So, you know, you know, it's it has an impact not just on me, but everybody that's around me. I think I was in probably, you know, a bit like a zombie, not able to fully engage with life. Also, my parents were witnesses in the prosecution.

Trying, you know, having to explain to your parents what's happened to you is the most heartbreaking thing. Now, I have been able to access brilliant trauma therapy through my employers. I know I'm the one that i that was directly impacted by that attack but it's the ripple effect of everybody else um they've had no no no support other than each other and it it tears families apart by i mean my dad's heartbroken um so huge impact emily what about you what What's been the impact on your family of what happened to you being in the public arena? It's gone a couple of different ways with both family and friends. So I'm also a mother.

My daughter is 10, and this is not a conversation that we have had yet. She knows that mummy is trying to put more criminals in jail. She doesn't really understand the hows or the whys. She's really proud of me and is always proud of me, particularly when I speak out, because she knows that I find doing press to be a bit difficult, but also that I find it to be really important. My mom and one of my sisters have been super supportive, but some other family members have just simply not understood why this is so important to me and why I had to pursue it. Because look, at the end of the day, there's a direct path for me

between waiving my anonymity, speaking in public, raising the profile of what happened to me to the video itself, the act of taking a video of somebody naked without their permission became completely illegal earlier this year because of my case and that is the thing that I am absolutely proudest of um so in waving my anonymity I've been able to change the world a little bit and both you and Leona are now single, but I think have dated. How, I'm sorry, you laughed so I kind of followed you because it's not funny. How has it affected potential relationships? I mean, I have had messages of support on one of the dating websites. Not an offer of a date, mind you, but somebody who said that they had given money to one of my crowdfunding campaigns.

Look, it's complicated stuff. It makes people feel uncomfortable whether they don't understand or they think you've made too much of a big deal of it or they think you haven't made enough of a big deal of it. You know, unfortunately, victims are judged on so many levels. And I think it just makes it really complicated to get to know someone when you have a Google profile like I do. So Rebecca and I are friends. And I put something out on Facebook last week saying, look, please, somebody set me up with somebody, you know, online dating is never going to work for me, because I have a Google problem. And people just don't don't get it. You know, I need somebody to introduce me to someone because it's a complicated story. And I'm a real person. And I can't really be summed up on an online

profile to be I doubt anybody. Leona, what about you? How have you fared in maybe managing to make another relationship oh i completely agree with emily it's a bloody mess it really is like it's just a bit of a nightmare it's um like that i've tried the online dating and it all goes well but it's like do you say it beforehand do you wait because let's be honest on online like everybody googles people so you put in my name and it comes straight up and I what it basically boils down to is anybody that's going to be able to to to be in any sort of an intimate relationship with me needs to be a very strong character a strong character to be able to know that there's a big difference between rape and sex um a strong

character to know that just because they're attracted to somebody who was sexually assaulted doesn't mean that there's something wrong with it which is literally what one guy said he said what's what's wrong with me to say that you know i wanna i i'd love to take your clothes off and yet i know your history do you know it feels wrong and I suppose you like that you're just for me to meet somebody um who would be compatible with me I'd need them firstly to understand that my sense of safety is massive and that if I need to stop at any time that's okay and that can be hard it could be hard for any bloke and secondly um that they need to have a lot of work done on themselves not to because I have I have issues I on themselves not to, because I have issues.

I'm not great at relationships. I have trust issues. I don't necessarily react in the way that people that haven't been sexually assaulted would react when it comes to men. It's affected me in loads of ways. So when I do meet somebody, it'll have to be somebody that's a strong character and has done a lot of work on themselves to know that you know that that it can work you know because I've been married twice and it's affected both relationships. Rebecca having listened to Emily and Leona I suspect you might be relieved that you have retained your anonymity certainly in area. But might you change your mind, especially if you thought it might help you secure charges?

Oh, it's a really difficult one because it's not just about me. It's about everybody else impacts. And I echo what Emily said. There are people who react really well and step forward and support you hugely when you do tell them, when you do disclose. And there are people that don't, friends and family. And I've experienced that with people that I have disclosed to. So, yeah, it's really difficult in terms of would I ever waive my anonymity. I just have to wait and see, you know, how things pan out with the CPS and everything. It's not a decision i could make lightly so very briefly to emily do you have any deep regrets about doing it emily

i do of course i do it has colored every aspect of my life since i first went public about three and a half years ago but at the end of the, this man would not be a convicted sex offender and on the sex registry if I hadn't. And that outweighs all of the negative to my personal and professional life in such a big way. But that was my choice and what I needed to heal. I was talking to Emily Hunt, Leona O'Callaghan and Rebecca. Now on that question of waiving your rights to anonymity, someone who does not want us to use her name said, I'm the mother of two girls, one 16, who was assaulted in year 11 of school by a boy in her class, held hostage and orally and digitally raped. And my 21 year old in the third year of university. My eldest is currently

recovering from terrible injuries after being raped and thrown down a flight of stairs by a fellow student. We don't know if she will return to university where she was doing so amazingly well. I myself was groomed and assaulted by a neighbour when I was 11. My 16-year-old has had terrible treatment by the police as she was so traumatised she couldn't speak. They took no clothes, samples, etc. and frightened her so much about the court process, saying she would be called a liar in front of others, dwelling on this for the majority of the contact with her,

that she couldn't make a statement. Evidence was lost and the police will not submit the case to the CPS. My complaint was lost for months. The boy openly brags about it in our community and my beautiful daughter has tried to take her own life on three occasions. She's been the victim of horrendous cyberbullying by boys. He remained in her class for the school year and as such she missed year 11 and was denied her education. Not qualifying for the out-of-school provision until I contacted directly the director of education. Your programme and these brave women help so many people. It's given me the strength to recontact the police this morning.

Judith said, what brave women. Thanks to them all for talking on the programme, from Rebecca challenging the CPS and living in fear, to Emily and Leona, who are continuing to fight for women's right to be safe. Please say thank you to them from me. I was so moved and encouraged by their contributions. On the Windrush generation, Judith said, My neighbour, a British citizen from British Guiana,

came as a child on her British citizen parents' passport, lived here 50 years, then made illegal by Jack Straw in 1999. All except one of her five daughters also declared illegal and had to apply for citizenship. In 2018, all gained it except her daughter with learning needs. They're all in their 30s, 40s, spent over £25,000 to date on this. She's lived a very uncertain life for more than two decades now. So, so cruel. And worse, she will not apply for compensation or help as she fears she will still be deported. Yep, I lost it thinking about how she's been treated

because she is black British. And then Richard, again on the Windrush, said, Dear Woman's Hour, should not the Home Office be renamed the Go Home Office? Well, thank you for all your contributions this morning. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. You can hear Mary McAleese, who was twice President of Ireland, on Living Through the Troubles and speaking out against the Catholic Church. The actor Shobhna Gulati on her memoir about caring for her mother with dementia.

And of course, the Woman's Hour Power List 2020, Our Planet, launched this week. That's all. Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow at four o'clock. Bye bye. My father-in-law lived alone. Everybody knew it. Late afternoon in the high plains of South Africa, a bloody encounter and a chase. If you attack on a farm, your chances of surviving is not good. In a community stalked by fear and racial tensions, an explosion of violence puts a family on trial. What did they do so bad to get that beating? Bloodlands, presented by me, Andrew Harding, is available on BBC Sounds.

Just search for Bloodlands and download all five episodes now. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.