Woman's Hour - The Woman’s Hour Election Debate 2019

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

With us this morning are five leading women from political parties, ready to debate the issues that are important to you in this General Election. We want to hear from you. If you’d like to ask a question you can call us on 03700 100 444. And on social media you can join the debate on twitter @bbcwomanshour using the hashtag #whdebate. Or you can email us via the website. Jane Garvey will be putting those questions to Helen Whately, Minister for Arts, Heritage and Tourism and Conservative Candidate; Laura Pidcock, Shadow Secretary for Employment Rights and Labour Party candidate for Durham North West; Dr Sarah Wollaston, Liberal Democrat candidate, Deidre Brock, candidate for the Scottish National Party and Belinda de Lucy, Brexit Party MEP for South East England.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It is. Good morning. It's the Woman's Hour election 19 debate. We're live until 11.30 this morning and we want your involvement. The number to call 03700 100 444. Get involved on social media too. Twitter at BBC Woman's Hour. Instagram as well at BBC Women's Hour. And you can use the hashtag WHDebate. Now my guest this morning,

Helen Waitley, Minister for the Arts, Heritage and Tourism and Conservative candidate for Faversham and Mid Kent. We've got Laura Pidcock here, Shadow Secretary for Employment Rights, Labour Party candidate for Durham North West. And Dr. Sarah Wollaston is a Liberal Democrat candidate in Totnes and in Edinburgh studio, Deirdre Brock, candidate for the Scottish National Party. And Belinda De Lucy is with us too, Brexit Party MEP for South East England. Of course, if you go to the BBC website, you'll find all the candidates for all the constituencies in the general election of 2019. 03 700 100 444. We're live. We want you to join in. And we're here until 1130 this morning.

And we're going to start with a point made earlier by somebody who contacted the programme and made it clear she would not be listening. She's Margaret in Newcastle. No point me saying hello to Margaret. She's turned off. Why are you putting this on? I have followed all the election coverage and I don't believe that any member of your panel will answer any questions and I don't believe they'll be truthful. So a lack of trust, that really does seem to be a prevailing theme. So I'm going to ask everybody if they can just guarantee that this morning we're going to have a sisterly atmosphere, first of all, and we are going to listen and there will be disagreement, but it'll be carried out in an atmosphere of respect.

Is that right? Yes. Absolutely. Okay, and that goes for you too, Deirdre. Deirdre, good morning. Yes, of course, morning. Yeah, Deirdre in Edinburgh. So she can't make eye contact with me,

but I promise I'm going to make sure she gets a fair crack of the whip. Thank you very much for completing that sentence. 03700100444. Let's go to a couple of callers who both want to talk about social care. And Sarah is, first of all, in Torquay. Sarah, good morning to you. Yes, good morning. Tell me about your situation. Well,

I just wanted to flag up the huge challenges of social care and to ask the panel, I don't expect them to solve it by any means, but to ask the panel A, how much of a priority will it be, realistically,

so don't tell me it's top priority because you've got other things to think about. And how would you set about, you know, addressing the challenge because it's absolutely enormous. I've seen it grow. So those two points to keep it brief. OK, thank you very much. You have been a social worker, haven't you?

Yes, I have, yes, for a long time. So I do know the system. And I don't think it's probably changed in terms of the mechanics but i'm sure the volume of people is just more and more and more since i retired thank you for that um ian is in glasgow and ian your mom is is 89 and in a care home yes so to my question is particularly to Deirdre Brock from SNP we hear Nicholas Durden continually talking

about her progressive policies which they've already delivered which let's say Labour are promising like free travel and various things like that university care sorry university question so my mother just last week had to enter care we come from a council house

background, not wealthy by any means, but obviously my mother and father worked hard and managed to put a little bit of money by and she's a little two bedroom flat. I'm going to have to sell the flat, use all of our money to pay for her care over the next few years. I'd love to look to know what SNP

would do. It depends what better, what are they going to do for us? Right. Some issues, of course, are devolved. And Deirdre Brock, then, what would you say to Ian? Well, look, yes, absolutely. There are still residential costs for some of those who require residential care. I realise this is more consolation here, but, I mean, in a way,

but the level at which individuals have to make payments are higher than in England and the cap is lower. So it does mean that older people are less likely to be hit with bills they can't afford and no one needs to sell their home up front. While I can't give you assurances at the moment about your personal situation, I would just point out too

that we do have free personal care for the elderly. That was introduced in 2002 and we've extended that free personal care to all those under 65 who need it. And in terms of that particular issue, I can't give any sort of greater points on that. But I mean, it is partly devolved and partly... It is partly devolved and not entirely.

However, this is a massive issue, I imagine, for our audience in particular. It's something we often discuss on the programme. Helen Waitley of the Conservatives, your Prime Minister said on the steps of Downing Street that there was a plan all ready to go on social care. Whatever happened to that? I mean, first of all, picking up on Sarah's question. And as you've just said, it's an absolutely huge issue. But you were supposed to have a plan to tackle it. And one that we know particularly affects women who are often playing the main caring role in any family.

And Boris Johnson said he already had something ready to go. And what Boris Johnson has said during this election campaign is actually the importance of us having some kind of cross-party consensus on social care. This is such a big challenge facing our country and our society. Just as we achieved a cross-party consensus on the NHS in the 1940s, now we need to have a cross-party consensus on the NHS in the 1940s. Now we need to have a cross-party consensus on social care so we can come together so it doesn't go back and forth between different political parties and different governments trying to reverse each other's policies,

but actually get to a point where we can properly fund it in a sustainable way. And one thing we are saying is underpinning all that is our position is that we don't want anyone to have to sell their home to pay for care. No, but he hasn't explained how that's going to be achieved and in answer to Margaret's initial point, Margaret is not listening but might feature quite heavily in the programme, she wanted straight answers. She didn't think she was going to get any and Boris Johnson did say there was a plan for this and we have yet to hear what that plan is. So I mean a huge amount of work has been done including for instance the famous Dilnot review on how better to fund social care but to think of it as to give Sarah a straight answer to her question and she wants to know is it a

priority no yes absolutely it is but we want to make sure that we do it properly and have that cross-party consensus so we have a stable, long-term approach to providing social care. Laura Pidcock then for Labour. What's your answer to social care? So we see lots of things going on and especially from the employment rights point of view. We know that a privatised social care system has led to the degradation of terms and conditions

for those social care workers. I am committed as a shadow secretary for employment rights to implementing a system of sectoral collective bargaining. You might wonder well why is that relevant to social care? Well social care will be one of those first sectors to come forward for a national agreement that looks at the pay terms and conditions of those social care workers. And make it a more attractive employment proposition. Absolutely that but also to make sure that those social care providers aren't actually paying below the national minimum wage. You know, there's people that I've seen their rotas, whether on call from 7 in the morning until 11 at night, doing highly complex personal care work. They're not allowed to take up any other form of employment in that time, but they're not paid between visits and they're not paid mileage.

That takes them below the minimum rate of pay so we are saying to improve quality of care as well as obviously that the actual care that you are entitled yes but what about you have to fix the terms and conditions of workers in that sector got that and many people would have huge sympathy for the people willing to do really difficult work often under time constraints as well but what about those people who may well have saved very very hard through their life given up stuff they've seen other people doing and then they find at the end of their life that they have to sell their property i know so we're saying that there'd be a cap on the catastrophic care costs so that nobody would have to sell their home

a hundred thousand pounds we know that this is one first step on a path to a national care service. But I really hope that people understand the magnitude of what I've just said about sectoral collective bargaining and organise and bisector the terms and conditions of those workers. Because it is an absolute scandal, a mainly female workforce. Of course, there are men working in it and that they do not have even the minimum rights enforced there's very little scrutiny of some of those spoke about the cross-party consensus consensus would you be willing to work with the conservatives and the liberal democrats and the smp and everybody else in order to sort this problem out of course i mean you know there's the we we have to be you know very very serious about what is taking place here there's nothing

that we wouldn't do to try and sort this out. I just have to say, though, that there has been a huge... Because politics, of course, underpins all of this, and in the most sisterly way possible. Privatisation has been an unmitigated disaster in the social care sector. We see thousands of different, very small operations, sometimes with very little scrutiny over what they do. Of course, there are some absolutely magnificent ones with very, very good terms and conditions for their workers. But if we

look at the end, what kind of care are people receiving? Very often it is connected with the terms and conditions of workers. All right. Sarah Wollaston, the Lib Dems, do they have a big idea on social care? I'm not sure they do, do they? Well, we have a big idea on health and social care, which is to introduce a penny increase in income tax to actually provide some immediate relief. But what I would say is I chaired the Health and Social Care Select Committee in the last Parliament, and we held a joint inquiry with another select committee and commissioned assistance assembly to look at how we address this. And many of us went to see Theresa May and asked her if she would do that in the last Parliament, bring forward a cross-party approach to address this extraordinary challenge.

It's about funding and it's about workforce. We've got a turnover in the workforce of around 40%. And we also have a report out today from the Nuffield Trust that makes it clear the impact of Brexit on this, because if the social care sector is no longer able to easily access EU workforce or puts unreasonable charges and barriers I'm afraid this situation is going to get much much worse it's a really desperate situation. Well high time we heard then from Belinda De Lucy of the Brexit if you don't mind just to get Belinda into the conversation Sarah makes the point about the

workforce what would happen to the wonderful women and men from all over Eastern Europe who wipe the bottoms of Britain's elderly people every day? We're not pulling up the drawbridge here. We're not stopping people from coming in and working and helping. Well, you're not exactly welcoming them, are you? Well, that's your interpretation. I'm afraid I see it very differently. Of course, we welcome people and want people and are grateful for people across the world, no matter whether they come from the EU or from India or from Australia to come and help and give their skills and services to the country. We support that entirely. All we are saying is in terms of numbers is that we need to make sure that we have the infrastructure to cope with the amount of people that need the schooling and the doctors and all the services that an increased population needs. That's what we're saying. I think it's wrong to represent us as anti-immigration. Really briefly, Sarah. I think it's going to add hugely to the costs and the barriers. And I think the other point is that back in 2014, Parliament

legislated past the CARE Act, which would have brought in a threshold and a cap, but it's never been enacted by the Conservatives. And I think it is extraordinary to hear the Prime Minister saying that he wants no one to sell their home. He could have done that already. It's been a total failure. I think, can I just make the point about local authority funding as well? Because it's very important that local authorities after you know millions of pounds have been taken out of their budget what that does to the procurement of services and what standards are available in those contracts because if it's a race to the bottom in terms of service delivery because you're looking for well yes part part of the qualification might be about quality of service

but it's about who can deliver that within budget and there have been such huge cuts to social care that sometimes does degrade the quality of service. Thank you Laura we just want to bring in the listeners Hillary on Twitter says nothing will improve with social care until the health and social care systems are fully integrated something that I know everybody's been battling with for many decades. Poverty is something people want to talk about and this was a question put very succinctly by Andrew on email. He just says, why are poor people poor in the UK today? And that's a question echoed by our next caller. Celia is in Haringey.

Good morning to you, Celia. Good morning. What do you want to say? Well, I want to find out from the parties what they're planning to do to tackle the growing levels of child poverty and homelessness. So we know there's 4.1 million children living in poverty currently, and the IFS have said that will rise to 5 million unless measures are taken to tackle it.

And there was a report out this week saying 135,000 children in Britain are homeless and living in pre-accommodation. I see, and you are a former teacher? I'm a former teacher and I'm just seeing increasingly children whose families can't manage, they're having to access food banks and, you know, the situation is really dire now

for many, many families in the UK. The viewer for Celia in Haringey, thank you Celia. Elsewhere in London, in Wimbledon, Jenny Celia in Haringey. Thank you, Celia. Elsewhere in London, in Wimbledon, Jenny. Jenny, good morning to you. Oh, good morning. Now, you also want to talk about child poverty. Yes.

Sarah, sorry, it is Sarah Wollaston, isn't it? Yes, she is a Liberal Democrat now. Yes, she is, yes. But she was part of the Tory government that led to the Health and Social Care Act and part of the coalition. And as a doctor, your policies led to 4 million children in poverty, reputed to be rising to 5 million. As a doctor, I'm surprised that you supported these changes. Is this going to be a return to Victorian days?

Thank you, Jenny. Well, let's start with you, Sarah. You were, indeed, Jenny's absolutely right. Indeed, and it is the failure in the letter that was written to the Prime Minister when I resigned from the Conservative Party, I made it clear that one of the reasons for that was the failure to tackle the burning injustices, which you can argue from within a political party, but ultimately the elastic stretch is so thin, you just have to say, I cannot stick with this. And I'm very pleased that within the Liberal Democrats, in fact, the Resolution Foundation has said that the Liberal Democrats' policies would do most to help the poorest households.

And we're proposing that we should scrap the two-child limit and we should scrap the benefits cap and that we'd be cutting the waiting time for universal credit from five weeks to five days and also reverse the cuts to the work allowances within universal credit. Just to go back to the listener's point, how do you view your time in that government now? Do you regret it all? I do. I think the point is that the Conservative Party used to be a broad church

and I was to the left of the Conservative Party. But you joined it. Indeed. And when I joined the Conservative Party back in 2009, there was a very clear commitment from David Cameron that he was going to tackle these issues. And as I say, within a political party, if you're towards the centre of it, and I know this goes for Labour MPs

who are in the centre of the Labour Party, you're arguing your position as much as you can, but then there comes a point when you feel, actually, all I'm doing here is propping up some policies which I think are harmful. So I did rebel on a key vote on universal credit. I was the only Conservative to do so. And you do argue your point. But as I say, in the end, you have to take the view, if you feel that's the case, that you're not actually being successful in changing policy.

So therefore, you then just have to say enough is enough. I do not believe this Conservative Party is going to be a one nation party. Sarah Wollaston wrestled with her conscience and left. Helen Waitley, you're a member of the Conservative Party and you're a junior minister. Why are people in Britain poor? I mean, just picking up on the Conservative... Just why might they be?

On the Conservative Party point, I mean, I truly believe myself to be a One Nation Conservative and care deeply, deeply about exactly is through work. And there are fewer children in workless households now. And then we're also helping wages go up and supporting working parents with children. But in really simple statistical terms, I think the figure is 2,000 food banks set up in the last decade. Why? Well, we know that under Prue's Labour government,

they basically wouldn't allow referrals to food banks. So now we do let food banks do... I'll bring you in, Laura. Hang on. And food banks are providing really important, doing an important thing. But we don't want to continue to see food banks having to support families. We want people to have more money in their pockets. That's one reason why we've got the national living wage and why that's going up to £10.50. Because unfortunately, lots of women are on relatively low wages so that's been really important it's already been boosting wages for

women but we want to do more of that so that there's more money in people's pockets keep clearly taxes low that's really important so that you can afford to put food on the table you're a sensible person and i'm sure a sensitive one too that there's a food bank in your constituency isn't it i mean it's a pretty why why is there a food bank in your constituency, isn't there? I mean, it's a pretty... Why? Why is there a food bank? Why are over a million food parcels being handed out in one of the richest economies on this planet? I've spent time in my food bank and trying to understand the individual reasons for people going there.

They're often really complicated. Sometimes it's to do with complications around benefits. It's not that uncomplicated, is it, really? Well, sometimes people's situations are complicated with family breakup. Or, for instance, sometimes they're just not being paid enough. They're in work. And in-work poverty is absolutely something we should be concerned about. And we want to see wages going up so that people don't have to suffer.

The other big problem we have as a society is the cost of housing. And the cost of housing has been going up. I don't doubt we'll get society is the cost of housing. And the cost of housing has been going up. I don't doubt we'll get on to the cost of housing. For many years, not enough houses were built. So we're trying to build houses so that people's housing costs are lower. I don't think the record on building houses has been terrific either, to be honest. We could come to that. Well, hopefully we will.

03700 100 444 if you want to get involved. I will come to Laura Pickock in a moment. But Deidre, listening in Edinburgh from the SNP, what about food bank use in Scotland? Well, actually, I'm just going to quote a figure from the Trussell Trust. They say they gave out over 210,000 food parcels in Scotland last year. But, I mean, I hear Helen, frankly, defending or trying to defend the indefensible. The Trussell Trust itself cites Tory welfare reforms that include universal credit, benefit sanction and the benefits freeze as a key driver of that food bank use.

In terms of what the Scottish Government is trying to do about it, I mean, we would be urging the UK Government to follow our lead in introducing benefits that do reduce child poverty. We have the new Scottish child payment, which for those families that qualify is going to be made by Christmas of 2020. That is a practical benefit that will lift 30,000 children out of poverty once that's fully rolled out. And we would also call on the UK government to match our ambition on child poverty

by reintroducing UK-wide child poverty targets because they repealed, the UK government repealed large parts of the Child Poverty Act 2010 that included income-based child poverty targets. And we would also ask them to follow our lead on setting up a Poverty and Inequality Commission because to follow our lead on setting up a poverty and inequality commission because the commission that we've set up actually provides Scottish ministers with

independent advice on poverty and inequality and it's an invaluable development. I mean we don't want to paint Scotland as some sort of idyll under the SOP because that wouldn't be right. I mean we know for example that targets are being missed in the NHS that there have been real problems at the Children's Hospital in Glasgow for example and that you have a missed in the NHS, that there have been real problems at the children's hospital in Glasgow,

for example, and that you have a shocking death rate through drugs and public health is a massive issue for Scotland. These are things that we are trying very hard to address. And in terms of the situation in the hospital in Edinburgh, for example, that's certainly something that our health minister has got to grips with very quickly. She's called for a public... She's arranging a public inquiry into those issues. No, of course it's not.

But one of the, I mean, the Trussell Trust says itself, it's UK government policies like universal credit and the benefit sanctions that have got people so terrified when they come to the surgeries I've held over the last few years that you know many of them aren't even wanting to go for assessment to see if they can improve the amounts of money that they get on benefits these are disabled people so terrified they don't even want to go to those assessments that is wrong of course of course that's wrong and nobody I don't think anybody around the table or any any voter would want that kind of situation right no fair enough Deidre thank you Laura Pigcock, I think you're intending as a party to end food bank use or try to end it. I don't know whether you're trying to give me a big lesson in self-restraint here today,

but I was itching all the way along. Well, you haven't explained how you're going to end food bank use. So I'm just about to. Go on. You know, the Liberal Democrats were co-authors of austerity there have been no um no attempts by any of the other parties to talk about how they would eradicate in-work poverty you're quite right in talking about nine million people currently in poverty in work and households that's four over four million children in households so we have to look at a few things

we have to look at um the minimum hourly have to look at the minimum hourly rate of pay and making sure that that lifts people out of poverty and not entrenches poverty so we think that rapidly moving a £10 as quickly as we can get that through parliament not by the end of a parliament and then there should be recalculations on the minimum hourly rate of pay and guaranteed hours because as you know one of the main things that leads people it's not like you know not mismanaging budgets it's about not being able to plan over the certainty of income that they get so we are saying that we would ban zero hour contracts that we would make it a right that people have in their contracts minimum guaranteed hours that reflect what they have

on average been working so they can plan so that cancelled shifts are paid for. All of these things that bring an element of certainty. You know, 19,000 food parcels were handed out in County Durham. This idea that that is an individualised problem, of course there's thousands of food parcels handed out across the nations. This idea that that's an individualised problem is absolute nonsense. This is a structural problem with the embedding of poverty pay and we need to move to a more organized system for the economy and i keep coming back to sectoral collective bargaining by the way i mean sectoral

collective bargaining doesn't exactly trip off the tongue for most people what is it i know so so this is the idea that by so i'm so glad you asked me by sector that um we are saying that there are a process of negotiations for terms and conditions for sectors. Basically, it means pay rises for everybody. I mean, how is that going to be achieved? What it means is that rather than terms, conditions and fundamentally pay being imposed on people, that that's a process of negotiation. And then that is binding upon that sector. So you want the solutions for in-work poverty. Lots of countries that have taken people out of that relative poverty have this system where there is a negotiation about a value for the job,

about how much people are paid, but also the uplift in the minimum rate of pay and certainty over hours is absolutely crucial. Helen Waitley, you can answer Laura Pigcock first of all, but also a lot of people are wanting to hear about child poverty and how you can possibly defend some of the decisions made around universal credit, for example. But first of all, just respond to what Laura said.

One thing I think is overall actually with what Laura said, but also with Labour's manifesto and offer at this election is the problem is that it might sound lovely having all this money spent on tons of things but none of this is any good if you destroy the economy in the process, if you go on a reckless spending spree, if you have to

put on tons of taxes, if you're borrowing loads more, if businesses, if investment leaves the country and actually then the problem is that you had a great ambition. The reality is much more poverty, many more people out of work and many more children poorer as a result.

And here comes the defence of the status quo. That's what we've seen before every single time with previous Labour governments have left the country worse off. So we've had to make some really difficult, very difficult decisions. But the Conservative government, make some really difficult, and it's a difficult decision. Well, the Conservative government, the coalition government between 2010 and 2015.

Let me just finish my sentence because you are interrupting me and then I will, I will absolutely, Laura. But unfortunately, Conservative governments keep having to come in and pick up the pieces left by Labour, make some really difficult decisions, get the economy back on track. I have to say right now, I think we're in this fantastic place where we've got a strong economy and now we can start investing properly in public

services and education, NHS, police, all that. That's what I want us to be able to do, not see Labour come back in and then spend all the money and wreck the economy again. Laura? I mean, it's a really inadequate analogy. Who is the economy doing really well for, Helen? I've just said that there are 14.3 million people in poverty, 9 million of which are in working households. Even people who are higher earners, not on the minimum rate of pay, have seen their pay is less now than it was 10 years ago.

We have not recovered from the global financial recession, which would, of course, not made in the Labour Party in Westminster. This was a global financial recession. I cannot believe you do not have a plan for inward poverty. Your actual response was... You don't have a plan to take people out of

poverty who are inward. Increasing the minimum wage. Wages are now going up in real terms. By the end of next Parliament there has been... Pay has stagnated. People are poorer now than they were 10 years ago. 400,000 fewer people living in poverty than in 2010. You're talking about absolute poverty, aren't you?

Not relative. Well, yes, the best way to reduce relative poverty is to have a recession, which is what you guys like to treat. I mean, this is just fear-mongering, isn't it? Like what we are, you know, the OECD, the IMF have said that you are just entrenching austerity, actually, and that there will be a continuation, too, of austerity under the Liberal Democrats. We need an absolute break from this. That's actually not true. The Resolution Foundation have said that our manifesto would do the most.

You were co-authors of the current situation we are in. Looking at what's happening going forward, Laura, is that it would be the Liberal Democrats that would do the most for low income families. How would you eradicate in work poverty? Well one of the things that you have failed to mention is that we're recommending that there should be a 20% increase for those who are working in the gig economy in their minimum wage. What about the security of contracts, their terms and conditions? Indeed but for some people that is something that they wish to have the flexibility for but they do need I think over time... I just want to bring in a tweet from a listener. Alison says,

universal credit, setting up a business, not just work, also lifts people out of poverty. Work with little career or salary progression is a depressing prospect. Universal credit is too difficult for many self-employed to claim, leaving them without any support, and it needs rethinking urgently. I think it is true, isn't it, Helen,

that actually all of us, I think, are, what do they say, two or three bits of bad luck away from having nowhere to sleep at night. And I've never been on Universal Credit. I don't know what it's like to wait that five weeks for the money to come through. Would I use a food bank in those circumstances? I might have no option. It just doesn't seem like a situation that is appropriate in the 21st century

for a country as rich as ours well i mean i think it's really important that we have a benefit system which is there for people when they need it that as you say if you can't pay the bills then you can go and get help is why for instance universal credit rightly now provides advances and that system is so much about helping people get into work, helping people get ahead on work and it is helping people, for instance, because it no longer has this cliff edge where you can't work any more hours and I've spoken to people who have benefited from that

along with the childcare support that you get, for instance, if you're on your universal credit. So this is all about helping people into work and actually, as you were just reading out, helping people then progress within work and get on to higher wages and build their careers. Which there's no evidence of. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, 03700 100 444.

If you want to take part, you can use the hashtag WHDebate. This is the Women's Hour Election 19 debate. We're on air live until 11.30. And with me are Helen Waitley, Minister for the Arts, Heritage and Tourism, Laura Pidcock of the Labour Party, Dr Sarah Wollaston of the Lib Dems, Belinda De Lucy, a Brexit Party MEP, and in Edinburgh for us this morning, Deirdre Brock, who is a candidate for the Scottish National Party. Now, today's debate features five parties.

Yesterday on the programme, Sian Berry, the co-leader of the Greens, was on, alongside Liz Saville-Roberts, who's Plaid Cymru's Westminster leader. They were both on Women's Hour yesterday and here they are describing their party's offer to women voters. They're actually talking in particular about child poverty and it's Sian you'll hear from first. Climate action is an absolute bottom line for us, as are changes to austerity. I think one thing that we're all about is system change and people often interpret that as're all about is system change. And people often interpret that as just being about the climate, but it isn't. And one thing that we've got as a goal, as part of our manifesto,

is the elimination of poverty. And that sounds really grandiose, but actually it's not that difficult to do. We're talking about providing a universal basic income to absolutely every person to replace the benefit system to take away that conditionality and it's a really really big idea it goes along with our green new deal of investing in infrastructure investing in energy in people's homes to transform the way things work in terms of energy but this would transform society and i i'm so proud that we've actually in this election when so many parts of society are breaking down, we're putting forward the big system changes that all link together in a way that we've not really done before. In previous elections, we've tended to put forward some bright ideas, things that we can justify that sort of make the case that green ideas can work, that the other parties might take up? Our offer with this general election is to address the reality of poverty in Wales

and to address that with costed and targeted policies, and particularly with the Welsh children's payments that we would propose of £35 per week to families living on the poverty line, and one in three children in Wales are living on the poverty line. And in all honesty, if we don't address those children and give them greater aspirations and the means to have greater ambitions, I would be concerned that we're looking at the rolling on of these same conditions into the future. So we're looking at 40 hours of free childcare from the age of one onwards, this Welsh child

payment to address particular poverty with families who are living on the poverty line and also further investment in schooling. And also that health is very much an issue in Wales. But at the same time, and this has to be said, of course, that education and health are both devolved matters. Although we need, therefore, and we would be calling for this, for benefits and welfare matters to be devolved for Wales so that we could use them as we need for our particular communities. Liz Saville Roberts of Plaid Cymru. And before that, you heard from Sian Berry of the Green Party. And a listener here says, actually, I'm interested. Can you make sure that your participants, I'm paraphrasing because my screen has just slipped there.

Here, I've got it again now. Please change the way these discussions are arranged make the rule that participants can only talk about what their party is going to do or planning to do rather than talking about what others are not doing maybe then we'll get a clearer picture okay um i get that i understand the point that they're making there um let's go to katherine uh katherine good morning you want to talk about the gender pay gap. Yes, I do. Because, and this relates to everything that's been said so far, millions of working women are being robbed, basically throughout their working lives. And if your pension is based on your final salary, you're robbed all the way through your retirement as well. And we know this is happening. The TUC estimates the gender pay gap is on average something like

£10,000 a year less for women. Add that up over the course of a woman's working life and that adds up to we're paid between a quarter and half a million pounds less than men whether we have children or not and this is an

outrage. And your question to the politicians? Helen Waitley. Oh, I feel so strongly about gender pay. I mean, I know I can say that the gender pay gap is at a record low, but that doesn't make anyone feel happy because it's not good enough and you need to close it. As you all know, we brought in the requirement for transparency to get companies to report their gender pay gaps and to start taking action that way.

One way I really want to see this change, and I realise that Catherine said that it's affecting women, whether you're parents or not, but we know that one of the big points at which women tend to miss out on pay is when they start to have children. So to support women to continue their careers, should they want to, to help them back into work, to cut down on maternity discrimination and flexible working is one of the things I personally have really campaigned for. I'm very glad to see in our manifesto because that will help both parents, mothers and fathers, partners play their role their role in looking after children and being in work. Right. I mean, is it the fact that women don't get paid as much? Or is it the fact that women so-called cluster in jobs that are traditionally done by women and therefore aren't valued very highly and therefore they don't get paid very much?

Where does the problem actually start? I think that's a really, really interesting question. I mean, I think, and yes. Yes, to what? Well, yes, that some women are just working in areas where the pay isn't so high. Like care, for example. Yes, so exactly. Which is one reason why increasing the national living wage has actually particularly helped women.

I wish that wasn't the case, that women weren't the ones on low wages, but that has particularly helped women because women being on lower wages. We want to support women, get ahead in their careers. Belinda, of the Brexit Party, what do you say about this? I actually agree with what you said there about the gender pay gap, but one thing I'd like to do, certainly I do with my daughters, is empower my girls to feel brave enough to ask for pay rises as well. I mean, I remember being at work and being very timid

about asking for pay rises as well. I mean, I remember being at work and being very timid about asking for pay rises compared to some men who were doing the same job as I was doing. Now, I know that was back in the 1990s, and I think we've changed, but I do want girls to feel that they have the right to demand higher pay as well and not be frightened or feel reluctant to ask for it, to feel like they deserve it as well.

I think empowering girls in school to feel brave enough to keep on asking and having self-worth and value and say, no, I deserve this, I want to find out how much the gent's getting paid who's doing the same for me. Be proactive as well. I think there has been evidence that even if you ask as a woman, you're less likely to get a rise, but you certainly can try asking. Sarah Wollaston? Well, one of the things we'd like to do is to bring in free childcare from nine months

and to make that for 48 weeks a year and 35 hours a week and make sure that it's fully funded because at the moment there's significant underfunding of childcare and I think this will actually help very many women to get back to work if that's their choice much earlier on. So I think that's an important practical thing that we would like to do as Liberal Democrats. In fact it's the single biggest sort of key offer

within our manifesto and we've been estimating that that would cost a total of £14.6 billion and that that's been fully costed within our manifesto as well. Nobody so far has asked about spending plans although there is certainly a good question to be asked. I'll get round to it if nobody else does but oh three seven hundred

one hundred four four four laura pick up the gender pay gap what would labor do yes i think this individualization of pay again is is incorrect so like just being brave enough to speak up and ask ask for for more money um is in my view not to deal with a systemic problem here because I think loads of women are very brave, but the employer would just say no. And so we have to have mechanisms in place to make sure that this is a collective issue that's solved. So there should not just be the right to ask for flexible work in which the Tories say that there is,

because then again the employer can say, well, you've asked and we've considered it, and then there's a no. There has to be a duty to provide that as well, unless it's completely unreasonable for the business to provide that. And of course, for some small businesses, that is a big ask, isn't it? Well, it is. I mean, before I was a Member of Parliament,

I managed a team of all women. There were seven women in the team. And what I saw was most of the women could do full-time hours, actually. But the pattern of hours couldn't fit into their care and responsibilities. So you see that women are forced down a part-time work when actually they could do the hours if there was a bit more flexibility. So for small businesses, I know loads of small businesses that are very very good and offer that but i think there has to be a presumption in favor of the women asking for that flexibility and then and then the corresponding duty to provide and that would come through and

this is crucially what i'd say on this and is there has to be enforcement so we are saying that we would set up a workers protection agency that is looking into the reasonableness and then that duty to provide. Go on, Helen. I'm really delighted that you've actually picked up on this policy, which was something I was particularly driving some months ago on wanting flexible working to be the default. So that businesses should offer flexible working unless there was a clear business reason that they shouldn't and introduce that in a 10-minute rule bill in parliament so so i introduced that in a 10-minute rule bill in parliament there'd be some fantastic campaigners like anna whitehouse who've been supporting it so very happy to to see that presumption being something you're

picking up it's also something in our manifesto that we're doing work on i'm just wondering what would happen under your regime if the worker says no the employer says no to that request of flexible so we're going to consult on how to on how we can do that and how we can introduce flexible working as being the default and that would of course need to look at how the questions of you know how you make sure that we would have the corresponding duty therein lies the difference all right okay well there's obviously going to be some differences between you. Just an email here from a listener about universal credit. It's just a slice of life, this. In theory, you see advances are available in practice. And I know this from the experience of my sister following a hip replacement and with no funds at all available.

Applicants are told advances are not available and they must apply to the local authority for a grant. She did so and was offered one voucher for a food bank. She couldn't get there as she didn't have any money and couldn't walk. Go figure, says that contributor. Deirdre Brock of the SNP, any thoughts on that? Yeah, just in terms of the previous discussion or that specific... Anything you like. OK, well, I just thought I'd make the point that I think our government and our first minister is very much leading by example.

We've got one of the very few gender balance cabinets anywhere in the world. I think it's important to note that we are going to be giving, we're doubling free childcare by 2020. What percentage of your candidates are female in this election? I think it's 34%. Which isn't brilliant, is it? We have a lot to do in making that up, for sure. But as you know, there are things in place already where if a candidate steps down,

then all women shortlists are put in place. So I'm hoping we'll see improvements in that in the future. And it's certainly something that concerns me. And as you know from your recent interview with the First Minister, it's something that very much concerns her too. So we are expanding those free childcare hours to women in Scotland. And we introduced an Act in 2018, which I would love to see reproduced throughout the UK as well,

the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act. Now, we don't have control over private board membership, of course. That's not something that's been devolved to Scotland, neither do we have the employment laws not devolved to Scotland either, unfortunately. But with that Representation on Public Boards Act, we've got a statutory objective for equal representation of women on public sector non-exec boards. And I think that's a really important development. Susan on Twitter says, why do politicians talk about childcare as an issue

which only affects women? The current discussion on Women's Hour is a case in point. The gender pay gap will not be solved by free childcare. I haven't mentioned that. Laura, who wants to go on that one? The reason I mention it is there's one aspect of it. Of course there's far more to it. And of course this is an issue that affects parents, not just women.

But what we all recognise, because the point that had been picked up in the question was that many women miss out because they've taken large gaps of time to be caring for children. That was certainly the case for me, that I had many, you know, equivalent, quite a lot of time out of my career as caring for my children. That was certainly the case for me that I had many, you know, equivalent, quite a lot of time out of my career as caring for my children. And that is in practice still the case. And so even though bringing in shared parental leave, I think is a very positive thing. And I think it's right. And several of the manifestos make a point about extending paternity leave, for example, which I think is also important but i think that fundamental point for very many women is that that they fall behind because they can't afford the the child care so that is just a practical point okay who else wants to start well i didn't i

didn't mention it first and foremost because i know that um women sometimes get a bit like bored of it being reduced to that um but we can't also ignore that it is a huge factor but you're right when I talked about flexible working that you should apply to men too because we want to make sure that's normalised for both men and women I think we can all be feminists here I'll just say one of the really important

things is we are going to make it not permissible to dismiss a pregnant woman or somebody that has returned from work for 12 months after they've returned to work without prior inspection, prior approval of that workers' protection agency because we know that there's a particular vulnerability. Yeah, astonishingly, women are vulnerable at that time.

I just wanted to absolutely agree with that. And I always try and talk about parents rather than just mothers when we talk about childcare because I don't want to kind of reinforce those stereotypes although it is the case that at the moment the majority of caring is done by women I think society is changing, dads are being much more hands on so flexible working

has to be for men as well as women and actually from the work I did on that you quite often saw that it was harder for men to get flexible working but they need it so that the mum can be pursuing her career as well. Same for the after-school childcare and our £1 billion fund for after-school childcare. I love day childcare. It's really important for dads as well as mums, anyone who's caring.

Yeah, sure. Thanks, Helen. I just want to say another area that's good to look at here is when men and women have been spending time out of their careers to look after children, to help with retraining them financially, help them if they need to retrain nurses or doctors or teachers or electricians or plumbers. If they've taken time off from their career, should we not then be offering some kind of support to get them back into retraining, even if it's just a few months, to get back into the career

so they don't feel like they've missed out on too much? Let's go to the phones. Helen has a question about the countryside because I think you feel, Helen, it gets forgotten. Whereabouts are you? I'm in North Yorkshire in Matham. Right, so tell me what your question is. Well, I'd like to know what people, what parties are

planning to do for the countryside. It seems to me we're losing a lot of our natural English rural appeal. Wildlife is being marginalised in the name of development and what's happening is all the hedges are disappearing so there's no wildlife corridors for hedgehogs

and badgers and birds to live in and I'd like to see somebody change the plans. My understanding is that Europe will not pay a subsidy on land that isn't productive so farmers are pulling up hedges to make the land productive in order to qualify for subsidies.

And I'd like to know what the election will do to change that. Right, who wants to go first on that one? I think there was an appreciative animal joining in there. We need a name check on that one, Helen. Who was that? That was Matilda. Right. She sounds like one of our more educated

listeners. Matilda clearly agrees. Yeah, I think she does. Okay, Sarah Wollaston, the countryside. I think that's very important. I mean, one of the things that is a big issue in my constituency is rural bus services, for example. So actually investing in rural bus services will be important, making sure that there's better rural broadband. And we're going to have a two billion rural services fund to actually try and look at how you can co-locate services better in rural areas. So I think there's a lot that needs to be done. And on your point about housing, of course, housing has to be sensitive to not degrading the natural environment as well.

But in areas, many rural areas, the real crisis is the lack of affordable housing. So the earnings to house price ratio in my area is around 13 times. I mean, it's become unaffordable to young families. So what do young people do? Young people simply have to move away. And that is creating a crisis in many rural areas. So I think that the policies we have, for example, around second homes in very beautiful rural areas like mine,

to make sure, for that there's the local councils when people pay for council tax it's five times for second homes and that money then goes into social housing budgets because it is a it is a very serious problem at the moment many people who own second homes are able to evade paying it all together by saying that they're going to pay small business rate and then they can claim small business rate release. It's an absolute scandal. And we have to do something in rural areas where young families are being completely priced out to make sure that we can divert money properly into social housing. And that's something the Liberal Democrats want to do with a dedicated fund coming from the £130 billion that we're going to put into our infrastructure fund. There's so much money floating about all of a sudden.

Not all of that obviously going to housing but it comes from that fund. Helen, communities are dying. Sarah is right about that. I don't see that at all and actually in my role as Culture Minister we are investing we just announced before I don't see that at all. And actually, in my role as culture minister, we are investing, we just announced before Parliament dissolved for the election,

£250 million fund to invest in cultural, in communities, along with High Street's heritage fund. But what about the young people forced to leave their homes and their places of birth because they simply cannot afford to live there. Well, in fact, this brings us, and also brings us back to your caller Helen's question, which is to do with the dilemma between house building and the countryside. So since 2010, 1.5 million homes have been provided.

This is a significant supply of houses. But I know because I represent a constituency that's also taking on a lot of development this this can be very difficult for those living with lots of development going on around them pressure on infrastructure but also pressure on the countryside and so we really have to make sure that we we meet the housing need hand in hand looking after the countryside that's why we want to see that every development will have a net positive impact on the environment that's why we're working with the environment bill on nature recovery networks to working with wildlife trust to actually link up um the countryside and nature to provide these

vital wildlife corridors to connect the bits of countryside thank you and also can i just pick up sorry on on because because hel Helen mentioned about, I think, agricultural payments, sort of the EU common agricultural scheme. And what we want to do, and this is one of the things which, you know, it's so frustrating that we haven't been able to get on with legislation. We're having to stop and have the selection in order to get Brexit done. You chose to have this election. Well, no, we've got really stuck in Parliament.

You did, you decided to have this election. We've got really stuck in Parliament, but we have both an environment bill and an Agriculture Bill. Hang on, the Queen's speech was passed. So this was a decision taken. This is something we keep hearing, that you were forced into this election. It's not true.

A certain amount of tactics that went on with the Queen's speech where I know Labour MPs who said they were given permission to allow that, but told to vote against other things. So we could not get stuff done. I mean, come on. No, no, no, that's the line that you have been faithfully trotting out. Not just you, Helen, but every single Conservative representative. You started off with trust.

A number of times on the doorstep, people have said to me, they're so frustrated with Parliament, we're so stuck. Particularly people who voted Leave, they want to see Brexit done and Parliament is not doing it. So we have to fix a problem that we don't have a government with a majority. I've just realised, we've got until almost 11 o'clock, it's the first mention of Brexit, which is actually astonishing. But Laura, go on, what do you want to say? Yeah, so I understand intimately the issues that rural communities are facing and they are in and of themselves like small ecosystems. So if something, you know, like a rural sixth form disappears, that is a devastating, that has a devastating impact on that community for the feeder schools.

And if there is not a funding formula, for example, that accounts for rurality, then that has a huge impact. And I know we shouldn't talk about the places that we wish to represent, but that happened in the community I wish to represent where the sixth form had to be suspended because pupil numbers for those smaller schools can never support the threshold that's needed so in all honesty some of the children in these schools are having to go and this will be happening all around the country are having to travel an extra 10 hours a week to get that sixth form education if we also look at the rural payment system for farmers they are telling me time and time again

that they have been failed they are receiving payments late that has a real impact on their security of their farms and and i think sarah is right to mention buses these are these are also interdependent on each other and if one, it makes a rural community much harder to survive. So we have to look at it in the round. Right. Deidre in Edinburgh. Hi. Yes. Look, just coincidentally, in a way, yesterday I signed a pledge which enables the Scottish government to pledge to plant 36 million trees a year by 2030. That was in association with CONFOR, which is an organisation that represents a number of folk in the forestry area.

And I think, you know, our record on that, I think, again, I'm afraid is a lot better than the rest of the UK. I think 84% of new plantings last year were all in Scotland. I mean, in terms of the rural areas and the impact on them, support for them, I mean, the biggest damage to rural economies facing them at the moment is through Brexit. The uncertainty over tariffs,

what's going to be applicable to the regulations and so on. We're getting on to Brexit, I promise. Okay, but there's that. But there's also, I can just say, you know, our housing is on track to reach our 50,000 target, so that will help rural communities. And enterprise initiatives such as that that started recently in the south of Scotland,

which is targeted spend, decided upon by people who live in that area. So it's going into things like supporting young people into employment and start-up businesses. I mean, these are the sorts of things that we're trying to do up in Scotland. I mean, agriculture is almost entirely devolved. OK, we're going to go back to the listener in a second to find out whether she thinks her question's been answered.

But Belinda De Lucy of the Brexit Party. Yeah, just quickly, a huge amount of our support for the Brexit Party came from coastal communities, fishing communities, and they have felt long ignored by both governments, and they want rejuvenation, and we want to bring back control of our fiscal policy, of all our money. It's not just the amount of money we spend in the EU,

it's actually the amount that's wasted in the EU that could be redirected to these regions that have been left behind, where actually there's a big elderly problem as well in the coastal communities and we need to rejuvenate the fishing communities we're an island and we can't support the fishing industry and this really needs to be looked at and it can't carry on like this. Brexit is your subject and we'll come back to you on that one in a couple of minutes but Helen in Masham any joy there have you heard anything you like? I like the trees I like the courage to grow trees i think i think there's been a lot of

equivocation amongst the the panel there nobody's actually told me what they're doing about the countryside they're telling me about what they're doing in the countryside housing buses this that and the other but what about the actual hedges trees preservation of what it looks like now and what we don't want it to change any further away from. We don't want these great green prairies. We want little fields and we'll only get it if we make it financially worthwhile to the farmers. We must subsidise the retention of our wildlife.

OK, Helen, thank you very much. Really briefly, Helen. That's exactly what I wanted to pick up. I'm talking about the Agriculture Bill, where we want to funnel our support to farmers towards public goods, towards the environment, towards the countryside, towards wildlife, towards air quality and water and all these things. That's exactly what we want to do.

We just need to have a chance to get that legislation through. 03700 100 444. It's the Women's Hour election debate. I should say this morning, there isn't a news bulletin at 11 o'clock. We are ploughing on until 11.30. And my guests around the table, Belinda De Lucy of the Brexit Party. We've got Helen Waitley of the Conservatives,

Sarah Wollaston of the Lib Dems, Laura Pidcock for Labour and Deirdre Brock for the SNP, who's joining us via our studio in Edinburgh this morning. And we're going to talk about Brexit. And just to, you know, I was awake half the night, inevitably, and I was going through in my head the Brexit stances

of all the contributors on the programme this morning. This is worth... Just everyone can note this down as we go through this. So, Deirdre in Edinburgh is a Remainer. She's always been a Remainer. Belinda of the Brexit Party, you won't be surprised to hear, is a Leaver. Helen Waitley voted Remain, but now favours leave. Correct. I think we should do it.

Yeah. Sarah Wollaston was a Tory leaver, then a Tory remainer. No, no, what I was is during the referendum campaign, I stated why, having listened to the evidence, I thought we should remain, I voted remain. But before that... And I've continued. You were keen on leave.

I remember that, you were. No, I was what you would call a soft-leave Eurosceptic at the beginning of the campaign. That's so least, I can't keep up. No, no, but it's true. And actually, during the campaign, the weight of the evidence about the harm to our NHS, social care and public health was such that I had to say, look, I think this would be very damaging. So I voted remain. I was a remainer. Right. And now you're a Lib Dem. I'm a Lib Dem and I'm still a Remainer.

And Laura Pigcott, you voted Remain. Then you decided you wanted to go along with the result of the referendum. Now you want a confirmatory referendum. So we want to renegotiate a credible leave deal and have the option of Remain to let people have the final say. OK, puzzled? Join in using the hashtag WHDebate. say a credible leave deal and have the option of remain to let people have the final say yeah okay puzzled join in uh using the hashtag wh debate and let's go to louise good morning to you louise okay hi louise how are you i'm fine thank you good what do you want to ask about brexit

i want to ask what the panel's views are first First of all, do they understand the position of UK citizens living in Europe and the devastation that it would cause if we leave the EU and what are the policies around the table? Fair enough. So, Belinda De Lucy, how would you answer that?

Well, I'm not privy to the experience of our expats in the EU. I've never lived anywhere except the UK, to be honest. And I can imagine it can be quite a puzzling time. It's been three and a half years and everything still seems so uncertain and it seems to be a lot of chaos. I'm not surprised that people are feeling slightly unsure about what's going to happen.

I think until we actually leave on the 31st of January, I hope this time, I don't think many things will become clear. And I do feel sorry for the people who are slightly left out in the dark about it. I don't think Brexit was ever going to be easy for everyone. I think big changes can bring disruption to people's lives. And that's just being honest. And I wish the Leave campaign had been a little bit more honest about it during the referendum. Honest about what precisely? Honest about the disruption change would bring.

I still think people would have voted to leave. Do you? Yeah, I do. Absolutely. Because I think it's so much more than about economics. So what are the things they missed out that they ought to have mentioned? I think they should have been honest about how the EU would have resisted any, well, resisted us leaving so much. I don't think the EU would have given us a good trade deal as long as they saw our parliament as a very heavy remain parliament.

Our parliament's 75% remain. And I think, for me, it was very clear at the time that the EU were never going to give us a good deal. Yeah, I don't want to put words into your mouth. But you as a member of the Brexit Party are basically saying that the campaign was woefully oversimplified, and that people voted for something that was more or less unachievable. Absolutely not saying that at all in the slightest. What I'm saying is, your listeners, I think, deserve honesty, and people looking back back and saying how could we have done things better. I still think we would have voted to leave absolutely but I do think at the time for me, I mean I'm doing a

master's in EU law at the moment, that doesn't make me an expert at all but I did see at the time that it would have been perhaps more to say look this will become a bit of disruption. I don't think there was anything wrong with that and I still think people would have been perhaps more to say, look, this will become a bit of disruption. I don't think there was anything wrong with that. And I still think people would have voted to leave because it was about democracy and sovereignty and the destination that the EU is on, not just about economics. Helen, we'll address the caller's point in a moment, but you did vote Remain. Now, why did you vote Remain? So I spent a long time weighing it up.

I was one of the later people to come down on one side or the other, amongst whom most MPs declared how they were going to vote in the referendum. I voted remain because I thought that leaving was going to be difficult. And you weren't wrong there, were you? Uncertainty and lots of arguing about Brexit. And I thought there were other things which I had gone into politics to focus on, particularly caring about health care. And I wanted us to be able to do stuff to do with health care the NHS. However as you said my position is that we should leave and that's because I voted for us to have a referendum and the referendum was to leave therefore I think

we should honour that referendum result and so even if you have you changed your mind in terms of whether it's going to be good for the country though because I understand that the reason you voted remain was because you're concerned about the economy you realized it would be very difficult and you thought it might also threaten security have you changed your mind on all those things now well we're going through the the period of uncertainty that I thought that we would have if we voted to leave is what we have been and are going through this is a really painful bit I think that what you're determined to cling to your belief that it is the right thing to do, even though you didn't think it was the right thing to do in the June of 2016.

So as I said, I think this is the really tough bit economically, this enormous amount of uncertainty. That's what I hear from businesses, that this is the worst thing is not knowing and the uncertainty and the dragging it out. When actually you move forwards, then things will get better. And in fact, we should we should receive a boost in investment as well because of that. So I can also see very well the opportunities for us beyond Brexit. And I can see how we can have strong trade relationships, for instance, with faster growing economies further afield. Though I do feel strongly we need to have still a strong relationship with the European Union as our closest trading partner. Laura, your stance on Brexit is, you know, you've changed a bit too, haven't you? So you're currently at the view that the Labour Party are

going to magic up this new agreement. Nobody quite knows how and we don't really understand how quickly you're going to be able to do it. And then we don't know how your leader is going to go one way or the other when you have your confirmatory referendum but we do know that you support the idea of a confirmatory referendum i don't know how you do on the doorstep with this but i'm finding it quite hard so i think um i mean the way you set up that question was very interesting and i've seen media outlets do this time and time again which is to kind of sow confusion into the process. I don't think I could be accused of... There is confusion.

I mean, I don't think I'm sowing it in. Let me finish my sentences that this pursuit for simplicity actually does not reflect the complex reality of A, the process, or B, the mix of people's feelings. So there are people that voted Leave who still want to leave. There are people who voted Remain that think we should leave on democratic principles. There are people who voted remain that think we should leave on democratic principles. There are people who changed their mind.

This is a really complex situation. What we are saying is the arbitrary red lines of the Conservative government and the three years of failure actually to deliver this, and that was their one pledge. Theresa May went out to get an increased majority to make the passage through Parliament easier. That failed, then Boris Johnson failed. And I understand the deep tensions and the deep kind of frustration within communities

actually on the doorsteps. Yes, there are some angry people who feel like they've been really, really let down by a political class, but they feel that about lots and lots of issues. I'm not being unfair, I think, when I just bring to everybody's attention that the reality of the Labour Party's, what do they call it, the policy of constructive ambiguity on Brexit. You have a lot of Leave voters who are traditional Labour supporters. I understand people know you've got to keep them sweet.

But how are you, when you raise the subject on the doorstep, or perhaps your constituents or would-be constituents raise it? I had a Hustons in a pub the other night and I've knocked on hundreds of doors like everyone round this table. And I think they understand, you know, if we recognise that Boris Johnson, who now positions himself as like an arch-lever,

he voted against the withdrawal agreement himself twice because he felt it was inadequate. Nigel Farage, an arch-lever is saying that it's not his version of Brexit. That's not the, you know, it's not I'm talking about your would-be voters. So what I am saying is when people try and position me as like

trying to postpone Brexit or sabotage it, it isn't true. We couldn't have voted for that withdrawal agreement and I think people understand that. I think people understand for like the farming community why there is an anxiety over free trade agreements and why they want a customs arrangement so i think um a renegotiation of a leave option is absolutely sensible and putting that to the people after three years and lots of

light shone on this it's not a leave option though a lot so well that will be up for leave us to decide give belinda a chance go on belinda i'm really sorry but what you're offering you're just trying to, with the greatest respect, not you personally, but I feel that Labour is trying to con the people again and again. And we see very clearly you're offering Remain versus Remain without a seat at the table.

You're disenfranchising 17.4 million leave voters. They will have no leave option, no matter how you spin it. We know full well that is not a leave option so what you're doing let me just sorry just finish thank you democracy is meaningless unless it's implemented and just because you have the power and the platform you can't decide to overturn a vote or decide not to implement one because you don't like the result fact is if we don't implement

the result of 2016 then the fabric of our society democratically will be torn, I think, irreparably. So be very careful what you're saying. People see right through this. You've always, the Labour, for the past three years, have absolutely conned the people, trying to keep both remain and leave happy. You really have.

I don't think many people could argue against that. And the options you're giving on the ballot paper are anti-democratic. They're disenfranchising. And I do not think they'll go down well with the five million Labour voters. With all due respect to you, you haven't offered what your party would do on some of the fundamental questions of the day. So you've offered opinions, but you haven't given us pledges. And I think it is really, really unfair

to say that we are trying to con people. This kind of language is awful. I think con is rather... Let's bring in the remain side of it. No, you didn't. Let me finish the point. It's not anti-democratic to say that that withdrawal agreement was inadequate for Leave voters.

Nobody wanted to remove the floor on workers' rights, for example, and not have non-regression closures. That withdrawal agreement was woefully inadequate. Hence both Leave and Remain MPs not voting for it and the leaked documents that were given about how workers' rights were under attack. Can I just ask? I know we don't know yet what Labour's new deal is going to contain

if indeed you do win the election, but you are more likely to vote for it, are you, than to vote remain? Well, I would hope that I'm included in those negotiations on employment rights, so I have to keep an open mind. Right, so you can't tell us whether you... Well, we have to see what the negotiations will be like with the EU. So you're not giving your constituents any sense of what they'll be voting for when they're voting for you?

I'm a shadow cabinet member. I hopefully will be in the cabinet in a few days. So if you negotiate a good enough deal, you would vote for it? Well, you know, let's see what the result of those negotiations are. Come on, this is the biggest issue of the day. You've got to bring some clarity here. I must, I must, I must kind of be resolute on this. What I will not have...

Resolute, irresolute. Hold on. What I will not have from people who are the authors of austerity, who have decimated communities... Sorry, now you're just trying to deflect from the... No, no, I'm not. I'm not. I am not having you.

Thank you both very much. You're listening... No, I'll finish this sentence. Nora, we need to bring in the other side because we haven't heard from Sarah Wollaston for a while. I'm not having the communities divided on... Or me. Or you did, yeah. I can having the communities divided on these binary leave remain divisions. It is a distraction.

OK. One thing we do know is that Deirdre Brock has always been a remainer. Deirdre of the SNP, on you go. But listen, I just want to address first your caller's points about. For migrants from the UK who are now living in the EU. I actually think there has been a shameful lack of support and advice for those people and for EU citizens living here. I would like to see the UK government immediately guarantee those citizens, European citizens now living here, the right to stay here for as long as they want, straight away,

just no arguments, because I think that then would lend a lot more certainty to those people currently living in Europe. I'll just remind everyone who probably don't need reminding, but it was 62% of Scotland voted to remain. I'm DEFRA's spokesperson. I'm fully aware of the devastating impact that any sort of Brexit deal could have on our food and drink industry in Scotland,

agriculture, fisheries. I think the Conservatives have failed over this. I think Labour, I'm afraid, and I like Laura, you know, I've got a lot of time for her, but I feel that Labour has failed to show leadership over this. There is no such thing as a good Brexit deal. There is nothing better than the deal we currently have with Europe. Okay, except, of course, Belinda makes the point that in a democratic country that gave its citizens a referendum, the majority voted one way. And if we don't honour that vote, what does it say about our democracy? Well, in a democratic country,

surely the wishes of Scotland would have some attention paid to. We are completely ignored. We have raised issues that concern us and the people we represent. I'm not bound to mention that nearly 40% of the Scottish population voted to leave as well. Anyway, Sarah Wollaston. Well, Liberal Democrats are unequivocally Remain and that we would support a people's vote and we are unequivocally going to campaign for Remain if that went ahead. Can I also just address Louise's original question? Because I think that there are hundreds of thousands of British in Europe, across Europe, who have no idea what will happen to their health care after we leave the European Union, if that goes ahead. And some of them will be completely stranded. People with long-term conditions who won't be able to get insurance, totally stranded.

Many of them will be living with negative equity and unable to return. It's a totally shameful position. And it also applies to those people in this country who up till now have been able to enjoy the European health insurance card, been able to travel freely. And there are many people who will find themselves, particularly people with long term conditions, who will find themselves uninsurable and unable to travel in the same way that they can do now. I think it's a really important point that this will be a serious loss on both sides of the channel. I think it's a great tragedy. I just want to ask you, Belinda, on behalf of our listeners,

not whether life post-Brexit is going to be bearable, but can you just explain the ways in which it will be better? Well, I'm very excited about Brexit and I think there's not enough positive talk about it. Tell us what we need to be excited about. Yeah, I am. The doom and gloom that we've had for three and a half years. If you don't mind, some specific examples.

The things I'm really excited about is the amount of money that we can save. I mean, I said, no, people only talk about how much the EU costs. They never talk about how much the EU wastes. And my experience in Brussels and Strasbourg with their quangos and forums and groups just to chat about this and chat about that and sending groups off to Jamaica for environmental. No, you've got to understand the amount of billions that they waste and that sometimes just go missing for no reason. I want that to be redirected back to the areas in your opinion. Well, I would love

to just finish. Do let Belinda, because I did ask her to be fair, to outline the positives. Being a Brexiteer in London, I'm used to being attacked from all sides. Belinda, I want to hear it. Thank you. I also think in terms of protecting our democratic institutions, it's a huge deal.

You may not care. I know democracy is unfashionable in liberal circles at the moment, but it does mean a lot to people. No, it is. I really feel like people have lost sight of what it means to have a stake in your society. You know, our vote is the safeguard between us and the establishment's abuses of power and I'm afraid the direction the EU is travelling in right now with its

quantitative majority voting, getting rid of vetoes, with the unelected commission, with how many backroom deals are done that create laws we have to live under that we have no say about. These things matter to people. Delinda, surely the online tactics of the Vote Leave campaign have led to people's distrust

in democracy as well. And the lies told on the sides of buses. I mean, these are the sorts of things that people have despised about politics recently. The money we'll save was not a lie. I think what people confuse about the bus is that it was said to be all going to be spent on the NHS. That I can't comment on. I was part of neither of those campaigns. I was a student at the time. I mean, you're a sceptic

for 20 years. You know, I just believe in a nation's right to self-determine their own laws, which I think is important for a healthy society. I also believe in the implementation of democratic votes. Can I ask one thing? Is France or Germany less a sovereign nation, because they are part of Europe, than the UK? Can France ask one thing? Is France or Germany less a sovereign nation, because they are part of Europe, than the UK?

Can France control its borders? Can it control its tariffs? Is it all about borders though? That takes it back to the immigration question again, doesn't it? It's a bit rich for the SNP to ask that question, isn't it? We're talking about the borders seem to raise the immigration question again, which Belinda said this was not about.

Go on then, Belinda. I am pro-immigration. A lot of our party are first, second, third generation immigrants. We double the diversity in the EU Parliament because our party is so enriched by our diverse candidates. I am pro-immigration, but with a cap. Why did Mr

Barrage stand in front of that disgusting poster then? Well, that poster was a photo of real life. Now, that poster made me feel... No, it made me feel uncomfortable. I cannot speak for Nigel. That poster made me feel uncomfortable, but it was at a time where the Europeans' border policy was actually threatening the safety of people.

No, it was. I think open borders... No, it's not shameful. It is shameful. And you cannot shut people down over immigration. You've tried to demonise people who speak about it and their concerns about it. I'm afraid you have. Constantly calling

people racist as soon as you want to control your borders. You don't think that Brexiteers have been labelled with all those names since the beginning of this. Okay, Belinda, just let Sarah speak. Go on, Sarah. I mean, I think that was shameful, that campaign. I said it made me feel uncomfortable and I have nothing to do with that campaign.

And I think that it was deliberately manipulated by the Leave campaign to whip up xenophobia. And I think that what I have seen and noticed since the referendum campaign is the way that racist views are being openly expressed in a way that they were never expressed when I first started in Parliament. I had one person on the doorstep say to me last week, I will vote for the person who's most likely to keep this constituency white, to which I replied, that would not be me. I think we've moved away from the listeners a bit. We need to remember they are listening. We hope they are. Barbara is in London. Barbara, good morning to you. You've got a question about the environment. Yes, I have. yes. Actually, in all this conversation, which has been very wonderful to listen to, nobody's mentioned the climate.

And my concern is that the actual long-term damage Brexit will do will increase our carbon footprint just at the very point where we are now back here trying to tackle it. And planting trees, you know, that's wonderful, but it's all going to be cancelled out if we add enormous amount of extra fossil fuel pollution to the whole environment.

And I wondered what everybody thought about that. Right. Helen. Well, I will absolutely come to that in a second. I was just trying to get in on the last debate. I just wanted a couple of points of fact, one to pick up on Deirdre Box's point about EU citizens. Well, it's just that we have given EU citizens the right to remain. We have guaranteed EU citizens rights within the UK. So I think

that's really important just to make sure that's clear. And on the points that Sarah was making about EU citizens, UK citizens in the EU, which is a previous caller. Actually, what's really important is for us to move on and to negotiate the future relationship because you were painting a worst case scenario, Sarah.

I would be hopeful that our future relationship will actually be one that does make sure that people can access health care, for instance. But we have to get through and leave before we can actually address that. To the very, very, very important question of climate change. I see absolutely no reason why Brexit should be bad for our environment. In fact, I see reasons why Brexit can be good for our environment because we can do better in the UK than the EU. We can set our ambitions higher. And for instance, we in the UK are leading all the major countries in the world

having legislated for net carbon zero in 2050. We are leading the world on this. We're really ambitious on this agenda. So we should and can and will do better. To be fair to the Green Party, they would say, of course, that nobody was more ambitious than them. But Sarah Wollaston, what would you say about that? I think that in terms of...

We're back onto climate change now. Yes, I mean, we need action. Climate change and what Brexit might do to our environment. Well, I think the point is that we're going to get... This is a global issue and we need to do to our environment. Well, I think the point is that we're going to get... This is a global issue and we need to actually be working collectively. And so the best way to take action is alongside our European partners

rather than trying to do this individually. Of course, there's individual action we should take. And coming on to what the Liberal Democrats would like to do about that, we feel it's about taking a quick... So having an emergency programme so that we decarbonise as rapidly as possible rather than arguing about the last 5% and the final date. So what we're saying

is we want to have 80% of all our energy generation from renewables by 2030. And we want to see a phasing out of diesel and petrol cars by the same time, we want to have an emergency programme of insulation for people's homes, focusing on low-income households, first of all. So we have put aside a specific fund to say that we want to get this going. And also, back to a previous caller's point about having a very radical programme of tree planting as well. So we've got an ambitious programme, but we feel we need to get going.

And one of the things I'm most excited about is that by the end of the Parliament, we want to have 10% of the transport budget going on sustainable transport. So, for example, walking and cycling. And because I think we need to make this a healthy initiative that feels positive about people's wellbeing rather than focusing on what people can't do, focusing on what we can do to make people's lives more positive and healthy.

And Deirdre, for the SNP, can you just link the idea of Brexit to what's going to happen to our environment? I am concerned about Brexit because it seems to me that many of the environmental protections that we've enjoyed over the years have actually come about as a result of that cooperation that Sarah talks about and European policies being implemented. And we certainly know from senior members of the Conservative Party that there are hints that they would like to see some of those regulations reduced. Now, we're clearly working in Scotland towards a just transition away from fossil fuels. We've just introduced, I mean, Helen talks about the targets

that the Conservative government have towards achieving net zero by 2050. Ours are actually net zero by 2045. And I think we've got a very good track record on supporting renewables, for example. Our European Marine Energy Centre up in Orkney is doing tremendously well, R&D on renewables as well. I can look to the constituency that I would like to represent and a couple of local businesses there that are just starting to operate across the world. I mean, this is incredibly important.

I mean, tree plantings are important. Rewetting peatlands are incredibly important as well. There is so much to be done, but I do feel that the Scottish government is, I'm afraid, ahead of the game in terms of where the UK is. Right. And let's get Labour's view on this.

Yes, I think that one of the things that worries me post our withdrawal from the European Union is the move toward free trade. Which, of course, may not necessarily happen under a Labour government.

Free trade agreements. I'm pointing out one of the things that worries me about that and moving towards free trade agreements is that we know in the document that was leaked about the US-UK negotiations into the future of our health service that there was a comment that climate change should not be discussed. I don't know if that was a diktat from Donald Trump or not, but that is deeply concerning,

that there is somebody in the White House who is, to all intents and purposes, a climate denier and the cosying up that Boris Johnson does to him. But let me say on our very positive agenda, we have a very radical agenda, a green industrial revolution, where we're talking about the creation of one million jobs

that contributes towards the reduction of climate breakdown. And we have said, you know, because I think it's a bit unreasonable, isn't it, to ask people to change individual behaviours if there isn't the state support behind it. So, you know, so if we talk about the reduction of diesel cars and petrol cars, we've said that would offer two 2.5 million loans for electric vehicles. And also the infrastructure fund means that there'll be many, many more charging points. To get to a reality where people can actually have electric cars, there needs to be state intervention, not just individual acts of goodness. To be fair, everybody around the table has mentioned spending. And it is worth saying that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said it was, quotes, highly likely the Conservatives would end up spending more than their manifesto pledges.

Labour, it warned, wouldn't be able to deliver its spending increases as it's promised. Neither party said the IFS director, Paul Johnson, was being honest with voters. So, and Sarah, I know that the IFS were relatively gentle about the Dems. They thought ours was the realistic one. Well, they said it would still be seen as radical in most periods. But it would be seen as radical, but it wasn't saying that it was unrealistic in making spending prophecies that we hadn't costed.

So ours was the fully costed manifesto. Right, OK, well, you would say that, wouldn't you? No, it's true. It was ambitious as in that it wasn't... Sorry to interrupt you, Sarah, but we just need to bring in another listener. Penny is in Surrey with a question for everybody. Penny, good morning to you.

Good morning. Yes. One of the biggest social shifts in a generation is taking place with almost no political discussion because all the major parties, Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Greens, have largely surrendered to one side of the argument before the public debate has even begun. This is about gender uh self-id and can i ask you to be really brief penny what's the question the question is my question is under the proposed reforms to the gender recognition act which all the parties

support which would allow a man to legally become a woman simply by filling in a form with no hormones or surgery or doctor's certificates required, how will the parties protect women in single-sex cases? Thank you very much. I think that's it in a nutshell. We've got very little time, so can I ask for a reaction from everybody? Sarah Wollaston. Well, I think that there has been an extraordinary level of hostility and I think discrimination against the trans community,

and I'm very proud that the Liberal Democrats are going to actually reverse that. And if we talk about attacks on other people, actually it's transgender people who are among the most vulnerable to being attacked themselves. But what about the protection of women-only

spaces? Of course, I think that is important that that is recognised, for example, within our prisons and so forth. But in practice, the number of people who would want to identify for another gender, if that wasn't genuinely the case, is relatively small. So in short, the Lib Dems support self-ID? I think it is. I mean, why should somebody who identifies by another gender be forced to undergo humiliating medical tests and reports? And I think that we should be also looking in practice

the level of hostility and aggression and attacks that have taken place on transgender people. Right. I mean, it is worth saying those attacks come from men, not from women. What I'm saying is, I just think that we should turn this on its head and look at the discrimination that transgender people have and violence that they have faced. The Lib Dem view there and Laura Pidcock. To answer the question directly, we have said, and it's in Black and White in our manifesto, that we will protect the single sex exemptions on spaces. And I think it's about bringing some clarity on what isories will kind of confirm this, in that the consultation on the JRA, the Gender Recognition Act, there were thousands and thousands and thousands of

responses and nothing has been done with those. There's been no analysis of those responses. And I think that the next step, whoever gets into government, and we are saying we would do this is to analyse those thousands of contributions on the GRA. Okay, Helen So clearly it's a really difficult issue, I'm sure, and it's been discussed quite a lot I think on this programme previous days, but

we don't want to see anyone discriminated against for their gender but we do recognise and want to protect single sex spaces belinda um i have huge sympathy for those going through gender dysphoria um and that are living in a body that they don't feel they can identify with um i really do but i also think this is a huge conversation where women need to be involved in it far far more. I think a self-identification can be seen as reducing biological sex to quite an insignificance, and that needs to be talked about. Also, the impact

this will have on data and statistics. You know, if you identify as a woman, just even if you, what if you are biologically male, look like a man, dress like a man, act like a man, but you claim that you're a woman, and then for some reason commit a crime, how will that affect women's statistics in crime? Well, suddenly, you've got to understand the consequences and the significance of redefining what is a woman and what is a man. And I do think women organisations need to be part of the discussion and not hounded out.

I think there's quite an intolerance and an authoritarian sort of... I just... Thank you very much. Deidre in Edinburgh. It's a shame there's so little time left to discuss this, unfortunately, because it's a very complex... Right, OK. Listen, I think there's such a lot of heat around this discussion and all of these issues really need to be considered with a lot of care

very openly, thoughtfully and respectfully. We need to ensure that the rights that have been very hard won for both trans people and women are maintained and that we build upon the progress we've made there. So I've heard directly from young trans people in particular

of the fears they face so for us the GRA Act, the draft bill that we are introducing early next year, that's about ensuring that all young people have access to support from a trusted adult. And then we're also, of course, very much aware of the concerns that many people have about changing the current process. And the Scottish Government does have a has a duty to address that. But the Equality Act is nearly a decade old now. It's clear that where it is proportionate and justifiable, then there can be exclusions from certain single sex services.

And that applies in cases even when a trans person has legal recognition. That was Deirdre Brock of the SNP answering our final question on the Women's Hour election debate 2019 today. You also heard in that discussion from Helen Waitley of the Conservative Party. We had Laura Pigcock representing Labour, Sarah Wollaston for the Lib Dems and Belinda De Lucy who is a Brexit Party MEP. And thanks to you as well for ringing and for tweeting and for contacting us on Instagram and for good old fashioned email as well. Hooray for Margaret, says a listener, and indeed to Jane for reading her message at the start of the show.

Clever ploy. I wasn't going to listen, but I did, as I thought there might be more sensible contributions from the audience, which there have been. I agree with the listener who wanted more direct, positive answers from the politicians about their policies, rather than telling us what their opponents might or might not do or have done. The people who coach these politicians in answering questions need to remember they're not writing an essay. We don't need an introductory statement followed by waffle before finally reaching a conclusion, i.e. an answer. Thank you for that. However, this listener was not really a satisfied customer. I'm listening to the programme. I'm very frustrated with the politicians on the panel. Very few questions are actually being answered. The case in point being

the environmental question that was sidetracked into specifying ways that each party would further destroy more of the countryside by building more buildings and polluting with more combustible engines within rural communities. Finally, one of your speakers said that despite voting remain, she thinks that the politicians should honour the result of the referendum vote. I'm fed up with hearing how stupid I must have been because I voted leave and I obviously didn't understand what I was voting for. I think that's twaddle. And finally, this is from Kim,

and this goes back to a discussion on the programme about childcare. Why would I have a child and then give it to a perfect stranger to look after? Pay me to look after my own child and give the choices around work and childcare to each individual family. That's that point made by a listener. Thank you very much for that. Thanks to everybody who took part today. We've got Jo Swinson, the leader of the Liberal Democrats on Woman's Hour on Friday morning. And there'll be some talk too on tomorrow's programme and podcast about Northern Ireland and the political situation there. Here's a question. A man escapes from one of the world's most brutal dictatorships. He's risked everything to do it. But once he's free, he digs a hole and

he tunnels straight back in again. Why? Find out in Tunnel 29, a new 10-part podcast series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Helena Merriman. To subscribe, search for Intrigue Tunnel 29 on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.