Woman's Hour - The Woman's Hour Power List 2020, Mary McAleese, Known Donations, Chutney

Episode Date: September 26, 2020

The 2020 Woman’s Hour Power List is ‘Our Planet’ - the search is on for 30 women based in the UK who are making a significant positive contribution to the environment. Emma Howard Boyd, the chair of the Environment Agency, and Flo Headlam, a horticulturalist and garden designer are two of the judges. Mary McAleese was twice president of Ireland, studied canon law when her term ended and, to the surprise of many, as she has a deep personal faith, spoke out against misogyny in the global Catholic Church. Her autobiography is called ‘Here’s the Story : A Memoir.’There’s been a rise in websites and Facebook groups offering Known Donation, where a person seeking to conceive uses a sperm or egg donation from someone they know, or got to know before the treatment. We hear from Sarah Norcross, Director of the Progress Educational Trust; Erika Tranfield, the mother of a donor-conceived child from a known donor; and Natasha Fox, a donor-conceived adult who does not know the identity of her biological father.Emily Hunt was filmed when she was asleep in a hotel room. A man was convicted of voyeurism, but it took her several years to secure that conviction and she decided to waive her right to anonymity to fight her case. But what do you gain and what do you lose if you do give up your anonymity? Jenni hears from Emily and Leona O’Callaghan who did the same: she waived her right to anonymity when the man who abused her as a child was on trial and then convicted. She also hears from “Rebecca” who doesn’t want to waive her anonymity. She’s pressing the CPS to prosecute a man who she says attacked and raped her.When actor Shobna Gulati’s mum was diagnosed with dementia in 2017, she was already spending the majority of her time caring for her. Her mother has since died, and she’s written a memoir about her family and her mum’s illness called Remember Me? Discovering my mother as she lost her memory.It is chutney and pickle season and a great opportunity to use up your remaining fruit and veg. Food historian Lizzie Collingham explains the history behind the relishes.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon. In today's Weekend Woman's Hour, the launch of the 2020 Woman's Hour Power List. The judges are looking for women at the forefront of saving the planet. The rise in the number of websites offering what's known as known donation. What is it and why is it becoming common? We wanted to understand a little bit more about him but most importantly we wanted him to be in our daughter's life. We wanted a little bit more on top of that for we wanted our daughter to be able to know his parents so his mum and dad, her nanny and granddad. The actor Shobhna Gulati on her memoir Remember Me? She cared for

her mother who had dementia. In this season of mist and mellow fruitfulness, using up fruits and vegetables to make chutney and pickles, and the decision to waive the right to anonymity for victims of sex crimes, what are the advantages and disadvantages of making your name public? Mary McAleese was born in Belfast in 1951 into a Roman Catholic family. They saw some of the worst excesses of the troubles. She grew up to study law and become a barrister at a time when girls were rarely expected to have such an ambition. She went on to become a popular president of Ireland, twice, studied canon law when her term ended,

and to the surprise of many, as she has a deep personal faith, spoke out against misogyny in the global Catholic Church. Her autobiography is called Here's the Story, a Memoir. We were very strongly affected by it because I grew up in a place called Ardoyne in North Belfast. It is the area of Northern Ireland with the greatest incidents of sectarian murders. It had a huge history, going back generations of sectarian conflict

that had never been resolved, fully resolved, was always just sitting waiting to be stoked up in another generation. So we were in the middle of that. We lived in a battle zone, in a war zone, effectively. The roads we lived on were places where there were not just everyday fights between young people, police, soldiers, between Catholics and Protestants, but of course, where terrorist groups, paramilitary groups, selected random people for murdering. And so on a daily basis, before we ourselves lost our home there we experience on a daily basis that that nightmare of the fear that it would happen to us with it and of course it eventually did and um the just the terror of living in a place that seemed completely out of control

my younger brother who is profoundly deaf he was attacked in a sectarian attack left for dead thankfully didn't die didn't die, but was horribly scarred emotionally by it. The young man who attempted was one of a gang of four, from a family with very strong roots in the Orange Order, a very Protestant organisation that is strongly anti-Catholic. And he was provided with a watertight alibi, apparently, which allowed him to escape any culpability for my brother's attack, but then subsequently also left him free to murder the manager of the Ulster Bank about a mile down the road from us. So then my young sister was

attacked. Our home was attacked by a gang of about 20 to 30 very militant neighbouring Protestants. And then they came with, when that didn't work, they came with machine guns and machine gunned us from our house. So pretty terrifying times, Jenny. So Mary, to what extent was it these experiences that drove this little working class girl to say, I'm going to be a lawyer and I'm going to work towards peace? Well, strangely enough, those two things were quite separate because I had already formed the view that I wanted to be a lawyer. And a number of reasons for that. I mean, I had a number of great heroes in my life. One was Dan O'Connell, Daniel O'Connell, the great liberator who really

introduced into the Westminster Parliament the notion of not just a parliamentary democracy for everybody, but of human rights for all. This is at a time really when politics was peopled by elites, indeed as Northern Ireland's politics, where it was run by a Protestant elite formed in elitism rather than egalitarianism or equality ideas. So he was a great hero of mine and he was a lawyer. And the other great hero of mine was Sir Thomas More, also a lawyer. And I lived, incidentally, inside a legal system in Northern Ireland, which was totally dysfunctional. A police force that was dysfunctional, a legal system and judiciary and laws and a political system, all of which conspired really to create the circumstances in which Catholics felt excluded and unprotected in their own country. How significant was it that you succeeded Mary Robinson as president,

making you the first woman in the whole world to succeed another woman to such a position? Funny enough, I never really figured that very much in the equation. Other people have made more of it. Yes, but I think it was and is a sign of what was going on in the minds of Irish people. You know, bearing in mind that for a very long time, that regrettable twinning of church and state, which wasn't a formal twinning, but was a very effective twinning of church and state in Ireland, really didn't make for the kind of free thinking and the kind of open thinking that we needed to grow and to develop as a full-scale liberal democracy.

But ironically, the great thing that changed that, I think, in many ways was the advent in Ireland of free second-level education and the massification of third-level education, a lot of which was actually helped and facilitated by the Catholic schools, which still tend today to dominate the educational scene. And they produced people with the critical skills that helped them to critique the very church they were members of. Which, of course, is exactly what you did. Now, the last time we spoke, it was about your criticism of the church, its misogyny, its avoidance of the issue of sexual abuse.

What actually prompted you to study canon law and then speak out so openly against the church? And when you have such faith? Yes well first of all yes I am a person of faith and but I'm also a person with a thinking brain and I was baptised into the Roman Catholic Church you know as a very tiny baby and for the rest of my life I have been told by canon law that the obligations that I undertook then at baptism that I baptism, that I'm obliged under them to remain obedient to whatever the teaching of the church is for the rest of my life. Well, with the greatest respect to the church, it has left out a few chapters in the meantime. Number one, when I undertook those so-called obligations, I was about three days old and hadn't a clue what was happening. So, and these were major obligations. The very idea that you would surrender your intellect and your freedom of conscience, thought, belief, and freedom of religion to an organization for the rest of your life, it runs completely counter to our understanding today of human rights. Human rights, Universal Declaration of Human Rights,

says that every human being has the right to freedom of religion, conscience, belief, thought, including indeed the right to change religion or abandon religion. Now, that reality hasn't really fully yet dawned on the Catholic Church, which has its own system of law called canon law. I've always been interested in that. I've always been interested in my church. I've always been interested in those issues. And I already had a master's degree in canon law, even though I'm a civil lawyer by profession. I had a master's degree in canon law when I left office in 2011. And I decided then I would go to Rome and that I would study canon law so that I could, that when I spoke about these things, that I would have credibility as a trained canon lawyer, which I did. I got the licentiate in canon law in the Gregorian University in Rome.

That's the equivalent, I suppose, of being a solicitor in civil law. And then further than that, I spent the next three, four years doing a doctorate in canon law on children's rights and obligations in canon law. And Mary, what impact do you think you have had on the protection of children from sexual abuse? Within the church? Women's ordination, justice for victims of abuse and the acceptance of same-sex relationships, which you have a son. That's a very good question, Jenny.

And the argument is, have I managed to change anything? No, I have not. But because if you're trying to address the hierarchy of the church, this small, very self-serving, very hermetically sealed group of men who have no conduits really for talking to people like me. I mean, you might, I don't know if you remember, but yes, you do, because the last time we talked, I had been banned from speaking at a conference on women in the Vatican, you know, banned from going to a place that I had been welcomed to by, you know, by Pope John Paul, by Pope Benedict. It seemed to me rather remarkable that in Francis's time, I would be banned from speaking. And I think

that was because of my support for gay marriage, but it was never explained to me. So in the sense that, look, I'm ignored completely by the church's hierarchy. I mean, utterly, absolutely ignored. But that's okay, because they're only a tiny proportion of the church there. They're desperately powerful, yes, and they make the rules, yes. But the church has 1.2 billion people, which is why I stay. It's the biggest NGO in the world, hugely influential. And of course, it's a permanent representative of the United Nations, which only speaks of its power. No other faith system has that power and influence in the world. So I stay in the hope that my tiny little voice sometime will permeate upwards and help along with the voices of many others. Because, Jenny, the truth of the matter is people are walking away in droves. They're tired of these old men trying to beat the drum of obedience and being obedient to teaching that is long past itself by date and needs to be revised, needs to be critiqued. We belong to a church that is wonderful at talking out to the world from its moral pulpit, wonderful, for example, on climate change, which you've just

talked about. Pope Francis on climate change, excellent. Pope Francis on migrants, excellent. On outreach to the poor, excellent. On women, atrocious. Women in the church, atrocious. On protections for children who are abused, very weak and lacking in credibility still. I was talking to Mary McAleese. Dr Rachel Newbury said, How wonderful to hear the voice of Mary McAleese. Dr Rachel Newbury said, how wonderful to hear the voice of Mary McAleese on this

morning. Lyrical, honest, humorous, self-deprecating. And Una wrote, amazing interview with a truly inspirational and brave woman. If you were listening on Tuesday you'll have heard the announcement that the

subject of this year's Women's Hour Power List is Our Planet. The search is now on for 30 women based in the UK who are making a real contribution to the environment. There will be a panel of judges who decide who makes the list. On Thursday, I spoke to two of them, Flo Hedlum, who's a horticulturist and garden designer, and Emma Howard-Boyd, who chairs the Environment Agency. How common is it to find female leaders in her field? One of the things that is so exciting about focusing on the whole issue of our planet is that it will be able to help us shine a spotlight on all of the brilliant women that are leading organisations with an environmental focus.

But I think the other thing that I'm hoping we'll see comes out of this emphasis is those women who are leading organisations where they can actually have a hugely positive impact on the environment without it necessarily being in the traditional sector. And I think that's one of the challenges we all face, those of us that are working on the environmental agenda, is making sure that the environment, climate change, is at the heart of everybody's decision making. Where, Flo, would you say power lies when it comes to protecting the planet that's a big question and power is a big word i think power lies actually right across the spectrum if you like it's a continuum so as well as people uh in really positions that whether making decisions about budget that can inform and instruct and can

systematic change i think further along the spectrum people who are working at local levels and people are working at the community level also can do things we can all do things in our life to actually make our environment that much more healthier and more sustainable emma i know you spent some years in financial services how does that experience contribute to your environmental concern? I started my career in mainstream finance but very quickly realized that one of the things that wasn't being factored into decision making was the environment agenda and wider factors. And so I switched to, in the beginning, focusing on green investment, making sure that what we were investing in through the funds that I was associated with, had a direct focus on environmental solutions.

But as time went on, and we're talking about a career of a few decades, it was really clear that we needed to move all of our investment decision making into looking at the issues of environment and climate change. And I think there's a real power that can lie within financial services. I'm working very closely at the moment with a campaign called Make My Money Matter, which is emphasising that if individuals and women in particular take control of their finances and think of it through an environmental lens, you can have 27 times as much of an impact on the environment as you would do working on your own carbon footprint and doing things like reducing the amount of flying that you're doing.

So there's a real power that sits within financial services. Flo, how did you come to horticulture? Well, it's a second career, actually. So I had worked in charities for over 20 years. And after I had my second daughter I realized it was time to do something different I was always walking around and sort of redesigning people's gardens and sort of sorting things out and people's gardens as well as my own and it just so happened that working part-time I found a course that I could pursue part-time and

so over over three years of working part-time studying part-time I eventually made the transition into gardening on the opening day of the London Olympics so it's always going to be a special day for me. There's been I think an increase in interest in community gardens during the virus what what do they offer in protecting the planet local level um they can really just increase the biodiversity um you know a lot of people now are thinking about making their gardens much more pollinator friendly but actually just having spaces where people can come together and grow a whole host of ornamentals but also produce as well it means that people are coming together and they're learning they're learning about you know and things that we can do at a very

micro level that can affect us in our lifestyle but also i think that radiates out as well you know so people talk about to this garden the word spread you know send a message to other people they can do it so i think it's a movement that is sort of ground up. Emma, what about big business? You know, some of those great companies that are big polluters. Where are the women there who are hoping to make positive change? We're seeing many women rise to the top of businesses. And I think it's really important to recognise that you can be outside a business as a campaigner working at a local level to encourage change. You also need individuals within business to bring about that change. And again, some of the work that I've done over recent years with the 30% Club has meant that we have got more women leaders at the top of organisations,

whether they're chief executives, chief finance officers, and this increasing recognition that impact on the environment, responding to some of the big challenges that we face face is absolutely part of their remit. I think all sectors still have a challenge with getting more women leaders, but there's no doubt that we're seeing huge developments with the number of women rising to the top. And with that comes this broader agenda as well. As judges for the Power List, what are you actually hoping to find flow? I'm hoping to actually be surprised, actually, by suggestions from sectors that I'm not familiar with.

But I'm also looking for people to really sort of champion local heroes, women who are working, you know, maybe, you know, therapeutic gardeners, working in wetlands, working in community centres, garden centres, women are actually sort of, you know, the backbone of the local environmental movement. And Emma? There's no doubt that when I'm visiting different places, visiting communities that have been flooded, there are some fantastic female community leaders. So it's making sure that we find those individuals, shine a spotlight on them, and give us all hope and encouragement that we can make a difference, whether it's at that local level, at a national level, and indeed influence the global agenda as

well. I was talking to Emma Howard-Boyd and Flo Hedlum. And as I said earlier, the Women's Hour 2020 Power List, Our Planet, is looking for 30 women who are making a significant positive contribution to the environment or the sustainability of the planet. You can find more details of who we're looking for on the website. There's a video there too. And the list will be announced in a live programme on Monday 16th November. If you'd like to make suggestions, you can email us through the Woman's Hour website. There's been a rise in websites and Facebook groups offering what's called known donation.

The term rather speaks for itself. It's where someone looking for sperm or egg donation can get to know their donor. Sarah Norcross is the director of the Progress Educational Trust, a charity which aims to improve choices for people who are affected by fertility problems and genetic conditions. Erica Tranfield and her wife have a donor-conceived child from a known donor. She runs Pride Angel, a fertility connections portal. And Natasha Fox is a donor-conceived adult who doesn't know the identity of her biological father. Jane spoke to them on Tuesday.

How does Sarah know there is a rise in known donation? Some figures just published today by the regulator, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, show that more women than ever before, either single women or in same sex relationships, are using licensed treatment. And I think, you know, it's, I didn't know that before this morning, you know, those figures from the regulator. But that then tallies with what people are seeing online in the proliferation of these organisations such as Pride Angel, the closed Facebook groups. You know, you could even find donors on Craigslist.

Just to be certain about what you've just discovered this morning, the HFEA figures you've discovered this morning say there's been a rise in fertility treatment that is correctly and properly regulated and you're saying there is also an increase in other forms of fertility treatment yes because we know that not everybody goes through a licensed clinic particularly single women and women in same-sex relationships because they don't necessarily need to because they can donor inseminate at home. And some prefer to do that for a number of reasons.

For example, the cost. Right. Okay, let's bring in Erica, because your mother to a donor conceived child from a known donor. Erica, why did you and your wife decide to do it this way? We wanted to meet with the donor, so we wanted to understand a little bit more about him, but most importantly, we wanted him to be in our daughter's life. We wanted a little bit more on top of that, for we wanted our daughter to be able to know his parents, so his mum and dad, her nanny and granddad. I see. And has that happened? It has indeed, yes. It took us four years to find the right donor. We created Pride Angel in 2009. We started to look in around 2012 and I fell pregnant

in 2017. Did you reject a number of prospective sperm donors before deciding on the man who you decided on in the end? We did indeed. There were many that we spoke with, but there were four main donors that we communicated with. The first one we tried for 12 months. What do you mean you tried for 12 months? We opted for home insemination. So we went down the route of getting the donor agreement drawn up, providing a letter of intent to the donor to explain what we intended to do with bringing up the child. He agreed and then we went for home insemination. Not so much for the cost, as Sarah mentioned, more so for we wanted it to be a personal experience. I wanted my wife to put it there so I could blame her when I was pushing the baby out. It was just a much more of a personal experience. Okay, yes. And what happened? So after 12 months with donor number one, it didn't work. So we thought perhaps there's

something here that we're missing. So we went for donor number two. He was a lovely gentleman, a very, very handsome. We would have had beautiful babies, but it transpired that he wanted to have more of a co-parenting relationship. Donor number three, his sperm was doing the backstroke and donor number four is our daughter's daddy. And he, the actual biological father of your daughter, doesn't live in Britain anymore? He doesn't know. So he moved over to the Middle East as I conceived. So it was the second attempt at conceiving. And it was then that he told us it was our last try. So not ideal, but I gather the fact that he's living abroad sort of suits you? To be honest, we wouldn't mind either way. So we

FaceTimed him at the weekend. So our daughter spoke with him and his partner. And we see his parents more frequently. So our daughter's seen her dad maybe two, three times, but she's seen her nanny and granddad about 10 times. And there are lots of questions here. And who am I to pass judgment? But I guess people will be wondering what she makes of this, what her level of understanding of this relationship is. Well, she understands that he's her dad. We've we've used the term daddy. Yeah. But she understands that she's got a mummy and a mama. OK. Natasha, you're somebody who would dearly love to know the identity of your biological father. You're 28 years old. I gather this isn't something that consumes every waking

moment of your life, but you are interested, to be clear, in finding out who your biological parent is. Yes, I've always been very curious to know who my donor was ever since I was a little girl. And even though I was a little girl. And even though I have a very happy and fulfilling career and family life, that's still a curiosity of mine that hasn't gone away. And it's still an important part of my life. How much time do you spend trying to track him down? I mean, in the age of online DNA testing,

I think the idea of lifelong guaranteed anonymity is no longer a realistic or possible for a lot of donors who donated in the 80s and 90s. So I don't spend every waking moment on it, but it's definitely something now because of online DNA testing, I'm able to explore that avenue. And what have you been able to discover so far? Well, so far, I've been very fortunate to have met a half sister on 23andMe, who's also donor conceived, and she was aware that she was donor conceived. And we've known each other for three years now, despite her living on the other side of the world. We meet up every year, we're in constant contact. And I'm very, I feel very lucky to have met her. Well, that's really significant, isn't it? That you have found that person. And I think people will be really interested in just how much it means to you. Yeah, it does mean a lot when you don't know anything about one side of your heritage growing

up. It really can, you know, just increase your own curiosity as you get older. But I think it's important to stress that not everybody feels the same way. I'm very curious, but I'm also, you know, happy in the knowledge that I was donor conceived and very proud of my mum for getting fertility treatment, you know, in the 1980s where she was told it wasn't a good idea. But bearing in mind how much it has brought to your life to know that you have a biological half-sister, I imagine knowing the identity of your father would have a colossal impact on you, wouldn't it? Yeah, I call him my donor because that's how I kind of associate his relationship with me, that description feels more comfortable. But I'd engage all donors to register with the HFEA and the donor-conceived registration

so they can give information that they're comfortable giving and they can participate in a system that has safeguards and structure and not just online DNA testing. So presumably you welcome the rise in known donations? Oh, absolutely. I think rise in known donations is definitely a positive thing because it means that donor-conceived people, the donors themselves and the parents of the children are all on the same page.

Yes, I mean, that would be a huge help, I would imagine. Thank you very much, Natasha. Sarah, this idea of a donor agreement, who regulates donor agreements? Who decides what's appropriate? Is it a legal document? No. So it's really a sort of understanding and it's a way of threshing out between you what you're expecting from this arrangement. So, you know, are you expecting to be a co-parent or are you expecting to just see the child once a year? You know, are you expecting to have a relationship with your parents or not? You know, if you've got views about discipline, education, religion, all those sorts of things. Well, presumably, let's say you're a man who is willing to donate sperm and willing to be a known donor.

You're going to have to get the consent of your own parents if you're going to commit your parents to the involvement, to an involvement in the life of a child they may not want to be involved with well this is it and it's it's good to talk about these things and also you know the donor um you know he may be married we've seen a progress educational trust cases where you know the wife has complained you know because she didn't know anything about this and so you know i feel like it's an act of adultery. Well, I mean, and there may be a financial cost as well. And there may be a financial cost, you know, and we've seen cases that have gone to court where, you know, the relationship between the parents and the donor has broken down, you know, but the donor had a relationship with the child, as did his parents. And we've seen

the grandparents, you know, getting a court order to be able to see the grandchildren because they've seen them for the first five years of their life. And, you know, the judges decided it's in their best interest to continue with that relationship. An incredibly complicated area. And, of course, what we need to say is that there is relationship breakdown in every sort of relationship and every sort of family set up. So let's not pretend there's

any gold standard here because there's complication everywhere you look, isn't there? Absolutely. They're no different from any other bunch of people. Life throws you curveballs. You don't know what's going to happen. Sarah Norcross, Erica Tranfield and Natasha Fox. And someone who didn't want us to use her name wrote, And Juliet wrote, benefits of no donation. More about the joys too please. A child can't have enough people who love and care about them in their lives. Proud of our queer family. Still to come in today's programme Shobhna Gulati on her book Remember Me in which she describes caring for her mother as she lost her memory. And in this season of mist and mellow fruitfulness, what's the difference between a pickle and a chutney and how best to make them? And a reminder that if you can't hear us every day at two minutes past ten, you can always subscribe to the podcast.

It's there every day. At the beginning of this month, you may have come across the story of Emily Hunt. She was filmed when she was asleep in an hotel room. A man was convicted of voyeurism, but it took her several years to secure that conviction, and Emily decided to waive her right to anonymity to fight the case. But what do you gain and what do you lose as a result of revealing your identity? Leona O'Callaghan also waived her right to anonymity when the man who abused her as a child was on trial and convicted. Rebecca, not her real name, doesn't want us to know who she really is.

She's pressing the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute a man who she says attacked and raped her. Why did Emily decide to go public? I think I very much needed something to come out of what happened to me. And I had expected that it would be fought in a straightforward way through the criminal justice system. So from the very beginning, when the police didn't take my case seriously, and the CPS declined to prosecute, I kept asking them to reconsider and asking and asking. And when eventually I just had no path forward within sort of the normal pathway in the criminal justice system, I had to sit down and think about how important it was to

me for there to be a measure of justice. And unfortunately, what I came up with was that I needed help paying for lawyers. And in order to do that, I was going to have to crowdfund. And if I was going to crowdfund, I was going to have to speak out. Leona, what made you make that decision? 10 years can can go and 15 years can can fly by and um i wanted mothers and parents to know who he was and what he's done and what he's capable of so that when they recognize him that um that i suppose they they would keep be able to to keep their children safe um and and know what he's i suppose what his his mindset might be because people like this they rely on silence and when you take away that silence you really disable them and you disable their power and so speaking out for me was taking

my power back you know but how hard was it to make that decision and think everybody is going to know who i am and what happened to me it was a process it wasn't even a decision it's not like you sit down and you make that choice once you make it every day for a while after you make it because you second guess yourself for me the hardest part was the effect it might have on my children because you have you lose control and for any survivor of abuse or rape having control I suppose is really important to us and not knowing what will be published not knowing when we're not knowing the spin it would take it and I suppose media times you know that it's sensationalized in ways that my children would would be hurt to read it you know um so it was for me a decision that I needed to make with them. They were different ages.

Some of them were older. I have three kids, so I think from 10 until about 18. And for me, it was making the decision around, well, was it OK for all of us? Was it the right decision for the four of us? How did the children cope with it? They coped just so well. I mean, they were the only people i listened to when i

when i when i made that decision i sat down with them and i told them um that i suppose i wouldn't be in control of of the detail that that uh would be spoken about and uh it was it was pretty horrific like what happened to me happened in a graveyard um the rapes happened in a graveyard so you know that they're they're quite scary images that nobody wants to give their children and i suppose for me it was a case of not wanting that that memory to be in their minds because it had haunted me for long enough however unfortunately they had already been affected by what how he had affected me because they met their mom a sick mum for for quite some time so

you'd suffered from depression hadn't you for a long time i had i'd suffered with depression and when he came back to the area i lived in i had slipped in my in my mental health and i had made a couple of um when i found out about another little girl that he was he was convicted of um she was only six and i i had a couple of suicide attempts and very serious ones i went into hospital for about six months i just couldn't cope i couldn't cope with um seeing him on the street and i couldn't cope with um the memories that came flooding back as flashbacks so um so they had already paid a high price but they they were so good about it. They were all on the same page and they said, no, mum, what he did to you was very, very wrong. And he deserves to be named and he deserves to feel ashamed.

And you did nothing wrong. So, you know, it's really important that others know what he's like and that if he ever does come out of jail that he's known for for what he does to children um i was so proud of them because that was a very um i suppose brave thing that for them to decide because obviously they have friends and they have insecurities like all other teens and children and um and it was very mature of them so so all so together the four of us decided let's do this and uh yeah there's been cost to it um in the sense of the the side of you know the the private the private details i suppose that you like your victim impact statement and things like that um that that would pay a price but i've also shown them resilience and i've shown my children the ability to bounce back I've shown them the ability to get over something as horrible as it is and and to to move on and not let it

define you and that you can still have an amazing life you know Rebecca if I can bring you in here why have you chosen to remain anonymous I think the first thing I'd say is huge kudos and respect to those who do waive their anonymity um for me I was attacked by a very violent man with um a a past um who's uh he's got a history of violence severe violence against women I am to this day still petrified that he may make an appearance in my life so if I was to start speaking out and he saw that, then I would be concerned for my own safety. He knows where I live. I'd be concerned for, you know, the protection of my family. And he did threaten me that if I ever told anybody what he would do. And, you know, I still live with that fear. So that the police can offer me no protection

um he would have to actually come and attack me for anything to happen um I have no protection and and as we know I am fighting the CPS because they dropped um the charges against him um I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of women in that situation so I have no protection um if I were to speak out and he is somebody that is vindictive what what has been the impact of your family I mean obviously the people close to you will know about this how have they been affected by it even though your name is not in the public arena um it it impacts everybody um you know I for a couple of years you know after trying to to cope and process what's happened um you're not functioning properly so you know um you know it's it has an impact not just on me but everybody that's around me I think

I was in probably you know a bit like a zombie I'm not able to to fully engage with life um also my parents were um witnesses in in the prosecution trying you know having to explain to your parents what's happened to you is the most heartbreaking thing um now I have been able to access brilliant trauma therapy through my employers um i know i'm the one that i that was directly impacted by that attack but it's the ripple effect of everybody else um they've had no no no support other than each other and it it tears families apart by i mean my dad's heartbroken. So huge impact. Emily, what about you? What's been the impact on your family of what happened to you being in the public arena?

It's gone a couple of different ways with both, you know, family and friends. So I'm also a mother. My daughter is 10. And this is not a conversation that we have had yet. She knows that mommy is trying to put more criminals in jail. She doesn't really understand the hows or the whys. She's really proud of me and is always proud of me, particularly when I speak out because she knows that I find doing press to be a bit difficult, but also that I find it to be really important. My mom and one of my sisters have been super supportive, but some other family members have just simply not understood why this is what happened to me to the video itself, the act of taking a video of somebody naked without their permission, became completely illegal earlier this year because of my case. And that is the thing that I'm absolutely proudest of.

So in waiving my anonymity, I've been able to change the world a little bit. Both you and Leona are now single, but I think have dated. I'm sorry, you laughed, so I kind of followed you because it's not funny. How has it affected potential relationships? I mean, I have had messages of support on one of the dating websites. Not an offer of a date, mind you, but somebody who said that they'd given money to one of my crowdfunding campaigns. Look, it's complicated stuff. It makes people feel uncomfortable, whether they don't understand or they think you've made too much of a big deal of it or they think you haven't made much of a big deal of it, or they think you haven't made enough of a big deal of it. You know, unfortunately, victims are judged on so many levels. And I think it just makes it really complicated to get to know someone when you have a Google profile like I do. So Rebecca and I are friends. And I put something out on Facebook last week saying, look, please, somebody set me up with somebody, you know, online dating is never going to work for me because I have a Google problem.

And people just don't don't get it. You know, I need somebody to introduce me to someone because it's a complicated story. And I'm a real person and I can't really be summed up on an online profile to be sure I doubt anybody. Leona, what about about you how have you fared in maybe managing to make another relationship oh I completely agree with Emily it's a bloody mess it really is like it's just a bit of a nightmare it's um like that I've tried the online dating and it all goes well but it's like do you say it beforehand do you wait because let's be honest on online like everybody googles people so you put in my name and it comes straight up and I what it basically boils down to is anybody that's going to be able to to to be in any sort of an intimate relationship with me needs to be a very strong

character a strong character to be able to know that there's a big difference between rape and sex um a strong character to know that just because they're attracted to somebody who was sexually assaulted doesn't mean that there's something wrong with it which is literally what one guy said he said what's what's wrong with me to say that you know i wanna i i'd love to take your clothes off and yet i know your history to know it feels wrong and i suppose you like that you You're just for me to meet somebody who would be compatible with me. I'd need them firstly to understand that my sense of safety is massive and that if I need to stop at any time, that's OK. And that can be hard. It could be hard for any bloke.

And secondly, that they need to have a lot of work done on themselves not to, because I have issues. I'm not great at relationships. I have trust issues. I don't necessarily react in the way that people that haven't been sexually assaulted would react when it comes to men. It's affected me in loads of ways. So when I do meet somebody, it'll have to be somebody that's a strong character and has done a lot of work on themselves to know that it can work, you know, because I've been married twice and it's affected both relationships. I was talking to Leona O'Callaghan, Rebecca and Emily Hunt.

Shobhna Gulati is an actor best known from Dinner Ladies and, of course, Coronation Street. She's written a memoir called Remember Me? Discovering My Mother As She Lost Her Memory. I lost my mother in November of last year and I thought to myself gosh I felt really connected to her so I began the journey of writing the book. I'd already started writing some elements of it because while I was looking after her, one of the things I did as a carer was sort of try and ignite her imagination. And she would recollect stories from her past and I would note them down. And what fascinated me about that time was the memories that she curated. I mean, it was almost as if she picked them and told me about them.

Well, she had led a most extraordinary life. I mean, oddly enough, the thing that surprised me most, and I suppose this illustrates my ignorance, she was born in Southport. Yeah, she was. She was born in Southport during the war. My grandparents had come over. My grandfather was one of the first officers after the British left. In the railways, he was an electrical engineer. So he was based up near Crewe, where the big exchange is. And yeah, mum was born in Southport. I don't know why Southport, poor old Southport.

It's not funny. I've spent many a happy day there. Her ashes are also scattered in Southport off the end of the pier. She wanted that specifically. Yeah. She was also a big, big fan of the soaps. I mean, she devoured them all, didn't she? Yes, she did. My father, when they arrived at Coronation Street, had just started.

So that was, what, 60 odd years ago. And even though, you you know obviously they spoke english absolutely did speak english and they uh my dad said to her you know it they have a funny way up north you know watch this program it's really interesting you'll get to know you know your neighbors and yeah she was hooked from day one there one. There's a bathos and pathos in Coronet Reads. So she really loved that. Yeah, well, of course, she must have been beside herself when you got a part in the soap. Yes, she was. I mean, you know, alongside all her favourite characters, she couldn't quite get over it. And she'd never sort of say, I love your character.

She'd always say that she loved a particular person the thing is is that um what was really lovely about being on Coronation Street when I had the children on on the soap opera yeah named one of them after my mum right and you know all those years later I'd find myself sitting watching Coronation Street with her dementia. And Asha, my screen daughter, would pop up on screen. She would be reminded of herself. I know that sounds really strange. But, you know, when you are caring for somebody who has dementia,

you have to find sort of very creative ways of dealing with yourself in that situation and dealing with those people who are really close to you. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you, if you don't mind, just simply advice from you about being with somebody with dementia, because there'll be lots of our listeners who are doing exactly that right now. How do you talk to them? How do you make the most of their memories? Well, first of all, you have to accept the kind of carer you are. And that's the first thing, really. You know, we can't be everything to everybody. So there's an acceptance that has to take place within yourself because it's really, really, really complicated, complicated thing. For me, as an actor, I started using my imagination and I love to cook. So I filled the house with delicious smells, you know, in a bid to encourage her to eat and to, you know, to sort of get her memory back to those smells that she really, you know, once used to love.

I'd ad lib, you know, when she'd forgotten something, I'd try and say, you know, I didn't want to say, but I already told you. Because, you know, you've got to care for that loved one and still retain their dignity. So I didn't, you know, if somebody kept telling me, oh, I've already told you, I thought to myself, well, that would be really, really wary. So I'd, you know, come up with some madcap story I mean it was really thinking on your feet like improv you know as an actor and you know I made jokes I tried to stimulate her her love her portal to life was the television so you know the television from adverts through to you know watching the same program over and through to, you know, watching the same programme over and over again, we'd find something within the programme. And, you know, she'd recall from

there and you'd go on that journey with her. That's why I wanted to share that with you. There's a lot of sadness in this as you watch your loved one, you know, incrementally lose their memory and their sense of themselves. But at the same time, time you know you can go with them on that journey well you find you can Shobhna if you're able but did you ever feel that you frankly were were losing yourself in all this yeah absolutely you know that I mean this is my first-hand experience of looking after her and the impact that had on my work on my relationships on on on our family um so destructive it was but but at the same time now I suppose I've I've worked through a lot of that and I tried to work through that whilst I was with my mum because it obviously it kept cropping up and you have to find a way of caring

for yourself because if you don't care for yourself you're you're going to be in you are going to be in trouble so I would take time to you know reach out for support and and talk to your friends I mean you need it because you can feel almost trapped in it too um it's a really hard decision to make to care for somebody who has this illness. It's not to be taken lightly, but you need the support and I'd reach out. There is support available and try and find some time. My sister used to make sure she went for a walk, for example, I mean. And it's really hard to sort of make those choices because you think you're going to miss something or you think you're going to, you know, something will happen. But, you know, the truth of the matter is that you have to,

you just have to, otherwise you'll no use to anybody. What really comes through the piece is, well, the intricacies of family life, to put it mildly, and the fact that your mum, well, you were a third child and you were a girl. Yeah. And your mum had also had a tough time as a young girl too. Yes, I think, you know, we all live with the patriarchy, don't we? Don't start me, Shobhna. And I think that, you know, given her cultural cultural background the onus was on her to produce a son and you know when I arrived I was the third the third girl you know obviously she did love me

but we never kind of said that to each other and I think it's a generational thing as well you know there's this there's a word in Hindi for daughter which is beti and there's a word in Hindi for daughter, which is beti. And there's a word for son, which is beta. And now they've kind of become combined, you know, grammatically. It doesn't really matter whether you're a beti or a beta. But for mum, you know, when she called me beta towards the end, I just thought, well, that's lovely. You know, finally I have, you know, no gender and I'm there for her and she realizes that. Shobhna Gulati was talking to Jane. As the weather begins to turn autumnal and we become aware of

that season of myths and mellow fruitfulness what to do with all that mellow fruit and vegetables? It is of course the time of year when chutneys and pickles are made to preserve what remains. But what's the difference between a chutney and a pickle and how do you do them well? Lizzie Collingham is a food historian who studied some of India's culinary history and has a new book coming out next month called The Biscuit. What is the difference between a chutney and a pickle? In India you would say a chutney for something that is fresh, a fresh relish that you prepare that day and eat the same day with your meal. So in Delhi when I stayed in Delhi I stayed in a wonderful guest house in Delhi and every day we had rice dal and two veg dishes and she always had the cook make a fresh green coriander and mint chilies

sometimes a bit of coconut ground up as a condiment to eat with your food and that would would be called a chutney some languages call a pickle a chutney but most of them would say an achar and a pickled preparation is something oil-based or sour or salty. Things like limes layered with salt and maybe some spices and put in the sun in jars to ferment. That would be a pickle. Now, at this time of year, my granny every year made pickle lily, which she absolutely loved. And she always used to say,

have a bit of pickle lily with it, love. And I was, no, thank you. How do you make a piccalilli? Well, I can tell you how the very first recipe to enter Britain in 1747 to be published in Hannah Glass's The Art of Cookery made plain and easy made piccalilli. So she basically, it's a very elaborate recipe. You have to salt slices of fresh ginger and long pepper which is a bit like chili and garlic and dry them then you boil mustard seeds and turmeric in white wine vinegar

then you cut up cabbage she says you can take anything cabbage cauliflowers cucumbers melons apples beans plums any old fruit stick them in a jar and pour the boiling mustard layer them up with the ginger and long pepper and garlic, which you've dried, and then pour the boiling vinegar over them and then just leave it. And then it would ferment into a pickle. And then interestingly as well,

she says as any vegetables come into season, you can add them to the pickle, to the brine, and top up with vinegar as you need to. So it's a kind of long lasting ever top up a ball pickly chutney thing that's how you really should then she yeah i don't think my granny put chili in hers probably all the rest of the stuff just just one other one other thing i think a lot of people at this time of year have too many tomatoes some of them yes are green how best to preserve them well that's nice green tomato chutney is lovely and that again is uh is i mean women have

been um pickling uh vegetables in their still rooms since the 17th century and they that's very english to use vinegar okay so the indians didn't have vinegar so you put them put them with spices and vinegar and but the the really indian touch there is to add sultanas now the british in india picked up all the different things that the indians would sprinkle on their curries and sultanas was one of them and they'd put it indiscriminately in anything Indian, halfway Indian. So with some nice spices, pickle some green tomatoes, add sultanas that go nice and fat. And then you've used up your green tomatoes that we've all got loads of.

Damson's another thing. If you want to go foraging, there's loads of damsons this year. They make a very nice chutney with ginger. So briefly, is it a good idea to have something slightly sweet to sometimes take the edge off what can be quite sharp? Yeah, I would. I actually personally would also have said no thank you to your granny's pick a lily. But damsons with stem ginger washed off with the sugar, the sugar washed off with a bit of sugar and a bit of vinegar oh yummy i was talking to lizzie collingham on monday live learn and thrive is what andrea mclean wants us to be able to achieve with the help of her new book this girl is on fire she'll be talking about how she's overcome

her own problems and how we can change life for the better by being honest with ourselves about what we really want that's on monday for me for today enjoy the rest of the weekend bye-bye my father-in-law lived alone everybody knew it late afternoon in the high plains of south africa a bloody encounter and a chase. If you attack on a farm, your chances of surviving is not good. In a community stalked by fear and racial tensions, an explosion of violence puts a family on trial. What did they do so bad to get that beating?

Bloodlands, presented by me, Andrew Harding, is available on BBC Sounds. Just search for Bloodlands and download all five episodes now. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long

story. Settle in. Available now.