Woman's Hour - The Woman's Hour Power List 2020, US Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, Known Donation

Episode Date: September 22, 2020

Today we launch the Woman’s Hour Power List 2020 - Our Planet. We will be looking for 30 women based in the UK who are making a significant positive contribution to the environment or the sustainability of our planet. It will showcase inspirational initiatives and stories that are bringing about real change at all levels of society – from influencing global policy and changing human behaviour, to inventing eco-friendly products, spearheading scientific research, volunteering in community gardens, and inspiring a deep love of the natural world. Jane is joined by two of the judges - Lucy Siegle and Zunaira Malik - to discuss who we’re looking for and how listeners can tell us who they think should be in the running. In 2016 Ilhan Omar became the United States’ first Somali-American lawmaker, joining the Minnesota House of Representatives as a Democrat. Two years later she In became one of the first two Muslim women elected to US Congress. She’s 37 and has described herself as ‘America’s hope and the President’s nightmare.’ In May this year George Floyd, an unarmed black man was killed by police in her home city of Minneapolis, sparking protests across the world. Her book is This is What America Looks Like: My Journey from Refugee to Congresswoman. There’s been a rise in websites and Facebook groups offering Known Donation in recent years, where a person seeking to conceive uses a sperm or egg donation from someone they know or get to know before the treatment. What’s behind it, and what are the pros and cons of this method of assisted conception? We discuss with Sarah Norcross, Director of the Progress Educational Trust; Erika Tranfield, the mother of a donor-conceived child from a known donor; and Natasha Fox, a donor-conceived adult who does not know the identity of her biological father.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi there, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday, the 22nd of September 2020. It is, hello, a very good morning to you. Now, we are going to be positive on the programme today. Perhaps not easy after you've heard that news bulletin, but we're going to try. We are launching the Woman's Hour Power List for 2020 in a moment or two. Very much need your involvement on that one. So please stand by. Later on today, we're talking about the rise in so-called known donations. If you've had this

form of fertility treatment or you'd like to have it, make sure you're listening to the programme around about 25 past 10 this morning. And we also have another very important and powerful voice with us today, that of Ilhan Omar, Congresswoman for Minnesota. President Trump's not keen on her. You can make your own mind up when you hear what she's got to say on Woman's Hour today. She's written a book called This Is What America Looks Like. Ilhan Omar, My Journey from Refugee to congresswoman. Really interesting. And she's

with us today as well. So it's the fifth Woman's Hour Power List kicking off today. And we would have a drumroll if we could afford one, but you know, things are really difficult. So we haven't. So I'm here to tell you that the Power List for 2020 is all about our planet. And we have with us this morning, two of our judging panel, Lucy Siegel, the environmental journalist and broadcaster, and Zanera Malik, who works for Action for Conservation. And we'll say a big good morning to them both. Zanera, good morning to you. And Lucy's with us as well. Lucy, hello. Hello. I'm so excited. We're all excited. We are socially distanced. And let's face it, I'm not going to have anybody in the studio with me,

apart from the cooker, for a very long time to come. So we're making the most of it this morning. Also with us are our colleague and the Woman's Hour producer, Anna Lacey. Now, Anna, you are in charge of the Woman's Hour Palace this year. Why have we decided on our planet? Well, we've decided a couple of reasons. First one being it's pretty grim out there. California's on fire. We've got extinction issues, as David Attenborough was telling us the

other night, biodiversity is declining. But there are an awful lot of women out there who are making a difference and not just at the top levels levels you know sitting on panels working in business working as like professors in science you've got people working at grassroots levels who are you know making a difference in communities so we want to celebrate that now the big reveal program is going to be in the middle of november november the 16th what we want from you is suggestions women that you know about they could be from your street from your town from your city they have to be what's the criteria i know they've got to be british based haven't they yes we want people based in the uk because obviously there are people

all over the world doing amazing amazing work for conservation in the environment but our list is going to be 30 women there will be 30 people in this country who are doing great things. So if you know one of them, yeah, we want your suggestions. OK, we want the suggestions. They're going to be put to our judging panel. And the big reveal, just to put that date in your diary, is November the 16th. Also on that judging panel, alongside Zanera and Lucy, we've got Emma Howard-Boyd, the chair of the Environment Agency, and the gardener Flo Hedlum.

And also Alice Larkin, professor of climate science and energy policy. So a formidable lineup. They'll be going through all your suggestions. You can email the programme, of course, via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. You can get involved on Twitter and Instagram as well at BBC Women's Hour. Use that hashtag WHPowerList. That's all important. Lucy, you're

a woman who gets angry rightly over a number of important things. What are you cross about right now? Okay, I'm really cross this morning because it was revealed last night um uh by journalist fiona harvey in the guardian that the cop 26 senior team the negotiating team for our climate future cop 26 is being held in glasgow and it is all male and that's because well that's because of of a structural sexism within climate politics, I think.

And it is a massive missed opportunity because we look back at climate negotiations. Some of the really famous names that have come through in recent times who brought us the Paris Agreement are people like the Danish politician Connie Hedegaard and Christiana Figueres, the Costa Rican diplomat. And we know there's such an abundance of talented women working in the civil service, working in policymaking, working in climate politics. And so that's what I'm furious about. But my fury is tempered by the fact that we are launching this this eco power list. Right. OK. It's helping, we're helping. It's so helpful. OK, Woman's Hour presenter makes statements suggesting women are more interested in the environment than men.

Shock. But maybe I'm right if I were to say that. Yes, I mean, there is an interest. It's interest and self-interest, isn't it? And when you approach the nature and climate crisis there are so many facets within that there's opportunities there's opportunities to make money and predict what's going to happen in the future so there's entrepreneurial innovation opportunities and i don't think that any of the brilliant women that we are going to discover and

and talk about during this process are all motivated by doing the right thing or being good or whatever. But there does seem to be historically from Rachel Carson, who wrote Silent Spring in the 1960s, to the women protesters and indigenous communities who threw their arms around trees, there's an understanding of what we need as humans to exist on this planet. And it's a protective but pragmatic. I don't know if it's an instinct, but I do think that women are very, very good at understanding all the complexity and the holistic view that you need to have

of all these connected ecosystems. And yet we, as as a country couldn't find a woman to attend COP in when did you say it was in November yeah I see the shake in my voice there yes you do it's really quite worked up if I can put it that way COP we should say exactly what COP is um COP is the is the mechanism so how do we get to Paris how do we cut the climate agreement COP is the bringing together of all the nations. Every nation on earth is signatory to the Paris Agreement, apart from two, the US and Saudi Arabia. And all of these diplomats and climate specialists will come to Glasgow. And well, or maybe it will

be virtual, who knows, but it will be under the auspices of COP. And we will do a stock take of where emissions are and where they need to get to. It's been billed as the most important environmental summit in the history of the Earth. That's quite a big build up you've given it. I know. Zanera Malik, you now work, your job is

working for Action for Conservation. You're in your 20s aren't you? Yes I am. Congratulations to you. I've already asked you this i'm going to ask you again did you have a moment when you suddenly thought this is the area for me i need to do this for a living um i was speaking to you about this um earlier so i didn't have a traditional sort of study the environment and sort of get into conservation and environmental education. But I think it was a mixture of experience from when I was younger,

being sort of wowed by nature, which I'm sure a lot of us... Where did you grow up? I grew up in a town called Luton. I was actually born in Pakistan and I grew up in Luton, which is in Bedfordshire. So we are actually surrounded by all these beautiful hills we've got the Chiltern Hills but I never really had I never really went into them um but it was this one experience in Snowdonia which we went um with my high school um camp there for the

weekend and I realized wow this you know nature is powerful it's it's amazing um which sounds a little bit cliched but I think everyone has these sort of or most people have these sort of small experiences in nature where they feel connected um to then go on to do these you know amazing things that they do um yeah so I would I would I would put my finger on that if I had to pick um but it was a mixture of of that and then as I grew older and being fascinated by how the world works from geopolitics to how do earthquakes happen yeah um all of that really um and then as I grew older I kind of started understanding more um about how humans are

connected to the environment and are really sort of delicate intricate relationships um which are very personal to us I think, and how we view the environment, and how Lucy was saying how what we take from it, how we use it. Yeah, I think that was that was it. Okay. And Lucy, obviously, at the moment, we are dominated by one thing and one thing only. What has the impact of COVID been on the environment and on the work of women trying to do their bit for the environment, particularly in this country? Well, it's been very hard for lots of women. And I think we know because their workload has increased overall. And then it can be very hard, particularly for volunteers and for campaigners who've been organising on a local level to fit all that in

with all the family commitments, homeschooling, all of that kind of thing. And I have spoken to a lot of organisers who are so dedicated, whether it's working with plastic waste or looking after a nature reserve, not being able to congregate and come together. a lot of them have moved online using social media. They have had lots of virtual meetings. You know, we're all sick of Zooms, but they're making them work. And I think the ingenuity of a lot of women, particularly in the volunteering sector, campaigning space, in keeping people together and keeping them focused. And that's the kind of woman you might like to suggest for our power list. Oh, yes. And there are so many amazing activists.

We were talking before, actually, before we came on air, about what qualities people have and just that doggedness and that absolute commitment to the issue. And I can start a conversation with somebody, a local activist or defender, and they will know quite minute detail about different polymer types. Like they're experts on like different sorts of waste, different sorts of plastic, different sorts of bird species. And it's that focus and that drive that we really want to celebrate in this list. Right. Now, some of the names will be obvious and might well be known to millions of people listening to Radio 4.

But we want from you now the names of exactly that woman that Lucy was referencing, the person who is absolutely pivotal in your part of the world in doing her bit to enhance the environment for everybody. So if you can think of anyone who'd be suitable, let us know what your suggestions for the 2020 Women's Hour Power List are. You can do it on social media, at BBC Women's Hour, Twitter and Instagram.

Use the hashtag WHPowerList. But actually, I think if you really want to tell us about somebody who is from your part of the world, who might not be known anywhere else, then an email would be better and you can email us now via our website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour and just perhaps put in the subject bar power list and we'll know exactly what you're talking about the big reveal program is on november the 16th we've got our judges two of them here with us already lucy and zanera also

involved emma howard boyd of the environment agency and the gardener flo hedlum they're both got our judges, two of them here with us already, Lucy and Zanera, also involved Emma Howard-Boyd of the Environment Agency and the gardener Flo Hedlum. They're both talking to Jenny on Woman's Hour on Thursday of this week. And also one of the judges, the Professor of Climate Science and Energy Policy, Alice Larkin. I'm sure she'll be on Woman's Hour before November the 16th as well. Please do get involved. This is all about you because you'll know these women. We can't know everybody. And at the moment, I mean, the thing that is haunting me, Lucy, is that he pretty much wade through a sea of discarded disposable masks, don't you, everywhere. That's the doom and gloom of 2020. Let's try to make this a positive thing. Yes, but also let's think about all the birds that people have seen during lockdown

and all the bathing in nature and they've realised the resonance of that power. Power. This is the hour of power. And this is the Woman's Hour 2020 Power List. It is called this year, Our Planet. And we want your involvement. You know what you have to do.

Thank you very much. Thank you all. Brilliant to see you. Although, as I said to Lucy earlier, and it is a line I've used before, it's just brilliant to see anybody. Right. Now, let's hear from Ilhan Omar, a headline-making US politician, one of the first two Muslim women elected to Congress back in 2018. Now, she calls herself America's hope and the president's nightmare. She's 37, she's a Democrat, and she now represents Minnesota's 5th District. In May of this year, George Floyd, of course,

an unarmed black man, was killed by police in her home city of Minneapolis, sparking protests all over the world. Now, in the past, President Trump has called Ilhan Omar, well, he's asked her to go home, not even asked her, he's told her. And when he spoke at a campaign rally in Minneapolis last week, he talked about her again. This time he called her an extremist. I asked her why the president seemed to continually target her. I mean, I think as a black Muslim immigrant woman,

these are all of the identities that I have that he has used to weaponize and demonize. And it's just really quite fascinating in so many ways. a particular anger and vitriol towards those identities and to now have it be presented in one person serving in Congress, you know, it's sort of triggering him. Yeah, you literally, you think you trigger him simply by being you and being where you are. It certainly does. I mean, he was just recently here in my home state. And he, you know, was speaking to a crowd, talking about refugees in a way that sort of really shows his limited understanding of who is a refugee, because he thinks that's synonymous with being a Somalian Minnesota, even though we have refugees across the world. And then he says, you must be having a good time with them. How did Ilhan

get elected? And so he just doesn't have understanding of who Minnesota is, doesn't have an understanding of who refugees are. And he certainly doesn't have an understanding of who I am and why I got here. Well, in response to that, you tweeted, this refugee is going to have a good time voting you out of office. He may, of course, lose the presidency, but there are still millions of Americans who, particularly when it comes to the economy, do put their faith in Donald Trump? Yes, there are pockets within the country, obviously, who have put aside the health of our democracy, who've put aside decency and unity for everything that they themselves are gaining from his presidency.

And it's really appalling. And, you know, we do have work to do in the next 40 some days to have a conversation not only with our base, with our supporters, but with the rest of the American people and remind them what his presidency has produced. We have over 200,000 people who have now lost their lives because of his incompetency in dealing with the coronavirus, including my own father. And we are seeing, you know, mass unemployment, financial crises, so many people who are unable to pay their rent, their mortgages. And, you know,

we do now have an opportunity to present a case of what our country could be without him. Your fellow Congresswoman, also very, very controversial figure, but hugely admired as well, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I've got a quote from her. She says, we need to focus on voting for Joe Biden. I don't care if you like him or not. Do you share what appear to be her misgivings about Joe Biden as a candidate? We have a lot to do in this election cycle. And for many of us, it is not about personalities. It's about what's at stake for our democracy. It's about what's at stake for so many people.

Right now, with the death of the very iconic Justice Ginsburg, we are looking at real threats to our voting rights, real threats to reproductive rights, real threats to labor rights, real threats to reproductive rights, real threats to labour rights, real threats to immigrants. And we now have an opportunity to make sure those threats don't become too fortuitous. Yes. Forgive me, that doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of Joe Biden. It's not a ringing endorsement of Joe Biden. It's an endorsement of what is possible for us and what it means for us to save our democracy from a tyrant that does not belong in the White House that we've impeached. And we continue to see actions by him that confirm reasons beyond what we impeached him for.

Can we talk about who's going to replace Ruth Bader Ginsburg? Donald Trump has said it will be a woman. Is that in any way something that gives you a certain amount of pleasure, at least? No. We know that whoever he picks is going to be ideologically to the right. People who are extreme, who again will threaten our voting rights, who will threaten our reproductive rights, who will threaten our brothers and sisters in the LGBTQ community and trans folks, people who will threaten our labour rights and immigrants don't belong in the Supreme Court and certainly should not be controlling one of the strongest branches in our government. Minnesota. Obviously, it's a place that's been very much in all our minds for the last couple of months after what happened to George Floyd and his dreadful and very public murder. How are things on the ground now? We are on the mend. Minnesotans are very resilient and Minneapolis has been through quite a lot. We have shown up for one another in the most beautiful ways.

And, you know, there's a lot of work still to be done, whether it is in rebuilding physical spaces, rebuilding people's lives and rebuilding, you know, hope in a system that has failed them time and time again. Do you actually fundamentally believe that the entire local police force should just be disbanded? You should just pack it in, get rid of them and start all over again? I certainly do. A majority of the residents in Minneapolis don't have favorable opinions of the Minneapolis Police Department. They've lost relationships with the other institutions that they're supposed to govern with. The Minneapolis City Council has come out in support of dismantling. We have a police department that fails to do its basic job. They haven't solved half of the homicides.

I mean, this is an institution that shouldn't exist as is. And, you know, for many of us who have lived through many of the turbulent times in Minneapolis with the police department have known this. And now a lot of the residents are coming to understand what it means to really reckon with a very incompetent and trustworthy and brutal police department. You grew up actually in rather a comfortable home in Mogadishu in Somalia, and you were just a little girl when the civil war broke out there. Initially, what did your family do? My family was, you know, mostly middle class. And I think that understanding of what that comfort meant

really is what drives me to not be complacent in any comforts that I have. You know, I remember talking to my father and grandfather years later after we had fled the Civil War and asking them, why didn't people do anything? And for them, it was clear understanding that there were things happening, but it wasn't personally impacting them. And that was true for so many people. And that complacency in a system that was brutalizing folks ultimately led to the collapse of that nation. And it is important for us to never be complacent. We do have an opportunity now to live in a democracy where you are more free

to speak your mind and exercise your patriotic right to dissent. And I continue to do that and hold that truth. Now, there's some interesting points in your book, but I think the bit of the book that surprised me a little and will be of real interest to our audience is your interest in and admiration for Margaret Thatcher. Now, I can guarantee if you want to get a row going in Britain, there are two words that you can utter that will get one going, and they are Margaret and Thatcher. So why did she mean a great deal to you? I don't think that's an exaggeration. I mean, when you are a young person growing up around the world, and you are not exposed to too many women who rise in politics, in what we say in a man's world, you tend to know of the few that do. And my father and many folks talked about her as the iron lady.

And because I was defiant and resilient, they often called me that. And so that's where my connection to her and her ability to navigate a system that wasn't created for her or made it easy for her to succeed comes from. Now, you mentioned your late father. And of course, as you've already said, he died in June of COVID. He was only 67. I wonder actually whether you personally, because there are so many other things going on, whether you've really had a chance to grieve for him. I have not. My father got diagnosed with COVID two days after George Floyd was murdered. And, you know, in the midst of the crisis of the aftermath of George Floyd, my father was quarantined in a hospital and we were trying to navigate that new reality as a family. And to go through something like that, as you are not only a daughter of someone who's dying, but also a daughter of a community that is

in pain, not only suffering from the pandemic in itself, but also suffering, you know, financially and dealing now with systemic racism and the brutality that comes from those who were supposed to protect and serve you, was quite painful. And it will take some time, I think, for me to get the headspace to actually mourn my father's death. It's just been one thing after another. Can I just ask about the coronavirus in the States? I'm not suggesting for one minute that Britain doesn't have its own very real problems here. But do you sense that things have peaked in the States? Or could, I mean, as you've already mentioned, that figure? You know, this month you might have it under control and then there's a spike next month. And that's because we don't have enough tests. There's no nationwide mass testing that's taking place. There is no singular plan across the country on how to curb the spread of the coronavirus. My colleague from Connecticut, Johanna Hayes,

was just diagnosed yesterday or the day before with COVID-19. And she spoke of how her and her staff struggled to find tests. And if you can imagine a member of Congress and their staff is been from Republican supporters, people who might be tempted to vote for Donald Trump? Where does your real opposition come from? I mean, the term real in that is significant, right? I do have a significant opposition from Republicans, but that doesn't really impact my work, my elections, or my ability to serve my constituents. I don't know if they know that, but that is the truth. And there is an opposition, you know, within the community when you are first. It is very challenging because everybody has an idea of what their first should look like and how they should present themselves, what they should advocate for and what policy positions they should take.

And so there is an opposition there. But I think the greatest opposition that I face really comes from misogyny and it's rooted in misogyny and patriarchy. And it brings me back to sort of a quote that a great woman that I admire once used, and that's Shirley Gism, who has inspired me and many other women to run for office. She was the first, just remind our listeners who she was. Yeah, she was the first Black woman to serve in Congress. And she was the first Black woman to run for the presidency. And she said, although it's challenging to be Black in the United States. You know, I'm paraphrasing. She certainly had opposition in regards to that.

But the greatest challenge she faced came because she was a woman. And that remains to be true for me in so many ways. This time next year, who will the President of the United States be? Well, it won't be Donald Trump. Our hope is that Joe is the President, Vice President Joe Biden is the President. I mean, it could be that Kamala Harris is the President this time next year, couldn't it? It could. And that's where we left it. That was the conversation I had with Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, author of a book called This Is What America Looks Like. A formidable, very impressive young woman.

So good to have her on the programme. Your thoughts on that, welcome, of course, at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email the programme, as ever, via the website. Now, there has been a rise in websites and facebook groups offering so-called known donation in recent years this is where fertility treatment involves people using somebody that they know for a sperm or less likely an egg donation sarah norcross is the director of the progress Educational Trust. Erica Tranfield is somebody who has with her wife a donor conceived child from a known donor. She runs an organisation called Pride Angel, which is a fertility connections portal.

And we'll talk to Natasha Fox, who is a donor conceived adult who doesn't know the identity of her biological father. Sarah Norcross, first of all, the Progress Educational Trust, what is it exactly? So we're a charity which aims to improve choices for people who are affected by infertility and genetic conditions. And through our work, we want people to make informed decisions. OK, so you're not pushing anybody in any particular direction. You're about an understanding. Yeah, we have no agenda on this.

No, I'm just checking. I think it's probably worthwhile checking that you don't have an agenda. Okay then, the rise in known donation. How can we be certain it's happening for a start? Well, I think it's sort of looking at the whole picture. So some figures just published today by the regulator, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, show that more women than ever before, either single women or in same-sex relationships, are using licensed treatment. And I think, you know, I didn't know that before this morning, you know, those figures from the regulator. But that then tallies with what people are seeing online in the proliferation of these organisations such as Pride Angel, the closed Facebook groups.

You know, you could even find donors on Craigslist. You know, the Internet is a a fantastic thing ways to find people right so just to be certain about what you've just discovered this morning the hfea figures you've discovered this morning say there's been a rise in fertility treatment that is correctly and properly regulated and you're saying there is also an increase in other forms of fertility treatment yes because we know that not everybody goes through a licensed clinic particularly single women and women in same-sex relationships because they don't necessarily need to because they can donor inseminate at home and some prefer to do that for a number of reasons. For example, the cost.

Right. OK, let's bring in Erica, because your mother to a donor conceived child from a known donor. Erica, why did you and your wife decide to do it this way? We wanted to meet with the donor. So we wanted to understand a little bit more about him. But most importantly, we wanted him to be in our daughter's life. We wanted a little bit more on top of that for we wanted our daughter to be able to know his parents so his mum and dad, her nanny and granddad. I see and has that happened? It has indeed yes. It took us four years to find the right donor. We created Pride Angel in 2009. We started to look in around 2012. And

I fell pregnant in 2017. Did you reject a number of prospective sperm donors before deciding on the man who you decided on in the end? We did indeed. So there were four main donors. There were many that we spoke with, but there were four main donors that we communicated with. The first one we tried for 12 months. What do you mean you tried for 12 months? So we opted for home insemination. So we went down the route of getting the donor agreement drawn up, providing a letter of intent to the donor to explain what we intended to do with bringing up the child. He agreed and then we went for home insemination. Not so much for the cost, as Sarah mentioned, more so for we wanted it to be a personal experience. So we wanted, I wanted my wife to put it there so I could blame her when I was pushing the baby out.

It was just a much more of a personal experience. Okay, yes. And what happened? So after 12 months with donor number one, it didn't work. So we thought perhaps there's something here that we're missing. So we went for donor number two. He was a lovely gentleman, very, very handsome. We would have had beautiful babies, but it transpired that he wanted to have more of a co-parenting relationship. Donor number three,

his sperm was doing the backstroke, and donor number four is our daughter's daddy. And he, the actual biological father of your daughter, doesn't live in Britain anymore? He doesn't know. So he moved over to the Middle East as I conceived. So it was the second attempt at conceiving. And it was then that he told us it was our last try. So not ideal, but I gather the fact that he's living abroad sort of suits you? To be honest, we wouldn't mind either way. So we FaceTimed him at the weekend. So our daughter spoke with him and his partner. And we see his parents more frequently. So our daughter's seen her dad maybe two, three times, but she's seen her nanny and

granddad about 10 times. And there are lots of questions here and who am I to pass judgment but I guess people will be will be wondering what she makes of this what her level of understanding of this relationship is. Well she understands that he's her dad we've we've used the term daddy to be in keeping with understanding from her level. Obviously, you've got a lot of characters on the TV where they talk about mummy and daddy. But she understands that she's got a mummy and a mama. And then there's the daddy who lives abroad and plays a part, though not a very big one, in her life.

Yes. Yeah, OK. Natasha, you're somebody who would dearly love to know the identity of your biological father. You're 28 years old. I gather this isn't something that consumes every waking moment of your life. But you are interested, to be clear, in finding out who your biological parent is. Yes. I've always been very curious to know who my donor was ever since I was a little girl. And even though I have a very happy and fulfilling career and family life, that's still a curiosity of mine that hasn't gone away. And it's still an important part of my life.

How much time do you spend trying to track him down? I mean, in the age of online DNA testing, I think the idea of lifelong guaranteed anonymity is no longer a realistic or possible for a lot of donors who donated in the 80s and 90s. So I don't spend every waking moment on it, but it's definitely something now because of online DNA testing, I'm able to explore that avenue. And what have you been able to discover so far? Well, so far, I've been very fortunate to have met a half-sister on 23andMe, who's also donor-conceived, and she was aware that she was donor-conceived. And we've known each other for three years now. Despite her living on the other side of the world, we meet up every year. We're in constant contact, and I'm very, I feel very lucky to have

met her. Well, that's really significant, isn't it, that you have found that person. And I think people will be really interested in just how much it means to you. Yeah, it does mean a lot when you don't know anything about one side of your heritage growing up. It really can, you know, just increase your curiosity as you get older. But I think it's important to stress that not everybody feels the same way. I'm very curious, but I'm also, you know, happy in the knowledge that I was donor conceived and very proud of my mum for getting fertility treatment. And, you know, in the 1980s where she was told it wasn't a good idea. But bearing in mind how much it has brought to your life to know that you have a biological half-sister, I imagine knowing the identity

of your father would have a colossal impact on you, wouldn't it? Yeah, I call him my donor because that's how I kind of associate his relationship with me, that description feels more comfortable. But I'd engage all donors to register with the HFEA and the donor conceived registration so they can give information that they're comfortable giving and they can participate in a system that has safeguards and structure and not just online DNA testing. This is a government funded. Yeah. So presumably you welcome the rise in known donations. Oh, absolutely. I think rise in known donations. Oh, absolutely. I think rise in known donations is definitely a positive thing because it means that donor conceived people, the donors themselves and the parents of the children are all on the same page.

Yeah, I guess. Yes. I mean, that would be a huge help, I would imagine. Thank you very much, Natasha. Sarah, this idea of a donor agreement, who regulates donor agreements? Who decides what's appropriate? Is it a legal document? No. So it's really a sort of understanding and it's a way of threshing out between you what you're expecting from this arrangement so you know are you expecting you know to be a co-parent or are you expecting to just say you know to see the child once a year and you know are you expecting to it to have a relationship with your parents or not um you know if you've got views about discipline education religion all those sorts of things. Well, presumably, let's say you're a man who is willing to donate sperm and willing to be a known donor. You're going to have to get the consent of your own parents if you're going to commit your parents to the involvement, to an involvement in the life of a child they may not want to be involved with.

Well, this is it. And it's good to talk about these things. And also, you know, the donor, you know, he may be married, you know, he's got to talk to his wife about this you know we've seen a progress educational trust cases where you know the wife has complained you know because she didn't know anything about this and so you know i feel like it's an act of adultery well i mean and there may be a financial cost as well and there may be a financial cost as well. And there may be a financial cost. And we've seen cases that have gone to court where the relationship between the parents and the donor has broken down. But the donor had a relationship with the child, as did his parents. And we've seen the grandparents getting a court order to be able to see the grandchildren because they've seen them for the first five years of their life and the judge

decided it's in their best interest to continue with that relationship An incredibly complicated area and of course what we need to say is that there is relationship breakdown in every sort of relationship and every sort of family set up so let's not pretend there's any gold standard here because there's any gold standard here

because there's complication everywhere you look, isn't there? Absolutely. They're no different from any other bunch of people. You know, when they get along, everything is fantastic and brilliant and positive. But when, you know, when life throws you curveballs, you don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, when those stresses come out, people don't behave as well or as predictably, you know, and they're no different. No, but know, when those stresses come out, people don't behave as well or as predictably, you know, and they're no different. No, but when you hear Natasha talking about the impact it would have on her life to know who her biological father is, it's very moving, isn't it? And this is very important. It's incredibly important. And it's, you know, Natasha is one of the people who doesn't even have an identity release donor. So for people in the UK who don't have a known donor, they have what we

call an identity release donor, so that their information is recorded with the HFEA. And that when the child turns 18, they can then access identifiable information about them. Just in brief, I mean, this is something Women's Hour has discussed. This is the law change of, what was it, 2005? It came in 2004, the law changed. 2005, it came into operation. So in 2023, those people will be turning 18 and will be able to access that information. That was Sarah Norcross.

She is the director of the Progress Educational Trust. And we also talked to Erica Tranfield, mother of a donor conceived child from a known donor, as she described, and Natasha Fox, a donor conceived adult, who, as I thought she rather brilliantly expressed, would like to know who her biological father is. Now, let's go to your emails. Let's start actually on the subject of known donors. Dear Woman's Hour, where is the balance, says this anonymous emailer. There are thousands of kids brought up by two mothers with an anonymous donor. We have two and neither has any interest in the donor as they have two parents already nothing is missing says anonymous yes absolutely take your point i mean natasha couldn't have been clearer um that she was speaking for herself and about herself this was her experience and those were her feelings i'm not saying for one minute that um everybody in that situation feels the same. Dina on email says, My father was not known to me.

Getting to know him 40 years ago opened up a whole load of issues I happily would have avoided, but it did open up a world to me. I moved to his country where I made my life. I spend little time with him now, though. An email from Amy who says, I have a child from a known donor, a friend, and it's been both the best and the most difficult arrangement imaginable. I've had moments of real stress as he became more of a co-parent than originally planned. It's taken me a while to see the benefits rather than focusing on him interfering. I was ill in 2016, and it did help to know that if I died,

my son would still have a parent. As my son gets older, it's sometimes difficult to explain things to him. He's convinced that I must have been married to his dad as he's picked up some very fixed ideas from his schoolmates. It really is swings and roundabouts, she says. Sometimes I envy my friends who used unknown donors as they have more parenting decision-making freedom. But then, on the other hand,

I've got the occasional weekend off and they don't. More than anything, my son loves his dad and vice versa. And ultimately, that makes it all good with me. I mainly feel lucky to live at a time when there are so many different routes to parenthood. I think that's a brilliant email, which really just expresses all the ambivalence and the difficulty around this area. Amy, thank you very much for that and the best of luck to you and to your son. Let's talk about the power list.

Really, I don't want to read out the we've had lots, by the way, and thank you. I don't want to read out the emails now with your suggestions for the Women's Hour Power List 2020. But I can just alert you to the fact that all you need to know is on the Women's Hour website. There are different categories as well. We're looking for decision makers, innovators, communicators, campaigners and volunteers. 30 women is what we're looking for from all over the UK. They have to be based in the UK, but their work can be anywhere in the world. They just have to be people, women, who are making a significant and positive contribution to the environment or the sustainability of our planet. Couldn't be more important, could it? Fiona, though, takes issue, and she isn't alone uh with my with my pronunciation my enunciation uh and she says actually what is our planet do you mean our can somebody try pronouncing the word our and then our together please they are not supposed

to sound the same it's a real affectation, the king of which, according to our correspondent, Fiona, is Tim Wannacott. So I'm going to go back to Woman's R when our team is discussing our planet. Well, Fiona, do you know what? You're right. Because when you made me say R and our, you are right. And I've already resigned. So I can't do more than that, actually. I'm in this wonderful position. But I will try to get it right between now and the end of the year. Thank you, Fiona. You know, when I think about it, you are spot on. I'm going to make that something I concentrate on. Now, Ilhan Omar was interesting to many of you, but you won't be surprised to hear that it was her admiration for Margaret Thatcher that irked some of you.

Does this congresswoman not know how Margaret Thatcher polarised society, how she had no time for minorities or even majorities like women? Your female American congresswoman admired Margaret Thatcher. Well, the biggest barrier I'm sure she knows in politics is money. Margaret Thatcher made sure she married well to ensure she'd go as far as she could in politics without bothering to take any other women with her. Some of us cannot stop getting angry when they hear this woman's name mentioned. That's from Kathleen. I meant it when I said that there's no name in Britain that gets a conversation or indeed a row going as quickly as Margaret Thatcher.

There are millions who admire her hugely and continue to venerate her. So I don't think Ilhan Omar is alone in her admiration for Margaret Thatcher. But yeah, still, as Kathleen's email illustrates, a polarising figure. That's what we'll settle for. Make sure you join Jenny tomorrow.

She will be talking about women's football and asking why are the world's best female footballers increasingly likely to sign for the top English clubs? That's tomorrow. And later in the week, she'll also be in conversation with Mary McAleese, the former Irish president and feminist icon. Alison Stedman is one of our guests as well on Thursday. And she'll talk to to Emma Howard Boyd and Flo Hedlum.

Emma is the head of the Environment Agency. Flo Hedlum is the gardener, of course. They are both judges in our Woman's Hour, our planet power list for 2020. And they'll be in conversation with Jenny on Thursday. Make sure you're with them. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.