Woman's Hour - The women at the centre of the new drama 'It's a Sin'. Plus a look at the gendered economic impact of covid.

Episode Date: February 9, 2021

'It’s a Sin', the new drama on Channel 4 by Russel T Davies tells the story of a group of young gay men living in London during the Aids crisis of the 1980s and 90s. At the centre of their lives is their friend Jill Baxter, who offers unconditional love and support. We meet the woman who inspired the character, Davies' long-time friend Jill Nalder, the actor who plays her on screen Lydia West and Lisa Power an LGBT rights campaigner and co-founder of Stonewall.A new report from the Women and Equalities Committee looks at the gendered economic impact of Covid 19 - we're joined by its Chair Caroline Noakes MP. Plus Pauline Bridge, who at 82 has been called Britain’s oldest paper "girl". And we hear from Kirsty Mead a Topshop worker, and a lifestyle fashion blogger whose video on TikTok of her packing up one of the shops in Leeds that's never going to open again, has gone viral.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Getting up at 5am for a newspaper round is bad enough, especially in this weather. But arguably, it's all the more impressive if you're 82. Pauline Bridge has been described as potentially Britain's oldest paper girl or paper woman, if you prefer, if she prefers. I can ask her shortly. She's joining us. She does it on her bike. She took it over from one of her grandchildren. And at 82, she says she is not going to stop delivering her local paper. Do you have an unusual job or do an unexpected activity that perhaps raises some eyebrows?

Tell us what it is. Tell us why you do it. Tell us sort of how you got into it and what it gives to you, what it gives to your life. We'll hear from Pauline shortly, but we'd like to hear your tales too, to perhaps make us think a bit differently about the world this morning and share some of your stories. 84844, that's the number you need to text. Women's Hour text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or social media, at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through our website. Looking forward to hearing those. Also today, the she session.

You may have heard that phrase. We've discussed it here on Women's Hour, but it's become a more common term because the way that this recession is panning out because of the pandemic, the way that this is is panning out because of the pandemic, the way that this is hitting women the world over disproportionately is something that is rising up the agenda. And now the government here, the UK government is being asked by MPs from all parties to commit to gender

impact assessments around each of its policies, whether that's reacting to the pandemic or just policies moving forward that come after these lockdowns that we have faced together. So we'll be hearing from the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee on the programme later today. But first, I don't know about you, but it is one of the things getting me through of a Friday evening during lockdown. And I'm talking about the TV programme It's a Sin. It's a powerful new drama on Channel 4 by Russell T Davies. It tells the story of a group of young gay men living in London during the AIDS crisis of the 80s and 90s. And it's another major lockdown hit, becoming Channel 4's most binge-watched new show, netting over 6.3

million streams since its launch. And at the centre of these male friends' lives is a woman, Jill Baxter, who offers unconditional love and support during an incredibly difficult time, a different era and a different pandemic. I'm joined by the woman herself, the actress Lydia West. I'm also joined by the real Jill, Jill Nadler, Russell T Davies' long-time friend who inspired that character. And Lisa Power, an LGBT rights campaigner, co-founder of Stonewall. And during the crisis, the AIDS crisis, one of the earliest volunteers with the LGBT helpline switchboard. But before we speak to our guests, the double Jill, as it were, and Lisa there, let's hear a clip of Jill in action in It's a Sin. In this clip, Jill is concerned for her friends and asks Richie, played by Olly Alexander, whether he should consider changing his attitude to sex. Don't you ever think you should... What? Stop. For a bit. Stop what? Sex.

Why did you say that? I don't know. No? Why did you say it? Oh my God, they got you. The thought police. You are infected. No, I'm just saying.

Jill, don't listen to that shit. Do you know, I listen to whatever I want. Because the problem with you is you're too clever. It has been said. No, I mean it. You're too clever by half. Like, in your mind, you can think your way out of anything. But think about this head boy.

If there was an illness and, say, you had it and you slept with him and then you slept with him and then you slept with 500 people, like, all of you do it every weekend, then tell me, Richie, if you're so clever, what's going to stop it spreading? What's going to save you? Your A-levels? A tense moment.

Also a swear word in there for which I didn't warn you. Apologies for that. Let's now talk to, first of all, the woman playing Jill, Lydia West. Good morning. Hello, morning. It's always an interesting thing to hear yourself back there, but it's an important... I can see you sort of cringing here on my Zoom screen.

But it's an important point you're trying to land early on, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I think Jill, as we know, Jill is the first to kind of... the first person in that house to deal with someone close dealing with the illness. So she knows so much more than the boys at this point and she just every part of her just wants to tell them that just to get smart because they're they're just playing about and they don't have a clue of the what's going on but she knows but

she can't so she has this deep secret that she's keeping um and yeah it just it happens isn't it when you want to kind of say something but you, you can't say exactly what you want to say, so you kind of just go about it, go around it, and that's what she's doing in that scene. So, yeah, it was fun to play. And, yeah, so it's a really important point, I feel like, in that episode. We'll keep going with the point in just a moment. Can I, first of all, say la to you?

Can I say that? You absolutely can. I'm sorry, that's awful when people do in-jokes if you haven't seen the series. What is la? So la is the kind of the way the friends, it's a private joke between the friends and it's how they greet each other.

And yeah, I think it's, we all have with our really close friends, these like private jokes and to have that on screen and actually getting the laugh right was so difficult and I remember like we had a rehearsal and we were all just like and Russell was like no it's not right and we were like he was like no no no so we it was it took a long time to perfect because I think they Russell and Jill correct me if I'm wrong had this between their friendship group so um so yeah he wanted to incorporate that. And it just shows kind of just their intimacy and how close they are

and how much they love each other. I'm so happy that you've taken us through the kind of octaves of La there. Because we got a tweet for you today just coming before we came on air. Such a wonderfully moving and poignant programme. Hashtag it's a sin. And let's be honest, we all needed Jill in our lives lives and we could all be doing to be being a bit more jill and the message ends la so let's go to the real jill here good morning jill good morning good morning do you do you want to do a bit of la la see that's so much better than mine you've got

vibrato in there and it's so much better than mine i You've got vibrato in there. And it's so much better than mine. So moving from the la to the situation that we're talking about here, Jill, the character was based on you. You're actually in the programme. I've not got to that episode yet, but you're playing, weirdly, the mum of you, if I can put it like that. Tell us about the beginning of the crisis for you and how you became that person that, as we were just hearing, started to know what was going on. Well, I heard about it while I was in college, in drama school, and I read some articles in the paper, some things about, you know, a mystery illness in America that was causing, you know, gay men to fall seriously ill and die.

And so it was a gradual gaining of knowledge of reading up and finding information. It was very, very difficult to find any information at all in the beginning. And it was very disjointed information because I think really nobody actually did know and then it became um sort of creeping into our community and into our world and you and I just was that person who would try to find out more information all the time because I worried about it and because you were worrying about your friends yes exactly and and also um because you started reading things like a gay plague and, you know, just stigmatising people as well. So it was quite a horrible time, but it took a long time to get proper information. How did you convince your friends, if it did play out like this, friends that perhaps were sceptical, that they needed to be perhaps thinking about this and even changing behaviour?

Oh, I think in reality, you can't tell people what to do. You know, you can try. I mean, in complete reality, it's everybody gradually learned that it was a very serious possibility that people, you know, friends would catch it and people in our community caught it. But actually telling people not to go out and, you know, friends would catch it and people in our community caught it. But actually telling people not to go out and, you know, meet people and have sex and stuff like that. There was no there was no way I could stop people doing anything like that. Let's bring in Lisa Power at this point, someone who will remember this time well, co-founder of Stonewall and one of the earliest volunteers with the LGBT Helpline

Switchboard. Good morning. Good morning. What do you remember about your knowledge at the beginning of this? How did you start to understand it? Well, we started to get calls on Switchboard and we didn't know any more than someone like Jill. So actually, as an organisation, we did the same as Jill. We scrabbled for information. And we were lucky because you have to remember in those days, no internet, no easy modes of transmission of information. We literally had tourists coming back from America, as it's shown in the show, bringing back the latest information from New York and San Francisco. And we were updating our information in logbooks. We had logbooks which are now lodged in the Bishopsgate archives in London.

And literally, we were writing stuff in those logbooks so that each person, as they came in for their new shift, would read the latest in the logbooks and be able to pass it on. And we ended every phone call for years during the 80s with have you heard about aids trying to tell people because until the government campaign effectively we and a london-based gay newspaper called capital gay were the only consistent reliable sources of of that information until the Terence Higgins Trust started up and then the national campaign from the government.

What about this drama, this particular drama doesn't have to represent everybody's experiences, but there are, of course, millions of women with the disease, HIV positive, with AIDS. Interestingly, the Terence Higgins Trust has said that there's been a space of a rise in people, women Googling about this because they don't know how it's affected women. What would you say about what you were hearing from women at the time, Lisa? We were hearing a lot of things. I mean, some of them were quite wild. I remember an elderly lady who phoned who was worried that her cat might get AIDS if it bit a gay man. And I think we were able to dispel that fear. But the trouble

was that there were a lot of euphemisms around. And for example, the government leaflet that went round to everybody said homosexuals. So we got quite a lot of lesbians ringing us up going, does that mean me? But it was clear that from an early stage, although AIDS appeared in gay men and in drug users, it was clear that women were not immune. And the difficulty was that we had a national campaign in the Sunday Times newspaper at the end of the 80s, start of the 90s, saying that AIDS was a gay plot to get money and that heterosexuals wouldn't get it. And absolutely denying there was a link between HIV and AIDS. It's the kind of denialism that we've subsequently seen in Covid. I wanted to get your view on that in just a moment.

Data from the Terence Higgins Trust indicates women made up of 28% of new HIV diagnoses in 2019. And around a third of people living with HIV in the UK are women. Globally, there are more women living with HIV than men, which most people may not know. But talking about what you did know going into this and your level of insight, if I can come back to you, Lydia West, who's playing Jill in It's a Sin, which so much love coming in for the programme, I should say, while we're talking, and for you in particular, because this hashtag, Be More Jill,

goes around, I think, on Friday evenings when people watch the next episode. How do you feel about that? It's very overwhelming. It's amazing, but it's just, I can't believe it. Are you a good person in real life? I like to think so. We all like to think so.

What a question. Are you someone who cooks soup and takes it round? Maybe. Okay, this is not necessarily about your personality. I just thought, I always like to know how close people are to that, to their characters. But let me ask you, when you did go into this and you first read the script, what was your knowledge like of the AIDS crisis? I'm ashamed to say it was so limited and I did not know half of what I learned in the script and from kind of then the research that I did. I didn't know anything about Section 28.

I didn't know all the conspiracies about kind of patient zero and all these rumors that were going on and the misinformation. I just, I learned so much and then it made me dive into it. And I referenced quite back to quite a lot, a website called HIV.gov. And it has a timeline of kind of all, everything that happens and the publications that were coming out and the headlines and I remember being so surprised at a headline from the New York Times in 1984 which said that it's HIV is transmissible via saliva and by a spit and I just remember thinking if if Jill fictional Jill was around during during that time and dealing with

this like and she would have read that it's like that's what you would have believed and that's what you then would have kind of thought and that's why there's so many moments in the script that and in the story like when I don't want to spoil it but if in episode two when when Jill has an incident with the mug it's like that's what she could have been thinking of and that's what she could have seen and that was all she had access to so it just blew my mind that I was was not I didn't do the work but before to know about this stuff and it wasn't brought ever brought to my attention so that's what I kind of hoped from while creating the show and then afterwards that generations younger than me would gain from that because I don't think it's discussed

enough in our history lessons and it's just brought to our attention enough. Yeah, I can totally relate. I mean, I know you're 27, just to put this in context. I'm 36, you know, a decade between us. And I also didn't feel I knew enough about this. And I also felt completely ignorant, despite having to try. I've tried over the years to learn a about this. And I also felt completely ignorant, despite having to try, I've tried over the years to learn a bit more. And perhaps that's also why it's resonating so much, despite it just being an extremely well-written drama. And you buy into the friendships of the people

that you're watching. To come back to you, Jill Nadler, and it was just raised by Lisa, and I'll bring her back in in a moment. Do you think that this is having an added impact at the moment because we're living through another pandemic, albeit a very different one? Yes, I definitely think that. I definitely think that people have realised the impact of an illness and then they think back or didn't even realise that that was happening to a whole section of

society. So I think people have a more also I think people are very emotional while they're in lockdown you know everyone's everyone is sort of oh I could cry at anything I know I know everyone's feeling that so on top of that it's about a terrible illness and then we're dealing as well with this pandemic so the whole thing is heightened and I think it makes people realise, my goodness, what a terrible time people actually had, you know, especially the men who, you know, died so young. Rhiannon says, I'm loving this on Women's Hour today. I haven't finished It's a Sin yet, but that might be how I spend the rest of the day. La. I'm trying. I'm trying. But people are texting in the word la and I've got to deal with that. Mike on email says, so wonderful to hear about the real

Jill. All gay men needed and still need a Jill. And that's from Mike, who says he's gay and 60 years of age. Listening this morning. Good morning to you, Mike. Good morning, Rhiannon. To come back to you, Lisa, you mentioned COVID and what Jill was just mentioning there. And then Lydia, who talked about a mug, what she was referring to in that episode without ruining anything was the need to vigorously clean anything that had been in contact with somebody who they thought may have been infected how has this pandemic made you feel with reference to what you lived through in the 80s and 90s with AIDS? I think the the Covid pandemic has really made a lot of people remember stuff I mean there are it's not directly analogous because it is much more easily transmissible. It's as easily transmissible as we feared in the early days that HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, might be.

But there's no doubt, certainly for many of my friends who were infected by HIV, you know, their attitude has been, well, I didn't let that pandemic take me out. I fought that one. And now they're in the risk group. They're in the highest risk group for the current pandemic. But they've dealt with it before. And I think it leads all of us who went through that to think about things like risk reduction and actually doing what we can and, you know, looking through the rules in those ways, we're much more liable to actually listen to what's going on and much less liable to listen to the chatter of people making up mad theories about it. Lisa Power, thank you very much for talking to us. I didn't get you to say La. I'm sorry. Do you want to join in?

I'm not going to say it. I'm going to wear it on a T-shirt. Oh, OK. The mayor of Lambeth, Philip Normal, has made a T-shirt with La on it. And he's raised over £100,000 for the Terence Higgins Trust so far with it. So that's what I'm going to be doing with my laugh. There we go. We all need the T-shirt. I think I'd be more comfortable with it

because I don't have a very good singing voice and that's been exposed brilliantly this morning. Lisa Power, thank you to you. Lydia West, we'll all be more Jill when it comes around this week. Obviously, most people have binge watched it, I'm sure. I'm just savouring it episode by episode. Thank you so much for talking to us.

Thank you so much. Lovely to have you on. And the real Jill, Jill Nadler, thank you to you as well. Thank you very much. All the best. Jill there. Be more Jill. This is many messages coming on around this. I really love this discussion. Such a brilliant programme. It's helping frame a national discussion. That's from Dr Thomas Dale-McClain, who's listening on Twitter. Keep your messages coming in in response. But we also asked you about unusual jobs or activities that you do that perhaps raise some eyebrows, because getting up at 5am for a newspaper round is tough, especially in this weather.

But arguably, it's all the more tough and impressive if you're 82. Pauline Bridge has been described as potentially Britain's oldest paper girl or paper woman. She may prefer that, I'll ask her. It's something she started a decade ago when she took over the round from her grandchildren, as you do. And over the years, she's made more than 50,000 deliveries and cycled at least 5,000 miles. She joins me now from Southampton. Good morning, Pauline. Good morning.

Thank you for joining us. Do you prefer paper woman or paper girl? I don't mind. Fair enough. I get called all names, Pauline. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Do you prefer paper woman or paper girl? I don't mind. Fair enough. I get called all names, I think. What, while you're on your round? No. OK, just to check.

The people I deliver to are very appreciative. Why do you want to do this? Because it keeps me fit, and I love getting up early and going out. I mean, but that's seriously early. I love it. It's a lovely time of day. You took over the round from one of your grandchildren, is that right? Yes. Well, when they grew up and started senior school and college,

they had a lot of after-school activities they used to do. So to save them having to go out when they came home later, I started doing it. And when I started it, I really enjoyed it. So I carried on. And have you made some friends on the round? Yes, I know quite a few of them. They're always very pleased to see me. And were you a big cyclist?

Were you a keen cyclist before doing this? Yes, I was. I've always ridden a bike. I'm very impressed just generally. nothing to do with your age, because I just got one recently and I'm not very good on it yet, so I'll aim to get better. I'm quite nervous on the roads. But your bike, is 40 years old, your bike? Yes, it was my daughter's actually.

We gave it to her when she was 11, but now I'm really happy with it. And if I get any punches or anything i just have to take it over the road to my son-in-law brian and he repairs it straight away he's very good with bikes oh good old brian um so how long are you planning on doing this i'd i'd like to go on till i'm 90 that's the target so eight more years or so yes but my father always used to say when you get old you either wear out or rust out and I want to wear out very wise words I suppose we're talking at a time aren't we when a lot of people especially older people perhaps do feel isolated even more so than in normal times and And how are you finding lockdown?

Well, it's not too bad for me because my daughter and six of my grandchildren, I've got eight grandchildren, but six of them live over the road, so they're always popping over to make sure I'm all right. Oh, that's good. Winding me up a bit. That's all part of it. And I suppose with your paper round as well,

that keeps you going. Yes, definitely. That's what part of it. And I suppose with your paper round as well, that keeps you going. Yes, definitely. That's what I'm saying. It gives you a purpose to get up and go out. What would I do otherwise? You get up and just sit about all day, don't you? Yes, and that's a reality for so many of us at the moment. Is there anything you want to say to people who are listening

who are perhaps in their 80s, in their 90s, who are feeling you know a bit purposeless at the moment i'm not saying that's how all of them feel no but i think it's nice if they can get a purpose in life that will make them even go and well it's a job to say meet up with friends now but once we get back to normal it's nice to just have someone to go and see isn't it yes um i wish i say you're delivering your local paper aren't you yes and are you you aware of how many houses you go to is it the same each time yes occasionally they're either on holiday or you get new ones come and some give up so and how many do you do? I do about 32.

32. And all weathers? I mean, I don't know if there's snow where you are. Yes, we had some this morning. My daughter, she came and she said, no, I'm taking you in the car. I'm not going to risk you falling over. But it wasn't too bad down here.

I kept saying to her, it wasn't slippery. But my son, daughter and son-in-law give me a lot of support and my grandchildren do. Oh, well, that's lovely to hear. I think she was probably wise to be at least concerned, but it sounded like you wanted to get out on your bike. I did. I said to her, I've walked across the road and there's nothing.

It's not slippery. There was a little, but it hadn't frozen or anything. It was just soft. Long may you continue. I'm sure the 32 homes who received the paper from you are all so grateful when they see you. Oh, they are. They said especially while this pandemic's

been on, we can't believe you've been still carrying on. It's lovely to hear and it's a great story to inspire us all of all ages. Pauline Bridge, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. A message here from Suzanne who says Hello, my mum Liz, aged 82 is the guerrilla gardener at a hospital

and her local doctor's surgery for the last four years. Day or night, rain or sun, she secretly does this watering them as well. She hasn't done it recently due to Covid but soon she'll be out planting away. And Chrissy says, I'm 60 this year. I've been sweeping the streets, keeping the crossings

and the bus stops sparkling, cleaning all signs, litter picking every week since March 2020. Because of COVID, I've had more time and the streets are quieter to carry out this community work and I love doing it. Last year, I was given an award by my local council. Well done, Chrissy. Just hope to inspire others to keep their streets clean.

I'm shopping for my elderly neighbour this morning. Chrissie, thank you for that. I have to say, I also invested in a litter claw, a new one at the beginning of lockdown. So I feel you on that and actually find it incredibly therapeutic, although quite infuriating, going out onto the nearby streets. It's amazing what you pick up. Just to tell you, coming up on Radio 4

today on Call You and Yours with Winifred Robinson, what is it like for the children you know being taught at home? You can get in touch with the programme. Don't forget to include your phone number so they can contact you. The email is youandyoursandspelt at bbc.co.uk at lines open for the phone line that is 03700 100 444 at 11am just after we get off air. So that's coming up for you to get involved in. Now, unlike any other modern recession, the downturn triggered by the COVID-19 pandemic has created larger employment losses for women than men, leading to what some have started calling a she-session. Thank you. overlook women, that investment plans for the future are skewed towards male-dominated sectors, and that full equality impact assessments are needed to redress the situation. The Conservative MP who chairs the committee, Caroline Noakes, joins us now. Good morning.

Morning. This will make uncomfortable reading for the government, for your party, about how they're doing. Have you had a response yet? I think the government put out a very bland quote last night saying that they looked at all policies in the round, which in effect is exactly the same as the minister said to us when she came before the committee. And we're saying, well, looking at things in the round is important.

Which minister? That was Kemi Badenoch. The Equalities Minister, yes. The Equalities Minister. But we also want them to look at the specifics of how are women being impacted? How are disabled people? How are people from BAME communities? It's crucially important to understand that when you drill down into these policies, they are not impacting people equally. And what do you mean by that? When you've drilled down,

what are you actually seeing? Well, of course, we will all acknowledge that universal credit has given a £20 uplift to everyone. But we also know that women have been less likely to be eligible for statutory sick pay because they're on short-term contracts, they're on fewer hours. We've seen pregnant women incorrectly put on statutory sick pay instead of furlough. We've seen women, yes, stats have come out, more women have been furlough. We've seen women, yes, the stats have come out, more women have been furloughed. But of course, that's because they're in sectors like hospitality, like retail, hair and beauty, where there are a disproportionate number of women employed. And those are the sectors that have locked down first and are likely to come out of lockdown last. What would you say to anybody listening to this who hasn't

yet read your report or looked into this in the detail that you have, which would say COVID or rather the conditions of lockdown has shone a light on society as it is rather than the government have designed policies that have ended up being sexist or against women, if you see what I mean? Well, I don't think the government has deliberately designed policies to be sexist. I think what's happened is that they haven't looked adequately at the impact of those same

policies. So we know that men are more likely to suffer greater physical effects from COVID, but we also know that women are carrying the greatest share of caring responsibilities. So we're saying in this report, look, women are more likely to have lost their jobs. So let's have some policies that make sure that you set aside retraining opportunities for women going forward. That the conditionality in UC where they're obliged to look for work for a certain number of hours per week reflects the fact that children won't be in school because of homeschooling. So they won't be able to commit that same level of time. And I think it's just about understanding the nuances and being prepared to reflect on them going forward.

You know, in terms of women, when you talked about women who are more likely to have lost their job or gone on furlough, we are seeing and we're actually going to talk to somebody who works at Topshop or was working at Topshop in just a moment. But women's jobs going in those sorts of roles at Topshop and then're actually going to talk to somebody who works at Topshop or was working at Topshop in just a moment, but women's jobs going in those sorts of roles at Topshop, and then those jobs going to men because they're being replaced in distribution and delivery jobs, because those outlets are going online. How can the government intervene in that sort of situation? Oh, I think it's crucially important that when we're looking at things like retraining opportunities, when we're looking at work coaches in job centres, they have to make sure that they're ready for an influx of a greater number of female job seekers. We have to look at things like kickstart and

apprenticeships and recognise that if we're going to have those sort of schemes in green tech and in construction, well, actually, did we not ought to be trying to direct women into different roles? We can't have a situation where work coaches are looking at stereotypical female-friendly industries. There's going to be a real requirement for the DWP to think outside the box. But it's all very well you saying this, and yes, you're a Conservative MP, but you're the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee. But when you started talking right at the beginning of our conversation, you said, oh, we've got a very bland statement from the government. I've got a statement I can also read and I will do so in just a moment. Your description of it is how you see it. That would not hint that the government are listening.

Well, I think that's one of the big problems. I'm not convinced they are listening. I've been pointing out since the start of the pandemic how few women are sat around the cabinet table, how their voices are not being played into debates and decisions that the government is making. We had an all-male quad when the prime minister was very sadly in hospital. I think it's absolutely crucial that the government wakes up to the fact that they need to take equalities far more seriously than they have to date. But more women around the table doesn't necessarily mean equality is on the agenda. You could be a woman that doesn't care about equality. Well, I think there are some serious challenges around the calibre of women that you invite into your cabinet

and you make sure that their voices are heard. Are you angling to get back in there? You used to be an immigration minister. I think I'm very conscious that I'm not going back in. But I'm loving the job that I'm doing. Why is that? You sound like you've got the agenda that women perhaps would be all ears to.

Well, I'm very passionate about the equalities agenda, but I would love to see someone like Penny Morden come back as a Secretary of State for Women and Equalities. When she was the Minister for it, she had real passion and drive. And I think it's important that voices like that are backing government at the highest level. So to go back to the point, seriously, away from jostling for jobs, which I wasn't saying you were, but I always have to ask

who wants to do what and it's politics. So let's remember that. Why do you not think your party, the party of government, the Conservative Party, been in power now a decade, are not listening to these very well evidenced claims about women? So I think it's still a very blokey mentality at the very top. I don't think that we're done many favours by the predominance of single sex education around the cabinet table. And I think it's really important that there is much more recognition. We need more women in parliament across every party. We need more women in government and we need to be prepared to listen to their opinions and act upon them. So it's blokey and it's not listening, this government.

I mean, is that your description? I think that's what the evidence has shown us. And you will know that I've challenged the prime minister numerous times in the liaison committee about does he have enough women in his government? And then we had a video from him back in november committing to a 50 50 parliament yet at the first opportunity he had to put more women into parliament via the house of lords he didn't why not that is a question that the prime minister would have to answer i can't well perhaps you when you next see him you can say come on woman's hour and we'll ask him and you know if see him first, do ask him and tell us what he says.

But it's not a joking matter what you're what you're alleging here. It's a very serious issue. One, the government, they're not here to respond, would strongly refute any idea of. But why do you suspect it? Could I say it like that? Well, I would describe it and indeed have done as institutional thoughtlessness is that they're just not stopping to think either of the impact of their policies of the fact that there are very few female voices around the cabinet table that they're not prepared to put women on broadcast media we saw pretty precise that came out pretty patel uh and there you have the issue is that

pretty has done the daily press conference but if you look at the sunday morning broadcast there are very very few female ministers ever allowed onto that so your hope is that they will listen to this uh there is this request for gender impact assessments if you were a betting woman conservative mp caroline, will your party do it? I like to think that they will. I think that we will have a reshuffle coming. And I like to think that they will appoint ministers with a real passion for equalities, not just for women, but for disabled people, for BAME people, for LGBTQ people. But that's a reshuffle hope. Will they commit to gender impact assessments? If you had to lay a bet at Ladbrokes or anywhere else later today, what would you do?

I think there are some individual ministers with real commitment to their equality duty. Unfortunately, I don't see it across the board. So that sounds like you would be betting against it. Disappointingly, I think, yeah, that would be where I would put my money. Caroline Oates, we'll talk again. Thank you very much for your time. A government spokesperson said, throughout the pandemic, this government has done whatever it takes to protect lives and livelihoods and will continue to do so.

We're safeguarding people's jobs and incomes with economic schemes worth over 200 billion, including the self-employment income scheme for the 1.7 million self-employed women in the UK. Covid-19 is prompting a culture shift with more people than ever before working flexibly and the government wants to harness that as we recover by doing so. We could see more equal sharing of care work by parents, more flexibility from employers enabling us to unleash the potential of everyone across the country. And I hope he does know it. But as I say,

that is an open invitation to the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, to come on and respond to one of his MPs, the chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, Caroline Notes, they're raising, as she puts it, some very serious concerns about what she describes as the blokey cabinet. He would counter that, I'm sure, but we'd love to hear it from him direct. So there you go. That's the request formally made on behalf of all of you here on Woman's Hour. Now, we were just talking about Topshop. We were talking about female jobs or jobs that have skewed more towards women. Let's talk now to Kirsty Mead, a Topshop worker, a lifestyle fashion blogger. She's posted a video on TikTok that's gone viral of her packing up one of the shops in Leeds that isn't going to reopen.

Online fashion giant ASOS has bought out Topshop and Topman following its purchase of Debenhams. But all Topshop stores would be closed permanently. That's what's understood. She's still closing up today. I can talk to her now. Kirsty, hello. Hi. Thank you for joining us today.

How long have you worked at Topshop? For seven years. I did leave for a year, all in all it's been seven years and this video just describe it to us that people seem to have connected with so it seems to have gone absolutely viral and I don't really know quite how but it's basically just a video of us all packing up the store you know just having a really great time together just making the most of us having packing up the store, you know, just having a really great time together, just making the most of us, having the last few days together. I've done one like every single day since we've been packing up. So it's just like the gradual taking everything out of the store and the store just basically being empty now at this point.

We're just loading up the vans. How do you feel? It's really emotional. I think because we were in lockdown for so long and we've not been in work it just feels it doesn't feel any different but now we've come straight back into work and we're packing it all up it's just very very surreal that actually after lockdown we're not going to have a job to come back to and that there is not going to be any top shop not just the fact that we're not going to have jobs the fact that top shop stores are never going to be open again

your top shop is in leeds yeah correct and you're you're obviously someone who's worked there but you know also a shopper i'm sure and i think what you've just said we'll come back to your employment status if you if you don't mind in just a moment but i'm sure what you've just said will maybe make people stop and think about the shops that will not reopen after this pandemic. It's one thing, isn't it, when a shop shuts down, when they're all open and you can kind of go and do that last purchase in store or see if there's a bargain. But there's something quite eerie about not seeing a shop again. Yeah, I think people don't realise that actually we're not going to be having a closing down sale. Top Shop is going to be no longer when we come out of lockdown.

Actually, you never are going to be able to go into a Top Shop store again. And I think where our store is based as well, just opposite, is Debenhams as well, which obviously will also be gone. So I think the High Street Brigate in Leeds, it's just going to look very sad, really, because it's just going to be a lot of empty units. How old are you? I'm 25.'re 25 there's this whole thing and it might be you know older journalists getting it wrong but it's often written people your age and younger you know it's all about shopping online and I wonder what you make of that because you do sound sad about not just because it's your job but you do sound sad that you won't have the shop to go into yeah like I think like everyone I do

shop online from time to time but for me personally I like to go into the store I like to try things on I like the experience of shopping in stores and I think a lot of people are the same as well I mean I did a fashion design degree at university as well and I think with that I like to feel the products and try it on and see the quality of it as well because I think online a lot of the time something will arrive and actually it's it's not the quality you want and I know I'm probably not the only one that then you just don't end up taking it back you know you start with these things and that's the whole problem with fast fashion and things like that as well like with everything going to online it's just encouraging all of these really fast fashion brands that are a lot less quality.

I think a lot of people will be thinking of those parcels or things they've got by the door that they keep thinking they'll take back to the post office to try and return and never do. What about your stock? Do you know what's happening to that? Because in the video, you're bagging stuff up, you're putting stuff away. So all of the stock at the moment, as far as we know, is going back to all of our DCs, so all of our Topshop Arcadia warehouses. So we actually have a Miss Selfridge insert in our store as well, but it's all just going back to the DCs, to our warehouses, which then I assume will go on to ASOS, and they will put it all online. What are you going to do for work?

Because the thing, I don't know if you were just listening, but we were talking there to an MP about the fact that your job and jobs like yours are now typically not going to be there and are going to men who are going to be working in the distribution centres. That's not to say women can't, but just to talk about trends. What are you going to do next? For me, since the first lockdown I've actually started trying to progress on my social media channels I think that's the

way the world is going at the moment is a lot online and social media so from the first lockdown I started to try and push my social media channels through YouTube Instagram and TikTok so I'm going to try and take that full time as much as I can and hope that it's a big risk, but hope that it will work out by taking everything onto my social media channels. And I think maybe see how that goes. And I might potentially have to get a part time job somewhere so that I've still got the time to concentrate on pushing my social media as well. And what would that part time job look like? To be honest with what's out there at the moment, it'd probably be in a supermarket, I'm pushing my social media as well. And what would that part-time job look like?

To be honest, with what's out there at the moment, it'd probably be in a supermarket, which is not the end of the world, no, but probably in a supermarket or somewhere like that. I think definitely not retail for me anymore, not fashion retail anyway. It's the second time I've been made redundant in 18 months in retail, so I don't think that's for me anymore.

Wow, that's a lot in 18 months. Yeah, so I don't think that's for me anymore. Wow. That's a lot in 18 months. Yeah, I worked at French Connection, so I left Topshop because there was no vacancies for me to come back to this store after I finished university. So I went to French Connection and they closed that store down, so then I came back to Topshop. Well, it's very striking to hear what you have to say there. Kirsty, all the best. Good luck. Thanks very much. Kirsty Mead there. Yvette says, I'm gutted about the end of Topshop then. Well, it's very striking to hear what you have to say there. Kirsty, all the best. Good luck.

Thanks very much. Kirsty Mead there. Yvette says, I'm gutted about the end of Topshop, the last modern clothes shop that feels like or felt like a catwalk inspiration. I love Chelsea Girl. End of a chain of eras. Thanks for that, Yvette. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again

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