Woman's Hour - The Women's Art Collection at 40; school uniforms in porn; the history of widowhood

Episode Date: September 30, 2026

The Prime Minister Andy Burnham has announced an end to the triple lock for the state pension from 2030, and it’s thought that women could be most affected by the proposed changes. Kylie Pentalow is joined by consumer finance expert Sarah Pennells to explain what the news could mean for women’s pensions. The Women’s Art Collection at Murray Edwards College in Cambridge is marking 40 years since its inception in 1986, with a new exhibition inspired by its very first artwork and two new acquisitions. Joining Kylie Pentelow to discuss putting women in the frame are Harriet Loffler, Director of the Women’s Art Collection, the artist Professor Dame Sonia Boyce and the art historian and author of The Story of Art Without Men, Katy Hessel.A group of school children have set up a petition calling on the government to ban the use of school uniforms in porn. They say they want to abolish the sexualisation of children through the inappropriate use of school uniform. Kylie is joined by two of the campaigners Aylin and Mae, both 15. Kylie also hears from Professor Clare McGlynn, Professor of Law at Durham University and author of Exposed: The problem of Extreme Porn.The cultural historian Mineke Schipper was reading proverbs from around the world, when she stumbled upon an idea for a new research project, into what she describes as the last feminist taboo - what happens to women after their husbands die. The research has now become a book called Widows and Mineke joins Kylie to talk about what she's learnt.Have you ever thought about the ways your body has surprised you? Our bodies carry us through every day, and they vary not only between people, but change hugely over the course of our own lives. We’re exploring the question through the experiences of our Woman's Hour listeners. Today we hear from Rebecca, sharing the story of her recovery from breast cancer, and how her body made it through gruelling cancer treatment to find community and joy in the ocean.Presenter: Kylie Pentalow Producer: Olivia Skinner

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It's late 2007, and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who was, would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as Chief of Operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg.

Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Wednesday's program, plenty coming up this morning. Prime Minister Andy Burnham has announced an end to the triple lock for the state pension from 2030. We'll be finding out how this could impact women who rely on that income. Plus, the biggest publicly accessible collection of women's art is based in England, but it's not actually in a gallery. We'll find out more. Also, the historian who says what happens to women after their husbands die

is the last feminist taboo. I'll be speaking to her about her new book, which looks at the mistreatment of widows in history. And this connects with what Dame Margaret Hodge told us earlier this month about her experiences of becoming a widow after the death of her husband in 2009. I object to being called a widow. It took me forever.

I don't think I still call myself a widow because I don't want to be defined by what I've lost. And it was bad enough losing it, you know. And I think that we should stop doing that. to fill in these forms that tell you all this. I would stop doing that entirely. There's an interesting stat. One in four women, over 65, are widows.

We'll all go to probably live for a long life. Why should you define yourself for perhaps 30 years of life as something you've lost? Dame Margaret Hodge there. So how are widows treated and viewed in today's society? We'd like to hear from you on this. If you're a widow, do you refer to yourself in that way? Do people assume things about you after the death of a husband?

Do get in touch and share your story with us. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website too. Or indeed, send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0,300, 100444. I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Plus, we'll be hearing from two 15-year-old girls who want the use of school uniform in porn band. They've started a petition and have written to the Prime Minister. But first today, one of the main announcements at the Labour Party conference taking place at the moment has been about pensions. And it seems women might be the most affected if, the state pension triple lock is changed. They're more likely to rely on the state pension in retirement and more likely to provide unpaid care for relatives. That's according to government figures. Prime Minister Andy Burnham said the savings will be used to help fund a new national care service for England. Well, joining me is Sarah Pennells, who's the consumer finance

specialist at the Pension and Finance Company Royal London. Thank you so much for coming in to Women's Hour this morning, Sarah. So just can you make it very very? clear to us and explain what the triple lock is? The triple lock was introduced in 2011 and was designed to help increase the value of the state pension relative to earnings because it had fallen behind for some years. The way it works is each April the state pension is increased by the greater of 2.5% inflation as measured by the consumer price index or the increase in earnings. And over the last few years, there have been some. some quite generous increases. So when inflation was roaring away, a couple of years ago, it increased by 10.1%, because that was the highest measure. Last year, the state pension went up, so from April rather, it went up by 4.8% because earnings were higher than inflation. And next April, the state pension is likely to go up by around 4%. And that again is based on earnings rather than inflation. So having the greater of these three measures, the whole point of

the triple lock was not to make people's spending power if they rely on the pension to be consistent, but to build it up, to ratchet it up year on year so that it actually stood for a greater percentage of average earnings. And that's happened. It's gone from about 16% in 2011 to around 30% now and by the end of the parliament should be around a third of a third of average earnings. Right. So what's the proposed change to that then? The big change is from 2030, if this change goes ahead, the state pension will rise by the greater of 2.5% or inflation as before. But it won't rise by earnings in the same way. Now, there is an earning safety net. So that is not actually being abolished. What it means is if we assume the state pension is worth about a third of

average earnings by the end of this Parliament, then the earning safety net will make sure that that value does not fall relative to earnings. So every year it'll increase by either 2.5% or inflation. But if it starts, you know, falling behind earnings, then there is that safety net to make sure it doesn't change in terms of that percentage. So we won't have the situation we had before the triple lock was introduced, which was the state pension, was losing value relative to average earnings. So let's talk about. then what this might actually mean for women? Well, research has shown, and our research backs this up, that women are more likely than men

to rely on the state pension as their main or only income. Now, that figure is beginning to change. If you look back, sort of historically, women were far more likely than men to rely on the state pension. Our figures show that although it's only a minority of people who are over state pension age, who currently rely on the state pension alone, it's twice as many women as men. So any change to the state pension will, by definition,

have more of an impact of women, particularly women who have already retired. Because as we go through the kind of workforce cohort, more women are working, more women are paying into workplace pensions, and therefore few of them are relying on the state pension. But as things stand, any change to the state pension will have more of an impact on women than it does on men. Right. How do you think this is going to go down with female voters? I think it could be split.

I think some women will feel maybe quite concerned or quite worried or angry about this. But I think others who either act as carers, and you mention them in your introduction, or who have children who are either at university, you know, paying or taking on student loans, paying their student loans, looking for jobs, trying to get on the housing ladder, dealing with rents. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of, you know, women and men, if they have, children, they are seeing the kind of struggles that people in their 20s and 30s and even older are going through. So yes, I think there's a conversation that has started to happen already about the affordability of the triple lock in its current form. Because at what point do we

decide that it's done its job and sort of enough is enough in a way? Because however generous it is, the more generous it is, the more we have to pay. And the great news is we're living longer. The bad news is we have to pay for that. And the money that you and I pay in our taxes and national insurance today, part of that goes towards paying today's state pensioners. We're not building up our fund. So as more people live longer and have, you know, longer in retirement, that puts more of a strain on the younger generation. So I think there could be a split. And there are plans, aren't there to use this money for funding of social care. There might be women out there who will welcome that plan. Well, social care has been, I think it's been something that politicians

of varying hues have wrestled with, but not actually tackled, it seemed to be too politically difficult. So as you say, I think there are some who will definitely welcome the fact that there is a debate and maybe a plan to tackle this. I mean, we don't yet know the detail of how the savings on the state pension, if indeed these changes go ahead, would translate to it. But, I mean, you know, many of us know if we're not already carers ourselves. We know women who are carers and men as well, but more women are carers, and the kind of strain emotional and financial.

Not just on today's finances, because again, our research shows that people who are caring are less likely to have so much savings, maybe more likely to find it hard to make ends meet. But also if they're taking time out of the workforce, it means they're not saving for a pension or less likely to. So it's affecting their longer term financial resilience, not just the money they have today. It was reported a couple of days ago that women are experienced. to start receiving larger state pension payments than men from next year. And that's a reversal, isn't it, of the historic gender gap? Can you explain why?

Yeah, so in the past, women tended to be far less likely than men to retire on a full state pension. When the new state pension was introduced, it's not so new now, it's been around for a decade, but it was introduced for people who reached state pension age after April 5th, 2016. One of the sort of key principles of this pension was that it would be easier for women who didn't have that kind of career path that often men have of starting work at a certain age and working until they retired. And so women were previously losing out when they took time out to care for relatives, to bring up children and so on. Now we did know because there were predictions done at the time that over time this would mean that women would catch up with men. what's interesting is actually that it's happening now. It's I think there's sort of a very small, one percentage difference between the state pension that women are getting compared to men.

And that could, as you say, slightly tip in favour of women. So the new state pension was designed, among other things, to mean that women didn't lose out as they did historically under the old state pension system. We've used the word proposed a number of times. So the Prime Minister says this change will be in 2030. We know that a lot can happen in politics in four years. So how likely do you think this is to actually happen? Well, thankfully, I'm not a politician, so I don't have to really think of it. I mean, I think that some people will be in favour of the fact there is a discussion about the affordability of the state pension and allowing it to increase.

I mean, I think there definitely will be some sort of mixed feelings about it. But there's already been a discussion about what can we afford? in the way of the state pension. And although the discussion about social care hasn't really resulted in anything happening until now, I think that it's probably not the only person, probably not the only party, that will have to have this kind of discussion at some point.

Sarah, thank you very much indeed. That's Sarah panels there. And of course, if you have any thoughts on this story, please do get in touch. 84844 is the number to text or 0300-100-444 is the WhatsApp. So do you get in touch with your thoughts on that. Now, a quiz question for you. Where is the largest publicly accessible collection of

women's art in Europe? Is it London maybe? Paris, Berlin? No. It's actually in Cambridge. The women's art collection is displayed at the Murray Edwards College, a women's college at the University of Cambridge. The collection includes 600 works by more than 300 women artists, including Tracy Eman, Barbara Hepworth, Labina Himmid. It's marking the 40th anniversary this year, with a new exhibition inspired by its very first artwork and two new acquisitions, which also honour its origin story. We're here to tell us more about 40 years of putting women in the frame,

our Harriet Loughler, director of the women's art collection. Alongside her in the Woman's Hour studio is the artist Professor Dame Sonia Boyce and the art historian and author of The Story of Art Without Men, Katie Heselt, all of you. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Harriet, I want to start with you. Can you tell us a bit about the collection? I came to see it yesterday, in fact. And it's not your usual art exhibition.

Tell us how it's displayed. Exactly. I mean, it's an unexpected collection in many ways. And as you say, it's Europe's largest publicly accessible collection of art by women and it's very kind of intrinsic to the life of Murray Edwards College, which was formerly known as Newhall, which, as you say, was one of two colleges for women at the University of Cambridge. And what's sort of so remarkable about it is that to explore the collection is to explore this extraordinary architecture. So it was designed by Chamberlain, Paolum Bonn, who went on to

build the barbican. But what is, I think, sort of particularly remarkable about it is that it was designed as a kind of built manifesto for women's education. And by that, I mean, there are two sort of architectural touch points, which is the library, which is this sort of temple to learning. And in place of an altar, you have this rising staircase. And in the dome, the sort of dining room, you have this soaring kind of ceiling, which we're very much purposefully encouraged to look up and thereby aim high. And so this sense of being an inspiring environment for the students, for the scholars, for members of the public to come in free of charge is completely. completely part of the sort of colleges' DNA. And I think we curate two exhibitions a year that are very much born out of the collection.

And we sort of very much are governed by the idea of constellations, not stars, this sense of not necessarily want to spotlight kind of a single artist. That actually it's about providing a platform for as many artists as our space will kind of accommodate. You mentioned the dining hall there and it is quite interesting that, you know, women are having their breakfast, their lunch, their dinner around all these wonderful artists. It's very fortunate for the women who study there. The collection dates back to a work created by Mary Kelly in 1986. Then it was in the 90s that the collection expanded.

So whose names are on that wish list of who was wanted in the collection? Well, there was Maggie Hambling, Paula Rago, Sonia Boyce, Gillian Ayers. I mean, it's a list of 46 artists. But as you say, it very much started with Mary Kelly being in residence at Newhall, as the college was known then, and making a really extraordinary body of work called Ecstas, which is the starting point of our current exhibition, what remains that really connects her work to contemporary practitioners, to really engage with these ideas of what does remain, this idea of history, what gets carried forward. And of course, that's sort of so important to the college, this sense of this 40th anniversary that we've been working in this. this way for so long, it's about really trying to convey that. And Mary Kelly is obviously one of the most significant artists working. She was born in 1941 and has been kind of foundational to kind of feminist work, minimalist work. And so it's kind of a wonderful moment to really engage her

and to talk to her about what that was like. And she speaks so powerfully about engaging with the female fellows at that time and making this work that's about women's experience. But crucially, that work ecstas, like there isn't a single woman depicted. So there is no body. It's about a sort of a narrative. It's about clothing. It's about so much more than just a kind of single, objectified kind of body. You mentioned Sonia Boyce, who was on that wish list.

And Sonia is sitting next to you right now. So you were an emerging artist, Sonia, when the collection was being considered. received, you were part of the influential black arts movement in the 1980s. You became the first woman of colour to represent the UK at the Venice Biennale in 2022. Now, you were on that original list, but you didn't get your invitation, did you? Yeah, I didn't know that I'd been invited because I think this was in the 90s. There was a letter that was sent to me, but during that period, I was moving house quite often.

and so I never received the invitation and I have to admit and I feel quite bad about this that I've only recently found out about this women's art collection I didn't know about it and of course once I've realised that there was a collection

and kind of seeing the work going to visit the college it is extraordinary but yeah the first invitation I didn't actually receive and I still don't know where it is I don't know what the address was we have a copy of it in the display case

you're very honest. It's somewhere in the postal system. But it's a great lesson because it sort of says the president at the time, Valerie Powell, is writing and it says, I'm writing to you as a prominent women artist in 92. And, you know, in the archive there are lots of letters from the women artists saying, I don't identify as a prominent woman artist. There's this sense of kind of, yeah, it tells you, speaks volumes about the position of women in 92, but then, of course, at this moment of reflection now.

So, Sonia, how does it feel now to be part of this collection? Oh, it's lovely to be. part of this collection. I think it's really extraordinary. I mean, just to go into that space where there are so many works on display and to know that my work sit amongst some of the greats is

quite an honour. Yeah, it's also just it's a lovely place to go and study. You know, we came and visited earlier this year and I just kind of thought, oh, I could do this, I could live here.

I could be in this. Because there's a there's a kind of belief, basically, in the potential of learning there that I just thought was really wonderful. So yeah, it's really exciting. And I'm, you know, quite happy to be identified as a woman artist that's in that collection. I think that that's really very key for me. Katie, as a art historian, you've written books, as we said, on re-centering women artists in the last 500 years of art. You are also a visiting fellow at the college, so you're very familiar with. the collection. What do you make of it?

I think it's extraordinary. I mean, you know, when you think about the statistics of certain museums in the UK, even now today, you know, sometimes actually these places are necessary because what they do is they highlight the absence of women in certain collections. So, for example, you know, the National Gallery in London, a wonderful place, but just 1% of its collection is dedicated to women artists. The Royal Academy, again, fantastic. It has only had two major exhibitions by women artists in its main galleries,

even though it's been open since 1768. So actually, sometimes we have to spotlight the women, not to censor or denounce or remove any other narrative, but just purely sometimes centre the women so people understand what we're missing. But also kind of give them that platform at a time, especially when no one else was giving that platform. I mean, again, you know, only now are museums,

I think really actually changing. That's thanks to people at the top who are very much kind of interested in making sure that different narratives are discussed, And actually what we're witnessing right now and thanks to places like the women's art collection which has been catalyzing and catapulting this change for decades is actually seeing a richer, more expansive and brilliant and inclusive art history

which is only going to make more people more interested and feel like it's for them. Sonia said that she, you know, she liked being included in the collection. And I'm imagining you don't mind the term women artists then. I am a woman artist. And you describe yourself in that way? Yeah, because, you know, from the beginnings of when I was kind of at art school, I really strongly identified with what was the emerging feminist art practice at the time because I thought it was really vital.

I mean, it's not a title that I know that all women artists want to take up and they shouldn't have to as well. But yeah, it's a kind of conundrum really, isn't it? the kind of whether one's seen under that particular umbrella or not. And it doesn't necessarily tell you about the practice of that artist. No. What do you think about that term, Katie? Well, I think it's really interesting. My head is going to the abstract expressionists and, you know, formidable artists like Lee Krasner and Helen Frankenthaler,

who, you know, said, I don't want to be associated with the term sort of woman artist or Joan Mitchell or something. And that is because they lived in an extremely patriarchal kind of, you know, society where actually to be a woman artist, quote on quote, was a sort of a negative thing. It wasn't a good thing. They wanted to move away from it. But actually, I think the world that we're living in now is to be a woman artist is actually a kind of marker of power. It's a marker of sisterhood.

It's saying, yes, let's think about this absence of women throughout history and actually let's claim our stake our claim and actually assert ourselves as this. And actually, I think the more people we have that, the more sort of positivity were given towards it. And I think that's what it's about, it's about uplifting others. Maybe connected to that, Harriet,

but I want to talk about the fact that artists originally in this collection were invited to donate their work. Do you pay them now? How does it work? So it's a really important question that we refer, you know, we think about a lot with the collection. And of course, we're always asking ourselves the question of what conditions need to exist for women to be able to make work. And I think that is something that we think about a lot across our programme and the work that we do. I think that there is something very important and significant about the donations that took place. I see it as an act of collective generosity. But I think, you know, we still do consider donations.

And when that occurs, for me, it's about a reciprocity. So if an artist or an estate gives a work, it's about this relationship. And how can that also be something, a kind of shared endeavour. So it's never transactional. And then with the acquisition, we fundraise on a case-by-case basis. So for the Sonia Boys, we were very fortunate to receive funding from the Art Fund and the V&A Arts Council purchase grant. So, you know, we have to identify gaps which of which there are many.

And we are very fortunate to be working with Christine Levette and his female artist Museum in Mugin on a new fund at this year's Freeze London, which will be for a women artist for whom it will be the first time their work will enter a UK public collection. So it's sort of regardless of age. It's very much about that kind of critical moment. So, yeah, we're always seeking opportunities to do more in terms of acquiring work and supporting women artists directly.

We're running out of time, but I do want to get your response to that. Both Sonia and Katie, the importance of women being paid for their work. Let's start with Katie. I mean, look, the art market is almost like a microcosm for the way we place value on judges in society. On average, women artists' work goes for temperament. of a male artist. Frieda Kahlo is the highest earning women artist, 52.6 million.

That's just over 10% of of Leonardo Salvador Mundi, which went for 450 million. Similarly with Marlene Dumas, she's the highest earning woman artist who's living, and Jeff Coons is the highest earning male artist. Again, her work just went for 14% of his work and so it is more important than ever. And I think it speaks volumes for actually, again, wider society and for paying women, and we should do

that? What do you think so? I mean, similarly, you know, the question about the pay gap. And, you know, one thinks about how that conversation has been taken up in recent years, but in more structural ways in the field of employment. But within the arts, it's a very, it's a very, almost nebulous discussion in terms of how do you place value? what does that value look like in monetary terms? And in terms of thinking about the women's art collection, we did have this conversation about the fact that I couldn't afford to donate the work because I have ongoing costs as an artist. And I do think that the economics of it still require much more consideration

than it warrants a lot of discussion now, I think. Just briefly, Harriet, people can come to see it, as you said. It is an exhibition that is open at any time, or even though it's not the typical art gallery, people can just pop in and see it. Absolutely. So we're open to the public every day between 10 and 6, and visitors are very much encouraged to pick up a self-guided tour from the Porter's Lodge if you want to do the analogue

or go digital with the Bloomberg Connect app and just explore this amazing building. And this extraordinary collection, the gardens are divine and yeah, I can promise you an incredible day out. It's a lovely space and it was very nice to be there as all the new students were arriving, looking slightly lost, excited and forlorn about their experience. So thank you, all of you, for coming in today to my guests, Harriet Lofler, Dame, Sonia Boyce and to Katie Hassel.

And as we were saying, the Women's Art Collection at Murray Edwards College. Cambridge is open daily all year round in the exhibition, what remains runs there until February. Now I've been asking for your comments on the term widow. Later in the program we'll be hearing from a historian who's written a book on the history and the culture of widows. Lots of you have already been getting in touch. I want to read this one from Julia who says,

just to say my husband died a long time ago. Being a widow has never been an issue for me as I don't think of myself as a widow. To me, it's a quaint, old-fashioned word and I've never used it about myself. I just tell people I live alone with my cat. Julia, thank you for getting in touch with us. And don't forget you can get in touch by messaging 84844 or WhatsApp is 0-7100-400-44.

I look forward to reading more of your messages out. A bit later in the process. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth and not enough time. Odu helps bring it all together. It's an all-in-one business management platform, fully in-one business management platform, fully integrated from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, so your team can spend less time chasing information and focus on growth.

Whether you're in retail, manufacturing or service, O-Doo gives you one place to manage your business. Visit Odo.com to book a demo. It's O'D-O.com. It's late 2007, and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as chief of operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich.

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, have you ever thought about the ways your body has surprised you? Our bodies carry us through every day. And they vary not only between people, but change hugely over the course. of our own lives. We're exploring the question through the experiences of our own Women's Hour listeners. Today, we'll hear from Rebecca, sharing the story of her recovery from breast cancer and how her body made it through gralling cancer treatment to find community

and joy in the ocean. My body surprised me when I went through treatment for breast cancer. It came out of the blue. I was diagnosed at the end of 2022 and began to be. treatment in early 23. I was told by the oncologist that as it was triple negative breast cancer, they were going to hit it really hard. And frankly, I had no idea what hit it really hard meant until treatment started. And it was five months, five and a half months of chemotherapy that I had. And the reason that they were going in hard was because triple negative breast cancer is it's not very common and it is one of the most aggressive forms of cancer. Breastor cancer. So I knew that I was going to lose my hair. I didn't expect it to happen quite so quickly.

And I was having to take so many drugs alongside the chemo just so that my body could hold it. So steroids and antisickness tablets and all sorts of things. And it was, it took me to my edge, frankly. It really did because obviously they're monitoring how far they can go, how far they can push you with a chemo because they need to get rid of the tumour, basically. So there's this dance, I think, you play between the fragility and then the resilience. And I came through it. There were days that I wasn't sure I could, I had the strength to take it anymore. But our bodies are incredible. And, you know, after my treatment finished, I mean, I'd ended up having to have a blood transfusion and then I was in hospital for a couple of days because I had the most catastrophic

panic attack, which I think was my body telling me to just slow down and rest and be with it and accept, you know, this radical acceptance, if you like, of what I was going through. I then had surgery and then more chemotherapy and then finally a had radiotherapy. So that was almost a year of treatment. And slowly your body's sort of comes back to you and your hair grows back and it's I think for me there was the relief of that I'd got through that actually they had seen that there was no evidence of disease so I made it but it felt like at what cost if you like because it took it took a long time because physically your body is recovering but then emotionally you've almost been holding it

together so the whole time you've been going through treatment and then emotionally you can well i certainly did i collapsed and i've heard so many people that happens for and one of the things that i did after treatment was um a group of us fundraising for maggies the phenomenal cancer charity there's one locally to where i live and i live right by the sea so for every day in may we got in the water with our bright orange t-shirts, which is Maggie's colour, and going in whatever the weather, and knowing that it was going to be a challenge, you know, I'm 63. And there are days that I still think, well, like,

why can't I do that? And it's like, no, you're not 35 anymore. And you've been through all of this cancer treatment. It's extraordinary for me how powerful it makes me feel, knowing what my body has been through and now what else I can do. But it's doing it, I think, in community as well that the women made it.

We had a WhatsApp group so we would connect. Okay, I'm going high tides at 3 o'clock, I'll be down there or whatever. And those relationships were so powerful because there was one particular, a couple of women, but one particular woman who was really struggling to go in one day because it was windy and it was raining and it was cold and it was miserable, frankly.

And she was, oh, I don't know, I really should go in, but blah, blah, blah. And I was telling her the reason why I was doing it was because I had used Maggie's as a, for support when I was going through my treatment. And she said, oh, I had no idea. She said, right, that's it. You've inspired me. Nothing now will get in the way because I'm going to be doing. it for women like you. And maybe it's because of everything I've been through with the treatment.

It's like life's too short to just talk about, I don't know, fluffy subjects all the time, you know, but to actually go deep with somebody I think is really important. And we found that we could stay in the water longer because we were having these amazing conversations. And I know that we can call on each other and that feels incredible. I think cancer hit me, absolutely walloped me. And I now feel, gosh, dare I say this, I feel stronger now. I'm going to get emotional. I feel stronger now than before because I feel I have a purpose.

And I feel that supporting women and helping them see just what there is left to live in life. That was Rebecca there. And following her recovery, she went on to found a not-for-profit for women navigating life after cancer. A moving story to hear as part of our series exploring the question when my body surprised me. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed, you can find links to advice and support on the BBC action line. Now, a group of school children have set up a petition calling on the government to ban the use of school uniform in porn. They want to abolish the sexualisation of children through the inappropriate use of school uniform. Two of the campaigners are 15-year-olds, Aileen and May, who are at a school in Oxfordshire. When I spoke to Aileen and May early this morning, I asked them why the issue of school uniform being used in porn mattered to them. Here's May.

Well, personally, it's always been a part of my life since I was around 12. I was watching a TV show with my mum and to turn on the main guy. the woman dressed up as a Catholic sexy schoolgirl. And I thought to myself, I'm going to have to go out tomorrow in a school uniform similar to that and think, this is what attracts people, this is what makes people sexy. But I'm a child. I shouldn't have to feel like that. I think I was actually the opposite.

I remember hearing about this campaign. And the first thought I had was, why is this a thing? as a child, I feel like we shouldn't have to worry about something that is meant to simulate us, being used to sexualize minors. I think it's sick. I remember so vividly coming home and talking to my parents and they were shocked. They were stunned by the fact that we need to have this campaign. And I think that's why if we can publicize it and make it known this is an issue, then people like me will realize that we need to take action. And we're talking about the issue of school uniform being used in porn.

What do you mean by porn? Well, any media like films, videos, books, photographs, etc. Which is used for sexual purposes. Yeah. And how has this all made you feel about wearing your school uniform? I think it makes me feel repulsed. A uniform that is meant to make us feel united. It's meant to show.

a community and I think it's just been tainted by the sexualization that this media pushes and forces onto us. I think that it makes something that's meant to feel safe, feel so, so unwelcoming and I just think it's sickening. That's why we want to make this change and that's why if we can get as many people to sign the petition, I think we can get closer to making a safer environment. Yeah, I mean I don't even wear my school uniform out. side of school. It's the short period of when I walk to school and when I walk home and then it's off. It's immediately off because this just amplifies all my feelings about it that I've had previously.

I think the connotations surrounding that of a school uniform, it's totally changed. I think we've normalized it so much. It's ingrained within our society. The uniform is inherently sexual and it's not. It's inherently what children wear. Have you been able to make any adaptations to your uniforms? I'm thinking that maybe are you allowed to wear trousers instead of skirts, for example? Yeah, we are allowed to wear trousers and one of our members of the club has stopped wearing skirts altogether because like she feels uncomfortable in it now. And she loved wearing skirts. I think that's what makes it so vile hearing about it. Like to protect ourselves, we have to change ourselves when, if anything, we should stop the people who are

sexualising us to begin with. We shouldn't be the ones who have to change. So as well as starting your petition, you've also written to the Prime Minister Andy Burnham. So what do you want to see happen? Well, the minimum thing that we want is to stop the normalisation, because when you stop the normalisation, you stop the sexualisation. But our biggest hopes and dream is to obviously get it banned from all pornographic media. And even further than that is to get it changed the advertisement of the costume. Because we know we can't take the costume away because that would infringe on some rights. But we just need to change the advertising from sexy schoolgirls to just uniform.

We're aware that this ban isn't going to immediately make the world a safer place. But I think it's a start. I've heard some people argue that it's wishful thinking, but we have done research and we've looked into the logistics. We've had contact with the Ministry of Justice who have kind of helped us learn about how the law system works. We've also had contact with the campaign group Cease. Thank you so much to everybody who's helped us along the way.

I think it's helped us become more aware of what is and what isn't possible. Also, yesterday, our MP, Calla Miller, also helped us learn about what it is and how we would actually put this into place. So I think it's important that we make this effort because in the end, all of these small changes will lead to a bigger outcome where slowly we can make it so the children feel safer within our world. You've met so many people throughout this campaign, haven't you? You've been to Parliament as well to talk about it at an event where you met MP Kirsty Blackman. I was interested here that you didn't wear your school uniform to that event. What made you make that choice?

Well, with the rise of AI, especially, we thought if we went to go to Parliament in our school uniform and someone caught up on that and looked at us in our uniform in a picture, they could use AI to change it and make it sexual, which would defeat the whole purpose of this whole campaign. And that's what people would focus on instead of the thing that we're actually trying to do, which is get this band. I remember discussing it within our meeting. I think it was just so shocking to see that everybody kind of unanimously agreed that we felt unsafe wearing our uniform to this event. And I just think that shows so much and shows why this is important.

You're both hugely eloquent women, young women. You've been discussing this at your little feminist book club in school, I understand. May, can you explain what goes on there? Well, I actually think I'm not the best to talk to because Aylans actually been here longer than I have. I'm just, I first came here like a year ago. As a newbie experience, we don't actually read books. We just talk about issues because we actually don't have enough money for books for like 20 people, I'm going to be honest. Yeah, as someone who's been there slightly longer than May has, I'm truly thankful to the Little Feminist Book Club.

It's always been a safe environment, a safe community where we can share our opinions and we can make a stand. We look over poems. We look over feminist media. Actually, one of the reasons I joined the Little Feminist Book Club is that many people have the common misconception that we only fight for women's rights. That is not true. We fight for everybody's rights. We fight for equality. I think that's another important thing about our campaign. It's not just young girls or women who like face them.

the consequence is it's children, it's people. I think that's what we want to make known that we're fighting for the safety of everybody. And LFB, it's, I've learnt so much joining this club. I've learned that I can share my opinions. I have a voice and I will be heard. To both of you just finally, do you think the government at the moment is doing enough to protect young people from the harm and the risks of porn? Well, with the Online Safety Act and everything that they're passing out, they are seeming to try and help, which is great. We find that amazing. I mean, the developments in just a short time is really good for us. But we think we just need this little bit more to stop it entirely, because do you want to talk about the grey area?

Yes, currently in the law, there is a gray area that people can bypass. The Crime and Policing Act introduced the law that you cannot explicitly show an under 16-year-old or a minor. We have two key arguments for this. One, 16- to 18-year-olds are still children. They should be protected just as much as we should be. But also, if anything, it's a way to bypass this law because school uniform isn't covered, And I think our main argument is that this, it doesn't go far enough. I think to protect everybody, we need to outline, we need to get rid of this grey area

because I could wear a uniform and just say, oh, I'm being a 17-year-old. No, you are being a child. You're trying to imitate that of a minor and that is wrong. That was May and Alyn talking about their campaign there. Well, I'm joined by Claire McGlynn, who's the Professor of Law at Durham University, an author of Exposed the Problem of Extreme Porn. Claire, thanks very much for joining us on Women's Al. What do you make of May and Alin's campaign?

Oh, I mean, all power to them. It's remarkable to hear them talk about both this is how it's affected them and other girls, but their determination to raise this issue and challenge us adults, frankly, for just having kind of normalized it and not really discussed this. I think it's fabulous what they're doing. Aileen touched on the grey area of legislation there. Can you clarify what was meant? So what this is is in April Parliament adopted new legislation that will mean when it comes into force that you can't show a pornographic image of someone who looks or is pretending to be under 16. So what they're highlighting is the fact that if you've got, if you like, an 18-year-old actor who's pretending, say to be, to be under 16,

pretending, say, to be 17 in their school uniform in porn, that's not going to be covered by this new law. And what these girls are saying is, you know, the 17-year-old in school uniform should also not be being depicted in mainstream porn. And so, you know, they've got a really important point there. When we think of the sexy school uniform imagery, you might think of Britney Spears, those images of ties, undone, short skirts. And at a point in the 90s in early 2000s, it seemed to be everywhere,

you know, school discos at clubs where women dressed as school girls. And probably it never occurred to a lot of people that this was sexualising girls. How has that culture changed? I think it's just shifted rather than change. Because, yeah, you're absolutely right. Brittany Spears and many of us are all still very familiar with that sort of, those sorts of images. But what's happened now is it's not that that's gone away. It's not that we've decided it's wrong to sexualise young girls.

It's shifted and arguably it's become even more mainstream because, you know, if the likes of social media, some of the social media platforms, there's lots of, you know, content creators who are pretending to be young, basically. And we've got this genre in pornography about teenagers. And we know that in the last 10, 15 years since Britney Spears, I mean, millions are watching mainstream pornography. So it's, we might not be talking about it as much, but it's still part of our culture, I think, unfortunately.

Just briefly, if you can, how likely do you think that it is that a ban would take place? At the moment, I think, you know, there's lots of legislation about pornography that the girls were mentioning that was adopted in April. That legislation still isn't enforced yet and has not been implemented. So I think what we're probably going to see is the moves to try and get that implemented first, and then perhaps we can turn to, you know, some of the other. issues the girls raise. That's not the answer they're looking for, but I suspect that's what's going to happen. Yeah, they're obviously hugely passionate and continuing in this campaign. Claire McGlynn, thank you very much for speaking to us. And I should just say that we ask for a statement.

The Minister for Victims Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls and International Justice, Alex Davis Jones said, pornography must never normalize or glorify the sexual abuse of children. That's why we are changing the law. So possessing or sharing pornography, which depicts an adult pretending to be a child under 16 will be an imprisonable offence. Now, I'm going to mention a few of your comments about the term widow. We're going to be hearing from a historian in a moment who has been researching the life of widows throughout history. This one here from Diane in Dorset says, I've been single since 2005.

The only time I refer to myself as widow is when I have to complete official documents. The term widow or widower is demeaning. I picture a poor old thing, poorly dressed with a walking stick. After intense grief, I felt a new sense of purpose and freedom. I had to make a new life. I like and value my independence, Diane says. Thank you so much for your comments. There's one more here that I want to mention.

It says when my father died after three days of unconsciousness, my mother's first cries were, Oh my God, Helen, I'm a widow that has always stayed with me. In her most anguish moment, her immediate thoughts were not of losing him, but how she would now be defined. Thank you so much for your comments. I will try to read a few more out because we have got lots of them. So let's go now to the cultural historian Minerkei Shipper. She was reading proverbs from around the world when she stumbled upon an idea for a new research project.

She described it as the last feminist taboo. what happens to women after their husbands die. Well, the research has now become a book called Widows. It looks at widowhood across cultures through the centuries and asks how being a widow affects women's economic independence, sexuality and social status. She also explores the language used around becoming a widow. Well, I asked Milike Shipper about those proverbs about widows

that first sparked her to write this book. I discovered that the problems about widows were quite nasty and unsympathetic. Let me give you some examples. A woman who buries her husband will not hesitate to bury another one. This is French and one from Africa. As soon as the tree is cut down, the shrub next to it isn't worth anything anymore. So it has to do with the hierarchy. of course. And I was quite interested to hear what the word widow actually means in Japanese. Can you explain that?

Japanese friends told me the word Mibojin is the word for widow, but literally it means someone who has not yet died. So in fact it means that she's sitting in the waiting room of death, waiting for her to go as well. Widowhood is associated with emptiness, in fact. And if you go back to where our word widow comes from in Europe, it means in Latin, viduata, it means emptied, made destitute. And this is the word in many languages.

But on the other hand, the status of widower, It's quite different. And some linguists told me that in several languages there is not even a word for them. Why is there no word? It's because they marry immediately. Obviously, we know about the color black associated with widow's dress. And also you speak about the veil. Why was the veil worn originally?

And how did that evolve? Well, when you ask people around now, why would women have warned a fail? And they say because they want to hide their sobbing. But the whole tradition of failing is much, much older. And it has to do particularly with the fact that people were believing that the spirit of the dead man might come back. And you don't know whether he has good intentions or bad intentions.

And he would first. first look for his wife. And so she is hiding her face so that if the veil is there, he might not recognize her. Or she might shave her head or cut off all her hair. So sex has its own chapter in the book. Is there a formula for in that regard how women should act after the death of their husband? Yeah, well, I think you're sure. see, the chest widow has no sex anymore, is the idea in some patriarchal society.

And a good woman, a good widow, doesn't draw any attention to herself. She is quiet and she accepts a sort of partial death. and so she is supposed to withdraw from the world. And I found in China, you can see in some cities, the widow arch, and these are chastity arches. In honor of a hero widow, in the tide of the Qing dynasty, for example, of that time, many of these widows were pushed by the family-in-law because it will honor the whole family to have this memorial arch.

Can you tell us in the book there's a metaphor about having big feet? Can you explain to our listeners what that means? Well, the metaphor of the big feet refers to all the power. a woman can develop. So it's a warning to men who want to find the wife. And it says, never marry a woman who is more talented than you, more educated than you, and in general, more capable than her husband. It seems to be still unbearable to many men, how to handle those women. You mentioned this briefly earlier that in many cultures, the cultures, widows are expected to die soon after their husbands.

Was that surprising to come across that? It's a patriarchal message. When nobody's controlling me, I'm useless. That's a terrible message in fact. To find throughout history in documents and there were all their explorers who wrote down what they found. The message was after the husband's death, a widow, in fact, doesn't belong anymore to the world of the living. Obviously, you've written the book about widows, but do you think that talking about widows is something that we should encourage?

Yes, because they have mainly been ignored. Still, I looked at the numbers, 258 and a half million. widows. It means one out of ten women of marriageable age is widow. One out of ten. And three times more widows are there than widowers. In the United States, for example, three times more widows than widowers. But if we want to look at an example of today, who have made it, let's say. There is one very nice example is a woman whose name is Mara Alicia Benevent. She was 35 when her husband died, had four children,

and it was very hard to make ants meat in life. And then the mayor said to where you can go for six months to the Barefoot College International in India to learn solar engineering. Now, in that very village, there was no electricity. So when the sun goes down, there's no light. And now she has learned how to make solar lamps. And she's building one of them in 20 minutes,

and she's teaching other women, this will is teaching other women how to do this. So they are earning a livable wage and they are bringing light to their villages. So this is quite good, I think. And so we should encourage the positive images. And so there is a life after the death of the husband. That was Miniki Shipper speaking to me there. And her book, Widows, The Last Feminist Taboo, is out now.

Some of your comments, Marie and Somerset has messaged in to say there is often an assumption that being a widow means a woman is old. My closest friend has just lost her husband at the age of 48. In all likelihood, she has 40 years ahead of her. She is, of course, bereft currently, but that is not her identity. She was a wholesome, amazing woman before and she remained so now.

The thought she could be labelled as a shriveled, sad, lonely old lady is ludicrous, but does society think the same, Marie says? We've had a comment from Graham here who says, My wife died 12 years ago when I was 53. When next renewing my car insurance, I was asked if there had been a change in circumstances, to which I replied widower. Other than that, I don't think I have ever used the term, Graham says.

However, I still wear my wedding ring, and Sandy's is on my little finger. So they sit next to each other. Sandy may have died, but I have never divorced her. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Graham. And then this one here says, I don't have a problem with being referred to as a widow. It doesn't happen very often. My husband was happy to be known as my husband and I felt the same as wife.

I'm still his wife today, even though he has died. Society has just changed the tense that was from Eloise. Thank you so much for your comments. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. 25 years on from the deadliest terror attack in history, Why are thousands of grieving families still fighting for answers?

In early 2000, two young Saudis arrived in San Diego. They'd never been to America, spoke almost no English, and had no idea how to open a bank account or rent a flat. Within weeks, they'd done all of it. Twenty months later, they hijacked a plane and crashed it into the Pentagon. Jane McMullen investigates the hidden story of a man who helped two of the hijackers and reveals a story that the US and Saudi governments have fought to keep secret. From Radio 4, this is intrigue, a 9-11 story.

Listen first on BBC Sounds. It's late 2007, and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as chief of operations in 2008, and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts.