Woman's Hour - Three Sisters, Molly Case, Women's Football

Episode Date: April 18, 2019

Three Sisters, Anton Chekov’s 1901 classic play, is on at The Almedia Theatre in London. It's about Olga, Masha and Irina who are frustrated with their small-town life especially after growing up for while in buzzing Moscow. When two glamorous military men arrive on the scene it all gets emotional and sexually charged. Other problems get in the way too and the sisters have to take on responsibilities. Jenni speaks to Patsy Ferran, Pearl Chanda and Ria Zmitrowicz who play the sisters about how this revival of the play still feels relevant to young women today. Molly Case is a young nurse. In 2013 she achieved national recognition for her poem ‘Nursing the Nation’ which she recited at the Royal College of Nursing Congress. She wrote it when she was a nursing student as a reaction to the criticism of the NHS at the time. That performance at the Congress has been viewed over 400,000 times on YouTube. She’s now written a book called How to Treat People – A Nurse at Work. Jenni talks to her about what inspired her to become a nurse and why she wants to champion their work.It's just 50 days to go until the biggest tournament in women’s football begins: the 2019 FIFA Women’s World Cup. It will be held in France. Today five players who've been shortlisted for the BBC Women’s Footballer of the Year Award have been announced. Sarah Mulkerrins from the BBC World Service joins Jenni to discuss the growing popularity of women’s football and gives her own predictions.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Thursday edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. As Manchester United beat Aston Villa in game promotion to the Women's Super League, the BBC announces the five players shortlisted as Women's Footballer of the Year. Who are they and how significant is it that they come from all over the world? And Chekhov's Three Sisters, written in 1900, has an up-to-date adaptation at the Almeida Theatre in North London. The young women who play Olga, Marcia and Irina

join me to discuss what Chekhov has to say to their generation. In 2013, at the height of the scandal around failures at Mid Staffordshire Hospital after the Francis Report was published, a young nurse got up at the Royal College of Nursing Congress and spoke a poem she'd written called Nursing the Nation. We've washed and shrouded people that we've never known, pinned flowers to the sheets and told them they're still not alone, Rydyn ni wedi gwysio a chyflawni pobl nad ydym wedi'u gwybod o'u hunain. Roeddwn ni wedi cymryd llyfrau i'r llyfrau ac wedi dweud iddyn nhw nad ydyn nhw'n unig. Roeddwn ni wedi dangos teuluoedd i'r ffrindiau a gweld iddynt ddynu eu bod yn ddod. Yna fe wnes i'r gwaith yn ôl, fe wnes i'r cymorth yn ymlaen, a wnes i'r llyfrau'n cael eu gwneud.

Yn ddynion, ymwslimion, ymdrinion a'r dynion, ymdrinion a'r christianwyr, a phobl ar y stryd, rydyn ni wedi gofalu amdanyn nhw i gyd, ac rydyn ni'n hoffi'r hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Nid ydym am meddwl, rydyn ni am dangos i chi, felly clywch atyn ni, clywch atyn ni, go iawn. We've cared for them all and we love what we do. We don't want to meddle, we just want to show you. So listen to us, hear us goddamn roar. You say we're not doing enough, then we promise we'll do more. Well, Molly Case was given a standing ovation at the Congress. We only heard part of the poem. She's still nursing now at St George's in Tooting, South London,

and she's still writing. Her book is called How to Treat People. Molly, what prompted you to write the poem? Sure, it feels like a long time ago now, which I suppose it was, but it was a long time ago in so many ways, and so much has changed since then. To answer your question, it was a very strange time to be entering the profession. As you said, with the Staffordshire, the Francis report had just come out, highlighting the horrific things that had been happening, negligence, poor care, nurses, not having enough time to properly look after their patients. And it was inexcusable. But entering the profession being one and a half years in, I had only ever seen

my colleagues being nothing but kind, loving, full of humour, and just wanting to help people that I felt fiercely protective of my colleagues. And it was really a knee jerk reaction for me to write poetry. I'd done it for a very long time. And I decided to pen this poem. I recorded it. I uploaded it somewhere. And it was picked out. And I was invited to speak at Congress. I didn't quite realise what Congress was, arriving in front of 5,000 people in an arena. And I knew as I was performing it that something in the room was happening. We all assume that there's a crisis in nursing now from what we read constantly in the papers. How is it from your perspective now? I think the title NHS crisis is used so much in the media and so often patients come in to hospital and we look after them they say gosh where is the crisis where is the crisis the nhs seems to be thriving i haven't i couldn't have had better gold standard care that's not to

say that it's not underfunded under-resourced understaffed absolutely 100 it is i have to say that i am looking at a very london-centric nhs because that's where I've worked. And so I can't speak for everywhere across the country. Certainly it is underfunded, it's under-resourced. And the most important thing is nurses aren't being funded to become nurses. The nursing bursary has been taken away. That is the crisis. That is an absolute travesty that nurses can no longer enter the profession. Now you studied creative writing

and English literature at university and then decided to become a nurse. Why? Yeah I actually think and I've answered this question before but I think that when I think about it more there is a real poetic through line to that but to answer it more simply I when I was writing at university the first time I took on a job as a care support worker and I looked after people with Alzheimer's for about two years in a little council-run care home on the top of a wet hill in in the southwest and it was the most formative experience for me I'd never had any formal training in care or looking after people and I knew from that moment it was an absolute selfish selflessness.

What a job, what an incredible thing to feel this good every day, making people feel better when they're feeling vulnerable, when they're not sure where something is or who they are anymore when they look in the mirror. What an incredible thing to be able to say to someone, it's okay, I'm here for you, let's talk about this. I knew that I wanted to make a career out of it. So when I have been able to combine poetry, writing and nursing,

I just feel like the luckiest person in the world. Now how to treat people is divided in two sections, A, B, C, D, E. What's the significance of those letters? Sure. is the incredibly smart systematic approach to assessing a patient nurses, doctors, healthcare practitioners use this very fundamental piece of the examination to look at a person from head to toe it stands for Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Disability, Exposure and it's a way of examining a person from head to toe, inside out, to see what might be causing their problem. But for me, it was far more expansive

than just this systematic review of a person's bodily systems. It was a chance to look at the person, how they came to present themselves to us in this way, at this moment in time. Why are they here with us like this? How this way at this moment in time why are they here with us like this how are the expression of themselves in front of us that their soul their spirituality art literature it was a moment for us to look at this person lying in the hospital bed and understand them you do write about some of your patients and there is a very touching description of Eric struggling for breath and then dying alone.

How hard is that part of the job? Sure. I think looking after people when they're dying, it's a real spectrum of emotions when you're looking after somebody in their last days sometimes it can be a happy time when you're able to provide somebody with a good death and a death where they have had everything all their needs met they've been able to have dignity and they've made the choice to have their care withdrawn and simply to be made comfortable and you know that the family with them that can feel great. You only get one chance to get that right. And my mum always says me and my sister are the bookends.

My sister's a midwife bringing people in, and often I'm at the other end. You only get one chance to make that a good death. But as you said when you mentioned Eric, those moments that are traumatic and you feel shame, you feel shame for that person there's mary in the book as well uh who came in thinking she'd had a heart attack now you do specialize in cardiology yeah what happened to her yeah sure um so mary came into us she was a an elderly lady who felt that she had was experiencing chest pain at home we later learned that she was very recently bereaved she'd been married for

years and years and years 60 years yeah that's right exactly um a love that just probably you don't know where the other person starts and you begin. It just goes on forever. And she lost this person in her life, this absolute piece of herself, and she experienced chest pain. So she did the right thing and she was rushed into us. And it presented as all the signs and symptoms of a heart attack. But when we took her into the catheter lab, it actually was not that. It was something called Takotsubo cardiomyopathy, which I was quite impressed that I can run that off the tongue so easily,

which is really not a heart attack. And actually, it's her heart. It's colloquially known as broken heart syndrome. It's a reaction to stress such as a bereavement of trauma or fright. It's rare, but one can fully recover from it. And Mary did. And Mary went on to find the next chapter of her life with her children, her grandchildren, and go home and live with the memories of her husband. But it was an incredible example for me of that romanticism in a way of the heart expressing itself, not just medically, but

for herself spiritually as well. Now, one of the really difficult things you had to confront was your father having heart surgery, being treated on your ward. How did you cope with that? Sure. I think dad was very smart to pick the exact speciality that I worked in. That was very, very clever, I think of him um at the time I rallied I think um it was only in the later weeks that I began to ruminate on what had happened to us as a family and to dad at the time when he was rushed in I was far too aware of every single um aspect of what was going to happen to dad I'd just been privy to watching cardiothoracic bypass surgery.

I was very aware of the clunking machinery of the look of a chest being opened, retracted, the heart being stopped, the exact concoctions that the surgeons use to stop the heart and deflate the lungs. And for me, I wasn't able to separate that from my father lying there having that done. Then again, I felt incredibly privileged to be part of that

and to be able to, when Dad left the hospital, with the help of my family, nurse him back to health. The shift in our dynamic, he'd looked after me for the last however long. It was now my chance to repay that, and I think there's something incredibly special in that. And he's well, isn't he? He's very well. At 81.

He's very well. Very silly, but very well. There was a man who I have to mention, because, you know, sometimes you're looking after people at their most vulnerable, and you're doing very intimate things to them. The man who had a problem with a penis piercing. That's right.

How did you keep his dignity and manage not to laugh? Absolutely. I didn't find the situation funny at all for him. I always think, and the way I try to write about that story was, and I hope it comes across, that of course the scenario is ludicrous and ridiculous. This poor man needs major surgery and the thing that's impacting him is this silly thing that's you know stopping us and I think um I'd met him very early on in

the shift and um we'd formed a relationship he was I'd managed to find out so much about him and his family and his life and what he did in his his hopes and his goals um that we'd formed a relationship and a bond. And when it came to the time that we needed to sort out that problem, I have no doubt that he probably did feel terribly embarrassed. But we constantly reassured him that we see everything every day and kept him as covered as possible. And in the end, I think simply he felt relieved and we never laugh at patients, we laugh at the scenarios we find ourselves in,

especially at four in the morning and the night shift delirium that we all seem to feel. So what would you say are the most important skills a nurse needs? Sure. I think being able to listen to somebody is hugely important. I think we do so much talking now, whether it be on social media or in our real lives. And I think nursing is so much about listening and also so much to realise the importance of touch. And I'd had this wonderful introduction working in the care home where it was so important to be tactile, to reassure people through a handhold or a hand on the forehead or when somebody's dying, letting somebody know that you're there, even if they can't see you really anymore, at least they can feel you.

I think the importance of touch, listening to somebody and making sure you make space for them. It might be your every day at work, but it's probably the most important day of their lives. Molly Case, thank you very much indeed for being with us. And the book, by the way, is called How to Treat People. Thank you. Now, last night, the women of Manchester United had rather a good game against Aston Villa. They won 5-0 and they've been promoted to the Women's Super League. Meanwhile, the BBC has announced its shortlist of five players for the Women's Footballer of the Year award. In a couple of months, the FIFA Women's World Cup will begin in France.

Interestingly, the shortlist for the award this year, won last year by the England player Lucy Bronze, is made up of players from all over the world. Hey, I'm Pernille Mosegaard Harder, and I play for VfL Wolfsburg in Germany, and I'm forward. Harder, schöner Doppelpass. People in Germany call me P. It might be like PP.

Offside! The highlights of last year have been the titles I won with Wolfsburg, the championship and the Pokal. Then of course also playing the Champions League. Even though we lost, it was a big moment for me. She's onside, here she is. Hegerberg looking to finish and has finished. My name is Ada Stolzenhagenberg. I'm a striker for L'Olympe Glionne.

Biggest experience in my life was winning the Ballon d'Or. I wanted to say the Champions League though, because winning the Champions League is the highlight of my career I must say. So doing that the third time in a row was like wow. And then the Ballon d'Or came and I was just like wow, wow. What a year it's been. Ain't no mountain high enough. Horan spins, shoots, and scores.

I'm Lindsay Horan Linesi. I gave myself that name because I'm obsessed. Brilliant goal from Horan. I play for the Portland Thorns and the U.S. Women's National Team. You know, I won that MVP award and I was very proud of myself. It was almost like a weird highlight as well, just because we didn't win the championship. You know, just had this feeling inside that I want more. Honestly, I'm just honored to be up for the award. Oh, Kerr in space.

Hi, I'm Sam Kerr, and I play for the Chicago Red Stars in the NWSL and play for Australia. This could be it. Probably the most rewarding for me was winning back-to-back Golden Red Stars dans le NWSL et pour l'Australie. Ça pourrait être tout! Le plus récent pour moi était de gagner des boots de paix en paix en NWSL, et de remonter dans la W-League. Kerr finit à nouveau! J'ai besoin de cette saison pour prouver à moi-même que je peux continuer à gagner. Elle est incroyable!

Ma vie a changé un peu. Koumagai, quel bon ballon pour Amel Majri! Je m'appelle Lessa Kikoumagai. Nice. Well played. My name is Saki Kamagai. I'm from Olympique Lyonnais and Japan. You always have to laugh. Without football, life is less interesting and too serious. Kamagai is on the repair surface. Best moments from last year.

Of course, it's... Of course, it's becoming Asian champions with Japan and European champions with Olympique Lyonnais. From the beginning of this second period, what a transverse Saki Kamagai at the start of the action. becoming Asian champions with Japan and European champions with Olympique Lyonnais. We win trophies. I love it. For me, it's the best club in the world. So who are these women and how significant is it that they come from such a wide range of countries? Well, Sarah Mulkerins is a BBC Sports presenter. Sarah, who are the five women?

Let's run through those five then, shall we? Let's start then with Pernille Harder. She plays for the Denmark national team and Wolfsburg in Germany. She did the domestic doubles, so she won the league and the cup in Germany last year. They got to the Champions League final. She was the top scorer in the league and she also won the European Player of the Year last year. They got to the Champions League final. She was the top scorer in the league and she also won the European Player of the

Year last year. Then we have Ada Hegeberg. She's from Norway. She plays our club football with Lyon. They won a third consecutive Champions League final this year. She also won the league title and she finished with a record 15 goals in the Champions League and she won the first

ever Women's Ballon d'Or award. Then we have USA's Lindsay Horan. She plays our club football for Portland Thorns. She won the MVP, the most valuable player. They love that term in the States, don't they? She won that award in the league there. She brought her team to the championship final and she helped secure World Cup qualification for the USA.

Then a fourth, we have Australia's Sam Kerr, who plays both in the USA and in Australia. Those leagues are at different times, so she can juggle the two. And she won the top scorer award in both of those leagues. And she was named the Australia captain and won the Cup of Nations with them. And then finally we have Japan's Saki Kumagai. She also plays for Lyon. So she won that Champions League with them and the league title.

And she's a defensive midfielder and she's part of a defence that have conceded just six goals in 20 league games. So all of them are pretty talented. How important is it that they come from such a wide range of countries? Well, football markets itself

as the global game, doesn't it? And for women's football and the growth of the game, it's as important for the women's game to have idols and players representative of what the game stands for. And, you know, this year we have the first Japanese player

in this list. They were World Cup winners back in 2011. So it's important for Japan to be recognised. They play for five different, they're from five different countries and they play in five different leagues. And it's massively important, I think, for young girls growing up to see lots of different players representing them. America has been good for women's football, I think, for a long time. They've really supported it and enjoyed it. What about the other countries? Yeah America has been at the forefront

of the women's game and that's a little bit to do with how college sport works in the USA and Title IX which gave equal access to the women's sport there. Around the world it depends really where you are in Europe it is quite good for it but I cover a lot of African women's sport there. Around the world, it depends really where you are in Europe. It is quite good for it, but I cover a lot of African women's football. I was at the recent Africa Cup of Nations in Ghana

just before Christmas. And there's very little support in terms of, you know, structural support in terms of the finances, the domestic league set up, the fact that the women

who are competing in their international tournaments have very little international games in between the World Cup or the Olympics. So if they qualify for a big tournament like that, they don't have the games in the four years in between to develop themselves. How is the pay question developing? It is developing. It is ongoing. And you mentioned the USA and the fact that they've been the leaders. And in a way, they are also the leaders in this battle for equal pay, because after the last World Cup in Canada, the U.S. women's national team launched a legal fight against the U.S. Soccer Federation, because for the first time, they were able to argue that actually they brought in more money to the US Soccer Federation than the men's team did and that they should be paid equally. And this has been rumbling on since then in various guises.

And we still have legal action, you know, under threat based on that. And you have seen almost a sisterhood develop within women's football and other nations and teams around the world, both at international and domestic level, feeling able to voice their concerns, to come forward, to take a stand and to force football administrators to treat them equally and to treat their concerns with respect. We know that racism in football has been a big problem in men's football this year. How about in women's football? I cover both codes and it's a significant problem in the men's game. I haven't seen it to the extent of the women's game, but I don't think that the women's game should believe that it's not going to become an issue

because you have a lot of club teams linking up with men's teams and there is a risk and potential danger that it could start to creep into the women's game. We had an incident recently where a female player was accused and charged with racially abusing an opponent. She denies that charge but that was one of the first incidents

like that within the game and then we also had another incident in the Women's Champions League that some ultra fans from PSG came over with weapons and that to a Chelsea game and they were arrested and not allowed into the game.

So I think it's something that women's football organisers and authorities need to be aware of the fact that maybe elements that are in the men's game that we do not want could potentially creep into the women's game as it grows. World Cup coming up. Predictions, please. Oh, putting me on the spot. OK, 50 days to go. France are the hosts.

France have a phenomenal team, arguably the most talented collection of individual players. They never put it together, though, on a global tournament front. Their hosts this year, I'm going to back them that they will finally get there and do it. But USA will be so strong. So put my money on France, yes. Oh, don't put any money on anything on my recommendation. Sarah Mulkerin, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning.

And I hope you enjoy it when it comes. Thank you. Now still to come in today's programme, Chekhov's Three Sisters at the Almeida Theatre in North London. The three young women playing Olga, Marcia and Irina discuss their relevance to a new generation of young women. And the serial, the fourth episode of The Citadel. A new edition of the Late Night Woman's Hour podcast is

out and this week Emma Barnett's guests are the scientists Maggie Edwin Pocock and Sophie Scott and the barrister Samantha Davis. If you've caught the podcast in the last couple of weeks you'll know that Maggie has been talking about her experience of taking her baby daughter to work with her. So this

week Emma asked how she handled the question of feeding. It turned out that I started breastfeeding her in unusual places. And I think, I don't know if it's a claim to fame or a confession. It could go either way. But I was invited to a dinner. And I brought my daughter with me. And she was very well behaved behaved but she needed to be fed and I must admit I was sitting on a table

and opposite me was Theresa May and so I have actually bread-fest my daughter bread-fest I spoke to her at breakfast as well so in front of Theresa May so it was quite strange and are we talking like under a cover or did you whip your entire

boob out? I think quite surreptitiously but the thing is for children Theresa May is featuring a lot in this what was Mrs May's reaction? I think slightly perturbed

I don't think she was expecting it because as I said it wasn't obvious it wasn't sort of wow but I think, slightly perturbed. I don't think she was expecting it. Because, as I said, it wasn't obvious. It wasn't sort of, wow! But I think she noticed. I think at first she didn't notice, and then she noticed what was happening. I thought, no. And so it gave me a sort of slightly quizzical look.

And also, one of my other claims to fame is I was being interviewed at the Royal Institution. So this is the bastion of science where Michael Foudé gave his... The Christmas lectures are down there in sort of the huge um um michael founday gave his the christmas lectures are done there in sort of the huge auditorium but um i was being interviewed and my daughter was getting a little uh testy and so i said excuse me but i think i'm gonna have to breastfeed her but what i found interesting was the response of people because some people came up to me afterwards and

said did you do that and did you do that deliberately and it's this idea of starving my daughter please mom please no so yes it was just practical and and so some people sort of said oh yes that was that was amazing and um and i think it very much depends on the situation but in that situation i couldn't see anything wrong with it uh and but the jury will judge me but um uh i thought it was if you've done the whole hiding in places though you'll sound like all sound like they're all very out. Yes, and when I first started, it was, you know, there's the cloth, and you sort of drape it,

and you sort of go into the corner. And the thing is, for my life... The toilets, people go into toilets. Yeah, trying to avoid that. No, that doesn't seem quite... I wouldn't eat my lunch in there, so why would I feed my daughter in there? So I'd avoid that.

But yeah, and I think that's how I started. It was sort of very surreptitious, going into corners. But it became a practicality. I wouldn't be able to do the things that I loved and was passionate about if I couldn't breastfeed her in sort of... Whilst doing them. Quite. Which is absolutely right, though, isn't it?

But see, to me, that's the way it should be. But you are still getting your boob out, and a lot of people are very conscious. Even if they haven't been told off, even if they haven't, you know, it's boob out and a lot of people are very conscious even if they haven't been told off even if they haven't you know it's just quite stressful for a lot of people to to get it yeah well actually because oh well is it stressful for the person or stressful for the people watching yeah no no i mean maybe it is changing did you have any of this sophie i i had a really sort of saddening experience when my son was about two months old one of my colleagues had a baby and i went to uch to um meet him for the first time and as we got to the hospital i

realized i was going to need to feed my son i need to find somewhere quietish so i went down to the um the sort of prenatal care we used to be in the basement of the building so i went down to the waiting room there and um started feeding him and and uh this woman came over and i thought you're surely not going to tell me not to breastfeed my son here in a waiting room at uch and she said no no no i'm a midwife and i'm running a class for pregnant women over here and they've never seen anyone breastfeed can they come and watch of course you can come and watch my son thought this is brilliant but it was it was and i think it it is we have got as a culture particularly in the uk quite disengaged from breastfeeding so i think the more we see it and we talk about it the less of a because it literally couldn't be more of a basic thing to do it's we're

mammals it's you know that's what we do it. Being a mammal is wonderful, and it's a joy. There's also not... What were you saying, Maggie? I was going to ask you. Yeah. That was interesting. Mastitis was the name of the game. Oh!

Ow! Yes. Four times. But the thing was, I actually... It wasn't that I was necessarily embarrassed, but having had a C-section, I couldn't hold him very easily. So it was quite a rigmarole. And I had a very sexy pillow that you would clip around oneself to put heavy baby on, in my case.

And you can't really go, I mean, you look, my husband used to look like an ice cream seller from the 60s because it was candy stripes as well. And I had all these awful visions that I'd always have to use this cushion when out and about. I mean, it would be nice to then sit on, I suppose. But it was very cumbersome. And I had all these awful visions that I'd always have to use this cushion when out and about. I mean, it would be nice to then sit on, I suppose. But it was very cumbersome. So I just physically didn't know how to hold him because I was in quite a lot of pain. And then it just, it never, I was never that natural with it. So I did do it for, I think it was nearly five months in the end. But I just never, I never quite got it, if that makes sense.

Like a lot of people, I always, you see, you see them, because when you're off, you see more people in the day doing that, like crazy people and mums. And they would just be like, oh, whip out, in, on, there we go, baby's feeding. Whereas I'd be like, my child weighs a ton. I'm sweating, it's sweaty work. You need a pint of water with the hands you can reach. And you're really hungry all the time and then I I did have a friend

who I was close to who wanted to breastfeed so badly and couldn't and so then I never felt I could complain because we were off and together

so it's more complicated I suppose I wasn't ashamed of it I just had to also I've got quite large boobs yay I just don't know where I'm going with this and i just do like quite large tears and and

i've got those boobs that you have to fully pull out of the bra yes do you know what i mean yes because i think i could do a sneaky you know tiny boob situation where the baby just goes on and their head fully covers it i felt like my entire breast had to be out. Yes, and more exposed. So there's basically a science behind this as well. And I think breastfeeding isn't straightforward. Because my daughter took to it well, but that's not always the case. Yeah, and what you say about people not being exposed to it also is obviously important, because in lots of different countries,

the children play, boys and girls, and put the dollies to their boobs because they see breastfeeding all the time. Do you know the really, really crazy thing about breast milk that we're starting to find out about now that seems to be specific to humans? I don't know if you've ever tasted breast milk, but it's, like, tooth-rottingly sweet. And that's unusual, actually.

For other mammals, it's not the case. Yeah, and part of our kind of sweet tooth seems to come from that. But also, most of the sugars in breast milk, humans can't digest. What can digest them is the gut microbiome. So in fact, what you're primarily feeding initially isn't just the baby, when you're nursing your baby. You're also bringing up the microbiome, the gut flora and fauna. And that seems to give us an extra bang for our buck.

And it's been associated with some of the unusual aspects of humans. Like we've got these huge brains, which are really metabolically use a lot of energy. And it's been possibly one of the routes for that to be possible. So actually looking at breast milk may give us a link into some of the ways we've ended up being humans. And the Late Night Woman's Hour podcast is out every week. You can subscribe through the BBC Sounds website or indeed the app. Now, a production of Anton Shekhov's Three Sisters opened this week at the Almeida Theatre in London,

directed by Rebecca Frecknell and with Patsy Ferren playing the eldest of the three, Olga. They both won Olivier Awards for Tennessee Williams' play Summer and Smoke this year. The Chekhov has been adapted by Cordelia Lynn, who's made the language spoken very 21st century for a play that was first performed in 1901, long before revolution would change the face of Russia forever.

The sisters at the end of the play, that sees all three resign to the fact that they are not going to get to Moscow and are stuck in a small town in the countryside reflect on their own future. Time passes and we'll be gone forever. Our faces forgotten, our voices forgotten, even how many of us were here forgotten.

But all of our suffering will transform into joy for the people who come after us happiness and peace will fill the world and they'll look back and remember us kindly the sad people who lived and died before them my dear sisters our lives aren't over yet. We are going to live. So what impact does a play about three rather sad, disappointed sisters have to say to a new generation? Riaz Mitrovic plays the youngest of the three. Irina Polchanda is Masha and Patsy Fern is Olga. Patsy, we just heard you there as Olga.

How would you describe her as a character? I think Olga is the eldest, has sort of taken on the mother role. They're motherless and by the time the play starts, they are newly orphaned almost. She's a rule follower. She thinks she can fix things by following her duty, doing her duty. And so she's the sensible one, I'd say. And Pearl, Mesh is not entirely sensible, is she? What do you make of her? Oh, I think she's brilliant. But I think she's, at the beginning of the play, kind of resigned to be stuck and sort of naughty and wants to trick the universe a little bit. And then her heart gets opened up and she feels incredibly deeply, I think.

She's stuck in an unhappy marriage. In a very unhappy marriage and in the middle of nowhere. An attractive man comes to distract her. Exactly, yeah. What about you, Ria? We first see Irina at her 20th birthday, that's in the first scene. She's the youngest. What do you make of her?

I think she is trying to... She wants to start her life and is looking for meaning and wants to get on with things, really. What, Patsy, would you say is the portrayal of siblings like? I mean, it seems to me the sisters clearly love each other, but there is jealousy and annoyance and irritation. And there's a brother who is

absolutely infuriating how accurate is Chekhov's portrayal of siblings I think very accurate I was um I was I thought I knew the play I thought it was about three sisters against the world and there is a little bit of that going on But when we did the first read through on the first day of rehearsals, I was like, oh, my gosh, there's these jealousies, these frustrations. And being one of three as well, I completely recognize it. And especially with their relationship with their brother, they are totally besotted with him but because of that expectation um of someone who's actually very brilliant you see them sort of crumble under the pressure of these three three women strong women who um who sort of break him a little bit without just because they love him so much almost it doesn't do too well when it comes to the wife either does it no his wife no um they don't approve she's a very difficult woman she's horrible

to the servant isn't she yes but so are the so's masha i think they've got very different standards and i think i think that they are snobs they're not particularly nice to Natasha. And then, you know, Natasha's anxiety and kind of desire to be Mother Hen means that she sort of is despicable to everyone. But I think that's a really complex relationship. Yeah, and they're all landed together in the same house, aren't they? Very complicated relationships. Pearl, it was written in 1900,

and the language in your production is, I think you can say, very 21st century, the way it's been adapted. How easily does a 21st century young woman find sympathy for these women? Well, I think to see three young women who are incredibly intelligent and wanting to kind of really be the people that they are, you know, is relevant. But I find, I think the relevance of the play

is more to do with young versus old, actually more than I think of it in gender terms. There are just so many young people in this play comparatively to older people and they're just constantly asking how do we live how do we live how do i make sense of this and all of the older people just going i don't know i can't tell you the doctor particularly is a terribly depressing character isn't it just constantly saying how much he's drunk his life away, wasted his life away. So as the youngest Ria,

there is, I felt, an element of the anxious millennial in your character. The way she talks, there is a kind of self-obsession. She's very unsure of her position in the world. How consciously did you picture in that anxious millennial mode um well for me it was in the writing it was already there and um i suppose i did have an awareness of you know why are we telling this play today um and i thought about if i was coming to watch a production of three sisters um i would want to see something reflected of today's society rather than it being um you know an artifact in a

behind a glass box from something from the past i don't see the point in that really so i suppose there was a conscious element of trying to make it feel relevant because you have a lovely way of speaking that I've heard in so many young women just just give me an idea of how you use your voice to you always go up at the end of the sentence I can't do it can you do a line um oh god um yeah i can't remember my lines now i'm so tired that's exactly it just do it again do it i'm so tired yeah you see she's got that absolutely spot on but they are pearl complex and and flawed but when you look at it even if you were looking at it not updated for the 21st century what would you make of Chekhov's ability to get into the

characters of women it's extraordinary I think and I think really good playwrights do and you don't really I feel like that about Tennessee Williams I feel like that about Chekhov is that I never I never actually start analyzing how good they are at writing women because it just seems so multifaceted and real and you know I mean especially with Masha I think sometimes you just hate her and sometimes you just are completely rooting for her and I think that and I think that with all the characters but I think that is so um that shows a real understanding of women I think more than than any particular I don't know that's it I suppose just on the idea of what the play has to say to 21st century women.

I've known this play for a very, very long time. You know, very long time since I was at university and studied him. And I have to say, there are moments when I'm sitting watching it, and I've seen it a lot, when I'm thinking, oh, for goodness sake, just go and get on the train and go to Moscow. And I wondered if the three of you had that in your minds ever. Why don't they just go? Well, you see, because I think I'm, in terms of my own spirit,

I am very much an olga. I never question authority, really. If someone tells me to do something, if I have, if I'm told you now have the responsibility responsibility of being a teacher and now a headmistress and you have to do your do your job I probably would end up doing that but it just it just happens to be that life hasn't given them the actual opportunity to do it there are these sort of outside factors are forcing them to stay in this where they don't want to be and there are these sort of outside factors are forcing them to stay in this where they don't want to be and there's that line of nothing happens the way you want it to happen

um sometimes they're just on this train and they can't seem to get off um and I sort of I kind of understand that personally from me I don't know about you too well I remember our director saying something about this which I thought was really brilliant which was was that Moscow represents happiness and these women are so down and that they can dream of happiness in Moscow but the idea if they actually did go to Moscow and they were still unhappy, where else would they go? And I think actually emotionally, I think that's really true. Ria, what about you? Do you think, get on the train and go? Yeah, obviously you can't help but think that initially.

But I don't actually see it as a literal thing that they're trying to get to Moscow. So it's, yeah, it's not as literal for me. Now, Patsy, I know you didn't want me to overemphasise this fact but we did speak last year about summer and smoke and you did then win Best Actress at the Olivier's. How was that evening? It was one of the most surreal moments of my life. The high didn't really begin till the next day.

I was just confused for a whole evening, holding quite a heavy statue. And then a pair of heels in the other hand as well. It was amazing, yeah. Well, congratulations. And congratulations to your director too, because she did rather well. And congratulations to all of you

for your production of Three Sisters at the Almeida. Thank you all very much indeed. I was talking to Patsy Ferrum, Pearl Chander and Riaz Mitovic. Three Sisters is at the Almeida Theatre in North London until the 1st of June. Now, you've been getting in touch about Molly Case, who joined us at the beginning of the programme. Tessa tweeted,

Wonderful to hear Molly Case. I was there when she read her poem at Congress. It was very moving. Xantha tweeted, I didn't know about Molly until today, but in the 90s, I worked with her fabulous father, who showed me a photo of Molly, aged about seven, striding purposefully up the path in a nurse's uniform. Fantastic that both his daughters

turned out to do stellar work for the NHS. And we heard from a number of you about breastfeeding. Jean said, at 67 years old and a retired health visitor and mother, I'm disappointed that we still have this same problem. 40 years ago, we young mothers and also health care providers were fighting the same battle. Hilary said, as a woman who breastfed all my three children who are now in their late 20s and 30s, I'm surprised that it's something that people nowadays feel awkward about. I've had all my children in public places in the northwest of England and got no negative reactions. I do think things have taken a step backwards in terms of public breastfeeding being acceptable. Penny said, I lived in a small town in Scotland when I had my son, now 23 years old. A group of us heard that a cafe had asked one of our circle to leave

when she started feeding. Six of us went into the cafe and ordered copious tea and cake and simultaneously breastfed our babies. No one dared ask us to leave. This led to an extreme breastfeeding group. In tomorrow's programme, Jane will be discussing the role of the special guardian, usually a member of a child's extended family, and they take care of the child under a special guardianship order. And she gets tips on how to live a more environmentally friendly

life from toothbrushes to energy suppliers, what can you do around the home to have less impact on the planet? That's all from me for today. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.