Woman's Hour - TikTok sleuths, Widows, Politicising Taylor Swift, Surgery critics 'silenced'

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

Yesterday, Kate Garraway returned to Good Morning Britain following the loss of her husband, Derek. She spoke about her reaction to being called a widow for the first time, by a delivery man, apologising for her loss. Anita Rani speaks to Poorna Bell, a journalist and author who lost her husband in 2015, and Karen Sutton, host of The Widow Podcast, who became a trained grief coach after her husband passed away in 2016. Anita Rani talks to a woman who says a cosmetic surgery clinic tried to silence her after she reported concerns about her eye operation. Signature clinic is taking five people in total to court after they posted negative reviews or comments on support groups. A judge has thrown out an attempt to get a gagging order against one of them. BBC reporter Melanie Abbott speaks to the woman concerned. And that woman's solicitor tells Anita what she thinks this judgement means for free speech. A trend is surfacing on social media, where women reach out to one another with a request - Can you find out if my partner is cheating on me? Anita speaks to Becky Hayes from The Laura and Becky Show podcast, who is creating social media content out of these requests and a journalist who has researched the subject, Beth Ashley, for a discussion on the morality of social media investigators. Although payments are not taken for these requests and identities are kept secret, some might ask whether it’s appropriate to make humorous content, out of what could possibly be very devastating news for someone. And without the context of the relationship to inform them, whether the trend invade people’s privacy. Fans are eagerly waiting to see if Taylor Swift will make it from Tokyo to Las Vegas in time to support her American footballer boyfriend Travis Kelce at the US Super Bowl this Sunday. Many in the Trump camp are watching closely too, as right-wing conspiracy theories run wild that the pop megastar might use the event to influence the presidential elections. What is going on? Anita talks to BBC reporter Holly Honderich, based in Washington.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. Now, Kate Garraway went back to work yesterday. It was her first day back after the death of her husband derek draper and this is what she said on good morning britain the other day somebody called me a widow for the first time took a breath away it was an amazon delivery person who said i'm so sorry for your loss now that you're a widow and you suddenly

realize and i suddenly realized what everyone goes through, that every single moment is something new and we've all just got to get through it. And everybody has it with all sorts of things they're facing. Kate Garraway there talking on GMB on ITV. The clip came courtesy of ITV Studios. Interesting, isn't it? Kate acknowledging another part of her grief process and that word, widow. Well, this morning, I'd like to hear about your experience of being a widow. Do you, like Kate, remember being called widow for the first

time? What effect did it have on you? How did things change for you if they did? You may not necessarily have changed, but the way the world views you would have. If it did, I'd very much like to hear your experience. People might have started to treat you in a new way. It's someone else acknowledging that your situation has changed. Did you feel as though you were treated differently? Were you expected to behave differently? So this morning, being called a widow, what did it mean for you? Or indeed, if you've seen it around you, watch how people treat widows. All your thoughts on this, welcome.

Get in touch in the usual way. You can text me on 84844. You can email me through the website. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. And there is also WhatsApp. You can leave me a message. You can leave me a voice note.

It's 03700 100 444. Already your thoughts on this coming through. Sabina says, I still don't like the term. Never introduced myself as one. I'm happy to say my husband died or I lost my husband, but hate the word widow. Still tick misses on forms and status as married. And Chris says on Twitter,

walking around a supermarket and shopping for one, so many items say serves two. It was like a knife plunging into your heart. Keep your thoughts coming through on this, 84844. Also on the programme, if you suspected your partner of cheating, would you want to catch them red-handed on social media? It's a service being offered by a duo on TikTok. I want to know your thoughts about this. What do you think? And a huge weekend for sport in the US. It's the Super Bowl. But all eyes, or at least all

political eyes from both sides of the spectrum, Democrats and the Republicans, are on whether Taylor Swift will make it to the event as her footballer boyfriend, Travis Kelsey, will be playing. Right-wing conspiracy theorists are suggesting she'll use the event to influence the political agenda. She's powerful, but is she really that powerful? We'll be discussing it later in the programme. And of course, your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the programme always welcome the text number once again, 84844. But first, yesterday, Kate Garraway returned to Good Morning Britain following the loss of her husband, Derek.

She spoke about her reaction to being called a widow for the first time by a delivery man apologising for her loss. Did you have a moment where you realized everything had changed? Perhaps this term started being used to refer to you or had you had to shift your language to refer to someone you've lost from is to was. Well joining me to discuss this is Purnabel, a journalist and author who lost her husband in 2015 and Karen Sutton, host of the Widow podcast who set up the podcast and became a trained grief coach after her husband passed away in 2016. Morning Purna, morning Karen, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Purna I'm going to come to you first, I know you've spoken about this before but can you tell us your experience losing your husband? Purna is not there, maybe i could go to um karen yeah oh there you are sorry for now there you go three years and i still haven't grasped zoom um so i i um i lost my husband rob in 2015 and it was very very unexpected he died by suicide and I was 34 when he died. So as a word, the word widow is something that I very much associated with much older women and it just felt like a word that didn't fit me and also because of the circumstances and how I felt around losing him, I had no other words that defined me.

But it seemed to be this very specific word that someone would sum up everything that I had been through into this one word that felt very disorientating, I think. What was it like being a widow so young? Were you able to find a network of support? And also, do you remember the first time like Kate when someone's used that word? Yeah, I would venture to say most people will remember that moment when it was first used. And it usually isn't, you know, a friend or a family member who would use it because, you know, you already know what's happened. But I was in, I was in the bank, and I had to cancel our joint account. And obviously, when you cancel a joint account, normally, you would have to get both parties, right to cancel that account. And the woman at the bank wanted to know why it was just me.

And when I sort of explained very briefly, she just looked absolutely shocked and she said oh my god but you're so young to be a widow and my heart just dropped you know I just in in sort of in one fell swoop I I realized that that was a word that was now applicable to me I already knew the fundamental truth of it that that's what I was but it was also the the look in on her, you know, it's something that I think widows and widowers have to deal with a lot. And it is very difficult, especially in those early years when you're already feeling so raw from grief, but where you're then having to caretake someone else's reaction and also the amount of, like, pity that is on the other person's face

that you just don't have the emotional equipment to deal with. Yeah. What was the look on her face? She just looked horrified like she and that horror is something that you realize is about you as a person. That's something that that that you're going through. And it's fine if I can verbalize that about myself. It's fine if I can say I've been through something, you know, really difficult. To see that reflected in someone else's eyes when also they don't really know, you know, what the situation is or how much love you have for your spouse and all of those other things. The sort of the distance between that can be really, really hard to reconcile, I think. And then the weight of something you just said struck me that you had to then,

you feel you have to caretake their reaction. Yeah, because when someone says when they look really horrified and they say, I'm sorry, your first reaction is, no, don't worry, it's fine. Even though it's not fine, it will never be fine. It's never something you really get over. You have to then say to them, don't worry, I'm OK. It's fine, even though that's not how you feel inside. Karen, I'm going to bring you in. Do you remember the first time the word was used for you? For me, it was something I realised myself. I was in the car, it was only a day after my husband died in 2016. And I was just sat in the front of the car. And

it just suddenly occurred to me, you know, oh my God, I'm a widow. I'm a widow. I'm 39 years old and I'm a widow. And I didn't really know what that meant. We have a preconceived idea, I think, of what widowhood is and what it looks like. And, you know, it's older people dressed in black and you think, oh, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to be that person. Am I going to become miserable and bitter and resentful and angry at the world? And are my best days behind me? Is the rest of it going to be dark and heavy and sad? You know, what is that?

There's so much uncertainty in that word. And, you know, am I still married? Am I a miss? Am I a missus? Like, legally, where do I stand? What is a widow? And where does that fit in society um loads of people getting in touch with us about this i'm just going to read a couple of messages out here um someone has said i became a widow 14 years ago after i moved to scotland 22 years ago

i was 46 then not long after everyone seemed to drop away I don't mind the term widow but felt adrift as a woman um Burna did you feel like people started to see you differently like you changed in in some way yeah definitely I mean I felt like people thought I was never going to recover from this that there was just something fundamentally broken that could never really be fixed. And that I felt, whether it was someone I knew well, or someone that I didn't know very well. And, you know, to Karen's point, you just are trying to define yourself, like you are going through this unimaginable thing, you're trying to define what your life looks like. But then you also have this sense in the wider world that there's this expectation, or there's this definition of what this person is that just doesn't seem to, you know, fit where

you're at. And I think that, you know, in terms of, like, what people view you, like, how they view you as or what they think your life must be like, I can only speak for myself, but there was something that felt very defiant about what that was going to be and how that was not going to fit what other people thought about me, as well as how much weight I gave to their opinions. of resentful I mean these stereotypes that we think of and um and for Prerna you get coming from an Indian background you know there's a whole other side of sort of the the cultural connotations of being a widow yeah um I mean I did not it sounds ridiculous but at the beginning I didn't really even take that on as a thought because I think there was just so much going on and then I decided to go traveling I quit job, and I went did a bit of traveling around India and Nepal. And it wasn't that, for example, my family or anyone made me

feel like that. But in those countries, there is a massive distinction between someone, for example, who is a widow, and you are relegated to one of the lowest rungs of society, you're ostracized, you're kept in, you're asked to live in a different section of the house rungs of society you're ostracized you're kept in a you're asked to live in a different section of the house you know you're allowed to eat vegetarian food you know no um no meat for you and so there's these there's these massive um uh differences over there and i remember sort of when i was going around i was doing a tour in calcutta and their guy pointed out this historical house and said oh that's the wing where the widows used to live and um and all these other things that widows had to do and I said so okay so

let's say it's a widower what do they have to do and surprise surprise they don't have to do anything different they just like you know remarry and go about and live their lives and that Anita was the spark of something very very angry I think with me like, oh, so you've gone through one of the worst experiences and your prize at the end of it or your support is being ostracized. And I think I just realized that I don't know that society understands grief in general. It sure as hell doesn't really understand what widowhood is like, particularly if you are a younger widow. And that is something that made me realise I have to kind of carve my own path and figure out what those things are that matter to me because it wasn't going to come from society. Karen, you talk to women about this all the time on your podcast.

What do they say to you about the term widow? And I'm sure you're probably nodding along and listening to Purna as well. Oh, so much, so much resonates there. Absolutely. Do you know, everything changes. And, you know, like you say, we do live in a grief illiterate society. We don't know how to behave around grief. Like Kate Garraway said yesterday, people don't know how to treat me anymore. They don't know what to say to me. And, you know, everything changes. When you lose a life

partner, you don't have your normal to go back to anymore you know that the way you think the way you see the world that your way you fit in the world your friendships everything shifts but you know within my communities um you know because i support widows that's what i do now there's very much a dislike for the term widow. People fight it. They don't like it. And I think that's because there's this preconceived idea about what a widow is. And I understand it. I felt the same at the beginning.

But I think what helps is to shift that mindset around how we look at it. And, you know, let's change that. Widows aren't older and dressed in black and miserable and resentful. Widows are incredible, astounding, compassionate, brave, courageous people and widowers. And I think that needs to be recognised. It takes a long time to navigate grief and rebuild a life after the loss of a life partner. And I think for me, I'm really proud. I'm really proud to be a widow. I loved my husband for the rest of his life. I did what I said I was going to do. I did it to the best of my ability. His story ended way before we thought it would, sadly. And mine continues.

And, you know, like I say, I'm proud of that. I'm proud I loved him until the end of his life. And I'm proud to be a widow because I think widows are just extraordinary, wonderful people. And what about the language around it? Because you're right, we don't know how to deal with grief. So what would you say to people? The language is difficult and, you know, it's something that comes up a lot. And I think one of the biggest things that people find hard hard is when people say you know have you moved on it's about time you moved on now and and I think in that there's a sense that by moving on from something you're moving away from it you're leaving it behind actually if we if we rephrase that to moving

forward it allows space to to carry the grief forward with you and the love that you have for your person. And grief evolves over time. It softens. It becomes easier to carry for sure. But it's always there. It doesn't go away. And we move forward with it. And we learn to integrate it into our lives in a more peaceful way. And we can create something beautiful again. Like I say, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time. It takes a lot of support. And a lot is very different.

But different doesn't mean bad. And I think, you know, the words are important to people because they are very easily triggered. But having said that, what feels good to one widow won't feel good to another. And this is, it's so difficult because you can say something on one day and it will feel positive and uplifting. And another day, it will feel really triggering and challenging.

And Pona, you have spoken very honestly, devastatingly, beautifully about your experience and the process of grief. And we've had you on Woman's Hour before talking about powerlifting. So I just wonder what life was like then versus now, how far you've come and that defiance after your trip to India and Nepal, how that spurred you on? Yeah, I mean, at the beginning, people will tell you that it gets easier and it's really hard to believe. And I try to hold on to that as much as possible and I think the beginning was

very much about control and safety and just trying to keep my world as small as possible and then something shifted kind of on its axis in terms of I didn't just want to kind of survive with my grief I wanted a life that was really full and you know to what Karen was saying I think the reason why for some of us the word widow feels so hard is because it encapsulates all of our loss when actually there's so much love there like if you were in a loving relationship you you hold that love like really close to you you know it's been nine years since I lost my husband and that love hasn't diminished or wavered or decreased in any shape or form it's part of me and it's part of who I am.

And would he want me to be sequestered away, you know, with a shrine to him? No, he would want me to live my life. He'd want me to be happy and to enjoy as much of it as possible. And I think that's why also connecting with a community of people who've been through something similar is also really important because life for me now looks completely different to how it did at the beginning yeah how did that help in terms of connecting with the community because it makes you realize that you're not alone like all of these kind of things that you do that other people around you quote marks might think are

crazy you realize are actually completely normal and completely reflective of the experience that you're going through your loved ones may have lost the same loved one that you have but the relationship particularly if it is a spouse is not the same you know because you are left having to redefine your future in a way you didn't think that you would have to and I think so for me when I don't mind the word widow being used is when someone introduces themselves to me and tells me that they're a widow, because I understand. I may not understand exactly the type of their loss, but I know I know about that singular point. I know what they've had to do for themselves. I know the bravery that they've had in terms of navigating the world again.

And that to me is a community word that instantly will connect me to you because I understand a very fundamental part of you. So I think sometimes it is also about reframing things in a way that works for you. And that's something that I've had to do multiple times over the last few years. Well, so many people are getting in touch. So I'm going to read a few of the messages out. And Anne says, being acknowledged as a widow recently by a friend was hugely important to me. My husband and I separated and were divorced, but over many years became close again, so much so that I cared for him in the last few years of his life after his stroke. Since he died last summer, I have felt widowed, and my friend was recognising the enormous grief I feel. Another message here, I became a widow in

April 2019 after my husband died from prostate cancer. I think people didn't know how to treat me and still don't they were embarrassed and some close neighbors even crossed the road to avoid having to speak to me i don't receive the same invitations i once said it's not catching widow is a horrible word with huge connotations i'm trying to rebuild my life and we'll be going on a nordic sea adventure thinking of skydiving and finding a lover good Good for you. And another one here says, my husband died on Christmas, four days after my 32nd birthday. I had a baby, four months old and a toddler.

I hate the word and refuse to be defined by it. I'm now 86 years old and still hate it. Keep your thoughts coming in. For now, Bruno Bell and Karen Sutton, thank you so much for speaking to me about that. Now, if you had cosmetic surgery and weren't happy with the results, you might go on to a support group and ask for advice about what to do. Well, that's what Tracy Holland did, and it landed her in court. She was accused of harassment and threatened with an injunction

by the clinic involved signature. As we've reported before she's amongst five women and one man faced with legal action after posting unfavourable comments about signature on support groups and review sites but a judge has thrown out the application to gag Tracy describing it as totally without merit. Well Melanie Abbots has been following all of this and can tell us more about it. Morning, Melanie. Morning. So remind us, tell us about this case. Yeah, this case is quite a success story, really. It's the story of one woman taking on really quite a big corporation. Signature Clinic has got eight centres in cities all around the UK.

Tracy had her eye surgery last February in the Birmingham centre. She wasn't happy with the results. So she posted on a support group on Facebook. She was looking for advice. She wanted to know what she could do. Now, earlier, she told me all about the operation and then she told me what happened next. It was a local anaesthetic.

I had to stop him partway through when he was doing the operation on my right eye first. I think he asked the anaesthetist to put some more in. Exactly the same happened with my left eye. So the operation for me was quite uncomfortable. It made me think somebody literally putting a spoon inside my eye and, you know, digging it in. That's the feeling I felt. What was the outcome like? I was quite happy at first after about maybe week five, week six when the swelling had started to go down. I noticed a lot of scarring that I couldn't see when I had the swelling there. I got lumps and dents on my lids. I found the Facebook group

after I'd had the surgery. I was originally posting on that group to say I was happy with my surgery. After a few weeks, I posted that I wasn't so happy with the surgery, pointed out the things that my concerns that I could see. And then somebody from the group actually pointed out that I had webbing on my left eye. It's like another piece of skin coming over from the corner of the eye and so we make sure I look webbed in the corner. When you posted these comments then did the clinic contact you immediately? I think it was June time that I actually was the first interaction I had with the clinic when I had a letter from their solicitor. I didn't really take much notice of it.

I just carried on asking for advice. So then eventually you got a letter saying they were taking you to court? Yes, I was away with my friends and I woke up one morning and I had an email to say he was taking me to court. I felt sick. I really did. I was with my friends. It was the first morning that we woke up. I had to tell them what had happened. It literally spoiled the four days I was away because I couldn't concentrate on anything else other than this letter, what I'd received, court letters and bundles of posts that I made on that group. It scared me. So I replied and I told him I would stop posting. I couldn't afford to get solicitors to help me.

He said that he would reject my offer and the fear of imprisonment for breach of an injunction was the only way to stop my itchy fingers and to stop reputational and financial harm to his client. He threatened me with imprisonment, he threatened me with bankruptcy as well, he threatened me that I may have to sell my house. I was worried about obviously my home. Impr imprisonment didn't really scare me to be honest because I did think there's no way am I going to go prison for asking for help on a support group but the sale of my home did worry me because I knew if I got gas solicitors then I knew it wasn't going to be you know cheap. Now the case has been heard found in your favour but what was it like having to go to court? Horrible it's constantly been in my mind no matter what even you know cheap now the case has been heard found in your favor but what was it like having to go to court horrible it's constantly been in my mind no matter what even you know through my birthday

through Christmas through just them whole three months I've just felt sick with worry to be honest how confident were you that you would get this outcome I wasn't confident at all I was I was really worried even though I was told by others I hadn't really done all. I was really worried, even though I was told by others I hadn't really done anything wrong. He was like a dog with a boon. He just wasn't letting go. So it made me think that he was really confident that he was going to win his case

because of the way he kept on and on and he wasn't backtracking at all. It did make me feel nervous that maybe they knew something I didn't. They did terminate my aftercare. I did have a letter in September from their chief medical officer. He mentioned that I possibly had psychological problems because the amount of times I was asking for advice on that Facebook group, I didn't have any aftercare at all that I could

go to then. So I really needed the group more than ever to ask for advice. The judge said that it's quite unprofessional for their chief medical officer to actually say that I've got psychological problems. So, I mean, it's quite a story though, isn't it, Tracey? I mean, how do you feel now having kind of taken on this large company and having been successful? Massive, massive relief. Honestly, I can't tell you. I just felt really tearful because finally it was over and I knew that I could just carry on with my life again as normal without having that massive worry. You are OK there if you're happy with your surgery. And if you're not happy or something's not quite right and you need to ask for advice,

you need to be careful because that's all I did. And then they came after me. And Tracey did tell me that she wouldn't have been able to do this, to take the legal action without the support of the Free Speech Union, which has helped her and which put her in touch with a solicitor. And did she have any advice for other people? Well, she did say that other people on support groups were still recommending Signature. And she said she understood that many people are happy with their surgery. But she did say that she felt that they should be mentioning these issues that others have raised with the company.

Well, Tracey's solicitor, Megan Grew from Reynolds, Porter and Chamberlain is here. Morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Tracey. Megan, sorry. On what grounds did the judge throw out the case? Let's get into this a little bit. So the judge actually decided to throw the case out on two grounds. The first was that there were no reasonable grounds to bring this claim. So the judge was taken to a number of posts which Tracy had made in this Facebook support group for the particular type of procedure that she'd had. And from looking at the posts that he was shown in the hearing, he found that there was no way that this was harassment.

It fell so far below the standard that's required to make out a claim in harassment, which for some context, that's causing fear, alarm, distress. It's oppressive conduct. It's essentially a criminal standard. And the judge just wasn't convinced that Tracy's comments seeking support and documenting her concerns about her recovery, anywhere near that standard. The second ground, and I think perhaps the more notable one, was that this was an abusive process.

So that means using effectively the court's procedures and the law in a way that it wasn't originally designed for. The judge referred to a number of communications that were sent by the claimant's signature solicitor in which he, as Tracey's mentioned, threatened potential imprisonment and that the fear of imprisonment would stop those itchy fingers and prevent her from posting further.

And this is what they said. They described her as having itchy fingers. Yes, yeah. That was in a letter or an email, rather, that was sent to her before we were instructed. So this was while she was self represented, that these kind of communications were being sent to her. But it went further, actually. So the judge saw an email, which was again sent to Tracy directly, in which the chief medical officer for signature made suggestions that she had an obsession, that she had psychological issues,

and saying that she may be ordered to pay five to six figures in legal costs if Signature were to succeed. And the judge actually found that the fact it came from the chief medical officer to be an aggravating factor in the abusive process ground. It's what you talked about, Melanie, didn't you? The psychological problems that they suggested she had and not actually what the impact that has on somebody when it's a letter from a big corporation. Absolutely. She was terrified by that. Why do you think, Megan, the judge took such a dim view of things?

I think, I mean, for the reasons mentioned, this was clearly conducted in a way that potentially was intimidating to Tracy. The judge noted that it was very likely to cause her significant distress and upset. And the judge also went further and found that this claim was totally without merit. That's essentially the judge going on record to say that this was bound to fail. He also commented on the way that the case had been conducted. In particular, he noted that it wasn't actually until six o'clock in the morning on the day of the hearing that we found out in any detail specifically which post Tracy had been accused of harassing Mr. Gotti and Signature through. How important do you think this case is when it comes to free speech? I think it's incredibly important. And the judge noted in the

case that Tracey's right to freedom of expression under Article 10 was engaged by this. And that actually there'd been a wholesale failure of the other side to acknowledge that. I mean, this is someone posting on a Facebook support group. Yeah, which people do all the time. Exactly. And trying to seek support and document her recovery journey, raise concerns she had with the treatment for a major medical procedure that she'd had. And I think if we lived in a world where companies could shut down any and all criticism, and even people seeking support support I think that would be

incredibly concerning. Well support is one thing but also we live in review culture and often you rely on those reviews don't you whether it's a holiday or plastic surgery or whatever it might be. Absolutely. There are five other people tied up in this waiting for their cases to be heard or what can we look into what can we think what's your thoughts your thoughts on that so my firm rpc are instructed on those are the five claims and that litigation is ongoing so i can't speak too much to the detail of that but what i can say is i think it's really encouraging that we've had this result in tracy's case and it shows that the courts are willing to you know strike out claims that are made without merit and claims which potentially have the effect of silencing people's freedom of expression. And even a traumatic experience for

Tracy, but what a relief. Yes, absolutely. Meghana, thank you so much. Melanie is still in the studio. What does the Signature Clinic have to say? The clinic sent us a statement and it says, Signature is one of the UK's largest cosmetic surgery operators and has treated more than 24,000 patients. It goes on to say, We welcome honest feedback from clients and we will always try to resolve any issues directly through our customer service channels in the first instance. Taking legal action will always be a last resort, the statement says. We have noted the judge comments and we accept his judgment.

Now, I did ask Signature if this case would have any bearings on the five others, as you've just asked, Megan. Yeah. But we were told that there was no comment on that issue. Well, we'll wait and see. We'll just get back in touch with you, Megan, and find out. Megan Gray, thank you so much for coming in. And Melanie, thank you too. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about the first thing we talked about this morning, which is the term widow. Kay says, when is it timely to start dating? Not sure my friends approve, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone. I've been widowed for seven months. When is it time?

Jill says, as a retired registrar, I saw the shock of being termed a widow or widower when reading through and signing the death certificate of their spouse at registration I never got over that sadness on their face at seeing their new status written down and Jenny says it must be dreadful to lose your partner when young but can I speak for older people in that position I lost my partner when we were 75 years old after he'd been ill for 18 months so I felt I should have been prepared but it was devastating and I hate the word can't even say it Sarah says I wasn't allowed to have that privilege as we weren't married second class grief she says and another one here says I was kind of geared up for widowhood because we were married in the hospice after 14 years together only two years ago I still wear my wedding ring and will say widowed with a nod

when someone asks if I'm married. I'm 56, have pink hair and wear lots of colour and patterns. I feel I am claiming the word back from the dreary drudge of Victorian black garb. I always say thank you when people say they are sorry for my loss. I cry every day, but no one needs to see that. I was officially married for 11 days, but I will remain married for the rest of my life.

That text number once again, 84844. There are lots of messages coming in and I will try and read as many of them as possible before the end of the programme. Now, a trend is surfacing on social media where women reach out to one another with a request. Can you find out if my partner is cheating on me? On TikTok, young content creators offer a service called honey trapping.

Women can ask them to inbox flirty messages to their partner to find out if they respond. Often payments are not taken for these requests and identities are kept secret, but they're agreed on the basis that content can be produced about them. The cheat expose trend has taken other formats. Two podcasters take requests to snoop on people's partners outside gyms, offices and pubs and create playful live videos on the stakeouts on Instagram and TikTok. Again, all identities are kept secret

and no payment is taken for the requests. But some might ask if it's appropriate to make humorous content out of what could possibly be very devastating news for someone and without the context of the relationship to inform them. Does the trend invade people's privacy? Well, to talk about this, I'm joined by one of the two women who is from the podcast, The Laura and Becky Show podcast. It's Becky Hayes. Welcome, Becky.

And Beth Ashley, a journalist who's researched this subject for a Channel 4 documentary, Cheat Detectives, The Loyalty Test and a Refinery29 article. Welcome, Beth. I'm going to come to you first, Becky. Tell us about the process that you follow once you get a request. What happens? Talk me through it. Morning, Anita. Happy to be on this morning. I mean, if you'd have said to Laura or I four months ago that we would be on Women's Hour talking about this, we wouldn't have believed you. But here I am. So the process that you asked

about. So people tend to get in touch with us via TikTok or Instagram, wherever it is that they've seen our videos. And they will message us directly and sort of give us a little bit of background, you know, on what's going on in their relationship or why they think their partner might be cheating. And then they will give us a location that they want us to go to or you know perhaps a few different locations that would be appropriate and they give us the relevant information um and then you know if we feel like it's the a safe one to do or the right one to do it feels kind of okay for us to go and do it Laura and I will discuss it at length and then we go along and we do it and then what what do you post on social media?

So on social media, we're always very, very conscious about people's privacy. We're not invasive at all. We'll go along. And actually, if you've seen any of our videos, you'll see that it's more so about Laura and I in the car, what we're doing, what we're getting up to, our reactions to things that are going on. And it

definitely is quite lighthearted. But obviously, you know, we do understand that this is potentially a serious situation for somebody at the same time. But we never show anybody, we never show, you know, the person that we're watching. We never talk about who they are. We never say where we are. We're always very, very conscious that we keep all of that completely confidential it's interesting isn't it you say light-hearted but that's what we're going to get into is it light-hearted beth what are your thoughts on this what are your thoughts on the morality of this social media trend in general um so i know that most people producing the content tend to be coming from a really good place and it's even sells those relationship vigilantes in a way and they're trying to save women from

being hurt by their cheating partners or partners they suspect are cheating but I don't really think it's okay for a lot of reasons like when the woman has consented and requested it I still don't think it's really quite right because a lot of the tactics we tend to be using to follow these potential cheaters and find out whether they're actually doing it are awfully similar to the sort of techniques we see when partners are emotionally controlling their partners. So in abusive situations and stuff, things like spyware, following people to different locations. These aren't necessarily things that Becky and Laura are doing, but the trend on a scope on TikTok does involve these techniques. And they look awfully similar to what an abusive partner would do.

And for me, I think the way that we moralise cheating is a big part of that. I think most of the things we're doing to catch cheaters would not be OK in any other situation. But because we see cheaters as on the same level as murderers sometimes in society, we hate cheaters. We hate cheating and we think that cheaters are always cheaters and don't give any room for nuance there. It kind of makes that all okay.

Becky, what do you think? I mean, I'd like to say that, first first of all Laura and I are not honey trappers in any way shape or form we're not encouraging cheating we're not even hoping that cheating is the outcome when we go and you know watch somebody all we do is go along to a location and report back on whether they are where they said they were going to be that is it what people do with that information is completely up to them and we don't really tend to get too involved either because like Beth just said we don't know you know the background of the relationship we don't know the history we don't know what's going on we are simply turning up to watch and see if somebody is where they said they're meant to be and reporting that information back but isn't that the point you

don't know the history you don't know the context, but the consequences of what you're doing could be devastating for both parties. Absolutely. But I think all of the girls that come to Laura and I, they know the school, they've seen us on social media, they know what they're getting when they come to us. And what's actually happened with us as well is we've built up this incredible community of women. And I think this is obviously such a big thing that a lot of women relate to, because the views that we're getting on,

you know, TikTok, Instagram, the messages that we're getting from women on a daily basis of people that have been cheated on, or they know somebody that's been cheated on. And I think they feel that with Laura and I, they can talk to us. Perhaps they haven't got a friend they can talk to about this or a family member. And I think they feel that with Laura and I, they can talk to us. Perhaps they haven't got a friend they can talk to about this or a family member.

And I think they feel that with us in the community we've built, they're in kind of a safe place and they can confide in us about that sort of thing. Beth, Becky and Laura have a rule that they don't offer this service for relationships where children are involved. Is that enough of a parameter? I don't think so personally I think it's problematic in itself and a view that we share in society that children are what constitutes a family I think families are still being hurt you are still kind of invading your family if you engage in this when someone is married and someone is long-term living together I don't I don't think just avoiding children means that you're avoiding family conflict. Becky?

I mean, that's a decision that Laura and I have taken because we both have children. That's just something that we relate to and that's a personal decision that we've taken. But I think as well, I mean, this type of thing is going on every single day. It's just that Laura and I are documenting what we're doing on social media,

the private detectives who go and do it, obviously. There's friends, there's family that people, we've had loads of messages from people saying like, oh, yes, I've done this with my best friend. Somebody asked me to go and do it or a family member wanted me to go and do it. So it is happening all the time. Anyway, I think just people aren't necessarily documenting it. So I understand that you don't take payments payments but you have faced criticism that the popularity of this unpaid social media content is potentially channeling new listeners to your podcast which is the main source of your income yes no we don't take payments on it at all again that's a decision um that both laura and i have taken um it's definitely improved the listeners to our podcast we'd be lying if we, you know,

if we didn't say that. But initially, that wasn't the thought behind it. We had no idea when we posted our first video, we did this for our friend, that it was going to go viral. Literally, when we posted that video, we were both completely shocked by the amount of women that were watching. I mean, the views were in the millions and still are. So it's, you know, women are just so invested and they can relate to this. Yeah. What is that? Why do you think that is? I think because so many people have been cheated on or know somebody that's been cheated on. Do you think there's also an element of sort of voyeurism and just people being interested in other people's gossip? Absolutely. There's definitely an aspect of that. I think people do like a bit of drama. They like watching where you know something might be about to happen the anticipation but I certainly we can go

off the messages that we get and like I said there are hundreds upon hundreds from women that we get every single day talking about their own experiences with being cheated on but what about it's what Beth said as well the idea that the background of the relationship isn't taken into consideration people cheat men cheat women cheat it's part of the human experience absolutely but i think nobody knows the the true background or history of anyone's relationship i mean we know we don't even know some of our our closest friends the history of their relationship or what goes on behind closed doors yeah exactly listen all we're doing is turning up and we are trying to help out these women who perhaps feel that they've got nowhere else to turn or perhaps they need a bit of closure on

their relationship or perhaps you know they just need to know for their own um sanity in their own state of mind what's going on and that's exactly what we go and do for them i wonder how people would feel if it was the other way around, if it was men sitting outside places waiting for women. Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the context in which they were doing this. But I guess there are men that do this. There's private investigators who are male who do go and do this

and they get paid for it. Beth, what do you think about this trend? Is it a journalistic or a moral endeavour or is it for commercial interest? Because it's not just Becky who's doing this, it's not just one podcast, there's a few people at it on social media. No, not at all. It's definitely not just Becky and Laura. This trend is absolutely huge on TikTok. I would say that it's a commercial endeavour in a sense. Of course, Becky and Laura are not charging. Lots of other TikTokers who are doing similar content also don't charge,

but they create content from this. They get, you know, Becky and Laura after their Times article and some of their videos, they said that they've got about 75,000 followers or something like that and an extra 300,000 views on their podcast, obviously that all translates to money. There's also the TikTok creator fund where I think if you get something like a million views, you can start earning money off of your TikTok accounts. So there is always going to be a financial endeavour there involved. And going back to that point about if it was gender swapped I think that's very telling of how toxic this trend could be you say you don't know the backgrounds of these women and that you've made this community of women who just want help and maybe have nowhere else to go I think a lot of

gender-based assumptions are being made there you're assuming that the woman in your inbox is the person who's being hurt but what if she's actually the instigator and the man hasn't done any cheating at all and you're just kind of stalking a man getting off of a train who hasn't done anything wrong um i think that's a really important thing that we have to look at here that if you found out a male partner was doing that to you it would be terrifying in fact even the other way around i know that my you found out a male partner was doing that to you it would be terrifying in fact even the other way around I know that my partner who is a man would be really quite freaked out if he found out I paid or not paid sorry requested that to random strangers neither

of us know go and follow him to a train station or to work or to the gym or wherever he would be really freaked out never speak to me again and possibly be looking to speak to some sort of helpline and I wouldn't blame him yeah it's also the moral moral stance isn't it about cheating that people have taken instantly and Beth you've said it can have an extreme implication for mental for mental health and future relationships of everyone involved tell me a bit about that yeah so when we were producing the Channel 4 documentary and looking at the Refining29 article about people who'd been on the receiving ends of these trends, there were huge amounts of people we spoke to. There were so many that not everybody made it

into the final pieces, but so many of them were struggling to date again after finding out that they had had some kind of loyalty test performed on them whether it was a stakeout or a honey trapping situation or something different um a lot of people once they'd actually gone through it were no longer grateful even though they'd actually requested the service themselves so we spoke to one woman who asked a tick tocker to perform a loyalty test on her partner to see if he would cheat and he passed which just made her feel terrible and the relationship was now in complete disrepair um there's also you know sometimes these these tests don't actually work so someone could request a loyalty test of some kind that's the blanket term I'm using for all these different types of content.

You could say, follow my husband to this particular location, see if he's actually there. He might pass the test, but he could still be cheating on you just in a different location. Becky, I'm just going to come to you for the final question. I mean, you present this as altruistic and for women but some would see it as you making your reputation on other people's misery no not at all i mean this is something that is going on all the time anyway we're not encouraging cheating we're not um we're not doing a loyalty test or anything like that and ultimately what laura and i are doing we're not the ones in the wrong we're not the ones in the wrong. We're not the ones who are, you know, cheating or potentially cheating. We're simply going, we're observing and reporting back

information. And as I said earlier, this is something that people are doing all day, every day, and it's no different what we're doing. Fascinating conversation. Thank you so much, both of you for joining me. Keep your thoughts coming in. Someone's just messaged in to say, can you imagine if this was guys following women, that this would be a different story? I just want to suggest that if you are having to get in touch with someone to spy on your partner, maybe that tells you everything you need to know

about your relationship. I don't know, just putting it out there. Now, the biggest annual sporting event in the US, the Super Bowl spectacle, has got even bigger this year. Fans are eagerly waiting to see if Taylor Swift will make it from Tokyo to Las Vegas in time to support her American footballer boyfriend, Travis Kelsey, this Sunday.

Both Trump and Biden camps are watching closely too as tensions heat up in the upcoming presidential election. Just yesterday, an inquiry by the Department of Justice Special Counsel found that the President Joe Biden willfully retained and disclosed classified files but decided not to charge him. Everything is to play for and every scrap of influence over the upcoming election is of vital importance as right-wing conspiracy theories run wild that the pop megastar might use the Super Bowl to influence the presidential

elections. So what is going on? Well, joining me now from Washington is the BBC's Holly Hundrick. Good morning, and thank you for getting up bright and early to talk to me, Holly. First of all, for those of us who are not familiar with the Super Bowl, tell us why it's such a massive deal in the US. I think football, American football, I should say, is just considered to be this country's sport. It's sort of the biggest night in sports on Sunday. I think last year it was like 150 million people tuned in, which actually made it the biggest TV show in all history. So football fans, non-football fans alike will all be getting together on Sunday. It's really like a national event.

So where does Taylor Swift fit into all of this? Why is she hot footing it all the way from Japan to make sure that she's there for starters? Well, I think most of us know Taylor Swift is arguably the kind of biggest pop star of this moment. And now she's dating one of the biggest football players of this moment, Travis Kelsey. He's a tight end for the Kansas City Chiefs. They're one of the two teams that are playing and they've been pretty public in their romance. We've seen her, I think, I don't know, more than eight games, I think, hopping around small American cities to support him. So speculation is that she will also be attending the Super Bowl, which will draw even more eyes to the sports game, even for those who don't care at all about football.

And explain why the two of them together are getting conspiracy of conspiracy theories flying left, right and center from this pro-Trump camp? I think maybe a good way of putting it is people think it's too good to be true, right? She's had a billion dollar tour, 14th Grammy. He's won two Super Bowls already. He might win his third. These two people kind of at the top of their game. And they're considered to be either Democrats or just kind of progressives. Taylor Swift has endorsed Democratic candidates since 2018. She endorsed Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, the current president and vice president in 2020. Kelsey, to my knowledge, has never endorsed a Democrat, but has been associated with Democratic causes or so-called Democratic causes. He did an ad for a COVID vaccine in this country, very polarizing. He did an ad for Bud

Light, which also entered the culture wars when they use a transgender actress in their ads. And he kneels sometimes during the national anthem, which in this country is using showing support as protesting, sorry, police violence, something popularized by a fellow athlete, Colin Kaepernick. So all this together, I think if you're really squinting, you see two hugely popular people who are more leaning towards the left side of the spectrum, who some think might be trying to influence the election as well. So tell us about the theories and who's touting them. I really fringe people, I would say people who are really in Donald Trump's camp, a couple of

Fox journalists, certainly, but most people are sort of more conservative radio hosts, people you wouldn't really see in the mainstream. And I should say, very, very few people you would know outside of this sort of story are touting these theories. One is that Taylor Swift is a Pentagon, the Defense Department asset, and is somehow trying to sort of promote U.S. propaganda, American values through her appearance at these games. That's, of course, been shot down by the Pentagon. Another is that they are in it for Joe Biden. They're going to orchestrate this Super Bowl. This was all rigged. And then on Sunday, either Taylor or Travis or both of them are going to come out and support President Biden. And I think Biden would love that, there'd be a lot of eyeballs on her and on him. Again, the NFL has said that's just not true.

There's no evidence of this at all. And what have the, yeah, tell us about what the NFL have said and the boss, Roger Goodall. I believe he said it was completely nonsense. I don't know football very well as a sport, to be honest. I don't think anyone thinks they could be rigging it. I think these teams are very good and have been playing, you know, for many months, competing for many months, long before anyone knew Taylor and Travis were dating.

I mean, as you mentioned, she's massive. She's probably the biggest pop star on the planet right now. And, you know, with that comes a bit of influence and a bit of power. But why is the American right so interested in Taylor Swift? I do think, to be fair, it's the American right, but largely those in charge, not in charge of them, who they look up to Donald Trump. I think he's a bit obsessed with her, right? He, when she first endorsed, I believe it was a Democrat, it wasn't even Joe Biden, just someone in her state in Tennessee. He said he liked her music 25% less. There's been reporting that he wanted to be time

person of the year, but she, of course, got that honor. It does seem to be a little bit of a battle over attention. I don't know that it's so much his voters, but him. I think they're just scared of her influence. There's not a lot of evidence that celebrities can actually change the way someone votes, but there is evidence showing that they can get someone to the ballot box. And Taylor Swift's already done this. She posted, I believe it was in 2020, about voter registration, just saying, hey, everyone, here's a link. Make sure you're ready to vote.

And I think it was 35,000 people did so in a single day. In the first day. Yeah. So I think it's that influence freaks people out. And also maybe a man who's always wanted to be a celebrity is envious of a woman who is the biggest celebrity of our time. And what about the Biden camp? How important is she for them? There was a New York Times report, I believe it was last month, saying that she was sort of their number one goal in terms of endorsements. And that's, I think, fueled a lot of this buzz. I think people in Trump's camp also probably saw that. I think she'd be big. Again, I don't think she would sway the election. But

this election is a lot about voter fatigue. It looks like Donald Trump will be the Republican nominee. Joe Biden is already the Democratic nominee. We've seen this game before. Strangely, it's the same two teams in the Super Bowl in 2020 as well. So it's all a bit of Groundhog Day in the US right now. So the time of fatigue, if you have someone as famous as she is and energetic as she is saying, hey, to her millions of fans, just get out there. Or, you know, maybe Biden's wildest dreams. Can you donate $1, $5? That could be a lot of money coming in. And what do we actually know about her political views? And if she's even politically active?

It was a big part of her kind of, I think, story in 2018, 2019. She was very quiet in Trump's second election, his first against Hillary Clinton in 2016. Something that she said, you know, in her documentary that she regrets. So she rectified that in 2018, endorsing a Democrat for Senate in Tennessee. That Democrat didn't win. And then 2020, she did come out and support Kamala and Joe. But again, through Instagram posts, she's never been to a rally.

She's not a celebrity who's going to be, who you think was going to be barnstorming, you know, New Hampshire and Iowa with Mr. Biden. But we do think she leans Democrat. I just don't know if she's going to go as far as he might want her to. Well, we don't even know if she's going to make it to Las Vegas yet. She's performing in Tokyo the night before. So all eyes will be on the Super Bowl for more than one reason. Not just the football, not just for Usher performing at halftime,

another big draw, but will she or won't she make it? Thank you so much, Holly. That was the BBC's Holly Hondrick in Washington talking to me about the influence of Taylor Swift. Now, responding to the earlier discussion about widows, was the actor Maureen Lipman, who sent Woman's Hour this voice note about her experience after the death of her husband,

the playwright Jack Rosenthal, in 2004. I was ashamed of laughing too much or making other people laugh at gatherings and worried that buying a new car with a soft top would make me look like the merry widow. I worried about the kids because people tend to say to them, how is mum without thinking that they too have lost their best friend? The children and I watched two episodes of Curb Your Enthusiasm, which Jack loved, every day and we cried with laughter, a sort of healing laughter I think. And the thing is, to be honest, that even after his funeral, I sort of thought he was coming back. And I realised that that was

nature's way of letting me down slowly. It's 20 years ago in May. And I talk about Jack and think about him every day. And I now believe that he's just part of me. He's gone into my DNA. Life takes strange turns and I think that that love transmogrifies into a wider capacity for love. Maureen Lipman leaving us a voice note. Maureen, thank you so much for that heartfelt voice note and to talk about Jack on air as well. And also very top news,

because I read it just the other day, new final series of Curb Your Enthusiasm is about to begin, if anyone else is a fan. Thank you so much for taking the time to get in touch with us. I'm sorry I didn't get to read all your messages out.

Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour when we'll hear from the new dragon on Dragon's Den, Emma Greed. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Post Office Horizon scandal has shocked Britain. Post Office IT scandal, which has had so much publicity, That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. It was just horrendous. The whole thing was horrendous. I was told you can't afford to take on post office. And about their extraordinary fight for justice. What was motivating you?

Well, it was wrong what they did. Listen to the true story firsthand from the people who lived it in The Great Post Office Trial from BBC Radio 4 with me, Nick Wallace. Subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.