Woman's Hour - Tim Westwood, Same Dress Different Bodies, LeighAnn McCready, Fatma Said

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

The BBC board has apologised over "missed opportunities" to tackle "bullying and misogynistic behaviour" by the former BBC Radio 1 DJ Tim Westwood. Nuala discusses with BBC correspondent ChiChi Izundu. Same Dress Different Bodies began when fashion-loving friends Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynan realised they were both having problems finding clothes they felt comfortable in, Lottie because of bloating caused by IBS, and Laura because she was limited by what was available in plus sizes. They tell Nuala about turning their positive approach to fashion into a live show.The mother of the Royal Artillery Gunner Jaysley Beck, who took her own life, tried to discourage her from joining the army. Assistant Coroner Nicholas Rheinberg ruled Jaysley died by suicide and that the Army’s handling of a sexual assault complaint against Battery Sergeant Major Michael Webber was ‘more than a minimal contributory part in her death'. She was later subjected to relentless harassment by her line manager, Former Bombardier Ryan Mason. He sent her over 4,600 messages confessing his feelings for her and showed her a 15 page love story about her. The Army's failure to take action after she was harassed by him also contributed to her death. Her mother LeighAnn McCready tells us about her daughter and the army's investigation.Fatma Said is a renowned classical singer – she was the first Egyptian soprano to perform on La Scala’s famous stage in Milan. She has also sung alongside Elton John and Ed Sheeran and was the first female artist to perform at the Grand Egyptian Museum in 2023. Fatma sings in several languages, and her albums span an eclectic mix of genres: El Nour celebrated her cultural heritage, and Kaleidoscope, featured everything from opera to Whitney Houston. She joins Nuala to discuss her latest album – Lieder - in which she turns to 19th Century German romantic music.Presented by Nuala McGovern. Produced by Melanie Abbott.

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with iGaming Ontario. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme, Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. This morning we hear from the mother of the Royal Artillery gunner, Jaisley Beck, who died by suicide. An inquest concluded that the Army's

handling of a sexual assault complaint filed by Jaisley Beck played more than a minimal contributory part in her death and that her mum Leanne McCready now wants to support others who speak out. If you have served in the military and you want to share your experience as a woman please do get in touch the number to text is 84844 on WhatsApp or 03700 100 444. Also this hour Fatma Said, the Egyptian operatic soprano will be with us. Fatma has a new album called Leader. It's focusing on German language songs of the Romantic era. She actually

sings in six languages. Here's a little of her singing in Arabic with her performance of Masr Heia Ami. That performance, which is really quite something, I watched it online, has been watched 2.5 million times. We're going to talk about that and lots of other things too. Now I want to know have you ever walked into a room and clocked someone in the same outfit? Were you delighted or disgusted? I want to hear your stories. Maybe you had a laugh or maybe you went to try and change or perhaps you love twinning. Wearing the same outfit as your good pal when you go out. The number to text 84844 on social media we're at BBC womens hour or you can email us through our website

for a whatsapp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444 and I ask that question because fashion influencers Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynen have a live show with the London Palladium coming up based on wearing the same dress on different bodies. So this started online but it has since exploded in popularity and we have Lottie and Laura joining me in the studio in the coming hour so do stay with us for that. But we begin with the BBC board apologising over missed opportunities to tackle bullying and misogynistic behaviour by the former BBC Radio 1 DJ Tim Westwood. An independent report into what the BBC knew about Mr Westwood's conduct highlights a series of incidents and allegations it said amount to a considerable body of evidence which it

failed to investigate properly. The BBC has previously acknowledged six complaints about bullying and sexual misconduct. In a video that appeared on social media last year, the DJ said it's all false allegations. Well Chichi Isundu, BBC correspondent who's been covering this story for a long time joins me now. Welcome to Women's Hour Chichi. For those that aren't familiar with Tim Westwood, how would you describe him? So Tim Westwood was one of the most leading hip-hop DJs in the UK, particularly at a time when hip-hop wasn't considered a genre of music that most radio stations would play.

He started out in the early 80s, then on pirate radio, then got a job at Capitol Radio, still promoting hip-hop music, then he got a job at Radio 1 and flourished. He at one point had millions of listeners across the world listening to his opinion about hip-hop music and some of the biggest names in hip-hop music would only ever speak to him whenever they came to the UK. Such was his power in that genre of music. It's interesting because Tim Westwood, in case people don't know, is a white man and he really, really was revered in the black community for how much he was highlighting positively hip-hop music.

You worked with Tim Westwood. You're in a particular position actually, Cheechee, because you did work with him and you have been the leading voice on this investigation within the BBC. For Tim Westwood, you read the news bulletins on his programme. I just want to play a brief exchange which you're aware of between you to give listeners an idea of this programme. This is BBC Radio One Extra. And that is correct. It's five o'clock time for the BBC Radio One Extra news with Chichi

Azundi. Yes. I mean, Chichi, you suffer from a rather perturbing camel toe most days, even when you're wearing a skirt. What would, are you interested in this lady product, which would help disguise that rather protruding, raging camel toe of yours. I mean, I was gobsmacked listening back to that this morning. I'm wondering how you feel on hearing that. It's weird. I'm in a really weird position because this story genuinely is not about me.

That was during a drive time program which went out, as you heard, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon on one extra which is considered a youth station for younger people. So the Ofcom rules around what you can and cannot say during that time are quite strict. But I was not the only newsreader that he made comment about Bodley Parts. I was not the only newsreader who he had a joke at their expense and it always came either just before or just after the bulletin and sometimes he would interrupt your bulletin and that was really difficult. But that was how he operated. And I should say that clip that I played is from the programme Behind the Stories, Tim

Westwood Behind the Investigation, which course it goes into some of these details that we're getting into now. But the allegations against him, what are they? So the allegations from our investigation in 2002, we heard from 18 black women who alleged sexual misconduct, unwanted touching and predatory behavior from Tim Westwood. He denied those allegations at the time and has done since. And the allegations in the report found that, like you just heard in that clip, he focused on people's bodies, particularly women's breasts, and often mocked people live on air.

There was always a joke at their expense. There was accusations of bullying and there were more serious accusations that the report found if they had been dealt with properly could have been referred to police. There were accusations of making a toxic workplace for staff so that staff were continuously moved around working from him. Some staff did not feel that they could go to BBC management and make a complaint because they revered the talent more than they revered the production staff. Those were the kind of allegations. And'll say again Tim Westwood didn't take part in the report and he cited an ongoing Metropolitan Police investigation but he did say through his lawyers that he denies the

allegations. And just put this in a timeline for people so he has been accused of unwanted sexual behavior and touching an instance between 1992 and 2017. You investigated this in 2022, and you mentioned some of the aspects that are there. How did the BBC respond at that time? So that was an interesting part of the investigation because during my investigation I put in a freedom of information request to the BBC asking about any complaints that Tim Westwood had against him and they responded with we could neither confirm nor deny whether we hold that information. Then in April 2022 when the documentary went out. The BBC then came out with a statement and then I think it

was a week or two later they found six complaints, one of which was referred to police. At the time of the broadcast of the documentaries which is still on the iPlayer, if anyone wants to go and. They are quite a tough watch, so I just would want to warn people. And Tim Westwood and his legal team said that he'd never had any complaints against him. But the BBC said, yeah, he had six complaints against him, some of which he'd been spoken to, one of which had been referred to police. So at the time, the BBC were looking through the records that they

had and this is what they uncovered. So why we are talking about this today is because the BBC Board has apologised over missed opportunities to tackle bullying and misogynistic behaviour by Tim Westwood. Is there any specifics on why they talk about why it flew under the radar for so long? I mean this report, the independent report was launched months after our investigation in 2022. It was hard to get people to come forward and talk to Gemma White Casey who led the report. She didn't manage to speak to 120 people so that's quite a lot and it cost more than three million pounds. There is a lot of criticism in this report for BBC management and how they

handled complaints that were made to them or that came to them via the public. That might be one of the reasons why things flew under the radar. The BBC's, once again, the BBC's way of keeping records has come under scrutiny as it did under the Hugh Edwards investigation last year and the year before. This time again the record-keeping of management and following through on things has been criticized. BBC management don't fare well, the senior levels of BBC management don't fare well coming out of this report. And with the report you mentioned there that it was carried out independently as you talk about. Also can you tell us a little bit more of any of the other findings that we

should be aware of? The other findings that you should be aware of, I'm still ploughing through this report because it's nearly a hundred and seventy pages long and the other findings that the BBC say happened are that the allegations were treated in isolation rather than being brought together. And the body of evidence, the considerable body of evidence that Gemma White Casey discovered, she says had complaints been treated together, the BBC may have seen a pattern of evidence or a pattern of behavior and taken action. She also said that she found that there were complaints and instances where if they had been handled

correctly it would have called into question Tim Westwood's employment at the BBC. And let me read a little off the BBC statement. The BBC Board admitted it did not take adequate action, saying it's clear that in the past the BBC has not only been too siloed but too deferential to high profile individuals. The Board also wants to take this opportunity to apologise on behalf of the entire BBC to anyone impacted by what the review has found. Your voice has been heard, it says,

and the findings of the review will further fuel the drive to ensure it does not happen again. To Tim Westwood, I know you were mentioning some of the aspects there, Chi Chi, but he denies the allegations of criminal and other misconduct and confirms he has never had any sexual interest in children under the age of 16. He never acted in a predatory and or sexual manner

and did not and does not present a risk to young women at the BBC nor elsewhere. He's been denied the opportunity, he says, of presenting a defence to allegations set out in the report as a result of the vague nature of the allegations and the ongoing police investigation, which you also mentioned, Cicci. But how you think, the reason that we're speaking about it this morning, the BBC's apology will go down with Tim Westwood's alleged victims? I had a text this morning from someone who wishes to remain anonymous, and that person asked a really simple question. Does the BBC actually say sorry or is it just in press releases? Thank you for joining us. There's more on this story online and as we mentioned as well, it can be a tough watch but there is the programme behind the stories, Tim Westwood behind the

investigation, Chi Chi who's continuing to plough through that report. Thanks very much for coming in into us. A lot of you are getting in touch with me this morning. I just mentioned dresses. I mentioned same dress, different bodies. At my sister's wedding I was wearing the same dress as my future brother-in-law's niece. That was fine. However, her sister was wearing the same dress as my sister, the bride. We all found it very amusing and had photos together. However, her sister was wearing the same dress as my sister, the bride. We all found it very amusing and had photos together, though she did wear her

cardigan more than perhaps she would have. Hillary, on a cruise some years ago I wore a beautiful pale lime green evening dress. I'd bought it especially for the cruise and I loved it. The first time I wore it I stepped out of my cabin at the same time as the lady in the cabin opposite me and she was wearing exactly the same dress. We both smiled and said, I said, I hope I look as good in mine as you do in yours. Very gracious. 84844 if you want to get in touch, lots of people with the same dress, different bodies. But that is the name of something that began when the fashion loving friends and influencers Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynen realized they were both having problems finding clothes

that they felt comfortable in. For Lottie it was due to bloating caused by IBS. Laura was limited, she thought, by what she found available in plus sizes. So they began to film themselves trying on the same clothes. Lottie a size 12, Laura a size 24 and those posts on Instagram became huge hits and they've now turned the experience into a live show at the London Palladium which is coming up. Welcome to both of you. Thank you for having us. Nice to meet you Laura, Lottie welcome back. So talk us through how did you first meet? That's a funny story which we did check was okay to say on air first. Most things don't. Go ahead.

So I was working on a campaign for, to promote smear tests, going to get gynecological tests and I decided as part of the campaign I was going to create vulva shaped cupcakes and I put on my Instagram stories, I had an epic fail and someone said Laura she was on Bake Off, she lives near you. So I slid into her DMs and messaged her and said could you make me some vulva cupcakes for tomorrow she said no but then our friendship grew from there. Good boundaries Laura and you can't say vulva on woman's hour I don't know where you can say that. So you became buddies but how did this I don't know habit that became an Instagram phenomenon of trying on the same clothes come about, Laura?

It's actually Lottie's idea. I think she messaged me randomly one day and said, I've got this idea and you might think it's rubbish, but I wonder if we tried on different clothes and show what they look like on our different bodies because we're so used to just seeing on websites, on catwalks, in magazines, one body type. And so we really wanted to empower women to show them that actually you can look good whatever your size, whatever your shape, whatever your age. And it kind of started from there really. We did like a little try on of some summer dresses. In your bedroom, wasn't it?

Yeah. Never planned for it to go this far, but. It just kind of took off. But with the dopamine dressing, as I've heard it called as well, which both of you are this morning, Lottie's in a red dress and a leopard print jacket. And we have Laura, she has a giant cherries on her t-shirt that she's wearing this morning as well. So very bright and colourful. But is it certain clothes that work for twinning? Yeah, I think what we've definitely discovered along the way is as women we are so we've told, been told since we were younger that clothes are designed to make ourselves look smaller or we use them to hide behind and

we've had so much fun playing around because we're trying on the same dresses but it'll be one day it'll be Laura's style or mine we've had fun playing with our style and realize that actually style should be an extension of our personalities rather than just a uniform which I think it's been seen for so long. We have the sort of Laura talks about often, sort of as a plus-size woman just hiding behind the black hoodies and black leggings that so many of us relate to. So dopamine dressing has been a really fun thing for us to experiment with. So that's a really fun phrase.

The other one, you know, we often hear about body positivity, but you talk about body neutrality. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize that body positivity was actually a political movement in the 60s and it was about equal rights for fat women, for employment, for medical care and then really it got kind of commercialized and taken over and some would say whitewashed as well in the 90s. And so I think what people have come to think of modern day body positivity is, oh, I must love my roles, I must love my cellulite, I must love my big stomach and my hairy chin and my fupa.

And actually, I think that for us isn't like realistic and a lot of people don't really want to associate with that anymore. I certainly don't look in the mirror every day and love what I see. Whereas body neutrality is much more about function over form. So it's just I have a body and how I look is the least interesting thing about me. Not always easy to do, still have days we both do where we struggle. But actually leaning into body neutrality has really really helped both of us. You mentioned Fupa, that's fat in the upper pelvic. I'm saying pelvic, it's probably not pelvic. Let's go with that. We know the area we're talking about. We all know the area we're talking about. It's not like the regular role, it's the role below. The role below that covers the... yeah. So you're making this into a show at the London Palladium.

I know, crazy. Yeah. What's going on? Yeah, we did a pilot show last summer and it was so much fun and we basically, we realised even now we've put rules together where we're looking at catwalks from London Fashion Week even in 2024 2025 we're still seeing the same just one size body. So we wanted to create something really different and basically bring women together to for the first time hopefully they go into summer feeling like they're good enough as they are they don't need to change

their body they can experiment with style and have fun and just feel really empowered so it's basically a combination of fashion, of female empowerment, we've got panelists, we've got a catwalk of 12 different women who are taking the same dress different bodies, reels to life, all different shapes, sizes, abilities, they're just amazing so everyone can feel represented. It comes at such an interesting time because I feel particularly over the past couple of weeks perhaps it's the amount of it's award season so you have a lot of glamorous celebrities on red carpets but also in the papers people speaking

about that skinny has kind of come back in almost that 90 skinny and we've talked about it here on the program some Some of it, no doubt, because of weight loss drugs. Yeah. And I just wonder in your field, is that something that people are talking about? Or do you ever feel pressure? Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, I do. I can actually I think when they first came out, I was quite into them.

I'll be honest with you. Yeah, sure. But I think it's just it's not black and white. I don't really like the way the media's portraying them as skinny jabs or miracle cures and all of that. And I think what I don't like is, if I'm honest, the people that are taken that don't really need them, it's not for the people that need to lose 10 pounds.

I do know friends that have been on them and have said they've been life-changing. And I think unless you struggled with food addiction all your life and you're constantly surrounded by like, what am I eating, how much, oh my god, I'm not I'm never full And I understand that they can be a real lifeline And what worries me is that we are going back as you say to this kind of 90s heroin chic And we're only seeing that one body type again

And if you're if you don't fit that beauty standard in that mold it can make you feel pretty grubbish about yourself And that's what we don't want and that's why we're doing the live show Yeah, it's interesting because I feel you can get to a point of acceptance perhaps but then if something comes into society that's turning that on its head again it's quite a lot of stuff to think about. We have lots of messages coming in, shall we do a bit of the same dress, different bodies? Prue, back in the 60s I was invited to a wedding and the fashion of the day I bought a pink petal hat. When I arrived at the wedding I found all six bridesmaids had the same hat. You could have just slid right in there Prue. Margaret, I attended a ball 50 years ago when a lady had the same dress. I felt really pleased with my luck. The other lady was about the

same age as I am now, over 80 and and I just thought, good for you, don't think I wore the dress again. I just got on and enjoyed the evening. Got a lot coming in. Here's Hazel. My twin sister was getting married in Barbados so we were having a special night out when we were there. I bought a lovely dress and told her I was going to wear it. I walked towards our meeting place and she came towards me in the same dress, in the same colour. We laughed all night but got some very funny stares, mainly because we were 50 year old identical twins wearing the same dress. Brilliant.

But you know you're doing it on your Instagram. Do you ever both go out dressed alike? Yeah, all the time. This is probably the first time we haven't been. I was kind of hoping. Sorry, next time. It is so lovely though. One thing we always say is a lot of people in us, I guess, just it's ingrained in us, feel like, oh, the smaller person will look better. But it's so great. I've seen actually there's so many styles that Laura looks so much better in. And it's just showing that style has no size. And what do you find, particularly if you're a larger size, perhaps works better than the

smaller size Laura? I think that's the whole thing we're about is that actually you can just wear what you want, whatever brings you joy, whatever makes you comfortable. Like Lottie said earlier, I spent years and years hiding in black leggings and black t-shirts or a black smock top. So I think for me now I just... But what was the catalyst then? What was the change Laura Laura, that made you ditch

the black leggings and the black sweatshirt, which I felt at the end of COVID, like lockdown, will I ever wear black again? But anyway, continue. Well, I was actually gonna have bariatric surgery. Were you? And so for about a year and a half, I didn't buy any clothes. And I decided quite last minute

that I wasn't gonna go down that route. And I'm pleased I didn't't I think it's right for some People wasn't right for me But at that point I've sort of started to think okay. What would my life be like if I wasn't constantly on a diet? I wasn't constantly chasing weight loss and thinking that you know My worth is tied to my weight and I just you know, I just started to experiment a little bit more with fashion And buy clothes that fit me and and not just just things that fit but things that make me feel good. That's a really interesting point though, buying the stuff that fit fits right?

Buying that size that perhaps is a bit bigger instead of trying to squeeze into something that is not actually the right size. Yeah, the when I'm skinny wardrobe is depressing. Yeah, I used to think my life would start when I was smaller. I literally would say, all right, Laura version 2.0, I will be better, happier, have, you know, better relationships, like I'll be a better friend, I'll travel more, I'll do so much more. And I really did put so much worth on that number in my dress or my jeans.

But it's so interesting. So you decided not to have the surgery and that was the turning point for you. But what was the, was there something before kind of deciding not to have that surgery? I wonder how the switch was flicked, if you know what I mean. I think that was a real turning point for me. And actually it was around the same time that I got invited to go on the bake off and it was kind of like a... Oh, wasn't that funny? Yeah. But I'd always loved fashion. I just always felt like fashion didn't love me because I couldn't buy the clothes.

I just really weren't out there. I think that's changed as well. As much as we moan, there's not loads of clothes around in both of our sizes. It is definitely better, isn't it, now? Yeah, it's definitely got a lot better, even since something that I say that I realise, the privilege that I have.

I've always struggled to buy clothes with my bloating and find something comfortable but since working with Laura on this series I realized the fact that I can go into pretty much any store and buy take a piece of clothing off the hanger in my size and it's so difficult to do that when you're over a size 16 which is the UK average women sizing but they just do not cater for it and that's something that has really opened my eyes in a series. It has got better but there's still only we can count on one hand the amount of shops that we can shop in.

That's fine, there's nowhere on the high street I can shop. What do you think that is though because we're talking about high street mainstream obviously would be a cash cow for people if that was available. Yeah, we don't understand it. We do a confidence overhaul and go to different shopping centres across the country and we get so many messages from women saying, I'd love to apply but you won't be able to shop for me. Take our money but shops just aren't listening.

And how do you understand the popularity of your twinning posts when you wear the same dress on different bodies? Do you know what was one of the best moments for me was after our first show, we had messages from women saying we came on our own to the show, we didn't know anybody, but here's a picture of us. And they've gone to wherever it is, M&S across the road, and they've taken photos in the changing rooms in all their different bodies wearing the same clothes. And for me I was like this

is really really cool yeah. I think we get messages all the time saying that it's like our reels have really inspired and empowered women to you know ditch the fashion rules and and they thought like you said earlier like that everything would just look better on you and that it's really changed their confidence and that's our why isn't it that's why we do it it means a lot to us. Yeah. One more comment. Lucy, age 21, I was invited to a friend's wedding.

A skin student, I bought a cheap new dress in a popular high streets shop, a slinky long black number. I was mortified to discover when the ceremony began that the couple had chosen the same dress for the adult bridesmaids. We have a theme here. I had to spend the day explaining that no, I wasn't supposed to be taking photos with the wedding party or sitting at the top table or dancing with the groomsmen.

Lots of the stories coming in. Enjoy the London Palladium on the 23rd of March when Same Dress Different Bodies will be live with Lottie Drynen and Laura Adlington. Thank you both so much for coming in. Thank you so much. Now, if you didn't catch Woman's Hour earlier this week, you will have missed a great interview with the Nigerian-American sci-fi novelist, Nady Okorafor. Her book, Death of the Author, has just been released. And she told me on Monday that she took up writing after she was temporarily paralyzed following surgery. Here's a brief part of that interview.

I played semi-pro tennis from the age of nine. I was also a track star. I did the 400, the mile, the high jump, all of that. And I loved athletics. That was my thing. And it ended when I had to have surgery for my scoliosis, and there were complications. And that complication was that I woke up paralyzed,

paralyzed from the waist down. And essentially ended up- What age were you there in that day? I was 19. It was traumatic. It was sitting in a hospital bed where I discovered storytelling. It was literally that.

I was just going into a dark place and I just started writing this story to myself. And that was when I discovered storytelling and I haven't stopped writing since. So I had to relearn how to walk, all of that. And so when I wrote Death of the Author, and I have this character, Zé Lu, in a lot of ways she is based on me even though she is different. One of the things that I do when I'm writing is I explore, I

go into those dark crevices. I go down those dark roads. In this case, I was thinking about if I had never been able to walk again, what would life have been like? That's how I came to Zalew being paraplegic. It's so interesting because I often think of science fiction or fantasy as writing about what ifs. Yes, very much so. That is often my inspiration to writing science fiction as well, that question of what if. It's a very powerful fertile. Just expansive. Anything can happen. Anything can happen. You can listen to the full interview on BBC Sounds that I had with

Nadia Kordafour by searching for Monday's programme. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme, Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks it will take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, you may, like me, have been drawn to the smiling photos in the newspapers of the young soldier, Jaisley Beck. But behind those pictures is a story of a young woman who joined the army with great pride but suffered sexual assault and harassment and who killed herself in December of 2021. Last week, the assistant coroner, Nicholas Reinberg, ruled at her inquest that the 19-year-old, who was a Royal Artillery gunner, died by suicide. She was found dead in her barracks at Larkhill Camp in Wiltshire in December of 2021, as I mentioned. It was after a Christmas party. Mr. Reinberg said the Army's

handling of a sexual assault complaint played, and I quote, more than a minimal contributory part in her death. Jaisley Beck had filed a sexual assault complaint against Battery Sergeant that was Major Michael Weber, who she said had pinned her down while attempting to kiss her during a training exercise at Thorny Island in Hampshire in July of 2021. It was recorded as inappropriate behaviour, unbecoming of a warrant officer. Also, in the two months before her death she was subjected to relentless harassment by her line manager at the time that was former bombardier Ryan Mason. Now

he sent over 4600 messages confessing his feelings for her he said and showed her a 15 page love story that he had written detailing his fantasies about her. The Army's failure to take action contributed to her death, the coroner ruled, and the Army said more should have been done to protect her. Jaisley had always been desperate to join the Army. Through her mother, Leanne McCready, she has revealed, Leanne, that she tried to discourage Jaisley from joining the Army. But thinking back to those beautiful photographs of her daughter, I asked Leanne what Jaisley was like. She was everything that I could possibly ask for in a daughter. Kind, considerate, polite, such a huge part of his family, always wanting to do best for others, just a ray of sunshine really. Really, such an amazing girl.

What we also see as she has this beaming smile that she is wearing her uniform, which of course is what this story is centering on as well. But what did life in the army mean to her? It meant a lot. She really was a proud soldier. She wanted to achieve goals and which she did. She wore a uniform with pride. She made us proud. Yeah, life in the army for her was great until the events. Which are so heartbreaking. There has been the conclusion of the inquest. How are you doing? How are your family doing? We're still taking time to process everything, but we feel in Jaisley's memory that we've achieved so much and our aim now is to support others and hopefully other people will speak up after hearing our story. And with that sense of achievement that you talk about, does it give you solace?

Would I say it gives us solace? I think to be able to hear the Army say we have failed your daughter after blaming us as a family in their service inquiry, that absolutely gives us solace. Because when we spoke to you last, Leanne, it was in 2023 and you had already been fighting for answers for such a long time. You are her mum. Can you tell us a little bit about how you keep that resilience to keep fighting for her? Because I know had it have been anybody else, Jersey would have been sat exactly where I am now and speaking up for our family.

And that keeps me going. She was strong. She were determined and she was a fighter. So unfortunately, Jersey is not here to tell her story now, but I'm here to tell her story. And you talk about that strength of character that she had, which she must have had because she was so young when she joined the army, right? She was just 16. How did you feel when she came to you and said, listen, mum, I have a career decision? career decision. I obviously tried to discourage her. For her to say on the back of a school careers day, mom, I'm joining the army. I'm like, no. But it's my job as a mom to support them, to guide

them and not take away both of my children's decisions. Yes, it did come as a bit of a shock that she was wanting to join the army, but she blessed her. She did. She did everything she could in order to get him and she succeeded. Was I happy? No. But again, we all supported her as a family. I kept asking her along the way, are you sure you don't want to change your mind? But no, she was strong-minded and she said, no, mum, this is what I'd like to do. So obviously a very happy young woman in this new career. But when did you realise then

that things were not okay with her? It was up until the event that took place in Thornay Island. She instantly called and said exactly what had happened and how she was discouraged to report this. And when I asked, what do you mean you were discouraged? Because it did take a lot for her to report this. And she just said, mum, they kept putting pressure on me by reminding me that this man who she wasn't

familiar with, she was told just to, you know, just to bear in mind he's married and he has got a loving family. And if you do report this, then this could lead to him losing his job and possibly causing his marriage to break down. So that is a lot of pressure to put on her. And she had to give a little more details with what you're discussing, Leanne, that you'd made a sexual assault complaint against a senior sergeant, Battery Sergeant Major Michael Weber, following that incident, which wasn't properly dealt with as you talk about there. Summing up at the inquest, Mr. Rheinberg said on the balance of probabilities,

she was sexually assaulted by Weber and it should have been reported to the police and the failure to do so breached army policy. He is still serving, it's been reported that he intends to leave. She was later then subjected to relentless harassment by her line manager. That was bombardier Ryan Mason over a two month period before her death. And I want to put this in perspective for those listening. He sent her over 4,600 messages and 3,600 messages in the month before she died. He has since left the army at his own request.

Concluding the Salisbury inquest on Thursday, Mr. Rheinberg said there had been a systemic failure by the army to report harassment that she suffered at the hands of her manager before her death. And she didn't make a complaint about his behavior. How do you understand why she did not make a complaint at that point, Leanne? We know that the reason why she didn't do anything when I was sexually assaulted. Why will they do anything with this? I don't want to be known as a female troublemaker in the Army.

We're a troublemaker as well. It's something that comes up a number of times when we. Yes, and she's already been called back when she put the statement in, she'd already been called a liar by her senior. We understand when Bombardier Ryan Mason realised his messages, this is that the thousands of messages were upsetting. He is said to have texted your daughter to inform her he was removing himself from his post. He wrote after what you said I'm only doing this to make sure you can continue as normal and keep on the upwards path that you were on. But so sadly a few days later she was found dead in her room.

After concluding that Jaisley had died by suicide, Nicholas Reinberg, who we mentioned, the assistant coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon, listed factors which contributed to her decision to take her own life. He said the factors which contributed to her death were failure on behalf of the army to take action in relation to the harassment that Jaisley was suffering at the hands of her line manager, failure on behalf of the army to take action in relation to the harassment that Jay-Z was suffering at the hands of her line manager. Failure on behalf of the army to take appropriate action against the officer at whose hands she suffered sexual assault. That is, I'm sure, very difficult to hear, Leanne.

I'm just wondering what goes through your mind as I read it again. Leanne, I'm just wondering what goes through your mind as I read it again. Again, I don't think we've processed even what was said at the inquest. Although we were there every day for two weeks, again, it's hard to process and knowing what we knew as a family and how we were trying to guide her, it's heartbreaking to hear those words that the Army was at fault because that will never bring our daughter back. So as many sorrows they send, our daughter will never ever return. I also have a statement, this is from Brigadier Melissa Emmett, who's the head of Army Personnel Services Group. And she said, on behalf of the Chief of the General Staff, I wish to extend the Army's deepest condolences to Jaisley's family and friends,

and to offer them our sincerest apologies for the failings that the coroner has identified during this inquest. We should have done so much more to support and protect her. The three years since Jaisley's sad death have seen significant changes in the army, including the introduction of clear and unequivocal policies to state that there will be zero tolerance to the unacceptable sexual behaviours. These changes are being embedded throughout our culture, policies and enduring practices across every part of the army. Your other daughter, Emily, has been speaking out. She said on the Today programme that the army is not a safe space for women and would not advise women to join.

Would that be your view? I don't think it is a safe space for women. No, I'm not seeing all men the same. Absolutely not. But it's male dominated in the army and it's power, it's power. Those that Jaisley complained to, it's all males and just unfortunately as you know the outcome shows Jaisley didn't stand a chance. She wanted her advice to be heard and I think one of the soldiers' words was, it got squashed.

You will have probably seen and heard the stories that women have been sharing of being raped, abused or harassed while serving in the military as the inquest was taking place. There were posts uploaded anonymously to social media and they include allegations of women being pinned to the floor by male officers, as well as reports of men trying to force their way into female colleagues' rooms. You mentioned to me earlier that you want to be that voice for others that might be going through what Jaisley went through. So I'm wondering, because the volume of responses is astounding. It really is. And as I've said to people personally and online on social media, I am so proud

of those who have spoke up and I cannot thank people enough for the support they've given in Jaisley's memory and my voice can start a conversation but together we can make change and already I've seen a change and for those that have spoken up honestly be so proud of yourself, be really really proud of yourself because we're sat here, our little family and we do read the posts and I just think wow, well done, well done to everybody that have now spoke up on the back of our story of Jaisley. From day one of the posts that I'd put out on social media, over 700 people spoke up and that is incredible. That is absolutely incredible and to know that they have got the confidence now to do so, again, they should be so proud of themselves because I do not want any other family or soldier to go through

what we're going through. I wouldn't wish this upon anyone. So therefore I will continue to be Jaisley's voice. I do put on social media, I hope that in a positive way for them, they can engage with my words and have the ability to, again, to stand up to these, to the males in the armour. Jaisley's case is one but I want to put this in context for a moment because there has been a string of allegations against the Armed Forces. If we look at 2022 Sophie Brook, a female member of the Armed Forces, blew the whistle on sexual harassment in the submarine service. In May last year here on Woman's Hour we heard from a female officer who said she was raped by a more senior harassment in the submarine service. In May last year, here on Woman's Hour, we heard from a female officer who said

she was raped by a more senior officer in the Royal Navy. She told us while he has been permitted to continue his career, hers had been ruined. There was a damning parliamentary inquiry in 2021 led by the former MP Sarah Atherton in the year that Jaisley died that found that 64% of female veterans and 58% of currently serving women reported experiencing bullying, harassment or discrimination during their careers. The inquiry also heard evidence of sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape experienced by service women. You talk

about some of the change women speaking up but how do you think on the other side the armed forces can protect the women who are in the ranks? I believe an independent body needs to investigate the most severe cases. The army shouldn't mark its own homework because look what's happened. So changes, instant changes need to be made there and I will continue to fight for that. I want to read a little to you Leanne of a statement for the government. This is the Minister for Veterans and People Alistair Collins who said,

Jaisley was a young and promising soldier who should have had the opportunity to thrive in a supportive and safe environment. Her death was and still is a tragedy and we're deeply sorry for the failure to protect her. There's no place for any abuse or unacceptable behaviors within the military. The government has stepped up efforts to bring about crucial reform and provide a place where people are proud to work and have faith in the service justice system. We will honour Jay's legacy by ensuring this is done in the shortest possible time and in the most effective

manner. Your response? It's comforting to know that other people are supporting and speaking up. But then again, it needs to go back to the independent body. The army cannot mark its own homework. That was to be my question, whether you have faith in the service justice system. No. What happens next for you? We will be writing to the police and we're going to try and push for criminal investigation against the army and the two men in question. And it's enormous concern and now we are taking legal action.

I want to go back to Jaisley and the picture that we began with of her, that beaming smile that she had in her military uniform. You mentioned she was so driven and ambitious, but I wonder what she would think of you taking this stand and your family standing alongside you all through these past years. I know that she'd be so proud of what we're doing. She'd be so, so proud. Leanne McCready there speaking to me earlier. If you have had any experiences of life as a woman in the military, do get in touch with us here on Woman's Hour. You can text us 84844 on social media.

It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Also, I want to say if you're being affected by this story details of organisations offering information and support are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Now I want to turn to a renowned classical soprano it is Fatma Said. She was the first Egyptian soprano to perform on Naskalah's famous stage in Milan. She was also a BBC Radio 3 New Generation artist, a gramophone young artist of the year. She made her BBC Proms debut, that was 2019,

and she's performed alongside Elton John and Ed Sheeran. And one more of which I loved watching, she became the first female artist to perform at the Grand Egyptian Museum in 2023. She sings in six languages. She has an eclectic mix of genres. El Noor was one of her albums that celebrated her cultural heritage. Kaleidoscope featured everything from opera to Whitney Houston. But now her latest album is Lieder. She turns to 19th century German romantic music.

Fatima, welcome to Womenshaar. Hi Nuda, thanks so much for having me. So let's talk a bit about your upbringing. You grew up in Egypt, but there wasn't, you say, a tradition of classical Western music. No, I was listening to all possible things in Cairo, but not classical music at home. We listened to a lot of pop music, a lot of traditional Arabic music. So I was very influenced by this music in general and I do believe that it had a big influence on my classical singing as well. So you moved at the tender age of 14, you moved to Berlin to pursue opera. Tell me a little bit about that change in your life and how you convinced your family to go.

That was a very big change in my life because my parents, they did not leave at that age to study abroad. They left when they did their postgraduate studies. So it was a very big step to let their firstborn daughter go like that and live alone, not to study medicine or engineering, but study music and art, something that none of my family has studied before. No member of my family has studied before. So that was also quite an adventure for them as much as it was for me. But I'm very grateful because they wanted me very much to study something that I love, no matter the outcome.

And I'm very grateful for my dad, who actually was my biggest support at that point in time, who saw how much I loved it and wanted to actually take such a big risk and let me go. Where did the love of opera come from, if you weren't really brought up with this in your background? I would say the love of opera came at a later stage. The love of opera came when I started studying music. The love of classical music and Lida particularly, we'll speak about it later, came when I was at, or I felt it when I was at school. I was 14 years old and at or I felt it when I was at school. I was 14 years old and my school put a very strong emphasis on classical music education and I do remember that I was 14 and I was already

singing songs by Schumann and Schubert and Mozart and I loved the poetry. I loved this combination of beautiful poetry coming along with amazing composition by German composers of the 19th century. It moved me a lot. And I think this is when it all started. And I mentioned this is your new album, Leeder. Let's listen to a clip. This is Widmung from Robert Schumann.

Why did you pick this for part of your album? I find the text of this song very moving. It was also the song that Robert Schumann wrote for Clara Schumann for their wedding day. So it's very emotional and it kind of says, you my soul, you my heart,, my soul, you, my heart, you, my joy, and you, my pain. It shows love in all its forms in a way. And I find it very moving, first of all, because of the story behind it, why it was written, but I think also what Schumann has made out of the text of Ruckert, simply brilliant.

Okay. Let's listen to a little. Beautiful. I want to play another clip from this album. This is Mendelssohn instead. And Hexenlied? Yes. And I was looking a little into it. And it talks about, you know, paganism and the rights of spring. I think a lot of us are waiting for spring to explode right now after so many gray days and gray skies. Yes, I think it's a very nice contrast also to Schumann because it shows my singing in a different way on the album. The way Mendelssohn has composed the song, he basically put

almost a word on every note he put there. So it's very spoken. I wanted to speak it in a singing way, not sing it in a speaking way. And I think also the very dramatic piano introduction and this very bold and direct text makes it very dramatic songs and it shows Mendelssohn's ability to capture this very mysterious and exotic world of the supernatural that existed in the 19th century. And that was a very strong theme of the 19th century romantic period. Yeah, witchcraft is in there too. Let's listen to a little.

So different. Also, the energy is there, Fatma, as we listen to you. And I was wondering, because you perform in several languages, six at my last count, does the feeling change depending on the language that you're singing in? I do think so. I think every language puts me in a different mood because the way you pronounce them is very different. And the way you express, I think, love or pain in different languages is also different in

every era, actually. So the way you would talk about love in France in the 19th century is not the same way you talk about love in Germany in the 19th century. And I think that the way I sing is definitely different because the images I have in my head and the way I came to understood the texts and the way I came to understood the way of interpretation of these poets at that time becomes different when I read more about that. So it definitely changes and I think that's the beauty of singing songs from different times. How interesting that image of images in your head as you sing.

Now I mentioned you performed Masar Heya Omi at the top of the program. Egypt is my mother, is that a good translation? Egypt is my mother. So it's a patriotic song. You're performing this at the Grand Egyptian Museum, as we can imagine, just stupendous as you were surrounded by artifacts from Egypt. That video of you has now been watched at least 2.5 million times and you not only sing, you dance with a stick.

Tell me a little bit what it was like. I just want to tell people the crowd was black tie, ladies in fur jackets. What would I say? I suppose those upper echelons of society. But you managed to get them to sing along and clap and get to their feet. I'm quite surprised that this video reached you, actually, and that you saw it and that you saw the dance. And it's nice you mentioned this last thing you said about the audience and and how what they were wearing.

I think it says a lot about the Egyptian audience because as much as it was a classical concert and everyone was coming expecting to listen to classical music and have this kind of approach to a classical concert that people usually have if they go to a Wigmore Hall or wherever. But the moment I held the stick and actually danced because that was a moment where I was saying myself, give me the stick. And that's a traditional Egyptian dance. Exactly. And the music was actually very traditional where the tabla, which is the Egyptian original traditional percussion comes in. That's the moment when I suddenly found the audience extremely engaging and also showing this very traditional side of them, which

was very beautiful. It was suddenly, let's forget about this very classical approach and appearance and let's become Egyptians together. It was beautiful to unite through the dance with this. It's fantastic. People can't stop smiling and laughing. You did a wonderful job. Fatma Said, thank you for joining us on Women's Hour. Her album Leader is out now. I want to take a moment to read messages. Louise, as I was meeting the Queen at St James's Palace, I splashed out on a beautiful suit. The lady standing next to me, Bim Percento, was wearing the exact same suit. We all, including the Queen, laughed and commented we obviously had good taste. But I got another one from Julia. I

was lucky enough to go to the Queen's Garden party when I was queuing for my cucumber sandwiches I glanced down the line and there was five of us in the same outfit. Great taste. So those two ladies they met together. Join Anita tomorrow talking about paddle the sport and speaking to the musician Rory. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I was definitely too young when I was leader of the opposition. Not to do many of the other jobs I did in government. Admissions and insights from the people who shape how we think.

I would say my family gave myself and my two siblings a critical eye. And because it's not just politicians who mould our lives, we also hear from economists, comedians and bestselling authors. It's the fastest way to change things. You do need politics, but if you want to change something overnight, culture is the quickest way to do it. Conversations, not newsy interrogations. That's political thinking with me, Nick Robinson from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on

BBC Sounds. Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is extreme. Peak danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks it will take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore.

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