Woman's Hour - Tina Fey, Ireland's first 'witch', does young farmer culture have a problem with women?

Episode Date: June 5, 2024

Tina Fey, a colossus of the comedy world for more than two decades, is also the creative force behind Mean Girls. The original movie in 2004, starring Lindsay Lohan and Rachel McAdams, spawned a Broadway musical in 2018, and many of the songs were featured in this year’s modern movie remake. Tina is now bringing an updated stage version of Mean Girls The Musical to London, opening at the Savoy Theatre this week. She joins Nuala. The youth organisation Young Farmers has been accused of having a problem with how they treat women in the farming community. Young Farmers has more than 23,000 members aged 10-28 and aims to support young people in agriculture and the countryside as well as offering a range of social events for young people. And its at some of these events where journalist Abi Kay has found that incidents of sexual assault and harassment are ‘commonplace’. Abi joins Nuala to discuss.Alice Kyteler was born in 1263 and achieved enormous commercial success and wealth before becoming the first woman to be tried as a witch in Ireland. She is also the protagonist of the novel Bright I Burn which tells the story of an extraordinary woman who courted controversy and paid the price for her vast wealth and frequent marriages. Nuala is joined by the author Molly Aitken.On Monday, candidate registration for Iran’s upcoming snap elections closed and 80 people have signed up for the chance to become the country’s next President. Four of them are women. In the 45 year history of the Islamic Republic, no woman has been allowed to stand for the top office – even though plenty have tried. So why do women keep putting their name forward? BBC World Service Women's Affairs reporter Feranak Amidi explains.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Maryam Maruf Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, a comic icon coming up. Tina Fey is bringing Mean Girls the musical to London's West End. Well, we speak about the enduring power of that film that was made 20 years ago, among many other issues. But Mean Girls, it was a cultural touchstone for many.

Maybe it was also your coming-of-age film. Do you still quote, On Wednesdays, we were pink, or get in, loser. For my generation, I'm going to say the film was dirty dancing. Yes, I do know every scene. Yes, I know going to say the film was Dirty Dancing. Yes, I do know every scene. Yes, I know each word of the dialogue from I carried a watermelon to nobody puts baby in a corner. But what about you? What was the film that you bonded with your pals over?

I want to know the film. I want to know why that one. And hey, maybe even a quote. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, that is 03700100444.

And for Mean Girls, to a mean and fascinating woman. It's a novel based on Alice Kittler, who is the first recorded woman in Ireland to be condemned for witchcraft. Bright I Burn is the book, which I loved. We'll speak about that. Also, accusations of sexual harassment at some young farmers events and the Iranian women who want to be president. But first, Tina Fey. She has been a colossus in the world of comedy for more than two decades, starting off on the legendary topical sketch show Saturday Night Live or SNL. She was then catapulted to the world's attention for her uncanny Sarah Palin impressions.

Remember those? During the 2008 US presidential race. She went on to write and to star in the hit sitcom 30 Rock. Then she created the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. She's had a career long collaboration with fellow comedian, writer and producer and friend Amy Poehler. They've toured the States together earlier this year with a live comedy show. And Tina is also famous for being the creative force behind Mean Girls. So come with me.

Let me take you on this ride from the original movie in 2004 that was starring Lindsay Lohan and Rachel McAdams to the Broadway musical of Mean Girls. That was 2018. Then this year's modern remake of the movie featuring a new young cast and many of the songs from the musical. Which brings us to why Tina Fey is in London this week. It is for the opening of an updated version of Mean Girls, the musical, staged in London for the very first time. Well, when I spoke to Tina, I asked her why she wanted to tackle that whole subject of school cliques and girls being mean to other girls.

Well, you know, it's more than 20 years ago now, right, that I started with the original film. And at the time, I was inspired by the book that the movie's based on called Queen Bees and Wannabes. And it's about what they call relational aggression among girls, which is this kind of non-physical way of fighting. And at the time, I thought, well, this rings emotionally true to me. And it's also kind of insidiously clever the way the real anecdotes in the book of the things that these 12, 13 year old girls were doing to each other.

It was darkly to me, very comedic. And so I just thought it was a fascinating topic. And since then, I feel like we've only sort of seen this behavior used to be something that really was described as relational aggression among girls. And now I feel like it's spread throughout our society into every age group and everything, because people, this behavior of like, I'm going to pull you down to elevate myself, has only gotten more prevalent. So interesting to think of it in that way. You said it resonated with you. Were you a mean girl or were you picked on by mean girls? I wasn't particularly picked on. I definitely

didn't think I was top of the food chain in any way. But in hindsight, you know, much like the character Janice in the play and in the movie. I thought I was a justice warrior, but I was probably, you know, terrorizing people. You know, everyone, everyone thinks they're the hero in their story. Everyone thinks like, no, the reason I don't like her is because fill in the blank. But you're still kind of expending a lot of energy disliking other people. Why do you think Mean Girls has survived? I mean, it's interesting that you say you feel that sort of behavior, relationship aggression, it's permeated other parts of society. Yes. Well, I think there's something about the story that people recognize it when they see it. And it's because of the movie came out and then it sort of lived on repeat on television in the U.S.

It was on MTV a lot when it first came out and then it moved on to other cable platforms and it would repeat a lot. And it sort of became this this fisherman's net that would catch girls as they turn 12, 11, 12, 13. And I think it's a combination of the performances in the original movie are really good. And those women are all stars. I think there's something about the story that does ring true for girls that age. And I also think it's an age where I know from my own daughters that you're kind of figuring out a sense of comedy. You're getting jokes. When you start in 12, 13, you start to get more jokes than a little kid. And I think they can enjoy that movie.

It's speaking to that age on a level that's new and exciting to them. Like, oh, this movie is written for me. Can you believe, though, that some of the catch lines are still going? I know it coincided in some way with an explosion of social media, which is the perfect vehicle to drive them forward. No, I continue to be amazed and surprised at how it's permeated language in ways that I certainly never would have expected.

My manager of many years in LA feels like once a week, it could be like a Washington Post article about Congress, or it could be a National Park Service post about bears, but there'll just be some weird reference of like, stop trying to make fetch happen or on Wednesday, do blank. And it's absolutely bizarre. Yes. And 3rd of October, let's not go there. But they do continue. And I think even looking through when you go to send a meme, it is things from Mean Girls that often hops up as one of the first items when you search. What about making it into a musical? So it has been on Broadway,

we have the movie musical, but it's coming to the West End. And we talk about these various iterations. What's the latest one? What's changed? The exciting thing about the West End production is that all of us are such hard workers by nature. Myself, my husband, Jeff, who's the composer, Nell Benjamin, our lyricist, who people might know from her work with her husband on Legally Blonde, the musical, which I know ran in the West End for a long time, and Casey Nicholaw, our director, none of us ever stops thinking about, oh, could that be a little tighter? Or should we update this? And having done the Broadway show for two years and the national tour, we made changes before the national tour in the US. And then we kind of learned some things making the musical

movie, Jeff and I, that I think this new version continues to be a living document. It continues to update itself in terms of the way people think, the way Gen Z characters relate to each other differently than what I was really writing about Gen X initially. The kind of way the LGBTQ characters are handled is very different. I mean, it's always been a real allyship show, but the environment is different than it was when I first started writing this project a million years ago. And then also, I think we just know that a few elegant trims are always good for anything. So we've made a few little trims here and there. As I look at you, because I have you on a screen for our radio listeners, I can see that you're thinking about what it is you're going to trim or make it in a more elegant way.

But there's a couple of things there. Why are you such a hard worker? Well, I like to work. I think of myself as a work-based person. That is my love language, as people like to say. I love to meet friends through work, collaborate with people. My husband and I work together and have worked together for 30 years now. My best friend, Amy Poehler, and I have known and worked with each other for 30 years. It's just what I like to do. Because it is quite extraordinary when we look at everything

that you've done. But I want to pick up on something else because you were talking there between Gen Z, Gen X. Is it challenging to know what is funny across generations? It can be. It can be because I do think the way we spoke to each other and the way we teased each other in the 90s and people were expected to take it would put Gen Z in the hospital. Like they are more evolved at the way they treat each other. They don't pick like we would like if when i grew up if you just if you dislike someone for a valid reason the first thing you might do would be to attack their appearance like because and you're like no it's okay for me to make jokes about your appearance because i dislike you for a valid reason right you know like gen z's like no we don't do that anymore we don't

we don't do that no matter what um but i think, you know, it's a good challenge to continue to try to keep these characters not in a period piece and in the present. You talk there about how Gen Z has evolved in a way of the treatment of one another in some respects. But of course, social media has exploded as well. And that does, as we know, transform the rumor mill can be so devastating and can, you know, someone, again, in 1988, you might say something about someone that you heard, thought was true, might not even be true. And a few people would tell each other and that would be it. And in 2024, you could, you know, be a teenager that makes a mistake and someone posts it online and your life is ruined. So the stakes in many ways are higher. In terms of putting that on stage, we know that social media is a part of this universe,

but we also wanted to keep it a show about humans. And it's not a show about social media. Yes, yes. It's just, I suppose, I bring it up because social media can be a mean place. You know, there is here in the UK, I don't know whether you've seen this yet, Tina, that there's a campaign by some parents to ban smartphones for younger children. I'm wondering, any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think the longer you can keep them off, the better.

You know, I think the less time even adults can spend on social media, the better for your mental health. And you're not on Twitter? No. Or X, should I say? Never have been. Why? It just, well, one, it just seemed like a terribly mean place. And also, as a comedy

writer, I was like, why would I, if I had a joke, I wouldn't give it away for free on Twitter. Let me turn briefly to your two daughters who you alluded to there. I did see you say one time that having a teenage daughter is kind of like having an office crush. Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah. You know, it's sort of like having a crush on someone at the office and that you're kind of always just, you know, making your way to their doorway to see what they're up to. And they maybe look up and you say like, oh, you know, a bunch of us are going to go have dinner, but you probably, you're probably busy. Don't worry about it. It's stupid. Nevermind. And you're just so, you know, you're thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about you.

And you're kind of desperate for their attention and approval. And you're never really going to get it. But do you see your experience growing up, say, at the age that your daughters are now, do you see it vastly different or the relationships with their friends? You mentioned Amy Poehler, one of your best friends. Obviously, that was kind of a later relationship. But I'm just curious, you know, whether you feel it's changed massively. Well, I'm happy to say I do think both my daughters have really good solid friends who they see and interact with in person my youngest obviously is not on social media and you know my older daughter just has private social media so in that way it's kind of going well so far but

you know it's funny like the the biggest insult you know talking about the difference in the insults like in my growing up we would have been horrible to someone but now sort of like the biggest insult that a gen z person can say to you is okay you know what touch grass touch grass which means like get off your computer walk away you're being obnoxious go outside touch some grass breathe fresh air so like they i love that i thought it was new to me, Tina. That is not mine. That belongs to me. That is definitely not mine,

but I get the sentiment of it. And, but by the way, like when someone says that to you, they're very angry at you. It's that they're still finding a way to the couch. Like they're basically saying like, you're insane and being annoying to everyone. Go touch grass.

So it's good to have the daughters as well, to have those touchstones about where things are. Let us talk a little bit about you being the first female head writer at Saturday Night Live. What was your writer's room like? I know your book was called Bossy Pants, but what were the rules? Well, you know, it's like herding cats. It really is like, I would try to, you know, say like, well, we should have a topical meeting once a week where we talk about what's in the paper and see, and people would like sometimes show up or they would like walk out in the middle. But, you know, it was, it was okay. It was okay. I think no one,

no one really tells anyone overtly what to do. That show really has this amount of freedom. Yeah. You can you can suggest a change or a cut. And the writer says, like, I don't want to. Then they pretty much get to attempt it at the dress rehearsal the way they want. And then they sink or swim. Was it different than like a 30 Rock? Was it a different atmosphere or a different setup? When we went to 30 Rock, which was after SNL, I went and did the show called 30 Rock.

That was a real exciting change. It was just as much work, if not more actually. But we were all working toward one goal, which was the episode at hand, where at SNL it's inherently built on competition. Everyone's trying to make their own thing. And then you see who wins the contest every week, whose material gets on. So I remember thinking like, wow, this is a lot more pleasant that we're all working toward the same thing. And you have, I mean, as I mentioned, you have this extraordinary career,

being a writer, an actor, comedian, producer, executive producer on Manny. I was also watching Girls 5 ever. Just to tell the listeners, instead of Girls 4 ever, it's 5 ever. It's going to go even longer. And it's about a girl band that get back together in their 40s.

What was it like playing Dolly Parton? Well, it was a real test. It took me back to my improv days when you're doing something and you're like, this is embarrassing and I'm going to continue doing it because it was a sort of a pandemic necessity.

We shot the first season of Girls 5 Ever, which I cannot recommend highly enough for your listeners. It's on Netflix. It sure is. All three seasons. It's on Netflix. It sure is. All three seasons. It's extremely funny with incredible music starring Sara Bareilles and Renee Elise Goldsberry, people might know from Hamilton,

the great comedian Paula Pell, and also great comedic actress Busy Phillips. It's written by a writer that I've worked with for a long time named Meredith Scardino. It's just, it's really, if you like shows that are really, really funny and have lots of jokes, this is your show. And the first season of it was shot at sort of the height of the pandemic pre vaccine. So we were all really messed up and we kept somehow deludedly thinking that there's a scene where the one character is trying to write songs and she's hallucinating that Dolly Parton is talking to her. And for some reason, we thought we were really going to get a hold of actual Dolly Parton in the middle of the pandemic to come play this cameo.

And then as it got closer and closer, it was like, oh, wait a minute, I'm going to have to play Dolly Parton because there was literally no one, no one else. You do a good Dolly Parton. I tried. I tried my best. I'll tell you what, it's a lot, it's a lot of hair and makeup. She really, again, if I didn't already adore Dolly Parton, the amount of effort she puts in for all of us. I know. She always used to say, isn't it,

she didn't care if she was called a dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't dumb and she knew she wasn't a blonde. Let me turn to Amy Poehler, you mentioned as your work wife at times as well. You went on a comedy tour of America, the Restless Leg Tour. Very sad that it didn't come to the UK.

Well, we still aspire to come to the UK. Okay, cool. Well, you'll come back maybe and have a chat with us about that, if indeed you do. But with Mean Girls, thinking of you and Amy as girls, Amy was a cheerleader at school. You were the high school newspaper editor.

If you had gone to the same school, do you think you would have been best friends? Oh, I think we would have been friends, yes, because I think we would have overlapped in like doing plays or something, you know. And I think we would have found each other's sense of humor. So I do think we would, I think we would have been friends that were like, I was not as cool as her. I probably wouldn't have gone to the same parties, but we would have been friends at school

because again, all my relationships exist in the workplace. Yes, I'm getting that sense from you. I even saw when you were touring with Amy and whatever, you'd finished the show and then you said both go back to the workplace. Yes, I'm getting that sense from you. I even saw when you were touring with Amy and whatever, you'd finish the show and then use a boat, go back to the hotel, hop into bed and watch SNL. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, and that's our, you know,

Sunday night football. Saturday night live. See what they're trying, okay. Oh, that was a good one, you know, texting each other during it. Tina Fey there. And Mean Girls, the musical musical is in previews at the Savoy Theatre in London from tonight. Lots of you have been getting in touch about your coming of age film or movie, if we use the American term. Pretty in Pink, Blaine, that's not a name.

That's a major appliance. Lots of you getting in touch about Pretty in Pink. Let me's not a name that's a major appliance lots of you getting in touch about Pretty in Pink let me see here's another one from Becky the film

that my friends and I must have watched over a million times was Pretty in Pink we loved it so much that we wrote to Andrew McCarthy

inviting him to come to our party sadly he never turned up the scene when Andy realises he is contacting her on the library computer still gives me goose pimples. Thanks, Becky, for sharing. Here's another one. My fave film Castaway with Tom Hanks. We use the phrase I have made fire in Tom Hanks's voice.

I'm not going to attempt that. Whenever we light the log burner or a garden fire. Keep them coming, 84844. And I have to say they kind of go across the generations as well. So let me know what your coming of age film is, what is the one you quote, and what is the one that you also bond with your pals over or bonded. Now, I want to turn instead to the Young Farmers community. I want to set the scene first at a recent event that was ran by that organisation, the young farmers community. T-shirts worn by some of the attendees, hot slogans that included,

I can run faster horny than you can scared. Here's another. For the sporting birds, I can tighten the choke. But for some young farmers, that is just the beginning of accusations on how badly they treat women in the farming community. Across England and Wales, the Young Farmers Clubs have more than 23,000 members. They're aged 10 to 28, and they say their aims are to support young people in agriculture and the countryside,

as well as offering a range of social events for young people. But it is at some of these events where journalist Abby Kay has found that incidents of sexual assault and harassment are, and I'm putting this in inverted commas from what she heard from People, commonplace. Abby joins me now. She is the Deputy Editor of Farmers Weekly. Welcome to to women's hour abby thank you very much and can you because there are various um groups within the farmers uh young farmers can you tell us exactly who this group in question are so the young farmers community which ran the event with the t-shirts that you've just mentioned and they operate independently of the National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs. The Young Farmers Community is an organization that's

been set up by a couple of young farmers and they run solely social events. The National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs does a whole range of other things, puts on competitions, different activities as well as social events but what I'm hearing from young farmers is that the kind of behavior that was displayed at the event held by the young farmers community is also displayed at other events run by the national federation so the young farmers community I will read what what they have got in touch with us with in a moment and also the Federation, just to make that underline really that they can be two different parts of young farmers, clubs that people are taking part of

across England and Wales. So what age are you talking about at these events? Well, at these events, it'll be the ones with alcohol involved. So it will be people who are 18 and above and the kind of girls that i've spoken to they've ranged from 18 up until their mid-20s i would say um and it is also referred to some of these events a diy agm can you explain that a little bit further so that's the event that's run by the young

farmers community and it's called a DIY AGM because there was an earlier AGM that used to be run by the National Federation that got cancelled in 2018 off the back of some reports of seriously antisocial behaviour. So this new DIY AGM is an attempt to replicate that and to give farmers an opportunity to go out and let the hair down and have some fun. What I want to do is bring a clip of a person, Rebecca. It's not her real name, I should say. She has been speaking to my colleague, Jeremy Vine, about what she experienced at one of these events. Let's pick up after that.

I wanted to be liked, I think. None of it was really for me and i think a lot of the girls i speak to feel slightly similar that there's not much going on so you have to do what is available um and a lot of it just felt very like forced um people i was good friends with were grabbing me um my partner at the time he'd let his friends like put their hand on my t-shirt and they'd all just laugh and I think because everyone was there was laughing you didn't feel like you could be the one to go yeah no actually I don't like that because then you're stuck in a place where you

don't really know anyone with people who think this is okay so you don't really feel like you can stand up for yourself. So that's a little of a woman who we're calling Rebecca. But can you tell us, Abby, what you have found and what you have heard from people who have attended some of these events? Similar stories, to be honest, that people are putting hands up skirts, that they're pulling down tops, that women are being touched inappropriately. Those kind of things are common actually from the the girls that i've spoken to there were other girls it's worth pointing out that say they haven't experienced this it seems as though there is a big variation in experience depending upon the club that you go to and the location that you're in but since we've published the story

we've had multiple women and girls get in touch to share their own stories of behaviour that is actually much more serious than the kind of behaviour that was detailed in the original article. So everything from non-consensual videoing of sexual acts, which are then subsequently shared with other club members, to spiking, to forced sex acts, all the way up to rape. I've had more than one allegation of rape in my inbox since we've published. So it seems as though there is a serious problem. And although it's not the majority of young farmers, I do want to stress that there is definitely a minority that are behaving in massively inappropriate ways and we need to call it out. So we've mentioned the young farmers community. Let me read what a spokesperson has said to us about the allegations. The young farmers community are saddened to hear that there's been alleged incidences of sexual harassment at our events.

Sexual harassment is completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated. We would urge anyone who has had an experience of sexual harassment at one of our events to contact us. We will take all reports of this nature very seriously and we will do everything we can to safeguard the people who attend have people been reporting do you think this is the big issue so there's a couple of reasons why people don't report they're kind of the girls that i spoke to they split into two groups and there's one group who have been deeply affected by the experiences that they've had at young farmers events but there's another group

who actually see it as quite normal and they would say one girl told me if this kind of thing happens to her in an ordinary club it would make her cry but when it happens at young farmers it's different because there's different rules at these events so it's almost as though it's become a normalized culture that was a comment that i heard from multiple girls that there are different rules at young farmers events then there are the other girls who maybe want to report something particularly for the more serious offenses but there's reasons why they don't and that can include the fact that if you report, when you live in a rural community, everybody knows everybody. So if you report, you risk identifying yourself and then risk potential isolation in the community. If your peers shun you, if you've made a report against a member of your friendship group, for example.

And then you've just got the straight classic, which many people will be familiar with outside of farming, and that's fear of the perpetrator. You know, a couple of the girls that I've spoken to that have been victims of this kind of thing have said they haven't reported it because they were too scared of the person who did it. And is it possible to know whether it is confined to these ad hoc, I'll call them events, that were taking place by the young farmers community? What I'm hearing from people is that this kind of behaviour, the groping, the hands up skirts, hands down tops, I'm hearing that's not exclusive to the DIY AGM,

but that it's also happening at other young farmers events too. I want to read another from a spokesperson. This is the National Federation of the Young Farmers Clubs who are not affiliated with the young farmers community that we've been speaking about their events. Their statement says,

we're deeply saddened about any abuse that has been experienced in young farmers clubs. Any form of abuse is abhorrent and not tolerated by the NFfy fc so that's the federation more than 23 000 young people enjoy taking part in young farmers club activities every week and the safety and safeguarding of our members is paramount we have robust safeguarding policies training and procedures in place which are reviewed regularly by third-party organizations

those who fall short of the required standard will be held to account in line with our policies and disciplinary processes but these are taking place not under the umbrella of the federation would that be correct so there there are certain events as i say that are put on by the young farmers community that are separate from the federation but the federation is responsible for its own events as well and And I am hearing that this behaviour takes place at those events too. You published this yesterday. I see there's more follow-up today. And you talked about women coming forward

and sharing their stories and some with more serious allegations as well. But there has been, I believe, Abi, pushback on you to even reporting this. Yeah, it's fair to say there's been a fair bit of criticism from the industry, which I understand. And, you know, for me, I grew up in a farming family. I've worked in the industry for a decade. I do not like to be critical of the industry, particularly not in the gaze of the general public. But in some cases, I think that it's

better to have a difficult conversation than to avoid it. And this is one of those times. in the gaze of the general public. But in some cases, I think that it's better to have a difficult conversation than to avoid it. And this is one of those times. Thank you so much for coming on. Abby is, Abby Kaye, is the Deputy Editor of Farmers Weekly. She published yesterday,

but there are follow-ups today as well. Thank you so much for joining us. If you want to comment on this, 84844, do get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you. Now on Woman's Hour. Alice Kittler was born in 1263 and she achieved enormous commercial success and wealth before becoming the first woman to be tried as a witch in Ireland. She's also the protagonist of Molly Aitken's novel Bright I Burn, which tells the story

of this extraordinary woman who courted controversy, but it did come back to bite her. Molly, welcome to the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you for having me on. Where did you first learn about Alice Kittler? I'm just going to put my hands up here.

When I picked up the book and started reading it without looking at anything else, I thought it was a novel. I didn't realise that this was based on fact. Well, I heard about her first at school. I think I was about 12 and a teacher mentioned her as being this like real villain kind of figure,

a sort of witch that you get in like a Grimm's fairy tale or even like a Disney representation. And I was quite scared of this portrayal of her. It really terrified me. And I then didn't really think much about her until a lockdown and she just like came back into my psyche. Almost like her voice was haunting me in a sense. And I had this real feeling that Alice wanted her story told from her perspective, because in the historical records that we have of her, everything about her case was written, we think, by the bishop who accused her. And it's a very kind of misogynistic portrayal that he has of her. I loved this book. I loved it. I stayed

in Saturday night reading instead of going out. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. But looking at you, you have red hair. I have red hair. And I don't know whether you've come up against this in Ireland, but when I was growing up, my father said, had he met a red haired woman on his way to the fair, like a cattle mart, he would turn back because it was going to bring bad luck. And in your book and on the cover, Alice has red hair. Do you want to talk about the significance of that? Yes. So like you, I was quite judged for my red hair growing up. And teased like for freckles and you know

boys at school would find anything I think but I could relate to her for that reason I mean we don't know for sure that she was a redhead but we're going with it yeah we're going with it um and there was sort of little hints and tips towards that but actually she would have worn her hair covered that was what people did in medieval times and in medieval Ireland at that point. But I have like a few snippets within Bright Side Burn where she like kind of unleashes and is almost like her true self with her flaming red hair out there. And even with a lover who has a red beard, there's a red cat at one point, a ginger cat that also makes an appearance.

But there was so much about her that I found fascinating. Also, that she had such, I suppose she was so sexually adventurous. Yes. So I don't know about you, but I had like quite a prim idea of medieval women. Yes. And the more I researched, the more kind of interesting things I found out about sexuality at that time. I think people were a lot more open, particularly in the early medieval period. And then later the kind of the church came in and there was more rules in Ireland around sexuality, not being open about it. But actually. They held for quite a long time. Yeah.

I mean, still ongoing a little bit. But yeah, so that I just loved. And I loved that I could write about an Irish woman so long ago, but who was open with her sexuality and enjoyed it and almost flaunted it, I mean, to her detriment. But with being sexually adventurous or open, there is the potential, of course, that she might become pregnant. That's something that could kill you in the Middle Ages. Let's talk a little bit more about who she was and how you researched her.

Yeah. So she was from a Flemish family in Kilkenny and they were merchants. So she was born into some wealth, but she managed to accrue a lot more herself throughout her lifetime. She was married to four different men. Some of them were also moneylenders. And actually what really interested me about her was each of them kind of passed away in suspicious circumstances. And that is one of the reasons she was actually accused of witchcraft, because it was suspected that she killed them. And this kind of fascinated me. And it was very common at that time for husbands to die. There was a lot of widows.

One or two dead husbands in your past was kind of standard but four is quite a lot um and and she gained a lot of wealth through them dying but also just through her own intelligence I think for a woman to make that much money at that point and to have such influential powerful friends in Ireland at that time. I just hadn't heard about anyone from Ireland like that, particularly a woman. I think that's why I thought it was all fiction. And I loved that it was in Kilkenny and I could imagine the walls for anybody

who's ever been to that medieval city and the River Noir and all that. That just totally came to life for me on those pages. And the prose is so beautiful. I'm already seeing the Netflix series, if I'm honest. So am I. I've already dreamcast. Okay, good, good. But she managed to stay a powerful woman as well, until I suppose she hit up against the church. And we're not going to give all the spoilers, but... Yeah, but Richard Le Dredd, who was the bishop at that point,

he came over from England and he was like a newcomer in the town. But he'd just been in France where they were starting to kind of accuse people of being witches. And this was something that clearly he enjoyed and he was looking for a victim, basically. And Alice's stepchildren came to him, accused her of witchcraft because they wanted her money. Well, she was always trying to do them out of money, let's be honest.

Yeah, yeah. It was fair enough in some ways. And he went after her for this. And he was told by a lot of people at that time that this is a bad idea. She's too powerful. But he just had a bean as bonnet about her and went for it. But he came up across a lot of difficulties because it was her. And I actually think that this is the earliest case in Ireland and Britain that we know of.

Recorded, yeah. And I think her case maybe taught people in the church that actually we shouldn't be going for women like this, women who are so powerful. Because whatever Alice is, she's not, victim is not a word you would attach to her. No, no. She's not the traditional woman who is accused of witchcraft. She's not a scapegoat. I mean, often they would be kind of poor widows and had nowhere to turn. But she had many places to turn and many people who stood up for her. The bishop was even imprisoned for 17 days just to kind of delay it. One of her friends imprisoned him. So that's a really unusual thing to happen, I think.

She's an ambiguous character, isn't she? And I'm wondering, how did you create her? What was it like trying to write characters that were alive 750 years ago? I thought about her as if I was living back then. And how would I behave then? I'm raising my eyebrows, but continue. Because I think she's a very kind of ambiguous character, as you say.

And I think a lot of her behaviour is things that we would question today. We wouldn't act the same. But if we were living at that time, Ireland was an incredibly violent place at that time. We don't know how we would react under certain pressures. And she wanted to survive and thrive. I think that's key. And that I just loved about her. I love this really ambitious kind of openly sexual woman. And survival instinct, because anything could kill you. If I talk about that ginger cat that was in her bedroom, if he scratched her, she could get an infection and she could die.

So there's death all around. Yeah, yeah. And people would usually die much younger than her. I mean, she lived into her 60s as far as we... Coming back to the red hair, yeah, at one point he pulls her hair and there's like grey strands within the red, which kind of gives us that passage of time in such an illustrative way as well. What do you think is the significant of

Alice in Ireland? Well, I think like you, so many people haven't heard of her. And there's so many Irish women in history that we know nothing about. It's starting to change a little bit. People are starting to do more research. But really, I think she's such a wonderful example of really what we were doing back then, what women were doing, what we were capable of even then. And I don't think we think about ourselves in that way. All the history books and what we're taught at school is so male focused. So, yeah, I just want to like resuscitate her and other women from Ireland's past

and really like give Irish woman maybe not exactly role models because I don't think she's a very complicated figure. She's the anti-hero, anti-heroine. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

So you will continue with historical fiction, you think? Always, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you will continue with historical fiction, you think? Always, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Anything in your sights? Yes, yes. Although I'm not going to say too much, but a similar kind of thing. Yeah. You're from Scotland originally? Yes. So my dad is Scottish. I was born in Scotland, but my mom is from Dublin and I spent most of my life in Ireland. And in Dublin? No, we lived all over West Cork, Galway. West Cork. Very beautiful and very arty and creative for those that are not

familiar with it. But were you as familiar with Kilkenny? Because Kilkenny is also a character in this story, which is one of the counties, a medieval, very beautiful medieval city where this is set. I wasn't at all. I'd been there a few times as a child and been really captivated by the history of it. I mean, it's one of the few places in Ireland that I think you can really still feel the history. Often our buildings are really modern, but this is a place where you go

and you actually feel immersed in medieval Kilkenny. And the Kittler Inn is there? It's still there. You can go and have a pint. And that was her inn? Yeah. Yeah, it was her inn. That's where she lived.

Made her money. That's where she made her money. I wrote some of it in there. So, yeah. You wrote some of it in the inn? Yes, I wrote some of Brighter Brown in the inn. Yeah, I just sat there. There was like a little band doing a session.

It was magical. Yeah. The book is magical. I loved it. Molly Aitken, her book will be available from Thursday. It's called Bright Eyeburn. And yeah, I feel I'm going to see it on a screen sometime before too long.

Molly, thanks so much for coming in to our studio here on Women's Hour. Thanks for all of you getting in touch about your films. Okay, setting aside what this, we want to know what's your coming of age film? You know, what was the one you bonded over? We're speaking with Tina Fey earlier about Mean Girls, the musical, which is opening in London. Here is one.

Setting aside the Star Wars franchise. So I guess that's their number one. I'm a breakfast club St. Elmo's fire person, and it's often more emotion. OK, not a quote. So Ali Sheedy's character, Alison, shaking her dandruff, yes I remember this, shaking her dandruff into her Captain Crunch sandwich

for instance, that pops into my mind. Here's another one, let's go back. Saturday night fever. I was staying with a friend revising for O-levels. We tried to make our 16-year-old selves look 18. Mercifully, ID wasn't really demanded at that time. I watched those first few minutes of John Travolta and

discovered the meaning of cool. They were happy days, so says Rose. Here's another. Titanic was the film for me. I remember as a teenager sitting with my friends at the cinema, holding hands and crying over Jack going into the ICC and leaving me. Another. Harold and Maude, Cat

Stevens music, uplifting, quirky. My film of the 70s. Keep them coming. 84844. Now, let us turn to elections. You've probably heard that more than half the world is going to the polls this year. Here's another election to get your head around. It is a snap election following the death of President Raisi in a helicopter crash last month. So on Monday, candidate

registration for Iran's elections closed. 80 people signed up for the chance to become the country's next president. Four of them are women. And in the 45-year history of the Islamic Republic, no woman has been allowed to stand for the top office, even though many have tried. So why do women keep putting their names forward if there is no chance of success? At the heart of this debate is an Arabic word that's also used in Farsi. I'm afraid I'm probably going to butcher it. Rajal Siasi. I'm going to ask my colleague, Farineh Kamidi, who is the Women's Affair Reporter for the World Service, to pronounce it properly for me. It's Rajal Siasi, and it pops up in the article 115 of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic. And it states that the president of the Islamic Republic must be elected from one of the men of politics or clergymen.

But since the 90s, it has been debated. So especially a woman who from Arabic, which means men of politics. But it should be interpreted as politicians rather than men of politics. But as you mentioned in your intro as well, in the 45 years of the Islamic Republic, we've never had female presidents. Let's talk about the registration. I mentioned the registration. What is the process? So the process is that you can go and register to become a candidate. And then there is a council, which is called the Council of Experts, which is under the direct supervision and control of the supreme leader, who is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

So they will vet you, whether you can run for, become an official candidate or not. So anyone can go and register, but can you actually become a candidate is after you are vetted. And that vetting system throughout the years is becoming more and more conservative. So the circle of trust is becoming smaller and smaller and smaller. And it's harder and harder to get vetted. So I mentioned four women who have registered. Do we know anything about them? Yes, they are quite, they are known women, because most of them, all of them were MPs from Tehran, Neshabor and Ghazvin, different kind of different cities. All of them, except one, come from very hardline conservative backgrounds.

One, I think Zahra Abadi. She's the only person who ran as an MP for the reformists. And she's the only person who's not wearing the full on hijab, the chador, the veil, and she's wearing a scarf, which is but still very, very conservative. Yeah. And the scarf, of course, for those that have been following what's been happening in Iran has been a real point of contention about whether women wear it or not. And Noala, that is the most fascinating thing. When you look at these women and their slogans, none of them are talking about women's issues or women's rights. Their slogans are very generic, like anti-corruption, national reconciliation. And it's quite telling because in 2022, after the death in custody of Mahsa Amini, who was a 22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman, because of her hijab, we saw the most widespread And the women were on the forefront of those protests.

And it was the first time in the history of Iran and probably in the world where the political protests, the women's demands were on the forefront of those protests. And we see nothing coming out of the mouth of these female candidates about that. But those that were protesting were protesting against the government, right, against the authorities.

And if you have the council of experts that needs to vet the candidates that can actually go forward, surely a more progressive or liberal woman would not make the cut. Exactly. That's the whole point.

And that's why when you look at the wider society, none of them are really taking this election or the candidacy of these women quite seriously because they don't represent a large number of people in the country who don't actually believe in the system anymore and think that the system has lost its legitimacy for people, especially after mass executions and killings on the streets. You know, a lot of people, a lot of women's rights activists are saying these women are not really women's rights activists. They are not there to make women's rights progress, but they just want a piece of this pie. But they are women, which could be considered progress by some if in fact they manage to make it to a further stage. Let's talk about Zohreh Elahian. Also, you mentioned that most of them are hardliners, as is she. She had quite a striking picture of being fully covered,

but with a machine gun that got some pickup. What are her policies? Do you know? She has said that her main policy is anti-corruption, that a government without corruption will make things better. She is a hardliner. So what we see, you know, none of them have come out with very detailed policies. It's quite generic. And Zohreh El-Ahian is not the only one who's talking about corruption. There's another one called Rafat Bayat.

She is also talking about corruption as well. But when you look at her background, she is also very conservative and hardliner. She was part of the students of Imam's line, which actually took over the U.S. embassy after the revolution and took the U.S. hostage. So she comes from that kind of a background, but also, and also she, after she registered, she made a speech and she said that

I have always been loyal to the supreme leader and to the constitution of the Islamic Republic and I will always stay loyal to it. So this is the constitution of the islamic republic and i will always stay loyal to it so this is their kind of view political view but with those two women for example that we've um profiled a little more extensively would it be a potential for them to have a chance of approval for example if they are following or their policies are in line with really what the authorities have been before?

To be honest with you, Nola, no, I don't really think so. The place of women in this system is very clear. It is set, you know, we have women's rights activists, political activists, including the Nobel Peace Laureate Nagas Mohammadi, who is in prison at the moment, calling this state a gender apartheid state. A gender apartheid state that is designed to keep women at the best of the situation, second class citizens. So there is not we only have had one female minister in the whole of 45 years of this state. What about the parliamentary elections, though? Like they took place earlier this year, there was an unprecedented number of women that were allowed to run. I believe

1,713, there was 11 of those voted in. I mean, is that a sign of progress? Not really, because when we are looking at the elections lately, we've had the elections have become less and less popular. So in the previous presidential election, which Raisi became the president, that was the lowest turnout in all of these years. And this parliamentary election, the turnout of Tehran was 7%. Seven. Seven. Seven percent. So this is not progress.

This is actually people saying this is not what we want, pushing back. So when people are not taking part in these elections, it shows that these candidates have nothing to offer. But it does mean then that the same people would remain in power, obviously, if the turnout is not happening. I mean, do presidential candidates try to court the female vote? They do sometimes. We have had, like, for instance, Ahmadinejad was one of the presidents that said, I am going to bring a female minister into my cabinet. So we've had these things and they use women very politically and tactically, not only the presidents, there in the protests and like gatherings that have very loose hijab, wear very, how do you call, bright makeup to show that, OK, we have the support of these kind of women as well. But to be honest, in the past 45 years, not a single law or bill has been passed that has been in favor of supporting women and women's rights. So you are not painting a very hopeful picture. To be honest, as a reporter who's covering women's rights in Iran and who follows the politics of Iran. I don't

really see this as any kind of like silver lining or for women at the moment. I'm just thinking, and just really in our last 30 seconds, sorry to lob this in Farinak, but I'm thinking your grandmother must have seen a completely different time with your great-grandmother. They have. They have. And they saw progress and then the stepping back of it as well and regression. Thank you so much for coming in to chat with us. That's Farinac Amidi, one of our regular guests. She is the Women's Affairs Reporter

for the World Service. I want to go back to some of your comments that have been coming in about the various topics we've spoken about. I want to go back to some of your comments that have been coming in about the various topics we've spoken about. I want to turn first to the young farmer's story. They say, this is familiar and relatable to me as a guest at their

events in the 1980s. The parties were infamous for being raunchy, is the word she uses. I went with male friends and they thought they might pull. I'm slightly surprised that 40 years later it's still there but remembering the type of people who went back then, I'm not shocked and that's Rosie thanks to her.

Another, I was a young farmer from the age of 18 to 26, I'm now 47, pre-Me Too. I never in all that time saw or heard any of this kind of behaviour. Young Farmers is the only self-governed youth organisation. At 24 I could chair a meeting, stand up, give public

speeches to name two life skills that I wouldn't have gained if I hadn't been a young farmer. I also worked in the NHS from the age of 19. Sexual misconduct was and is prevalent. Something else. Witchcraft. Listening to the piece about witchcraft. As a left-handed woman

I am certain I would have been thought of as a witch because it was a mystery to me for many years why broom handles would suddenly fall off, door screws similarly and other things apparently screwed in tight. I eventually realised this was because my sweeping or opening of my left hand introduces a counter move to the left that eventually loosens the handle completely and it suddenly falls off. That's Sheila. I do remember left-handed. Get the hook. They'd whisper it in Ireland. Anyway, lots of stories that have been coming in. The Lost Boys,

there's another one that people were bonding over as teenagers. And her friend Hazel, she used to love watching that with. Thank you so much for all your messages that have come in.

I want to let you know that Anita Ranney will be here tomorrow and joined by the novelist Saima Mir about her new book Vengeance. Thank you so much for listening to Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Do you know

Powys? I did a bit of hiking there a few years ago. A village called Bly. It's not on the tourist trail. The Specialist by Matthew Broughton. A new Limelight series for Radio 4. Help me, Doctor. Why did he choose me for this? Or they'll be deep down in there.

There's so many. They're still coming. We don't have the resources. Good luck! Mr. Dartington's a demon! Are you scared? Little girl. From the award-winning writer of Treks and Broken Colours. They were on to him. Mystery meat.

Deranged blood. Bank transfers. An investigation. This is dark. Hello? Get out! Get out! Okay, okay. Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out! Get out of here!

The Specialist, on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.