Woman's Hour - Tina Turner legend, Let's Eat Grandma, Whips, Sudan's women, Helen Hardy

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Tributes are being paid to the Queen of Rock n Roll, Tina Turner, who has died aged 83 after a long illness. Turner became one of the world's most famous music icons, known for her smash hits What's Love Got to Do With It , We Don't Need Another Hero and The Best. To pay tribute to this music legend, Anita is joined by the music journalist Jacqueline Springer and Dhivya Kate Chetty, the director of When Tina Turner Came to Britain.More than a million people have been displaced over the last five weeks as two men fight for control of Sudan. The United Nation’s Population Fund says there’s been a 900% increase in reports of gender based violence since the start of the conflict and doctors are reporting a rise in the number of women seeking help after being raped. Anita Rani talks to Nima Elbagir, a Sudanese-born journalist and CNN's Chief International Investigative Correspondent and Dr Attia Abdullah who’s a doctor in Khartoum and General Secretary of the Sudan doctors trade union. Helen Hardy grew up in Newcastle loving football, playing it and watching it. At the 2019 Women's World Cup in 2019 she had a lightbulb moment as she looked around the stands and realised all the female fans were wearing men's football shirts, despite clearly being fans of the women's game. She set up Foudy's in 2020, the first retailer dedicated to selling shirts for women's football. The judges for this year's Woman's Hour Power List put her at Number 6 on the list.Cleo Watson served in 10 Downing Street as Theresa May’s political adviser then Boris Johnson’s co-deputy chief of staff. She joins Anita to talk about her novel, Whips, which follows three young politicos trying to make a life for themselves in Westminster. It's got scandal, sisterhood and a lot of sex! But just how much of it is based on Cleo's own time behind the most famous black door in the UK?Let’s Eat Grandma are an electro-pop duo composed of best friends Rosa Walton and Jenny Hollingworth. They used to write together in Rosa’s family home in Norwich and made their first song together aged just 10. Three albums later, including one which was nominated for an Ivor Novello award, they are soon to be performing at Meltdown Festival in London. They join Nuala in the studio to discuss their career, friendship and perform a song from their latest album ‘Two Ribbons’.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Gayl Gordon and Michael Millham

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Due to rights reasons, we've had to remove the performance from this podcast. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We've all heard the terribly sad news that Tina Turner has died. These words are sometimes overused, but for Tina, they are fully appropriate. Icon, legend for Tina, they are fully appropriate. Icon, legend, warrior, goddess. We'll be hearing about her extraordinary life shortly. But this morning,

I would like to hear from you about your Tina moments, whether you were lucky enough to meet her or see her live or you've watched the musical, what she meant to you. Or if like Tina, you've overcome a difficult situation in your life to become the person you've always wanted to be i would like to hear from you this morning get in touch in the usual way text number 84844 you can whatsapp me or voice note me on 03700 100444 you can send me an email through our website or you can contact us via social media it's at bbc woman's hour so i'd love to hear from you about your tina moments christine has already been in touch via email to say i admired her unique great talent tenacity and hard work in overcoming her poor

deprived background to aspire and be simply the best a truly great inspirational woman for women men everyone regardless of colour and background. So your Tina moments, get in touch with me about those. Also on the programme, Cleo Watson, who once worked for Theresa May and Boris Johnson, has written a novel set in Westminster. It's full of sex and she's called it Whips. We'll have a good old natter in a bit. I'll also be introducing you to another powerlister, Helen Hardy,

whose 2019 brainwave changed her life and the football jerseys we wear. Plus, we're treating you all to live music on the programme this morning from electro-pop duo Let's Eat Grandma. And I can assure you, no grandmas will be harmed during the next hour. But first, you may have heard the floods of tributes being paid to the queen of rock and roll, Tina Turner, who's died aged 83 after a long illness. Beyonce has called her the epitome of passion and power, while Gloria Gaynor has described her as an iconic legend who paved the way for so many women in rock music, black and white. Tina became one of the world's most famous music icons, known for her smash hits What's Love Got To Do With It, We Don't Need Another Hero and The Best. To pay tribute to this music legend here on Woman's Hour, I'm joined by the music journalist Jacqueline Springer

and Vivian Kate Chetty, the director of When Tina Turner Came To Britain. Morning to you both. Jackie, how did you feel when you heard the news? Oh I was gutted I do this thing which is very juvenile I shout at the phone or the television when it tells me things I don't want to comprehend so I just shouted and bellowed no and then I just I don't know I just kind of went into it I was just really saddened by it

I never met her What did she mean to you? Well it was a it's one of those surrogate things, isn't it? You know, we are the products of our families and our musical tastes are created by them. So my mother played Tina Turner a lot. And so whether it was voluntary or not, you end up, it seeps into your soul, doesn't it?

But Riverdeep Mountain High, that's a real gospel-esque, rock-esque amalgamation hybrid of power. And, well, it just reminds me of people that I love. It reminds me of a very innocent time. And yet the story of how we end up moving from Riverdeep Mountain High to Let's Stay Together's anything but anything. And it's, you know, so it's a number of things, you know, you connect to her via either your own circumstances or circumstances of love. And so it was a real moment. It was an evening of just like, oh, Tina Turner's down.

I know. It's one of those that cuts quite deep. So let's talk about her. Let's talk about how her music career began because she started singing from a very young age, didn't she? Yeah, I think the thing is when we talk about, you know, when does somebody begin singing?

We all sing, you know, we sing nursery rhymes but that kind of, the social kind of unveiling of it takes place at church and this child had a voice that was beyond her years but even as an adult that voice is beyond the comprehension of, you know, tidy singing. It's raw, it's discordant, but does this, and it's innate.

And, you know, when we think about power, we think about Dave Shirley Bass, we think about Aretha, and we think about Tina Turner. We're talking about women who can stand on a stage and project this vessel, and it touches us. It's beautiful.

Divya, I'm going to come to you because you made your documentary, which is on iPlayer now, and it's all about her relationship with the UK. But before we talk about that, let's talk about where she... Because she moved on to become the leading lady of the Ike and Tina Turner Review. Can you tell us a bit about that part of her career? Well, she had waited, you know, I think waiting to get her chance, you know, visiting every week as Ike played and his Kings of Rhythm played at the clubs in East St. Louis. And along with her sister, you know, I think she always describes that she was a skinny little

thing and, you know, not voluptuous and not really striking visually at that stage, she was just a skinny teenager. So she was kind of ignored by Ike until, you know, one day he let her sing and was absolutely wowed and gobsmacked, I think. And from then on, he really put her at the centre of his show. He kind of rebranded Anna May Bullock as she was born and made her into Tina Turner. He kind of, I think, tried to maul her, really. And thankfully, you know, she escaped what we now know

as a very difficult situation. And your documentary is all about her relationship with the UK because she was coming here from the 60s, wasn't she? Yes, that's right So when River Deep, Mountain High the hugely produced by Phil Spector when that single was released people expected that it would do so well in the US

and they'd get their first number one. And what happened was that it kind of flopped on account of the racism in America that found it. It sort of slipped between what was deemed black music. It was neither black music nor white music. But in the UK, it really became, I think it was a reach number three, top ten hit at any rate. And on the back of that, the Rolling Stones had said, please, Ike and Tina Turner, please come and support us on our 66 tour. And I think that essentially spurred her love for the UK and you know they arrived in London in 1966

swinging the swinging sixties and following that the kind of big tour with the Stones they did smaller tours around in the smaller venues around the UK, in Boston and Lincolnshire. Amazing. In Norwich, I think they really got around. What did you love about it so much? I think the response from the fans, you know. I think that was a great part of it. You know, I think by the account of the people that we spoke to were just absolutely,

I mean, as you can imagine, whirlwind, this tour de force, both vocally and in her movement, her choreography, just everything is really the wow factor. And I'm not sure that they they because of the racism in the uk and sorry in the us um i am not sure that that i think that the that tina wasn't expecting quite the warm reception from a white audience a mainly white audience in the uk that she got jackie we should talk about how she eventually broke free

from her marriage to Ike Turner to become a solo star because he actually trademarked her name, hadn't he? Well, I mean, this is what it is, you know. What Divya's production did and I was so flattered to be included in it is that it really humanised

and it humanized, but it also talked about the global effect that one person and other people's talents can actually have and can reverberate. And all she said, obviously an ongoing thread in the Tina Turner musical, she said, all I wanted was rights to my music.

And because you are nothing without that, or as a brand, as a commodity she still has the voice she still had the energy, she still had the foresight, she still had the ability to know how to pick a word over a stature and across the earth but

who are you? you can't rename, the billboards won't know you, we need to sell you on ubiquity already established. And so that speaks to the malice that imbued somebody who's also physically. Yeah, Jackie, your line is really cutting in and out. Sadly, I'm trying to cling on to your every word, but it's just not that clear. But yes, the identity, Divya, that she held on to um I think when

I watched the Netflix documentary actually and the thing that really stayed with me is when he basically took everything even though they'd worked together and made all this money together in the divorce she said the only thing I want to keep is my name and she was in her mid-40s then when when she went on to have the solo success yeah that's right i mean he he had commodified her and marketed her and um abused as we as we know like the trauma that she suffered but the i mean she her in in in in escaping that and taking the name, you know, it shows how shrewd and clever she was and determined. She knew that she could make something again, you know, with all her talents.

But, yeah, I mean, she came away with, she fled Ike with the clothes on her back and that was all she had. She didn't have a penny um and yes at 42 and you know which which these days seem quite quite young yeah but you know it is it does seem it is 40s too it is very young but in the music industry to start to launch a career it's still not young that is still you know absolutely absolutely and it was i mean she was facing three you know all the isms threefold you know the sexism the racism the the misogyny the ageism um you know she she was literally told that she was you know too old and a has-been and who's going to be

interested in this you know black middle-aged woman. And to overcome all of that, you know, is, it is real testament to her. A feminist icon, would you say, Divya? Yeah, absolutely a feminist icon. I think, you know, she, she, she worked, she, and she didn't have pride. She got to work. You know, she had to do the clubs in Las Vegas.

You know, she went back to cabaret and performing. There was no snobbery about that. She was entertaining people. It wasn't, you know, what she wanted to do necessarily. She always, even from the late 60s, wanted to sing rock and roll. She was hugely influenced by the Stones and had, I think, really beseeched Ike to let them do covers of the Beatles and the Stones in the late 60s.

So there was no snobbery about going and doing the tours in las vegas she was a grafter proper grafter absolutely and uh your documentary as i said um when tina turner came to britain is on iplayer for people to watch now thank you so much for speaking to me to both jacqueline springer and divya kate chetty and your stories your tina stories are coming in we want to hear about your Tina moments um as a young teenager my best friend bought me a ticket to her wonderful private dancer concert for my birthday her energy and passion were overwhelming and electric she performed for hours just unforgettable incredible and inspiring in every imaginable way an icon

and I'm blessed to be her namesake yes you are you are Tina. 84844 is the number to text. Keep sending in your Tina moments. Now you've no doubt seen the news reports about the situation in Sudan where more than a million people have been displaced as two factions fight for control of the country. The United Nations says there's been a 900% increase in reports of gender-based violence since the start of the conflict last month, and that includes rape. Well, I'm joined now on the line by Nima El-Bagir, a Sudanese-born journalist and CNN's chief international investigative correspondent. She's currently in Egypt, and also by Dr. Atia Abdullah, who's a doctor in Khartoum and is general secretary of the Sudan Doctors' Trade

Union. Welcome to you both. Nima, I'm going to come to you first. If you could explain for our listeners briefly the background of this conflict. It's essentially an existential fight between Commander Mohammed Hamdan Deghlu, who heads what used to be an auxiliary force of the army, but has essentially grown into its own kind of, essentially a standalone army. And General Abd al-Fattah al-Burhan, who is the head both of what was supposed to be the transitional council as the country was moving to democracy, and Commander Hamedi.

And it became very clear that, as you would expect, no country would stand two competing armies. So this has been a long time coming. And, you know, the expectation was that it would always be disastrous. But I think I'd love to hear what Dr. Atiyah is seeing on the ground, because I think all of us have been surprised by the savagery, even those of us who are expecting the worst. Yeah. And before we go to Dr. Atiyah, reports are emerging of incidences of rape,

but they're proving difficult to collate and verify because of the fighting. But how widespread is the issue? Do you know, Nima? From what we're hearing and we're working on verification, it is across the country. So Khartoum, Umdurman, which is unprecedented, because I think people hear a lot about the history of Sudan, and they presume that that means that this means that the capital has always been roiled by conflict, but it really hasn't. And so for a lot of people, the idea that people are being dragged from their homes while these forces are looting and armed actors are opportunistically taking advantage of the lack of security,

in addition to those who are seeking to intimidate the general populace. We know that wars always end up being fought on the battlegrounds of women's bodies. We know that. We've seen it in almost every conflict that we've covered. But in this instance, there is such a horrific history here of the genocide in Darfur and what happened to women there. And so it's very difficult when you know that Commander Degelu's forces were involved in that conflict,

not to be concerned that this is being visited once again intentionally as a weapon of war on women. Dr. Atiyah, you are in Khartoum, you're working on the ground. What are you seeing? Hi, everyone. Good morning. In fact, yes, unfortunately, this is just like more violence.

Yes, we reported many rape cases, which is also from separate reports and even from the survivors and the witness and for sure from the hospitals we just we would like to emphasize what is mentioned by my colleague and paper which is the system this is a systematic use of rape as a weapon by both parties because it was being used before in Darfur. Now we report from all over the country, we can just confirm that. Actually not all cases reach the hospital because access to care became a real problem

from all, it's not only rape cases, but also for those that are suffering a lot from, for example, from injuries or current disease or even gunshots. So access to care or hospital doses became another issue because hospital itself, it was bumped and also it was evacuated for insecurity. So other issue which is the availability of the both exposure prophylaxis which is called BEB. It is not available and some of them it is expired. So unfortunately

some of those rape cases, they develop pregnancy. And now it is like traumatized and receive treatment. Other issue, which is a stigma. Yes, please. No, I was just saying, I've seen because I've seen social media posts with doctors telling women what they need to do if they have been raped and that they can use this emergency contraception up to five days after being attacked, but you're saying that it's not available? Yeah, it's not available. Now we talk to an agency, especially in AFBA,

to provide us kids because it's very important. It's not only the contraceptive. We need hepatitis B, hepatitis C. And also some of them, they need surgical interventions because some of them, they have vaginal tears. So this is like a comprehensive interventions need a specialized center. And also this need like confidentiality. As I mentioned, the stigma is a main...

The stigma, sorry, yes, please continue. Yeah, stigma is a main other issue because now we can see, we can say this is like I spared. We expected more cases, but due to stigma, due to lack of access due to lack of corridors our reports talking there is no available drugs all these factors like jeopardize reporting all cases in the country over you mentioned the kits that are available to women um you know with contraception and injections against hepatitis and HIV tests, etc. How easy is it to get those to where they're needed? Now we are trying to collect all these kids together to be available in some centres,

not only contraceptive, not only HIV testing and others. So we would like to also to provide psychological support because this is another issue for the victim and her family. This is the issue. Also, in fact, we receive rumors which is rape against men. So also this need also to be considered as well. So I mean mean availability of the drugs, access to the health facilities. Now this is our role. We are trying to establish a hotline to receive all these

questions and to advise the patient and their caretaker for the functional hospital. What are women being told, Atia? How are they being told to protect themselves, look after themselves? What's the advice they're being given?

Just give us a sense of what you're saying to women who you're meeting. In fact, I mean, the situation is very difficult. We cannot even, because some of the soldiers came inside the house, so she's not moving in the market or in exposed area so she those soldiers they came to her inside her home and unfortunately sometimes in front of her family so this is another uh trauma so this kind of of uh uh like as I mentioned this is used as a weapon so this is like very very alarming for this for me this is civilian war so maybe this will be ended by a lot of crisis. Nima there's a

ceasefire in place it started on Monday night is it holding? No absolutely not and I think that's what's really terrifying to people because this was a ceasefire that was pushed very, very hard by the United States and Saudi Arabia. And it really allows, I think, the international community to hopefully begin to come to terms with the fact that they do not have leverage, that the stakes are so high for the two sides here. I want to just pick up on something Dr. Adia said, and you mentioned yourself, that you're seeing these call-outs on social media. That is extraordinary in a country like Sudan. It speaks to the ways in which the Sudanese are having to save themselves. There is no UN infrastructure. My parents crossed over a couple of days ago through the border to Cairo. They got stuck at that border. They're in their 70s. They got stuck at that border for 36 hours because the border is not open in the way

that international humanitarian law demands. People like Dr. Atiyah and his doctors are risking their lives to go out into areas where there is no respect for any kind of Sudanese Red Crescent or any kind of ambulances. You know, the idea that the Sudanese are having to do call-outs on social media. When we were trying to get our parents out of Khartoum, my sister had to do a call-out on social media. I think people really don't fully appreciate how little the world has stepped up. And I just think what Dr. Atiyah and his doctors are doing is absolutely extraordinary in that kind of a situation. Indeed.

And Dr. Atiyah, how important is a ceasefire for you as a medic? It's very important, but it's not in place at all. So it's not implemented. That's why from the beginning we called for the grantees in the ground. So unfortunately, this is not even the first one, by the way, the first is fair agreement to assign by both parts. It was facilitated by UN. And the last one is the last two one by Saudi Arabia and USA. But unfortunately, all of them, they failed to implement this in the ground. So now we are not able to move. We don't have safe corridors, as mentioned by my colleague. Now we lost 14 medical professionals. And now also some doctors, they received death threats.

So now we are thinking about sustainability of the service delivery in future. This will become impossible. We are talking to our colleagues in the UN agencies and NGOs. So they are trying their best to provide consumables and supplies. But the question, who will serve or deliver these services? The doctor, now they move out because it has become unsafe and they are targeted. Well, we'd like to thank you both for speaking to me this morning and I'm sure we will speak to you again to keep up to date

with how things are working out and how things are on the ground for you. I would thank you so much, Dr Ati Abdullah, for speaking to me this morning from Khartoum and Nima Al-Bagir. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you're hearing on the programme today. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, if you're into football, you'll know there is a very big weekend coming up. It's the final matches of the Women's Super League, or WSL,

and Chelsea look set to take the title for the fourth consecutive year, but you never know, anything can happen. Well, someone who'll be watching very closely is my next guest, Helen Hardy. Helen grew up in Newcastle, loving football, playing it, watching it. And it was at the Women's World Cup in 2019 where she had a light bulb moment,

which she'll be telling us about in a minute. The judges for this year's Woman's Hour Power List, which focused on finding the 30 most impressive women in sport, were so blown away by Helen's work that they put her in at number six. And I'm delighted to say she's sitting in front of me shaking her head. Has it still not dropped? The penny not dropped yet? It's not sunk in? Yeah, I can't believe I'm even sat here. I listened to the show religiously and I'm now sat in the studio with you. I can't believe it. It's unbelievable.

Well, it is wonderful to have you here. Tell us about the lightbulb moment. What was it, Helen? So I've been following women's football for a number of years. And in 2019, the women's teams finally were given their own kits so kits that was bespoke to them and i was so excited to go out to the world cup and see all of the fans wearing these replica kits and there weren't usa fans england fans germany fans all the fans who'd traveled all that way were all wearing men's replica kits, Beckham shirts and the like.

And I thought, I wonder why that is. I wonder why they've all come to the World Cup and they're not wearing Women's World Cup jerseys. And essentially it was because of accessibility, because the sports retailers and the websites dedicated to selling replica football jerseys were focused, hyper-focused on men's football, on men's sports in general. And my initial thing wasn't to launch my own business or end up on Women's Hour. My initial idea was to just reach out to the federations, reach out to the brands and say why. And when I didn't get a response, I thought, you know what, I'll just do it myself.

Do it yourself. I thought, you know what, I'll just do it myself. Do it yourself. Boy, I love that attitude. So basically you saw the gap in the market, which was the merch. But there's one thing to notice a problem. It's a whole nother to put it into action and to set up a business. How did that work?

It didn't really at first. It was never my intention to have a business or make a business out of it. My intention was to sort of as a hobby, really, to create accessibility routes for fans of both the domestic WSL League and international fans and just do it really for the fun of it, to kind of give something back to the sport that I loved. But within about two months of doing it, you know, putting messages out my Twitter saying, oh, I can print the shirts for you. And I've managed to get a license to print the shirts um i very quickly realized that this was going to be a full-time job uh two two years down the line now we've we've got a team of i think there's eight of us now got a new person just joined us this week um i've post investment

i've got contracts all the major brands and was that difficult to get investment were people on board to support um a business focused on women's football well you know pre-euros it was a little bit more difficult to screen the message but i saw the commercial viability of the women's game in 2015 2019 people say oh you really jumped on the roller coaster at the right time but i was seeing the stands full i think there was this rhetoric around women's sport isn't popular but it was it was popular before you know we sold out Wembley it was it was popular in 2015 in Canada and uh yeah essentially it was difficult to get support but it wasn't difficult to spread the data or to express how women's football had grown, I think the data points spoke for themselves. And so my investment firm, Fearless Adventures, they came in before the Euros and then the Euros happened

and they were just really delighted that they got on board. Perfect, perfect timing. Where does the name Foudy's come from? So when I first launched the business naively from my bedroom, I wanted to name it after someone I really admired. And so I named it after Judy Fowdy, who is a US Women's National Team player. She was really part of the change of the game

in the USA in 1999 when they won the World Cup in Florida. They really had their Wembley moment in 1999. They sold out their stadium, 90,000 people there in 1999. And I really admired Judy Fowdy. And so I named my business after her which was naive because you know that's a lawsuit waiting to happen but then um now she's an ambassador she's a shareholder in the business and and um and she's now a good friend which is a bit crazy I know that's wonderful and um let's talk about your own love of football I mentioned at the beginning that

you grew up loving it yeah family family of? Yeah, I think there's been a bit of a switch in my family. We're obviously men's football fans. I think that they love women's football as well. But then now the love of the women's game for my family has really grown. My mum, my dad, my two sisters, we're all going out to the World Cup in Australia. It's become a bit of a family thing. So yeah, we're all absolutely in love with the

women's game and Newcastle United as well, which is our hometown club. So it's just within us. It's part of our family dynamic. Our family WhatsApp group is called In Eddie How We Trust, which is the Newcastle manager. That's how much we love it. Now, I mean, you've got

a lot of support from your family and you couldn't actually be in the room when we announced the power list because I hear on the grapevine that you were in LA making some hot shot deals. Because, of course, because you are a massive hot shot now. But your mum, dad and your sister were in the room. What did they make of it? Oh, I mean, they were totally overwhelmed. My dad, I love him to bits, but got a call about four o'clock in the morning,

which that's what time it was for me. And he said, do you know, pet? I was on the back row and I thought when it got to 20, I thought, well, it was nice. She was considered for the list. So I put my phone away. I was like, what? He said at 15, I thought definitely she's not in the list. Well, you know, it was nice that she was considered.

And it was number six. He said he was scrambling around to get his phone out so he could get a photo but he missed it so he just couldn't actually believe it he was even he didn't think

that I'd be in the top ten it's nice to know they had that much faith in you oh we got to 20 she's never going to be in the top 20 number six when he saw Alex Scott

and the like in the list he was thinking oh my goodness this is what a power list I mean to be in a list with Leah Williamson who is someone I, this is, what a power list. I mean, to be in a list

with Leah Williamson, who is someone I really look up to and she's number one, of course, and to be, you know, alongside a lot of

Wubun Moi who really changed the game for young girls in schools in terms of accessing football. What an honour,

what an incredible honour. I'm just so grateful. What you've done is huge as well. You know, saw an opportunity and also just you, the tenacity and the nails to just go, right, I'm going to do it.

No one else is doing it. I'm going to do it. Has it changed anything in your life being number six on this list? I think it's changed a lot for me personally in, I guess, how I view myself. I think as women, often there's this moment or this thought in our head all the time that, you know, we're not good enough. We're not capable. I'm always in rooms with men in power. I'm the only sort of CEO founder of a sports retail company in Europe that's a woman.

So I'm sort of surrounded by people in this industry. And then you get put on the BBC Women's Power List at number six. You kind of go, do you know what? I'm pretty kick-ass. Yes, you are. Helen, stay right there, because we've got some live music coming up, and I think you're going to enjoy it.

So I'm going to keep you in the studio. Talking about a woman who was surrounded by men in power, I'm going to bring my next guest in. Now, think Fifty Shades of Grey meets Prime Minister's Questions. This is a new book by the woman who was at the centre of Downing Street operations during some of the most turbulent years in recent political history.

Cleo Watson served in 10 Downing Street as Theresa May's political advisor, then Boris Johnson's co-deputy chief of staff. You'll no doubt have heard Mr Johnson's name

back in the news in recent days relating to further potential rule breaches during the COVID pandemic. We will inevitably discuss this with Cleo in a moment. But she is here in the Woman's Hour studio to talk about her new book, Whips,

which follows three young politicos trying to make a life for themselves in Westminster. It's got scandal, sisterhood, a lot of sex, but just how much of it is based on Cleo's own time behind the most famous black door in Britain? Cleo Watson, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thanks for having me. It's lovely to have you here. Why did you want to write this book? Well, I don't know I could start up the kind of company that Helen's done. She's got there first. I didn't have those skills.

But I absolutely love reading the kind of Jilly Cooper, Danielle Steele kind of holiday reads there, what I call comfort food for the brain. And so I've always wanted to write something like that. And then I thought, what's a world that I know about that I contextualize it in? And that is Westminster. And I think that a lot of the writing that is about British politics is kind of rightly very good, but quite heavy nonfiction, largely written by men, largely written by people who maybe don't get to be in the room themselves. And so I wanted to write something that was fun and light and enjoyable, but feels like a genuine insider's account. And it is all those things. The book follows a special advisor, journalist and an MP's researcher.

All junior women in Westminster all have had very different journeys to get there. Why did you want to tell their stories? I think really it's because I can't think of many parliamentarians or researchers or journalists with exactly the same story in, but I think there's an assumption that people have a pretty similar route that all parliamentarians have gone to university that they will have a certain amount of money and actually if you kind of look across the house it's a it's a pretty broad spectrum of people with different backgrounds but they're the three girls really are kind of vehicle for me to show the kind of quite debauched world, shall we say, of scandal and intrigue and sex and so on.

But it was very important to have kind of three central characters who are really good people and good protagonists to show also that as much as the kind of dodgepots are fun to write about, there are actually really good, hardworking MPs around. And they don't necessarily get so much airtime. And there is a lot of sex in this. And I'm just going to say, the idea of Westminster and sex just gives me the ick. But you went there. Well, that's the point, I think. I mean, I think there's a really important difference between writing about sex and writing about intimacy. And I very deliberately kind of didn't try and write about the kind of very kind of loving sex that you'd imagine. This is bum cheeks squashed against glass at checkers. Yeah, exactly. I want I just want I want the reader to feel in on the joke, basically. And you're right, because it's about parliamentarians.

It's, you know, it's the Matt Hancock ass grab. It's not the, it's not the sexiness that we might imagine when we normally read these kinds of books. And I just really wanted to, I wanted to write about it in a slightly different way slightly slapstick way i guess the first mp we meet in the book is self-centered power hungry cheats on his wife is not committed to the issues who's he based on he's he's i would say a bizarre caricature of potential people um but but to be honest it's quite important that um well i don't want to give too much away about the book but it's as much as it is about these kinds of feckless men with their big egos and their terrible mistakes that they make. It's actually really a story about women coming out on top.

And they do. I think that's quite an important element. And perhaps how at the moment, you know, this is a work of fiction. How much of it is true? None of it is deliberately true. And in fact, I had to take some stuff out because it ended up happening in real life. I had to do a kind of cleanse where I'd had,

you know, bearing in mind, I was trying to think about the most extraordinary stuff that could possibly happen. It then did. So I had, you know, an MP who watched porn in the Commons. I had a situation where the Prime Minister becomes unwell, the Deputy Prime Minister takes over and kind of runs the country off a cliff in about a month. So there were bits and bobs like that. But I really haven't set out to draw particular people or particular kind of situations that I was party to.

That being said, it is about kind of the opportunity of what could happen in Westminster and within the kind of galaxy of things that have happened during the whole time that building's been standing. Some of it will feel quite familiar, I think. We've got to talk about your time in Westminster because you were working for Boris Johnson and you were there during the COVID years.

And in June 2020, Boris Johnson's partner Carrie Simmons asked you to organise a gathering to wish the Prime Minister a happy birthday. Celebration resulted in Johnson, Rishi Sunak, many others including you being fined by the Metropolitan Police. How do you look back at that incident? I mean obviously I you know I was at that one event and I just could not regret it more. And I feel I feel so apologetic about it. And the thing that is quite hard to reconcile, I suppose, is thinking is trying to think how they because you work in this building where everyone works kind of cheap by jail, even though we were trying to be quite Covid secure. I think these lines really get blurred between what's appropriate and what isn't. And this feeling of kind of you're sitting in meetings with these people anyway.

But the main thing is looking particularly at the news this week, you know, there was the Sugwe and the Met inquiries and it felt like particularly for families who've actually lost loved ones to Covid and particularly those frontline workers, A&E staff and so on, they did have some questions answered and now it's a year later and actually the whole thing doesn't feel resolved. So how do you feel about it? I feel that, I mean obviously the events themselves just shouldn't have happened. And I know that those involved feel incredibly regretful about it. But I think that it was a terrible, terrible mistake to then put the Covid inquiry to come that a year on it doesn't feel resolved again. And in fact, they're thinking, OK, have I been doubly lied to? And the idea of not being able to have some kind of closure to it must feel absolutely terrible. Yeah, because as we've heard in the last few days, Boris Johnson's been referred to police by the Cabinet Office over further potential rule breaches during the pandemic. A spokesperson for the former prime minister said it was totally untrue and that there'd been further COVID rule breaches.

You were there. What was going on? Well, I mean, I was, as I said, I was at one event, but I really don't know the details of these events, particularly at Chequers, that are coming out. Obviously, you know, on the weekends, he's a private person and can do what he wants. But I think, you know, the fact that there's doubt around at all is very concerning. And if the police have been informed, obviously, Boris Johnson got some questions to answer. I think that, you know, a big concern for me and a lot of the people who took part in the initial inquiries and obviously for anyone who's looking for answers coming out of those ones and into future ones is how well are these things run? Because how is this not picked up the first time around? And it just doesn't satisfy anybody or really give comfort i think that you know literally a year on from the sue gray report

coming out we're kind of having to hash this over again um i want to go back to the book because the prime minister in your book is a woman we've only had three female pms in our long history. Why did you choose for her to be a woman? Well, obviously, I worked fairly closely with Theresa May. And I really saw how she was kind of privately and how hard she was working and how hard she was trying to kind of hold her party together, hold the country together, and kind of fight on just a single issue, Brexit, where she had so many other things she wanted to do. And the appalling misbehaviour from some of her MPs, you know, aside from Pessminster and so on, she also had her own MPs saying to her ahead of a meeting of her party, you better bring a noose. You know,

it's just, it's totally disgusting. And I think that there is definitely a different standard, both there and in the media with how women politicians are treated. And I just wanted to explore it a little bit. And, and truthfully, I mean, I'm sure she wouldn't thank me for this. But I really wanted to, you know, without it obviously being totally based on her, give this sense of what it must be like behind the scenes when you're being kind of attacked on all fronts and you've got a job to do and you're getting constant scrutiny for like,

how's your hair and makeup looking? And do you, you know, does your male counterpart look tired and hardworking? Yeah, and you look haggard. I'm afraid that used to come up a lot and I was quite interested in exploring it. I've got to ask you because we talk about it a lot and i was quite interested in exploring it i've got to ask you because we talk about it a lot on women's hour because we've joked about the sex in

your book but there have been instances of sexual assault allegations in westminster across most political parties it has to be said what kind of a place is westminster to work in is it safe for women i mean truthfully i've not experienced any of these kinds of assaults and I'm very fortunate not to have done. And I kind of specifically don't explore this in the book because I think it has to be handled so sensitively. And I would just be so fearful of getting that wrong. These instances happen. I don't think it's an unsafe place for women. But I think a few of these men could be doing with some education about how to behave. And we were actually talking in the green room earlier about some kind of toxic male behavior that comes out of romantic comedies and the kind of stuff we still enjoy watching.

And, you know, they aren't necessarily the best lessons for young men to learn, let alone, you know, men who are voting on behalf of us and getting legislation done. But I think that women should just never feel afraid. They shouldn't be backing down. We should make more space for them in Parliament. And I think, frankly, some of these men have to get a grip of themselves. Cleo, thank you so much for speaking to me. The book is called Whips. It's by Cleo Watson. Cleo, stay right there because I think you're going to enjoy the next item as well.

Thank you for that. Thanks for having me on. Moving on. Let's by Cleo Watson. Cleo, stay right there because I think you're going to enjoy the next item as well. Thank you for that. Moving on. Let's Eat Grandma. They're an electro-pop duo composed by best friends Rosa Walton and Jenny Hollingworth. Friends since they were four years old. They made their first song at age 10 and used to write together in Rosa's family home in Norwich. Two

decades of friendship and three albums later, including one which was nominated for an I Ivan Avello Award, no less. They're soon to be performing at Meltdown Festival in London, curated this year by Christine and the Queens. And I'm delighted to say that both Jenny and Rosa are live with me in the studio. Welcome, both of you. Could there be higher praise than being selected to be at Meltdown by Christine and the Queens?

I mean, it was so exciting for us because we've been a fan of him for such a long time. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it was very exciting for us. And we're really happy to be here this morning as well. We are delighted you're here as well. I've got to ask because everybody keeps asking ask it keeps asking me where does the name come from um we named the band when we were 13 and we were kind of we were always quite um um a unique band in some ways you could say we're always doing it was kind of like a just a fun project for us and we kind of just thought what would be a fun

name so uh one of our friends just came up with this punctuation joke brainstorming at my birthday party like what would be a good band name we'd be like coming up with some really awful ones before that and so I was like what about let's see grandma a lot of people think what does grandma think of it I think I think the grandma's like to be involved be included um I love that you were only 13 when you came up with the name because your origin story is delightful. You met at kindergarten. Yeah, we met at school, actually.

But, yeah, it was like, yeah. You were four? We were four years old. Yeah, Rose always says that I was, I don't actually remember this because it's so long ago, that I was drawing a picture on the table. Yeah, snail. I was like, oh, she's an artist. Maybe we'll be in a band one day, thinking ahead.

So the intention was set. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the band sort of was initially just another one of our little creative projects that's kind of blown out of proportion, really. And we never really intended to end up doing music as a career exactly. It just kind of ended up happening from one of the projects we did together. How do you divvy up the songwriting in the production? And I suppose because you've grown up together,

you've learnt the instruments and all the rest of it and figured it out between the two of you over the last 20 years. It really depends on the album. At first we were writing very much together and more recently we've done more stuff separately and then brought it to each other and it's like, yeah, mixed up depending on what the project is. I think we should hear the two of you perform something.

Tell me what we're going to hear. We're going to hear Two Ribbons. Tell me about Two Ribbons before we hear it. What's it about? It's the title track off our most recent album and it's about our friendship when we're going through a difficult time in our relationship. And also about the loss of my boyfriend a few years ago. So it's kind of a combo of those two things.

Yeah, that was your boyfriend, Billy, who died of cancer. Yeah. And you also lost one of your collaborators as well, Sophie. Yeah. How did this impact you as friends, as musicians and your music? Just the grief that you were experiencing. Yeah, it was definitely a massively difficult time. Even now I feel a bit emotional talking about it,

but, yeah, it had a huge impact on our relationship. It caused a lot of strain because of what was going on, and I think making this recent album was kind of a healing process for both of us so it's quite a different record in that sense it was kind of just about us and our friendship and our lives rather than any real aspirations outside of that really. So do you feel different because of the experience and the process of writing. Yeah, definitely. I think that making this record was really healing for us and we kind of wrote songs to each other on the record

to kind of talk about the different experiences we were going through. Like this song that we're about to play was kind of written almost to Rosa to explain an experience that I was going through at the time. Well, now that we've understood the context, it's going to be quite an emotional listen I think shall I get you two to go and take your positions yeah so we're going to hear the song that um Rosa and Jenny have just been telling us about it's called Two Ribbons it's from their newest album um and I'm going to introduce the band we've got Cam Khan on, Eleanor Costa on drums and Lee Evans on guitar. The girls are just setting up. Cleo and Helen are still in the studio.

This is a real treat for us here on Women's Hour this Thursday. So we are going to hear a live rendition of Two Ribbons by Let's Eat Grandma. grandma absolutely amazing that was so beautiful come and take a seat so beautiful and what a perfect song to sing for us an anthem to female friendship beautiful yeah jenny rosa well done that was absolutely stunning um we are going to run out of time we've got a couple of minutes we've been asking everybody obviously tina turner the great tina turner out of time we've got a couple of minutes we've been asking everybody obviously Tina Turner the great Tina Turner has died but we've been asking our listeners to give us their Tina Turner moments

have you got one girls? well we're both really inspired by her and her amazing power and just what an icon she was as a performer as an artist. And yeah, I think that she will be very missed. I think she's someone that's inspired so many icons that we have today.

Yes. You know, your performance and that will have inspired lots of people listening. It's a beautiful, beautiful song. Oh, thank you. How are you feeling about performing at Meltdown? Really excited, a bit nervous, but there's such an amazing line-up and we just feel so thrilled to be playing at a festival

with so much amazing talent. And also you've done so much exciting stuff. At the end of last year you recorded a soundtrack for a Netflix show which has got a great name, The Bastard's Son and the Devil Himself. Yes, yeah, that was a really amazing project, especially after having done three records to do something completely different. And how was that, Rosa, working on something that was creatively so different? Yeah, really amazing experience and good to be doing a project that involved lots of different people and um it's like a really new way of writing for us yeah it was wonderful wonderful and long may this creative partnership continue you have to come back and

talk to us every like to every decade i think i would love that we'll make that happen um cleo tina turn a moment it has to be every time i listen to proud mary she hits like every element decade, I think. I would love that. We'll make that happen. Cleo, Tina Turner moment? It has to be every time I listen to Proud Mary. She hits like every element of being a woman, I think, where she begins at the start about being nice and easy and then rough and she kind of goes crazy and you can't help but really dance to it. And I think she just kind of hits every angle.

Yeah, Helen, you a fan? I'm a massive fan you know in in a crazy twist I'm I'm a football fan I'm also a big musical theatre fan so I remember going to see Tina Turner the musical and one of my friends Michael was performing in it and um and I just remember coming it's almost autobiographical. And I remember coming away and just being so inspired by her life and how she basically overcame so many hurdles and obstacles and came out the other side as an absolute queen. What a legend. I was so sad to hear of her passing.

She's a true game changer. Well, Anne dropped us an email to say, in the 80s, the Airline Hours cabin crew- on brought Tina and her entourage to the UK from the continent. Apparently, she borrowed a penny and took the drinks trolley out and served them all drinks. Wish I'd been on that flight. That's it from me. Thank you to all the guests.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex and dangerous places in the world. In my new 10-part series, Frontlines of Journalism, I'm taking you to some of the most difficult stories I've had to cover. Six mortar rounds landed in or around the graveyard.

Getting a bit emotional about it, actually. To look at the obstacles that get in the way of the truth and how journalists like, navigate around them. It is never definitive. We can have this argument. Journalists tend to argue. Every word that comes out of your mouth is a form of opinion. If the world saw, the world would react.

Subscribe to Frontlines of Journalism from BBC Radio 4 Now on BBC Sounds. pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.