Woman's Hour - Toni Collette, Women of the Year, Disciplining children

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Since her big break in Muriel’s Wedding 30 years ago, actor Toni Collette has graced our screens in a huge list of standout roles from The Sixth Sense to Hereditary, Little Miss Sunshine to Mickey 17. She joins Kylie Pentelow to discuss her latest film, Goodbye June. The emotional directorial debut from Kate Winslet tackles themes of love, loss and Christmas as a fractious family come together to sit vigil for the family matriarch, played by Helen Mirren. It’s the last day of the year and always a good time to reflect on the inevitable ups and downs that any year can hold for all of us. But what about the people in your life who have particularly impacted you this year. Who have been the women – close to you or maybe not – who have been significant for you? Friends, family, public figures? Kylie is joined by Olympic rower Dame Katherine Grainger – currently the chairwoman of the British Olympic Association (BOA), Helen Lewis, staff writer at The Atlantic and Natalie Haynes - author of six novels and broadcaster in her own right.We all have to juggle money, but are we spending it in ways that actually bring us joy or cause us anxiety? We revisit The Woman’s Hour Guide to Life episode on Challenging Your Money Mindset and dig into spending habits and explore how to align your money choices with the life you really want. Nuala McGovern speaks to journalist and author Anniki Sommerville, Claer Barrett, Consumer Editor at the Financial Times and host of the Money Clinic podcast, and Abigail Foster, chartered accountant and author of The Money Manual.With the Christmas school break in full swing, perhaps your house has been full of children. But what do you do when someone else’s child begins to act up? Do you tell them off or simply put up with the behaviour until you can hand them back to their parents? Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program at this New Year's Eve. I hope you're having a good day so far. We have a great program for you today. Actor Tony Collette will be talking about her new emotional film, about the death of a parent, which was directed by Kate Winslet, someone Tony always wanted to work with. And we'll be looking back at her varied career

and how she feels about Muriel's wedding, that film that gave her her big break, 30 years ago. Also, as 2025 comes to a close, what woman has stood out for you? Who is your woman of the year? Maybe it's someone close to you who's made a direct impact on your life or maybe someone in a public realm. Now, we've already had a lot of comments from you on this. One listener mentioned Judy Murray and Andy Murray, who've done so much for women in sport. Judy for going into schools and Andy for speaking up for women. Another listener nominated her mum, Mary Wibley. She said she's 76 and indomitable.

Last year, she started the village pickleball club and learned to be a coach. She runs the book club, and she's launched a campaign to save her village shop by turning it into a community venture, complete with a repair shop and counselling room. She says this is just an average year in her life. She's also an amazing mum, grandmother and friend. So do get in touch with your woman of the year. As always, you can text the programme. The number is 84844.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. can email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 0300-144. We're also going to have three brilliant guests from the world of politics, arts and sport to discuss their woman of the year. And would you tell off someone else's child? Is it helpful to another parent or simply interfering? Maybe you've had a house full of other people's children over Christmas and were desperate to tell them off or we'll be speaking to two women who have experience on both sides of that debate. We'd like to hear your thoughts and your experiences of this too.

Do let us know, 84844, or the WhatsApp is 0300-100-444. But first, since her big break in Muriel's wedding, now three decades ago, the actor Tony Colette has become a familiar face in many standout film and TV roles from The Sixth Sense and Hereditary to Little Miss Sunshine and more recently, Mickey's 17. Now, if you've found time to watch a festive film or two over the last couple of weeks, you may have come across Tony's latest project called Goodbye June. It's a star-studded and emotional directorial debut from Kate Winslet. It's written by Kate's son, Jo Anders,

and inspired by the death of Kate's mum, his grandmother. Now, the film tackles themes of love, loss and Christmas as a fractious family come together to sit vigil for the family matriarch, played by Helen Mirren. Now Tony plays one of her children, the spiritual sister Helen, who rushes home from abroad with crystals in her bra and affirmations in her headphones as the family descend to put their differences aside and give their mum a fitting send-off. Her siblings are played by Andrea Reisborough, Johnny Flynn and Kate Winslet, alongside Timothy Spall as their dad. So here's a bit of a flavour of that strained relationship as they argue over who will stay where when dad accidentally floods the house. If mum can't go home, she'll have to stay at mine, and that's that.

Do you mean to your house, Molly? Of course. Who else is? To stay with her. Ask us. Yes, to stay with me. And then Connor and you and dad, Helen, can stay with Julia. Yeah. Yeah, great. Whatever. Yeah.

Absolutely fine. That's a very good idea. Plenty of room. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's good. Yeah. Oh, my God. How did this even happen? Dad forgot to turn and tap, sir. No, I never. No, I never did. It is unbelievable.

Mercury is in retrograde, though. You know that. Okay, moving on. Just a snippet there of the film Goodbye June. Well, I got to speak to Tony recently about her experience of making the film. And we started with how she feels about putting out such a tearjerker

into the world at this time of year. There's so much pressure on Christmas to be this, you know, joyous family time. And it is. It actually is still that in the film. But I can understand that people would potentially slightly bork at the idea. of it being a Christmas movie because some of it's intense, it's heavy, it's about loss,

it is about grief, but it is so life-affirming and so uplifting and heartwarming, and it's about family coming back together after being fragmented and those connections strengthening and I think it's quite a healthy kind of healing film and kind of like an ideal way of saying goodbye to someone to celebrate their life, to give them the most, you know, Helen Mirren's character, and plays our mum June, and she loves Christmas, and she's sent off in the most beautiful way. It's got a pretty dysfunctional family at the centre of a chaotic year. Four siblings. I'm one of four, so I can very much identify with some of the themes. How is that for you working as one of those siblings and Kate Winslet being another?

It was a total gift and the experience kind of felt magical. Look, they're all, yeah, adult children coming back together. Their lives are kind of fragmented. they're disjointed and disconnected and have some petty issues with each other, some larger issues with each other. And mum, before she leaves, very cleverly helps them kind of come back to really seeing things clearly and gets them to kind of build a bridge and mend things so that it truly is like a time of peace and not full of all these grievances and disgruntled crap. And I guess when someone's dying,

Your priorities get sorted out pretty quickly. It's the great kind of equaliser or neutraliser. It just kind of puts things in their place and they're able to move beyond things they've been holding on to for years. And Kate Winsett directed it and she said that she assembled her dream cast for this film. You mentioned Hallamirin, Timothy Spall, who is amazing in this as your parents. He really is. They both are amazing.

Everyone's amazing. Andrea Reisbrough and Johnny Flynn play the other siblings. and obviously Kate, oh, look, I was blown away when she asked me to do it. I was on a holiday in Italy. I was in a public place eating and I got a call from her saying, I mean, I've talked about it for so long about wanting to work with Kate. She was really at the top of my list. So when I got this call, not only about working with her as an actor,

but it's such a big deal to make your directorial debut and then to be chosen to be a part of that, I put a napkin over my face and cried because I was so overwhelmed with joy. Usually meetings take, they can take up to a month to get on the phone with someone or Zoom somebody. I spoke to her two days later and I always just felt like I kind of knew her. And weirdly, when we did work together and get to know each other, we do feel very sisterly. It just felt immediate. She's so articulate and obviously had such a handle on the story. Her son Joe wrote this when he was 19 as an exercise for a screenwriting course.

his ability to see people as they are and just the understanding of what it is to be human and the cycle of life is really beyond his years. So she said, you should read it first because I was like, I don't even care, I'll do it. I want to just be, I'd be a flying a wall, I don't care of it. But when I did read the script on top of the joy of being asked to be a part of something, it just made my heart explode.

And I couldn't wait to do it. What did you make of your character then? Because Helen is kind of a bit woo-woo, isn't she? A bit spiritual. She kind of brings a little element of fun to it, doesn't she? She's got her crystals, her drum. Did you enjoy bringing that character to life? It looked like you did.

Absolutely. My character is the eldest child. And I think there's that thing as the eldest child when other kids start popping out. The focus shifts, right? So your parents are obviously still there for you, but there's a kind of sense of being jilted, like a little bit of an abandonment issue going on.

And I think her life has just been this kind of, she's one of those journeying people, constantly seeking to kind of fix herself or better herself or connect with something where she feels safe. And so I think her gravitation towards that alternative kind of lifestyle stems from that looking to find some wholeness in her life. However, what Kate didn't know, I'm into all that stuff. So at first I was like, why is everyone laughing at me? And then I realized, oh, I'm the comic relief.

and they're making fun of the stuff that really matters to me but I get to be the kind of life raft there are some really heavy moments and then as an audience member you need to kind of land somewhere and breathe for a minute before you continue and it's kind of an honour to be in that position when we meet your character she's pregnant

and the film really cleverly explores how often those themes of birth and death seem to go together in life there are some really poignant moments when your character and your mother kind of realise that she won't get to meet her grandchild. It's really upsetting.

There were really key kind of emotional moments to that film that so many people can relate to, I think. It affects all of us. I remember when I had my kids, I had this really profound understanding of being part of nature and the cycle of existence. It was really, like it came to me

and some things I think you have to go through in order to really understand them. You can talk to somebody, you can read about it, the research you want, but it's actually something that you have to experience. And maybe part of the joy of the movie is about the kids and the fact that my character has a baby coming somehow provides a lot of hope and distills that idea of the entrance in the exit and the cycle of what we experience here on our beautiful planet.

Yeah, the scenes with Ellen, oh, incredible. There's some moments in the film where she's on her own. They break my heart Because she holds it together She's so stoic And she so loves her family She has poured her entire life into her family And the moments where she's completely still

Mostly kind of lying on her side In her bed in a hospital ward Looking out the window And you see what it's really doing to her And what she's facing It's totally heartbreaking There's a few funny moments with her and you though When she basically tells you all the time

Not to wear yellow And I think there are so many daughters who know that feeling of their mum telling them what to do. I know. And it's, you know, it's quite charming as well, isn't it? Yeah. And look, you get into, it's almost like you're assigned a role in a family, you know, and everyone plays their part.

And actually, her passing is the opportunity for everyone to come into themselves in a real way and let go of the part that they've played and they don't have to uphold those archetypes anymore. When she's going at me about the yellow, honestly, that's really funny to talk about the yellow. And it kind of does look really sunny and gregarious. And she's very, like, airy and joyous and tries to smooth everything out, a bit of a people-pleaser and just like, everything's cool, man. But it could have kind of been anything. It just needed to, you needed to see her just, like, picking a bit and what it does

and how I kind of have to just overcome it. And those kind of gripes, they exist in all families, right? Where you're just like, here we are again. We do struggle in the UK to talk about death. I think in Western society in general, it's much more embraced in Eastern, yeah. Do you hope that people will take away from this film that it is good to talk about that and the fact that it is inevitable? I hope so.

I think it makes it easier. I think it makes life more enjoyable because you're actually embracing the context of life rather than denying it. And I'm just going to, full disclosure, I'm a Scorpio. I think about it a lot and I'm into change and transformation, not only at work, but in life. I think the purpose of life is love and growth, but it's an inevitable part of life. And not looking at it isn't going to make it go away. I think it's much healthier for everybody to be able to talk about it. And I think, well, I kind of hope that this film shows people how it can be done in a healing way,

in a positive way, in a warm way, in a way that celebrates life and what we have here, rather than the inevitable mourning but it can potentially help with the morning and they never go away if you love them that love is always there but they will exist in memory form and ultimately all we have is this moment and pretty much all of life is memory

if this could start those kinds of conversations that would be incredible. When I watched it I probably spent about an hour afterwards crying because like so many people I've experienced the loss of a parent and interestingly I was watching it with my husband and he was crying as well.

And it did make us kind of connect in that moment and think about what we've both been through. But the film kind of does come with a bit of a warning that it does really hit home in a big way. Exactly. Definitely have a hanky or tissues. At the premiere, we all had a hanky on our seats. I'm in the movie.

I know what's happening. I've seen it before. There was not one dry bit of the hanky at the end. I was kind of convulsing with like trying to hold the emotion in. Also, there's this notion of certain emotions not being acceptable or that they're bad. Emotions are energy, helping you understand your life and guiding you and helping you understand what works and what doesn't and how to process your existence. It's okay to have those feelings.

I haven't lost the parent yet and I dread it. I have obviously experienced grief of people who are very, very important to me, who I love very much. it's part of life and I think the sooner we can embrace it rather than ignore it the more we can enjoy what we have rather than it being tainted by

the shadow side of it you mentioned that this is the first time that Kate Winslet's directed what about your ambitions for directing? Yeah I'm absolutely doing it I'm attached to three projects I can't wait okay how is that going then yeah it's going well

I mean I'm really learning a lot actually as a producer, building up to when we actually go into production. But I've been wanting to do it for so long. It just feels like it's about time. And I know Kate that kind of felt the same way. So I have three projects that I really love. And it's just a matter of, you know, getting it together, getting right cast, getting the financials all sorted out.

And you have to keep growing. And I love my job. I think I will always act, but I need to spread my wings as well. Well, looking forward to that. Lots of our listeners will have first seen you in Muriel's wedding. I cannot believe that came out three decades ago. Neither could I. Yeah, it feels like yesterday.

It still means a lot, doesn't it? That film to so many people. How do you feel about it? It means a lot to me. It completely changed my life. I mean, God, I didn't think I'd have a career. I'd done one film before that. I'd done some theatre.

I went to drama school. Sometimes you can tell when something's going to have a certain kind of response. I can anyway. It's only happened a handful of times. I didn't know then because I didn't even know myself really well. I was probably more like Muriel than you would understand, well, that I could understand. But, yeah, it changed, not to change my life, it kind of created a whole new life for me. So I will be forever indebted and forever very, very grateful for that beautiful story as well.

You know, it's an incredible story. A girl escaping an abusive life and changing her family's story because she's the one brave enough to face it. You have had such different roles, haven't you? You're extremely versatile. Is there anything on the acting side that you would really still like to do that you haven't done? Not repeating myself was intentional because when I first did go to L.A., of course, being so creative over there, they just kind of offer you the same kind of roles. And something in me knew not to do it, just don't take it, even though it was a good opportunity.

Some roles... That's brave. Yeah, I used to have big balls. I swear to God, I don't know how I navigated my life, but I just had some sense of what... it's just a knowing. I don't know how I knew, but I did. So I think it has more to do with the capacity in which I'm involved. So I want to direct and I am also producing. I'm enjoying writing more. And I kind of have this notion that the roles that come to me are often meant for me, that ability to hear like, I have to do this. It almost chooses you. But I do seem to be

given these incredible opportunities, which my arm is permanently bruised from pinching myself. This is kind of the time of the year when everyone seems to feel quite reflective and also thinking about the year to come what they're hoping to achieve in 2026. Where do you stand with that? Do you like to kind of take stock at the end of the year and do you have New Year's resolutions? I don't really look back that much. I have learnt a hell of a lot over the last several years. I used to make news resolutions but they were kind of silly and actually I feel really good

where I am at. I don't feel like I want to make some great change or. or, you know, exercise some token idea just for the sake of it. I feel pretty balanced and content and probably won't do that. Good for you. Yeah, it is. And I'm aware that it's, you know, unusual. Are there any life lessons that you'd like to share with our listeners?

It sounds simple, what I'm about to say, and it's incredibly hard. I'm not a control freak, but I think we like to feel safe, and that involves a bit of control. And I really am at the point where I have surrendered to life and I'm listening more for cues and for signs and for, I just am very aware that I am not entirely, you know, we all have choices, but I'm not entirely in control and that life is more enjoyable when you surrender and there's no resistance or the need to really like make things happen. And that is an ongoing thing for me, but I'm getting pretty good at it. And it does make life so much more enjoyable and just easier and more relaxing. I think everything's better when you're more relaxed. Do you think that's, I find that that comes with age as well?

Well, I used to think that, but there are some old people who are really not cool. Who don't like think about that or achieve that. Who want to be stuck in their ways, who want to stay maybe a little bit combative or angry at the world. I want to enjoy life. It's finite and it's transient and it goes really free. and quickly. It's just a very different approach to when I was younger. I love getting older. I wouldn't want to go back. Oh my God. It's so much better. That was the lovely Tony Collette who joined us to talk about her new film, Goodbye June, which is available to watch on Netflix now. It is the last day

of the year, of course, and always a good time, isn't it, to reflect on the inevitable ups and downs that any year can hold for all of us. But what about the people in your life who have particularly impacted you this year? Who have been the women in your life, close to you or maybe not, who have been significant for you? It could be a friend, could be a relative, or a public figure who's impressed you with something they've done or achieved, or it could be a celebrity who's captured your attention by something they've said or accomplished. Well, to discuss their women of the year, I'm joined by Dame Catherine Granger, currently the chairwoman of the British Olympic Association, the first woman to occupy that role who, amongst her many achievements, was

also the first British woman to win her five Olympic medals, five successive games for rowing. Also joining us is Helen Lewis, staff writer at the Atlantic, and a familiar name and voice on Radio Four, and also Natalie Haynes, author of nine books, including six novels and of course a broadcaster in her own right. Welcome to you all. Thank you for being here on Woman's Hour. Thanks for having us. So each one of you are here to represent or discuss a particular area and the significant women involved but it's it is a discussion and I'd love for you to chip in and say your thoughts when other people are talking about their woman of the year and to you the audience too have been asking you for your contributions and as always you've been very generous with your

thoughts and time and have sent us lots of suggestions do keep them coming in on 84844 we'll endeavour to read as many out as we can but let's start if we can by asking our panellists each of you, who is your personal woman of the year. So, Catherine, let's start with you. You, fair to say, you've had quite a year yourself, haven't you? You've been made a life peer, finishing your term as chair of UK sport in March, then becoming the chair of the British Olympic Association in April. So you can quite frankly nominate yourself.

But I'm guessing you're not. Who is your woman of the year? It's spot for choice. So many brilliant women we could talk about. Obviously, I'm sure everyone could do the same. my woman of the year I've gone for Lady Sarah Hoy

Sarah to all of us who know her well so Chris Hoy's wife who is I obviously met her I knew Chris when we competed in our first Olympics together back in Sydney 2000 so depressing a quarter of a century ago but we've known each other through sport

and I met Sarah through Chris she is wonderful impressive warm fun in her own right a brilliant mum brilliant wife but obviously as everyone knows now very publicly dealing with her husband

who's got terminal cancer and she herself has been faced with a very aggressive form of multiple sclerosis and yet if you spend any time in her company she still does an amazing amount of work for charity herself she's a lot of work with premature babies and young children

she is still so inspiring and underrated and understated and a joy to be around so she's someone who just shows but like we just heard from Tony Colette, life is for living and you've got to make the most of it and she's making the most of every minute of every day in every way with her family and the good work she does.

So because she's often under the radar, I want to put her front and centre for a woman of the year. Sounds like she might be quite surprised then that she's been nominated by you. I think she'll be surprised and I think she'll give me a hard time for nominating her. She wouldn't want to be nominated. That's how good she is. Oh, Natalie, let's come to you.

Who's your personal woman of the year? I am going to say, it's really hard, isn't it? Because you spend so much time with so many incredible women who just generally make your life better on an hourly basis. But I had an email on Christmas Day from someone I've never met before. Her name is Anna Zahrodnir, and she is my Ukrainian translator. And a few years ago, I wrote a book called A Thousand Ships, which was about the Trojan War and the women whose lives it affects.

And earlier this year, I had a message from my agent saying they were going to translate it into Ukrainian. And I was like, okay, well, I mean, do they need to hear more about women in war? Or have they got that covered? And I had this extraordinary email from Anna saying that she had been translating this war book while working by candlelight because Russian drone attacks had taken out their power. And that she had felt this incredible kinship with the women. was writing about as she was doing it and man I cried I showed it to my mum she cried and it's like I you become really aware sometimes I think that arts in general can be treated as a frivolity and I've had so very many people come to me at live shows to say thanks to still making radio when

lockdown was happening because you kept me going or thanks for writing that book because I would never claim the kind of essential of what I do is required but I would make a really strong case I think for how art can transform people who are saving lives and doing remarkable things and to think of Anna sitting there translating as war rages around her home

as her home has been destroyed just as those Trojan women's home was destroyed man that's but I'm not even close to done processing so yeah Anna gets my vote Helen can I come to you now Who's your personal woman of the year? Well, I'm going to pick a collective group, actually. I'm going to pick the women who wouldn't weished,

which is a fantastic Scottish word that a lot of us have learned recently, which means shut up. And by that, I mean the grassroots activists of four women Scotland, the policy collective Murray Blackburn-McKenzie, the women involved in writing and speaking about women's rights in Scotland. Now, I know this is an incredibly contentious debate about sex and gender, so people on both sides, but I have to say I do find it really inspiring

that you have had grassroots feminists who have taken on the Scottish government at a huge disadvantage in terms of their institutional authority and their funding. And what we have this year in Four Women Scotland case was just a really big significant and clarifying ruling. If people disagree with the law as it stands, they're obviously free to change it, but at least we know what it is now. We can have these discussions from a basis of fact. And for me, the fact that that was all down to women working often in their spare time is something that is very reflective of the history of feminism.

The feminist, the suffragette Hannah Mitchell once said the difficulty with feminism was you had to fit it in between dinner and tea. And I think that to me is the essence of what some of these women campaigners have done is that they've managed to do things in their spare time that have been really challenging to full-time paid politicians and lobbyists, and I really admire that. I just want to read out a few of our listeners' comments, their personal woman of the year.

Gareth says, my woman of the year is my friend Liz. I'm autistic and have many struggles navigating the social and professional worlds. Liz has been a consistently supportive, empathetic and kind presence this year, enabling me to not only accept aspects of my life, but also know that there are people out there who are compassionate and understanding of the neurodivergent experience. She also gives the most fabulous gifts, always finding excellent teddy bears of which I am a collector.

So we've had lots of comments, actually, people nominating their friends, they're quite a few nominating their mums. This one here from Lizzie says, four women have given me continuous support and laughter since we met at Vicar School. They are chaplains, carers and curates as well as mums and grandmas. We've pulled one another through some seriously tough times. Without Sam, Joe, Helen and Karen, life in ministry would not be half as much fun. You women are amazing.

Thanks so much for all your comments. Do keep them coming in. Helen, I want to come to you again if I can. One listener wrote in to say that woman of the year has got to be Giselle Pelico. Her incredible bravery has opened the door for women to break the silence that's so important in enabling women to come forward. I'm sure most of our listeners will know, but she is a French woman and survivor of a high-profile mass rape case who has become an icon for women internationally in waiving her right to anonymity and speaking out against sexual violence. you've mentioned her too.

You've had access to her memoir. Why is she important for you to mention? I thought she had this incredible phrase. So, yeah, as you say, listeners will probably know that she was subjected to mass rape, which was then videoed by her husband. I mean, that's the thing. The details of the case are so gothic.

You almost wouldn't believe them if it weren't for the fact there's extensive documentary proof. But what she said was this famous phrase, shame must change sides. Now, the shame doesn't belong to her as the victim of a sexual violence, it belongs to the perpetrators he went along with it. And I was thinking about that this morning when I was watching clips from the today program

of Queen Camilla talking about her, you know, the attempted sexual assault that she suffered on a train, just an everyday demeaning, diminishing experience, but something that is very powerful to hear, you know, our national figurehead acknowledging that has happened and it has happened to her. And I think, I don't, not sure whether or not that would have happened without the Pelico trial, but just that simple statement of Giselle Pelico saying, me who needs to be ashamed about this, actually. It's the perpetrators. Catherine, let's talk about your area of expertise, of course, sport, particularly it's been quite a year for women's sport. So can you tell us who your standout women have been and

standout moments too? Yeah, again, support for choice. 2025 has been extraordinary. I think every year increasingly we're having great sporting events for women. You know, just this year alone, And we've got women who are winning world titles, European titles, World Cup medals across, you know, everything from freestyle skiing to snowboarding, indoor and outdoor athletics, rowing, canoe, salam, track cycling, weightlifting, you name it. We're doing great things in it. But there's probably two major events that were dominating headlines this year for good reason, two amazing team events in the women's European championships for football and then the Rugby Women's World Cup that was hosted in England this year. and both times England won the tournament but also much more than that sort of made this incredible impact really strong statements about

what female athletes can do, what they can achieve, the reach they can have. You know, the footballers have talked when they won the European championships last time as well as this time really trying to drive more access led by the government hopefully about allowing any young girls

or young women who want to play football the same access that any young boy would have really trying to change the game in every sense And I think on the rugby side, the organisers of that World Cup event led by two incredible women as well, Sarah Massey, the managing director and Jill Whitehead, the chair, very much about that tournament is not just to showcase stunning athletes, but also to make sure that, you know, the clubs raise the standards of women to access, that families can come and enjoy rugby, that everyone who went from photographers to sporting reporters to the referees had a really strong female element that we'd never seen before. So again, it's just changing attitudes and mindsets through a bit of sport. And amazing, all the players, you can name both from football and rugby,

you can name all the players who are well recognised, especially through the honours list recently. But my one standout of them all probably is actually Serena Vigman, the manager for the England football woman, because one, she's done things that no other manager has done. She's now won three European titles in a row, first one from Netherlands, then two now for England. But I think increasingly in the, you know, that spotlight gets hotter and hotter for women's sport.

And in some ways it's brilliant. It brings, you know, interest and money and support and fans and engagement. But it also brings a sort of slightly darker side, as we've seen through social media, much more judgment, much more. I suppose that worrying side when you're put in that judgmental point when everyone has a view and what you do. I think Serena is one of those people who protects her players. She just says it very directly. as it is. She soaks up that pressure and then turns out allows people to flourish in that

amazing pressure. So I think she is, yeah, she's a pretty standout one for me this year. Incredibly busy year for women's sport. Also busy in the arts, Natalie. Yeah, of course. And today news that young performers, women performers, Olivia Dean, lowly young, driven album sales this year. So music seems to be a big standout area for the past year. It has been a remarkable year for women artists, I think. And in a slightly non-artistic way, I would like to at least briefly focus on the business side of it, that Beyoncé has become another billionaire. Yeah, we talked about that yesterday on the programme.

It is extraordinary that Taylor Swift used her gigantic eras to our money to buy back her masters. Quite aside from making music and all these artists have been making incredibly successful music this year, they have also exerted control over their work in a way that women are. historically couldn't and didn't. And that has been something really remarkable to see. I'm led to believe that artists now have much more balanced, let's say, contracts when they go into the music business, considering that they used to be exploited kind of indefinitely.

And at least part of that is because people can say, well, hang on a minute. You know, it turns out that I don't have to take the very worst conditions that are handed to me. women tend to enter the pop world when they're very young teenagers for the most part and so seeing these women who have grown up in the public eye like Taylor Swift or Sabrina Carpenter who have you know just had their teenage girl fans because they were teenage girls themselves when they started and who have grown up in the public eye and you know there's always

scorn for women doing that it's always like well this is enough because teenage girls like it and you're like wow you're going to be amazed how much straight men are going to follow those Hedgars in a few years time, see all music of the past. And they have found a way of continuing to relate to their fan base, continuing to make music, but continuing to take control of things. And so when people kind of throw a big hissy fit, because they don't like Sabrina Carpenter's album cover, and it's like, is it the most feminist? No, but you know what, that's not her job. She didn't agree to be a feminist figurehead in photographs for the rest of her life. She was famous when she was 12 and now she's reclaiming herself as a sexual being and

that is on her. And so when young women go to see her, you know, and parents are kind of tearing their hair out at the suggestive lyrics, suggestive is probably slightly understating it. It's like I really do understand and sympathise. And yet at the same time, I think she's doing something remarkable. And if teenage girls listening to Sabrina Carpenter are taking anything away from her. I would like to think it is you don't have to put up with a terrible boyfriend and if you do you should write a mean song. Interesting advice. Thank you very much. Let's come to you, Helen. In your field in the political realm, who do you think has really stood out in 2025? Well, I was just looking through it this morning and I think we kind of

don't even think about this anymore because it just seems so natural. But actually three of the great offices of state are now held by women. We have a chancellor, Rachel, leaves, Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood, and Foreign Secretary ofette Cooper. We also have a female leader of the opposite position, Kemi Badnock. So we're in a situation in which actually, you know, women are dominating the headlines

in British politics all the time, which I think is really fascinating. But for me, the most interesting case is actually, often this year have been the backbenchers, who I feel have really made their voices heard. And one of those I've been thinking about is Tonya Antinazzi, who led the charge on decriminalising abortion. And that was very interesting because she didn't take the maximalist position.

You know, She didn't think the wind is at my back, I'm going to go and ask for the biggest ask you can. She came up with something that was a kind of moderate compromise that was sensitive to the fact that there, again, it's a divisive issue. There are many people on the other side of it. But she essentially took the position that we shouldn't be prosecuting women for things they do to their own bodies in 2025. And so, you know, across the political spectrum, actually on the right as well, Sarah Potin, of reform has emerged as one of their big media performers. You know, we have got more and more interesting women. I cover America most of the time.

So for me, the most interesting women in British politics is Susie Wiles. Again, the first female chief of staff, you don't hear a lot about this. She is a pathbreaker. But, you know, renowned as being sort of ego less and quietly just getting on with whatever Trump wants and then comes out with a load of interviews in Vanity Fair in which she takes aim. She calls the vice president a conspiracy theorist. She says that Trump has an alcoholic psychology. You know, she obviously has extremely strong opinions of her own,

but she's also learnt to manage big male egos. it's such an interesting discussion we could talk for much longer but we are out of time Dame Catherine Granger Natalie Hayes and Helen Lewis thank you so much for coming in to talk to me about this

and you can keep writing in with your nominations I'll endeavour to read out as many as possible I just want to read a couple out now actually Fran says I'm nominating my daughter Hannah whose support through some difficult times has been absolutely amazing this one here I'm celebrating my amazing 25 year old daughter I'm going through

cancer treatment. And Beth has been so brilliant, which must be hard for her. She delayed doing her masters and travelling and visited every day in hospital. We make the most of every day with laughter, hugs and looking after each other. She gives me the hope for the future and our world. Isn't that lovely? And one woman here, Angie, says, my woman of the year is Alison Hammond. This has been one of the worst years of my life, she says, two children with cancer, my husband coming to the end of his Alzheimer's journey, death too soon of a friend, and now my elderly dog with a serious heart condition. Whatever program Alison appears on, she never fails to raise my spirits and make me laugh. Angie, thank you so much for that comment and we wish you all the very

best. So do keep your thoughts coming in on that. We'd also like to hear from you about whether it's okay to tell off another person's child. We'll be talking about that a little bit later so you can text Woman's Hour. The New Year's number is 84844 and you can also get in touch with us on social media or indeed on our website. Now, how would you define your current relationship with money? Have you already vowed to do better when it comes to juggling your finances in 2026? Well, the woman's hour guide to life is here to help. It's your toolkit for the juggle of modern life and the full series is available to listen

to now on BBC Sounds. It features a whole episode on how to manage your money mindset. So here's a bit of a taste of what to expect. This is journalist Anika Somerville, who joined Nula to unpack her complicated relationship with money. I think one of my main things that has been consistent throughout my life and actually my earnings have really fluctuated. It's just this underlying fear, which I've always had. So I think I can remember from a very young age, being scared to kind of look at my bank balance, for example. And this is back in the days when you would put your card into a machine and just always expecting it to be in the negative, like always.

thinking I'm going to have nothing in there, even if I actually knew, I mean, one of my first jobs was working in McDonald's. So I knew that I was earning money, but I always had a fear that it wouldn't be there. But interestingly, people would say, oh, well, because of that, maybe you would curb some of your spending. Maybe you would be much more mindful about your spending. It's actually quite the opposite. So when I have money, I spend it. But even when I'm spending it, I'm often worried about that. So that's what I've written a lot about. So the pleasure isn't there. What do you think drives you're spending, if you know?

I worked in sort of corporate jobs for a very long time. And I justify it because I had a very stressful job. I worked in market research and I traveled a lot, very long hours. And every time I achieved something at work, I felt like I deserved to reward myself with something. And for me, that was usually clothes. Clothes or beauty items. You know, I'd go for a little swing around selfridges, buy myself something.

So I just had this pattern of spending, which was like, okay, you've done a really good presentation, now you deserve to buy yourself something. That still continues. And I mean, on the outset, it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with that. You've done a really good job and you're giving yourself a little reward. Is it just that you couldn't afford it? I think what I'd like to just feel is that I'm in control of it because it feels like it's coming from a place where it's just almost like, you know, when you're eating a bag of cheesy puffs or something, maybe this is just me. No, I'm with you here. Go ahead. And you just can't stop.

And then you kind of look down and you think, I didn't even want to do that. Why have I done that? And it's mindless. Interestingly, one of the things I tried to do was be hypnotised. So I had hypnotherapy to try and curb some of the fears I had around spending. I can't say, I mean, it's interesting. You have to listen to a recording for 30 days.

It definitely made me think a little bit differently around money. But I still have those kinds of. kind of those emotions are very deep-seated and it's quite, it's almost like I need reprogramming. I was really, I always labelled myself as bad at maths. My dad was actually a maths teacher and we had a lot of angry kind of, you know, homework sessions where he would try and get me to understand quite simple maths. And I think sometimes for certainly women of my generation, I hope it's changing, I just felt like I don't understand money because I don't understand maths. And then also I would say that some of the terminology that people use

when they're talking about money. It can feel a bit like an exclusive club that you've not been invited to. So I hope, or I hope certainly I've got two daughters, I kind of hope that they're more financially savvy. So they feel empowered around money. So that was journalist Anika Somerville there. We also heard from two money mindset experts,

Claire Barrett, consumer editor at the Financial Times and host of the Money Clinic podcast. And Abigail Foster, chartered accountant, an author of the Money Manual. Well, they shared their best advice with Anika and with Nula. Abigail's top tip is to create a safety net. You are a big proponent of the Freedom Fund. Yes, yes, the Freedom Fund.

So you have heard of the Emergency Fund port where people put away three to six months of their essential spend in a fund that is easy to access in an emergency. The Freedom Fund is slightly different. It goes by other names, but the Freedom Fund specifically is for when you need to leave. So when you need to get up from a job, and it no longer serves you and you just want the ability to walk out of a job and think, right, I've got some money set away so I can go and look for something else. Or you want to get up and walk away from a partner. So many women that I speak to specifically even like young women or women in those 30s,

lifestyle creep has kind of creeped into their relationship where they've spent more and more that in this relationship. They're not actually that happy with, but they cannot afford to leave because it takes two incomes to keep the lifestyle that they've got. And that freedom fund can give you the ability. to walk out? How do you make that happen or what are some of the steps towards it? Because I imagine some partners might have a problem with it if they know about it. I think if they've got a problem with it, you need to leave. I would personally say, I think look at your freedom fund the same way

you look at your emergency fund pot. So once you've finished with that, then look to another easy access account that you're kind of putting that money away in every single month, make sure it's in obviously even the basic things like make sure it's in your name, make sure you're getting good interest rates and it's not necessarily that it's always going to be you're going to need it all at once for one particular thing it could be for a number of things but it is really I personally think it's a really really essential part of being yeah so and we can talk about dash in a moment as well but if you have if you're beginning to have some money that you can put to the side the emergency pot is number one yeah I would say the emergency fund pot they can

work simultaneously you know the emergency fund pot is technically there for things like your fridge breaks down or your car needs repair but the freedom fund is specifically there for you and being able to exit. But just think of that money is the money that's there to make you happier. I think often we think of finance and saving is this really boring thing and it's always depressing because we're putting money away and we can't touch it. But actually, you know, life happens. And if you're unhappy and you have, like, the money to change that,

that's why sometimes I'm a bit like anti when people are like, oh, like money can't buy happiness. And I think it can definitely buy you out of a really sad situation. But for people now, Claire, that, I don't know, maybe they're in a really tricky situation, feel themselves in lots of debt, kind of have lost their power over money. What would one of your tips be? If you can have an emergency fund and a freedom fund, absolutely wonderful. But for the vast majority of people in this country, being able to save any money at the moment in the cost of living

crisis is just doubly challenging. But I do think that the mindset when it comes to both maths and money is so linked, because it's about having that confidence to interrogate. Why can't you explain this to me in a way that I understand. Have another go. When we are in financial difficulty, removing the emotion from that situation and being able to communicate the story behind our numbers, which debt counsellors say to me is the thing that stops people coming forward for help more than any other. The shame, wanting to explain like all of the things that led me to get into this situation where I'm in debt. Debt counsellors don't mind about that. They're not judgmental at all. They just want to help you.

with your problems, but most people will spend a year or longer juggling Peter to pay Paul, getting into more debt, racking up more interest before they absolutely find that their finances cannot go on. And at that moment of the worst crisis point, then they will pick up the phone to step change, to citizens' advice, to another debt charity, all of whom are brilliant, by the way, and most of whom now also do WhatsApp messaging, because some people just can't bring themselves to talk on the phone and want to try and get a little bit of advice digitally first, which I think is a really great idea to try and get people to ask for help earlier and lose the shape.

That small step, whatever it might be. Absolutely. If you've missed a bill, speak to your supplier. If you have got the courage to look at what your budget is in terms of your incomings and your outgoings, and the outgoings are more than your income, that is called a deficit budget. most of the people whose citizens' advice are helping at the moment are in that situation. It's only going to get worse month on month.

So, you know, unless you ask for help, you're just delaying the inevitable. That was Abigail Foster and Claire Barrett speaking to Noola there. And for more brilliant tips and advice on transforming even, your money mind search for a Woman's Hour guide to life, or go to the BBC Sounds app and search for Women's Hour and click on the Guide to Life link at the top of our regular podcast feed the whole series. is waiting for you there. Now, with the Christmas school break in full swing, perhaps your house has been full of children lately, your own children, nieces, nephews,

maybe your friend's children or your children's friends. It's almost inevitable that a situation will arise in which they do something, shall we say, less than ideal. Kids simply being kids, if you like, but what do you do when one of the children, who isn't your own, begins to act up? Do you discipline them or simply put up with it? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by author and journalist Allegra Chapman and Charlotte Cripps, Culture and Lifestyle columnist at The Independent. Welcome both of you to Women's Hour. Hi, good morning.

Allegra, let's start with you then. Is it okay to tell off someone else's child? Okay, well, I would like to just sort of wind it back a little bit because I'm not in favour of telling off anybody, but you use the word discipline, and I think discipline is what we're speaking about, and the root of the word discipline, the Latin root, means to learn or to teach. So my aim, I'm not saying I always get this perfect,

but my aim with my own children is to teach and to help them to learn how to be, you know, a responsible adult and how to live life when they're no longer living under my care. So I'm not rampaging around, shouting at my children or shouting at anybody else's children. Like I say, not perfect, you know, there is only so many times, one can ask somebody to put their shoes on without losing their marbles. But I'm aiming to, you know, look for teaching opportunities of my children and talk to them if I feel their behaviour is problematic in some way and explain to them why and explain to them what I would like to see instead.

So my feeling is I really enjoy it when my friends and the people that I am close to feel able to also give those teaching moments to my children and support them. because then we're not parenting in isolation and we're not dealing with our children in complete isolation. We have this habit of sort of wistfully saying, oh, it takes a village to raise a child and then just wandering off and ignoring the fact that we don't have those villages anymore.

But it really does take a village. We never used to parent in the isolation that we do now, but we live in a capitalist society that has reduced us into smaller and smaller groups until we're now, just in nuclear family situation. And let's face it, it's very often the mother that is taking on the brunt of that and is trying to hold up the sky all by herself. So, you know, we're not meant to parent in these isolated situations.

We're not meant to have it all on us and have all of this pressure on our shoulders. So to me, when I'm in a group of friends and my friends are able to, you know, talk to my children and be those supportive, trusted adults in those children's lives, that's a huge benefit to me, taking some of the pressure off. and it's also a benefit to my children to have other trusted adults that they can learn from and get support from. Charlotte, let's bring you in here then. How do you feel about other people telling your children off? Well, I kind of, so many parents I find and family members and friends sort of think it's perfectly okay to tell my children off.

And it's happened quite a few times. and I think that it's not really appropriate because I think the point is that we all parent in different ways and you know it's it doesn't work to discipline other people's kids because the way I things that I might believe are important might not be the same for another parent and it gets very confusing I think that you know unless it's a complete emergency I mean I had a child who climbed up on the back of the wall and onto my kind of kitchen roof which is made of glass and obviously that was really serious so I dragged them off there and sat them down and when their parents came I said you know you know this is this is really dangerous you need we need to deal you need

to deal with this with your child because you know I've told them off already but you know if it's not an emergency what I tend to do is kind of keep out of it and kind of maybe guide them a bit to kind of not throw, you know, all the paint all over the walls or whatever, but, you know, if it's really serious when their parents come, I'll very sensitively mention it to them, you know, or kind of deal with that in that way, because what I've found is, you know, when I've been away for weekends with my kids and, you know, particularly dad friends, because my, I'm a single mum, so my children don't have a father. I think that dad's due to think they have to step into that role which in one sense is really sweet and caring and I really

appreciate it but in another way you know one one dad friend he was like sort of you know oh to one of my children take your elbows off the table and you know you're not you're not allowed to unless you finish everything on your plate you can't have pudding and you must go to bed at seven and and it's you know I've had worse experiences than that where I've been absolutely flabbergasted at the kind of level of lecturing my children and you know I find it I think it's quite inappropriate and I guess that would be that would be described as parenting wouldn't it rather than rather than discipline we've had some interesting comments on this um the one person here says I was washed my hands in in the mn S loos when two young children started pulling out paper towels and throwing them around their mother

was in one of the cubicles and so couldn't see what was happening I told the children to stop and suggested that they were wasting trees their mother came stop storming out of the cubicle and told me I had no right to tell her children off. She was very aggressive. I don't know if I would do it again. Charlotte, what do you think about that in terms of if somebody, you know, a stranger is potentially speaking to your children in that way? Well, I almost think it's worse if you tell off children you don't know

because it's a bit like people rolling their eyes and shaking their heads if your toddler has a tantrum in a public place. It's, I just, you know, as I say, unless it's a kind of very major incident, I try and keep out of it. Allegra, what do you think about that? Would you mind if somebody told your child off for doing that, for wasting paper towels? My children would definitely get told off of that. They know to be very careful of the environment.

That's something they're very conscious. But if it's someone else, if it's not you, a stranger. Yeah, so I, again, I'm looking for the learning opportunity and that. So I'm seeing that as an opportunity. And if somebody else has told my children off, I think that's an opportunity for us then to discuss, okay, do we think that person was a bit being a bit unfair? Do we think they were rude? I'm quite happy if I feel somebody has been, you know, unnecessarily aggressive or unpleasant to my children. I'm very happy to push back and say, no, excuse me, you're not going to speak to my children like that. Because again, I think that's a learning opportunity for them to see me hold a boundary and to see that it's okay to stick up for yourself. And this is how we do it respectfully and politely. but also, you know, we can have a conversation about that. I think it's really important for them as they grow up to know that my way of doing things is not the only way.

I don't want to try and sort of control their environments and be the only voice in their head because one day they're going to have to live without me and I want them to be able to be the fullest versions of themselves. They can be not just be little mini-meas out in the world. So I think it's really useful for them to see that other people have different beliefs, different ways of doing things, perhaps different rules in their house, etc. And then we can talk about, well, what do we think?

think about that, you know, do we think that they were being a bit unfair? Do we think that maybe we can respect their needs, but we would do things differently? You know, is it okay to make space for what that person wants, actually? We might think they're being unreasonable, but should we accommodate them anyway? You know, if we're going back to that, that discipline idea as being learning, that is a learning experience in itself. We've had another comment here saying, telling off other people's children is incredibly contentious. I tend to approach it as if they are being naughty together with my child, I'll tell them both off. Or if they're actually hurting my child, I'll intervene and tell them to stop. Otherwise, I let them carry on and hope for the best.

This is interesting, isn't it, Charlotte? Because I find that with other people, with friends, I can say to them, you know, I'm happy for you to tell my son off if he's being naughty, but it has to kind of be that joint decision for me. So what do you think about that? I'm not keen on other people telling my children off, I have to say, as I say, unless it's an emergency. I think that the danger is that it can cause mum shame, you know, and it has to be done very sensitively. And also parents, including myself, you know, we all lose perspective. You know, if a child's being mean, I think a child's been mean to one of my children, I'm going to point the finger and be defensive. And I think often we don't get the full

story with children and it's important to kind of, you know, not kind of rush to, you know, judgment with other people's kids, you know, and be very sensitive about it. Very interesting discussion. This last comment here says, my house, my rules. If children come to us, they have to stick with our rules, which are pretty reasonable. No phones at the table, no jumping on the furniture, reasonable bedtimes and table manners and no screaming or shouting. Thank you so much for all your comments on that. And thank you too to Charlotte and Allegra. Really interesting discussion that I'm sure we will revisit. Tomorrow, it will be 75 years to the day since the Archers, of course, the world's longest running continuing

drama first launch. Nula presents a special program from Ambridge celebrating the program's female characters. Among others, she'll be joined by Sunny Ormond, who plays Lillian Bellamy. So do join her for that. That's New Year's Day. At 10 o'clock, I'll be back on Friday. Until then, thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm John York. In my podcast opening lines, I take a famous book, play or story. There is such beauty in the writing. And look at what makes it work. I see something new and it's every single time I read it. From classics. Something utterly transcendent and extraordinary.

To modern fiction. That kind of sense of joy and wonder. With the help of book lovers and expert voices, it feels like a hand is reaching out of the page. I reveal what makes these stories tick and explore their impact today. It's joyous, thrilling stuff. Opening lines with me, John York, from Radio 4.

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