Woman's Hour - Top Girls, Dame Glenys Stacey, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD)

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

Dame Glenys Stacey is stepping down as HM Chief Inspector of Probation for England and Wales at the end of May. In her last annual report she was deeply critical of the Probation services saying that privatising offender management was "irredeemably flawed". She looks back at nearly forty years in public service.Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) is a condition which can lead to severe depression, anxiety and personality change, leaving sufferers feeling suicidal and desperate every month. It is sometimes mis-diagnosed as mental ill health and is estimated to affect 5% of menstruating women. Paula Briggs, a consultant in Reproductive and Sexual health is leading a study looking a new treatments for PMDD.Fifty years ago today (17th April)) a 21-year-old woman from Northern Ireland, Bernadette Devlin, became Britain's youngest ever female MP and the third youngest MP ever when she was elected to Westminster in a by-election in the Mid-Ulster constituency. Historian, Dr Margaret Ward explains why her election was a seismic event at the time.Top Girls, the iconic feminist play by Caryl Churchill is currently on stage at the National Theatre in London. Three actors from the cast join Jenni to discuss why the play made such an impact when it was first performed in 1982 and how relevant it is today.Presenter: Jenni Murray Interviewed guest: Dame Glenys Stacey Interviewed guest: Dr Paula Briggs Interviewed guest: Katherine Kingsley Interviewed guest: Lucy Black Interviewed guest: Liv Hill Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Wednesday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Top Girls, Carol Churchill's play set at the height of the Thatcher era, is being performed for the first time at the National Theatre. Three of the women playing leading roles discuss the impact it made in 1982 and how well it stood the test of time. Fifty years ago today, a 21-year-old Northern Irish politician became Britain's youngest ever female MP. What happened to Bernadette Devlin? And a condition known as PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder.

Why is it so much harder to deal with than PMT, and what help might a new trial offer to women who suffer? You may remember late last year we spoke to Dame Glenys Stacey, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector for Probation, about the number of women who were being recalled to prison after release. Last month she delivered her annual report in which she was critical of the probation service and described the privatisation of the management of offenders

as irredeemably flawed. Now she's stepping down from the role despite having been offered the chance of serving a second term in the post. Why, despite that chance to continue, is she leaving? Well, I've had a very enjoyable three years in that job and really have appreciated very much the work of the Inspectorate and of People in Probation as well. But I have had a privileged life, actually,

in the sense that I've now worked for a good 40 years in public service, doing a range of very interesting jobs. And it's perhaps time to look at perhaps not working full time, but making contributions in other ways. Now, almost a year ago, the government announced what they called a female offender strategy with the aim of fewer women serving custodial sentences and the focus rather being concentrated in the community. In February, I think the Justice Secretary said he wanted to see short sentences abolished, not just for women. How is that progressing?

Well, it's certainly pointing in the right direction now. So we see sentencing policy really moving towards more early intervention, less imprisonment, more custodial sentences and that's all to the good and you know reflects the evidence base for what works for women actually and we know that there are a number of initiatives now underway to follow through the strategy that was announced last year. So for example there are a number of pilot arrangements for residential centres for women and so on but I think it all depends really on what is actually delivered over the next 12 months or so so there's some good intention there, it's pointing in the right direction

but of course we're all anxious to see there's actual delivery here not just good intent. We know that more women than men commit low-level crime and do tend to serve a short sentence. How really prepared do you think the community is to actually care for them? Well I certainly hope they are. These are women who generally as you say commit low-level crime. They're sentenced to short terms of imprisonment and they're in and out through that sort of revolving door. Often they have had very troubled lives. They may be addicted to drugs or alcohol. Often they have had very troubled lives. They may be addicted to drugs or alcohol. They often have mental health problems.

They are often themselves abused or have been abused by their partners or other people in their family. And I hope we all have a sense of obligation and recognition that those women need appropriate help. They need specialist help from a range of agencies in order to turn their lives around. And I would have thought that's what most of us would want, frankly. I know that you're also hoping to see improvements in the work done with perpetrators of domestic violence. As you said, a lot of them have suffered from it. What actually needs to be done in that area? Well, we know that across the number of, I'll start from the beginning, there's about a quarter of a million people each year

subject to probation supervision. We estimate at least one in two of those are actually domestic abuse perpetrators. So it's a prolific issue, that's the first thing. The second thing is that there are things that can be done to assist those people to change their ways. So, for example, there's a specific programme of work, the Better Behaviours Programme, that is targeted to them to enable them to better control their emotions and temper, to think twice, to think three times before resorting to violence, to avoid situations where that is likely

to happen for example but we do need a good enough number of perpetrators to undertake that program and yet it's fallen off in recent years well we need more courts to order it so in the last five years the number of orders for these so-called accredited programmes has reduced. And that's not the intention of government. It's happened more by accident than design. So we need them reinstated, really, given their proper place. And then we need a system for probation that allows those programmes to run. At the moment, if a court doesn't order the programme, a private probation company is not going to provide it for an individual

because they're not paid to do so. So the system itself needs to be re-geared, re-engineered around the evidence base that shows what works. And we know that these programmes work for a good number of domestic abuse perpetrators. So let's see more of them. How well trained are people who might be asked to do this kind of work within the probation service as it stands? The picture varies as far as I can see. So certainly in recent years, we've seen a fall off of training, which is regrettable. We've seen a fall off actually in the profession as a whole. It has been diminished in recent years because of policy changes to the way

probation is organised. And when we inspect, we find a lack of training often enough and a lack of professional development. And indeed, specifically, we've found that in relation to domestic abuse work, it is skilled work. What we don't want to see is people doing their level best, but not purposefully trained in how to do it and what actually works. So again, there needs to be a national approach now to reinstating proper professional training for workers who want to do the right thing but need the right skills and training to be able to do it. Now, you were very critical, as I said in the introduction, of the privatised service. Irredeemably flawed is what you said in your report. What do you mean? offenders but the majority of offenders are now managed by 21 different private companies. We

inspect those two parts of the service regularly and we find basically a two-tier service now. So the National Probation Service with offenders in the arms of the state is performing reasonably well but we find that those private companies that we inspect generally are not. So when I was reporting in March for example at that stage eight out of ten of private companies that we inspect generally are not. So when I was reporting in March, for example, at that stage, eight out of ten of the companies that we'd inspected in the last year, we found their delivery of an implementation of probation supervision as inadequate, not good enough, and that simply won't do. So this is partly because the contracts that they're working under aren't well funded enough, so there's a money issue.

There's also a question of the contracts themselves not being designed it is desperately difficult to take a complex social service a professional service like probation and then try and reduce it to a set of contractual measures understandably companies are chasing those measures rather than looking more holistically at the complexity and the quality of probation services as a whole and then you know on top of that if you if you've got 21 companies doing it inevitably over time you've got 21 different approaches to the estate the offices 21 different approaches to computer systems and development and so on and so you've got a disaggregated service when it makes so much more sense to aggregate it what's been the response to your critique well i think government

has very much welcomed my report. It's welcomed actually all of our reports and the evidence that we've been able to provide. It's solid evidence showing how things are working in practice and that's what ministers need in order to make wise decisions about the model for the future and they've been very welcoming of it. Now, as you said, you've had 40 years of public service. When you look back, what would you say has been the most

significant work in your view well that's a very difficult question i've had the privilege of doing some very interesting jobs and if i do look back i i was chief regulator for qualifications for five years at a time when we were reforming GCSEs, AS and A levels. And that was a very technical, challenging, but hugely enjoyable job. And with others at Ofqual, we were able to look closely at grade inflation to recognise that some of that was not actually based on evidence to get to a position where we can all have greater faith in the annual results that come out each summer.

And I'm very proud of the work that I and others did there in order to get to that position. It's hard to reflect back now that we were in a world where grades went up in extra each year. So I think I'm very proud of that. Before that, I was a chief executive of what's now AFR, the Animal and Plant Health Agency, and there I was responsible for the field response to a number of animal disease emergencies. And

again, that was very challenging but worthwhile work. So I enjoyed doing that very much too. And what now? Oh, well, I'm not going to hang my boots up just yet, I don't think. So I'm already appointed as a board member for a new body government's created to get a grip on the use of large data sets and artificial intelligence. And I think that will be very interesting, you know, from a regulatory and wider perspective. And I'll see what else comes my way. Dame Lenny Stacey, very best of luck with it. Definitely not retirement, eh? No.

Thank you. Thank you. Now, we've all heard of PMT, premenstrual tension, and a significant number of us will have suffered from it. What is not so familiar is a condition known as PMDD, or premenstrual dysphoric disorder which is suffered by around five percent of us and can lead to severe depression anxiety and changes in personality. Well there's a new study at Liverpool Women's Hospital looking at new treatments for the condition. It's led by

Paula Briggs a consultant in reproductive and sexual health at Southport and Ormskirk Hospital, NHS Trust. And there's Sam, who suffers from PMDD. They both join us from Liverpool. Sam, what sort of symptoms do you have? So it varies, really. I mean, obviously, one of the biggest symptoms are that it's severe mood changes. You know, there are times where, you know, the smallest thing could happen and it would make me start crying. I will take myself off just because I'm quite an outgoing person. But during that time of the month, it's just, I'm a completely different person. But then there's physical things as well, extreme fatigue, muscle pain, joint aches, headaches.

You know, the list goes on, really. And what happened, Sam, when you saw your GP about it? I wasn't believed. It was probably about a two-year battle until I was taken seriously um because I had moved away for university um and then it wasn't really until I moved back to Liverpool until anybody took me seriously but I was tracking my symptoms for months um and I knew that um I didn't I wasn't bipolar I knew it wasn't depression. And obviously there can be symptoms of it. My mood can change, but I knew it was hormone-based.

Paula, how common are those kind of symptoms? We know about 40% of women have some form of premenstrual syndrome. PMDD is severe end of the spectrum. It's actually an American terminology. And I think it's good in as much as women now identify with the diagnosis. I think, as Sam said, it's very difficult to be taken seriously if the person that you see doesn't believe that the condition exists and many women are misdiagnosed with other mental health problems. What causes it, Paula? It is due, we think, to ovulation and the production of progesterone and one of its metabolites called allopregnanolone.

So it occurs in the second half of the cycle, which is known as the luteal half of the cycle. And sorry, I was going to say symptoms are relieved with menstruation. How long would you say it has actually been recognised as a condition in itself, separate from the other syndromes that we know about? Well, the less severe end of the spectrum. There's been work looking for the cause and for a cure for, I think, at least 30 years. So in specialist areas, there is recognition of the condition and I think what's really important is that symptoms follow a cycle and the history is therefore very important because some women have very severe psychological symptoms they may become suicidal or violent whereas most of the

time they're completely normal. Sam I know that you had friends who got so worried about you, they thought you ought to be sectioned. Why? What prompted that? I just, I think alongside not being believed by doctors, I mean, knowing something was wrong, but not completely knowing what it was. And I just, you know, I just took myself off a lot of the time and I would be crying for days on end. And then two days later, I'll be perfectly fine because I would have come on. But at that time, I didn't really recognize what it was.

And it wasn't until I think I basically had a really big blowout with all of them. I just wasn't myself and they sat me down and said, something's happening to you, this isn't you. And that was when I went to the doctor and kind of had that aha moment of, OK, now I know what it is, but what can I do? And then the next time I went to go see a doctor, I was just back at square one. That doctor didn't believe me.

How surprising, Paula, is it that if people have known about it for 30 years, there are doctors who don't seem to know about it? I think it's very difficult in general practice to know about everything. Were you offered treatment, Sam, at any point um not then no it was um so whilst i was at university it was pretty much two years of um they i wouldn't even be referred to um therapy or anything like that i think i was having a bit of butting heads with them um so you know there are different ways of managing this condition we can use hormones specific pills with a certain type of progestogen called drosperinone which

prevents fluid retention and so is less likely to induce pre-menstrual syndrome type symptoms sometimes we use a hormonal entry-train system and override the woman's menstrual cycle. So it's basically inhibiting her cycle or we use drugs called GnRH analogues, which completely shut down the cycle. And in addition to that, we've used drugs like Prozac, so selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, because we recognised actually that neurotransmitters like serotonin and also GABA are very important in this condition and the drug which we are trialling interacts with the GABA receptor and it's called isoallopregnanolone so it blocks the effect of allopregnanolone which I mentioned earlier. So Sam what has helped you in the end? So when I

realized that you know I would have to kind of go out and find my own treatments and I went straight on to social media and you know to see if there are any support groups out there and I found one which has just helped me so much there are so many women on there who you know my story is not unique there's thousands of women on there who were you know at the start of their journey trying to get help not being believed and this group of ladies have given me like meal plans exercises different meditation things different natural remedies that can help you feel a little bit better or you can just write a long post and say I'm feeling like this and you have that support there. And Paula what advice would you give to

anyone listening this morning who recognises the symptoms that Sam's described may have been to a doctor who hasn't really known about it what should she do? She should ask to be referred to a specialist centre. So we have our trial at Liverpool Women's but there's also a centre in Stoke and in London and throughout the country there are experts who deal with women with PMS. Well Paula Briggs and Sam thank you both very much indeed for being with us and we would like to hear from you if you have had these kind of symptoms, do let us know about it and let us know how they were dealt with. Now, still to come in today's programme,

Top Girls at the National Theatre. How has Carol Churchill's play set at the height of the Thatcher era survived the test of time? And the serial, the third episode of The Citadel. Now, on Friday's programme, Jane will be discussing what are known as special guardianship orders. They're put in place when a child who can't live with its parents is placed with another member of the family. And again, we'd like to hear from you if you are or were a special guardian

to a child. What sort of support have you had? How did you manage the relationship and what might have made things easier for you? You can get in touch with us through the contact page on the Woman's Hour website or, of course, you can always tweet at BBC Woman's Hour. And don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. You may have missed yesterday's discussion about women

in Sudan who are leading the revolution there, or on Monday our report on why women in the Republic of Ireland are still travelling to England for an abortion, despite the change in the law there. Now, it's 50 years ago today since a 21-year-old Northern Irish woman was elected as the youngest ever female MP to go to Westminster. She was Bernadette Devlin. Now, of course, somewhat superseded by Mary Black, who was 20 when she was elected in 2015. Well, Devlin was a Catholic whose maiden speech was described as electrifying by the conservative Norman St. Stephen. Here, Devlin talks to RTE about her success at the 1969 by-election. I'm not surprised in the least and highly delighted because these are votes of a different

nature. They're not votes for an election, but votes of solidarity for the people of Ulster, not simply a group of the people's democracy and we have shown that we are not a small group of educated hooligans we are the people of ulster who demand our rights well when benedict evelyn arrived in westminster her election was said to be a seismic political event i'm joined joined by Dr Margaret Ward, an historian and honorary senior lecturer at Queen's University, Belfast. Margaret, why was it seen as seismic? Good morning, Jenny.

Well, first of all, if you think about 1969, how many women were active in political life? The reason for her being elected as a unity candidate was that the vote had always been split and unionists had dominated what was essentially a Catholic constituency. And so they had got together and agreed Bernadette as the unity candidate,

but really felt because she was a young woman that it was symbolic that she would be elected to Westminster, but she wouldn't really do very much, whereas, as we know, she was somebody of deep political convictions and was determined that when she got there, she would speak, as she said, on behalf of the have-nots, both Catholic and Protestant. And she was very determined to put that socialist, non-sectarian line and defied all conventions by speaking, as you said, in her maiden speech. Immediately she got to Westminster. She wasn't supposed to, as a maiden speaker, speak on anything controversial, but she immediately

talked about the position of Catholics in the bog side and the brutality they had suffered on behalf of the police. Her time as an MP was somewhat fraught with controversy. She received a nine-month prison sentence not long after her election for taking part in sectarian riots in Londonderry. How did people react to her then on both sides of the divide? Well I wouldn't call the battle of the Bogside a sectarian riot. What it was was the people of Derry erecting barriers to keep out the police because the police had come in and attacked people. Samuel de Veni died of his injuries having been battened by the police as he sat in his home.

So she had been part of that defence force and we still see that iconic you're now entering free dairy wall mural that exists. So she was given a six-month prison sentence. As she said, Parliament was in recess at that time, it was the summer, the only way she said she could defend her constituents was by taking part in that act of solidarity. Obviously, attitudes to her depended on your attitudes to that kind of resistance, and she certainly didn't have unionist support, but she had very strong support amongst other people in the country. Now, in 1971, unmarried, she had her daughter. Why did that cost her political support?

I'm not sure if it cost her political support. She'd been re-elected in 1970, and then in 1974, when there was a general election, the SDLP political party had been formed and it didn't abide by the convention of maintaining one nationalist candidate. It stood everywhere. It said to build the party. So the nationalist vote was split and Bernadette lost her seat because of that I think rather than because of losing political support. So obviously conservative nationalists voted for the SDLP and others voted for her. But there would always be that political difference within nationalism.

She represented a more radical part and she stood in Westminster as an independent socialist. So yes, it was something that women tended to hide away if they had a child outside of marriage or the child was adopted. She was unusual in being full of integrity that she had a child that she,'t ashamed of having, I think, far ahead of her time, really. In 1981, she and her husband survived an assassination attempt. What effect did that have on her and her desire to be involved in politics? Well, it must have been a most catastrophic act. She and her husband were badly shot, you know, barely escaped with their lives, but shot in front of their three small children as well.

And she talks about the fact that the paratroopers were outside of their house, a very isolated house in the countryside in Tyrone, that she'd actually, when she'd come home from a meeting, had said to them, you know, have you no homes to go to, had gone to bed, gone to sleep, and then had, you know, been woken up later on by the gunmen coming in, who were later arrested, they were loyalists. She talks about the fact that she and her husband were then flown to Musgrave Military Hospital, the only civilians ever to be there. And she felt it was because to stop her from making those allegations of collusion, which has still never been proven, but which are still obviously there. quiet for a while but she also had three small children to look after but she she had been active with the Irish Republican Socialist Party she had stood for Europe before that she actually stood

for the Dáil as a candidate in a couple of elections and then later on and I think very presciently she was a founder of the South Tyrone Empowerment Programme, which we call STEP, which is a rights-based organisation that promotes the rights of the migrant community, which has come to the north of Ireland in the last couple of decades and very much part of the new workforce. And STEP was one of the first to promote their rights and to try and integrate them within a very conservative society. Margaret Ward, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now in 1982, a rather startling new play by Carol Churchill was performed at the Royal Court Theatre in London. It's now at the National

Theatre for the first time. It's called Top Girls and opens with a fantasy scene where a group of famous female characters from the past are brought together for a dinner party by Marlene, a deeply ambitious woman who's bought into the Thatcherite era and is running a women's employment agency. As the play progresses, we meet her and her sister Joyce, who's stayed at their home in the country where she's raising a child, Angie. The third scene of Top Girls is set in the office of the employment agency. On the day, Marlene finds out she's been given the role of managing director. Mrs Kidd, the wife of Howard, who's been passed over for this promotion, confronts her. Howard's not in today.

Isn't he? He's feeling poorly. I didn't know. I'm sorry to hear that. and confront her. instead of Howard. He hasn't been at all well all weekend. He hasn't slept for three nights. I haven't slept. I'm sorry to hear that, Mrs Kidd. Has he thought of taking sleeping pills? It's very hard when someone has worked all these years. Business life is full of little setbacks. I'm sure Howard knows that. He'll bounce back after a day or two. We all bounce back. If you could see him, you'd know what I'm talking about. What's it going to do to him, working for a woman? I think if it was a man, he'd get over it as something normal. I think he's going to have to get over it. You're going to have to be very careful how you handle

him. He's very hurt. Well, naturally, I will be tactful and pleasant to him. You don't start pushing someone around. I'll consult him over any decisions affecting his department, but that's no different, Mrs Kidd, from any of my other colleagues. I think it is different because he's a man. Well, earlier I spoke to Lucy Black, who plays Marlene's sister Joyce, Liv Hill, who plays Angie, and Catherine Kingsley, who's Marlene. How would she describe her character? Marlene is a very complex character, but doesn't really show the complexities particularly. She comes from quite a tough background. And I think her desire to escape her background is profound. And because it coincided with the rise of Thatcherism, I think she was very much into individualism and she would do anything to escape her background and therefore she ran away to London and made

something of herself and I think she's very proud of that but with that is a sacrifice. I'm not even sure if Marlene herself considers herself to be any kind of a victim I think she just thinks that she has made a success of her life. We've just heard that scene where a wife comes to the Top Girls agency furious at a woman having overtaken her husband and heartbroken about it. How does that scene now feel like a period piece to you? Well it's interesting that you've picked up on that because when I was rehearsing that as a woman in 2019, I was very conscious of the fact that Marlene's very hard with her and very dismissive and tells her to go away in a slightly ruder manner without any sort of empathy or kind of feeling of regret about the way she's treated another woman. I think Carol and Lindsay Turner, our director, were very keen for me to play that part as if she doesn't care. How dare she come in, this other lady,

and tell her that she doesn't deserve the job? Quite rightly. You know, why shouldn't she be a managing director above a male colleague? But equally, the thing that sort of pings out to me most about those office scenes and the way that the women interact with the other women are the way they speak to each other.

And there does seem to be quite a callous, uncaring nature behind it. And I think from a 2019 point of view, it does seem really quite harsh. Now, Lucy, the final scene is between you as Marlene's sister and Marlene and Angie, the daughter. How would you describe the relationship between the two of them, Marlene and Joyce? Well, we've talked about, you know, our background, and I think it is apparent in the writing

that we were very close as children and we didn't come from a very easy household and we probably were a little team together. But as we've gone into our teenage years, we've become different people. You know, Marlene's a go-getter. I didn't do too well at school. I married young.

I stayed local. I've not moved from the village that we grew up in. So I think maybe in essence they're not that different, I stayed local. I've not moved from the village that we grew up in. So I think maybe in essence they're not that different, but life has made them become very different, if that makes sense. Now Liv, as the daughter Angie, it is your first stage role, and it's a considerable role. How would you describe Angie? When I first read it, the thing that struck a chord

that struck me deeply is that she has a deep-rooted sense of fear of rejection, basically. It's pretty obvious, and I think most of us probably do, whether we know it or not. But for her, it's exaggerated. And also, she has a desperate need for validation

from her aunt and love from her aunt, love from her aunt because I think she knows that she doesn't fit into this world and she's trying to find her place and she's always felt a sense of being not an outcast but, you know, not fitting in. You also played Ruby in the television drama Three Girls without any formal training. Yeah.

How difficult was that it was my first job so I think it was just really exciting to do it and I was just like oh my god I got my first role I started when I was 15 I went to this place called the Nottingham Actors Studio which is now called Talent First in Nottingham and they were like night classes and I went there for about six months and then brilliant brilliant training and for free as well and I went there for about six months. And then brilliant, brilliant training, and for free as well. And then from there, agents were invited to a showcase that we all did, and that was when I was 16, and then later that summer, I got to audition for Three Girls.

I mean, that job was just the most brilliant job I could have ever had as my first job. And you're now all of 19, and you have the National Theatre behind you. What has that been like? Because presumably they've trained you really hard. Yes, I mean because I didn't go to any formal drama training, I wasn't taught technique, how to project the voice, how to body intentions and all that. I feel like I've had a three-year drama class course or whatever in a couple of weeks. The National have been amazing.

I had voice training, breathing techniques, and then with Lindsay, she's someone who... Lindsay, the director. Sorry, yeah, the director. She's very academic, which we also didn't get up on its feet for about two weeks for the rehearsal process. We were just talking about intentions, event planning, which I just found

phenomenal I've never had that sort of training before and I can't believe I've never approached a character the way I have with Angie so it's been really fulfilling now Catherine the first scene the famous dinner party yeah hosted by Marlene with women From History. It's an iconic scene. What does it communicate, would you say, about the lives of top women? I suppose the choices that they've made, whether they are choices that they want to make or are forced to make, the sacrifices, the way that they endure their lives, whatever the life that is thrown at them.

It's quite amazing to sit around that dinner table and listen to these stories. And the fact that Marlene has invited these women that aren't necessarily the most obvious of choices, but a lot of people won't have heard of these women. We've got Pope Joan, who was a female Pope in the ninth century, Isabella Byrd, the Victorian traveller, Lady Nijo from Japan and Patient Griselda and Gret who was painted by Bruegel who's an imaginary lady and it's an exquisite scene to be a

part of. Much drink is consumed during it. How easy is it to develop getting a little drunk during that scene? I find it quite easy. You're not drinking, really. I know that. As the drink is drunk, the tongue gets looser and the stories become more vivid and people start to reveal more.

In fact, the only character that doesn't reveal is Marlene, who I play, and she reveals nothing about her life. And when somebody asks me if I have a sister, the answer is yes, in fact, and that's it. Thank you very much. Now, I know Carol Churchill came to some of the rehearsals. How involved was she? She was very welcomed,

and I think any level of involvement she wanted would have been met with open arms. But I think she was quite reserved. Yeah, I think she felt that she didn't want to start giving people notes without you know speaking to our director and doing it yeah through the appropriate channels no she wasn't I think she was so generous actually just really delightful and if any of us had a question she would be there to help and answer as best she could and her and Lindsay have a really good relationship.

Yeah. They've collaborated before. So it would be a question of Lindsay just sort of throwing it open to Carol and asking if there was anything she wanted to add, you know, if she had any notes and it was anything that she did was fantastic, wasn't it? Really helpful. And Liv, what do you reckon she might have made of the young woman who had never heard of her?

Oh, no, I i mean she doesn't know that oh no she does um no she's just the most wonderful woman ever yeah she's so down to earth which i know a lot of writers would probably be and now i'm going to study her because i never studied her at a level i know this text in particular, but everyone I talked to before I did this, all the actors I know are just like, she is a living legend. The play obviously was written in the Thatcher era. To what extent, Lucy, would you say the politics just feel dated?

I think sadly the politics don't feel dated in the sense that Thatcher divided the country, and we are living in a completely divided time now. The stuff that Joyce talks about with Marlene, there's a sense of, well, you lot are all right down in London, you know, you lot that get to go to America and have fancy cars, but the prospects for where Joyce is in Suffolk, there are no job prospects.

It's very difficult and I think that, I just feel that's the case now. I feel that not to get into Brexit but a lot of the country feel forgotten and so I think in a way it's very resonant now. Lucy Black, Catherine Kingsley and Liv Hall and Top Girls will be at the National Theatre until the 20th of July. Now lots of you got in touch about your experience of PMDD.

Jonathan emailed us to say thank you for covering PMDD. My partner has been suffering this for many years and was prescribed antidepressants. We managed to self-diagnose via Google. Life was hell for both of us during the downswing, but by carefully plotting periods on a calendar, we're able to predict and prepare. My partner has now been able to wean herself off the antidepressants, and life is better for the both of us.

Nicola emailed, I'm currently three months post total hysterectomy as a result of PMDD. It's taken me more than 15 years of treatment to get to this point, years of disbelief and a huge effect on my personal life and career. Work needs to be done with GPs. They're the gatekeepers to specialist advice. They need advice and training and need to accept what women are saying

about this condition and believe them. Fiona tweeted, Oh, good God, listening to Women's Hour and getting more and more angry, hearing all the treatments for extreme PMT that GPs aren't offering because they don't believe women. They've no idea how much of one's life gets wasted. And Nina emailed,

I only discovered last year that I had PMDD after struggling with the symptoms for nearly six years. I thought I was having a mental breakdown, but within a few weeks it would pass and I'd be fine, only for it to come back again. I would convince myself that I was unhappy because of various things, including my relationships or my job. I ended around four relationships because of this. It caused intense paranoia and anxiety. It can be so destructive and it can rip lives apart. Well, thank you for all your tweets and emails. Now, tomorrow I'll be talking to Molly Case. In 2013, she became famous all over the nation after she performed her poem, Nursing the Nation, at the Royal College of Nursing Congress.

Well, she's now written a book about her nursing experience, and it's called How to Treat People. We'll be talking tomorrow. We'll also be discussing a new revival of Chekhov's play Three Sisters. Join me tomorrow, two minutes past ten, if you can. Bye-bye. Oi, you. While you're here, have a listen to this, if you can. Bye-bye. Oi, you. While you're here, have a listen to this, would you?

Forest 4i4. An environmental thriller for BBC Sounds. I'm so sorry. Meet Pan. Oh, I did. She lives a few centuries from now, after a data crash that wiped out most records of life. So when she finds an old recording of a rainforest,

she has no idea what it is. Forest 404, nine part thriller, nine part talk, nine part soundscape. Starring Pearl Mackie, Tanya Moody and Pippa Haywood with theme music by Bonobo. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. Subscribe now. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.