Woman's Hour - Toxic Town, Women in counter terrorism policing, Climbing Everest

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

It's been reported that more than 1,000 Syrians have been killed in the past few days in clashes between security forces and loyalists of ousted President Bashar al-Assad, and revenge killings that followed. Syria's interim leader has appealed for unity, and hundreds of people have reportedly fled their homes in the coastal provinces of Latakia and Tartus - strongholds of Assad support. Witnesses have described scenes of looting and mass killings, including of women and children. Nuala McGovern is joined by the BBC’s Middle East Correspondent Lina Sinjab in Damascus.Inside Counter Terrorism Policing is a new podcast featuring five women working in a range of roles across the UK who have shared their story with the aim of inspiring others to consider a career in national security and policing. We hear from Vicki Evans, Senior National Coordinator for Counter Terrorism Policing for the UK, and an officer we are calling ‘Emma’, who will explain the challenges of her role as a handler of covert sources.If you've been to Dublin - you might have across the statue to Molly Malone, the very famous Dubliner. You might know the song Cockles and Mussels, which commemorates her. Busker Tilly Cripwell has been campaigning for her to be treated with more respect and to be elevated to stop passers by from groping her breasts - for 'good luck' - a 'tradition' for some.In 1975, Japanese mountaineer Junko Tabei became the first woman to reach the top of Mount Everest, battling through avalanches, altitude sickness and the changing elements. Since then, over 800 women have climbed Everest, yet they still only make up an estimated 12% of all climbers to tackle the mountain. Rebecca Stephens is the first British woman to summit Everest and tells us more about Junko.Have you been watching Toxic Town? The Netflix series tells the story of a town’s toxic waste case. It follows the real-life battle of families in Corby who gave birth to children with limb differences in the 1980s and 1990s and their search for answers and justice. In 2009, after a long legal battle the High Court ruled Corby Borough Council was negligent in managing the waste. And in 2010 families affected won a financial settlement. Nuala speaks to Tracey Taylor, one of the mothers portrayed in the series, and Annabel Jones, one of the executive producers.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music music, radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, we'll go to Damascus, Syria to hear from my colleague, Lina Sinjab.

There are reports of killings in escalated violence over the weekend. As she will also tell us about the current situation for women. Also today, How a Podcast hopes to recruit women for counter-terrorism policing roles. This comes at a time of mistrust in police forces by many women across the UK. Also I spent part of my weekend watching Toxic Town on Netflix. It tells the compelling story of families fighting for justice after children in the town of Corby were born with birth defects believed to be caused by industrial pollution. We're going to speak to one of the mothers of that story.

And we'll also be in Dublin. One female busker is campaigning and singing to stop the tourists and passerbys from rubbing the breasts of the statue of Molly Malone. It has become a controversial custom in the city. We'll hear what she is trying to do to change it. Now if there's anything you'd like to comment on that you hear on the program you can text us 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100444 but let us begin in Syria where it has been reported that more than a thousand have been killed over the past few days in clashes between security forces and loyalists of the ousted President Bashar al-Assad with revenge killings following according to these reports.

Syria's interim leader has appealed for unity. Hundreds of people have reportedly fled their homes. These are in the coastal provinces such as the northwest of Latakia and Tartus, which were strongholds of Assad support. We're also hearing eyewitness accounts of some of the scenes of looting and killings, which included women and children. I'm joined by our BBC Middle East correspondent Lina Sinjab as I mentioned in the capital Damascus. Lina, good to have you back with us. This violence started on Thursday. I mentioned the northwest cities of Latakia and there's Jabal, I guess, and Tartus. Can you explain what you understand is happening? Well, there are remnants of the Assad regime who refuse to give up their weapons, refuse to surrender to the new authorities.

These are the ex-security officers who have blood on their hands. They are called for justice because of the torture and killing of, you know, thousands of Syrians during the rule of Bashar al-Assad who refused to do any reconciliation. And they formed like a sort of rebellion in the mountains and they've ambushed the new security, you know, officers. They've killed dozens of them. This is when the government sent reinforcement to the coastal cities, but unfortunately some of the factions who joined forces were accompanied by foreign fighters, were accompanied by angry civilians as well, and they themselves, some of the factions, are reported to have conducted violations. They've looted Alawite homes. You know, families have been shot dead in

their homes, including women and children. Human rights groups, various ones, like documented at least 830 civilians killed, including women and children. Now, the total number of the people killed throughout the past three or four days have mounted to almost 1300 with nearly 500 of them, you know, fighters killed on both sides between the official security and remnants of the Assad regime. And with some of these figures coming from the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, the BBC has not been able to independently verify those figures. The BBC has not been able to independently verify those figures. But we do know that there is eyewitness testimony, for example,

about this horrendous violence that was taking place. And I suppose what really strikes me is how different it is compared to the hopes that you had as well when I spoke to you a number of months ago after Assad was ousted. Well, I still have these hopes as a person, as a citizen of Syria. But of course, I do have all the concerns over the safety and security and the future of the country. You know, these violations, the killing of the Alawites based on their religion is shocking.

It shocked the whole country. It, you know, forced many people to take to the streets yesterday. There was a demonstration in central Damascus by ordinary citizens calling for justice, calling for de-escalation, condemning violence, condemning sectarian and hatred crimes. But also the government acknowledged that there are members among

them who have committed crimes. The interim president came out and delivered two speeches in the course of two, three days and formed a committee from judges, lawyers, and security officers or army officers to investigate the killing. He also called up some of the, you know, families of those who've been killed from the Alawite community to express condolences, something that many found as like a good gesture. But also he formed another committee to preserve civil peace that mainly dedicated to work with the families of the coastal side. I mean, this is a very delicate situation. The Assad regime for years have been warning the Alawites that, you know, the Islamists,

the jihadists are coming to kill you, and what happened proved their fears. And for this new government, they have to work hard to prove the opposite, because that's the message that they came with. They came with a message of tolerance, a message of unity, a message of building a country that is based on law and equal rights for every citizen. And Alawites that you refer to there, they are a sect of Shia Islam that is a sect that President Bashar al-Assad belonged to and hence some of his warnings in advance of this. There have also been disturbing reports, you may have seen this Lina, I'd be curious for your thoughts on it, that women were reportedly told to walk naked before being shot dead.

Not verified as I understand it. How do you understand it? Well I think that's not something I've heard of at all, and I don't think it's verified. I think there are, you know, one of the issues that is really troubling, you know, causing troubles in Syria is the vast majority of accounts that is spreading fake news, that is spreading news of hatred, of inciting anger and fear, and spreading a lot of disturbances among

people. There is a Syrian group called Verify, and they've been working relentlessly over the past two, three months to check on all these fake news. And in the past two, three days, the amounts on Twitter, Facebook, Telegram, thousands of accounts that are inciting hatred and more violence that we should be careful of also falling into that trap. There are atrocities that have been conducted and we are, as journalists on the ground,

we're really trying to talk to families to verify for ourselves the number, the hundreds have been killed. There is a group in addition to the London based Syrian Observatory, the Syrian Network for Human Rights, but also the civil peace group in Homs. They've listed the names of those who were killed name by name. So these are the accounts that we try to verify and publish what they say after trying to verify for ourselves so that we are we try to do our best in giving accurate news. I understand. Is it possible to know, I know there's a flash

point at the moment, but how women's lives are being affected at this moment in Syria. I mean, you mentioned some hope still that you have for a better future. I do have, you know, a strong belief in Syrian women and as a Syrian, but also as a journalist observing what's happening. They are very strong in voicing their opinion. They are out and about. The stand yesterday was all organized by

women, random women who got together to organize this stand. And, you know, they're voicing their demands. Whenever there's something wrong, they are the first to come out and say no to it. But even in the past few months in the political movement, you know, there was the national dialogue that, you know, has been widely criticized because of the wrong, you know, there was the national dialogue that, you know, has been widely criticized because of the wrong, you know, misorganizing. But however, there was a representation of women between 20 to 30 percent of the people who attended were women. So I have strong hopes and beliefs in their power, in their ability to voice their rights and fight for it. Because what we've often found with points of conflict wherever they are in the world,

it can be women and children that are the most affected being those vulnerable members. I mean we're seeing or hearing should I say local residents describing from the weekend these scenes of looting and mass killings, including of children. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this happened in the Alwade villages. Some of these fighters went into and after looting, they shot all families in their homes, including women and children. But throughout the list of names that we've seen, the majority of the ones who have been killed are men. You know, regardless, it should be condemned. Any killing of civilians should be condemned. But we're not sure exactly about the number of women and children who were

killed. However, in all conflicts throughout the last 13 years of the war, the number of children who have been killed, you know, is in thousands. The number of children who have been killed, you know, is in thousands. The number of women who have been killed or imprisoned or tortured is in tens of thousands. So women always pay the highest price. But what I can see on the ground, you know, that women are still proactive and, you know, very strongly opinionated about their rights, about their role, about their presence in the political sphere, in the social sphere. So I do see that Syrian women will not be silent about their rights. Thank you very much, Lina Sinjab, speaking to me this morning from Damascus. We'll check

in with you again in the future as we follow this story. Next up, I want to hear about jobs that you may not have considered before. I learned about them in a new podcast called Inside Counterterrorism Policing. It features five women working in a range of roles across the UK who shared their story with the aim of inspiring others to consider a career in national security and policing. Now for some of the women involved, it's the first time they've spoken publicly about the work that they do and for their safety, their identities have been protected for the podcast and also today I am joined by one of the women who have taken part in the series, Emma, not her real name, who will explain her role as,

here's her title, Handler of Covert Sources. We also have with us Vicki Evans, Senior National Coordinator for Counterterrorism Policing for the UK. Welcome to you both. Vicki, let me get to you first. Some of the background about why this podcast was produced. So across policing, like lots of public sector organisations, we're always looking for new ways to reach audiences, to reach the public and organisations, we're always looking for new ways to reach audiences, to reach the public and highlight the work we do and the challenges we face. Now that's particularly difficult in counter-terrorism policing and national security because it's

really difficult to talk openly about a lot of the work that we do, particularly because sometimes for security reasons, but also for the safety of our teams and we recognise podcasts are a fantastic way of connecting with that human conversation, giving extra insight and we thought it was a really good way to highlight the outstanding work by some amazing women on International Policing Day and hopefully people will listen and be inspired to consider careers with us. I found it quite gripping listening to it, I have to say listening to your story as well, Emma. But you're working to attract women into these roles, Vicky?

Definitely, I mean we're always looking to attract different people from all sorts of backgrounds into counter-terrorism policing. But often counter-terrorism policing perhaps isn't a career that women would naturally think about, so we wanted to highlight the vast array of opportunities both in operational roles and in enabling services. I did have a look and you have this range of roles that's already up there shall we say on your pages as well but you know some listening will say there have been so many questions raised about the effectiveness of police especially there's been this loss of trust in the police by women. You'll remember this

just last month that Commissioner Mark Rowley said that policing is now in a hopeless position after a High Court ruling on vetting. He said there's now no mechanism to get rid of Met officers who are not fit to keep their vetted status, including those who cannot be trusted to work with women. I mean, what would you say to somebody who has that mistrust? I completely understand, given everything that's happened, why people would feel that way. And Commissioner Rowley has obviously highlighted concerns

around some of the recent events. Our hope is with these podcasts that we demonstrate that we have really talented, successful women who are thriving in our teams in counter-terrorism policing and give people that reassurance that there are opportunities for them. We know that a huge amount of work has been done, not just in the Met but across policing, to drive change and we are absolutely continuing those efforts. But what I would say is this hopefully

shines a light on some of the great opportunities and the inspiring females that we have, changes driven by bringing in different people with different thoughts and perspectives and passion and we are absolutely committed to that in counter-terrorism policing. And I will come back to that but let me jump over to Emma, a member of police staff at Counter Terrorism Policing, who's taken part in the podcast. You are a handler of covert sources. What does that mean? So I'm responsible for the management of the brave people who choose to report on national security threat and risks.

Above anything else, I manage their welfare, safety and protection. And this starts from recruiting them and then developing them and directing their activities into spaces of national security concern and managing the associated risks. So let me think basically there's an area whether it's a certain part of the country or a certain I I don't know, community, whatever it might be, you need to find people who are going to tell you what's happening in there. Yeah, so we look for people who can give police unique access into the spaces that we can't go. And we look for anyone and everyone who can help us do that. How do you do that?

I'm sure you can appreciate there's some of the intricate details of how we go about that we can't discuss. Give me broad strokes. Yeah, it's it will all depend on the threat. So that could genuinely be anyone and everyone. And people might not know that they have people within their remit that we're interested in. But there's no sort of specific skills or experiences that someone needs to help us. It's all about getting their buy-in and understanding what they can help us report on.

I'm fascinated by this. I'm wondering how you get the buy-in. When you spot the person, how do you know that's a potential person who could be somebody to help you, to inform really, right? Yeah. So it can be tricky to find that person and it's a long process, I think. How long? It can vary. It could be really quick or really long. I think the point of CT is that we're in it for the long game.

CT counterterrorism. Correct, yeah. We're in it for the long game. So it can take sometimes a really long time. The sources work really hard to gain access to the unique area of national security that we might need access to that police just can't get any other means and to have someone authorized as a source we work within really strict legal parameters it's got to be

proportionate, ethical, so asking someone to be a source is not something we do lightly and there's always got to be a reason for us to be in their life. Ethical is an interesting word because as I was listening to your podcast, I mean the risks that could be involved for that recruit, for example, and also for you by extension. Yeah, it can be the nature of counterterrorism is serious and dangerous, but the bigger picture is working with people who can provide that access to intelligence that we can't get perhaps by any other means is worth the risk. You had a convoluted road to it, would that be fair? Yeah, I definitely knew I wanted to work within policing and I felt being a civilian...

But even before that? Within criminology? Yes. Yeah, so I started within criminology, I really enjoyed my degree and I wanted something that was going to be meaningful and Impactive and I felt like within counterterrorism. I would be part of the most important efforts to keep the country safe And as I was on your website this morning, you know, you kind of It brings it into stark relief Should I say when you the first thing that comes up is terror, threat, substantial. So this is something of course that is so much part

of the day-to-day living, I suppose, that you're involved in. But day-to-day, I mean, this is the other part that is very compelling, is that your loved ones don't know what you do. That's right. Yeah, they aren't aware of my role. How difficult is that? It's easier than it sounds. Really? Because if I limit what I share, that's only going to help them because every time I'd go to work, they'd be terrified for me.

And there's no need to be. There's intense training. And there's a really great team behind me and my colleagues before we go and sit in front of people who we ask to help the police and provide information. So I can limit what I share which also protects me but it protects the sources who decide to work with us. But what about after a really difficult day and I can only imagine, I imagine no two days are the same, I imagine you have this variety, I imagine you have some very, very tough days.

I don't know, because something can kick off, as we know, even with terror threats, for example. And you can't tell anyone. No. And I think the focus on teamwork is huge within our department. And we all get on extremely well. And it's one of those departments where you really

do need to be open. And it's a safe place to say when you're not okay. Something that is triggering for me might not be triggering for my colleague. So being able to have a great team provides that support where I won't be sharing at home why my day might have been so bad. And coming back to your job again, there was one line that struck me which was like job again, there was one line that struck me which was like a recruit for example could be that everything they are saying could be masking what they are not saying. Yeah. How do you unpick that? I mean I'm just wondering your communication skills

must be second to none. Yeah I think that's the if anyone was considering being a handler it would be your active listening and communication skills. And often I might work with people who are scared to share the true reporting, and so it's creating a space for them to be completely honest and share without prejudice. And so just being even down to like envy cues, like being open with that kind of like nonverbal cues, so being open with my body language and maintaining eye contact and just making sure I'm being the person that they feel they can confide in. You know I was thinking of you because of course there was that press

conference between President Zelensky and President Trump which I thought the body language was so stark between both of them I was immediately thinking what you would make of that but that's another program perhaps. But are you very manipulative? No, I wouldn't say I'm manipulative. Would you not have to be? Persuasive I think is a better word and I think the main point is just stressing that without it sounding dramatic perhaps there is no other means of getting the reporting that we need without the sources who bravely come on board and work with us and they are the unsung heroes they will never get the kind of publication they deserve because of the nature of this work so that makes it worth it. Do they get paid a lot of money? The ins and outs of how

we run them I'm sure you can appreciate we can't discuss but you know some people feel it's they are morally obliged to do this and again it's me asking those questions in such a way to be open of if you had the opportunity to stop a terrorist attack how would you feel about that? So Emma is one of the jobs, fascinating, that she doing a cool job, as you called it, which you kept coming back to. But I suppose we spoke in part about institutional misogyny as it manifests itself in some aspects within police services and we do know there is this push to improve recruitment and retention and progression of female staff. What reassurances would you give to any woman who might be considering taking on a role like this? Because Emma is

in a civilian position, even though it's within policing. So Emma's in a police staff position, but some of our future podcasts you'll hear from officers who again are outstanding females doing really difficult jobs. I think the reassurance I'd give women considering a career in policing is firstly as we've talked about the huge amount of work that has been done and continues to be done by policing. We want to everything we can to eradicate all forms of discrimination in policing and as senior leaders we're absolutely committed to that. Right now in counterterrorism policing 30% of the people working in counterterrorism policing are women and when it comes to

some of our most senior roles the people who lead our regional teams we've got the highest number of female leaders in those positions that we've ever had. So we are continuing to demonstrate our commitment to supporting women in these roles through our actions and bringing people through, but also creating a supportive environment where challenge is welcomed and we bring in people with diverse thoughts and ideas to help us build a really strong culture. Does being a woman make a difference? I'm thinking particularly a role like Emma's approaching people.

So I think the reality is diversity in our workforce in all senses, different thoughts, people from different backgrounds is hugely beneficial because the more difference we have in how people approach things, the different skills, and that's not just about somebody who's female but across the board, people coming from different walks of life with different experience enrich our workforce and make these incredibly challenging roles

effective and efficient and ultimately helps keep the public safe. Back to you Emma, what does TV and film get wrong about you? Your sort of role, that person who's like spotting somebody and trying to get them to be onside? I think the thing that they probably get right is to maybe, I think when I've watched it is sometimes it they show anyone and everyone can work with the police and I would kind of echo that is that anyone and only anyone can help the police in keeping the public safe depending on on the threat. I don't watch a huge amount of police dramas as I'm sure a lot of other police staff and officers don't because it is too much like work so downtime at home. I didn't watch a huge amount of police dramas, as I'm sure a lot of other police staff and officers don't,

because it's too much like work. So downtime at home. I didn't think it was. I thought you were going to get so annoyed by what you see. It's just like work. OK, so they're getting some of it right. Sometimes. Emma, not her real name, who is a handler of covert sources. Thank you for coming in. And Vicky Evans, Senior National Coordinator for Counterterrorism Policing for the UK. The podcast is called Inside

Counterterrorism Policing and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. I have to say I did find it really interesting to listen to Emma and her job. Thanks very much. Now if you've been to Dublin you might have come across the statue of Molly Malone. She's a very famous Dubliner for us. Was she a real person? I don't know. But my next guest probably has some thoughts on that. You may know her from the song Cockles and Muscles. It commemorates her.

I'm not going to start singing for you this morning. But there is a tradition, and I put that word tradition in inverted commas for passerbys, for tourists to rub Molly's breasts for good luck. The busker Tilly Cripwell has been campaigning for Molly to be treated with more respect and thinks she should also be elevated on ground level, street level at the moment, to be elevated to stop passerbys from groping her as Tilly describes it. Tilly welcome to the program. Thank you. Shall we describe the statue? Go ahead, what do people see? I know you sing beside her. Yes, exactly. So I've

seen a lot of the kind of behaviour that goes on around her first hand. I spend a lot of hours busking by the statue. What people, and it is usually tourists. And maybe we should say it's a woman, a low cut dress, I suppose, kind of like a corset sort of thing. She has a barrel in front of her, which is part of the song. It's street level. I don't know what she's made out of. It looks like a like a dark copper kind of, you know what I mean? Which, yes, yeah, maybe a dark, yeah, kind of weathered bronze.

But where her breasts are is actually quite shiny from where everybody's been touching her. Exactly, exactly, yeah. And that kind of represents the way that people choose to commemorate her as a statue. And people not only do that, but behave in quite a rowdy, inappropriate way around her. What have you seen?

I've seen... the other day I was actually, two days ago I was standing by the statue and a group of French men over to watch the rugby in Dublin. At first, Grape the statue did what they needed to do with her, saw me standing there next to her and came up and kind of mind--scrooping me as well and all laughed amongst themselves. That's horrendous. It was pretty bad. I let them know that I didn't feel that good about it. So it's there and you've seen this and I think I've seen you actually.

I will stop and say hello next time. But I think I've seen you actually, I will stop and say hello next time, but I think I've seen you before because that's the place that you decide to bust. But you've started a campaign and what do you want to happen? Well I would like for some permanent changes to be put in place. A lot of these changes will also mean that Molly Malone as a statue actually just mirrors how the male statues in Dublin, the majority of them are represented. So if the main thing is for her to be elevated on a higher platform, all of the female statues of which there are only five in Dublin are at street level. The majority of the male ones are not only lining the famous O'Connell

streets, but they're also on very elevated plinths. I think that an elevated plinth for Molly Malone would elevate her symbolically and kind of award her the credit that she deserves, but also reduce any kind of behavior around her and people clambering all over her. I mean do women do it as well as men? Yeah it's men, it's women. The worst thing for me is when I see parents encouraging their children to do it and you see the children's innocence telling telling them that this is something embarrassing and something that's wrong. But where their parents don't have that innocence, they've been conditioned by society to kind of treat it as this tradition in inverted commas and ignore why they might feel embarrassed or question it. And what about those that say it's just a bit of fun? You know, there is the I think there's the bull in Wall Street

that has also touched in various areas. And people just say, you know, it's a bit of a joke. It's not that serious. Was she a real person? Why does she need to be commemorated in the way that you're asking? Yeah, no, exactly. I've a lot of people do say that, and I know it happens with Juliet and Verona and lots of other statues around the world. What I respond to that is that statues are never made just to be a piece of material in the street. They're always made as a representation of something, something symbolic,

street, they're always made as a representation of something, something symbolic, often immortalizing someone who is no longer alive. So when we always see them as symbolic, how can we suddenly reduce them to a bit of metal and just a statue for the sake of taking your liberties with rubbing bad parts of them? Was she a real person? I couldn't get any definitive evidence on that. Some people talk about her being representative of street hawkers in Dublin in years gone by. There have been recent findings that she was a real person. Someone unearthed her birth and death records in a little bookshop in Hayon Wye and

those kind of proved her records. It says Mary Malone so not confirmed but it matches up with all of the data and this is another reason that I would like for a plaque to be placed next to the statue explaining, if not her concrete history, then at least her legacy and why she's such an important Irish figure. Have you written a song for your campaign? I have, yes. It went live on all major music platforms on Saturday. Do you want to give me a verse? Do you want to give me a verse? So I added two verses which are a spin off on the original well-known verses to the song.

The first one is in Dublin's Fair City. They all say she's pretty, but they choose to show it by touching her so. Her voice can still see you, but she sure wouldn't feel you if she were there beside you, if she were a lizo. Aha. Well, let's see what happens. We did meet with the council. I understand I did get a statement this morning from Dublin City Council. They say the Arts Office and Area Office have engaged with elected members and numerous public inquiries in relation to damage to the Molly Malone statue, I suppose talking about where the breasts have been rubbed. Various remedies have been considered and a report to City Council will be issued soon. Hopeful? I'm hopeful, yes.

Yeah? How was it on Saturday? Do you feel you have a lot of support? I have a lot of support. It was amazing and it really validated the whole cause itself. People were very supportive, creating amazing art forms in honour of it and kind of spurs me on to do more of that kind of musical activism and spread messages that way. Tilly Cripwell, thanks very much for joining us who is campaigning for the Molly Malone statue in Dublin to be treated with more respect. What life advice would you like to give to your children? I'm Namulanta Combo and that's the question I'm asking in the new series of my podcast,

Dear Daughter Stars. Among my guests are actor Adjoa Ando from the hit Netflix series Bridgerton. Find what you're built for. What's your unique gifting? Podcaster Audrey Akande from the Receipts podcast. Don't let anyone dim your shine. Your voice matters. And nature presenter Rae Wynn Grant. What do wild animals tell me about parenthood? Almost everything. Dear Daughters stars from the BBC World Service.

Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Now, have you been watching Toxic Town? It takes place in the former steel town of Corby, Northamptonshire, and it tells the story of the 10-year fight for justice of families living or working there, whose children were born with birth defects such as missing fingers and toes. In court against the local council it was argued that toxic airborne pollutants from the town's demolished steelworks reclamation program had harmed the unborn babies born in the 1980s

and 1990s. In 2009 there was a long legal battle at the High Court and it ruled that Corby Borough Council was found negligent in managing the waste. It also marked the first time a UK court recognised airborne pollutants could harm unborn babies. An appeal by the council was dropped and in 2010 a financial settlement was reached with the families in which the council did not admit liability. I have with me Annabel Jones, executive producer of the series on Netflix and Tracey Taylor who is one of the mums whose story features significantly in the series. Very good to have both of you with me. Thank you for joining us. Let me begin with you Annabel. I'll be with you Tracy in just a moment.

This story, how did you come across it and how difficult was it to get it on a small screen? So I was in the first lockdown of COVID and I was sitting on a park bench with my friend both wearing face masks and she is from Corby. She was born there and her family still live there and she told me this story and I was absolutely blown away. Blown away because of the scale of the this poisoning, it was you know the second biggest case of child poisoning in the UK after thalidomide and also just so surprised that I didn't know of the story, it just seemed incredible that such an important story

still was largely unknown. So with the story of course which I was watching over the weekend and then going back to find out you know who the players are within it etc. How true would you say is your account? I would say so as you've already said the the campaign took 10, 11 years before we got to the High Court and before that you know the poisoning had taken place over 15 years so it's a very very long story and to dramatize that into four hours is obviously very difficult and so you have to make some sort of you have to add some fictionalized elements to make that story work but I would say that the emotional truth of the story for the mothers is there. And I hope that the mother, well, I know that the mothers who are featured in the

drama feel that it represents their story. Well, the story, as I mentioned, the three mothers, as you do too, I'm wondering, there's so much back and forth, Annabelle, in those early years as well about getting people to speak out or take part in the actual trial, etc., that there are the settlement, I suppose, that they had in the end, the case. How difficult was it to get people to speak to you? I mean, this is a story of, you know, untold suffering, emotional and physical, from the

moment the babies were born and all the way through their lives, having endured, you know, untold suffering, emotional and physical, from the moment the babies were born and all the way through their lives, having endured, you know, countless operations and even today the children now, obviously adults, are still experiencing chronic pain and some have tumors that, you know, it will be an ongoing, you know, an ongoing tragedy for them. So we wanted to be very responsible and sensitive to the families involved and not, you know, ask them, you know, to be very sensitive in our approach. So we very, we went through Colin's solicitors, who are the solicitors that represented the families, and we asked them to make approaches and you know given 15 years has passed you know it was some people had moved on so we were

unable to get in touch with them. The families that did respond we engaged with them and explained what a drama involves particularly a Netflix drama you know where you have the potential to have a huge profile and we just wanted to make sure that was very carefully managed and that they understood the profile that it could get. So I like to think we did it very sensitively. Well, let me turn to one of those mothers that is Tracy, who fought for justice. Amy Lou Wood plays you in the series. I found her so compelling, Tracy. I'm really curious to hear how you found that.

But let me begin with your such a sad heartbreaking story about your baby daughter Shelby-Anne who died a few days after she was born. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened to you and her? Yes of course. Obviously we hadn't long been married and we wanted to start a family, found out that I was expecting my first child. Shelby Anne was born in April 1996, a bit of a traumatic birth because my husband had to say goodbye to me because I thought I was going to die. We overcome that and then the next day Shelby was brought to me in the hospital ward. I kind of noticed she wasn't really responding as a newborn should. She'd also got, when I put back a bit of the blanket, she'd also got a deformed ear, which I was told, oh, don't worry about it, we'll get that sorted out in a few days.

That evening, still she wasn't behaving as a newborn child should do and she still wasn't feeding. I tried constantly throughout the day to get the nurses to listen to me to be told that I was just an over reactive first time mum. About half 11, 12 o'clock that evening, I dragged myself out the bed to get help because I had this instinct that something was seriously wrong and within half hour she was switched to their special care baby unit, put on monitors and we were told that they needed to transfer her to the John Madcliffe Hospital at Oxford because there was something seriously wrong. My husband had to sign me out to actually go to Oxford with my daughter because they wanted to send her on her own without me which wasn't going to happen and when we got down there we saw them reviving our daughter and I kind of knew

then things weren't going to end very well. We were later told after scans and x-rays that unfortunately Shelby's insides were totally deformed as well as opposed to having a four chamber heart. She only had a two chamber heart, there was deformities with the kidneys, the lungs and the liver and where the heart should have been pumping blood around her body it was actually pumping blood straight into her lungs. We asked if anything could be done and we were told that there was over a 90% chance that she wouldn't make it and come out of the first operation. And then also she would need, if she did come out of that one, there'd be subsequent operations which they couldn't say that she would survive.

So we decided as parents to take her off live support machine, see if she started to breathe for herself, and if she did, then we would reassess the situation and sadly she died in our arms. It is so sad and there is so much actually when I was watching the series I was like hoping it was more dramatic, you know, less heartbreaking than what you went through but in fact it's so represented so accurately. Some of those first days in the hospital with Shelby-Anne as well. You did meet with the other mothers. You became part really of the beating heart of these women that were fighting for justice, along with Susan McIntyre, who's played by Jodie Whittaker.

But there is a part, there's 18 families that are involved in the court case where you wanted to prove the toxic airborne pollutants had harmed unborn babies. But you were told because of a legal strategy that you were not going to be part of the claimants case because they had limb differences was basically what they were going with and Shelby-Anne's case was somewhat different. That must have been devastating to have been so much a part of it and making it happen and actually giving evidence in the case as well but not to be one of the claimants. It was hard but at the end of the day we were all in this to prove that the toxic waste was done negligently all in this to prove that the toxic waste was done negligently and for us you know there was 18 children out there that needed to get justice and they

needed compensation for a better quality of life. You know sadly with Shelby dying we don't need no money you know money's not going to bring her back it's not going to change the situation so you know I felt quite strongly that because my evidence was crucial, because I worked right next door to the toxic waste, and obviously, the more you're exposed to something, the worse the outcome, which was proved with Shelby. So I had to do everything I could to help those children and the mothers, and I'll do it all again tomorrow.

There is a part where you kind of come to this epiphany of the dust that's on your car, for example, is what has potentially caused the death of Shelby-Anne. And I'm just wondering how that was for you because you're with the lawyer and you realize what you've been surrounded by and many others is potentially the thing that has been causing birth defects and in your case the death of your little girl. It is. I mean the dust was horrific. I mean we didn't know that within this dust it was toxic waste. You know they were doing works and on wet days you would be on mows that were like potter's reels and you know really wet sludgy

and what have you and because it was a really hot summer the dust then it just dried and it flew and I mean it was like there were days most days was like driving through a Sahara sandstorm and it's like within the office you could not have the windows open because if you went outside it burnt the back of your throat and your nose. You'd put your coffee cup down, your lunchbox down, something on your desk and within a few seconds you'd lift it up and your desk could be covered. You know at that time I think if we'd have known it was toxic dust then we you know we would then have started asking questions and saying something but we just assumed it was normal dust and mud. We heard briefly about your lawyer Des Collins he has

called on a public, called for a public inquiry and also a full apology is that something you'd be backing? Definitely backing it because as I say you know from the court case Shelby was the only one that had ear deformities and inner deformities. 18 children have limb differences. Now since this has come out we have been approached by a lot of people that did not see the case at the time, didn't know about what was happening. There are limb deformities, there are children with heart defects, deformities and inside defects as well. There's also another child that's come forward that's also got a near deformity. So I think, yes, you know, somebody, a public inquiry needs to be put into this

and we need we still need answers. And I mentioned the word full apology as the lawyer has called for there, his words. Back in 2010, a Corby Borough Council with its chief executive is Chris Melender, issued a formal apology over the scandal. I want to read it. The council extends its deepest sympathy to the children and their families. It said although I accept that money cannot properly compensate these young people for their disabilities and for all that they've suffered to date and their problems in the future. The council sincerely hopes that this

apology coupled with today's agreement, that was the agreement in 2010, will mean they can now put their legal battle behind them and proceed with their lives with a greater degree of financial certainty. Do you think with the settlement and that apology at the time, Tracey, there was justice? No, I don't. And, you know, it was to me, it's all just been brushed under the carpet. You know, the claimants that got compensation had a sort of an apology for them. Us as Shelby's parents have never, ever been approached by anybody. And we have never had an apology. we've never asked anybody, you know, they've never come to us and said look we're really sorry for what happened. So yeah, no, I don't think justice has been

done and as I say there is a load more children out there that are only just hearing about this that are now coming forward since Toxic Town's been out. I couldn't take my eyes off Amy Lew Wood who plays you Tracy. I was wondering how you found it watching it? Amy Lew Wood, oh bless her heart, she's the most adorable, loving, sensitive person I've ever met and the way that she took on our role which was very difficult and I would hate for anybody in their life to have to go through. The way she played it with such love, compassion, empathy and got the details exactly right is amazing. You know, she, all the actors and actresses throughout all of this have been absolutely amazing and have done

us proud, not only as parents but also our children proud and you know we just thank them all for everything they've done. Tracy thank you very much for coming on. Thank you. And that is Tracy Taylor one of the Mums whose story features in the Netflix series. We also had Annabel Jones who is the executive producer. Toxic Town is on Netflix. I do also want to let you know that BBC Radio Northampton has an eight-part documentary series called In Detail, The Toxic Waste Scandal. It is on BBC Sounds. You can also still watch the BBC documentary Toxic Town, The Corby Poisonings, which is on iPlayer. If you've been affected by anything you heard today, please do go to the BBC Action Line where you can find links to support. Lots of you getting in touch in relation to Molly Malone. Love the Molly Malone go to the BBC Action Line where you can find links to support.

Lots of you getting in touch in relation to Molly Malone. Love the Molly Malone story. She definitely should be put on a plinth, says one. Shiny breast syndrome also exists in the Juliet statue in Verona. The song in the statue remind me of the terrible typhus epidemic in Ireland that she died of. Actually, she's wondering, that's a question, Jenny in Midwell, she died of a fever and no one could save her. I will find out what that fever was.

Keep them coming. 84844. If you would like to get in touch. Well, let us move on to our next item, because it is 50 years since Japanese mountaineer Junco Taipei became the first woman to summit Mount Everest. Since 1975 over 800 women have climbed Everest yet they only make up an estimated 12% of all mountaineers to tackle the mountain. One of those women, Rebecca Stevens, became the first British woman to summit Everest that was in 1993 and since then

she summited the highest mountain of each continent in the world and tonight is set to celebrate the achievements of Junko Taipei alongside other Everest summitors in a series of talks at the Royal Geographical Society and we welcome her into studio today. Welcome Rebecca. Good morning. Well let us begin. Shall we begin with Junko Taipei for example that record-breaking summit that I mentioned. She started off, I believe, 14 women, this huge hiking crew. But what happened with her particular story? She found the mountains when she was at university in Tokyo. She actually felt a bit low in the city and used to go out walking and discovered mountaineering that way. And I think it's

rather beautiful. She says she doesn't think about mountaineering that way. And I think it's rather beautiful, she says she doesn't think about mountaineering as conquest or challenge, it was really sort of a heartfelt curiosity that led her there. And she just loved it more and more and got involved and got involved in climbing clubs. In those days, it was important for her to create an all-women club in order to be able to do this. I must tell you she was very lucky with the men in her life. She had a wonderful teacher who introduced her to the mountains. An actual point of fact, she was quite a sickly child and not sporty in the slightest, but she had this opportunity

on a school trip and just found energy in the mountains and this very encouraging teacher. Her father too sort of supported her a lot particularly when she was away at university and then she married this wonderful man who supported her. He was a climber and interestingly enough you know she climbed Annapurna and then thought about Everest and he said to her I would like a child first. She famously said that it's not like laying an egg. But they had a three-year-old child when she went off to Everest and he stayed at home and looked after this child and was supportive all the way. So I often think that she was fortunate in finding something she loved, but she was

also fortunate in having people that just nudged her. In the right direction. In the right direction. Upwards. Well, in this case, indeed. But she sat out on that particular hike, 14 women, all female, 25 Sherpas, and maybe we should explain exactly the role of Sherpas

when it comes to mountaineering. Yes, well, unsung heroes from the beginning of mountaineering on Everest in the 1920s right through to today, there, you know, it's an exception to prove the rule for anybody who climbs without. Reinhard Messner did, but people otherwise don't, never have done. And I think that's beautifully exemplified. It was just over 10 years ago when tragically there was an accident in the ice fall. Sixteen people died. Every one of them was a Sherpa because they were doing the backbreaking work, carrying

the loads through the ice fall, very dangerous area. And when that tragedy struck, all the other Sherpas on the mountain retreated to go to funerals in respect of those who had died, and the mountain closed because without them, you know, nobody was going to be able to climb. You know, they're carrying loads, they're fixing tents, they're fixing ropes, incredibly supportive role, and increasingly today leading expeditions as well. Oh, that's really interesting.

And frankly breaking all the records there are to break. So Junko had Aang Sering, the Sherpa, who was with her, but in the end it was just the two of them that summited right. Other people, for example, there was altitude sickness, I think there was even an avalanche, but they managed to... Yes, there was an avalanche which might have turned most people around, but not Junko. She was very determined. So what, that's her story, but what about you? What was the draw of the mountain and what was the draw of Everest? It's interesting, when I read Junko's story there are so

many parallels actually. I went to Everest as a journalist to write about other people climbing, saw their passion for it, was curious, wondered why did they do it, climbed myself up to the first camp with the help of a Sherpa, wouldn't have happened without him, he lent me the kit that I needed, and that climb up to the first camp on the Northeast Ridge was really a day of massive discovery for me. I just loved everything about it. It felt like all the things that were wonderful in life came together on that day from the

landscape to the physicality to the sense of wellbeing, even at extreme altitude. The history all wrapped up in it and it just grabbed me. I couldn't let it go. That sense of well-being, because I suppose some of us might immediately think of just the pure physical tiredness or the stamina that it requires, but there's endorphins going on there too. Well, exactly. And you see you're using all five senses. And again, Junko talks about this about the power of being immersed in nature where you know you smell you see you feel you taste everything and so many of us are restricted to using our eyes and our fingers on screens these days that I think it's it's a wonderful thing and her

message very strong about that that not only did she love to be in nature but sometimes it sort of saved her, you know, she needed to be in it. Yes and I think a lot of us learned that particularly during the pandemic, right, about how nature can save us. You are organising this celebration of Tjunko's success and as part of the event you're calling on people to be more daring in their lives, I love this, and it doesn't mean potentially scaling Everest but it could be taking a new path or something. What do you see in that? I think it's about taking that first step and finding out, you know, there are so

many opportunities out there and unless we sort of experiment we don't know. Coming back to what I was saying about Junko, I think that many of us, certainly myself included, were nudged byunko, I think that many of us, certainly myself included, were nudged by different people and I think we have a responsibility to support other people. So you're nudging? We're nudging, we're nudging. Exactly that, yes. What does it, I mean, you were a journalist that went up and then you became the first British woman to summit Everest. That is quite a leap, figuratively and literally.

Well, again, I think there might be something in common there. I don't think Junko set out to be the first woman in the world to climb Everest. And I didn't set out to be the first British woman to climb Everest. We just happened upon it. And extraordinarily, I think no British woman who got around to doing it before me. That's the odd bit. You know, it took until the early 1990s for somebody to even give it a go. And yeah, I mean if I were, you know, 25, 26 today, would I still want to climb it? That's an academic question, very difficult to answer because the mountain is very different. The whole experience is very different.

What is different? The mass of people apart from anything else and it's now firmly in a commercial era where they're guided expeditions where you know money changes hands between client and guide which opens the opportunity and opens the door for many many more people but the experience is a different one. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but one of the things I love about being in the mountains, and I still do today, is to trek.

And I do dig out the more remote places, the last rodent. And that's the better bit I love. And what about that figure that I mentioned at the beginning? Well, let me put it in context. Spring 2024, there were around 75 women to 400 men hiking Everest. that I mentioned at the beginning, well let me put it in context, spring 2024 there are around 75 women to 400 men hiking Everest. Do you think it's going to change drastically? What's standing in the way in our last minute?

Yes it is as you say about 12%. I think in the trekking world the figure would be different. I think climbing Everest, that lower figure, in Japan, interesting enough, there are many women on the trails as there are men. But to go that extra bit and go to extreme altitude isn't everybody's cup of tea. There's no reason why women shouldn't at all. I mean, there's no research in this but certain certainly observational evidence would suggest they perform extremely well at high altitude. So I can't really answer that. I mean I've climbed with other women who have then decided it's for them or not for them it's an individual thing. But today of course there's a money factor as well and the profile of people on Everest is shifting. So the

people are older often had very successful careers and then decided this is something they want to do. Well let us leave it there. Have a great night tonight Rebecca Stevens as you celebrate the women that have gone before you and after you climbing Everest. I will be back here tomorrow with Sarah Davis from Dragon's Dine among other things as we talk about the six minute entrepreneur. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, I'm back with a brand new series of history's

secret heroes. And he tells her that she will be sent to France as a secret agent. She will work undercover and if she's caught, she France as a secret agent. She will work undercover, and if she is caught, she's going to be shot. sounds. Bridgerton. Find what you're built for. What's your unique gifting. Podcaster Audrey Akande from the Receipts podcast. Don't let anyone dim your shine, your voice matters. And nature presenter Raywin Grant. What have wild animals taught me about parenthood? Almost everything. Dear Daughters stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter

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