Woman's Hour - Tracey Crouch MP, Marina Litvinenko, Author Kiley Reid

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Former government minister Tracey Crouch has joined the list of MPs who’ve said they won’t be standing at the next general election. She won the former Labour seat of Chatham and Aylesford in 2010 and has turned it into a healthy majority of more than 18,000 for the Conservatives. A self confessed 'sports nut', in 2015 she attained her dream job as sports minister and oversaw the government’s football governance review. In 2018 she resigned in protest at the government’s 'unjustifiable' refusal to speed up plans to curb controversial fixed odds betting terminals. Four years ago as the pandemic hit, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and following treatment went on to raise £153,000 for cancer charities. She joins Emma Barnett to talk about her decision to leave politics and her plans for the future. Yulia Navalnaya, the widow of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny who was announced dead in a Russian prison last week, has directly accused the Kremlin of poisoning and killing him and has vowed to continue his fight to change Russia. Someone who has been following this story intently is Marina Litvinenko, the widow of Alexander Litvinenko, who exposed corruption in Russia and died in a London hospital in 2006 after ingesting tea which contained radioactive polonium. The European Court of Human Rights found Russia was responsible for the killing of Mr Litvinenko in 2021. Marina joins Emma.Can you have a true friendship or relationship if one of you has more money than the other? Novelist Kiley Reid dominated bestseller lists with her debut, Such A Fun Age, which skewered white liberal guilt. Her new book, Come And Get It, returns to themes of race, class, and above all money. Set on a campus in southern America, it follows students and academics whose behaviour is shaped by money. Kiley joins Emma in studio.Women get more gain from exercise than men. That's the suggestion of a new study of 400,000 people. 140 minutes of moderate exercise a week reduced women's risk of premature death from any cause by 18% compared with being inactive. Men needed 300 minutes of exercise for a similar gain. Joining Emma to discuss is Baz Moffat, former Team GB rower and co-founder of The Well, an organisation that works to challenge the status quo for women in health, fitness and sport.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. This year, at some point, we think there will be a general election. We still don't know when. We do know 90 MPs are quitting politics and not standing again. And today, in her first interview, since she will not be going for re-election, I'll be joined by the former sports minister, Tracy Crouch,

Conservative MP for Aylesford and Chatham. Hopefully she can shed some light on what's going on. We'll also be talking and hearing from Marina Litvinenko, the widow of Alexander Litvinenko, who was fatally poisoned after exposing corruption in Russia. Nearly 20 years on, what is her message for Yulia, the widow of Alexei Navalny, now facing the world and her family? I'll also be joined by the writer Kylie Reid,

who dominated bestseller lists with her debut book, Such a Fun Age. She's back with another. And at the heart of it is something which makes many, many people very uncomfortable indeed. Money and friendship. Can you have a true friendship or relationship if one of you has more money than the other? I mean, of course you can. And you'll be in that situation. But what is it like?

What situations have arisen because of it? What feelings are there? Can you ever talk to a friend or a loved one about this properly? And if you have, how's it gone? 84844. You do not have to put your name. I always say that, but I reckon today it might be even more important if you are going to talk about money, friendship and the differences there on social media at BBC Women's Hour. It's a very difficult time for a lot of people across the country, but it'll also be something that you will have experienced at different points in your life. It may not be something right now that you'll think of.

Maybe when you were younger or starting out, or maybe it's only changed for you recently with things that can happen in later life. And, you know, whether it's divorce, whether it's difference and a change of circumstances, job loss, do get in touch. How have you navigated friendship relationships and money if you've even broached it at all might be the first time today if you've always wanted to say something you can get it off your chest to me oh three seven hundred one hundred four four four that's the whatsapp number you can either do a message or a voice note or if you do prefer email i always say you can email me through the woman's hour website and you can do that about anything you hear on today's program i love to hear from you and try and get through as many of

your messages as I can while I have the time with you. But my first guest today has been in politics. She's taken a few of your messages, I'm sure, certainly in her constituency. She's been in politics for 14 years, having served for three of those as a minister. Tracey Crouch, the Conservative MP for Chatham and Aylesford, has just announced she'll be standing down at the next election. And she's not alone. 90 MPs said they'll be doing the same, two-thirds of those Conservative,

which means apparently more Conservative MPs are standing down at the next general election than at any point since Labour's landslide in 1997. But why? Tracey, to come to her as self-confessed sports nuts and qualified football coach, says she achieved her dream political job in 2015

when she was appointed sports minister under David Cameron, only then to have to resign after taking a stand over her own government for delaying curbs on fixed odds betting terminals. She joins me now in her first interview since announcing that decision to quit being an MP. Tracey Crouch, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Why? Why the decision now? Why are you stepping down? So I explained in my letter last week that the reason I was going to go is that I've had quite

a life affirming experience in the last few years having gone through breast cancer. And I appreciate that everyone's cancer journey is very different. But for me, it was something that was quite a revelation. And now I feel happier and healthier than ever before. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity to really grasp that and to try new challenges and take on new experiences. And I just decided that all for very positive reasons, that 14 years in politics is enough and I turn 50 next year. So it's time to go off and seek another career. Your diagnosis came alongside the pandemic.

And I believe you're actually given your diagnosis over the phone. I was, yes. I had a telephone call with my consultant and had all my treatment during the pandemic, which was certainly perhaps a different experience to those going through cancer either before or after the pandemic. But yes, I'm here on the other side. It'll be four years in June, hopefully all clear. And it's just time to seek a new venture, really. Had cancer already changed how you've done, how you have conducted yourself in politics

and how you've done politics since? I think so. I think it's a very odd thing to say, but I always sort of kind of say that cancer saved my life in a way that it has completely changed my outlook on various things. I went and climbed Kilimanjaro last year and in the process, along with six other women, raised £153,000 for a breast charity in Kent. And it just sort of kind of really enables you to sort of kind of focus

on different issues and matters in your life. And I love being a politician, don't get me wrong. I do. And it's something that I wanted to do. My school friends will tell you that I've wanted to since school. I don't quite have that same recollection, but I've certainly since a young adult wanted to be an MP. And I have done it and I have achieved some wonderful things and I but at the same time when you get elected into uh into parliament for a term it's for five years you know there is no sort of kind of changing your mind halfway through and leaving it's a it's a five-year stint it seems to be if you're the prime minister you could change your mind about being in that position we've had quite

a few in that time we have had more than perhaps i would have expected in uh 14 years for sure um but it is something that you do sign up for a term rather than a very short period of time and it's not like a rolling contract where you can suddenly decide to leave at any given point so you know there's an important kind of series of events that will happen in the next five years in in my life like my son will transition into secondary school um you know and so I just think that this was the right time to go. And you do get to a point where you're thinking, if you don't make the decision now, when do you make that decision? And I just decided that now is, you know, the right point. You're not alone, obviously. And, you know,

there are high profile Conservative MPs, former ministers alongside you, Sajid Javid, Ben Wallace, Dominic Raab, to name a few. I mean, there has been a narrative, people are high profile Conservative MPs, former ministers alongside you, Sajid Javid, Ben Wallace, Dominic Raab, to name a few. I mean, there has been a narrative people are getting out while they can before there is this huge defeat. Just the latest polling, you should never trust the polls completely. But Labour is ahead by 22 points. What do you make of that? Well, I think everyone has their own personal reasons for going. For me, it wasn't about the potential of losing my seat at the next election

because I'm not predicted to lose my seat at the next election. But I suppose if you were able to give our listeners, especially as you are leaving and you've had a decent time in politics, a perspective of that feeling or that narrative that may not apply to you, but do you see that in those around you? What is your view? No, I don't necessarily see it. I think people have just, you know, particularly people who have had cabinet level roles, then actually returning to the back benches is something that's very different. You get used to a very fast pace when you're in the cabinet or you're a minister.

And it's actually a very different pace. You realise that you as a human being have a great deal of capacity to do multiple things and perhaps just suddenly realise that there's an opportunity to do those things at the pace that you've become very used to and very comfortable with elsewhere outside of Parliament. I mean, I have to say my 14 years and many of my colleagues who are going are also of the same intake as me, the 2010 intake. Politics has changed significantly since we were elected my colleagues who are going are also of the same intake as me the 2010 intake you know politics has changed significantly since we were elected and it is becoming much harder um to be a politician

uh in the way that perhaps it was you know much easier in 2010 so it's changed for the worse i think so yes um we get i mean it's well reported the amount? I think so, yes. We get, I mean, it's well reported the amount of abuse that we get. Women do get it worse than men as well, sadly. And I do think that sometimes it's very difficult because, you know, we want to see a parliament full of women as well. You know, we want the diversity of representation, but at the same time, it can be very challenging for women in politics. Do you put that down then for why some people are leaving, the changing nature of politics? Yes, I would say that for some people it's a very important part of it.

I mean, I didn't put it in my letter, but my son's in primary school at the moment and already he gets things said to him. He doesn't understand them. They're said innocently. Well, it could be anything like, you know, you're getting Citizen of the Week because your mum's the MP and things like that. He doesn't understand

it's said to him innocently, it's received innocently but at some point you know it becomes malicious and I don't... Do you think he has had things said I mean that could be about somebody who has a powerful job but do you think he's had anything said to him that does show the worsening climate

of attitudes towards politicians and perhaps towards your party i don't think you'd understand them he's only eight i don't think you'd understand no i wondered if you've been told about them no no i haven't but one thing that i was quite struck by was um over christmas new year we were talking about new year's resolutions and um i said to him that i think you should make a resolution that says you will focus more at school because your teachers tell me that you're a really bright boy, but you just don't focus.

And he turned around and he said, they only tell you that because you're the MP. And I thought, wow, he was seven at the time, I thought, wow, for a seven-year-old to know that people tell me things because of my job, it actually proves the point that the teachers are making that he's a bright boy but nonetheless he already understands that and I just sort of kind of decided that at some point it just gets a bit worse for him and and have you ever had because some MPs have spoken to me about this and spoken publicly have you ever

had any situations with that nastiness that changing sometimes of the public that has made you think you don't want to expose your family to that so sadly we all get that um you know we all get levels of abuse i'm i don't get as much as other colleagues do but then i'm not necessarily one of those colleagues that goes out there and you know i'm not a you know somebody who who says lots of things about politics that then encourages people to reply in that way but you know the first tweet I saw on Monday morning was effectively calling me a child murderer because of um the Israel Palestine um situation and so you're just like this is something that's just becoming increasingly

uncomfortable um and i i just don't want to put my family through that that isn't the reason i'm going but if it is a factor context in the in the whole sort of kind of consideration of what do i want to do for the rest of my life. And what do you want to do next? Well, it's a bit of a leap into the dark, to be honest with you. I haven't got a job yet. And, you know, that's quite scary, but it's also a bit exciting. Obviously, I worked in sport for three and a half years. It would be nice to do something in sport, but I'm open-minded.

I also represented the charity sector and I I represent tourism so it's an open field to keep with the sporting partners because I was also struck and I will come to to you if I can and some of your particulars and I mentioned what you resigned as sports minister over which people may remember uh despite it being some time ago and you know what was going on and what is going on in betting shops but you talked of of having pride about the work that you have done and yet at the same that you have done. And yet at the same time, you know, if we were just to look at, as you were talking about health, you know, under this government, under your party, NHS waiting times in 2023 in England,

you know, for cancer specifically, are the worst on record. The waits have worsened every year for the past 11. And, you know, there have been a few movements in the right direction, but that is the reality right now. Yeah, it's a huge challenge. And I think, you know, one of the things that the pandemic did do is it sort of kind of restructured some of the waiting lists. And I certainly think I'm very lucky in the hospital trust that I'm in, that they kept all their cancer services open and then they met all their targets

and have continued to meet their targets. But it's not the same across the country. And I completely recognise that. I don't understand why it can't be the same. And... I think that's okay for you to say. I mean, you could say it on a level you don't understand why it can't be the same, but I think that's okay for you to say that. I mean, you could say on a level, you don't understand why it can't be the same. But there's blame that, you know, there's leadership,

there's money, there's investment, it's not just the pandemic. And when you're looking back over the last 14 years, can you honestly say you're proud of this government and its record with the NHS? I would say that in terms of our investment in the NHS, yes, I mean, I think that we are seeing more money going into the NHS and we have continued to see more money going into the NHS. But I completely also see that it is an NHS that is struggling. And I'm not in the health ministry. I've never served as a health minister. You talked there about your experience being a positive one.

I'm just really aware when we speak, there'll be those listening where it hasn't been that for either them or their family. And I get constituent letters who don't have the same positive experience and that they have faced delays, but it's not necessarily

the same cancer. And I think it's very difficult to sort of compare like for like in those experiences. But it is clear that we're seeing an increasing population our hospitals are not necessarily built to um uh to cope with that population growth certainly in medway the chatham end of my constituency the hospital was built for a population of 85 000 and it now has you know 400 thousand uh plus uh and so you know it is

struggling and i can see it you know for my for myself as an mp i can see it myself as a patient but i do think that government has particularly in cancer is invested in things like community diagnostics which is helping um we've invested in a lot of awareness campaigns in terms again i'm talking about cancer uh to ensure that people are checking themselves, that they are presenting when they're seeing symptoms early, because that, of course, improves outcomes. But has it solved the problem? Well, clearly not, because we're still seeing waiting lists.

But I don't know what the answer is to that. And I'm being honest. Is it Rishi Sunak? Is that the answer? Is it more Rishi Sunak? Well, I like R Rishi actually. It's not about if you like him. It's about whether you have faith. Yes I do have faith. Because getting down the waiting list just reminding myself is one of Rishi Sunak's five key targets. It's not happened yet. It's gone the other way. Do you have faith or what and what's that faith based on that he can do that? Yes, I do have faith in the Prime Minister. I mean, I think we also need to reflect that

there's a lot going on and, you know, seeing challenges in the economy, we're seeing, you know, global challenges that are taking up his mind, you know, there's all sorts of different issues that a Prime Minister has to deal with. But I do think that he is doing, you know, a good job in challenging circumstances But I do think that he is doing, you know, a good job in challenging circumstances. I also think that he has a really good health team following his reshuffle. So I do think that there are things that he can be focusing on to help sort of alleviate some of these challenges in the NHS, but it's a tough, tough job. It's interesting to hear, you know, what others are saying in terms of reform of the NHS. But at the moment, let's just try and focus on what we need to do, which is to make sure,

particularly in cancer, that people are aware of the symptoms that they do present when they are finding symptoms and they're getting onto that pathway as quickly as possible. Is it right that you didn't go for another cabinet job because you were thinking about your health and how that would work? Oh, no, it wasn't because of my health. It was a few months after I resigned. Boris Johnson had been made prime minister and was apparently going to offer me a cabinet role. But I'd actually only just reacquainted myself with my family following my resignation. And I decided that I didn't want to go back into government

at that particular point in time. As it happens, I'm pretty pleased I didn't because I am convinced that had I gone into government, I wouldn't have found my cancer. I would have been too busy to have checked my breasts. I wouldn't have found my cancer. I would have been too busy to have checked my breasts. I wouldn't have noticed changes. I certainly wouldn't have been in the routine that I had got myself into. And I am certain that had I been in cabinet, I wouldn't be sat here today. That's fascinating. We often hear about when people do go for things, but not when they necessarily don't.

I'm just aware that also today the BBC has revealed and you worked under David Cameron that the government knew that the post office had ditched a secret investigation that might have helped wrongly accused postmasters prove their innocence. Some ministers were told an investigation was happening. But after postmasters began legal action, it was suddenly stopped. Were you told? Did you know anything of this? No, not at all. I mean, I was sports minister. I wouldn't have been told anything about another department's inquiry. But, you know, I read the BBC report this morning. It's a very good investigation. I expect nothing less of the BBC. But I've been supporting a sub-postmaster in my constituency for some years now. And I find it disappointing that they've had to go through this extremely difficult, challenging experience

where their lives have been turned upside down because of this scandal. And actually, I applaud colleagues like Kevin Brennan, sorry, Kevin Jones and James R. Bothnot for the work that they have done in Parliament to try and keep this on the agenda. And of course, the ITV drama that has really showcased this issue. But the investigation that the BBC has announced today, it's a real, I find that really difficult because people have been put through some really horrible experiences. Yes. And I suppose the reason I was also interested is we've seen this row between the business secretary, Kemi Badenoch, and the post office chair, Shisak, and Henry Staunton, after he said he'd been told to delay compensation payments for sub postmasters.

I don't know if the person you're representing has had or been talking to has had their payout. And Henry Staunton said he'd be told to stall these payouts to allow the government to limp into the election, apparently to help state finances. But Kemi Badenot said those claims were completely false, accused him of spreading up, spreading made up anecdotes. And accusing someone of lying in your business is a very serious allegation I just wondered we were talking there about the tone of politics how important it is I only thought to ask you not necessarily for more detail on this but more what you made of that because I've seen some of the quotes from those who were falsely accused and they actually don't believe Kemi Badenoch some of them they don't believe the minister they believe their payouts are being held up. And I just wonder what you make of that, your colleague's decision to do that.

Well, I think tone is very important in politics. And I think it is always important to be respectful and to be compassionate and to understand that whatever we do, there are people that will gain from it and there are people that will lose from it and therefore I think that it is essential that if we are wanting to be treated with respect that we do the same with others now on this you know the truth will come it always does and I don't know what that is you know no I think I wasn't no one really does right now exactly what I do know is that I've been working with colleagues on another issue of compensation, which is the contaminated blood scandal, and very much think that those payments should be happening now. I understand the impact that they will be having on the public finances, but this is not their fault. Just on tone, though, do you think Kemi Badenoch has struck the right tone?

I wasn't in the chamber yesterday, so I don't know. I've read the reports of what she said, but reading the reports of what she said and hearing it for yourself are two very, very different things. But I do think that Kemi, she's a cabinet minister, she is a very fiery character. People like her for that and respect her for that. But I do think tone is very important and it's always important to maintain a level of respect and

to understand that you need to be very compassionate about people and their lives. Just talking of compassion, before we let you go back to the job of politics while you're still in it. The former footballer, Joey Barton, posted on social media some very stark words, for instance, calling ITV pundits, Ennio Lucco, Lucy Ward, the Fred and Rose West of football, saying women aren't qualified to talk about the game. You know, there are those who say don't give that the attention, but it also has an impact and it goes out to people and it has an impact on the women and it has an impact on perceptions rightly or

wrongly what did you make or how unhelpful were those comments well they're extremely disappointing and very rude and unnecessary because it's actually not true um i mean he's not alone to think those things but he's just giving them a plat those those views a platform um but when i was sports minister i got a letter from somebody wasn't signed they weren't that brave but it did say things that women uh should talk about cooking cleaning having babies things that women shouldn't talk about football and um you know there are sadly people that do think that Joey Barton shouldn't, you know, be allowed to have that platform to sort of kind of continue those views. And I'm pleased that actually ITV sort of kind of came out and defended their female pundits as a consequence. But I think that, you know, the world is changing.

But you say about, you know, women and girls not having to hear that. Actually, as a mother of a young boy, I don't want him to hear that either. I want him to know and understand and respect that women are equal. And actually, I'm pleased to say that I think he does think that. Well, you go out coaching girls' teams still, don't you? I do. I still coach girls' teams, yeah.

And he watches girls' and women's football. He watches sport in the same way that I watch sport. I don't watch sport in a gender context. I watch sport and that's what I want him to watch. Well, it's changing all the time now, but it had been in a very gendered context because there hadn't been the coverage, I suppose. But that's the world changing in a positive way for sure. Tracey Crouch, thank you so much for coming on the programme and talking to us. You know what you've seen and how things have changed. I think it's fascinating. Thank you for having me.

Thank you. Tracy Crouch, the outgoing MP, which she'll get used to saying, but we don't know what she's doing. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Next.

You've been listening to that. I'm sure there'll be some comments coming in. There are many responses coming in to the question I asked in light of my next guest. Can you have a true friendship or relationship if one of you has more money than the other? Really interesting responses coming into this. Let me just give you a flavour. I currently have a new friend who is obsessed with money. She constantly compares herself with how much money I have.

She doesn't like to think she's poorer, so I have to hide a lot of the things I do from her. I'm finding it difficult to continue my friendship with her. Money and income do impact friendships, and if you want them to grow, I believe you have to have the same values and lifestyle which money brings. Lizzie says

my best friend is very wealthy and our friendship group are all financially well off. I'm a single mum and I'm really struggling. I feel excluded from some of the social events they organise.

They really don't understand. They have no idea how it is to not be able to afford to heat my home or to struggle to buy birthday presents for my children. They are lovely friends and we go back a long way, but I feel very alienated.

Another, we want equality in society, but a taller and a higher earning partner for ourselves, it seems. It's upsetting to acknowledge as a feminist reads this message, but my experience is consistent with the statistics on this. In the majority of straight couples in my friendship group where the woman is the higher earner, the relationship has broken down with the women initiating the breakup.

Well, I think we've got enough for about five plots there of a book. Let me tell you who's just walked in. Kylie Reid, who dominated the bestseller list with her debut book, Such a Fun Age. That book sends out the white liberal guilt of a woman whose black babysitter was wrongly accused of kidnapping her daughter. Kylie's new book, Come and Get It, returns to some of those themes, race and class, and how it intersects with money. The book follows three

women whose lives are totally shaped by the stuff. Agatha is the academic, studying how rich girls talk about wealth. She pays a student, Millie, to let her eavesdrop on private conversations. Millie is poor, saving hard to buy her first home and is one of the few black students on campus. And along the corridor, we have Kennedy, a working class white student who's struggling to fit in. It can get messy, as you can imagine. Kylie Reid, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for having me. Can I start with the question to you? Can you have a true friendship or relationship if one of you has more money than the other? A friendship? Yes. I'm going to say yes, that we've seen time and time again, that people just connect over the craziest things and that they can maintain a relationship. But I also think that we've seen over and over again that class can tear people apart and it can also keep them together. I think on a very basic level, something I wanted to dive into with this novel was consumption. And there's so many more things tear people apart and it can also keep them together. I think on a very basic level, something

I wanted to dive into with this novel was consumption. And there's so many more things that are pushed on women to buy, I feel, than their counterparts. And so if you can't afford to do the vacations or the gel manicures or whatever it is that your friends are going to do, that's going to wear on you. And so I think it's a case by case basis in that case. Why do you want to turn your attention in this direction? I mean, I've already got the answer in some ways, because how many messages we're receiving, right? Everyone is so fascinated by money, myself included. And on a very simplistic level, when I'm watching a movie, or when I'm reading a book, and someone says, Oh, my rent is so expensive. I'm screaming at the television,

just tell me how much it is. You want the number. I want the number. And so it's a stylistic choice on my part as an artist. But I also feel, well, now I know for sure after doing so many interviews for this book that other people, while they might think it's gauche, they want to talk about numbers as well. I'm not alone on that. So you were talking to people for research? I did.

I talked. I started with students. I knew I wanted to write about young people and it extended to optometrists, Starbucks workers, baton twirlers, just about anyone who would talk to me who had the characteristics of the people I was writing about. I love the way you said baton twirlers. It sounds so great in the UK. Go on. Yeah. Anyone who would talk to me, I wanted to know about how people got their money, how they thought about it, what they did in the day-to-day basis. And sometimes things were so perfect that they went straight into the novel. So what sort of things do you feel like people wanted to say? And did they feel like they could say it to other people as well? Because

even though everybody wants to know, has perhaps a reaction or something to say quite strongly, they don't say it a lot. That's correct. Certainly not in this country. No, it was a lesson in human behavior. Honestly, people always ask me, how do you get people to talk to you about money? And the answer is quite easily. I think on a one-on-one basis, people are more free to share things. There was one young woman who was white

and she was a student. And I was asking her about her sorority recruitment process. And there were two black sororities and fraternities on campus as well. And I was asking her about her sorority recruitment process. And there were two black sororities and fraternities on campus as well. And I said to her, so when you do this big recruitment meeting, are the black sororities and fraternities there as well? And she said, oh, no, no, no, no, just the normal ones. And she caught herself. And I have to be professional in that moment and not react as well. And she said, oh, no, not that they're not normal. And it's very clear, you know, what

those those groups are in her mind. And so my job as an artist is to replicate that behavior as well as I can also showing her generosity and intelligence in other moments, because she's a human person. We're not very good at nuance these days, are we? Certainly not. Because as you say, there are other things and are other things to that person. Of course. But it's a tricky time. And I think what you're also going straight towards is we want to live in a world where things are better. You know, we want to live in a world where there is greater equality.

We're going in the right direction along the lines of race, class, where you start and where you end up. But the numbers don't lie on a lot of levels. The numbers do not lie. And I think that showing the numbers would give a greater sense of what people are actually dealing with on a day-to-day basis. The minimum wage in my lifetime has not changed that much, but the housing prices have. And so I think that people equate the money that they have to their morality, and they shouldn't, because it's no one's fault that they have more money and other people have less. The problem is the systems allow some people to have nothing and some people to have everything. So as soon as I'm focusing on

the systems that we're working in, it's easier to let my characters misbehave because what else are they going to do within systems that don't work for them? Yes, and I think also, you know, how much people think about it and how much money that is and how much it changes their capacity to live the lives that they... It's not about not being able to get stuff,

although consumerism is a big driver, but it's also about what you feel free to do. 100%. And that is not a freedom most people have. No, especially in the United States. There were a few years of my 20s when I did not have health care and that dictated how I performed at my job. I remember I would have to cut a birthday cake. I worked at a birthday party studio. We did like eight parties a week. And there was a frozen ice cream cake and you had to cut it a certain way very, very quickly. And I got good at it. But I remember having this moment whenever I did it, I said, do not cut yourself because you will alter the course of your life. Because if you have to go to the hospital, if you have to get stitches, it's going to be five, six, $7,000. And that

was everything to me at the time. I think money drives the risk we take, the work that we do and how we can respect our bodies in our workplaces. Yeah, I mean, and also I find what's interesting with your lens here is how the women are with each other and how women can be. And then I don't know if you see a difference between how women and men talk

and it's hard to generalize, but what your view is of that? I definitely, within my interviews, I think that women tend to be more revealing, but also have more tact around the language that they use within money. Those were the things that as a writer I was really interested in. I started hearing money in everything. If someone's saying, oh, she comes from a good family, or he goes to a good school, or that's a bad school. I started hearing the dollar signs within those a little bit more. And I do think that women are conditioned to have more. I'm putting quotes around etiquette around those things. Yeah.

And for now, have you changed your conversations about this? Or were you already doing it? Do you think? The people that I love talking to the most, my close friends, we're always talking about money. We think it's fascinating. We think whatever limits our world and the quality of our lives is very interesting. But to be clear, anyone who feels awkward or impolite talking about money, I really don't fault them that. I understand that people are raised that way. And I understand that people feel uncomfortable when they're faced with their morality and what they deserve and what other people deserve. I come from the place that we all deserve to have healthcare, houses, food. And so from that standpoint, let's talk

about money. Yeah. Well, it's also, you know, I'm just thinking I went to this recent exhibition in London called Women in Revolt. And it was looking, it reminded me, and I thought I knew all about it. It taught me a bit more about the campaign for wages for housework. And there'll be some listening this morning who've recently, some of our female listeners, we have lots of men as well, who've become full-time mothers.

It doesn't make sense financially for a lot of them to go back to work with childcare costs. And they're having to navigate their worth in that home and how that works. And I wondered what your take is on that, because you said something that I think people will take around the idea of your morality and linking that to money, but how you feel your worth as a woman, especially when you've gone into a caring position that there's no other sense, it seems at that point for that family to take.

It can be very difficult indeed. I can imagine. I'm of the belief that childcare should be subsidized. I think that if you are going to be a business and support families and want your workers to have families, you have to give them childcare to take care of those children so that they can make the decision of what they would like to do. At the same time, I'm a mother now as well. And I really don't ascribe to, oh, I hate my child and she doesn't let me work. And I think that being a mother is wonderful. And giving yourself into a caring role is also a great way to show who you are as a person.

So I think that we are not given enough options in terms of being the kind of mother that we want to be, whether that's working full time, part time, no time. I think that the options are completely limited. So I think, I mean, there will be those who also wanted to do this and can't, they have to go back to work. You know, it's many layers, but I suppose it's that it's the identity of how you bring value. And that's what has been a lot of people feel has been corrupted. I see that completely. I feel that if truly it sounds it sounds very trite. If people had more of a financial stability, the insecurity and the personal worth, I don't think would play as big of a role. If we if there was more inequality, I don't think people would feel uncomfortable talking about money because they wouldn't feel that they were offending anyone that they had and had not. I think the dollars and cents plays a to get in touch. Being a guy in his late 30s, the dating market, it's tricky. As somebody on an average wage, but has a target audience of middle class women who

are on high salaries, there's very little chance of a relationship materializing. The societal norm is that the guy should still be the breadwinner. It isn't the case anymore. But that is a norm that this person is navigating. And I suppose on the dating front, it can get quite tricky. I'm so glad I'm not dating anymore. But I imagine that it's very difficult wanting to show someone that you care and not wanting to go over those gender norms as well. At the same time, we have to accept that our world is changing dramatically. The houses that our parents bought are not available to us. So I hope that he can find a person who can understand that it's a partnership as well. And there's one from Catherine, sort of flipping it slightly, which says, I'm very content with what I have.

I'm very fortunate. The problem with some of my richer friends is that they believe I can't possibly be content as I don't have what they do. So that's a judgment the other way. They sound awful. Drop them. How has been writing the next book then coming to this having had such a hit? Is it easier? Or is it worse? You know, it's always hard. Every novel is so hard. And you think, oh, I've done this before, this should be easier. But I think it's even harder in that way. But publishing takes so long. It was 18 months after I sold Such a Fun Age that it came out into the world. And so I started working on Come and Get It 10 months before Such a Fun Age came out. And a thesis professor of mine told

me, you did the big book, you had a great reception, do this one just for you. Make this the book that no one would have let you publish before and you get a freebie. And so that's why I've been treating it. That's a good bit of advice. And you still teach? I still teach, yes, at the University of Michigan. Okay. And how are you as a teacher? Are you strict? What's your vibe? All right.

Deadlines, timing. You need to be on time. That's my hard line. But as far as artistic freedom, I think that I'm there to uplift my students and help them see their greatest strengths and their bad tendencies. And I love teaching a lot. I hope my students like learning from me. Well, I think I'd like to learn from you in our short time together. Kylie Reid, thank you very much for coming to talk to us. The book's called Come and Get It. And it's the

one she just wrote for herself, but you are able to read it as well now. More messages coming in. As a household, we have a low income, which means we can't just buy whatever we want. However, all my children go to private school due to grandparents paying directly. And I don't think anyone realises when they assume I can join in with things like £45 lunches or new skincare. I feel like I'm living a lie as I fit right into the lifestyle we put out. But we're watching all the pennies. That's a very honest message indeed and a very interesting perspective and a rare one to get with no name on that message.

Another one here, we want equality in society but we're not there yet and so they continue. Keep your messages coming in. A question prompted by that book that we were just talking about. Can you have a true friendship or relationship if one of you has more money than the other and how has that

materialised, if I can use that word in that way, in your lives. Do get in touch. Now, on yesterday's programme, we profiled Yulia Navalny, the widow of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who was announced dead in a Russian prison on Friday. Russian prison authorities say he suffered sudden death syndrome at a remote Arctic prison, but his allies believe he was murdered on the orders of President Putin. Now, his wife, speaking in a video released online, has directly accused the Kremlin of poisoning and killing him and vowed to continue his fight

to change Russia. Having killed Alexei, Putin killed half of me, half of my heart and half of my soul. But I still have the other half, and that tells me I have no right to give up. I will continue the work of Alexei Navalny, continue to fight for our country. Yulia Navalny is there. His family have reportedly been told that his body will not be released for two weeks. Yulia is alleging that it is being kept until traces of poisoning by the nerve agent Novichok has disappeared. Well, someone who's been following this story is Marina Litvinenko, the widow of Alexander Litvinenko, who exposed corruption in Russia and died in a London hospital in 2006 after ingesting tea which contained radioactive polonium. The European Court of Human Rights found Russia was responsible for the killing of Mr Litvinenko.

Marina, good morning. Hi, good morning. Thank you for being with us today. I just wanted to ask, first of all, what is your reaction to seeing Yulia say what she has said and the accusation of poisoning? Thank you very much for having me. It's really difficult to see this. It's like a deja vu. It's again a woman need to stand up and fight for her husband who was killed. Of course, it's a different situation. Alexei Navalny was a politician, very prominent, well-known, and he was killed.

And many, many people in Russia in absolutely devastated at the same Russian abroad who believed name of navani was a hope one day Russia would be different country I'm very proud of Julia. I'm very proud of Julia because I see just the friends They're all devastated. They have not words and they have not powered or to speak to anybody But she has not right to grieve. She has not right to stay close behind the door. She understands she needs to do action. Which, you know, must be incredibly difficult to not get that space, to not be with your children only and be doing this at this time? Absolutely.

Alexei was already in prison for two years. And we know being in prison in Russia, it's already as a torture. And every day you have worried what might be next day. And we know Alexei was not very well after poisoning in 2020. We knew he didn't recover completely 100% when he returned back to Russia. But this is just a brave man who believed he's a Russian politician and he needs to be in Russia and now it's all goes to Julia shoulders she said now when she lost her half but she still have another

half and she will do everything for your husband and I think it's an extraordinary moment for all Russia because woman in Russian politics it's an extraordinary moment for all Russia, because women in Russian politics, it's a very unusual example. We know it's mostly a male playground. We have an extraordinary woman in Russian current history, we can say, was something similar for equivalent right with men to be in front of political life. It was a wife of Mikhail Gorbachev, Raisa Gorbachev, who was recognized as a very independent and very intellectual woman.

It would be a different feeling about her, but everybody knew I raised a girl mature and then it was Galina Starovoytneva extraordinary Russian politician in 90s and we can call sure if you like or not but as a Russian Margaret teacher she was strong she was intellectual but she was killed and now we have another chance when we have a woman, Yulia Navalny, who decides to be a politician because her husband was killed. It gives me some kind of hope for Russian politics might change when a woman in Russian politics will be recognized. Do you think she will be able to have that impact with his followers? I have no idea. I don't know Yulia, but her movement immediately after what happened to her husband

showed me her as a very strong person. And being all her life with Alexei, it means she knew what he is doing, and she really supported him. And we know it was always in political history, when you have a strong politician, a man, it was always a strong woman just on his side. I want Yulia would succeed and it might make unfortunately what I mentioned Galina Starovoltova who was an extraordinary woman and if would be elected as a president she tried to do this in Yeltsin time it would be different era for Russia, but it didn't happen. But I just try to say maybe woman had more chance being not touched or not be killed, not arrested. Or maybe Yulia Navalny will do something different and she would be able to unite Russian opposition. What was not easy for last two years when a lot of people from Russia immigrated

and they still be not united. And I think it's a time for Russian people who are against a war in Ukraine, who want to see Russia different, not under Putin, need to unite it. Maybe Yululi would be able to do this. It must have been a very difficult and strange few days for you. You say it's like deja vu, nearly 20 years on since your husband was killed. And I just wonder if you if you could put that into words for us how that's been for you it's a very difficult um because we have it again and when i was asked what the reaction has to be or what might change and this situation never repeat. Unfortunately, after my husband's death,

they tried to prove this regime is so dangerous and you can't make a negotiation and believe what you say it would be or what they say it would be done. But it was every time trying to make this relationship political communication and business as usual but every time we are having worse result and for me was achieving this what you already mentioned uh public inquiry reports and europe Court of Human Rights decision, is Russia stayed behind of this crime? And it was very highly likely Putin approved this murder.

Did we have a proper reaction on this? No. You're talking now in 2021 when you were able to get this ruling, as I mentioned, from the European Court. But you don't feel there was a proper reaction from who? International leaders or here in the public? Or who do you mean? I think international leaders. in 2006 when I saw UK was alone and and and this fighting against this unbelievable crime when a

high radioactive material was used in the center of London and it was a some reaction but it was not support not from European Union not so strong reaction from United States because again it was a story of London or United Kingdom much bigger reaction was in 2018 when Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia was attempted to poison the same nerve agent Novichok in Salisbury it was a little bit bigger reaction but it was already time when Russia started war in Ukraine in 2014 and when you put in regime if you not stop if you not make a stronger sanctions or I mean support Ukraine in this way, it would be something worse. And we talked about this, and we have this war.

We have a big war in Ukraine. When we're talking about a death of one person, we're all just shocked. But every day we have tens, hundreds of people dying in Ukraine, civilians, militaries, and it's the same person, Putin, responsible for this. And why I'm talking in both sides, death of Alexei Navalny, war in Ukraine, and death of my husband, and of course, death of Boris Nemtsov, and anniversary of this prominent Russian politician who was killed just in front of Kremlin, going to be the 27th of January.

This is all exactly about the same when we're talking about Putin. And every step, if you not stop him, would be worse. And when we're talking about a future Russia, Russia will be happy to be with, it's only time to support Ukraine. Without Ukraine winning this war, nothing will change in Russia. Marina Lipinyenko, thank you for talking to us today and very striking to hear your words and the hope that you have from Yulia stepping up in the way that she has done. Now she is the widow of the Russian opposition leader, Alexei Navalny. The latest actually from Reuters just come in is that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has not watched that video statement from Yulia in which she vowed to continue Alexei Navalny's work.

But her assertion that he was poisoned with a nerve agent is unfounded the Kremlin has said that's the latest on that let me tell you about a new study before our time together is over women get more gain from exercise than men this is a suggestion of a new study of 400,000 people 140 minutes of moderate exercise a week reduced women's risk of premature death from any cause by 18% compared to being inactive. And men need 300 minutes of exercise for similar gain. The NHS recommends men and women aged 19 to 64 should get at least 150 minutes of moderate exercise

or 75 of vigorous exercise each week. Baz Moffat's on the line, former team GB rower and co-founder of The Well, an organisation that works to challenge the status quo for women in health, fitness and sport. Baz, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What is moderate exercise? What is vigorous? Should we just get that defined quickly? Yeah, so moderate exercise is moving your body and probably being able to have a conversation at the same time. Vigorous exercise, I like to define it as you are all in.

So all you can think about in that moment is the exercise that you're doing. So whether that's boxing, spinning, doing your sport, lifting a heavy weight, all you can think about is doing that movement. Whereas moderate, you can kind of have a chat, think about other things at the same time. What do you think of the idea then or what's been gleaned so far that women gain more from exercise than men? Yeah, I think this is a fascinating study and brilliant to see, you know, a longitudinal study done over 20 years looking at the gender differences, because up until now, only 6% of sports science research has been done exclusively on females and so we've never really been talked about the gender differences and so we're now being presented with it with information that's telling us that women may well be getting the same physiological

benefits as men from doing less exercise and we're not too sure as to the why there's lots of theories out there but i just think it's interesting to see that we're not too sure as to the why. There's lots of theories out there. But I just think it's interesting to see that we're now looking at the genders differently in terms of their response to exercise. And do you think, I mean, in terms of how we use this, how we understand it and how we take it forward, what do you think of that? I think that we, I don't want us to interpret don't want us to interpret this, this information as kind of patronising women and say, and telling women, oh, well, if you can find the time, you don't need to do as much as men. But we do need to kind of think, oh, well, it's reassuring to know that we, 150 minutes isn't, if we can't do that, there are plenty of other things that we can do and I'd like to think that we look at this study and we say right women anything is better than nothing and you will be gaining physiologically and you'll be gaining more according to this study than the men are you know you're getting more bang from your buck for every minute of exercise that you're doing and and for that I mean you know there are different types of exercise also for different parts of you can go right down to your cycle but also for seasons of your life totally and i think that that's something that we're only just looking

we're just looking at and the you know if you look at midlife then absolutely we know that strength training and weight training is of huge benefit to midlife women not only mentally but also from a bone density and muscle strength perspective and a mental health perspective, we need to be really encouraging that midlife woman as she's entering into perimenopause to be lifting weights. But unfortunately, there aren't many like trainers or gyms that actually understand how to train that midlife woman. And I think the more research that comes out that shows that women need to train differently than men and can exercise differently,

then hopefully the training of the workforce to support those women will follow on. I was also just thinking, I mean, I've recently started some weight training. I'm 39 and that's part of postnatal recovery for me and learning something new. But I was thinking the other day, oh, well, I'm doing quite well with that.

And then I realised how much I sit down, how much I actually don't move necessarily day to day. And, you know, that's also a part of this. It's not just necessarily going to the gym, is it? It's actually making sure you're moving. Yeah. And this study didn't pick up on that. So this study measured, you self-reported how much physical activity you were doing. But really interestingly, it didn't look at the movement we were doing or the movement we were doing just as part of life. But I often, when I'm presenting on this and I've got room full of people, I'm saying, you know, by the time you get to 40, you're world-class at sitting. Your body is trained to sit still. And then if you go to the gym or you do your exercise or you do your sport,

actually the body is not conditioned as well as it was in its 20s because you're moving around more at that age as it is in your 40s. So we're more at risk of getting injured the older we get

purely because we've sat down so much. I know. Well, I don't broadcast ever standing up. I might need to look into that. Standing desk, standing mics. Although, of course, if you're doing it on the sports field, if you're covering your line of work, as you were,

they are often on their feet. So I'm rarely jealous of them in that position. Just if you're listening to this and you're thinking one thing you could change, anything you'd say just to start yourself off, Baz? Yeah, I think we just need to look for every opportunity we can to move and any kind of physical activity is good. And when I was at a talk a couple of weeks ago and someone just stood up and said they hate physical activity.

And I said, right, you may never love it, but do something that you don't hate. So don't think you're necessarily going to love physical activity or movement, but do something that you know that your body's not going to detest doing. Well, we'll start with that. Baz, thank you very much. Baz Moffat there, reacting to that latest study, which some of you may have seen in the papers today. Coming back to your questions, or rather your answers about money today off the question, can you be close to someone, have a friendship with someone if you've got very different financial situations going on? I work for someone who is an extremely wealthy person. Hundreds of millions. They are the unhappiest person I know. They've lost most of their true friendships and are surrounded by

people who are only after one thing, money and status. But another one here that says, I have a friend from my perspective who's very wealthy. We're from different backgrounds, hers wealthy, mine what we now call disadvantage. Neither of us is particularly materialistic, more eco-friendly, really. We meet up for tea and cake and conversation. We can both afford the bill in the cafe. We get on very well. Our conversations are intellectually very interesting. Money and backgrounds are not a problem. I think it just depends on the individuals concerned. Conversation topics are more important to us than bank accounts and upbringing. Well, amen, of course, to that. But for a lot of you, I have to say, different things going on,

different parts of your relationships have seemingly been affected and also not least when getting together with someone on a romantic level as well. I should say, keep listening to Radio 4. Stay with us now to hear Kirsty Young talking to the billionaire philanthropist, I'm talking about money, Melinda French-Gates. Melinda's going to be talking about her feminist awakening, life after divorcing Bill Gates, and why the super-rich might not know

as much as they think they do. That's on Young Again after the news here on Radio 4 at 11. Thank you for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Marianna Spring,

the BBC's disinformation and social media correspondent. And I've learned firsthand that the online world can be a breeding ground for hate. But why do some people behave the way they do on social media? For BBC Radio 4, I'm meeting the people at the heart of some extraordinary online conflicts to see if understanding, even forgiveness, is ever possible. Listen to Why Do You Hate Me on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.