Woman's Hour - Tracey Emin, Divas, Skateboarders, Know Your Place, France drug rape

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

As visitors walk through the doors of the newly reopened National Portrait Gallery in London, they will see 45 hand-drawn portraits of women by British artist Tracey Emin, that have been cast in bronze. They are said to represent every woman. Tracey speaks to Krupa Padhy about her creative process and what she hopes people will take away from the images. Society sets us up to fail, according to the academic Dr Faiza Shaheen. Dr Shaheen studied at Oxford University, became a leading statistician, is standing for election as the Labour party candidate for Chingford and Woodford Green and has written a book ‘Know Your Place’. Some might describe Shaheen’s career as a personal success, evidence of working-class mobility, that anyone can do anything, but Shaheen thinks otherwise. She talks to Krupa about inequality in the UK.Stories have emerged in the French media of a man from Provence who allegedly drugged his unsuspecting wife every night so that scores of men could rape her. We haven't independently verified the story but French newspaper Le Monde is reporting that more than 50 men have been charged. Krupa is joined by Anglo-French journalist Benedicte Paviot to tell us more.In the final part of Woman's Hour series about women in India, Krupa looks at the rise of women skateboarders. Since its recent inclusion in the Olympic Games, skateboarding is becoming increasingly popular across the country. Atita Verghese is regarded as one of the pioneers of women’s skateboarding in India. She started skating aged 19, when she was the only woman in the skatepark. In 2015, she founded the Skate Girl India project and talks to Krupa about the events she is organising across India to empower girls.A new exhibition at the V&A celebrates the creative power and cultural significance of the ‘diva’. With a mixture of fashion, photography, design, costume and music DIVA will celebrates the personal stories and resilience of some of the best-known divas; Marilyn Monroe, Tina Turner, Cher and Rihanna. Kate Bailey, curator of DIVA speaks to Krupa Padhy about what people can expect from the exhibition and why the concept of a diva still matters in our culture.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Krupal Bhatti and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and thank you for joining us. What lies behind every door is a story. What about when the door is the story? After three years, the National Portrait Gallery in London is reopening its doors today. And the artist behind their revamp with hand-drawn portraits of 45 women is Tracey Emin. I'll be speaking to her in just a moment.

Also, when we focus on the exceptions at the top, we ignore the declining conditions for those at the bottom. A line from a new book called Know Your Place by Dr Faiza Shaheen. She'll tell us why she believes it is a lie to suggest that there are quick fixes to inequality. Plus, what does the term diva mean to you? The Victoria and Albert Museum poses that very question in a new exhibition which kicks off this week, showcasing, celebrating and debating divas around the world. We want to know about your diva moment on stage, at a wedding, in the workplace, wherever, where you've oozed with self-confidence, swagger and self-importance, or maybe it is a term that you utterly dislike. And on the subject of self-confidence, why skateboarding is on the rise amongst women in India

the country's top female skateboarder will join us as well there are plenty of ways to get in touch with us I do hope you will you can text the program that number is 84844 text will be charged

at your standard message rate if you are one for social media you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour over on Twitter and Instagram. And of course, you can email us through our website

or you can now send us a WhatsApp message or audio note using the number 03700 100 444. Please do get in touch on any of our stories. But as I mentioned there,

it is a big day for the National Portrait Gallery reopening after its closure to the public in 2020. And from the moment you enter, right at those doors is a new major commission by artist Tracey Emin. The three doors that now form the entrance to the gallery feature 45 portraits hand-drawn by Emin and then cast into bronze. And they are said to represent every woman. Tracey joins us now to discuss the commission

and the importance of representation for women. Good to have you with us. Morning. Good morning. I understand you kept this commission a secret. Tell us why and how. Because I was asked to keep it a secret because everybody was aware of the renovations, but the idea of the doors opening towards the north and the whole facade changing, they wanted to make a really big deal out of it. And by keeping it a secret just made it more exciting for everybody, I think. Was that tricky? No, it wasn't, because everyone's more interested in me keeping it

a secret. We'll get on to the art in a moment. Yeah but people were sort of so surprised that I could keep the secret of course like it wasn't a secret it was a professional request. Yes. To keep it on embargo to make it fun for everybody and Her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales was the person who officially opened the door, which also makes it really exciting and historic and a wonderful moment. So I was quite in agreement in keeping it a secret. And it was fun as well because I was working in my studio. People would ask me what I was doing.

I'd say, just drawing faces, just drawing, just drawing. But also they looked like fantastic across my studio floor. And they had to be very graphic because they had to then be etched into the bronze. So it was a kind of different drawing style for me. So people were kind of amused at what I was doing and why I was suddenly drawing all these sort of faces. But it definitely made my studio look very different and very very alive. Before we elaborate on that can you just describe for those who don't know the entrance to the gallery as it was because it was built in 1896 and it wasn't the most

glamorous entryway. No but it was supposed to be so where the new doors are now which are three really grand high amazing doors um face to the north going towards leicester square and an up um charon cross road um and that was the original idea and then suddenly they realized that those doors were facing the women of the night the molly boy houses you know the dest destitutes and the drunkards and the gamblers and the whore houses and everything. And so they realised that they couldn't have like the gentry going through these, like coming from this direction because it may appear that they've been up to no good. So they then suddenly at the last minute changed the door around to the side opposite St Martin's in the field church but of course it was sort of scrunched in it was too small and it's always been that way and it's been incorrect and that's why when you went to the National Portrait Gallery before it was always

like a hustle and a bustle to get in and felt cramped and it was a silly little shop at the side and it always felt like you I know it just didn't feel grand it didn't feel pleasant not for me it kind of often stopped me from going there because I didn't like going when there was when it was very crowded because it's such a popular you know museum gallery and then Nicholas the new director took over a few years ago about seven years ago and came up with this plan to reinstate where the doors should have originally been, which is really good because it's in line with London,

how it is now and how people are and everybody flowing past. And they've also bought the small ticket box office there, which is in front, which will be like a little tea pavilion, which is really good. And they have all the lands underneath, which is going to be a fantastic new area. So you were tasked with this job of owning this space, this new entry, and you went about it by drawing these portraits of 45 women. First of all, who are these women? Yeah, well, I went about it with sort of fear and intrepidation because it was such a big,

it's a really big deal because it's forever. It's a trusted position. It's beyond the establishment. the establishment we have now isn't the establishment we're going to have in 200 years time and those doors are still going to be there so there was an incredible amount of responsibility and onus put onto me so i didn't take it lightly and my first idea was to draw women from history my next and it was always going to be women because um because the the whole place was very masculine in a strange way and very manly and all the roundels at the top were all men it's 18 men at the top so it was obvious to me it had to be women and and of course National Portrait Gallery is full of really amazing women so I started with the obvious idea of drawing women from history. And then the more I looked at it, I started off with Daphne du Maurier, who's my favourite writer. And then I went on to, you know, then I thought Vivian and then this person and that person.

And then it got very, very complicated because there was so many more than 45. And there were so many women from different backgrounds, different ethnic origins, everything. And I just thought this is really politically complex and this is not my field of working. This isn't what I do. And it started to look like a little sort of school project of me trying to, you know, complete the brief. And I didn't like it.

And then I just thought, I'm just going to draw me. I'll start off with me. And then the more me's I drew, the more other people came into it, the more different women. So you were the inspiration for these 45 women. I love this. I love this. Because I thought if I was going to have 45 women on the doors,

would I put myself on it? But let's make it clear, you were the starting point and then they emerged into something else, into someone else. Yeah, which is good because I've got women of different ages different different um ethnic origins different color different facial features different ages and and it was really exciting I didn't try to draw them I just drew these women from my imagination and they just developed into this other thing which was really exciting for me I loved it and there's one on it which is mum and she looks like a sort of um Norman Norman Conquester she

it looks Norman it looks it looks amazing it looks like something you'd have on a Norman cathedral and she sort of looks like my mum but she definitely doesn't look like my mum but I put mum and it's everyone's mum. And then there's another one, which just by chance, I didn't mean it, but she looks like she's got a nurse's cap on. So it could be a nurse from now. It could be Florence Nightingale. But what it represents is a nurse, which is really, really good because of our national health system, you know.

It represents all these people that were looking after us during the pandemic so subconsciously I covered all these different posts without even trying so it's genuinely my work so it's been a journey for you as well in that sense yeah yeah I loved it I love doing it and I you know I could have carried on drawing them I really it was amazing especially when I started drawing all the older women as well. I was thinking, wow, I didn't know these women obviously living in my mind and in my head. They're there, which also made it, I realized that they're there for everybody. We all have all these women of our lives that have touched us, that we pass in the street, that we've loved, who have looked after us, nurtured us, you know, different people. So it kind of makes sense that it is every woman and it is for everybody.

And do you have a favourite beyond mum? Yeah, I like the woman at the side profile with the mask on. She's my favourite. So it also represents the pandemic. But also she looks like she's a woman wearing a chador or yashmak. Right, OK. I'm half Turkishkish cypriot so it's good for me it's really interesting also this other thing that's been brought up so i'm oh according to vada moyanichak eighth nubian eighth part nubian right yes i read about that

yeah yeah my great-grand my great-grand my dad's grandfather was Nubian from Nubia, Egypt, Africa. And so it was really interesting for me to actually have these sort of Nubian-looking women as well. So I was thinking maybe I'm sort of like somehow psychologically going back into my ancestors or something. All-encompassing, that's what you wanted it to be. I have to put this message to you. Do you remember someone from school called Penny Fuller? Yeah, of course I do, yeah. Because Penny's just got in touch and said,

I went to school with Tracey. I'm so happy to hear her sounding so well and still super proud of everything she's done for the art world. There you go, message from Penny for you. Yeah, that's brilliant. I remember her, yeah, that's amazing. Still very proud of your efforts there. Coming back to your artwork, and as Penny says, your contribution to the art world,

I want to know how you made these pieces of art. You cast them in bronze, but technique-wise, can you talk us through that? Well, I've got to give all the credit to Harry Weller, who works with me, and all the foundries that we work with who have been exceptional and fantastic so basically i'm all i did was made the drawings i was just really creative and then we etched then we then we made then my carpenters who i call the wood mice made all these wooden trays and then we filled them up with clay and then put the fingerprints across. Then we cast the trays in bronze,

and then we then etched the drawings into the cast bronze, which sounds simple, but it's not. It's more complicated. So we had to decide on the levels of the engraving. We had to decide on the patinas, everything. And Harry, who I worked with was just really amazing going to all the meetings going to the staying at the foundries all night and all day doing doing all of the technical work for me while I being the artist just made all the drawings and

enjoyed every single moment of it so it's technically complicated. It was time sensitive, as they say. And we were working to a strict budget and a strict timeline. And I'm really proud that Harry and I got it all in on time, working with the founders, working with National Portrait Gallery, working with the architects, the people who produced the doors. It was a fantastic project to work on and every single way possible. It's been a dream. I can hear how much this means to you, Tracey. I absolutely can. And for those who aren't familiar with the space,

I mean, what you've created lies in contrast to the busts of men which are carved into the buildings beside. And that really represents what this new revamped National Portrait Gallery is trying to achieve. But when you go into the National Portrait Gallery now, you just go, wow, it feels magnificent. It feels like a palace, you know.

It feels grand and it feels also, it feels incredibly contemporary. And I'm so proud to be part of that future because it isn't just here now in the present. And also because of what I've been through with my illness and everything, I didn't really, you know, the idea that I've made these doors and they're going to be there forever is a good feeling for me because it means that life continues on regardless of our own. Yeah, it's not, you know, life as an artist,

life hopefully should go on forever. And mine is going to now. I'm there. No one can take me away. No, but it sounds conceited. I think it sounds incredibly moving. Absolutely. And my next guest, Kate Bailey, who we're going to speak to in a moment from the Victorian Albert Museum, has got her fist in the air cheering for you.

So we are all in agreement that what you are sharing with us is incredibly powerful because we are, Tracey, and do stay with us. We are going to turn our attention to the subject of divas. And this is based on a new exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. And it's an extraordinary exhibition, which I am going to talk about in a moment with Kate. But first of all, Tracey, what does the term diva mean to you? Well it's pretty insulting and condescending actually

and I think there's probably not been a time in my life I'm sure someone's listening to my interview and saying god what a diva it's an absolute insult for women who hold a position of power that have to have some kind of authority that have to assert themselves in some way and I think many times in my life I've been called a diva and I found it incredibly insulting. I am keen to hear your thoughts on this as we go through this next part of the program because the new exhibition celebrates the creative power and cultural significance of the word diva. It's a mixture of fashion, photography, design, costume, music. It will celebrate the personal stories and resilience

of some of the world's best-known divas. So we're going to talk about the concept, what it means, whether it's relevant anymore, with the curator of that exhibition, Kate Bailey, who's been listening to Tracy as well. Good to have you here, Kate. Good morning. Thank you for having me. It's been so inspiring listening to Tracy. Well, we're very happy to have you here as well. We've. Thank you for having me. It's been so inspiring listening to Tracy. Well, we're very happy to have you here as well.

We've heard Tracy's views on the word diva. First of all, let's strip this right back to basics. Where did the word diva even come from? Well, the diva originates in the Latin. It means goddess. So it had this origins as a kind of term of exceptional power. It moves and is adapted and adopted in 19th century opera. So it's this incredible word to describe these distinguished opera singers.

But as Tracy referenced, over time it has become subverted and become more tarnished and negative. But this exhibition really reclaims it as a positive because it shouldn't be a term that's a negative term at all because its origins are around goddesses and strong, creative women. And as you said, this applies to all sectors of society. But I wonder, Tracey, within the art world, whether there are any women who have been rightly or wrongfully called the word diva. Yeah, I think most women that are very, like, great artists, the great women artists, have been called diva yeah i think most women that are very uh like great artists the great women artists have been called diva and they've been called diva by the establishment they've been like so

for example if i'm doing a big show a big museum show somewhere i'll have a list of things i want so one of the things that i said was i didn't want my films or i had like a small cinema space inside i didn't want a curtain going across i like a small cinema space inside I didn't want a curtain going across I wanted it to be open and the sound to flow through the exhibition and when I turned up there was this horrible baggy curtain hanging up and they refused to take it down so in my youth I jumped up as high as I could swang on the curtain and pulled it down and for those kind of actions I was called a diva when actually if they'd just done as I'd asked them to do as it was my exhibition

never would have happened that's so so interesting to hear Tracy because actually what you're doing there is you've got always got such a strong sense of self and identity and who you are and what you stand for and actually you just knew you had to get it right. And to be called a diva in a negative context, there is just shameful. It's actually you, you know, delivering what you needed. And so you should be congratulated for that. It's great to get you on, Tracy, to hear about your anecdotes there and hear your examples of how it's applied to your own life. Sopano singer, Alison Lange, who was on the programme recently, had this to say about divas. I think the word diva isn't a very good word, if I'm completely honest.

I think that a leading lady should lead a company. So if you are the soprano and you are treated with respect, of course, because we must all be treated with respect, I think that setting yourself boundaries and wanting to be respected is a very, very okay requirement to have as a leading lady. And that's exactly what Tracey was saying. I want to ask you, Kate, whether the concept of a diva has changed over time? Absolutely. I mean, one of the things we explore in the exhibition is the story of the diva from the early 19th century

right through to the present and kind of look at how and where it became negative, how it shifted, how the relationship of the sort of lineage of female artistry and how the perceptions of that change, perhaps as creative women started demanding and asking for equal rights, power. And you get this negativity and this sort of fascination with people's behaviours as opposed to their art. So this really traces that story from 1830 through to sort of 1960 and sort of mirrors that first wave of feminism.

And then from the 1960s, we reclaim it, looking at these strong attributes that performers and artists hold with them to deliver that strong sense of self, attitude, creative power. We've had this message in from Eve in Kent who says, The term diva could be divisive. There is no male-equivalent word. diva could be divisive there is no male equivalent word just like the word hag there is no male equivalent let's pick up on that yeah I mean

there's divo but is it widely used no the the diva is a a term of uh expressing kind of feminine creativity um and the way it's been used in a way in the sort of in a misogynistic way with the patriarchy, has meant that it's sort of been tarnished. But maybe there should be more divos. What about in the arts sector? Divos, Tracey? Well, there's a man, we are divo, we are divo. So there's, like, I was going to say this thing about divas. If you go down to Margate and you bump into Dame Jane or any of the, you know,

in the trans world and in the, you know, there's this idea of being a diva can also be, not in the trans world, it can be a really massive compliment, you know. When someone's a diva and really hitting it up it could be seen as a great compliment if someone's really pushing the feminine side so it isn't always negative and it isn't always negative in in many different genres of society but for women it's deemed as negative and it's exactly the same as like being a dame so we've got the sirs and we've got the dames and you've got the pantomime dame again so as a dame you're not allowed your your

partner doesn't become an equal to you but if you're made a sir then your wife is made a lady so it doesn't kind of make sense this whole idea of like the diva is like you know they're problematic they're hitting off or something and it seems negative. And even when women are like when it would be used in the term of a goddess, for example, it would be made in a sarcastic way. So I think that the word diva is is still really pejorative and negatively used, which is unfortunate. Tracey Emin, so good to get your thoughts. I know you do need to head off. We've kept you longer than we said we would.

So thank you for giving us some food for thought there. Coming back to you, Kate, another message here from Anne. I see diva as a personality type that emerged in the 60s and 70s, pop icons, female and male. We've now moved forward in society and accept that women and men may want to express themselves on stage or in public in an empowered way. But there is no need to wrap it up with outrageous or demanding behaviour. That's an interesting comment.

Yes, it is. I mean, that's that sort of perception, isn't it? That actually these artists who are just at the top of their game, you know, there's only the diva can step out on that stage. She needs all that, all those people to kind of bring with her. But of course, you need to be demanding to kind of get it right. So in a way, the negativity never seems fair. You know, this is extraordinary artists who are just, you know, wanting to do their best and express themselves with vision, with attitude, with femininity, with grace, with their voice. Get their voices heard.

What can people see at the exhibition? The exhibition traces a story from the early 19th century. So you can see wonderful kind of divas delivering this story from Adelina Patti and Jenny Lind and these early kind of opera prima donnas so how they negotiated the term in the early 19th century then we trace the story through into the sort of silent movie world look at dance divas look at Hollywood look at the relationship of the Hollywood diva and the and the and the term so there's objects from Theda Barra her fantastic Cleopatra dress to Marilyn Monroe's, some like it, hot gown, Mae West. Yeah.

We also feature Maria Callas to kind of look at that personification of the opera diva and her costumes from Norma and Tosca. Before we sort of enter a sort of divadome of a celebration of the diva musical power. And here we feature performers like Beyonce, Madonna, Rihanna, Lady Gaga. We've got fabulous kind of costumes designed by Bob Mackie for Tina Turner, wonderful kind of gowns by Julia MacDonald for Shirley Bassey. We look at voices for change. We look at how these performers like Nina Simone like Billie Holiday were using their voices to kind of make a difference to society but also we've got Billie Eilish the

youngest headliner at Glastonbury wearing Stella McCartney owning that stage for that kind of younger generation so it's very intergenerational one of the things we really wanted to do is bring this network of sort of creativity and this lineage of female artistry together and so interesting hearing Tracy talk about the relationship of the architecture of the National Portrait Gallery because working in the V&A there was muses there was goddesses around the original Victorian building here we've kind of reclaimed that sort of creativity for the diva and created a sort of digital Valhalla, which is sort of echoing lots of what Tracy was saying about her work at the MPG. And that's a broad collection that you've just outlined,

but for you personally, is there a standout item? Wow. You know what? The exhibition is a celebration of the voice, diva power through the voice. So there's a headphone experience as you take this journey. So you actually hear the voices of Adelina Patti, the voices of Ellen Terry, of Sarah Bernhardt, of Marilyn. And then I think all of those voices collectively right up to the singers today, where you can hear Shirley Bassey, bang out, Diamonds Are Forever, or Beyonce's Halo. It just, I think for me, the voice throughout diamonds are forever, or Beyonce's halo.

It's just, I think for me, the voice throughout. I mean, obviously the visual expressions are amazing, but following the diva's voice and hearing how they made their voice heard is the most empowering thing for me. And can I put you on the spot here? I've asked our audience for their diva moments. Are you able to share your diva moment? Probably this exhibition. There you go, owning it. Thank you so much, Kate Bailey there from the Victoria and Albert Museum.

And how long is the exhibition on for? It's until April. It opens on Saturday. Fantastic. So there's plenty of time to take a look at that. Thank you so much for your time. Another message here says, I utterly dislike the term diva. However, I read the Oxford Dictionary definition and it is simply a distinguished female. And that says more about society as to why the term has developed negative connotations. I think that soundly wraps up what we've been talking about. Thank you for all of your messages. Do keep them coming in on the handle at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, Instagram and, of course, via text and email as well. Thank you for your time, Kate.

Thank you. Stories have emerged in the French media of a man from Provence who allegedly drugged his unsuspecting wife every night so that scores of men could rape her. Now, we haven't independently verified the story, but the French newspaper Le Monde is reporting that more than 50 men have been charged. It is a shocking story.

I'm joined now by the Anglo-French journalist, Bénédicte Pavillot, to tell me more. Thanks for joining us, Bénédicte. What have you been able to find out? Well, this is off the scale. This is a man who was arrested initially for what was thought to be a small incident. He had been filming women in the changing rooms of his local supermarket via hidden camera.

So this all kicked off in September of 2020. He's got an alias. So we'll refer to him as Dominique P, the letter P. And what happened is that when the police were investigating this, they actually seized the man's phone and his computer. And on going through it, they discovered extraordinary footage of repeated abuse of his wife that he'd been married to for some 50 years, where she was non-consensually, having been drugged, being raped. It's a horrific story. You've mentioned how they went about investigating it,

but how did they even begin to find out about the horror that was taking place? Well, they went through all these carefully filmed acts. This man was carefully filming it all. He then stored all the footage on a file that he called abuses on a USB, which was discovered by this police team. And it was clear that some of the men, by the way, and it seems there are 83 men involved, but 51 plus this husband has been arrested. And these alleged rapes took place between 2011 and 2020. The fact that he was doing this to his own wife, I mean, he was very careful in some ways, because he got these men to not wear any aftershave or perfume, not to smoke, because he didn't want any strong smells, basically, to alert his drugged wife. The men had to wash their hands in hot water so that there wasn't any sudden change of temperature. This is all going on, as you said in your introduction, in Provence.

It's actually in the region of Vaucluse. He would get them to undress in the kitchen so that there wasn't any possibility they'd leave clothes in the marital bedroom. They would need to park nearby, near a school, and they would have to walk in the dark to this house to avoid alerting the neighbours' suspicions. So he clearly had a whole modus operandi that he repeated again and again. And until that, what seems little incident in the local supermarket, filming women allegedly in the changing rooms, none of this would have been

discovered. Important to stress, of course, that these are allegations at this stage and the case is yet to go to court. But in your opinion and to your understanding, how likely is it to come to court? Well, what's interesting is this is actually the newspaper Le Parisien, and it's Le Monde has written a very long article based on, they say they have read 350 pages. And it does look like if the investigating magistrates follow the prosecutor's recommendations, a trial will go to court next spring. Le Monde says this will be historic in size for such a case. I mean, this is unheard of. And the fact that the website and websites involved where this material was also being discussed and uploaded

is still live and working is, of course, a source of great concern. And as you've said, this is widely reported in the French media and we at the BBC have been unable to independently verify the details that you've shared. As have I. What are the wider implications of this? You did mention the website there. Well, the wider implications is that, you know,

one has to wonder how many other cases there are of that and without dramatising, this is obviously very worrying. I should mention that the wife, Françoise P, has filed for divorce, that she understandably, when these facts were revealed to her, became suicidal. She thought she'd had 50 years of a happily married life, that she had a kind and caring husband. Yes, he had mentioned wanting to possibly, you know, do a threesome or foursome and this is something that she said she couldn't have sex with somebody that she didn't have feelings towards, but to discover that that abuse had been happening to her.

And I should mention also that allegedly the men that are aged from 26 to 73 who have been charged with rape and who have been remanded in custody are from all walks of life. You've got a lorry driver, a municipal councillor, a prison guard, a nurse, a municipal counsellor and a journalist. So this is, I think, shivers down most women's spines. You're bringing us details here from a very long and extensive report that you read about this in Le Monde. Can you give us a sense of why you feel that this is getting such a high amount of attention in France?

Well, I think that's just really starting because these details are emerging, as I said, initially from Le Parisien. And Le Monde, in this very long article, is quoting this 350-page document and also then quoting some of the lawyers involved in this. I think it's the fact that this woman was drugged, that this is clearly non-consensual, that this happened and she had no idea. She says that, according to these documents quoted in Le Monde, that she maybe explains why she felt so tired at times. He was administering on a daily basis, allegedly, an anti-anxiety drug to her in her evening meal before his, quote, guests arrived at their home. It's just, it doesn't spare thinking if this is happening to other people. And these are, I mean, obviously,

what this woman has said in this article is that she is waiting now, apart from having filed for divorce, she's waiting for the trial to get some answers. But what she is absolutely clinging on to, and I think we can all relate to that, is her anonymity. And we will be keeping across those details of the trial as and when we do have that information.

But for now, thank you so much, Bénédicte Peveo, for bringing us up to speed as to what you know about this story. Again, one that is being widely shared across the French media, yet to be verified for the BBC, but one that we felt important to bring you what we know. Thank you for your time, Bénédicte. Next, a girl whose family claimed benefits faced discrimination. He went to a state school, then went on to Oxford University and then went

on to become a leading economist. Now, would you say this was a success story and real life evidence of working class social mobility? The Labour Party candidate for Chingford and Woodford Green and economist Dr Faiza Shaheen, whose background is similar to that, says not. She's taken a personal and expert look at society to find what she thinks really defined her and might define your life chances. A case she argues in her new book, Know Your Place. Welcome to Women's Advisor. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Now, a question in your book you say that you like to ask people is what is your story? And I feel like that's a good starting point for us because it is your story that is the backbone of this book in many ways. What is your story? pointed to as like someone that can make it that social mobility is real so um I grew up my dad was

a car mechanic so working class um spent part of my childhood on benefits um went to local state schools in East London um then managed to get into the University of Oxford and you know since then did a PhD and has been lucky enough to do various really interesting what you would call high level jobs um so you know that that is the base like that is the story and often that is the story right but for me I actually that story to me only proves something about the exceptions that we point to and the reality is that most working class people don't get to make that journey, A. And B, is that journey even the ultimate sign of success? We need to have a much broader idea of what success is because our current conception of social mobility fails on its own terms, but also actually ends up being quite hurtful for most of the people in society that are doing lots of other very important jobs.

Staying with your story, when you were four, your mum said that you would beat the odds that you'd get to Oxford, which you did. But you're saying this wasn't an obvious thing for a working class brown girl, as you put it, that the idea that the odds were always against you. Just expand on that a bit. Yeah, so one of the things that I do in the book, as well as personal stories,

is to look at some of the stats and in particular the probabilities of different journeys. And yeah, my mum did say that my mum was a very, very aspirational woman, as you would say. You know, she was an immigrant from Pakistan. She she like all parents wanted her kids to do well. And so the idea is, though, that the likelihood of me making those kind of journey that kind of journey and now I'm running to be an MP you know is so very different so much lower than the likelihoods of say Boris Johnson David Cameron taking the eating route um into Parliament and the idea is that um why are we setting these odds up to be so different so we we all say, so the journey, my journey of going

through Oxford to becoming an MP is 1000 times less likely than it was for Boris Johnson and David Cameron, for instance. Well, instead of asking people to beat those kinds of mad odds, why don't we change the odds? And this is really why the story of social mobility as we currently conceive it is so troublesome. It means that we end up focusing on these odd exceptions or these odd kind of, you know, almost movie-esque stories, rather than saying, why aren't we actually changing the system and making sure that it's not, we're not asking so much of people and we are developing our idea of success to be much wider. You go as far as to say that by holding up the exception as the normal most or saying that you too can beat the odds is damaging.

Yeah, I think it is damaging. I think it's damaging for various reasons. One is that it asks people to face these inconceivable often odds and it makes it all about them as an individual you as an individual have to work harder and it completely strips out the role of political context of society so even in my story yes my mum said that to me when I was four but that wasn't the end of the story I had incredibly inspirational teachers that really supported me in local schools we went on benefits the welfare system was so important to my story. You know, the various issues that we had with housing. And so, you know, you can't, the story is so damaging, because what it does is that it points to individuals and individual hard work. And it gives politicians and policymakers an excuse

to not address the policy failures in wider society. When you got to Oxford University, that, you say, almost further opened your eyes to the limitations of social mobility. Because many will think, well, you've got to Oxford, you've made it. But no, when you got there, you realised how much more work there was to do. Yeah, I mean, people will have different experiences of Oxford, but personally, when I went, I just found it filled with privilege and entitlement, you know, people that think they're the smartest people, but ultimately, I grew up with people that had a lot more smarts in different ways. And I realised there that the networks people had, the kind of jobs that they

would have afterwards, they were on, you know, they weren't on a social mobility often has this image of a staircase, they weren't on a staircase, they weren't just like a conveyor belt, they were just going straight from like top private school to Oxford to top job to huge amounts of influence in society. And that scared me because I would hear what they really thought of working class people when my friends used to come up and visit me and people would be really rude and dismissive and so that kind of motivated me it was actually a good class education because obviously I'd never been around that and I kind of got to really understand the level of entitlement that exists amongst the kind of upper classes.

Another challenge as well that you've had to overcome in many ways is what your parents taught you to deal with is racism. And you talk about that extensively in your book. I mean, what impact did that have on you? Yeah, so one of the stories in the book is how, you know, like a lot of children of immigrants, my dad used to say, you're going to have to work twice as hard and people are going to call you names at school. And, you know, the story is that he used to tell us that if anyone calls you the P word, then you've got to punch them in the face. And my mom just told that told us to say that, no, you can't you can't hit anyone. You've got to say that that means clean. And so there's a story in the book about how that transpires. And I'm four years old, and I, you know, well, maybe six years old, and I had to do to have to deal with that in the playground. But there's a much deeper problem

that isn't about, you know, being called names on the street, which is structurally how the system, whether it's through the education system, through the justice or injustice system, as I call it, actually uses prejudice or has prejudice built into how it approaches different groups and this is why you see so many more black kids excluded even from nursery school i mean the statistics are like quite mad um you know why you see so many end up um excluded but then in prison as well and so the way in which prejudice is not just in a way like it coming out and someone saying it is much easier to deal with than when it's structural

and when it's systemic within this, and it's harder for you to call it out. In 2016, you were asked to help put together a documentary on the likelihood of the UK ever having a black prime minister. Interested to know what you found. Yeah, so what we did was we took a kind of typical route to becoming prime minister. And it won't surprise you that that tends to be a very elite route through private schools, not even just any private school, usually like Eton, Winchester, these top, what they call Clarendon, expensive boarding schools for men and for boys.

And they take a route through Oxford or Cambridge and then they kind of end up as being an MP and then prime minister. And when we looked at the different likelihoods of a black person, a black working class state educated person versus um a white educated state educated and then a white privately educated there was a huge difference so it was kind of 90 times um less likely that you would get a black person becoming an mp versus this privately educated and and actually but the difference between white and black state educated wasn't as much as it was for privately educated. So that was the key. That was the key. Which leads me on to talking about Rishi Sunak, who you talk about in your book extensively, no surprise as well.

And you say that those who are using Sunak to say that the country now sees beyond race and ethnicity are conveniently leaving out that only a few hundred conservative MPs were able to choose him to become prime minister. So what I'm trying to say is that when people, and I've heard this many, many times, say we've got a non-white prime minister now, we've made it, we've surpassed those challenges, we are liberal, we are open-minded. What is your response to that? I mean, it's almost as if we've learned nothing from what happened with the Obama case in America, right? I think, you know, the thing is that Rishi Sunak hasn't faced the electorate yet. I mean, it's almost as if we've learned nothing from what happened with the Obama case in America. Right. I think, you know, the thing is that Rishi Sunak hasn't faced the electorate yet. I mean, that's one of the key key points. Right. And actually, the conservative MPs were so worried that if it went to members, that the members would still choose Boris Johnson again, even after everything.

So it's a very weak example. And in any case, Rishi Sunak did go to one of these very expensive schools, feeder schools, if you say, into being prime minister. And that, you know, that has to have, that's part of the story. Class is a really important part of the story.

His networks is a really part, important part of the story. But he would, he would still say that he said that his family worked around the clock and had humble beginnings and playing devil's advocate, he has referred to himself as a professional middle class, for example. Yeah, his parents

were professional middle class, but the school you go to, and this is really important about the education system in the country, that the power of going to these top elite schools is so much that it can propel you, it can kind of even undo some issues of race. And so class really matters and the school you go to really matters. But most of all, and this is key, the idea of representation has become an extremely shallow one

because what does it matter if we have a brown prime minister when for the majority of people in this country, not just the working class, but middle-class people in this country are struggling to pay their bills, and you know, struggling to buy a house, and you know, a disproportionate number of black and brown people on zero hour contracts and precarious jobs. What does it matter to have a few more brown and black faces at the top of society, when things haven't got better as a whole.

And this is also the other story about exception the other problem with exceptions and social mobility is that it has played into this idea that as long as there's a few faces at the top that's enough but it's not and it's not fundamentally changing society and I would argue it's in fact giving cover for some policies that are making inequalities much worse. Can I ask you about your definition of working class? I found that very, very interesting. Yeah, there's a whole big debate that happens around who's working class and who's not. And some people like these old Marxist definitions, etc. But a few years ago, and myself and the then director of Running Meat Trust, Omar Khan, we wanted to really look into

what it means to be working class today. And we did a lot of research going out and speaking to people over a few years in London and across the country, because often, you know, people don't think of working class people being in London. That's the weird story we hear about the working class. And we also wanted to speak, the working class is multi-ethnic. Unfortunately, too often we hear about just about the white working class. What we found was across groups and across country, across the country and there's a huge amount of shared experience across four areas so precariousness precariousness in terms of work and housing um in terms of lack of power and voice um um in terms of prejudice so the way in in which working class people are judged and often judged by the state.

We heard a lot of very powerful stories about people going into benefits office, etc. And the way that they were treated. And then also about the importance of place and how much working class people really invest in their neighbourhoods. And then, you know, in places like London where there's gentrification and people being moved out, how painful that is for working class people. So that's kind of how we called it the four Ps that we found this, you know, precariousness, power, prejudice in place.

And that is the working class experience. And it wasn't always the case because of course there has been times in history when we've had strong trade union movements, for instance, which has affected the amount that working class people do have power and voice. Thank you for your thoughts, Dr. Faisal Shaheen. Really good to get your insights there on what is shared in your new book, Know Your Place. Thank you for your messages on this as well. Alison says social mobility is a red herring. Surely what society needs is a fairer distribution of resources rather than the myth that only the middle and upper class people have value to society society needs to value and reward

everyone for their contributions do keep your messages coming in and i'll try and squeeze in a few more messages on the subject of diva towards the end of the program as well next we have our final part in our special series about india looking at the experiences of women in the world's most populated country. Yesterday, we heard from an organisation that is training women who are blind to try and detect breast cancer in its earliest stages. If you missed that interview, you can listen back on BBC Sounds. But today, something completely different. We are looking at the rise of women in skateboarding. Since its recent inclusion in the Olympics, skateboarding is having its moment in India, becoming more and more popular across the country. But female skateboarders face a range of obstacles trying to develop the sport.

Let's get more on this with Atitha Varghese trying to change this. She's regarded as one of the pioneers of women's skateboarding in India. She started skating at 19, where she was the only woman in the skate park. And then in 2015, founded the Skate Girl India Project and has organized events across the country to get more girls involved. And I'm delighted to say Atitha joins us now. Hi. I'm hoping you can hear us there. Good to have you with us, Atitha. We're going to try and reconnect with Atitha and hopefully we can speak to her in a moment. But in the meantime, let me bring you some more messages on the subject of diva related to that exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum.

Noreen has emailed to say, I'm astonished that you're discussing divas without mentioning Miss Piggy. It's a good thought there. This one says, My diva goddess moment was when I got married in the De La War Pavilion Theatre. I couldn't resist the opportunity to dance my way to the altar, emerging from under a spotlight on the red velvet stage curtains, wearing a vintage sequined sheath dress like Shirley Bassey and dancing to You Give Me Fever.

I made my way off the stage and towards my fiance. He was quite terrified, I think, and our seated guest in the theatres. Thank you so much, Serena, for sharing your diva moment for us. I'll try and bring you a few more of those comments towards the end of the programme. But let's connect back now to Atita Varghese joining us from India to talk about her skateboarding journey. I think that I've, you know, I've long seen women in India play cricket.

They play hockey. But skating, this is certainly new to me, up and coming. Do tell us about your journey. Yeah, so I was about 19 when I just started. And I had no idea there was a skate park in my city. And at the time, that was like the only public usable skate park in my city and at the time that was like the only like public uh usable skate park so my friend who is like one of india's pioneers um for skateboarding he like he used to come visit me sometimes and with his board and like i would just be like where are you going

with this you know and what what do you even do with this so I went with him one time and he took me there and I was like whoa like I didn't even know we had such a thing in the city so it was really cool and then I I just I ended up doing that um yeah I stuck to it it was really nice had a great first experience and then couldn't get enough so I just kept going back in the days after that and yeah I mean that's how I started um and when I started it was like a handful of people in the whole country skateboarding at that time so it was still a very very unheard of um thing almost and like yeah you're and you're 10 more than 10 years down the line now. And, you know, I'm talking about it on BBC. So it's cool.

It's come a long way. And why is that? Because there are, let's just say, restrictions, conventions that many women, especially at certain sectors of Indian society, are asked to follow. I'm just wondering, you yourself, did you have to overcome any of those challenges? How did your family react, for example? So I grew up in a family with my mother and my sister. So my mom has always been very supportive of me doing anything in sport. She's always taken me to go practice athletics.

And I've always been a part of different like school sport groups and then I also competed for like national level in athletics and I was like doing swimming and like a bunch of things and so she's always been very like for her health is super important and she's, you know, she passed that on to me as well. So, and I started skating. For her, it was, like, kind of just, like, another sport, you know, that had taken up. So, she was, like, super excited and, like, you know. Yeah, very supportive, actually, from the beginning.

But I think my, I know my story is an exception because of, like, I've had conversations with all the other girls who skate and most of their families don't accept it in the beginning until they like, you know, bring an accolade back home, like a medal or, you know, like win a contest and then they, you know, bring something back home and then they start seeing it as a positive thing. Yeah. You know, I recently watched that film then they start seeing it as a positive thing. Yeah. You know, I recently watched that film. I've been very lucky that way.

I recently watched a film on Netflix, which I know that you were involved in, called Skater Girl, where there's a young girl in a traditional village and skating is introduced to the entire village. But she really struggles to have her talent and her passion recognised by the elders in her community. Because, as you say, it does vary for different sectors of society. In many places where women wouldn't be ordinarily seen out alone or may not feel safe going out alone. So you're representing one sector almost, but it's a huge challenge for another sector of Indian society, isn't it?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I come from the city, like that film was made about um a setting in the village you know so it's a whole different story in the village um and I've seen that you know and I've gone on tours like I've done like all girls tours with um as I run this platform called Girl Skate India and I've been trying to you know get more girls to skate so I made these tours and I would go visit a bunch of skate spots so we went to some village spots as well and you know there was one village in Janwar in Madhya Pradesh where we went to do a workshop for girls only workshop and just to get participants to come out, me and a team of two other girls,

one local girl from the village who also happens to skate regularly and another friend of mine who went door to door asking each house in the village if they can send their girl to chat about this workshop and we had to easily spend about 15 minutes like 20 minutes trying to convince their parents you know that it was okay for them to come out but the parents are like oh no i'm going to jump in there because your line is slightly uh wobbly and i know that we are going to try and fix that line up to try and squeeze a couple of minutes out of you to hear more about the wonderful work that you are doing at the vargis there who is speaking to us from India about her skateboarding experience but in the meantime I'm going to bring you more diva messages because so many of you are getting in touch with

us to share your diva moments pegged to that exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London that is taking place. Morning says this message my diva moment happened when i danced at my grandson's wedding at the age of 78 i am an egyptian dancer and it was a proud moment in my life that one from darina well done darina i don't even know if i'd call that a diva moment that is just darina doing her thing we were also debating uh in our conversation earlier with tracy emin and kate bailey from the victoria and albert museum about whether or not there is a male equivalent to diva one listener's got in touch to say I think maestro is the male equivalent to diva interesting there and Aditi on that in the last minute of the program I want to

know what plans there are to take this further because you're doing a wonderful thing. What are the next steps for women, girls skating in India? I think at this point it's important that I keep supporting and doing the things I've already been doing. And now it's gaining traction. So there's other girls now who have started their own sort of, you know, chapters in their cities and they're trying to do workshops and get more girls introduced into the sport and um i think yeah we can only do so much on a ground level you know but like all in all i think it's important for like brands or you know organizations or companies

or they like to to give to create more opportunities for us to put put us in positions of, you know, yeah. To really make a difference, societal change. I can certainly hear that you're working towards that. Atithi Varughese, thank you so much for joining us here on Woman's Hour. That is it from Thursday's edition. Do join Anita Rani tomorrow. She will be live from Glastonbury, the first time that Woman's Hour has broadcast live from Worthy Farm.

Do join us then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Do join us again next time. Jason Manford here. And I'm Steve Edge. We just wanted to tell you about our new podcast from Radio 4 on BBC Sound's Best Men, it's called. And it's all about one of the most important jobs

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