Woman's Hour - Tracey Emin, Menstrual blood, Hannah Spencer MP

Episode Date: February 27, 2026

A 40-year career retrospective of Dame Tracey Emin’s work has opened at the Tate Modern in London, featuring many of the artist’s most iconic pieces, from 1998’s controversial Turner-Prize winning My Bed (1998) to her neon artworks, textiles, bronze sculptures, photos and paintings. Called A Second Life, it will explore the connections and tensions between her early career and the work she’s created since 2020, when she was diagnosed with cancer and underwent a huge operation. Tracey joins Anita Rani to discuss her body of work and her journey from controversial 90s YBA to national treasure.Anita speaks to Dr Danielle Einstein - a clinical psychologist specialising in anxiety and our use of tech and screens, whose research was integral to Australia’s social media ban for under 16s. We take a scientific look at menstrual blood - one of the few easily produced bodily fluids not regularly used for medical testing. We ask why and speak to scientists currently working in this field. Renate van der Molen is from Radboudumc in The Netherlands and Christine N Metz, from the Feinstein Institutes for Medical Research New York.And, Hannah Spencer, a 34-year-old plumber, has become the first Green Party candidate to win a Westminster by-election - and the party's first Green MP in northern England - after taking the seat for Gorton and Denton with more than 40% of the vote. Reform came second, pushing Labour, who previously received more than 50% of the vote in the 2024 general election, into third place. Anita asks the Times political Reporter Daisy Eastlake: who is Hannah Spencer? Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

And all the bizarre ways people are using. the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips. tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating

infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC sounds. But now back to today's Woman's Hour with Anita Rani. Good morning and welcome to the program. Dame Tracy Emin has a new exhibition on at the Tate Modern in London. It's a retrospective that takes you on a journey

through her life. Her work is autobiographical, confessional, unapologetic and raw. Tracy has never pulled any punches and over her career has shared intimate details of her life as a mixed race, working class woman, growing. up in Margate. Well, I went to see it yesterday and I was so moved, devastated and empowered by it at the same time and I cannot wait to speak to her very soon. But this morning, I'd like to hear from you about the power of the arts to move us and make us feel something. What has had that effect on you? It might be a work of art, an exhibition, a film, a piece of theatre. It might

even be a dance from Strictly. I'll personally never forget how Caroline Flax showdance made me feel. She was stunning. So get in touch in the usual way and tell me about that piece of art and what it did for you. The text number is 848444. You can WhatsApp the program on 0300-100-444 or you can email us by going to our website. Also, we continue the conversation we began yesterday about social media and children. I'll be joined by Dr. Danielle Einstein, the clinical psychologist whose research was instrumental in Australia deciding to delay social media. use until after the age of 16. She will be here to explain what she found. And if you have a

teenager and maybe you're struggling and you have any questions, then get in touch. We're also talking bodily fluids, but more specifically menstrual blood. We use saliva, urine and feces for medical testing. But what about period blood? What can it tell us? Unsurprisingly, the research began late, but we'll be talking to two experts about it. And Hannah Spencer, the plumber turned green party MP, who is she? We'll be finding out. That text number once again, get in touch, is 84844. But first, Dame Tracy Emmons, groundbreaking art career is being celebrated with a 40-year retrospective that opens at the Tate Modern in London today. It features some of the artists' most iconic pieces, from her famously controversial and Turner Prize-nominated installation My Bed, to her neon signs,

short films, beautiful hand-stitched blankets, photos, paintings and bronze sculptures depicting her life in all its pain, trauma, joy, love and of course art. Called a Second Life, the show also explores the relationship between Tracy's early career and the work she's created since 2020 when she was diagnosed with bladder cancer and underwent a huge operation. She's called the show a true celebration of life and I'm delighted to Welcome Dame Tracy back to Woman's Hour. Morning. Hello. Can I first say Anita, the title of the show is A Second Life. A Second Life.

And it is a bit of a celebration, so I can see why you said that. But it's actually a second life because that's what I'm feeling. I can see where you are this morning, but will you tell our listeners where you're talking to me from? My usual office, which is the bed office, I'm sitting in bed. I've got both my cats here with me, teacup and pancake. And I'm sitting in bed and I've had a cup of coffee. I've got a pot of tea next to me. Wonderful.

And I usually spend the first couple of, actually I wake up really early around six-ish and I spend my first few hours always in bed and try to delay the day. Can I say first of all, congratulations? I went to see the show yesterday and what a privilege to be able to thank you. It moved me to tears. and I said at the beginning I found it both devastating and empowering and I can still feel the impact in my body

how does it feel for you to see 40 years of your work and your life at the Tate Modern? Well, it's funny because you have this sort of like feeling of, you know, it's unreal all the time. You have to pinch yourself, not just because it's Tate and not because of all the work there, but because of the relief. And it's not just like the relief like the show is done.

It's like a massive benchmark in my life. It's like a sign of achievement. To actually have a show on that scale, on that level, at a very, you know, one of the world's greatest international museums means that you have to have achieved something. So I keep looking back and thinking, wow, wow, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this. And I relate it to when I was young and I used to do cross-country running. It's like I used to just keep up the same pace the whole time.

And then I'd find that other people would be slowing down. I'd just keep going, keep going. And then I'd come back into the school fields. And then you have to double run around the field. And I'd knock another five minutes off my time. And I'd do really well. And I feel that's how it is for me at the moment. I feel that I just kept doing what I've been doing.

And even when people made jokes about it, took the Mickey out of me, derided me for it, I haven't stopped and I've continued with my subject matter and believing in what I'm saying and what I'm doing. And it's kind of come to fruition now. People are understanding it. People are understanding why I'm making art about these subjects. It wasn't narcissistic. It wasn't all about me.

It's about something which women, typically women, go through and have to, you know, there is, when I, 30 years ago, there wasn't a voice for abortion, you know. Yeah. So things have really changed, which is good. And I'm going to talk through those pieces because you do talk about a lot in the exhibition and the abortion. Just but before that, where do you think that sort of tenacity and that relentless sort of drive to continue, whether it was you cross-country? running or with your art. Where does that come from? I think, I don't know, I always think my mum and dad gave me a hell of a lot, by default, a hell of a lot of independence. So I always had to make my own decisions and look after myself a lot. I left school 13, left home at 15.

I've always had to look after myself. And I think part of that is being defensive. And when I was younger, it was very chippy, you know, I had massive big giant chips on my shoulders. But I've turn them into art and I've worked with it all and I've used it all and I haven't hated it. I've took it on as being part of me. So it's like when always people said to me, no, you can't do that, instead of saying, oh, okay, I went off and proved and wrong. I went and did it. We get such an intense sense of who you are and your story and we're literally taken

through your life journey. And I want to start with the piece that just really struck a chord with me instantly. and it's the way we see a photo of you, your brother and your mum and your dad and you talk about experiencing racism from a very young age and that obviously I related to it and just that feeling of being other. Well, also I think, I know this is really funny because my name's Tracy and because of my voice and because of the way that I am, people never, I remember my dad collapsed once and I was rushing around and saying I'd got an ambulance

for him and everything. And people were saying to me, just leave that old man alone. Let the authority, let other people deal with it. I was going, it's not an old man, he's my dad. And people couldn't see that he was my dad because the colour of his skin was so different from mine. And I think what people don't understand is even if you look pretty white and you sound pretty white, there's going to, you had to grow up with what your parents were having to go through. And my mom and dad had a terrible time. My mom was spat at. Yeah. In ended. of all places, spat at when she was, you know, really pregnant. She was called like the N-word lover by people.

She was like she had a really hard time. And also my mum and dad weren't married. And this is 1963. So it's not like what I necessarily grew up with. It's the shadow in which you grow up with. And my mum's fear for me and my brother as well. She always felt that we were going to be bullied or treated differently. and at school sometimes we were treated differently.

So I think there's a lot of kids that go through this. And with me, I'm not complaining. I made that work. Yeah. Some of that worked 30 years ago. I had a massive show at the Hayward Gallery. Really, a lot of the work related to coming from Margate, being, you know, Cypriot and Nubian and all this sort of stuff.

And people, not one critic wrote about it, not one person mentioned it. Why do you think that is? And the one critic did say, but the really big photograph. And they said something like, and there's a large photo that goes pounds across the wall of Emin on holiday with her family. And it's not.

It's us in Turkey with my dad. But unsurprisingly, for me, it's instantly the place that I just zoomed in straight away. I thought, okay, that is the moment. You instantly know something about being an outsider or being slightly different. And you talk a lot about your body. And as women, we know, we are made to feel,

shame about our bodies. And you explore your relationship with your body in detail, both when you were younger and now post your illness and your operation. And there are photographs, including of your stoma. There's also bronzes, one of which is gigantic and outside the tape modern. How would you describe that relationship now? Well, I've always had a really strange relationship with my body and anybody that knows me really well knows that I can't stand looking at it. I don't have any mirrors in my house only for my face. I can't stand. looking at my body. I've always hated it.

I've been radically thin in my time, like the thinness was about six and a half stone, I think. And I've never been anorexia. It's a very different thing. It's about the less of me, the happier I am. The more of me, the less, the less, I don't like feeling heavy. I don't like feeling, I like to feel heavenly. I like to feel light.

And I'm just having to come to terms with having great regretted again and feeling being 62 and all of these things. But this is what keeps me on the earth. So even though I might not like the way I appear, actually at the moment, I really like the way that I am. So it's like getting a balance with things. No mirrors in your house. Not body ones, no.

And then I'm actually instantly thinking about the polaroids of you with your body and also the sort of you painting naked and those photos. So what do you feel? when you see those. I'd sort of think, Christ, Tracy, what the hell were you moaning about? And it's like my mom said to me, my mom said this really brilliant thing to me. I was looking really glam and really low. And my mom said, what's wrong, Tracy?

And I said, I'm so old. And she said, Tracy. And she got her finger and she pointed at her own chest. And she said, Tracy, this is old. This is old. And she said to me, in 20 years time, you're going to think you're old. 20 years ago you thought you're old. And she said, you've got to, like, live for the day and rejoicing what you have.

And she's so right. She never used the word rejoice, actually. It would have made her feel sick, I think. But it's like since the cancer, every day is so much better. Every day I feel like life is, even if you have to fight on something or you have a battle for something, it's worth it. It's worth doing it. Yeah. Because every day is special.

And now I spend so much more time living for the present, living for the moment. And it's making me stronger and better. And I can do much more because I'm dealing with now. It's funny that you said that you said that to your mum about feeling old, because I would say you have a timeless, youthful energy about you and a vibrancy. Like even now, looking at you, I'm like, ageless. What role? That's what I think it is.

There you go. Agelessness. I want to go back to the exhibition and the work and take you back to, I mean, because you know, you quite early on in the exhibition were confronted with these beautiful embroidered blankets. Lots of handwritten essays and lots of them feature details, quite harrowing details, of you being sexually assaulted. You were raped at 13 and the attitudes you had to deal with at the time. And, you know, there's a bit that I read about how your mum dealt with that when you got home. And then there was something that you wrote that I'm going to read out to you. You said at 13, I realized there was danger in beauty and innocence, and I could not have both.

This would be something I would battle for the rest of my life. Yeah, well, I think, you know, I always say this about girls. In Margaret, there was a really high teenage pregnancy. When I say teenage, I don't mean 19, I mean 13, 14. when I was young, a lot of girls had babies when they were really young, and everybody just presumed these girls were stupid for getting pregnant. Well, they weren't. These girls, some of these girls were highly intelligent, were far more mature than their peers or whatever,

and they grew up much faster. Yet there was no guidance for that. My mum put me on the pill when I was 14, because my mom knew she wasn't going to stop me from having sex, and she felt that it was better that I did these things and didn't end up having a teenage pregnancy, and that I had a bit more control over things. Now, whether anyone thinks that's wrong or right,

I eventually got into education, I got a degree, I've become an artist, all of these things. And there's a really good film in the show. It's a conversation with my mum, and it's about my mum telling me why I shouldn't have children. I love that. Yeah, it's very amusing and very funny, and people mustn't take my mum wrong,

because my mum's also rising. You know, she's making me, like be very confrontational with her and it's very, very funny. But in that conversation, my mum says some really good poignant things about her life and about why she didn't want me to have a life like hers. And I think that, you know, I went, going back to the cancer, when I had the cancer, one of the things that I really, really meant was I thought, thank God I don't have children.

To suffer that and have children. and to suffer the responsibility of looking after other people and being the artist that I am, I don't think I could ever do that. I couldn't ever do it. There's some really, I really enjoyed that conversation, by the way, sitting down. You have to sit and watch a small screen, and it's just the different layers and levels of the exhibition as well.

It's just really well put together. There's two other videos, big screens, well, there's three, including the trip to Cyprus, but there's one which is called Why I Never Became a Dancer. and that's from 1995, which details a really horrible incident of you entering a disco competition, and you were humiliated by the boys and the men. But that was actually the moment you realized I'm leaving Margot.

Yeah, but also that's a really big, it's all true that. But also it's a big metaphor because I wasn't just called a slag on the dance floor. It was when I walked down the high street. Yeah. I was called Slag. Or when I went into the coffee shop, because I'd slept with these people. And I was very, very young.

And, you know, in the film it's about triumph over adversity. It's like about surviving. And at the end, I survive by dancing. I carry on dancing. And it's all a big metaphor for being understanding a way out, understanding a situation. And I think no matter what harm that happened to me when I was young, I've used it all and I've made the most of it in my art.

I haven't let it beat me. That's the important thing. I've survived through it all. And then the video where you are having a conversation about your abortion. Yeah, well, that's not a conversation. That's a 25-minute film, which usually has a warning on it because people faint. I would never have had an abortion if I hadn't have been pregnant. That's what I will say.

And people don't understand. What do you mean by that? Well, I didn't know I could get pregnant. I was told I couldn't get pregnant. so I wasn't expecting to get pregnant. And then when I was pregnant, I was pregnant with someone who didn't want me to have a baby. And they made that very, very clear. And I wasn't in a position to have a child or look after a child,

or even at that time look after myself. I had nowhere to live. I had absolutely zero money. I was in a very bad mental state. There was no way I could have had a child and looked after it. I couldn't have done. And I think for a lot of women that go for abortion, they don't choose to have an abortion.

It's absent. They have no choice at that time. They have a few weeks to make a decision that's going to last for the rest of their life. If they have a child, they have a child for the rest of their life. Either way, it's really, really difficult if you don't know what to do. And also, I grew up with a single mom. So I knew what it was like.

And I didn't want, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to, I didn't want that. happened to a child that I would have because I just knew I didn't have the response. I couldn't have that level of responsibility. Yeah. And it's really interesting for me when I was watching that that film and the previous one about you being a dancer

was watching the expressions on all the other people watching at the same time. And I felt that as the women were watching, there was so much of what you were saying we could feel in our bodies or the wanting to protect. the little you and I thought how brilliant that the men are here to hear this as well well a lot's changed over the last 10 years yeah a hell of a lot and you know I mean over

lost 30 since I made that film 30 years ago you know if that film had been shown in a in a museum or gallery people who just walked past and thought what she rambling on about much the same with why and ever became a dancer I acted one of the reviews from that time said and there she is spinning around, dancing all over the place. They didn't listen to what I was saying because they saw me as being some sort of narcissistic ego which I wasn't. I'm an artist.

No one says that about Van Gogh or even Sheila or Ebramonk or whatever. So how much do you think you would judge more harshly because you were a woman trying to exist in the world? I don't think I was just judged harshly for being a woman. I think I was judged harshly for being malphine. and also often, because I drank a lot, because I was sort of wild, it appeared that I didn't take myself seriously.

So in defence of those people, I would say, if I appeared not to be taking myself seriously, there was a reason why they may not take me seriously, but they should have looked at my work. Instead of denouncing it, they should have thought, why are people making a fuss about this work? Why are people talking about it? And of course, the people that were talking about it were the young people,

which are the people that are going to go to my show in drones. Absolutely, they will. And one of the most iconic pieces in the show is your 1998 installation My Bed. It won the Turner Prize in 99. It was Turner Prize nominated, sorry, Turner Prize. Should have. You were robbed. You were robbed.

Caulsan Upra at the time. I loved, I watched a clip of you being interviewed by, Laura Kunzburg and reflecting on how that different that bed would be now and the thread count that your 1600 thread count that you love now. Was there a moment when you realised I am successful or I've made it? When did that happen? Honestly, there's two answers to that. My first time was when I had my exhibition at the South London Gallery and I got out the taxi to go to my opening and there was a big queue and I thought, oh, I must leave. really early. It hasn't opened yet. But actually, it was the people cue in to get in. And I thought, oh, wow, I'm an artist. People are looking at my art. And I think any artist who have an exhibition and sees people looking at their work feels that, feels that sense of

achievement. And then I suppose every day that I make art in my studio and I work hard and I feel like I've found out something new about painting or found out something new about the way that I think that's when I think, yeah, I've made it because I'm still doing it and loving it. What about when Madonna turns up to Margate? Do you feel like, yes, I made it? For those of you don't know, you need to follow Madonna and Tracy on social media, but Madonna's social media posts went viral when she was in Margate and it seemed to provide a real moment of joy for her. And she said, I'm going to say what she said about you because it was gorgeous. She called you a pearl, a precious necklace that's been draped around a seaside town in England called Margate and

call the community you've created there, remarkable, adding that whenever I go there, I feel like I've entered a dream. How did the town react to that visit? And what beautiful things for her to say? Margate is so cool. Yeah. Margate is so LGBT plus.

Everybody just went, wow, Madonna's here. How cool is that? Everybody just loved it. And nobody gave her a hard time. She looked around at all the art. She was just, it was just so appreciated that she came. But also, I've got to say, it's not the first time she's been there. And I said to her, I reckon you're going to move here one day.

So she loves it. She just really genuinely gets to get it. And I think it's because it's cool. It is cool. Yeah. It's cool anyway, but you do make it very cool. And you're doing a lot of work to build a community there. How have you found the experience of teaching, supporting other artists?

I love it. Yeah. I've never thought something would make, I actually had sort of secretly did, but it makes me so happy. And because I really think the educational system in this country, excuse my French, is totally, totally marked up. I was going to use the F word bottom. I'm really happy you didn't. I'm really happy.

Thanks. I have to remember now I'm a dame. So, no, the educational system in this country is in such dire straits. It's awful. And instead of me moaning about it, I'm doing something about it. And not only do we have the tears, the Tracy Eminatis, residency, the studios. We also have performance classes, dance classes, life drawing classes. We're going to now do a thing where we outreach into the local schools. Artists from the studios

go into the local schools. And all of this is for free. All of it. Beautiful. Beautiful. We love it. And I started the program by asking our listeners, because I was so moved by your retrospective, and I am going to go and see it again. What moved them? What piece of art by somebody else has moved you? Well, when I was 22, I went to the Tate Gallery, at Millbank, which is now Tate Britain, for the first time in my life. And I was looking for expressionism. I was looking for art that I related to, looking for Monk, looking for Even Sheila. But as I walked through the museum, I came across this abstract, yellow and pink painting, and I stood in front of it, and for whatever reason, I just broke down in tears and couldn't stop crying. And it was a Mark Rothko painting. I didn't know

anything about Rothko. I sort of didn't like abstract painting. I didn't understand why it affected me so much. I went back to college. I looked up Mark Rothko and found out that he was incredibly spiritual. He was, he committed suicide. He was an incredibly troubled artist, but made the most beautiful, serious, profound philosophical work that is basically sunset. and horizons and that's what I relate to. Beautiful. Dame Treancy Emin, thank you for joining us this morning. Not that you need it, but best of luck with a retrospective.

Thank you. Thank you. Dame Tracy Eminen there. Keep your thoughts coming in. 84844. And we apologise for any offence caused by any of the language used. And if you feel that you've been affected by any of the issues raised in the discussion, there is help available on the BBC Action Line website.

Tracy Emin, a second life will be at London. tape modern until the 31st of August this year and front row discussed the exhibition on last night's programme and you can catch that on BBC Sounds now. I'm going to read a couple of your messages because you are getting in touch with pieces of arts that have moved you. I recently went to see Jodie Comer in the play Prima Facey

a phenomenal performance which reduced me and many others to tears a spotlight shone on a very relevant subject. Thank you Jody and another one here. I still remember having a transformational experience when age 41, 14, I was transfixed by a tiny marble sculpture of a man on a horse and the archaeological museum in Athens. I remember thinking what an exquisite object

created by human hands over 2,000 years ago. It inspired me to be creative and now age 60, I'm a freelance textile artist. Tracy Emin is so eloquent and insightful, isn't she just? Now, last week, the Prime Minister announced a series of proposals aimed at limiting what ministers say are the harms social media composed to children. And next week, Liz Kendall, the Technology Secretary will publish the terms of reference for a consultation.

But in December, Australia went further, introducing a world first, an outright ban what they call a delay on social media for under 16s. Here in the UK, the government says it will speak to charities, academics, parliamentarians and crucially young people and parents. Some say there are issues with children sleep disrupted by late night scrolling, rising anxiety, the pressure to be constantly visible online. So when we talk about government action, What would meaningful change actually look like?

And can legislation really protect children in the digital world they're growing up in? Well, Australia's approach drew in part on the work of Dr. Danielle Einstein, a clinical psychologist in Sydney whose research focuses on anxiety and technology use. Danielle, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. I saw you enjoying that Tracy Eminent interview. Very powerful stuff. Remind us what the policy is that the Australian government,

brought in for young people. We have expect, we now expect social media platforms to put in reasonable steps to prevent people under the age of 16 setting up accounts on their platforms. You call it a delay, not a ban. That's right. Why does that matter? Because what, what we're doing is actually part of a multi-layered approach. So it's actually just the first step.

And I think it's really important to understand that it sits. within many mechanisms that have to be put in place and that what it's doing is it's actually changing, first of all, it's asking the platforms themselves to have a bit of skin in the game. So a 10-year-old can't just press a button and say, I'm 16 or I'm 13 and then set up an account. That's the first thing. And then the second thing it's doing is it's actually changing the systems around our children.

So what's happened is that schools, for example, who were previously, if it was a Google school, a child would join that school and they'd get automatically given a YouTube account. Well, that doesn't happen anymore. And teachers don't inadvertently use social media in a way to make the lesson more exciting and say, upload your homework that way. And what we've seen so far already is that parents are feeling empowered. it. Okay, and we've actually seen a change. Two years ago, one of the schools measured the year seven students at the beginning of the school year. Yeah. And 98.4% of them were on social media.

They had accounts in year seven, the beginning of year seven. That numbers dropped to 36% in a school that I asked for their data last week. So we are changing this by changing everyone's attitude and understanding. It's not just the platforms. It's actually, everybody realizing that social media does not help mental health at all and it's causing problems more than just the algorithms. Well, let's get into this because you are speaking directly to a lot of parents listening as well. We need to talk about your research because it played a crucial role in shaping this policy. So what did you, I know there's lots, but what did you find? What is it actually doing to young people and their minds? So my research is about how we handle uncertainty and how it's

leading to anxiety. Right. Okay. It's critical because if someone doesn't like uncertainty, okay, we've seen in the research that actually the more they want to be organized to be able to plan, to be able to not be surprised, the greater number of psychological disorders they have. So they're more likely to have both anxiety, depression, and eating disorder or three anxiety disorders than only one or, in fact, none. Okay. And so what we've done is we've given children devices and, in fact, adults as work. to say, here, you can, the moment you're experiencing uncertainty, let me reach out. I'm going to reach out to my mum.

I'm going to block the feelings, right, with a game or with a video. And what that does is it grows, it makes a person feel like they can't handle uncertainty. And that's one of the basic skills you've got to be able to learn to manage as you're developing emotionally as a human. What will the knock on effect be? Well, that's just the, so that's an anxiety that I'm talking about. It's also the key to what drives us in to pick up a phone when you think about positive uncertainty, which is dopamine, if we have time, I'll explain that in a sec.

But I guess the other part is that as I was... What do you mean? So just explain it now quickly. Okay, sure. Don't leave us hung it up. Okay, so if you hear a bit of a sound on your phone, right, You'll reach out to have a look because you'll be thinking, oh, what's there? Maybe it's something good.

And think about this as a student. Maybe my friend wants me. Maybe they've reacted to my social media post. So they pick up the phone, they look at it and guess what? Instead, it's a message from their mum saying, don't forget to hang out the washing. What happens? The dopamine has gone up when they heard the sound. They pick up the phone.

They see the message. It's negative. They feel bad. It lowers their mood because you're expecting something. And it's the same for all of us, right? If you're cooking, let's imagine, right? And you just see your computer, you'll think, oh, what if that problem that I am dealing with from work has been resolved? Oh, I hope it has.

Let me just have a quick look. So you've got this anticipation. You look, then it's not there, but there's a whole lot of other things. And you drown in that device. And that is actually, because you only get rewarded some of the time, it's intermittent conditioning. It's the most powerful form of condition we have. And that's what leads to that addictive pool that we need to recognise. We spoke to two young women on the programme yesterday,

and I know you were listening, Charlotte and Sophie. And there were friends of Molly Russell who took her own life in 2017, following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. And they talked to us about their experiences of being children and teenagers with access to social media. For any of you who didn't hear it, I'm going to remind you. here's a clip. Yeah, I mean, I remember I had a phone quite young because my parents had split up, so it was a communication device only. But I do remember when social media started coming about

and like just the instant pressures. And because it's so gradual, it's so quiet, you don't realize it's happening. And then, yeah, all of a sudden we're 20 years old. And the validation that comes from these apps now from likes, shares, I mean, I know they've taken like counts away and such and such. But I think we're ignoring the bigger picture, if I'm being honest. I think social media needs to be looked at and regulated in many more ways than just Molly. But I think the action that is currently being made is the only way forward. And it is really now or never.

There you go. You talked about it. And she's talking about the validation. Now, they describe themselves as being guinea pigs of tech. And in the UK, there isn't currently a blanket age ban. But there are new Online Safety Act measures and a consultation on a minimum. minimum eight, minimum, get the word out, age for access to it. So based on your experience, what should UK policy makers be thinking about? I think the first thing is we need to get rid of

mixed messages about benefits. So social media is actually, and social media use is actually impacting brain development. It's impacting young people's ability to, like their memory, their decision making and their focus. Okay. So we've got to get really clear messages out about the harms. These are serious harms that we are just inflicting on children before they have that age, right? So the first thing I want is I want a cut on all the misinformation that's out there, okay? Because when you don't have clear information out there about the fact that there aren't benefits to mental health at all from social media, it's the comparison. So first thing is let's clear up the misinformation and have a public health campaign.

that helps parents make the right decisions and empowers schools to make the right decisions. And that goes alongside what, that goes alongside a minimum age in which you're expecting the platforms to do something. Yeah. Have we reached, are we reaching a tipping point? Do you think, like in the way that the same way that smoking,

we got to a smoking band, seatbelts were enforced? Yeah, well, I think your health professionals and your schools, your teachers, your principals, I heard from them yesterday. They're all recognising it. The teens themselves recognise it. And a really interesting finding from New Zealand came out. 39% of 13 to 17-year-olds said they wish social media hadn't been invented.

32% said it would be easy to give it up. And that number doubled to 61% if they thought their friends would give it up too. And last question, Danielle, and I think it's really important because parents just don't know. And there are some people who have said, you know, it's actually fine because my child is okay with it. Or it's 16, they're turning 17, it's too late. Practical advice for parents. Parents watch their own social media use as well. Talk about it, cut it down, watch your addictive use of technology and put in, I call it like tech-free zones.

Like sit on the, make sure that there's a rule now on the couch that none of you do it. So I think parents, we all need to recognise what we're doing. and model healthier device use. Put it out of sight, out of your way, so you're not pulled to it. And kids watch, they copy what we do, they don't listen to what we say. So we've all got to make small changes in our lives, recognising what's going on. The rates of depression are incredible.

They have more than tripled. And young girls are having, like, the numbers, two in three in Australia of young people will have a serious episode of depression and one in two girls are having a chronic course of depression. That's three times depressed better. That's not something to ignore. And it's got to do with a self-comparison. It's got to do with how we handle uncertainty.

And it's got to do with not being performative, not showing off, and putting it out to a whole group at that young age. It's got to do with learning that we can have friends, message them, and take the time to work out how they respond to us, not put it out to the public before I know that people like me for me, that I'm okay with how I look, and that I'm going to, that I can do things by myself. Okay, that's the other thing.

Having an audience in your pocket is not helpful for mastering the sorts of things that Tracy talked about. Yeah. Right? She had to get active. She pushed through her art. She did things that no one thought she could do. And you get over anxiety by doing these things by yourself.

It's not because your mum told you you could do it and certainly not in the moment. So fascinating and really powerful. Thank you so much, Danielle. And thank you to the listeners who shared their experiences on the issue. Yes, you understand. Can I just add? I've put all the evidence out there for everything that I'm saying in the Einstein report because I want that misinformation out of the way.

So please look that up. And I've got experts from Australia speaking about the brain development. Everything that I say is traced back to research and to the early childhood learning as well where there's not educational benefits for having these screens. There is so much invested bias out there stopping people from calling out what's going on and we as a community now need to call it out and say that's not happening for our children. Thank you. It's a continuing topic on the program and we'll be coming back to it. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard on the program, do go to the BBC Action Line for links

and support. Dr. Daniel Einstein. Thank you so much. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week. and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, a couple of weeks ago, we covered a new story about research into whether menstrual blood could be used in testing for cervical cancer. Given that most bodily fluids are regularly used for test results, most commonly blood, but also saliva, urine or feces, it made us question why menstrual blood isn't used. And we started looking into the area of research, which is relatively new. Well, two scientists who are working on menstrual blood research, join me now. They are Christine Metz, PhD Professor Feinstein, University for Medical Research in New York, and Renata van der Mullen, Associate Professor and Laboratory Specialist Medical Immunology, Radbound University Medical Centre in the Netherlands. they just trip off the tongue.

Christine and Renata, welcome to the program. I'm going to start with you, Renato. Tell us what your research in this area found. Tell us about menstrual blood. First of all, thank you very much to explain the brilliant use of menstrual blood in this program. My research is focused on the role of the immune system in reproductive disorders. And I already started more than 15 years ago investigating if we could study immune. cells in menstrual blood. And we wanted actually a non-invasive method to obtain these immune cells

from the anemeterium, so the inner lining of the uterus. And we thought that we could use menstrual blood for it. Because if you use biopuses, that is an invasive technique, yeah, you need skilled personnel to actually take these biopsies. And it's also difficult to obtain these biopies from healthy women because they have no use to or no, there's no issue for them to let these pipes be taken. So menstrual blood is really a really good option. We have showed that it is a brilliant source of immune cells and easy to collect and it's waste, so you don't need any medical ethical permission to take it or to study it.

What's it made of? So it contains cells, so immune cells, but also fibroblast, there's mucus in it, there's mesengymal stem cells. These are the source of other types of cells are so very important cell source to regenerate the endometrium. And there's also hormones in it and a little signal molecules that are necessary to trigger. the endometrium to prepare for a possible pregnancy, which quite a good material. Christine, let me bring you in. When did research start in this area? Oh, wow. Well, I have to say that when we entered in 2013 starting to study menstrual blood, Renata's work had been published, and there were studies that used menstrual blood for the isolation

of stem cells to study not women's conditions, which we use menstrual blood to study the uterine health, but rather focused on regenerative medicine. And those stem cells were found to be incredibly useful for that. And a couple of companies popped up to biobank people's stem cells for regenerative purposes, but nothing for studying uterine health, which is. it is so valuable for. And Renata started her research 15 years ago. You started in 2013, and nobody had up until that point thought about thinking how it might help women.

Doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for hosting such a program because you're providing knowledge for women and knowledge is power. Absolutely. And clearly, it has been ignored. It's been dismissed. We study women's health conditions that are often dismissed.

And it comes with no instructions. Menstrual blood for some is you rejoice because you didn't get pregnant that month. For some folks, and others it's dismay because they're trying to get pregnant. And other than that, it's hardly studied for uterine health. Well, it's just seen as a taboo. And it really is a window. Yeah, or it's seen as a taboo or it's just. just dirty. I mean, what might menstrual blood testing be able to help with, Christine?

So we launched the Rose Research Outsmarts Endometriosis Study in 2013 to leverage menstrual effluent, as we call it, for studying endometriosis, which is a painful condition characterized by the growth of uterine-like cells outside of the uterus. So the uterus is not closed and each month you have a period, some of that period blood goes into the abdominal cavity where most of those lesions form. We also study it for understanding infertility, which is clearly a condition sometimes associated with the uterus itself and also to study environmental exposures to toxins. So unlike any other part of the body, the uterus, gets flushed out every single month

and in it contains cells that are not only immune cells and non-immune cells, but also the actual endometrial tissue. So it provides an endometrial biopsy that's natural and very easy to collect at home that

can be very easily studied in a laboratory and provide information. Talking about collecting, Renata, how do you collect the blood and are women willing? Yeah, we collected with a menstrual cup. It's actually, you can sell it or buy it everywhere in every drugstore. It's an environmental product.

So you can easily use it. It's just you fold it and you insert it like a tampon and we can then collect or keep the cup in for about 12 hours. And then we asked the women to remove it and discard the flu. it in a tube with collection medium and then they send to the lab and then we investigated. And we collect actually the first 24 hours or up to 36 hours because we wait any longer than the sample source is not really the first layers of the endometrium anymore. You're looking more at the dilution with circulating blood. So it's important to use this first 20m.

24 hours. Well, Christine, menstrual blood changes throughout a woman's cycle, doesn't it? It's pretty clever. Can he tell us a bit about that? So initially, as Renata said, the tissue that arrives out, either through a menstrual cup or a menstrual disc, can be studied. And it's really critical. And what happens with time is that the composition of the menstrual blood changes. So it becomes variable over the menstrual cycle. And it's critical, just like Renata does for her research and her work, we study the menstrual blood within the first about 36 hours because it maintains a more constant composition.

And this is a question for both of you. What's the potential for this? What could the future look like? Renata? I think it's something that can use as a diagnostics to look at problems like endometriosis, what Christina Metsis is developing, but also for monitoring drugs that delivered locally or in patients that are using, for instance, autoimmune drugs in. in patients with autoimmune diseases, we don't know what these medication do on the enumetrium.

So we would like to know if this is affected and if that actually can later on affect a pregnancy, if these drugs are safe. So you can monitor actually or you can also monitor treatments for patients with, for instance, recurrent miscarriages. doing at the moment some lifestyle intervention, so looking at the effect of sports, exercise in patients with recurrent miscarriages, and also looking at the effect of nutrition in patients with endometriosis. So we collect menstrual blood before and after a three months intervention with either exercise or nutrition, and look at if the composition changes. And it does, actually. So we know now, I already know that the nutrition affects also the inflammatory profile in the

metriosis patients and the pain gets less. So we are now doing a really big study in 250 patients, so we're quite excited about that. Yes, and I know that lots of our listeners will be excited by the thought of this research as well. You must come back and tell us when you've got your findings. And Christine, for you, what are you excited about? What's the potential for this research in the future? Well, if we get a little investment in this area of research, the possibilities are really endless.

There's endometriosis, uterine fibroids, chronic infections, acute affections of the uterus, adenomyosis, which is an endometriosis of the uterus, infertility, endometrial cancer. There are so many conditions of women affecting the uterus and how other bodies, conditions affect the uterus that are completely not understood or incompletely understood, I should say. It's just an endless possibility out there. And I think we will discover new conditions that affect the uterus that have never been described before by investing in this area, getting past the yuck factor. Women really want to provide their menstrual blood. In our Rose study, we have 3,700 participants. We rarely find anyone who doesn't want to participate

in research. Yes, great. Come back to us when you have your results. Thank you so much. So fascinating. Christine Metz and Renata van der Malen. Thank you. Now, Hannah Spencer, a 34-year-old plumber has become the first Green Party candidate to win a Westminster by-election and the party's first Green MP in Northern England after taking the seat for Gorton and Denton with more than 40% of the vote. Reform came second pushing Labor, who previously received more than 50% of the vote in the 2024 general election into third place.

So who is Hannah Spencer? Well, joining me on the line now is Times political reporter, Daisy Eastlake. Daisy, welcome to Woman's Hour. What do we know about Hannah Spencer, the new MP for Gorton and Denton? Who is she? Yeah, so Hannah Spencer is a 34-year-old plumber, plasterer, tradeswoman,

who's just won this historic by-election, actually the Green's first by-election win. And yeah, so she's a plumber, she's a plasterer. She's from born and raised in Manchester. And she's also a councillor on Trafford Council. She's the leader of the Green Group there. So she's kind of established in Green Party politics up there. And yeah, now she's their first northern MP.

Her backstory was core to her messaging. Let's hear some of her speech. I didn't grow up wanting to be a politician. I'm a plumber. And two weeks ago, during all this, I also qualified as a plasterer because even in chaos, even under pressure, I get things done. I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That is what we do.

That's just a snippet of her speech. after her results, she said she's a plumber, she's now a plasterer by trade. What style of politician would you say she is? I'd say she's quite similar to this new Zach Pallanski type of green politician that, you know, that we've seen kind of burst into the foreground in the last few months. She's very upfront. If you ask her a question, she'll answer it.

You know, she's very, you know, she doesn't mince her words. She's quite clear on what she thinks. And, you know, like as you've seen there, her whole campaign was kind of centred around that and around being, you know, a bit of a woman of the people. You know, it's centered around the fact that she's a plumber, she's a plasterer. I think at one point she said when she was talking about the barriers of Westminster, she said, you know, every rule I've come across, I've literally knocked down. It's like a central part of her entire campaign. So she doesn't kind of shy away from saying what she thinks.

She also talks a lot. She talks in that speech. I mean, you can tell us, but, you know, talked about community. communities as well. And she talked both about the Muslim community in the head where she's from and the working class community. Yeah. So the Muslim community was incredibly important to this vote in Gorton and Denton. The Greens have a very strong and evidence stance on Gaza. And they've said that quite a lot throughout the campaign, but also just generally since kind of that conflict kicked off. So that was quite a central part. But also her being a white working class woman has also been a central part of. that and she doesn't shy away from that.

You know, her speech, her victory speech kind of centered around this idea. I think she said, working hard used to get you something. You know, she's speaking to, as you heard there, the people in her constituency who, she says, you know, we work hard for a living and that money doesn't feel like it goes very far anymore. And as a plumber and a plasterer and somebody who, you know, goes into people's houses, she says, I'm always in people's houses. I know exactly what, you know, these cost of living crises and what these pressures look

like for people because I'm literally in their house fixing their sink, you know. So she kind of centres a lot on that. And I think that that's kind of how she brings those two quite pertinent issues for the Greens, you know, cost of living and also international affairs, together quite well. Her campaign wasn't without controversy, though. No, no, definitely not. And I think that that kind of points to the fact that the Greens knew that this was a very important seat for them.

You know, when the by-election was announced, I spoke to Zach Pallant. scheme, he told me, you know, this couldn't have come at a better time. We wanted to prove that we can also win elections, not just do well in the polls. And I think that's kind of proven by the amount of controversy that was in this by-election. It was kind of remarkably high tensions because of everything going on in Westminster with Labor, but also because of the newfound test for the Greens. So, yeah, she had some big controversies, the big one being the drugs policy. So the Green Party have a policy of wanting to legalise and regulate drugs. And that was something that was brought up a lot in the campaign.

And also, you know, there were accusations from Labour and from reform that the Greens were kind of weaponising, you know, the anger in that community about decisions taken in Gaza and circulating videos in Urdu and Bengali and the Greens make the argument, well, there's lots of people that speak lots of different languages in this seat. Why would we not speak to them in the languages that they speak? So it was quite a feisty campaign to be. sure. I mean, it was previously thought of as a safe Labour seat, but reform came second in the vote and weren't that far behind. How do you think she'll get on with the communities that didn't vote for

her? Well, I think, you know, that you can kind of see this from her victory speech that she's talking more about, you know, working class issues that she's kind of channeling. And she knows that a lot of the people that will have voted for reform will be people that feel under the cost of living pressures, that's for sure, and feel like Labor hasn't fixed that for them. And so she's kind of speaking to them in a way. So I think she will match her party's national stance on things like, you know, the war in Gaza, on wealth taxes, on, you know, all of their more national policies with her own experience of saying, look, I'm working class, I'm a plumber, I'm a plaster, you know, I'm going to go into Parliament and speak for you. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much

for enlightening us there, Daisy Eastlake, political reporter with The Times. Thank you for joining us this morning. I'm going to end the program with a few of your messages coming in about pieces of arts that have moved you. Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake moved me to tears every time I see it. I have three sporty sons and have taken two of them to see it and they were blown away. The emotion and physicality coupled with the powerful music, it's just fabulous, have to agree. I won't see David Hockney's exhibition in London some time ago. It blew me away. The landscapes in his Yorkshire home in winter were fizzing with colour. and then one here as a 61-year-old creative woman, Tracy Emin has been a constant inspiration in my life.

I saw her bed when it was at the Saatchie Gallery. One of my fondest memories is having to dive-tackle my then two-year-old daughter as she made a dash for Tracy's bed. Join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Alan Davis, and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science. This is Life Without, where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life and watch what unravels.

Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be worrying about where their favourite snack was. And we'd bring it down to earth. David Beckham. I can imagine him putting that on the socials. My bees of my girls have all disappeared. Sometimes we patch it up and crack on. We will survive.

We will survive. Humans are ingenious. is our hallmark property. We should prize above everything else. But sometimes it's bigger than us. Join me to find out just how far the unraveling can go. Subscribe to Life Without on BBC Sounds. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.