Woman's Hour - Tracey Emin; Women and Nightclubs; Young Children and Mental Health

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

Tracey Emin was one of the leading figures of the Young British Artists movement of the 1990s. Hers is a uniquely provocative, confessional style which confronts issues such as trauma of abortion, rape, alcoholism and sexual history. Her famous artworks include: Everyone I Have Ever Slept With 1963–1995 and she came to greater prominence in 1999 with a Turner Prize nomination for her famous piece My Bed. One of her most powerful works is a hand-crafted quilt called Psycho Slut, with texts that recall her childhood abuse and personal trauma. She has recently undergone radical surgery for bladder cancer. Tracey joins Emma to discuss her latest exhibition - The Loneliness of the Soul – for which she has selected masterpieces by Edvard Munch to show alongside her most recent paintings.Last weekend the first nightclub event in the UK for over a year took place in Liverpool - with no social distancing or face coverings required. This was part of a trial to provide key scientific data on how clubbing events could safely reopen as part of the government's roadmap, which aims for all restrictions lifted by June 21. But could this be a fresh start and a chance to re-imagine how nightlife could be reopened in a way that makes women feel safer? Although clubs can be places where women have a lot of fun and let their hair down, we also know they can be intimidating spaces. Bryony Beynon is the Managing Director of the Good Night Out Campaign, Alice Fuller is the manager and co-ordinator of Corsica studios at Elephant and Castle in London and Jess Flaherty is a reporter for the Liverpool Echo who actually went clubbing last weekend. How can you better communicate with your child, whatever their age, to help ensure they have good future mental health? The broadcaster and author of 'There’s no such thing as Naughty’ Kate Silverton, and Dr Sheila Redfern from the Anna Freud Centre discuss.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Hello. What is your release? What gives you your kicks? Is it dancing, singing, drinking, cooking, painting, sport, supporting it all, playing it? While it's been extremely difficult on many levels for the last year, we've also missed out on so many of those things that give us some buzz, take the edge off, make life feel alive. Those things have been closed or restricted, but it is coming back. And today I want to hear about your release. What is it? Let us know. 84844 is the number

you need to text. We'll get in touch with us through our website or on social media at BBC Women's Hour. My first guest today, Tracey Emin, is here to talk about her new show, which was only open for nine days before closing due to Covid restrictions, her shortest show yet, but it is coming back and I'm sure she'll have plenty to say about releases and how

she kicks back and lets it all out. Also, talking of releases. Also talking to a nightclub manager and to someone who attended the UK's first club night at the weekend. The Liverpool experiment, which saw more than 6,000 people come together without social distancing, having taken a Covid test simply to feel the beat, dance and let themselves go. Take me there now, I say. Dancing, that is a release, one I adore. But sadly, it has been kitchen discos this year, which doesn't quite have the same sense of wild abandon.

We're going to hear firsthand on how it went down in that Liverpool warehouse from someone who was there, but also what's changed. And is this potentially the opportunity to redesign clubbing post the COVID break? Perhaps change things that have always been there that don't need to, maybe make it less predatory, but without taking away that mating element of the jungle we'll be talking to a couple of women with expertise in this area coming up later on the program but keep those messages coming in on what gives you that release what lets you let it all out 84844 is the number you need but the unmade bed the quilt featuring everyone she'd slept with and countless stunning paintings

provocative videos and sculptures. Tracey Emin is prodigious, meticulous and a real grafter. Hers is a uniquely provocative confessional style which confronts issues such as the trauma of abortion, rape and alcoholism. Now comes the collaboration with a male artist who's been dead nearly 80 years, in the years she didn't expect to see after being diagnosed with very aggressive bladder cancer. The Loneliness of the Soul, for which she selected masterpieces by Edvard Munch, the Norwegian artist most famous for his iconic screen painting, to show alongside her most recent paintings, opens up again at the Royal Academy in two weeks' time. She's here with me in the studio. Good morning, Tracey.

Good morning. Thank you for being here. It's so lovely to have a guest in the studio. So nice to be here. And you're here with your fan. Keep it yourself cool. And Ed, Edvard Munch, talking about him and what he means to you. Let's start there. Because why have you collaborated with him? Well, I've been a massive Munch fan a aficionado, since I was about 17. And up until then, I was aware of artists like Andy Warhol, Roy Lichtenstein. And then when I came across Expressionism, first of all, Egon Schiele through David Bowie, his album covers Lodger and Heroes. And then going through the only bookshop in Margate, Albion Books, I came

across one book on expressionism and there was a one picture of Edvard Munch's work in it and I just saw it and I just thought wow this is me, same as Deacon Sheila. I suddenly found these friends and not knowing whether they were male or female or anything I related to those images this sort of kind of angst and emotional way of making art and so since then Munchers but I did my thesis on Muncher art school I I've just been totally in love with the man basically my thesis was called my man Munch and I even remember the opening sentence, which was, he was not a wild, woolly Norwegian running over fields. That's how it started.

I always saw Munch as being someone who was incredibly compassionate and also very feminine in his way of making art because he was dealing with emotions that at that time a lot of, well, even now, men don't deal with. So I identified with him as a human being, which was really important as an artist so young to latch onto something that I understood and I felt that I had to, I needed to express. And this was someone who was saying to me with their work that it's okay, it's good to be free, emotionally free within your work. And you touched on there his relationship with the female sex and his representation of women. Yeah, well, people sort of had this mad idea that he was like this sort of gruff, you know, crazy Norwegian.

But he wasn't. When you look at all his work sort of analytically and you realise that he was, you know, there was Freud and this and that and psychoanalysis was coming to the, you know there was Freud and this and that and or psychoanalysm was coming to the you know forefront then but Monk was much more Jungian and he was like looking at like this sort of in the inner soul and like time immemorial feelings jealousy fear hunger desperation anger loneliness and that's what he dealt with, things and emotions that everybody understands. It's about primal existence. And I'd say that Monk 30 years ago was wholly, wholly unfashionable,

almost like a joke with the scream, you know, and the work being stolen. It was all the cartoons and everything. Whereas now, I think, especially during the pandemic, people really need emotion. They really need true feelings and they need it clearly identified so they don't feel ashamed within their own emotions and that things are easy to express. And Munch does that.

Munch does that better than anybody. And what have you picked from your own work? Could you give us an example? We are on the radio. Could you perhaps describe something that you've picked to go alongside what what when you're picking and going through his archive what were you thinking to try and bring from yours um we I was curating the show with the curator in Oslo and also with Harry who works with me Harry Weller and we we did about five trips to Oslo.

And we went through all of, like, one day we went through 800 of Munch's paintings. And the Munch Museum is like going into the Bank of England. It's like going down into these deep bank vaults and these kind of like, you know, submarine doors that you open and then they open out and the air is at a certain temperature and you've kind of got this aprons on and everything and there's all these hundreds of racks and you pull these racks out and all these monks come, you know, like five or six monks at a time come out on these racks.

And at the beginning we were going, like this kind of orgasm over these paintings. And then after, you know know two days of this we go no no that isn't very good god he must have been so influenced by matisse at that point what was he doing yeah and we hadn't become blasé but we'd become so entwined with with monk and and yeah i suppose a little bit blasé with the work, but it was phenomenal. It was fantastic. And so what I did, first of all, almost like went with an animal show because Monk was a fantastic painter of animals, you know, and because I love my cat so much, it seemed like Monk's dog's my cat,

you know, perfect show. But then I realised that my issue at the time was loneliness and that's what I wanted to make a show about. And Munch depicted this emotion so well within himself and his self-portraits and also about the isolation, like a kind of existential position of being inside looking out and understanding that there's isolation completely surrounding you. So if you take something like the monk, I mean the scream, everybody thinks the scream is screaming, but it's not.

The scream is covering its ears and it's the landscape that's screaming. And that's how monk works. It's like an inside outside. So what you see in the picture, which first of all very obvious usually you have to flip it around and and then you went and looked to find some of those expressions of loneliness within your own work it well actually it was quite easy with my work it didn't take me long and uh and and what was interesting we spent three years working on this show and curating it and putting it together and and of course most of

that time I had cancer without realizing and so when you go to the show and you see the images that I chose for my work they're quite bloody you know and they're quite painful and there's a lot of womb-like images and and a lot of blood and a lot of um I'd say, bloody emotion, heartfelt, bloody emotion. But, of course, at the time, I had no idea I had cancer. It's just coincided with it all. Let's come back to the exhibition and some of those questions that come from what you're saying about loneliness and pain in a moment. But you have brought up your cancer.

You are cancer-free at the moment. Yeah, at the moment. Every time I say it, I think, I should have waited a year to say that but you know I had such nice wishes from people that I think it all helps yeah positive energy but it was very aggressive wasn't it aggressive bladder cancer yeah you know I'm laughing because it was pretty shocking yeah it was unbelievable it all happened within three weeks the whole finding out that diagnosis the prognosis and the surgery,

it was pretty phenomenal. And that surgery was also aggressive, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. What did it entail? I had my bladder removed, I had my uterus removed, my fallopian tubes, my urethra, part of my intestine um uh my lymph nodes and part half my vagina and it was quite funny because when the surgeon was telling me what i was gonna have to have removed and and then he said sort of said my urethra i said you're joking aren't you i said please tell me there's nothing else anything

else anything else yeah and he goes actually there is your vagina and i went and that was it i just was like i was laughing actually but i think i was just putting on a brave face at the time i mean what else are you gonna say when they almost like a menu actually there was there was another part of my anatomy which luckily they saved okay so i don't know if i can say it on the radio but clitoris Yes, you can, you're on Woman's Hour I'm very relieved to hear that I'm sure you were No, last time I think I said something like that on Woman's Hour I got banned for about four years

Well no, welcome, welcome I don't think you were, I'm happy to have you So no, that's very good news because I did read that you'd quite like your vagina back Are you able to talk about that and get to that point? I think a lot of people would be really interested because it's kind of interesting.

I think anyone that's had this sort of dramatic surgery understands what I'm talking about, but actually there's not that many people. And I think it's probably the same as maybe someone who's had a sex change about what you would have to do to get it back. But at the moment, I'm just really happy getting my life back about what you would have to do to get it back. But at the moment, I'm just really happy getting my life back and I'm not being greedy and I'm just really... Like, I go from, you know, I go from deliriously happy

to, like, you know, kind of, oh, dear, now I've got to get on with it. I think it's a bit like having a baby. You have a baby and, you know, you're pregnant and it's really difficult, the pregnancy, and then you have the baby and you think, oh, now it's for bit like having a baby. You have a baby and you're pregnant and it's really difficult, the pregnancy. And then you have the baby and you think, oh, now it's the rest of my life. So now with this surgery and with everything, I sort of was so happy to be alive. And now I've got to get on with the consequences of it all and things.

And I suppose just coming back to what we were talking about with your art and what you're trying to share with people, you're living a life changed now through your surgery and a life in pain I imagine at times or certainly with discomfort and additional issues yeah but I had a lot of pain before with the cancer not knowing for quite a while without knowing and then also because I had to catheterize and that was horrific I'd catheterize about six seven times a day and if anybody knows what that entails they know what I'm talking about so in a way pain is pain we all bleed you know and we all suffer and it's finding a way to deal with our suffering that's important

not actually the suffering it's finding a way to deal with the pain and we all have different levels of pain within our life some people I mean you know live through phenomenal like things that you could never believe that they could survive and you do you do survive and my analogy to this is like it's like I've fallen out of an airplane I landed and I was picked up and I was put back together again so I have this sort of survivor instinct of how lucky I am but also having to now pay much more attention to the world that I'm living in and not take it for granted and make the most of every moment really and be and be patient and be more um yeah I'm sounds weird but I've never been so happy. Really?

Yeah. So some people would be very unhappy in my situation now, but I realise how amazing my life is, and I never realised before. How do you cope with pain? What's your strategy? Well, my strategy, well, my surgeon said to me, is there nothing that you're not afraid of? And I said, yeah. He said, what is it? I said, torture. And he said, yeah, because there nothing that you're not afraid of? And I said, yeah.

He said, what is it? I said, torture. And he said, yeah, because they won't kill you. I said, no, they'll keep you alive. So once you accept death, once you've accepted that, pain is okay because the worst thing that can happen or the best thing that can happen in that situation is you die. And once you've accepted that, chances are you're going to live because you don't have to deal with death anymore you have to deal with living so when I was in so much pain not from cancer but from the surgery oh it was

unbelievable and I just knew that and then once I once I knew that they'd got all the cancer I knew that the pain was I was getting better so once you know that and you've got this positive side does you just keep going it's like running a race when you see the finish line you get this extra strength to keep going and it was like that and I just thought just this bit just this bit just this bit and I'll be okay. Why do you think we need to see and hear about and we love doing it in a way other people's pain why do you think we need to see and hear about, and we love doing it in a way, other people's pain? Why do you think we need to go, for instance, to an art gallery and see how much pain you, Tracey Emin, have been in with, in this instance, with loneliness or Edvard Munch? It's really interesting you should say that because a lot of people didn't, did they?

A lot of people slagged me off for it. A lot of people said we don't want to hear, like 20 years ago, people said we don't want to hear about her rape we don't want to hear about her abortion we don't want to hear about her loneliness we don't want to hear about her upbringing we don't want to hear about her child abuse yes you do because society needs to hear about those things and discuss those things because they're still happening and now now, thanks to, you know, Me Too and other women campaigning, I have an open forum to talk about what I like without being called a moaner or a whinger or a whiner or a narcissist. Being raped at 13 doesn't make me a narcissist if I talk about it.

The same as having full-blown aggressive cancer and losing my bladder and living with a urostomy bag doesn't make me a whinger or a moaner if I talk about it. It means I'm opening up a doorway for other people to discuss it, other people not to have secrets, not to feel ashamed. Why should I feel ashamed because I was raped when I was 13? Why should i feel ashamed because i was raped when i was 13 why should i feel ashamed because i have a urostomy bag that bag's keeping me alive all of these things can be turned around and made into positive energy not negative energy and i'm not talking about like being born again or seeing the light or anything like that i'm talking about a practical way of living and getting on and surviving and i can prove it works because I'm here.

It's that simple. But I also wonder if, as you say, the world's caught up with what you were doing and that you were called a whinger and a moaner and a narcissist for. But perhaps when, I don't know what your view is on this, when men put forward some of their issues, they haven't had the same label. No, Van Gogh didn't, did he? I mean, God, what a brat he was.

Van Gogh really annoys me, regardless of what an amazing artist he was. You know, Van Gogh lived off of his brother and when he had no money, it's because he refused to take it. He was like, you know, would only do what he wanted to do. He sulked continuously, if you read his letters.

He was a great poet, great writer, but he... But nobody shamed him for that? Nobody at all. They all said, oh, God, he's really feeling it. He cut his ear off. He did this. He did that. You know, and it's like it's seen as an accolade towards his conviction, towards his art.

You know, and the same with you can talk about Rembrandt. Oh, we can talk about Picasso and all the amount of women that he had we've got so many messages coming in uh about what I originally asked which I'm going to ask you as well about release and how people get their releases but also for instance one here saying I'm shouting at the radio yes Tracy keep talking baby love you with a big kiss uh so nobody wanting you to to shut up about you know passion art clitorises or otherwise tracy emin how do you get your releases i mean we're going to talk to somebody who went clubbing over the weekend in liverpool would you go back in the club it's certainly not for my clitoris anymore that's

for sure you know but no actually i'm not a great clubber because of my here because i don't like loud me i can't cope with really loud music and i'm a bit envious of the clubbers because 6,000 of them all had an amazing time in Liverpool which Liverpool is one of the best cities in the world to have a good time yes it is and meanwhile 40 people haven't been allowed to go to my show once an hour and I think the government has kind of really got a kind of look at the figures and and all the people in Liverpool you know they know that they're being used as a guinea pig they know that but they're just so desperate to party. And also they've all had the tests and everything.

But I wish the government could have been more conscientious about education, art and the release of going to museums and art galleries. How happy it makes people feel. But beyond, I mean, and it's about to happen again and there'll be a whole debate about lockdown and the sort of release of it but beyond art and if you're not in the clubs what what what gets you out of yourself because you've been is it yeah swimming and of course now swimming's difficult I'm not going to be hanging out in public pools really that much but um um yeah swimming physically moving in water I love. I love it. I love it. That's my big calming thing, my big thing.

A lot of people have been missing that because of things not being available to them. And we've had some messages to that effect. I've got to ask after your spouse, the rock, the stone. You married a stone in 2016, not a rolling stone, a very fixed stone in france was it yeah how are they my stone you still married yeah but of course i haven't seen him for quite some time and uh and i might be looking elsewhere you know but the whole thing about the stone now this is the truth okay so i've got this land in fr where my studio is, and we cleared off all this, like, you know, bush and vegetation and everything, and this giant rock boulder appeared.

And I just thought, oh, my God, that is the most beautiful stone I've ever seen. And decided, because I found this little ring and put it on my wedding finger and realised that that was unlucky. So I thought, what can I do about this? And if I took it off, I'd have to throw the ring away. didn't want to do that so I just thought get married now stone I love the stone I married the stone but later we cleared off some other land behind the stone and I found another giant great big boulder and I reckon the fact the year and a half that I haven't been there I don't know something might have been going on between them.

I'm not sure. So you might have to focus on finding love closer to home. I might have to, yeah. I might even have to go, it's really funny, if I ever have a crush on anybody or like someone, my friends say to me, first of all, they go, male, female, human. Yes, they've got to check now what's going on go male, female, human. Yes, they've got to check now what's going on.

Exactly, human, yeah. Well, I think a lot of people, because you planned this before the pandemic, but it was very apt, will need to engage with something called the loneliness of the soul, as the show is called. Tracey Emmett, it's been delightful and fascinating in equal measure to talk to you. Yeah, great, brilliant. Nice to come out. Thank you so much. And you're not banned fascinating in equal measure to talk to you. Yeah, great. Brilliant. Nice to come out.

Thank you so much. And you're not banned. You're welcome back. Thank you. I'll make the most of it. That's the show between Tracy Emin and her man, her monk, Edvard Munch, which opens at the Royal Academy on May the 18th.

You have been getting in touch to talk about your releases. And this is ahead of our conversation about nightclubs. Let's just go through a couple of these here. Rock climbing with Gerry, my climbing partner, perfectly poised, focused, absorbed, just keeping with the rock theme.

It's a flowing dance when it's going well, says Katie and Ken. The sandstone rocks are my oxygen tanks and how I find my balance in life. The Self-Isolation Choir, reads this one, joined in March 2020, includes singers all around the world. Founder is based in Dorset, musical director in Bristol.

We are the busiest choir in the world. All done on a YouTube channel, many concerts online. It's kept me sane and been a lifeline, says Gina. Good morning. My release was part run. I always came back on a high. Will it ever come back, says Tom, who's listening. Festivals are the release I need from real life.

It's true escapism. Anything goes. It's a escapism. Anything goes. It's a joy and just to be, to share a love of the music and be with people, a new community of strangers, says Lucy.

Linda, who's 73, it's dancing for me. Linda, I am utterly with you on that. And last weekend, the first nightclub event in the UK for over a year did take place in the great city of Liverpool.

No social distancing or face covering required for the 6,000 or so people that took part over two days. Part of a trial to provide key scientific data on how clubbing events could safely reopen as part of that government roadmap, which aims for all restrictions to be lifted by June 21st. But could it be a fresh start, a chance to reimagine how nightlife could be reopened in a way that prioritises women's comfort? Although clubs can be places and are places where women have a lot of fun, we're getting a lot of messages to that effect, let their hair down. We also know they can be predatory spaces. Brian Ebanen is the managing director of the Good Night Out campaign.

Alice Fuller is the manager and coordinator of Corsica Students at Elephant and Castle in London. And Jess Flaherty is a reporter for the Liverpool Echo who actually went clubbing last weekend. Jess, let's start with you. Was it any good? It was. I mean, I was surprised by how nervous I was before going. I felt really, really anxious. I even actually had my partner come in the taxi with me and wait outside um just in case it got a bit overwhelming I just felt better knowing that that someone I know was there um but he you couldn't get you couldn't get a plus one sorry is that right that's why he doesn't normally just sit outside clubs for you unfortunately I had to go by myself so I put on my sequin flares to try and make myself feel confident

um and as soon as I got there the nerves quickly dissipated because the energy was just so positive everybody was just so keen to to be out and to have that taste of normality and even though you know that everybody had been tested and you knew that it was uh safe and it was part of the um the pilot events as the experiment to see if nightlife can go ahead it was still quite daunting um and anxiety inducing and it um what those nerves quickly did go because every everybody was just so excited and the atmosphere was electric i bet i bet and a lot of people who've been there also talking just about that need and we played a bit that music at the beginning you know you're free to do whatever you want to do i bet the crowd just was going wild

whenever those sorts of tracks were played well when they went it was dj yusuf that came out to that song and when they when they played it they timed it perfectly so that on that line you're free to do what you want to do. Confetti just shot into the air and the crowd just went wild. Everybody was jumping and cheering and singing along. It was like a battle cry. Everybody was just absolutely loving life. Yeah, and you're loving life right now because you're talking to me on Zoom

and I can see you and your dog's walking behind you on the back of the sofa wagging their tail. He's been asleep next to me the whole time and he hates me speaking welcome crawl all over me let's get alice in on this who who runs a club manager of uh corsica students as i say alice what's it like at the moment planning to reopen and do you think this is an opportunity to change things? Yeah. Hi, everyone. Really happy to be here. And really interested in this particular talk as well, because it's such a confusing time, because on the one hand, we're really excited about opening.

And on the other hand, it's just like, how do we actually do this? I mean, for us, we're looking at something that, well, we haven't done anything at all for a year. And it's like, how do we deal with this ethically? Because it's not just about, right, OK, we've got this big money-making thing that we've got to get back into. We're kind of not really interested in that. It's more about, right, how do we do this? How do we make a really nice gradual progression into being open and not just some huge party where it's a bit risky and so yeah we're trepidatious um but also really excited

um and we also see it as we've we've had a lot of time to reflect and think about how can we actually restart this with different goals different targets how do we make it a safer space have you got have you got an example of what you might be doing? Because, of course, social distancing wasn't, you know, instructed or made inflicted upon the crowd the other night. But, of course, having more distance could be a benefit in some ways. Yeah, I'm quite interested in that because, obviously, we haven't been allowed to touch for so long.

Is that going to actually, is it going to exacerbate the situation once things get back to normal and everybody just feels like flinging their arms around everyone and there's a bit of a lack of social control? Or will it be that for a while people are just kind of anxious about touching each other and so therefore we manage to continue a little bit of kind of that safety that that distance between physical bodies um i'm not sure how it's likely to go i think that it could go one of one of either ways um i think for for a while obviously we're kind of relying on the fact that people won't be able to touch each other and so hopefully that'll kind of feed into the fact that if we do start to implement a little bit more consciousness about sexual harassment in in venues and going out then

maybe this is this is the place to start because we're at a really base level you know let's bring in brianie to this who's been thinking about what a good night out could be for everyone for for some time it's safe to say brianie what do you think we could use this opportunity to to change about how we club without losing one of the main reasons people go out which is to meet other people absolutely i mean everyone has the right to transcendental experiences and i really love that we're kind of talking about this in terms of of release you know some of my yeah most uh transcendental experiences have been on the dance floor or on the stage and we want that for for every woman and for everyone and um I think that something that is important is that we do grasp that sense of we don't have to do things how they've always been done we don't have to um

expect or accept things the way that they've always been done but if nightlife is going to be about fun and freedom rather than fear I think we really have to look at what's underneath the drivers when it comes to gender based violence in nightlife. And I'm working currently against the clock with hundreds of venues who really want to have a best practice policy in place before they reopen. And I think that's a really positive thing to see that there is that kind of pushing up the agenda of sexual violence. Could you give some examples of what could be different? Yeah, absolutely. So part of the work that we do in terms of kind of that intervention is about making sure that every single person who works in that premises has an idea of what to do and what to say. If somebody does approach them and say, you know, I've been harassed or I've been assaulted or I've just witnessed something.

Because unfortunately, you know, nightlife is very often very low paid, precarious work. And people aren't given that training or that support every time. We want to absolutely ensure that things like making sure that there's, you know, zero tolerance to racist door policies, for example, that also feeds in. Making sure that there's a kind of harm reduction approach to things around drugs and alcohol, so that if somebody has been excessively drinking or taking drugs, that doesn't become a barrier to them coming forward to seeking support, because perhaps of fear that there's going to be police involvement when they needed help because they've been groped, for example. There's lots of things that we could be doing differently.

I think on a broader level, there are issues around licensing objectives and new clubs, which will hopefully be opening one day again, making sure that within the licensing objectives, there are specific things around the prevention of gender based violence that premises have to speak to, because that currently isn't the case. So I think definitely club by club, it's great that there's this individual sense of what can we do differently. I would also like to see some government intervention and some kind of policy level stuff that looks beyond unworkable ideas like undercover police officers outside clubs and looks more at how do we support and fund our really important nightlife sector. You're referring there to some of the suggestions that have been recently made by the government in

the light of Sarah Everard's murder which we did talk about at length with the Home Office Minister on this programme raising some of those concerns. Jess to bring you back into this having been clubbing one of the few in the country at the weekend, what do you think could be different? What do you not like about clubbing at the moment that you wish would take a hike post-COVID? I have very big issues with being touched without consent. And I think that that's just something that women accept because it's just so ingrained into how we live that um I just think there's no need for a person to put their hand on the small of my back to move me out of the way you know you can if you absolutely need to touch somebody to get past tap them on the shoulder don't make it seem like it's predatory and my hair's instantly set on end the second that that happens and it just seems like you're not even allowed to say don't don't do that I don't like that please

don't do that to me and I'm hoping that because we're so used to social distancing I'm hoping people will have a different attitude towards touch obviously we want to get back to normal we want to hug our relatives we want to feel that connection to people that we love and care about but in regards to strangers and respecting people's boundaries i hope that there is a cultural shift there and that people respect our bodies enough to to not touch us if you don't have permission to touch somebody you absolutely shouldn't be doing that no matter how packed a club is. I suppose it's just interesting to think back, you know, it was such a normal part of going to a club as a woman. It's sort of, it's baked into the price of it.

And obviously there's clubs where that will happen to men as well and experiences too. But just that you will be touched in areas on your bottom, the small of your back, you know, when you don't want to be. That's just how it is to be on the dance floor. And while what you've said is true, that we've got you all used to being socially distant, I wonder if that can ever be the case in a club with booze, with drugs, with all sorts going on. I know it's my hope, but I may be wildly naive about that.

And yet the same time, Alice,'re crying out to to just get out there aren't we and and and and be together what do you make of what you've heard about some of these suggestions as someone who you know runs somewhere a club that people are going to be coming back to i agree i mean i agree with all of it basically um i mean there needs to be a unified approach by all venues um and i think there has to be an approach that that it comes from both ends so basically we started the stopping people stopping mainly males from from actually any form of non-consensual approaches to to females or males well anyone really stopping them from doing that at the at one end but at the other end it's about what we actually do to for women for people who complain

about issues that they've gone through if we actually start if we concentrate on those on either end then maybe we'll meet in the middle and something will actually change at the moment if we don't actually do something about listening then nothing will will ever get done women at the moment feel that they can't actually go to anybody because it won't nothing will happen it won't be escalated and it won't go anywhere which is kind of the problem with the undercover police situation. It's just really where you're introducing a situation that where you're bringing an authority into the situation that women don't necessarily trust because it won't go anywhere. So really, until we actually have a unified approach across the country with all venues and some kind of policy-wide situation, nothing's really going to change.

That's where we have to get it sorted, you know. Alice, how good is it going to be to have those doors open again, do you think, though, on a note of why people go to venues like yours? Yeah, I mean, basically everybody is gagging for it at the moment i mean i was literally saying to somebody that the other day we were talking about booking tickets for somewhere and i was like do you know what if they brought back take that right now i'd book tickets so i'm sure gary barlow is a big listener to woman's hour he's got the memo yeah obviously people want to get back to it and everything but i just think it's such an ideal opportunity to reintroduce some kind of, I don't know, some integrity, some ethics back into the situation. Make it about having fun. It's supposed to be about having fun, not being scared.

We'll see how this plays out. I'm sure we'll talk again. You're listening there to Alice Fuller, who's the manager of Corsica Studios. Jess Flaherty, a reporter for the Liverpool Echo, our correspondent on the ground of what it's like to go clubbing, that rare thing at the moment. And Bryony Bainan, who's the managing director of the Good Night Out campaign. You're getting in touch with about your releases and also what you want to see. Keep those messages coming in. For instance, just to get to this one from Katie, who says, my release is to grab my bike, jump on an overnight ferry to mainline Europe and just start cycling. I carry everything with me. And sometimes I start at the top of a country and head south without knowing where I will lay my head that night.

Sounds like ultimate freedom. Nothing else can give you that buzz of well-being and freedom. I cannot wait to get back on that ferry with my trusty steed. A different sort of freedom here. One more to share. on that ferry with my trusty steed. A different sort of freedom here. One more to share. Sowing seeds and seeing them germinate. I've grown some Christmas trees for the first time this year. Really exciting. The Colorado spruce are doing really well. They're getting good vibes from across the pond. Talking about good vibes and what's going on in your homes. How do you parent a healthy brain and lay the foundations for your children's

good future mental health? The pandemic has put a spotlight on children's mental health. And a recent YouGov study revealed that over half of parents with children under five have struggled to cope in the last months of lockdown. The broadcaster Kate Silverton has written a book, There's No Such Thing as Naughty, and has been studying to become a child psychotherapist and been volunteering as a counsellor at a London primary school. Dr. Sheila Redfern is a consultant child and adolescent clinical psychologist and head of the family trauma team at the Anna Freud Centre. A warm welcome to you both. Kate, why zero to five? Why was that the focus for you? Well, because those are the critical years and actually probably conception to five, the critical years in terms of laying that brain, the good foundations for future mental health.

And I think that's in the past, perhaps we've known less about that. So there was a big focus on that, although it has been said by Peter Fornegy, the CEO of the Anna Freud Centre, that it's actually a book for parents with children of any age. And the lizard, the baboon, tell us about how these characters play a role. So I, through my own interviews with psychotherapists, psychiatrists around the world, I really wanted, I wanted to learn how to parent a healthy brain to my children. And what I was learning blew me away because I thought, wow, once I understand how the brain works and influences my children's behaviour, my parenting changes.

I become more compassionate, calm, curious about what's going on rather than just seeing a child's behaviour as naughty. So I literally in the past year have distilled the brain down into three animals and a bear battery very quickly. The lizard is our survival brain, which regulates how we sleep, eat, our balance. It's also a driver of that behavior. If you think about a baby's urgent cry, that's the cry that says, I'm hungry. It's all about survival. That's very much driven by the lizard brain. And it's also involved in fight, flight, fear, and the stress response.

And that's the thing that probably hasn't been as widely known until now. So think about the little lizard. Then we have our baboon, which is all the typical toddler behavior influencing that it's the limbic system in the brain it drives all those big emotions and sort of the rage the anger the joy and it also houses the brain's fear center the amygdala so it's kind of on the lookout it's our defense system and that's a lot of the behavior that we'll see in our toddlers is driven by those survival, the lower brain, the lizard and the baboon. And then we have this beautiful wise owl that sits up in the canopy of the bear battery. She has perspective. She can calm things down and regulate emotions. She can look out and see the

big picture. That's our prefrontal cortex. the the big headline really is for our children under five they have more of a fluffy owlet than a wise owl so that's why we say there's no such thing as naughty because they don't have this lovely wise owl perspective that's our job as parents to grow and develop and nurture that empathy and resilience that comes with the wise owl as a parent of of a three-year-old i feel more like a baboon quite regularly in the way that I seem to feel or approach things. But maybe I'm just talking about myself. I'd love to be a wise owl, as you describe it.

To bring in Dr. Sheila Redfern, what have you been seeing or how do you think we can tell, perhaps maybe it's too early, but how the pandemic has affected children and specifically these younger children, because there were reports out about what's happened, for instance, to children's language and language skills. Yes, well, we've seen three different groups emerging, and it is a little bit early to tell exactly how things are going to pan out because we're still in it to an extent. But the younger children certainly have had the greatest changes in emotional, attentional and behavioural difficulties. So parents of younger children, particularly those sort of four to 10 year olds have seen significant changes. And the peaks of

those kind of changes are at the times of the most restrictions. So we saw a peak last June, 2020. And we've seen another peak again, this February 2021, when restrictions were at their highest. And that seems to relate to the fact that at February 2021 when restrictions were at their highest. And that seems to relate to the fact that at that time, parents are at their most stressed. So the clear connection is that the parents' capacity to regulate their own emotions and cope with this really stressful situation during lockdown, it has a very significant impact on their child's mental health and wellbeing. And then the longer kind of consequences of that are that the impact on mental health and well-being then impacts on physical health, impacts on educational attainment. So you see this relationship between the three.

And I think that what we're going to see are the longer term effects when we're sort of beyond the lockdown. But there are a group clearly who have elevated mental health problems. And importantly, those groups are from the groups that are already disadvantaged. So if you're from a low income family, if you're a child with special educational needs, if you're a child in care, if you're LGBTQ, you're more likely to have elevated mental health difficulties during the pandemic than other groups. Kate, no such thing as naughty some will definitely disagree with that but from what sheila's just said and we've only i'm so sorry got a minute or so left if it's about the is it only then about the parents response to it is that

what you would say not only i mean look a big part of it is going to be our response you just mentioned that i think once parents can recognize and I work with a lot of families behind the scenes in a lot of the charities who really benefit from the help that charities like the Anna Freud Center can give I think when we can take away shame and blame in parenting and instead as you just said that I can realize that I'm stressed I'm trying to answer 15 emails and wipe a bottom and no wonder my baboon is up and out of the gates. I can then actually acknowledge that it's not me being a bad parent. I can calm myself down and go into my, use my sort of more cortical thinking and go, actually, guys, I'm really sorry. Mummy's just worried that you're going to fall down if you're fighting near the stairs.

Should we all sit and read a book? And it's about our own regulation as parents and how we can emotionally regulate. So I talk a lot about that in the book. So I think at the moment, never has there been a time to support parents, particularly with young children. And we can do that when we can help us all get rid of the blame and shame and actually understand all of our behaviour. And we can do that when we understand how the brain and the body is driving that. Kate Silverton, there's no such thing as naughty is the name of the book. Dr. Sheila Redfern, thank you to both of you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Glenn Patterson, and I'm here to tell you about

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