Woman's Hour - Tracey Neville, Deep fakes and schools, Pensions

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

In netball, once you’ve got the ball you have to pivot. It turns out that skill can be applied just as neatly to careers for Tracey Neville. The former England netball coach joins Nuala McGovern to discuss her new role as the new managing director of the Stockport County Women Football Club.A new medical device to assist at birth is now in use in eight NHS trusts in the UK and 40 hospitals in the whole of Europe. The OdonAssist can replace forceps in many situations and is a much gentler way to deliver a baby which is stuck in the birth canal. NHS Specialist registrar Dr Emily Hotton has worked on the UK clinical trials. She describes how the device works and why it can give a much better outcome for both mothers and babies.New research suggests the age of 28 is a key turning point for women’s finances. Investment platform AJ Bell says that’s when many start to fall behind on pension savings. And women retire with around 48% less wealth. Charlene Young, Senior Pensions and Savings expert at AJ Bell explains.Mina came to the UK from Iran 15 years ago. She is appearing on Channel 4’s Your Song, a new series celebrating the power of music and storytelling. Growing up where women’s voices were restricted, she learnt to sing secretly as an act of quiet rebellion. On the show, she performs a song that has followed her from childhood through exile to her new life in the UK. For Mina, this performance isn’t just personal — it’s about representing millions of women still silenced. She talks about identity, resistance, and what it means to finally reclaim her voice.An online safety group, the Early Warning Working Group, is encouraging schools across the UK to rethink how they use photographs of pupils online, amid growing fears that images taken from school websites and social media accounts are being stolen and manipulated into sexually explicit content using AI tools. Nuala speaks to Carole Osborne - a mother of two daughters who used to work in school communications. After hearing growing concerns from parents and headteachers about AI-generated abuse imagery, she decided to try to do something about it herself. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Tracy Neville, MBE, a legendary figure in Netball is with us in just a moment to talk about changing lanes. She's now the new managing director of Stockport County's women's football team, a lot to talk about. Now, you never know where inspiration might come from. There is a major innovation in childbirth, and it has come from an Argentinian car mechanic

looking at a loose cork in an empty wine bottle. I've just had, what would I say, a go trying it just a few minutes before I came on air, so we're going to hear more about how it works from those who are using it. We'll also have a performance from Mina. She is a woman who left Iran 15 years ago to live as a refugee in the UK.

Now, Mina sees herself as carrying the voices of women that are restricted or silenced in her home country. I'm looking forward to hearing her sing. And we'll talk about why 28 is a crucial age for women when it comes to their long-term finances. So that's all coming up. But also I have a question for you. Do you post pictures of your children online? How did you or do you make that decision? Does it cause you any concern for their safety or privacy?

You can text the program. The number is 844-844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-44-4. Because related to that, we'll be speaking to a woman that has created an app

in an attempt to prevent cybercriminals from blackmailing schools. There have been cases where sexually explicit AI deep fakes of pupils were made using, photos that were taken from school websites. And as you've been hearing in the news bulletin, the first government minister, Miata van Bula, has resigned and urged Kierstarmar to set a timetable to quit,

as the PM is facing his cabinet right now. He has vowed to fight on. It is a story that's moving very quickly, so you can go to BBC.co.com.uk forward slash news for our live page, and that does have the latest reports and updates as they come into the BBC. But let us turn to Netball. In netball, once you've got the ball, you have to pivot.

No running off. Just head up and find a new direction. And it turns out that rule can be applied just as neatly to careers for my next guest. Because joining me now is the former England netball coach, Tracy Neville, who has made a huge career switch or pivot. After stepping down from her head coaching duties with the Melbourne Mavericks Mavericks Netball team that was last year, She's now the managing director of the Stockport County Women Football Club and she's aiming to turn it from a volunteer run community level club into a superpower for women's football.

No mean feet. Welcome Tracy. And just waiting to hear if I have Tracy there on the line. Not hearing her at the moment. So what we're going to do is I was mentioning to you just a moment ago. Just before the news, I had two women in here. And they were helping me or showing me how they are using a new medical device. You might know for decades the tools that have been used to assist women in labour have barely changed. It's been forceps that have been around in one form or another, would you believe, for hundreds of years?

You might also be familiar with the vontours. that is a sort of vacuum cap that can be used also to help deliver babies what they call operative vaginal deliveries. But there is a new medical device that has been introduced and it's now in use in eight NHS trusts. It's called the Odon Assist

and it's designed to cause less trauma to babies and women giving birth. My two guests have come in we just had a problem with the line with Tracy Neville so we're going to try and reconnect to her. But in the meantime, sprinting down from our green room were Dr. Emily Houghton, who's the NHS obstetrician based in the South West,

who's been involved in clinical trials off the device, the Odon Assist, and also Charlie Fuller, who's vice president of the company behind the device, maternal newborn health innovations. So good to have both of you. I was telling my listeners that we did have little behind the scenes, that you were showing me how to use the Odon assist. Definitely the first time I've done something like that before coming up. on the program.

Start explaining it, Emily, for people who are completely unfamiliar and perhaps have never even seen a forceps in their life, never mind this. Yeah, of course. It's a completely new way of delivering babies. And it works through a soft air cuff that we sit the whole way around the baby's head. And that air cuff is designed to be more gentle for babies to cause less trauma to the baby, unlike the devices that we use already. And then that air cuff is what the operators use to help guide the baby through the birth canal

because it's attached to some handles that we use to help control the delivery. But the device is made to be kind of used by birth attendance around the world and for women to help be active in their birth and support it with pushing. It's so interesting and we'll get a little bit more into it and why it's so important. But Charlie, I want to come to you for a moment because many women who are listening who have gone through a birth that was assisted in this way with the vontuz, a vacuum,

or the forceps, which is very common, of course, you got involved after experiencing a forceps birth with your daughter, Edie, who's now nine, and it really left an impression on you. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so my daughter, Edie, she was delivered after a failed four-seps attempt, actually, and it went to an emergency C-section. When she was born, she had significant bruising to her face. The foreps were actually misplaced, so they went over her face.

opposed to the side. And as a result of that, she really struggled to feed, which was quite, you know, heartbreaking for me at the time. I desperately wanted to breastfeed. And her, because her mouth was so incredibly bruised and sore, she really struggled. She also developed jaundice, so the bruising caused a spike in bilirubin in her blood. So we ended up staying in hospital for longer. Well, I mean, there's a lot there. And you're talking about your daughter and she's well now and she has recovered completely which is lovely to hear but it can also emily be an issue for women that they can be harmed by forceps yeah and you know the the problem with the devices we have is they are life-saving but they all come with risks so when we are offering assistance

at the end of labour through a vaginal birth it is because we feel that is a safest thing for mum and baby but we appreciate that the devices and the tools we have available to us come with some risks to women. And it is mad if you think how medicine has changed. It's in 1950s. This is the first innovation in childbirth since the 1950s. And you think about the kind of lack of representation of women's health and research and innovation. You know, it's mad that we haven't looked at this before and it's a hard thing to do. But if we can make something that is safer for mum, safer for babies, that women want an alternative. And we know and we've researched that and we know that women are happy and really willing to kind of support investigation into a new device,

that we need to do it as the clinicians and the multi-professional team supporting birth is our duty to do this. We need to describe it a little bit more, I think. Let me see. As the novice, how would I describe it? Almost like a giant tampon applicator, but with a plastic bag on the end of it that inflates. Yeah, so essentially there's a kind of, I guess, an inserter that goes into the vagina. and then the aim is to then that apply,

we call it an air cuff, but I guess a rubber ring. A soft plastic ring that sits around the baby's head. And we apply that into the right position and that enables us to then guide the baby and support the kind of natural way that a baby will come through the birth canal and we can support that naturally with the device and the device enables us to do that.

There's a part of this story that I was fascinated by that you need, you've been working on this first, 10 years now, Emily, and you wanted women to test this. Tell me about how that came about, because many people, I would have imagined, would have said, no, I'm not going to be the first to use it. Yeah. The backstory is quite amazing. The concept came up from an Argentine in car mechanic, and the WHO, the World Health Organization, came involved to develop the device. And it came to a point that we were ready to trial it and test it in women, because we have to prove it. you know, it is all in good having simulation work.

And Southmead Hospital in Bristol were approached and asked if they could support the simulation development. And when we kind of produced that suite of work, then Southmead Hospital was asked, can you do the first trial? And we spent a lot of time listening to women. So listening to the women, listening to the public about, this is our idea for a trial, this is what we want to do, what do you think, what is important to you,

what is important that we look at. And using an amazing team of researchers, engineers, midwives, obstetricians, everyone, we approached our women and said, if you need an instrumental birth or a cystive vaginal birth at the end of your labour, and we don't know who you are, but if it is you,

would you be happy to use this device that's never been trialled before in women who need assistance? And because we had very good education and very good information for women, and they'd been designing it along the way with us, we had a 78% consent rate. Quite something. It was more than we hoped for,

And women want to be heard and they want to be involved in improvement and innovation. I think that was an overwhelming feeling that we got. Women changed booking from different hospitals to come and book at our hospital just in case they need an assisted vaginal birth to be able to be in the trial. And that is testament to the women of Bristol being brave,

us including women the whole way through and making it a collaborative project. Charlie, how widely has it been used at the moment? So the device has been rolled out. into five countries so far so there's five countries actively using in the UK we have eight active sites using the device and a long pipeline of hospitals who are waiting for the training program to be delivered the Royal London Hospital is our flagship hospital they were the very first to perform a delivery after CE marking and um with it coming back to my experience this morning

You made sure it was because it's single use. I've put my gloves on, etc. But what about that? What about the cost of it? Because forcepts are reused, but something like this. It looks quite cheap to make. I could be wrong. It's plastic, both clear plastic and then kind of a hard plastic for the applicator.

What about the cost, Charlie? Yeah, so the device is available on the NHS supply chain. It's £250 per device. What we've done is worked very close. with our collaborator obstetricians such as Emily to really understand the true value of the device. I think the questions about cost is really interesting. Maternity is always, you know, trying to find cost savings and when we're trying to bring in improvements, I think a clinician really, astoundingly really said to me, you know, I've got colleagues that are bringing in new joint replacements, you know, £3,000 versus £3,200 and no one is questioning that. And yet we're here talking about childbirth and questioning a device that may have, you know, significantly reduced injury to mums and babies.

And actually healthy mum, healthy baby going out into the world as a kind of healthy family unit, you know, where does our value lie in that? Yes. And of course we talk about maturity issues so often on this program as well. Emily, you consented to take part of the trial. Can I hear that right? Yes. Yeah. So the second trial, so the larger trial that we did assist to, I was. pregnant and consented.

I went into labour. I kind of unfortunately needed an emergency cesarean section, so I wasn't eligible to be part of the trial. But, you know, you can't run a trial and not believe in it. And we've had multiple midwives who were working in the unit

who were consented to be in the trials as well. I also read that there's a trial going on in Ethiopia. Yeah. Who'd like to tell me about that? Oh, yeah. It's amazing. So the device has always been

intended to have global reach and global use. And a small pivotal study in Ethiopia has had midwives using the device in their birth settings, so very, very different to the NHS and had phenomenal success rate, very, very similar to that of the obstetricians. It's not published yet. It will come out soon. But it just shows that everything we've been striving for from 10 years ago, from the development at South Mead and onwards, has been that this device is to be able to use around the world for all women by all birth attendants, so people who are used to supporting birth. So is that potentially without obstetricians present?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, in Ethiopia, they have an obstetrician that comes for half a day a week to supply maternity care. But they do not have the obstetricians for the population that is there. And in the UK, what do you expect to see, Charlie,

if I was speaking to you a couple of years from now? We really hope to see this, widely rolled out into clinical practice. absolutely we would love to see midwives using it, the device, and there's a real eagerness to do that. I think the most important thing for us, we're not coming in saying this is the only option available, it should replace everything. Actually, what matters to us most is that women have a choice, they have an option, and an option for a gentle alternative to assisted birth. Really interesting. My day started differently to normal, but I want to thank Charlie Fuller Vice President of the Company behind the device,

maternal newborn health innovations, and Dr. Emily Houghton, NHS obstetrician, based in the Southwest, who's been involved in those clinical trials into the device and guided me beautifully to delivering my first model baby this morning. Thank you both very much. Thanks for your messages that are coming in. Some on photographs that we're going to be talking about a little bit later,

about whether you post them. Hi, I have two daughters whose photos have never appeared online, which sometimes required intervening. when a babysitter posted photos of them on Facebook. My girls are now teens and while they're a bit frustrated at having parents who wouldn't authorise the school to publish photos of them,

I firmly believe that we did the right thing and that our choices have positively influenced the girls and we come to that story of schools and photos just a little bit later on. But I'm very glad to say we have Tracy Neville back on the line. If you weren't with me at the very beginning, you may not have heard that the former England netball coach has made a huge career switch.

She is now managing director of the Stockport County Women Football Club. Tracy, you're very welcome. Oh, thank you. And I apologise. I was sat here online. That's all right. No worries. We're so glad to have you.

Tell me, why switching from the netball to football? I got back from Australia. I've been out there for three years, head coaching, pretty full-on job. Sort of at sort of end of my career. I was like, oh, what do I want to do? You know, like you ticked off all your bucket list. And I literally went down to a panel to do a panel with Gabby Logan at Stockport County Football Club. And they basically, in the audience there were the people who were setting up the women's team.

Some things I said in there about what I wanted to do, what I've been doing, you know, what I find quite challenging. And it feels that I always want to set up a club or I always want to set up a project. So they reached out to me after we had some formal conversations. And then before I knew it, I'd switched to the dark side, which, to be honest, the only person that was upset was my mum. Okay, let's talk about your mum. And for those that aren't aware you are sporting royalty, let's see, a dynasty, shall we say. It's in the family DNA. You're the sister of Gary.

You're the twin of Phil Neville, both international footballers in their day. Your dad, a cricketer. your mom, Netball was her sport. So you went to her. What did she say to you? She just thinks that there's so much more I could do in netball. I think it was quite refreshing for me to be another sport because she obviously worked at Very Football Club as well.

But to be honest, she supported me and she knows it's something that I really wanted to do. And it's a nice change. And I did take her out to her first game and she actually said, I used to love watching the lionesses with Phil. So she's sort of on board now. She's a chief supporter. So I'm sure she'll be coming to the games next year. Now I read a headline that said,

when you're looking for advice about football, you don't go to your brothers, that you go to your mum. Well, looking at my job at the moment, I think because people have coming here, they think I'm coaching. Oh, I am absolutely not coaching this team. I'm actually doing a lot of the operational

stuff, the governors, the setting up the club. And she was Secretary of Barry Football Club. So she's got a huge experience in there. And it's not that I don't go to Gary, but to be honest, I think we're good competitors, really. I feel like I can't share my secrets, even though he's probably got more secrets with me. We're not going to let anything away here.

But let us talk a little bit about Stockport women. So they're in that space between grassroots and professional. they're in the FA Women's National League Division I North so that's the fourth tier you have your work cut out for you I think in what you were trying to achieve do you want to tell our listeners a little bit yeah I think

Matt Stockton who owns the club huge community club does a lot around the Stockport area and he was like you know I cannot be community my value cannot be community if I don't have a women's team they've obviously had a licence with Stockport County ladies for many years and supported them through kits and contributions.

That club has been going 39 years. It's unbelievable what the work that they've done at that club to get it to where it says. It's one of the best pathways in the area as well. And it just comes to step that they sort of hit a grass ceiling that they knew financially they couldn't take it over and we were ready as a club to then take it over to that next step. Now he has put a massive noose around everybody's neck

because he wants promotion in three years. So he has done it with the male team, so he knows it can be done. But there's only Newcastle who have actually done that. So we know, but it's always funny in football, isn't it? You know, someone makes a statement, gets publicity next minute, and other club comes in and goes, I'm going to throw a little bit at this project. It did spark a little twinkling Gary's eyes as well.

So I'm thinking that might happen as well. But from my perspective, if more women's clubs are getting invested in, that's a real positive. And I know the competition in this league, Tier 4 league is so hard. It was so hard for us to get out of here. But, you know, we've just appointed our new coaching team and hopefully the excitement will go forward and they will take us to where we need to be.

You mentioned there Stockport County Ladies. It's now Stockport County women. Tell me about the change, the name change. Apparently there's a lot of political governance around using ladies and women. I actually don't really know the politics. I haven't been involved in the politics or the heritage of that. But from our perspective, we respect the game. We respect where the game's moving.

We want to encompass everything to do with the game. And, you know, we want it to be a team that women and girls want to play for and create ambassadors around that. So for us, the name, the Stockbrook County was really important. What come after that was more down to and supporting what's out there already. And I think, and we've had a, we've had really, really positive response from everyone around. and even the Stockport County male fans, hopefully. We've had a few come out to us and they quite enjoy watching us.

So hopefully we can grab a few of them this year as well. It's successful tomorrow night. Oh, there you go. What about the culture in netball or football? How does that feel to you? Does it feel different? Oh, so different. When I was England head coach, I did a lot of work with Philip and the lionesses.

At the time, we did some integrated culture. And just, there's just a different audience. Like, I look at football and it feels like a completely different sport. The way you attract fans, the type of fans that you attract, and the people that you attract to the sport. Yeah, you have a baseline of what culture looks like and what good culture looks like. But it is quite brutal in football, you know, with all now the big clubs setting up the academies,

a lot of players being released, a lot of, you know, girls out there, more girls spying for positions. and I think from my perspective, you know, it is a little bit of a dog-eat-dog. And we've got a lot to learn in that ball about what's being done in football. And hopefully I can make contribution to this pathway within football and make stockport the place where everyone wants to play their football for women. And I think that's something that's really strong in my mind and why we're working so closely with the pathway to continue that through.

Because there is the footballer aspect of it, of course. but also, you know, being a managing director, for example, or like being in those leadership roles, there are so few women. And I'm just wondering how you see that. And I know you're new to it, but it probably, I would imagine, feels quite different at that level as well compared to netball.

Yeah, it's really interesting that when we went out to advertisement for the job, out of 91 applicants for the role we only have two female coaches so you know what the bandwidth is there just by saying that from my role it's interesting I've grown up in a family where my mum has just made to sport a sport

I don't think I ever knew a difference until I got to 14 when Gary was playing and Phil were going to United and I was going to university school and planning what I was doing for the rest of my life So I think from my perspective, I really want a mark start and stop-up county, the club, really want that, yeah, the Rose obviously is the financial difference because there has to be at this stage. But he also wants to support us in everything that we do so that we actually make it a really active project for the community, but also for the team as well. So, you know, there's some really positive steps and really positive ways of going forward.

And I'll tell you what, I've been in that club about two and a half months now, and I feel like I've been there for about. 10 years. So that's how welcoming they've been of us. And sometimes listening to other people, that's sometimes not the case across the board. So I think that was a really great move going forward. I'm glad that you were enjoying it so much. I just want to ask

you also, people may remember when you stepped down as England netball coached to start a family. You had gone through miscarriages and IVF. But then, very happily, you became an older mum. You had your son at 43. But you were surprised at times at how

people reacted to you? Yeah, I was actually. And I think when I made the decision to step down, I didn't actually put my personal circumstance out into the wider audience. I think that only come out afterwards because at the time, you know, I've gone through to me, you know, for me, it's a sob story, it's a difficult one. And, you know, it's a conversation you never have when you're going through IVF. Because because of the failures and coming from a world where I'd not had that many failures in my life. It's something that I had no control over. It wasn't that I could train harder. I could be different. I couldn't, you know, I was just controlled by my body and my circumstances and my age. And I was quite surprised when I did step down, you know, there was a little bit of, you know,

it's not the right time, you know, you shouldn't be doing this before World Cup. But from my perspective, you know, my time was running out for a child. So, but afterwards, I think the response was really good. And I know, do you know, the really sensitive moment for me was I went out to a, I was pregnant at the time, luckily, I went out to a netball match, just a local community tournament. And one of my friends who I've gone to college with, like years ago, I'd not seen come up to me, and said, do you know what, I've had nine, nine IVFs and failed, never had a child. She said, you've inspired me to go again. And would you believe she's got two children now? So I think, you know, I don't think that's always going to happen,

but I also think that it's so hard to give up because it's such a grueling process. I don't think anyone can say, you know, the failure to not be able to do something a woman's body is made for is quite upsetting because when I was younger, I thought, everyone can have children. Why do I need to, why do I need to, you know, do anything in that space? And I know in Netball now we do, you know, in Australia,

we would, you know, the Player Association, we're doing a lot about female screening because, you know, also people about freezing their eggs early so that they can prolong their sport. You know, there's a lot of now activations around supporting women in that and I know a lot of industries support that as well.

Yeah, there's conversation starting at least, although as I often come up against here in the programme, perhaps no perfect solution either. But thank you very much for sharing that because I do know it's very personal. I do want to ask you about something else actually, which is, very sad and personal.

You will know that last year, Matt Beard, one of the most successful managers in the women's game, took his own life. Today, you might have seen his wife, Debbie, is urging football to introduce regular mandatory mental health checks for managers so that no more families have to suffer the same pain. His son, Harry, said, you don't see many people congratulating managers on a win.

It's ridiculous because when they get a loss, they get battered online. I'm just curious, your thoughts about that call for checks. I don't really know much about the situation, I'm going to say that, but just to let you know that the first thing that I did when our coaches were appointed is we leaned into our male support and they have someone supporting them from the start. So I think that's been very important for me. So as you know, as a head coach, I think there's been some organisations that I've worked for

that have absolutely supported me through that. So I've had that support. but there's also been the organisations who have just thrown me out to the crocodiles as well. So I think that was something I've really learned as a head coach. So we do have someone, you know, it's going to be announced today. I had coaches and they have been working two weeks now with someone from a sports site background to give them that support through this transition. Thank you so much.

The new managing director of the Stockport County Women's Football Club Tracy Neville, come back again to us and we'll chat a little bit further as you go along at this journey. Thanks so much for speaking to us. And if you are affected by any of the issues raised in this story, there is support and advice available on the BBC action line. Let me move on to 28. New research suggests that 28 is the key turning point for women's finances. Yeah, 28 years of age. Investment platform, AJ Bell, says that when money start to fall behind,

on pension savings, it's that age, and women retire with about 48% less wealth. I'm joined by Charlene Young, senior pensions and savings expert at AJ Bell. Welcome. Why is 28 the tipping point for women? Yeah, hi, thanks for having me on this show. So this kind of magic number in our report,

because this is the age that we saw a gap begin to emerge in the amount our female customers had in their pots compared to men. And so there's lots of research out there on what we call the gender pensions gap. But I think we wanted to really kind of dig down into when and how it might start to manifest so that we can understand how we can close that gap a little bit better. So tell me what's happening at 28. Yeah. So we spoke to 2,000 people and the people we spoke to before age 28 about their financial priorities,

It's probably no surprise that neither men or women had pensions or savings particularly high up in their to-do list. They actually, the top priority was simply getting by. But then at age 28, we saw this begin to shift. Men started to really zone in on long-term financial planning goals such as pensions and retirement. About 22% started to name it as a top priority versus around 8% of the women we asked. Now, women were fantastic at setting goals for their finances, lifestyle goals, but they tended to be a little bit shorter term or more tangible in nature. So, for example, women wanted to focus on saving for their first home,

saving towards having children, as we talked about earlier on the show, and for travel. So I think that gave us some interesting clues about how we as financial providers can communicate with women. There was also a big gap at that point in the expectations that men and women had for what they might be able to get from their pensions in retirement. Our women under 28 or up to 28 expected their pensions to give them 25% less than young men of the same age. Actually, once we got to 28, there was a growing recognition of what retirement might cost. That gap closed. But still more priority was placed on shorter term or more family-focused needs. needs the men. And I think, you know, if we think about what else happens potentially in our lives

at 28, it's when work, career paths might start to take a diversion path for women. So women might start to take career breaks to have children. Age 29 is when the average woman in the UK has their first child. So again, a huge life event, another priority shift where, let's be honest, pensions and perhaps paying more into them for later life, slips down that priority order. And it might seem a long way away, I imagine. Absolutely. So, I mean, what can be done for that? Is it like a campaign to try and get people to understand?

Is it trying to play catch-up a little bit later? Yeah, so we saw actually that the kind of priority gap, if you like, closed and disappeared. The good news was, you know, by age 41, men and women were placing equal priority for saving for retirement. But obviously, with that gap starting to emerge already, women might have missed out on the, you know, the long-term power of, investment growth. So, you know, the onus is on everyone. It's on all of us, not just individuals to make that change, but, you know, individuals can make some adjustments. So even if you're at the point where actually paying into your pensions or topping them up with extra money isn't correct for you right now, you can still kind of show your pension some love. There's big campaigns about

showing your pension attention, for example. So check how much you are paying in, how much your employer, if you have one is paying in and where it's invested. Don't be afraid to look beyond kind of default funds and things that you're automatically invested in. You might find something better to suit your goals. And, you know, pensions come with huge tax breaks and tax benefits. So make sure you're making the most of them. A really simple one that sometimes is often missed

is that if we pay in a little bit more than the minimum, if we can, our employers will often actually match that too. So that's extra kind of free money. there. But I think, you know, I say it's not just on individuals here. It's up to us as pension providers, how we communicate to women about these big tax breaks and advantages that pensions offer. Can we also communicate to women in a way that reflects their reality and their career paths? So, you know, we've talked about how women are fantastic at setting these lifestyle goals. How do we get that age 41 priority shift? How do we get that age down so that women are prioritizing pensions?

Because I suppose people are concerned when they're taking a career break or maybe wanting part-time work, perhaps fitting in with their family, for example. Is there anything they can do about that? Or is it about being cognizant going into it? Yeah, I mean, if you're in that family unit, you're in a partnership, have some frank conversations about your family finances. One of the perks pensions offers that other people can actually pay into them for you. Most obviously an employer.

but, you know, have a conversation with your partner about whether they can help pay into your pension scheme whilst you're on those career breaks. Make sure you get to know what's going to be paid in if you are taking maternity leave. Pension contributions do often continue. If you're taking a longer period of leave, they might start to reduce or stop. So think about how that might impact your future finances. But there's things that policymakers can do as well. I mean, the obvious one is to stop kind of lots of speculation when it comes to pension changes. There's lots of change speculation going on right now in politics.

But auto-enrollment, so this is where people are automatically added to pension schemes when they start a new job. That's so interesting. It's been fantastic at getting people saving and saving earlier for their retirement, but it has some wrinkles that need ironing out. But I'm just thinking back to our conversation here, Charlene, is like, why are men thinking about their pension? at 28 when women are not? Yeah, it's really interesting.

As you say, before that age, neither is paying too much attention to it. We've got student debt potentially looking over our shoulders for that as graduates. And then this age 28 focus, it might be, as we're thinking about, you know, women, we tend to think about how we're going to fund having a child, fund childcare once we've had a child.

Are those roles falling to the women in the household and men are thinking, right, well, I can, my tangible reality is I can take control of my longer term savings there. So, you know, having, having those conversations as a family, knowing what's going to happen, can give you the tools to think about how you can combat that. And maybe not thinking about the pension as something separate from preparing for your family. Yeah, nothing separate. And it's definitely not something scary or to fear.

I think for me, I work in pension. So obviously I love them. But if we can help people kind of embrace and understand them, then there's nothing. to fear and we can make the most of those tax breaks on offer. Charlene Young, senior pensions and savings expert at AJ Bell, thank you very much, a lot of information there. I hope it is helpful to those that are listening, perhaps for you, or if you're a young woman, at the moment,

have a quick refresh of your financial history, or if you know somebody younger, maybe give them a bit of a nudge. Now, I want to give you some advance notice about an item that's coming up later this week. If you are the parent or carer of a child who's forever on social media, scrolling, posting, influencing, being influenced, and try as you mind you cannot get her or him off those sites. Listen in on Thursday because Anita will be discussing the issue of social media addiction and children, along with a psychiatrist and a lawyer.

We want to ask you if you've identified a tipping point when a teenager's keen interest in social media has tipped into problematic behavior. What happened? And if you feel your child is hooked, what have you tried? to do to sort it out. I'd like to hear your experiences and your questions on this subject. Anita will be across them to text.

Woman's Hour 84844 on social media. We're at BBC, Women's Hour, or of course you can email us through our website. I want to turn to Meena, who came to the UK from Iran as a refugee 15 years ago. You might know her if you've been watching Channel 4's Your Song. It's a new series celebrating the power of music and storytelling.

Meena learned to sing secretly as a quiet act of rebellion as women's voices were restricted as she grew up. They're not restricted today. Your voice is not restricted today, I should say. You're joining me in the Women's Hour studio. Good morning. Morning and yeah, thank you so much for having me today. A pleasure.

Shall I tell you something? Yeah, go on. I came to this country first few years. I used to listen to your show a lot and used to listen to improve my English. I loved it. Well, your English is wonderful. Amazing content. Or amazing good women,

was so empowering. I'm so delighted that you're here. Tell me a little bit about your journey, why you left Iran? I left Iran because of a lot of political and social pressure on me as a woman since I was a young girl. And it's not just me, I think, anybody in Iran, even the offspring of the top commanders from the government, they always brood the idea of leaving Iran. living in a free democratic country, democratic world. So it's quite widespread there that will to be free, obviously, as human beings. So for me, it was every right that was taken away from me,

many simple things that I was deprived of as a young girl, as a woman. And there were so many reasons, political reasons, not going to the details of it. But yeah, there were a lot of reasons to live, wanting to be free, wanting to have a voice, just as an example, as the show indicates, singing, something that many people even don't know about or don't even think about. Even singing is forbidden publicly for women even now to this age. So many cannot sing solo or won't be on state TV. I understand that you grew up, though, listening to a female singer.

But in secret, tell me a little bit about her, Gougouche. Gugush. Yeah, Gagush is my hero. I don't know, my role model. Very glamorous woman. She is, she is. She's 74 now, I think, but she's still glamorous. So at the time when I was listening to Gugush in Iran, when I was 12, it was first time that a friend in school told me about Goukush. So my family, quite traditional, partly religious, so they were not listening to Gugust. So I came across Gugush through a friend. And at the time, obviously, the, oppression was more intense.

We couldn't even possess a cassette tape or music by men or women, anything produced before the Islamic Revolution. So at that time, my friend smuggled this tape as like, really, it was act of rebellion to even listen to or have any sort of music that was not aligned with government's agenda. Because she would have really been popular, I suppose, before the revolution, when women had a completely different role in society. if you see her, she's got long hair, you know, very elaborate makeup and costumes.

Yeah, she was Madonna of Iran. Madonna of Iran, that's a great way to put it. She was internationally known at the time and very loved by people in Iran before the revolution and after obviously people listen to, continue to listen to her and other singers secretly. So when I listened to her for the first time, that was when I knew I love singing because I love to imitate her voice. So I'm not doing that anymore. Now you've got your own voice because I was watching the program.

You won your heat in Birmingham. It was so lovely to watch. You're in the final. That'll be on Channel 4 on the 17th of May. What did it feel like to enter this competition, your song, and get up in front of the public and sing? What's an amazing experience. A very unique experience.

I've never had that before. So when I heard about the show, obviously I wanted to participate. So firstly, I love singing. I see singing as like a great medium to educate and teach and connect and communicate messages in such, I don't know, powerful way. And when I learned about the show and the theme that it's not just about singing, it's about human stories and bringing these stories to life through singing and music. And it's totally aligned with my interest and passion. And also as an Iranian woman, as a woman life freedom activist, I thought this is an opportunity to. tell people about a small fraction

of human rights and particularly women's rights violations in Iran that something as beautiful, natural inherent in our DNA in our blueprint is forbidden in Iran. So it was great to be able to be given this

amazing platform to share this story and the song. And you're going to perform for us in a moment I'll ask you about this song. But Iran of course has been in the news for a couple of months now. air strikes were launched on the country by the US and Israel. Today, President Trump said that the month-long ceasefire is on life support. You're still a family in the country.

I'm wondering what it's like for you. And I mean, do you think you are more likely or less likely to go home with what's happening? A way to war or without, it would be possible to go, but I wouldn't risk it because probably I wouldn't be able to come back because of my activism for particularly women, women life, freedom, movement. And my strong belief in this, not as a localized political slogan, but principles and a doctorate that can really help us as Iranians and internationally to, I don't know, take us to a better direction in life.

So, yeah, I can communicate with my family. For most of this year, 26, there's been international. and blackout because of the security during the war and before the war there was a huge massacre in Iran. Tens of thousands of people were killed because of the protests and people are still getting executed. Every day I wake up, I start my day with Iran news to see what's happening with the war and also who's executed today.

So I haven't done it today. I just needed to keep my nerves calm because it's really disturbing and also not knowing if your family is safe. if they're alive every given moment. Yes, and I don't have the specific figures on the protest, but I do know the executions that you were talking about that have been in the news over the past week as well.

And that is really quite something, I think, that illustrates how the news affects you on such a personal level, day in and day out. I do hope your family remains safe. But tell me a little bit about the song that you are going to sing. maybe am I dreaming or am I awake? I know is the English translation. In Farsi, it's...

Chobam. You abedaram. And you want to sing this first because? This was the first song that I learned. It was in the same album that my friend smuggled into the school. So it was the first time that I knew that I loved singing. And I listened to Gugur. So it means a lot to me.

So it's part of that's core childhood memory that I'm sharing. The lyrics, it's a basic romantic song. It's longing and desire to be a loved one, any loved one, not just a romantic love. And wanting to stay in a dream that is more beautiful than reality of your life. Very beautiful, because I listen to it already, but I'm going to get to listen to it again. Off you go.

Please do, Mina. You can pop over to the microphone there. Thank you so much for joining us. best of luck, of course, with your song on Channel 4 on the 17th of May, which will be the final and you'll be able to see Mina perform but now you can listen to her a cappella. Thanks, Mina.

She makes her way over in the studio and we'll sit back and listen. How beautiful. Mina, thank you so much. I think just your voice without any musical instruments, what a treat for me. I could actually feel the vibrations in this studio off 80A as you sang.

Best of luck on the final, your song on Channel 4 on the 17th of May. Do tune in and listen to that. Thank you so much. Thank you. I want to turn to schools. They are being advised to rethink how they use photographs

of pupils online. It's due to fears that images can be stolen from school websites or social media accounts and manipulated into sexually explicit content using AI tools, artificial intelligence. The calls come from the advisory body that's tackling online harms. They are the early warning working group.

There was, you might remember, a high-profile case last year where parents at the kiddo nursery chain discovered photographs of children alongside sensitive personal information have been stolen in a cyber attack and allegedly posted on the dark web. More recently, the Times reported that the Internet Watch Foundation had been alerted to another case involving a UK secondary school where more than 100 AI-generated images classed as child sexual abuse material had allegedly been created following a black male attempt.

Well, Carol Osborne is the mother of two daughters and worked in communications, but after hearing concerns from parents and head teachers about AI-generated image abuse, she decided to do something about it herself, and she's in studio now. Welcome, Carol. Hello, thank you for having me. So can you explain? I gave a couple of lines there, but it is kind of a confusing concept to get your head around, what these gangs are doing with the images that are being taken from school websites. Of course.

So what I found out about 12 months ago directly through working with the school is that the criminals are using tools to scrape school websites. They take the faces of the children. They put this onto material, very harmful material that could then be, is then turned into child sex abuse material, basically. They then will email the school with a few of those images and following his an extortion attempt. What we're realising as well now since working on this is this isn't just a problem to schools with money.

This is any school is a potential victim here. You then went into Mama Bear Mode. Yes. I read and started thinking, what could you do about it? So you developed an app called Aidos? Ados, yeah. How does that help matters? Okay, so you're right.

I did go into Mama Bear mode because my instinct straight away was about protecting my own children and then what I could do to kind of protect more children. What Aidos does, we've built the whole infrastructure with security right at the course. So schools can upload images. What our technology will then do is scan the image and replace, it will scan ethnicity, sex age,

and it will replace the real identity of the child with an artificially generated identity. So it still looks like a real child. The culture of the images, the same individuality, even the expression on the child's face is still the same so schools can mark it safely. So I looked at these photographs and the child looks similar

but to my eye does not look like the same child. just for people to know. And in that way, it stops a cyber attack because... It stops the real child's identity from being taken. So that generated child's image may be taken. Exactly. But it will never, ever be a real child's identity. So some might say, why don't schools just stop using photographs and social media?

Why do they use it? They use schools have a really important job to do to make our children and parents feel safe and secure and about going to that school. And marketing and brand is a really important part of that. And for that, it's important that schools can can really reflect happy, safe, looked after children and environment. So it's important. But what we're saying with ADOS is that we're not saying just use ADOS and carry. on using children's identities. We're just saying use those images really safely.

So you don't necessarily need to put full-on-face children on your website to promote your school. You're saying it could be from back of the head. It could be from back of the head. It could be side profile, exactly. What about not posting photographs at all because some listeners might think that would be the same. Yeah, then I think that's definitely an option

that schools would need to consider. You do? I think so. I think that what we want to do with Aidos is give another option for schools to be able to market safely if that's what they choose to do. I haven't spoken about victims in this

which are, and of course they may not know because people, I would imagine, are not going on the dark web, but it read some children were trying to figure out whether their image had been used or not, but what have you heard from, be it children, parents, teachers? It's about

the long-term damage. So there's the immediate shock and scared parents, scared children. But it's the long-term mental health damage that happens as well. You know, for children do go and look for their images, but also they could be walking down a street and wonder if the person who's looking at them for slightly too long

has seen a harmful image with their identity in. So it doesn't go away because we can't get these images back once they're online. We did reach out to the NHT as well. and we tried to speak to a head teacher about the issue, but they were unable to find someone to take part. We did get a statement from the spokesperson at the National Association for Head Teachers. They said we'll be looking at the issues around images of pupils and looking at the latest guidance and how to support members to review

and implement new approaches and policies. But we will also be extending this to talk about the use of staff images too, as they can face the same risks. And with head teachers, we asked many different people, the statement is just from the NAHD, to be clear. Why do you think head teachers are reluctant to speak about this publicly? I think there is a fear for the damage it could do to their reputation to people finding out maybe what children have potentially been put at risk.

I think it's a terrifying subject that schools, parents, communities don't know how to deal. with at the moment. But in the UK it is illegal to generate, possess, share child sexual abuse images, whether it features real children of those that are generated by AI. What would you like to see happen in a broader scale instead of trying to thwart it, you know, one case at a time? I would love for no children's real identity to be used in marketing materials online. Oh wow, that's quite a big statement, Carol. Because I think that technology moves so fast. And if we can't keep up with the negative ways that technology are used, we have to put preventative measures in place, and which is what we're trying to do with ADOS, you know,

it's very much about prevention. So I think, you know, as adults, we have a responsibility to our children and any child to keep them as safe as we possibly can. A message. I used to enjoy posting family photos occasionally online, but I no longer do. It's affles me how people post photos of their children, including school uniform photos, medical information, even embarrassing information or behaviour. Our children should not be an extension of our own egos. They're a whole human in their own right and cannot consent to the sharing of photos of them online. Parents need to lead by example and be very discerning when sharing photos of their children. Stick to sharing in the family WhatsApp groups.

Your family's value does a need to be validated by hundreds of people on the internet. I was just asking people 84844 on that. Thanks for your messages. Thanks also to you, Carol Osborne, for coming in and talking about this, one of the stories we've seen, but trying to do something about it. We'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Women's Hour.

Join us again next time. Please welcome your Any Questions panel. Hello, I'm Alex Forsyth, host of Radio 4's Any Questions. If you don't know the program, this is what it's about. Every Friday, I'm joined by politicians, journalists, and public figures who answer questions directly from a live audience, giving you real views, real challenges, and real conversations about the issues shaping our lives. We take our lively debate to communities across the UK,

where they get to ask the questions about the topics that matter the most. Live political debate, where the audience drives the agenda. Any questions? Every Friday night at 8pm on Radio 4 or subscribe on BBC Sounds so that you never miss an episode. Thank you.