Woman's Hour - Tracey Neville: Head Coach of the England Women’s Netball Team

Episode Date: February 14, 2019

Netball is played in schools across the UK, but as a professional sport has had little recognition. When the England Netball team took home Gold at the Commonwealth Games last year, that changed. Head Coach Tracey Neville joins us to discuss the impact that moment had, and what she loves so much about the game.In the UK, there are 800,000 disabled children under the age of 16 - nearly all of them live at home and are supported by their families. But what happens when their behaviour becomes so challenging you struggle to look after them? We look at the difficult decision to consider whether residential care might be the answer not only for them but for you and the rest of the family. We hear from Sharon King, mother of three older children all of whom are on the autism spectrum, and Amanda Batten Chief Executive Contact a charity for families of disabled children.Breast ironing is a way to stop teenagers’ breasts from growing. It’s painful and sometimes involves large, hot stones pushing down on the breasts. Hammers or spatulas are also used, and so are elastic belts or binders. Usually mothers do it, calling it tradition and saying that it stops their daughters being sexually attractive or sexually active. It happens in several African countries but cases have been recorded in the UK too, although it’s impossible to know the true scale. This week the UK Government has called it child abuse and says it will be dealt with in law. Laura Mucha has spent her life trying to understand romantic relationships and has now brought interviews with strangers together with research studies in her new book. She discusses her findings and how they’ve helped her own approach to love.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Amanda Barren Interviewed Guest: Sharon King Interviewed Guest: Tracey Neville Interviewed Guest: Milly Kerr Interviewed Guest: Laura Mucha

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Thursday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Tracy Neville's brothers Gary and Phil went for football. Tracy excelled at netball. As England's head coach, where can she take the team that won gold at last year's Commonwealth Games? On Valentine's Day, love factually. The science of why we fall in love and with whom. And as Katie Price announces her decision to send her severely disabled son into care,

how does a parent make such a difficult decision and what's available for the child? Now we've become very familiar in recent years with the scandal of female genital mutilation, and there has now been a conviction as a result of the law which bans it in this country and aims to prevent girls being taken abroad to have it done to them. Breast ironing has only recently begun to be discussed, and we learn today that the government has described it as child abuse, suggests the police should prosecute any offenders under assault laws,

but does not intend to introduce a separate law to cover the practice. It happened to Lucy Njomo when she was a child in Cameroon. The people that did it were my relatives which is more my aunties were used a wooden spoon or a nice round stone, hit it on the fire side hit it and with the use oil and sort of massage it round. It's sometimes painful and at the end of it, fold the scarf and tie it around my back, around my chest to prevent it from developing. When it was being done, it was painful but at the time I feel happy that it's being done because it's not just myself. They will tell me that this is to prevent us from getting involved in marriages

or even unwanted pregnancy or even rape. It's not to reduce the size of my breasts or for any other reason. It's a way of protecting me. Well, it was the Guardian newspaper that revealed anecdotal evidence of dozens of recent cases being carried out in the UK. Millie Kerr is the Children's Services Manager at the National FGM Centre. Millie, it does seem to be mothers largely who are doing this, certainly in this country. Why are they doing it in the UK? Breast flattening is primarily undertaken practice by mothers of girls, female relatives

of the girls, aunts, elders, grandparents, primarily under the auspices of protecting their girls basically from unwanted advances from men within the community and feeling that it's actually going to keep them safe from things like that, sexual advances and rape and things like that. And what exactly does it involve? What do they do? It involves using often stones, spatulas, sometimes hammers, which are heated over hot coals or a fire, and then the heat from those implements are compressed on a girl's breast to either prevent the growth of the breasts

or to delay the development of the breasts. And how damaging is it? It can be very damaging, not just physically but psychologically. It can cause problems like cysts and itching and tissue damage and disappearance of the breasts completely or and deformity of the breast. And presumably it can be very painful. And it can be very painful. And at times when the hot implements are used, it can also cause scarring and burning. Now, there are claims that there have been 1,000 cases in the UK.

How accurate do you reckon that number is? I think that figure has come from a recent Guardian article that indicates that there are 1,000 women and girls living in the UK who've undergone the practice. And although we are aware that it's anecdotal evidence, we are aware that sometimes what happens, as with FGM, you need to raise awareness, basically, at times, for the breast-flattening issues and concerns to actually come to the forefront, because people are not always aware of the practice

or what to do about the practice or who to talk to, refer it to. So what should schools, and one of the Guardian articles mentions border controls, what should they be looking out for? or sex and relationships lessons because parents might not want them to be involved in those lessons to learn about sex and education as well as their human rights. Girls may also want to withdraw from physical activities that they may actually need to be taking part in at school. They may also come from a family where breast flattening

may have been practiced by their mother, or they may have cousins or aunties, other female members in the family who have practiced FGM. And in terms of Border Force, we are already working with Border Force in terms of in partnership with Border Force, anyway, and the police, around Operation Limelight, which focuses on trying to actually engage with communities around FGM, forced marriage and breast flattening as a safeguarding issue. The government has said assault laws can be used and they've defined the offence of breast flattening as child abuse.

How satisfied are you with that response? Is that law strong enough? I think what we actually need to recognise is that it may well be a hidden form of child abuse, and it's a hidden form of child abuse, and it's a hidden form of child abuse, but I feel that we have sufficient legislation in terms of childcare legislation, as well as other legislations that could potentially prosecute someone for this type of harm to children under the common assault legislation under fences

that relate to grievous bodily harm and actual bodily harm. Milika, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now, Tracy Neville was born into a rather sporty family. Her mother played netball. Her two brothers, Gary and Phil,

went, of course, for football. And Tracy followed her mother to the netball court. Now, we've all played netball at school. It's the go-to sport for girls everywhere. But it's not had much recognition professionally. But last year, the England netball team brought home the gold medal from the Commonwealth Games. And the win was dubbed BBC Sports Personality of the Year Moment of the Year. Well, Tracey is the team's head coach.

What was that winning moment like for her? It was a little bit surreal, I think, because during the game, the momentum kept shifting between us and Australia. It was a game that we probably weren't expected to win. Australia had come through the tournament quite easily. We'd obviously come out of a semi-final where we'd only expected to win. Australia had come through the tournament quite easily. We'd obviously come out of a semi-final where we'd only won by one. So it was one of them things where

I remember the ball going off the back line for the Aussies and thinking, we've got something like 20 seconds to get that ball down to the other end and score. And one of our main shooters obviously just didn't set a shot through the ball at the ring. Then we got the rebound, and then Helen missed the next shot.

So it was like then the umpire pulled it back, and I went, this can't be happening, because if I was to put the ball in anyone's net, it would be Helen Housby's. And I think when it happened, I was just so shocked that, like, you feel like sometimes that looks on your side, and I think when you win, you know you've worked so hard to get there, but when you do win with such slight margins, you just think, that was so lucky,

we just got that opportunity to take that goal. But what effect has it had on the profile of netball? I don't think we underestimated what the impact of winning that gold was and coming out of that we've we've seen a huge increase in our sport and we've had something like 130 000 people um engage in the sport within the first two to three months or come back to netball and that is quite pleasing for me because i think every single girl in the country has played netball at some time.

And we've had such really rewarding stories about people who, you know, they may not be able to play anymore, but they've come back to volunteer or they've come back to be a manager or to support and coach on the sidelines. So from my point of view, on just a participation level, that's been really pleasing. In respect to the performance side, the amount of commercial interest that that gold medal has driven us as a sport and obviously the accolades that we've had on the back of that has been absolutely huge. And, you know, having such a global company like Knight come on board, Vitality, has just increased the attraction of our sport and been able to do much more.

As you say, we've all played netball, if we're girls. I'm almost guaranteed to have played netball. But what was it about netball that really got you? I think it was my mum. I know you talk about the moment, about when you got into the sport and it was that really close connection of going out with my mum on my own. Obviously, I have two brothers. Our house was very football and cricket orientated.

And, you know, just to spend that special moment with my mum going watching a play, picking up a bib, you know, filling in when they were short. And then she actually coached the first external netball team outside school that I actually participated in. And I don't know, it was just such a special time.

And even now, she never misses my games she comes and watches me everywhere and it still is a bond that we we've never lost sport has been our connection the way you know just the way we've had some girly time together. It's not been well funded unlike probably the sports that your brothers were involved in that must have got you really annoyed that their sports got so much attention and yours didn't I think the turning point for me was when I was about 14 and my two brothers signed for Man United on a four-year deal

and we were almost very competitive we were at the same level I think we were at county level. And I think that was the first change I knew in the difference between male and female sport. And I think for the next 10 years, obviously, I have to obviously self-fund myself. And I think Sport England coming on board

when I was 19 in our first Commonwealth Games was the first time that I was actually funded to actually be able to play my sport and although that was a minimal funding it was also supported by some of the external things so I think now with the win and victory always brings

success and brings more on board I think it's enabled us to put more into professionalising our sport and try and compare ourselves or try and compete with the other countries that are actually doing that. And who's top dog sports person now?

You or your brothers? I think I'm more light, but I don't think that says much. I think, yeah, I think Gary's quite renowned in the sporting world for his work on the media, but I think in coaching at the moment I think I'm the first Neville to have an head coaching role at an international level so hopefully Philip can come and equal my achievements at the World Cup this year and we

can run as we've done through all our lives where we've been successful on the same sort of line so yeah so how's training going for the world cup which is coming up so we've just come out of an international phase um and we've had some you know we've had some disappointing results we've had some successful results i think from my point of view is the consistency of some of our results against the world number one and two so we've just finished in a quad series although we went out to win it and we obviously maintained our position in second so um i think we've had a real positive outlook from the international calendar and obviously we've actually looked at some succession of players and competition for places so over the next few months the girls are back in their club sides all over the world and this is now a time for me to regroup and get our programme in place for the World Cup

in Liverpool in July. And how is it going towards Olympics maybe? I think the uniqueness about netball is that we don't have that male counterpart and if you look at Olympic sport they always have a male equivalent to that sport and although um there are men who um actually participate in our sport the funding to support men is not there and i have to say jenny i'm a little bit greedy that you know we get very minimal funding and i want that at the moment to be to be in progressing with the women's game and although we have a um a, I think we're quite, I quite like that specialism of the sport where, you know, we are a women in entity, although that sometimes has its downside in respect to some of the commercial interests that we can attract. But with those sponsors you mentioned earlier, your funding must be improving hugely. Yes, definitely. And, you know, congratulations to our commercial department, England them on a daily basis because they've now increased

our funding where the noose around our net was about the gold medal at 2019 but now you know they're backing us to that Commonwealth Games in Birmingham in three years time so you know I have to thank them hugely and they've been there from the start and hopefully they'll continue to support us. How much do you still love actually playing it? I have to say, Jenny, my body is not where it used to be. I think my mum's probably the most active person and goes out playing every night. I think, do you know what, it's interesting now, if someone was to give me the opportunities to play or coach, I would choose the coaching role because I do now value that actually

I'm probably a better coach than I ever was a player. I was a great team player. But when I look at the talent and the uniqueness of the players and the calibre that are actually out there, I feel that potentially I could have made it just because of my team. I love the team spirit and I love being part of a team but the hardness that you have to train now i'm i'm quite happy to be sat on that bench in a coaching role i was talking to tracy neville now still to come in today's program on valentine's day

love factually the science of why we fall in love and with whom also for valentine's day bbc sounds is releasing a new selection of 15 classic stories about love, which you can download through the app. They include Oscar Wilde's The Nightingale and the Rose, The Cook's Wedding by Anton Chekhov, Eleonora by Edgar Allan Poe, and Happiness by Guillaume Passant.

And the reader is Sam Dale. And this week's Late Night Woman's Hour is available also on BBC Sounds. Ellen Coyne, Zoe Strimple and Clara Amfo discuss taking the pill with no breaks and talking to children about virginity. Now, for a long time, Katie Price, who's been famous for her campaigning for her severely disabled son, Harvey, insisted that she wanted to care for him herself at home with his four younger siblings. But he's now 16 and has become more and more difficult to manage.

She and he talked recently on Victoria Derbyshire's programme on BBC Two. What do you do at home, Harvey, to Mummy's house? What have you been doing? What Mummy doesn't like? Smash the windows. Yeah, and how many TVs do you do at home, Harv, to Mummy's house? What have you been doing? What Mummy doesn't like? Smash the windows. Yeah, and how many TVs do you smash? Lots. Yes, and how many iPads? Eight.

This year you've smashed eight iPads. He doesn't realise the expense of them as well, and it's like, it's a danger to himself, and the first time ever now I'm thinking that he might have to go residential Monday to Friday. Really? Because he knows if he kicks off in the morning the driver won't take him to school.

So he's sussed that and he's missing out on his education. He just wants to be with me all the time, don't you have? Oh yeah. But it's so hard. I've never had respite. I haven't got a care of him. I do it all myself. But I'm really having to think about it. But I hate it because it's

my life, do you know what I mean? But I've got to do what's best for him. It won't be forever. Don't do that, please. That would be a very hard decision, wouldn't it? I know, but when he's, like, smashing things and the kids are a bit scared of him because he's big, you know, we'll chase him and stuff. I've just got to do it for him.

Well, Katie is not alone in being a parent who's having to make the decision to let her child go into care. Sharon King has three children, all of whom have been diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum. Her oldest child, Rosie, has Asperger's syndrome and is at university, but her younger children, Daisy, who's 18, and Lenny, who's 16, are becoming increasingly difficult to care for. And Sharon is considering sending them to some form of residential care. I spoke to Aurelia this morning,

and she described the kind of problems she has to deal with in a typical day at home. He needs constant supervision. He's very lively, got loads of energy. He's non-verbal, so he needs lots of physical cues, but he's very bright. He's adept at things like escaping from the house and breaking into the kitchen. He's a big personality and he brings me a lot of joy. And what sort of problems does he bring you? Well, all kinds of problems, really. One of his favourite things is escaping to the co-op which is just over

the road. The staff there are very familiar with him. He seems to think it's a free chocolate bar and he comes back armed with chocolate and yoghurt and things like that. He likes to remove his clothes which is a 17 year old boy now, not a little toddler. So that can cause us lots of problems out in public. Generally, he makes lots of noise and lots of mess. He's quite chaotic, but as I said again, these are all the negatives, and he's a lovely boy, and I get lots of cuddles and smiles and kisses from him, so that goes a lot of the way to balance things.

And what about Daisy? Let me start with Daisy's strengths, if that's OK. She's a beautiful girl, very gentle, very loving, very adept at making friends. She loves to dance, she loves to swim, she's quite artistic, she likes to gather things and make patterns from them. Her problems are communication, she's non-verbal and doesn't understand any language.

She's got quite a lot of physical problems with hypermobile joints, microcephaly, very low muscle tone. And she's classed as having severe learning disabilities. So again, needs constant supervision all the time. Why are you considering residential care or some sort of supported living? Well, my two youngest children are nearly 17 and 18 now so very soon they'll both be adults and when they were younger I can remember thinking that I wanted to be their main carer forever until I died because I felt very protective of them. I felt that the world was quite a dangerous place. And I wanted to keep them close and make sure they were okay.

But now as the children get older, I see that as faulty judgment, really, because we can create this cocoon of safety like a little igloo where everything's fine for them in their own world. But the problem with that little igloo is it's very restrictive, and I've only got so much energy and so much time when my children go out to respite care there's someone to organize their activities there's someone else to cook someone else to clean someone else to drive and when the children are at home it's only me divided by two so you've got to think logically where are they getting the best deal? And it is actually in respite care.

What difference will it make for them to be in residential care? Well, I think that people, regardless of what their problems are, their disabilities, everybody deserves and wants autonomy to be in charge of their own life. We'd never want for our non-disabled children to be at home forever. We'd never want that. Or maybe if we did, we'd recognise that was a selfish desire. And I'm mortal. I'm not going to be here forever.

I'm only 49, but there will come a time when I'm not here and if things go according to plan my children will outlive me. Now if they've never become used to being independent, become used to receiving care from other people that will be a terrible shock. It'll be an absolutely terrible thing that they almost institutionalise by me and looking back in, I can see why people have shied away from residential care and wanted to keep their children safe because things were a lot different even 10, 15 years ago. But my experience of respite, you know,

it's all about the young person's autonomy. It's all about allowing them to have a rich life and to experience as much independence and as much of this world as possible. How difficult, though, has it been for you to admit that perhaps you can no longer cope? Well, I can cope and I always would cope, but is coping enough? You know, just coping with your life is not enough. We all deserve to enjoy our lives and to enjoy a rich life.

And to be honest, it's been by degrees when the children were very little i was advised and to access respite care for them and i was quite reluctant i was a bit of a martyr saying no i'll do everything but the um the difference came when i went to visit the facilities and i saw young people not just being put in storage while the parents were relaxing, young people getting out there and doing things and going to discos and eating out and socialising with other young people

as is completely appropriate. You see what happens, children with disabilities don't always get the same opportunities to go to friends for tea or to go to extended family, maybe because of the mess they make or the noise they make. You know, people can be reluctant to extend that invitation. So it's just been by degrees, to be honest. I've gradually accepted that I'm not the best for my children, even though I'm in the best place to make decisions for them. I can't deliver everything,

I'm just one person. What difference will it make to your life, Sharon? A complete difference. I'd be able to work, I'd be able to enjoy my children's company on my terms and enjoy the best of them and take them out and enjoy them as people rather than being of service to them all the time. When we're constantly tidying up and washing and cleaning and feeding and changing,

it's very hard to have that one-to-one relationship and just to enjoy someone's company. And I'd love to do that with Daisy and Lenny. I'd love to just take them out and enjoy the company for two or three hours, for an afternoon, for an overnight, and then return them to somewhere where they could be autonomous and independent, or as independent as possible. I was talking to Sharon King and, of course, her cuckoo clock,

which you might have heard earlier. But what can residential care give to such children that home life can't? And how easy is it to find somewhere suitable? Amanda Batten is Chief Executive of CONTACT, a charity for families with disabled children. How easy is it, Amanda, for a parent to find a suitable place for a disabled child? Well, not very and these are big decisions. I think, as Sharon says though, it is really important that disabled young people are supported to develop their independence as they grow into adulthood. I think the dynamics around children, disabled children going into residential care are a little bit different for the family and for the child.

And that tends to be a decision that no family takes lightly either and tends to happen when the family really feel that they can't cope anymore. What impact does it have on the child, regardless of age, to suddenly be away from the home that they're used to? Well, there are around 6,000 disabled children and young people in residential schools across the country. Some of those children will be in fantastic placements and doing well, others less so. I think one of the challenges is those residential placements tend to be quite a long way from the family home. So if your child is at school a long way away, like the other end of the country,

then it does mean their relationships with their siblings, with their local community is broken. And I think in that scenario, it's just so important for schools and colleges to really maintain those relationships with parents because otherwise that child can become quite vulnerable. But how beneficial is it for siblings, for their disabled brother or sister, to be in a school or residential care?

Does it mean actually that they get more attention from the parents? Well, I think, you know, every family is different and every family has to work out what's right for them together. I think what's really important here is there are services and support for families like support for carers, short breaks, respite and those are the kinds of services that don't cost a huge amount of money but they do enable a family to hold it together, to have a break sometimes for for parents to spend time with other siblings and it's that kind of support that can work well to keep keep the disabled child in

at home and the family and family life working where those services are being cut and that's what we're seeing increasingly across the country family can get to to a crisis point with impact on siblings and parents so what support is there for parents so that they don't reach a crisis if the child is staying at home? Well, it would be those sorts of services. So things like respite that would allow the parents to just have a break, have a bath, go shopping. I mean, we're not talking huge volumes of support, but just that low level of support can make a real difference. Support with managing challenging behaviour,

support to be able to go out and do things as a family. I think it's really easy to underestimate the impact that that can have. And where that support is being cut is when those pressures really start to build and we know from research that we did with the University of Leeds that about a quarter of parents of disabled children say they're caring for their disabled child for over 100 hours a week and that can be physical as well as kind of emotionally draining care and that's just not not sustainable without support how prepared are parents for the reality of a child no matter

how difficult suddenly no longer being there if they do go away you're right. I think even when it's the only option or families convinced it's the right decision, the actual impact of a child moving away can be quite unexpected, I think, for families. A lot of families tell us they feel a sense of failure or guilt. And obviously, we like to stress in our our experience it's not about the family failing it's about the services and the system around them uh failing them um but a lot of families will tell us the the abruptness of it because you lots of people feel parents would feel um a bit of sadness or anxiety when their child moves out but what can happen in this situation is there's not that gradual building of independence. So you could go from really providing a high level of daily care, intensive care for your child for years and years and years,

built up that identity as a carer, and then suddenly overnight that changes. And that's quite a hard thing for everybody to adjust to. When we're talking about the older children, children with difficult behaviour going into respite care, how available is that if there are cutbacks now? So that's a real problem. I mean cuts in respite and short breaks for this group of children is a real issue. We hear from families campaigning across the country around cuts to services and we see centres closing. We are part of a wider coalition of charities called Disabled Children's Partnership campaigning for the government to fill that hole in funding for local authorities to fund those sorts of services. And what sort of response are you getting? Well it's hard going. I think in a way this is an issue that's a little

bit unseen by government so I think there is growing rightly some growing awareness of the impact of cuts to special education budgets in schools. But some of the cuts to social care services like this that support families and to health services is sort of going a little bit under the radar. Because what happens is by cutting these kind of early intervention and family support services, families manage for a while and then they end up with their children in very high cost and expensive placements, and that's in no one's interest amanda batten thank you very much indeed

and there are by the way links on the woman's hour website where you can find support now i'll remind you again not that you needed it probably but today is valentine's day when you're supposed to treat the one you love but why do we fall. But why do we fall in love? How do we fall in love and with whom? Well, it may come as a surprise to discover that there are scientific answers to those questions. And Laura Mooker is a former lawyer who dedicated the last few years of her life to talking to people all over the world to find them. Her book is called Love Factually. What prompted her research? When I was growing up, I didn't know my dad. And so I lived with my mum and spent most weekends with my grandparents. And my grandfather, who I called dad, died when I was 11. And this

meant that I was left with two really loving and brilliant women, but no romantic relationship to observe. So I just did not get it. And quite unknowingly, I asked basically everyone I met about relationships. Like, how does it work? How do you know if you want to get married? Do people cheat? Like, what do you do? When do you break up?

And it almost was a thing. My friends would be like, oh, here she goes again. And then it wasn't until I was in Argentina and I'd been on a bus for 24 hours and I met this guy who was 95. He'd been married for 75 years. He didn't have a phone. He wasn't on social media. We spoke in Spanish and he'd been married for 75 years. And I thought, maybe other people might benefit from this or they might want to hear these people's stories. And then as I interviewed more and more people around the world,

I came to ask questions that couldn't be answered by interviews and that had to be answered by research. But the scientific studies are fairly well known, some of them. Why was it important to include the interviews with people to kind of back up the science? Or was it the interviews that came first and the science backed them up? Yeah, so it was the interviews came first and then the science came to kind of explore what it was that they were saying.

And some of the studies are well known, but some of them haven't been placed in the context of love. So we know, for example, that willpower is really useful and that we can teach children strategies to have better willpower. But it's not necessarily as well known that that can be used in conflict and that over time that can improve relationships, for example, or that that could be used within the context of infidelity. But there's also stuff I think that isn't well known, like attachment theory, and I think that's a complete game changer and it's something that I needed to research and couldn't rely solely on interviews for. Now attachment theory does make up a large portion of the book. How would you define it scientifically?

Well, it's quite an in-depth theory, so I'll try and give you my briefest possible explanation. It relies on the premise that we're very different in the way that we experience, see and understand love. So there's no one experience. And when we're growing up, we need two things. One is a safe haven in times of crisis and a secure base from which to explore. And according to studies of more than 10,500 people around the world, 58% of people have a secure attachment

style. And that means that you are comfortable with intimacy and commitment um you are pretty realistic in what you expect you're not freaked out by relationships they come pretty easily to you and you are more likely to have better mental health and be able to regulate your emotions but 42% don't have a secure attachment style and that's relevant not only to that 42% but to anyone who might know or be related to or be going out with someone to that 42% but to anyone who might know or be related to or be going out with someone in that 42% so it's really relevant. It's a theory that's often been used in the past to blame unattached mothers for failing their children. To what extent do the theories still stand because we've kind of tried to dismiss the fact that it's all the

mother's fault. So I personally don't think that it's all the mother's fault so I personally don't think that that's what attachment does I've I am aware that that's a criticism um and I'm and I'm conscious of that I try to make the point you know it's of course you're going to be in a better position to give to try to give your child a secure attachment if you're not living in a terrible poverty or you don't have a mental health problem and if you're not living in terrible poverty or you don't have a mental health problem and if you're in a supportive relationship and if you are supported. But what I'm really conscious, and also a lot of the research I've come across, is really careful to say that it's the parent or parents or caregivers.

So it's not necessarily the mother's fault, although it often does fall to the mother. So I'm conscious that that's a criticism, but I don't think that doesn't make the theory true. There is just so much evidence to back this up. I personally am a big believer in it. You begin the book about cheating. Why? I did an interview with a lady who, in her 20s and 30s, only dated married men, and she described what she felt for them as equivalent to a drug-like high.

Don't give me drugs, she said, give me a married man. And I really felt like that was such a great illustration of the different types of love and the distinction between love and lust. So what she felt for them was probably very different to the love they may or may not have felt for their partners. So I wanted to begin with that, explore the science behind this idea of love or early love and lust being like a drug. So what is the difference between love and lust? Well, so I think there are two different types of love within the context of romantic love.

Obviously, there are other types, you know, friendship and family love. Psychologists call it romantic love and companionate love and the idea is that romantic love hangs around for a couple of years maybe and is really primarily aimed at getting you to reproduce and generally there's a high overlap with lust which is largely chemical and then there's companionate love which I think is far more of a skill and a series of daily decisions and actually quite a lot of hard work. And research suggests that a lot of people don't necessarily understand that distinction. And that's dangerous because if you expect that you're going to have romantic, magical love forever,

and the evidence is pretty strong in suggesting that it fades to something much calmer and more akin to friendship love, then you'll be disappointed, even if actually you've got a really brilliant relationship. You seem to imply that the head should rule the heart in relationships. Is that what you're saying? Don't jump in and marry the guy you think you fell in love with at first sight. Wait and see whether your head gets on with him. I'm not even sure that saying it's the heart at the outset is right

because there's so many influences that aren't different than the heart. So, for example, women make different choices depending on whether they're highly fertile or not. And men are attracted to women more when they're highly fertile. Or when we meet someone, we sniff out their pheromones to figure out if their immune system is compatible with ours or not and that kind of stuff has nothing to do with the heart it's our bodies checking out whether the other person is someone that's good to reproduce with what would you say brings a person to the decision to avoid a committed relationship so that i think comes back to attachment theory. I mean, I think there are a

number of factors, but I think attachment theory can be one of them. So I described secure attachment earlier. One of the insecure attachment styles is avoidant, and it's something that I used to have. So 23% of the population have this, and it's basically an idealization of independence, a sense of suffocation in a relationship, and a tendency to inflate yourself and project what you don't want to see in yourself in your partner. Also, a very strong tendency to disconnect from emotions. So you might decide that someone isn't right, and then break up with them and not feel anything. But that doesn't mean you're really not feeling anything. And this might sound a bit far fetched, but there's quite a lot of evidence to back this

up. So, for example, skin conductance tests show that when avoidant people are being interviewed about their upbringing and saying that everything was fine, their skin is conducting electricity to suggest that they're actually having an emotional reaction. Or when they're asked to recall words relating to loss or separation, they're very good at appearing normal. But when they are distracted by a puzzle task, suddenly they are hypersensitive to loss and separation because they can't repress that anymore. So what difference then did your research make to your approach to love

if you'd been an avoider? Yeah, it was pretty mega, actually. Working on this book has completely helped me and also my husband understand my tendencies. So, for example, when he proposed, I felt quite stressed out about it. I didn't feel joy and I felt like I was disappointing him. But I said to him, I'm really sorry. I know this isn't what you would hope for in a person that you just proposed to. But this is just my avoidant attachment style getting a bit stressed out. And then after two weeks, two weeks, poor guy, I was I was back to normal. And we're married and

I love him. I'm really happy. And he knows, you know, he knows that it's not about him. So I think that having that knowledge allows us to talk about it in a way that means it's not about him and it's not about the relationship. And I think that's really, really powerful. I was talking to Laura Mucha. Now, lots of you got in touch about sending a disabled child into care. Ray tweeted, like KTP, I have a son with Prader-Willi syndrome and can understand her decision. Before people criticise, they need to think about why people make this difficult decision. Scaling cuts to social care, lack of respite,

the safety of other children. Often it's about love and making difficult decisions for the whole family. Before people judge, consider actually helping, either practically by training and volunteering to offer respite or donating money to provide social care and respite. Philippa wrote, I made the difficult decision when my son was 20. He has severe and complex needs and epilepsy. He's now in supported living 10 minutes away from me. The adjustment took many months for both of us and I probably underestimated how much of a wrench it would be for both of us. But over two years later, I absolutely know it was the right thing to do. Don't leave it too late is my advice. And my son's seizure consultant said the same. Do it while you have the strength and energy to get everything properly in place

and you can fight the battles that have to be fought. And someone who doesn't want us to use a name said, We're in this position. We need more respite hours. Our son is now 18 and wants to go out with peers but ends up with his mum and dad. His younger brothers have playdates all the time, he has none. He's grumpy and unhappy about this and we are exhausted. There are no after-school or youth clubs he can go to. Councils resist residential care or schools or colleges due to cost. We'll apply for residential college after school but unlikely to get it.

We're also terrified of sending him to residential care as he's so vulnerable in all ways. Corinna emailed, I have a wonderful daughter, Gracie, she's 23. She has severe learning delay caused by a rare epilepsy syndrome and needs one-to-one care. It was very hard to let her go, but it was the best thing for her independence and for her to be able to experience a more fulfilled life. She comes home to us every other weekend when we have real quality time together and the consistency she

now has has given her more confidence and I believe has helped with the development with her social life and communication skills. Recently she'd started going home for the weekend with her older sister and that I could only have dared to dream of in the past. If you find the right care home for your child, in my experience it will benefit you, the child and the whole family. Now join me tomorrow when we'll be discussing ceasing to breastfeed. We'll look at what changes in a woman's body happen when she stops feeding, why can it be a difficult time, and we'll hear from some lactation consultants on

how to actually stop breastfeeding for whatever reason. 10 minutes past 10 is when we start, we hope, without any hiccups. Join me if you can. Hello, I'm Gemma Cairney and I want to tell you about Don't You Forget About Me, a brand new hub for great music documentaries from BBC Radio 4. Whatever your musical taste, we've got you covered. Whether you want to discover the cult of Aphex Twin or appreciate the genius of Jeff Buckley. My whole philosophy and my whole discovery is that every emotion has a sound to it. Listen to old favourites and make new musical discoveries.

I don't have the answers and you shouldn't either. And I'm going to make it really complicated just to prove that. Just search for Don't You Forget About Me in BBC Sounds and subscribe now. the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.