Woman's Hour - Tracey Thorn on her friend Lindy Morrison; Shadow Chancellor Anneliese Dodds; Women in the Wedding and Beauty Industry.

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

Writer and singer-songwriter Tracey Thorn has a new book out, My Rock 'n' Roll Friend. The friend in question is Lindy Morrison. They first met backstage at the Lyceum in London in 1983 when Tracey was 20, insecure, shy, just starting out in the music business. Lindy, ten years older than Tracey, was drummer for an Australian band, The Go-Betweens. To Tracey she looked like "self belief in a minidress". Tracey joins Emma to talk about friendship, being a female performer and why she chose to write about Lindy.A year ago this week Anneliese Dodds was appointed Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer by the newly elected leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer becoming the first ever woman to hold this position. The economic landscape has shifted dramatically over the last year with women often being worst hit by jobs losses and access to support. Anneliese reflects on the big issues of the last year and talks to Emma Barnett about Labour’s plans for a post covid recovery.Women say they are at the back of the queue when it comes to Covid handouts. We hear from the wedding and beauty sector. Melanie Abbott talks to Kirsty McCall, a wedding make up artist had a breakdown after spending all her savings after Covid almost wrecked her business. Emma discusses the issues with Jessie Westwood, who set up the campaign What About Weddings? last year, and Victoria Brownlie, from the National Hair and Beauty Federation.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good morning. As discussion around jabs and unlocking the country rages on, a major underlying concern is how we will pay for the unforeseen economic damage the pandemic has brought. My first guest will have some views on that. It's her job. The Shadow Chancellor, Anneliese Dodds, incidentally the first woman to hold the post, joins us shortly. On today's programme, we will also hear from those working in predominantly female-led and staffed sectors, the beauty and wedding industries,

about their particular demands from the government after an incredibly trying year. But my question to you is, how have your finances been affected this year? How have you kept afloat? Do you think there has been a particular economic impact on women, the so-called she-session? What evidence have you seen perhaps in your own life? Or if things have stayed maybe the same for you, or perhaps got even better in

the financial stakes this year? There's also that reality, people not going out as much and have kept their jobs. As you watch the government provide unprecedented financial support, certainly in peacetime, have you perhaps changed your view about As you watch the government provide unprecedented financial support, certainly in peacetime, have you perhaps changed your view about the role of the government and its spending? Or are you concerned? Or both? Tell us about your finances this morning, how they've changed or altered or your view of finances and state finances may have changed over the past year. Text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour,

or you can email us through our website. Also on today's programme, away from economics, the singer turned author, Everything But The Girl star, Tracy Thorne is back with a new book about an amazing musician. Not herself, but her good friend. And we're going to talk friendship, drumming and the music industry and some incredible stories in between. So stay with us for that. But a year ago this week, Annalise Dodds was appointed Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer by the newly elected leader of the Labour Party, Sakhir Starmer, becoming the first

woman to hold this position. The economic landscape has shifted dramatically, to say the least, over the last year during the pandemic. And at the same time, Labour is trying to redefine itself after the heavy defeat it suffered in the last election, the worst since 1935, when its former strongholds in the North, the Red Wall, changed allegiance to the Conservatives. Annalise Dodds, good morning. Good morning. What's been your biggest achievement this year? Well, continually, I've tried to make sure that governments put the right policies in place to support people during this period.

It really has been unprecedented, as you said. We've never faced anything like this before. People's incomes in particular, you know, the huge amounts of unemployment we've seen. And it really has been a she-session, I would say. Actually, women have been more likely particularly mothers to lose their jobs during this period so I fought really hard to for example make sure that actually if kids are sent home from school that there is support there for parents it took a very very long time but eventually government accepted the need for

parents to be given that £500 payment. For example, if their kids got sent home from school, they accepted the need for them to be able to request furlough if they had to look after those children. And I've managed to achieve a number of those changes working with others, with lots of campaign groups, as well with Labour MPs, indeed sometimes across parties to get those measures put in place. Sometimes people might say, well, aren't those kind of smaller changes? Well, at least they have been changes for people's

circumstances on the ground. And Labour's been seeking to serve as a constructive opposition during this period. You know, we've been through a national crisis. We shouldn't be having party political knockabout. We should be getting the best for people. Why then there a headline about you personally, if you have done all of those things, and I understand you're saying you're working with others, last week saying, Starmer to axe shadow Chancellor Annalise Dodds after Labour poll slump? Well, Emma, I have to say, you know, anonymous tittle-tattle, frankly, which is, I think, what that article represented is not what I'm focused on. What I'm really focused on is achieving that change. It is getting policy fixed.

But it must have hurt when you read that in the Sunday papers. To be completely honest with you, you know, over the years, I fought against tax avoiders, financial speculators. I've had the far right target me, you know, vandalising my car, this kind of thing, to try and put me off. None of that has put me off. Didn't touch the sides. The reason I ask, though, is it's a bigger question,

which we'll get to, about impact. And if people know what Labour stands for, under Keir Starmer, under your shadow cabinet. And that's the issue. People don't have to necessarily know your name, but they do have to know what you stand for. And that's the bigger criticism here. There have been people briefing against you,

presumably within your own party, that you're not cutting through as the shadow chancellor at a time when we need leadership and a strong opposition. Why do you think you're not cutting through? Well, I wouldn't agree that I haven't been cutting through because we've just talked about some of those changes that Labour has achieved. And we have been through a very different period, actually, for party politics And we have been through a very different period, actually, for party politics. We've been through a national crisis.

You know, I suppose people could have said, well, you know, why wasn't Labour shouting against every single thing that the government was doing? Well, that's because we needed the government to succeed. Our countries needed the government to succeed during this crisis. Now, I'm appalled by a lot of what's taken place. Of course, I'm appalled by the high death rates that we've seen. I'm appalled by the fact we've had the worst economic crisis of any major economy, the worst in the G7.

I don't think that was inevitable, quite the opposite. So we really need that change, but we need to achieve it in a way that ultimately is practical, that's dealing with those big problems. Now, Labour's been through a difficult period, as you said, Emma. We did have a big electoral loss, unfortunately, at the last general election. Yeah, the policies you worked on under John McDonnell, those economic policies, didn't stack up to people, did they? Look, I think there were many reasons why people had turned away from Labour at that election. And unfortunately, from my point of view, unfortunately, anyway, wasn't the first time that Labour had lost a general election.

You know, you had to get through a number of defeats. And that's been, you know, you and I, I'm sure many of our listeners will have gone over that script many times. But I don't seek to go over that to, in any way, you know, make you go over old ground. But the point is, if I said to somebody now, how is Labour proposing to pay for the Covid bill in a way that is different to the Conservatives, in a way that is better and more credible? Not only have you got to win people's trust back, they might have a blank piece of paper in front of them. So let's just go through it because they might not know at all the answers to that. And that's why we're happy here to answer that.

That is the biggest question. And for instance, the Conservatives have ended up stealing some of the Labour economic blueprint. Take corporation tax. In your last manifesto, you said you'd raise it from 19% to 26%. The Chancellor is raising it to 25% for certain businesses. But if I look at your comments off the back of the most recent budget, you're now opposed to raising corporation tax.

I'm confused. No, that's not right. We're not opposed to having a change in corporation tax. What we're opposed to is the really short-termist stop-start approach that we've seen from Conservative governments over the last 10 years. You know, they said during that period that cutting corporation tax rates would lead to more investment. They said it was going to be good for our economy. It hasn't been. Now they finally realised that. And yes, you're right,

they are increasing corporation tax now. We have not opposed that. I'm afraid that's wrong. What we did oppose, though, was major increases in taxation as well as potentially major reductions in spending taking place right now. That's what the Conservatives were threatening. Sorry, if I can just finish. I'm reading off your own website, though. You set out opposition to tax rises as economically illiterate

because they're going to seem to punish businesses at a time when many are struggling to operate. That's what I'm talking about. Yes. And I was just about to say, sorry, a moment ago that the problem with the Conservatives approach is that they're making many of these changes right now, not on corporation tax, because the increase for corporation tax is coming in actually in two years' time. But if you look at what they're doing to household incomes, they've got a very, very different approach. They're hammering them right now because they're forcing local councils to increase council tax very, very substantially, going up to 5%. That's a Conservative government decision that they set out in their spending review. It's not something that's being chosen by local authorities. They're also, as you know, cutting the pay of workers like nurses,

for example, in real terms. That's happening now. That's weakening household finances right now. Just to be accurate, there is a consultation on what will be going on with that pay and we don't know what that will come back as. Well, the envelope that government has set out for that pay discussion, for the independent pay review body, their envelope from government would include a real-terms pay cut. That's what the government set out previously. Now, I hope that public pressure

and pressure from Labour will change that position. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. But what the government has set out, what they've set out, though, is for a real-terms pay cut. But the overall point of this, Emma, to go to your question, is that, yes, we need to see changes to taxation in the future. I've been very, very clear about that. Well, what are they?

But what we should not be seeing, what we should not be seeing, though, is an increase in tax and a reduction in spending right now. It's not just Labour saying this. The IMF, the OECD, huge numbers of expert organisations, businesses, trade unions and others, they are all at one in saying what we've got to focus on now is growth. But do we see that from this government? No, unfortunately, we don't because of those hits on household incomes. How are you going to pay for it? Could you give us any details whatsoever? Because it can't all come from corporation tax.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said higher taxes are inevitable. So how will you raise taxes? Yeah, Emma, you didn't ask me exactly that question a moment ago. You asked about taxation. But on the question of how we would pay overall for any remaining deficit, obviously that will depend on what's taking place with interest rates. That will impact on how sustainable that debt is. Now, the first thing that we would do to make that debt more sustainable right now is to grow the economy.

Because when you do that, you have a bigger tax base. That means that ultimately you'll be getting more revenue in and you'll have fewer costs because you'll have to pay less, for example, in Social Security. So that's the very first thing that government should be doing, focusing on that growth. Exactly what the Conservatives would argue they're doing. Well, but because of what we've just been talking about on household finances, for example, they haven't had that focus on growth and building confidence that's so necessary to get our economy out of the doldrums, to be increasing the size of that tax base as well. The furlough, the way that they've supported, we're going to talk about this in more

details, the grants that people have been issued, they would say everything they're doing is to support the economy. I suppose what's the difference? What are you actually saying, apart from growing the economy, where are you going to make some cash from, Anneliese Dodds? Well, one of the most significant areas is through something I've talked about so many times, stamping out the absolutely eye-watering amounts of waste and mismanagement that we've seen during this crisis. I mean, from the very, very beginning, I've been clear that £22 billion being spent on an outsourced test and trace system that has not worked from the beginning when we've got far, far cheaper alternatives. You know, you look at how the systems worked in Wales,

where it was delivered through local public health teams. It's been far more effective and it's been far less expensive. And we see, unfortunately, the Conservatives always reaching for those kinds of centralised approaches, outsourced approaches. And really the waste of public money on some of this has been absolutely eye-watering. And that's not minimal. As I said, this is stretching into the billions of pounds. I have asked this in a couple of different ways, and that's an important point. We've had a message actually just about that. But a message also here talking about, you know, you've got all the answers.

Could Labour have done better sitting on the sidelines? Much easier to criticise. Labour's mandate still seen by this particular list as spend, spend, spend. Do you not accept that you have to raise taxes? Well, I would say we don't want to just criticise. We do want to set out those solutions. And when it comes to taxation, you know, we've just been talking about how for a long time Labour said that, for example, those reductions in corporation tax rates really didn't make sense. I want to see big changes coming in in taxation for our high streets because I think the business rates impact on particularly our smaller shops. You know, what we're seeing up and down the country with all those units being empty. That is really appalling when we see some of the internet giants paying so little tax overall.

We need to have a rebalancing. You know, it's something I've called for for a very long time indeed. So we do need to see change. What I'm hearing is about a rebalance and the growth of the economy and a removal of waste. But what I'm not hearing is about how you will get any of the money back through taxes, which the IFS say you have to accept, that people have to accept who are working in this area's policy. Is that not the case then? Or do you just not know yet? Well, we've got to be honest that we don't know what the rate of growth of the economy will be and we don't know what the interest rate changes will be that would make the debts more

or less sustainable. But how sustainable is that for you as a position that you can't share any of that yet because you say we just don't know? Well, no, it's not the case that we don't know. But let's look at what's happened to the national debt over the last 10 years. Under Conservative-led governments, it's increased from 1 trillion to 1.8 trillion over that period. So it's increased very substantially under Conservative-led governments. Now, the critical question is whether in the future we're going to see a more sustainable approach to public finances where we won't see over the longer term, particularly a deficit becoming less manageable over time

and where we're going to face up to some of those reasons why we've had such an unsustainable economy before. I suppose... Absolutely fundamental. Aren't you just doing what one of our listeners just said? It's easy to criticise from the sidelines without saying how you will do it, but you're saying there's lots of unknowns or known unknowns at the moment.

A lot of people have been in touch with us over the last 24 hours about exactly what you're talking about, growing the economy, getting back out there. Are vaccine passports un-British? Well, a passport based just on vaccination would be not in line with our national values because it would be penalising those people who aren't able to get vaccinated for health reasons. It wouldn't be fair on those, for example, younger

people who wouldn't have been able to have got the vaccine by the time they might be coming in. So that doesn't make sense. Where the government might be talking about a different approach, you know, where, for example, they've flown some kites around what they've called certification, where you could be talking about either a vaccine or a test result that you might have to demonstrate, for example, or proof that you'd been COVID positive over the last few months, that would be a different question. Our concern would be, though, that when we've had these kind of large-scale approaches

from government before, obviously we've had quite a lot of failure in the IT system supporting them. So we'd really need to make sure that actually this would be good value for money, that it's really necessary. The reason I ask, in case people perhaps are confused, is that Keir Starmer said that they go against the British instinct.

And when I was looking at polling on this, not your figures, which are behind the Conservatives at the moment, there's support for them. 78% of people support for travelling abroad. 7 in 10 support them for theatre, for indoor concerts or theatre. 6 in 10 support it for the pubs or for the abroad. Seven in ten support them for theatre, for indoor concerts or theatre. Six in ten support it for the pubs or for the restaurants. Isn't this just another example of you being out of step with what you think the British public want,

which leads to you losing at the ballot box? Well, no, Emma, I don't think that's right. And we've got to be clear what we're talking about here. Labour's been very... They were very clear. No, because actually Labour has been very upfront that when it comes to international travel, we already have a system of what you could call vaccine, yellow fever, for example. But what we're talking about now, you've got the majority

of the British public saying they're okay with it. Yes, for international travel, that's why we said we're happy. But for domestic purposes, I think if those very same people were asked, well, do you think that approach would be fair if it's based only on vaccines when we still have a large number of people in the UK who've not been vaccinated? I think you'd get a very different response, actually, because people then would accept that it's not fair. And that wasn't the question, I think, probably that was asked in that poll. They were asked about getting back out there and how they felt about it and that instinct that we were just talking about. Let me bring you on to women's safety, because it has been ruled now

that the police acted appropriately at the Sarah Everard vigil. That's what the independent watchdog has found. Keir Starmer said the policing was wrong. Where did you stand on that? Well, I have to say I was really concerned by a number of the images from that protest. And I think it's important that we actually bring this back to why those women and girls were there in the very first place. I mean, they were there because of an absolutely horrendous crime.

And for many of them, this really was the last straw after so many years where we've seen, for example, rape conviction rates plummet to such an incredibly low level. And in those circumstances, I think some of those images really did strike a nerve, actually, for people. And really what we need to see now, I would argue, you know, isn't a focus necessarily on those protests. It's a focus on what we can actually do for women who are facing that kind of violence all of the time. I mean, we've had a sentencing bill, for example, going through the House of Commons, literally nothing in there around violence against women and girls. You've not answered my question, really, which is at the heart of it. You also need people to have faith in the authorities.

You need to have trust. And was it not irresponsible of the Labour leader to say the policing was wrong before we got the report back? Was it not irresponsible of other politicians to call for Cressida Dick to resign? I'm not saying you did that. But they've been cleared, the Met Police, who are trying to keep people under the rules of lockdown. Yeah, and I did not call for Cressida Dick to

resign and neither did Keir Starmer. And I think you'd be quite hard pushed, actually, to find anyone who has a lesser commitment to the rule of law, to making sure that people are treated fairly, including, in fact, members of the police forces and others involved in criminal justice than Keir Starmer. So I really don't think that this is a problem when it comes to the Labour Party. We are absolutely committed to making sure that we get out of this situation where we see rising crime and a lack of action. What she did say was she didn't find it very helpful that people were passing judgment, as Keir Starmer did there,

about the policing not being right before there was this report coming back because they weren't on the ground. And that's what she took issue with, not necessarily about being called to resign. Speaking of resign and staying in the post, will you still be in post when I next talk to you? Are you expecting to still be there after the next reshuffle in the same position?

I very much hope that you might invite me back on again. I'm certainly a regular listener. I expect I would be. You know, Keir's been very clear that he has confidence in me. I really want to stay in this position. You know, it's really important for me that we get our country's economy to a far, far better place. I think we've seen during this crisis how many weaknesses it has, but, you know, also how many opportunities we have as well.

Well, we look forward to talking to you again as Shadow Chancellor with more of those details. Annalise Dodds, thank you for your time. Thanks very much indeed. Thank you. Lots of messages coming in, which I will come to very, very shortly. But let's just speak now to, as I was telling you we would, the writer and singer-songwriter Tracy Thorne, most famous as one

half of the band Everything But The Girl, who has a new book out, My Rock and Roll Friend. The friend in question is Lindy Morrison. They first met backstage in London in 1983 when Tracy was 20. As she puts it, insecure, shy, just starting out in the music business. Lindy, 10 years older than Tracy, was a drummer for the Australian band The Go-Betweens. So Tracy, she looked like self-belief in a mini dress. Tracy, good morning. Hi.

She sounds awesome. She is awesome, yeah. And I think when I met her and, you know, as you just said, I was 20 years old and she was 31. She seemed especially awesome to me. You know, she represented experience and worldliness and confidence. And I think kind of looking for role models and trying to work out how to how to be in that world. You know, she was very inspirational person to meet. I was going to say, though, how did you convince the publishers that you could write a book about your friend, essentially, in this kind of world? Because it's quite an unusual way of doing things. It is. I mean, I had to say to them, look, you know, I'm not proposing

a straight rock biography here. You know, that would be a hard sell because I'm writing a book about someone that a lot of people haven't heard of. So it's not got the celebrity angle. So I kind of tried to sell it to them as a novel, really just saying, you know, imagine, you know, page one of a novel, you're introduced to a character you've never heard of before, but the job of the writer is to make you care about them and, know tell their stories and along the way explore other themes you know which I look into all sorts of things about just friendship and um so you know that was the kind of proposal and that was the basis there's a there's a description just because I'm in the interviews business there's a description of an interview that she went through that I couldn't believe will have would have actually

happened on on television could you tell us a bit about that and the sexism she was dealing with? Yeah, so I opened the book with a scene of her being interviewed live on television back in 1987. And the theme of the interview, as so often we both found, was, you know, women in the music business, sexism in the music business. And as so often happened, you know, women in the music business, sexism in the music business. And as so often happened, you know, if you were a woman, you were the one sort of called upon to explain sexism in the music business and to define it. And so she gets asked, you know, fairly idiotic questions. Would your parents prefer you to be married? Which, you know, are they happy with you being a drummer in a band? And then they bring on a biker, just kind of cartoon, macho, blokey biker to set up conflict with her, to challenge her about what does being a feminist mean? do you shave your armpits? This kind of stuff. You know, and here she is.

She's a woman, you know, an artist, you know, a creative person, very well established and a very highly respected band. And that's the level on which she's expected to discuss her work and her life. So, you know, it's a good introduction to the book, that scene,

because it kind of sets up the world in which she was moving and me too. And also it was, and it still is, incredibly unusual to have a female drummer, wasn't it? You know, she had to deal with the judgments on that front as well. Yeah, I mean, we both often found ourselves in the minority. And I think the situations in which that could be most irritating were things like, you know, on tour, turning up to do a gig at the soundcheck and the crew are all men, you know, and if you're the drummer, you know, then you're going to get

patronised about, do you even know how to set up your kit? You know, she'd get sort of lewd comments from men at the front, you know, because when you play the drums, you're sitting there with your legs apart, you know, men looking up her skirt. I mean, but I suppose the other thing that I love about this story and the way that you've told it is really at the heart of it is its friendship as well, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's not just a polemic about, you know, sexism in music. It's also a very affectionate portrait of someone. And I think, you know, that issue of female friendship, you know, it doesn't get written about that often. And I do think there's a lot in the idea of whether we were sort of opposites or reflections of each other, you know,

the ways in which we were different, the ways in which you often look to other women to be different to you so that you can all be individuals in the world, you know, not just have to sort of be representative every woman you know i was only thinking about this last week because i learned that um a dear friend of mine actually a former school teacher had passed away and i hadn't known and she was much older than me the age difference between between you two isn't that great but intergenerational friendships are very special things because you can learn, can't you? And they can say things to you and teach you in a way that's quite different.

Definitely. And as I say, you know, the fact that I was 20 when we met meant that I was wide open to that notion of, you know, being inspired by someone else. I think what I didn't realise until much later on when we talked was how she'd taken stuff back from me as well. You know, I think she was quite inspired by meeting a younger woman who was new to all this, you know, perhaps not yet as weary of, you know, some of the stuff she was encountering. And I think, again, she found that just, you know, that incinerating, refreshing thing you can get from a friendship with a younger woman. Do you feel that things have got better since some of the things that you have described in this? For instance, with what happened to Lindy, I'm talking specifically about the music industry, but of course, talk more broadly.

She was, talk to us about what happened at the end of her time in the band, because the women were fired. Yes, I mean, you know, the band fell apart in acrimonious circumstances as bands very often do and she and amanda the other woman were fired quite unceremoniously by the two male singer songwriters at the front of the band um but it was really what happened in the aftermath of that um you know lindy was very much a founder member of the band. They were a trio when they started, two guys and her. And once the story of the band began to be told more, she just gradually, gradually, incrementally got sort of written out of it so that it turned into the story of two, you know, male singer-songwriters and their achievements. And I think, you know, the more I started to research it and find examples of this in reviews or in other books that were written,

there was a documentary made about the band and, you know, the preview of it just said three decades, two friends, one band. And I thought, wait, hang on, it was three friends. You know, where's she gone? She's literally been airbrushed out of the picture. So part of what I did was to kind of write her back into her own story and say, look, she existed, you know, she was there. Which we do see having to happen with women across genres and across the ages.

She has read this book, I presume? Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, you know, I've tried to get it as finished as possible because I didn't want it to be too much of a sort of, you know, collaborative work where you're trying to, you know, write it as a committee. You can't write books like that. You have to be able to author them. But when I had a finished draft, yes, I had to send it to her, you know, with my heart in my throat, thinking, if she hates this, then I'm really stuck. But, you know, if you read the book, you'll discover that she's someone who believes in honesty and artistic expression and freedom. And so, you know, she read it and said, yeah, go for it. How is your friendship now? Not just about, you know, in light of this book, but, you know,

as you've got older, has it stayed the same? Has it changed? We had a long period when we drifted apart. You know, her being back in Australia, me being here, meant that the tie got stretched a bit thin and we both got distracted. We both had kids, you know, our lives changed. But I flew out to Australia the year before last when I was in the process of writing this. And we spent 10 days together and realised that, you know, with a sort of close friendship, you can pick it up again quite quickly. And, you know, the threads of it were still there. I could still recognise there were lots of things

about our younger selves and the sort of dynamic between us that was the same, but it was like seeing it enacted by two older women. Well, I'm sure others will also be able to relate to that. Tracey Thorne, thank you for talking to us. The book is called My Rock and Roll Friend about Lindy Morrison, the two names you need to hear there. Now, pressure, as I was saying,

is growing for a targeted female-centric strategy when it comes to COVID and the economy. Building on our conversation with Annalise Dodds, the Shadow Chancellor, last month data from the Office for National Statistics showed women have been hit harder than men. The so-called impacts of that you've been telling us

about, and we'll go to those in a moment. They've reported greater levels of anxiety, balancing more homeschooling, childcare. Meanwhile, two sectors predominantly staffed and run by women said that they have been particularly badly hit, beauty and weddings. Hairdressers and beauty salons, of course, have been closed for hit, beauty and weddings. Hairdressers and beauty salons, of course, have been closed for a total of eight months since the start of the

pandemic. Weddings were banned in the UK for more than three months last year. And when they did restart, only six people could go and in exceptional circumstances. Spokespeople for these sectors feel they've been pushed to the back of the queue when it comes to COVID handouts, while more traditional male sectors, they say, have been prioritised by the government. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has spoken to one woman stuck in the middle of a double whammy working beauty and for weddings. Kirsty McCall, a hair and makeup artist. I usually do around 100 weddings a year and last year or in the pandemic year, I've done seven. Some clients which have actually postponed six times so far. It's just heartbreaking.

How are you managing financially? I was lucky enough to get the self-employment grants, but the last grant that I received was back in November and I have not received a penny since then. My husband was one of the excluded, so he's been given no financial support at all, which leaves us with our two young children in a really difficult financial situation. Our mortgage has still needed to be paid every month. Our bills are still coming out every month. And yet there's there's nothing going in. We've used the last penny of our savings last week and we're already in our overdraft and really scared about how we're going to get out of it.

I'm just holding on until the fourth grant payment, which we can't even apply for until the end of April. Would there have been any way that you could have got another job? You know, we have heard of people going to work in supermarkets and things. Because we've got two young children and obviously there was homeschooling needed to be done and things like that. We had to make a decision that one of us had to go and work so it was decided that he should go and do that because I still of course had the constant admin of all of my 120 brides I needed to be able to get back to them straight away my children needed me so my husband went and took a job on a building site as a labourer. And he's

been doing that through the snow and the rain and everything. He's really come through for our families. He's actually our hero right now in this household. What's his usual line of work? A fashion and commercial photographer. He's been doing it for over 20 years. He had just gone self-employed. But then, the pandemic struck and it turned out another sector that was closed down that was closed down and he was one month short of getting financial support it's quite upsetting when you know that people within furlough to getting that regular money every single month how much have you had in grants around 15 000 pounds doesn't even cover our mortgage payments let alone food or any of the other necessities.

My life savings have had to go on paying my mortgage and feeding us and paying the bills. You know, we have no money at all. In fact, we've got less than no money. And we've just had to put all of our plans, all of our goals in life on hold for, we feel like we're two to three years behind now in our lives. How much did you have in savings? About £15,000 in savings. Seeing that pot of money dwindling is devastating. When things open next week you can still only have very very limited weddings is that going to help you at all?

No to be to be brutally honest we've got the situation where we're looking to obviously reopen on April the 12th for Heron Beauty which is wonderful but our kits have all expired we haven't worked for a year so I've had to throw away over two thousand pounds worth of makeup kit. Can't you hang on to a year old foundation? No. Once you've opened something, it's got a life. We're such a hygienic profession because once that air's got into them, you know, bacteria can start to form and all of those things. You have to be so, so careful. Especially at the moment, of course. Of course. You know, the wedding industry is not reopening until the 21st of June.

Even that depends on the roadmap that's been set out by the government. Yeah, it's terrifying. Obviously, the financial effect has been massive. But what about the effect on you aside from money considerations, which obviously have been pretty bad? I have found it very, very hard on my mental health. Being a hair and makeup artist, making people happy, making them feel like the best version of themselves isn't just a job to me. It's part of who I am. It's what I need to be doing every day. I'm so passionate about my work.

So to be able to be told by the government, you cannot be you, it has had a real effect. I actually suffered a really awful breakdown over Christmas. I'm still in recovery now. I didn't realise it was such a physical thing. You know, I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't function. I'd be laying there fast asleep in bed and then all of a sudden I felt like someone had stabbed me in my stomach and I would wake up gasping thinking oh my goodness what's just happened um you know and all of a sudden halfway through the day nothing's happened but I'm uncontrollably shaking. Will you be well enough when the wedding season we hope finally does reopen? Yeah I mean I must admit that is the thing that is like the shining light for me. I've had

a little taster. I was able to do one photo shoot a couple of weeks ago. There are special insurances for TV, film and commercial photo shoots. And I was terrified. But I went along and I did it and I found myself again I really did you know that could have gone horribly wrong I could have found it completely overwhelming but luckily I didn't luckily I found me again in that work and I just thought my goodness I just need to get back to my brides I can't wait for my first trial when I can sit with my client have a good chat about her wedding and get all excited and talk about the wonderful things. You know, I'm really craving it. And I feel like that's my lifeline at the moment

is actually being able to get back to work and be me again. Kirstie McCall-Hare, a makeup artist speaking to Melanie Abbott. Jessie Westwood set up a campaign called What About Weddings last year. They've sent a strongly worded letter to the business department. Tell us what you're asking for specifically, Jessie. Yeah, I mean, what we've been asking for as a campaign hasn't really changed in 12 months, which says everything really. But for us, we're asking for parity with other sectors, so parity with other live events, hospitality, parity and support for the people in our industry

and support in itself. We just haven't had that financial support to get us through a year and what will be another three, four months of closure. What about COVID grants, though, that have been made available? I suppose I'm asking in the light of, you know, we've just been having a big chat about the economy. All sectors have been clamouring for help. Yeah, there have been grants available, but very few of them have been available to the wedding industry. We're not actually classed as hospitality. So we haven't seen any of the grants that hospitality have had. We were not eligible to receive the closed restriction grants, otherwise known as the LRSG, because we were deemed open even when we were restricted to 15 and 30, which is just not a viable level of

trade for us. They refused to give us those. And the only other grant really that's been available to us has been the additional restrictions grant. And that has been discretionary. Local authorities have been able to decide where that goes to. Many of them have, instead of giving it to home-based businesses and those within our sector, have again continued to give them to people who are paying rates. So again, we found 50% of the wedding industry have received absolutely nothing in financial support in the last year. Are you comforted by anything that the government have said back? I mean, throughout the pandemic, what they've told us, personal care, wedding businesses have had access to the government's unprecedented 352 billion package of support,

including cash grants, government-backed loans, extended furlough scheme. And we've recently updated our guidance to help these businesses plan ahead with greater certainty. We continue to engage with the sector on what more can be done. In short, no. There has been some changes to the additional restriction grant guidance recently, which we hope will mean more grants reach more people. But it's just not sufficient. The average grant that we found people received if they did get access was £1,334. It's just not sufficient when you've lost over a year's worth of trading. And we have said, instead of basing

these grants on rateable value, should we not base it on turnover and loss and then really support the people who need it most? Let's bring in Victoria Brownlee, because also opening up on Monday will be the beauty sector. Victoria's from the National Hair and Beauty Federation. Of course, there's been a much wider impact away from weddings, but they're linked on beauty and hair salons. Victoria, where are you coming in on this at this point? weddings and events and things like that and the problem that we've had with even the periods where we have been reopened and I think we estimated we've been closed for more than 250 days over the last year and without the events and weddings, parties, Christmas events for example going on there's just a massive drop in business that 75% of businesses were down compared to the period pre-COVID, even in the time when they reopened. Do you think you've not been taken seriously enough because it's a women-led and women-centric business? Or what do you make of that argument that some have put forward?

I certainly think at the beginning there was a tendency to be dismissive, to see it as a frivolous sector. We're 82% female owned as an industry we've got an 89 female workforce so um ultimately we are representative of of women um but i i certainly think that the government have learned their lesson um in terms of perhaps uh you may have seen some of the and the laughing that went on in Parliament when the mere mention of having haircuts or beauty or wellness treatments being reopened again and the backlash that they received from that. I certainly think that they're being more careful. But has that translated into financial support that you would say has been what it should be? Yeah, I think also there has to be an effective lobbying effort from us as a sector to present ourselves as respected business owners and entrepreneurs. And we have a

responsibility there. We feel that we managed to do that in the latest series of grants that have been laid out. We have been given the higher level of government grant, which in the first tranche of support last year, we were given the lower £6,000, which in the first tranche of support last year, we were given the lower £6,000. This time, our sector can receive up to £18,000, which is a massive step forward. But the problem we've got with that is, as was mentioned by Jesse,

a lot of that is based on rates, if you're a business rate payer, and we're a 60-40 split in our industry, where 60% of the industry is actually self-employed or you rent a space or a chair within a business so therefore they wouldn't be eligible for that support. So that's what you're talking about that particular group I mean you have the backing of MPs on the all-party parliamentary group on beauty aesthetics and well-being they're calling for that VAT cut as well as further support for education and training I suppose I just wanted to understand

we're hearing already Victoria about there's going to be queues around the block for the hairdressers. I mean, we all need it. We all do. Speaking very much from personal experience. But do you worry that you actually won't see some of the harm for a while because some won't be coming back? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the problem that we'll find is that with the return to reopening under the restrictions that we have to operate under, we've got some of the most heavy handed stringent guidelines that there are for any of the sectors reopening. And that means that we'll be operating about 70 percent capacity within the premises. Also, per member of staff, they're losing about two hours of appointment times per day per staff member so even at full appointment book they're still massively lost taking a massive cut in the amount of money that they can actually earn as income and when you're chasing debt and

trying to to cut that um the the debt that you've accrued over this period it's one of those situations where we're going to need a long period of stability in order for businesses to get back into some kind of way of operating. I suppose that's the focus. Victoria Brownlee, we're going to have to leave it there. Jesse Westwood, thank you to both of you. So many messages about your finances. Matt saying his wife has kept them afloat over the last year, didn't know what he would do without her. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. I really hope you enjoyed that podcast. I'm here just to tell

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