Woman's Hour - Tracy-Ann Oberman plays Katherine Hepburn on NYE on R4

Episode Date: December 24, 2020

‘Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner’ was a famous 1967 film about an inter-racial marriage in the US. Filmed against the backdrop of race riots that took place the same year, it starred Sidney Poitier, Spencer Tracey, Katherine Hepburn and Katherine Houghton. Actor, Tracy-Ann Oberman has written a play called ‘That Dinner of 67’ looking at what happened during the making of the film. She talks to Andrea Catherwood about playing the iconic Ms Hepburn.The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has deemed an Instagram campaign by online shopping firm Klarna, that ran in April and May, as ‘irresponsible’ for encouraging shoppers to use their ‘buy now, pay later’ service to cheer themselves up during the pandemic. The Swedish company has over 10 million customers in the UK, with an average age of 33. Its model allows payments to be staggered for products, with no fees or interest. Consequently, companies with similar models to Klarna, do not have to abide by Financial Conduct Authority rules, and thus customers are not protected and risk getting into debt. The Labour MP Stella Creasy is spearheading a campaign to make an amendment to the Financial Services Bill to better protect consumers.In her book ‘The Little Library Christmas’, Australian-born food writer Kate Young guides you through the Christmas period with festive food, edible gifts, reading recommendations and suggestions for Christmas films. She joins Andrea to talk about how to Cook the Perfect Jansson’s Temptation – a Swedish dish that she cooks every year as one of her Christmas rituals. The stereotypical Christmas scene is familiar - a big house, warm fireplace, and plenty of space for Father Christmas to leave the presents. But that's not the reality for most children. Which is why Hollie McNish wrote her poem 'You do not need a chimney', to reassure children living in flats and hostels that St Nick will still be able to get to them. Hollie joins us to read the poem, along with Sue Whitfield, who's had help from Homestart - the charity that will benefit from sales of the poem. Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Tracy-Ann Oberman Interviewed Guest: Stella Creasy Interviewed Guest: Kate Young Interviewed Guest: Holly McNish Interviewed Guest: Sue Whitfield Photographer: Joseph Sinclair

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast on Christmas Eve with me, Andrea Catherwood. Good morning and thank you for joining us on what I suspect is, well, to put it mildly, one of the strangest Christmas Eves we've ever experienced. Many of us are preparing for a different Christmas from the one that we might normally have or even the one that we were planning just a week ago. With all that in mind we will very gently try to inject some festive spirit. We'll be cooking the perfect Janssen's Temptation. It's a dish that I'd never even heard of until a few days ago and now it seems to be everywhere. It's the comfort food of Christmas 2020 and we are all in need of that.

And if you've got little ones who are concerned that Santa Claus might not know where they are this year, well Holly McNeish will be joining me and she will read her poem, You Do Not Need a Chimney. I think you can see where we're going with that. And if you've been buying presents online or treating yourself, you may have used buy now pay later schemes like Klarna. They're a really big business and they're growing fast. Well, MP Stella Creasy will be here to tell us why she has got some concerns over the way they operate.

It's something that you might well have an opinion on if you use them, and at least 8 million of us do in the UK. Let us know, and let us know what you think about Christmas, or anything really. It's social media, on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through the website. But first, guess who's coming to dinner? Now I know if you're in tier four the answer is nobody but we're going to park Christmas for a few minutes and we're going to go back to that iconic film of the late

60s of the same name. Now even if you don't remember Guess Who's Coming to Dinner from the time or if you've never watched it you may still know what it's about. A black man arrives at his white girlfriend's house to meet her parents. Now that might sound like a bit of a thin plot line today but it was shocking and groundbreaking at a time when interracial marriage was still illegal in parts of the US. Well, actor and playwright Tracey-Ann Oberman has written a new radio play about the making of the movie, which starred Katharine Hepburn, Spencer Tracy and Sidney Poitier. The play is called That Dinner of 67 and it's going to be broadcast on New Year's Eve afternoon on Radio 4. And she is with me now.

Tracy-Anne, welcome. Hello. Thank you for having me. Now, there was an awful lot going on behind the scenes of the movie, as well as it being an amazing film. Is that what made you want to write a play about it? I've written three Hollywood tales, and they asked me if I would be interested in doing another one.

And the film always fascinated me. Sidney Poitier was the number one box office actor at the time. He was pure gold. He was an international star. He had sort of smashed the glass ceiling for any black performer, and indeed probably any performer he'd won an oscar and yet against that backdrop the civil rights the race riots were raging through america uh the lovings versus virginia trial was um deciding whether interracial marriage was illegal or not 16 states had banned interracial marriage and And then Stanley Kramer wanted to make this film.

And Spencer Tracy and Catherine Hepburn were cast in it. Spencer Tracy was desperately ill. He was dying, but he really wanted to do it. And Sidney Poitier knew that he had the full weight of the civil rights movement on his head. So there was a hell of a lot going on. Now, not only did you write this play but you play one of the lead characters the extraordinary Catherine Hepburn and as we've said there was a lot going on behind the scenes and as you mentioned Spencer Tracy was really ill when it was being made in fact he was dying and at a point the studio wanted to stop filming so I would like to play now a little clip from your play with you as

Catherine Hepburn in action, insisting that the filming continues. Hello? Stanley? Oh, is that you? Yes, I need to talk to you. It's 4am and you worry me. Is it? I'm up every night with him these days. I never know what time it is. I'm always waking people up. Okay.

After your call earlier, Spence and I talked, and we really do not think that the studio should shut this production down, Stanley. It's too important. There's so much awfulness right now. The race riots, Vietnam, that case in Virginia with that interracial couple,

the Lovings, the injustice, all of it. Well, I don't know what we can do. They can't find anyone who'll cover him. Well, what are they so worried about? Just tell me straight. Bluntly, that he'll die before we complete.

Oh, I see. He's seen as too much of a risk. Well, I may have a solution. Tracey, an absolutely wonderful way that you've captured her voice there. Tell us, what was her solution? Well, and that's a brilliant David Morrissey there, as Stanley Kramer. Her solution was to put her fee in escrow and Stanley Kramer, the director, put his fee in escrow

until the final shot on Spencer Tracy. So they didn't take a penny of it until he'd finished his own principal photography and that was the way they were able to fund it. Wow. Now, given that Spencer Tracy was so terribly ill when he was making the film, it's really interesting that he was so committed to doing it. I hadn't actually seen the film for years and years. I hardly remember it, to be honest. And I watched it last night. And knowing

that he's dying, it makes it an even more extraordinary performance. And there's a real polemic at the end about race and about the future. You could sort of see why he wanted to make it. It's kind of hard to understand today, but it was really controversial back in 1967, wasn't it? No, it really was. They had a big kiss, the interracial kiss in the airport. And, you know, the studio tried to,

Columbia tried to shut the film down twice, the first time nobody ever really knows what the reason was. Potentially, it was because of the interracial hot potato. And the second time was because of Spencer not being able to get any insurance. But, you know, I think every single person on that film knew that it was very important to make what looked like a frothy comedy. But actually, like all Stanley Kramer's films, packed this really powerful punch. You know, in the play, I had Kramer saying, I want this to play not just on the East Coast. I want this to play all over America, you know,

in Alabama. And Poitier says, yeah, they're going to lynch the popcorn boy first. But he really did make a film that spoke to America. Now, to add another layer to all of this, Catherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy were having a longstanding affair, but it was a secret at the time, is that? I mean, was it an open secret? How did that work? Well, yes, it was an open secret. They had this 25-year love affair. They had made, I think, nine pictures together,

and most of the time their love affair was conducted in many ways openly on screen. They had this incredible chemistry, Hepburn and Tracy, but he was always married to his wife, Mary. They had two children, one of whom was profoundly deaf. Spencer Tracy always felt very guilty about his son's deafness because he felt it was as a Catholic. It was his his his sins that have brought that on him. And it was an open secret in Hollywood. And I think people could see the chemistry between Hepburn and Tracy on screen, but they were never openly a couple,

but they loved each other very deeply. And as the last film they ever made together, and he died 17 days afterwards, this has a real poignancy to it because Hepburn wasn't even allowed to go to his funeral. Yeah, that's extraordinary, isn't it? I mean, you can certainly see their passion and their chemistry in the movie, but it is amazing that she didn't attend his funeral. Was that because of his family? Well, yeah. I mean, you know, when you look at the film again, and I did

so much research into all of it, but, you know, the tears that she cries, particularly in that last speech of Spencer Tracy's, which, as you say, actually gives the film the grit. She's sobbing in the background because it really hurt him physically to do that speech when she rang his wife after he died. And she apparently she said, you know, Mary, I'm here and, you know, he's dead and we both loved him. And apparently Mary said, oh, I thought you were just a rumour and put the phone down. So she was never allowed. I think apparently she did go to the funeral and stood at a huge distance to watch him being lowered into the grave. It's all very poignant. And that's the other thing.

I think that the play is not just about the politics. It's about love. It's about loss. It's about wanting to's about loss it's about wanting to do the right thing. How easy was it to to find out what was really going on in order to write the play because there must have been sort of so much you know rumour and intrigue it is Hollywood after all. Yeah well with all of those plays that I do and particularly this one I just research and research I really wanted to understand the backdrop of the politics of the time. But I wanted

the play to wear that quite lightly. And it was just all these pulling all these different strands together. It was understanding how, you know, who Hepburn was, it was understanding that she had lost a brother when she was young, and somehow, being with very self destructive Spencer Tracy, there was a part of her that wanted to save him and be his savior which i think you can see in my play and then on the other hand you have poitier who was wearing his his you know golden boy status very lightly and yet couldn't go on the set with spencer tracy his idol without his knees knocking together tell me a bit more about that because you know sydney poitier he was a massive star in his own right at the time. As you said, he was the first black man to win Best Actor Oscar.

But yet he was on set with these two legends. What were the dynamics like? Well, he was very, very nervous. And he was particularly in awe of Spencer Tracy. So, you know, in the research, it says he literally couldn't go on the set without his knees knocking together. And at one point he asked Kramer if he could do his scenes to these two chairs because he was so intimidated. So I use that in the play a little bit. Also, I think it was difficult because Catherine Kate Hepburn was very stressed and very conscious of keeping Spencer well and alive to do it. So I don't think she was particularly easy to be around. And there was a very difficult dynamic.

Also, I think Sidney Poitier knew that this film was a sort of frothy romance. And I think in my understanding, you know, he was very much a part of that civil rights debate. And there was a lot of pressure on this film of saying, you know, you're playing this noble black man who's unlike any black man. You know, he's almost like he's too good to be true. Yeah, he is. He's a god, isn't he? He's a doctor and he's basically saving the world. And he's a widow and he's lost his son. He's perfect, absolutely perfect. But then, as Kramer said, I wanted to make him almost godlike so that the only objection that the East Coast middle class parents, you know, with their liberal values could have

against the marriage is that he's black. Now, you pull together an amazing cast for this production. You've got Kenneth Branagh playing Spencer Tracy. You are obviously Catherine Hepburn. Adrian Lester, we've mentioned David Morrissey as well. How did you manage that? Yeah. And Daisy Ridley straight off of Star Wars. She's playing Catherine Houghton, who plays the girl. Well, I wrote it with every single one of those people in mind, never thinking that I would get it. I also wrote it a while before the George Floyd thing happened

and also lockdown. And I think I sent it to... I played Ken's wife at the National years ago and I sent it to him and he came back and said, I love this. I'd love to do it. As all of them, they all came back within about 24 hours and said, yes, please. And I was just really lucky that they could find time out of their filming schedules. I'm sure lockdown helped because most of those people probably wouldn't have been in the country at the time. Were we on? Well, fantastic. Tracey-Ann, you've got tomorrow and over the next few days,

we've all got slightly different Christmas plans, I'm sure. Have yours changed as well? Yes, we've had a lot of loss this year. We were going to pull the family together, but we've pared it right back down just to have my mum, who's in my bubble and who's on her own. But happy Christmas and a healthy, peaceful year to all your listeners and to you. Thank you very much and to you too. And you can listen

live on New Year's Eve on BBC Radio 4. The play is on at 2.15. I suspect you might have a rather large audience this year, Tracey-Ann. I'm sure you can also find it on BBC Science. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Now, shopping online has absolutely rocketed during the pandemic and along with it, the use of Klarna and other buy now, play later options. If you're not familiar with them, but you do shop online, you've probably seen them. When you come to pay, there's always a few options, you know, credit card, debit card, etc. And now increasingly, there is the option of paying later or paying in installments. It's got no interest and no fees, but you probably know what's coming.

The ease with which you can buy and of course get into debt is ringing some alarm bells. Well, Stella Creasy, Labour MP, joins me now. Stella, welcome. Hi Andrea. No interest, no fees, buy now, pay later. What's the problem? What's not to like? Well, as often in life, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. What we're seeing with these buy now, pay later companies like Klana,

Clearpay and Laybuy is that people are spending more than they can afford. And consistently now we're seeing a lot of research that shows that. And so getting into debt because they can't then afford the repayments later down the line. It's a very new technology for a very old problem, which is that it encourages people to spend more than they have because it looks like the price is a lot cheaper than it actually is because you're spreading the payment. But critically,

these companies operate in a loophole in our current credit regulation in the UK, which means that they don't have to provide the same information, the same affordability checks that you have with other forms of credit. So if you were to use your credit card, for example, or if you were to use a payday loan, they're not regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. So they don't have to give consumers the same warning, the same responsible messaging that other forms of credit have to do. And that's where we're worried that people are falling into the trap. Now, the Advertising Standards Agency have just upheld a complaint that you made about ads where influencers were buying things using Klarna to boost their mood in the pandemic. Why were you particularly concerned about that? Well, yes, I mean, we've seen an explosion of people

using these kinds of forms of credit over the last eight months. And it's a sign of what I'm worried about, sorry, in this industry that needs to change, that they were putting out adverts encouraging people if they were feeling low at home because of the pandemic and isolated to spend money to boost their moods because obviously it's it's very irresponsible to encourage people to get into debt as a way of dealing with perhaps mental health challenges and I'm really pleased that the ASA has upheld that complaint indeed what's interesting to me

is it's a parallel to a complaint I made a couple of years ago about payday lending companies like Wonga who were doing exactly the same thing, you know, don't worry about the consequences, just get some easy money now and make yourself feel better. It's that sort of behaviour that we have to change. Nobody's saying that there isn't a place for being able to spread payments. But I want these companies to have to be as responsible to my constituents as any other form of credit. And the evidence during lockdown is a lot of people are spending more money than they have, especially, you know, we're looking at possibly three, four million people losing their jobs

when they're not sure about their income streams. And then, of course, they get into a debt that they can't get out of. Now, Klarna have responded to us today. They've said that they are disappointed by the decision and that they were genuinely trying to recognise the mood of consumers in the first lockdown, but they do acknowledge that they were genuinely trying to recognise the mood of consumers in the first lockdown, but they do acknowledge that they missed the mark. Now, they've also said,

and I'm quoting here, this is frankly a bigger topic than us. It's across brands and sectors, regulated or not, and we believe that some leadership is required on this. Now, Klarna went on to say that they're going to set up a council with interested parties to provide some guidelines. Now, that obviously isn't the same as what you are calling for, which is for them to be regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. What do you think about that? Is that good enough, Stella? No, it's not. And, you know, this time of year, often turkeys argue that Christmas is a bad idea, don't they? Listen, I've been here before with companies coming into the UK like these companies have, offering new forms of credit like payday lenders did and saying that they can be trusted to look after consumer interests.

I want the government to learn the lessons of the payday lending industry. On the 5th of January, there will be a vote in Parliament for MPs and it's cross-party support. So there's Tories, Lib Dems and SNP people supporting this amendment to regulate these companies, just as we regulate every other form of credit. And frankly, when they put out statements like that, I think it shows why the government needs to step in. We are trying to show leadership in Parliament. I just hope the government will listen, because when they didn't listen on Wonga, there are still millions of people in this country who are in financial difficulty because they took out a Wonga loan when they were told it was affordable and it wasn't. Lots of people will be listening to this thinking, hold on, this isn't new. I mean, you touched on this yourself. The company is new, of course. I mean, this is relatively new, this idea of paying in installments, though. I mean, it is the model

that catalogues have been using for years. And, you know, there is a reason. Money's tight at the moment and people will turn to this kind of purchasing if it allows them to, for example, buy Christmas presents or, you know, school clothes so that they can have them when they need them and maybe they don't have the cash.

So there is a place for this. Do you think that that's the case? If it's regulated properly, that it could actually be useful? Yes, absolutely. Just as there is a place for short term lending like payday lending, if it is properly regulated, and bringing in the regulation we have from the campaign that we run, we've just seen the numbers of people complaining about debt caused by payday lending drop dramatically. These companies boast that they get consumers to spend 35 to 40 percent more than they

would have done if they'd used other forms of credit. So if you use your credit card or your bank account at the checkout and people will have seen now if they shop online that this comes up increasingly as the first option from retailers. That's not an accident. It's because they know if you can spread the cost you will spend more and that's fine if can afford it. But if they're not operating like other forms of credit, where they have to give you that information so you can make that assessment, then it's clear that problems are going to come. And what frustrates me is that the government ministers tell me they get that there is a problem and these companies probably need to be regulated.

The Financial Conduct Authority has launched an investigation into them, but the pace of change is very slow. We're on Christmas Eve now. I know many of your listeners might well have used these companies to buy things. And I'm really worried that if we don't get a grip of this industry, we could see another scandal like we saw with the payday lending companies. So my advice to anybody is please do the maths. It's not that that pair of trainers or that gift that you're buying is a third cheaper. You still have to pay the full price. It's just

over a couple of weeks. And if you are at risk of losing your job, which so many people are, then you may find that you can't afford these payments. And therefore, it could affect your credit rating. It could mean that you get into a debt that you can't get out of. We know already that a fifth of people say they've spent more than they can afford because they've been able to use buy now, pay later forms of spending. When these companies are boasting that they're signing up a new rating tailor every eight minutes in this country somebody has to say stop hang on a minute what's in the best interest of consumers and that's what we're trying to do on january the 5th and i hope every mp listening to

this and everybody worried about personal debts listening to this will ask their mp to agree the regulation matters the companies tell me they think they ought to be regulated it's just a bit like turkeys when it comes to Christmas. When it comes to proposals, they always say no. That's why we need to step in. Stella, thank you very much indeed for that. Just before you go, I'm asking everybody on the programme today, you're an MP for London constituency in tier four. I presume that your Christmas plans have been curtailed somewhat. Yeah, look, I'm heartbroken. My parents actually live two minutes down the road from me. But because my daughter is 13 months old rather than 12 months old,

we can't form a bubble with them. So this Christmas, in her special Christmas outfit, she will be going up and down the road in front of them to deliver presents, but not able to sit down to dinner with them. But I've also lost too many constituents seen too many friends struggling with long Covid and I'm very fearful about what will happen if we don't get a grip on this virus especially with the new variant in the UK to risk it and I know a lot of people feel like that it's heartbreaking that we've all been put in this

position but we will get through it. Okay well, I hope you have as good a Christmas as you possibly can. The whole idea of buying our pay later is something that we would like you to tell us more about. Do you think that this is a good service? Do you think it's a problem? Has it made you spend more? Maybe you think it's been a godsend this Christmas. We would like to hear from you about this and we'd also like to hear your questions for an item on the programme next week when Jane will be talking to

Dr Lucy Pollock who specialises in caring for the elderly or frail. Many of us are living to a very great age and she's going to tell us about conversations that we avoid discussing very often. So if you have a question concerning about getting old yourself

or about caring for a friend or a relative, do tweet or email us. You can text us on Women's Hour at 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. Now whatever part of the country or indeed the wider world you are listening to this in you probably aren't going to

be doing what you'd expected to be doing over the next few days. If you celebrate Christmas it's going to be a strange celebration this year and I'm joined by somebody who normally makes a huge deal of Christmas I think it's fair to say. It's a food writer, Kate Young, and she's even written a book about it, The Little Library Christmas. It's full of ideas for festive dishes, reading recommendations and even suggestions for Christmas films. Kate, welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Kate, in an ordinary year, when do you start planning and what are your Christmas rituals?

I spent quite a lot of my year thinking about Christmas. I from sort of November through until January, I'm either making things that I'll give to people eventually. I am watching Christmas films. I put Mariah on this year in, I think, October. So generally quite an extended period of time. And all of that isn't necessarily spending time in a house for Christmas, but it's all sort of the beginning of that Christmas season. Now, I think we can just about hear in your accent that you were born in Australia. When I think of Australia, Christmas in Australia, I imagine sort of Bondi Beach and barbecues and too much watching Neighbours when I was growing up, I'm sure. No, that's pretty correct. Okay, got it. So it's quite different from an English Christmas.

Certainly. I grew up in Queensland, which is tropical. There's lots of, because Australia's so big, there's plenty of climates. And some people have a slightly cooler Christmas, but where I'm from, it's really humid and really hot. And so we generally have seafood, cold meats, salads. We're outdoors a lot of the day. We're in the pool if it's too hot. We're in the air conditioning if we can possibly be. Now, what would you say to people looking at this Christmas and really thinking,

gosh, I'm going to be separated from my family. There are an awful lot of reasons for a lot of us just not to feel in the mood, frankly, for celebrating Christmas. Yeah, and I totally empathise with that. I think that when Christmas, I think Christmas can be a tricky time, even when it's not a global pandemic and we've been told to stay indoors. Because I think that rituals around Christmas sort of serve to remind us of things that aren't there anymore. Whether that's people or whether that's sort of a place you used to live that you have an emotional attachment to, whether that's an expectation that you were going to do x or y or z and can't do that this year uh i think rituals service serve to remind us of of things that aren't there and and therefore things that are tricky and so i think that it's a really good year to do something

different to not try and make it as it would be in other years but to eat your favorite food that has nothing to do with christmas watch you watch a bunch of new films that you haven't seen before rather than sort of trying to stick to the things that you would normally do. It has to be said, I think it's worth saying that for some people actually not having to go to the in-laws or perhaps not having a load of extended family over for days of entertaining might actually suit quite well. And, you know, having a load of extended family over for days of entertaining might actually suit quite well.

And, you know, having a very small Christmas might be some people's idea of a really gentle and relaxing time away from the normal mayhem. So I don't want to make out like everyone's having a terrible time this Christmas, because for some people, this actually might work out very well. One thing we will probably have more time for, many of us anyway, is watching movies and more time to read. In your book, you've actually got some recommendations. Can you share those with us? Yeah, I think that there's this sort of wonderful joy of reading, basically, lots of books that take place over the course of a year, is that even books that don't feel enormously Christmassy at the outset. So obviously, there are enormously Christmas-y books like A Christmas

Carol, like The Dark is Rising, a whole range of books that are sort of centered around Christmas. But even ones that aren't, it often pops up. So there's Christmas in Middlemarch, there's Christmas in Bridget Jones's Diary, there's Christmas in Adrian Mole, all of these books that sort of take place over a long time. You get to the Christmas scenes and you have the sort of hopeless Christmases or great Christmases or terrible Christmases or whatever it is. And that I find a particular joy is just coming across a little moment of Christmas. Adrian Mole is definitely one of my favorites because all of his responses to things that are being cooked, all of his poor mum's you know anxieties about cooking

and hatred of it is is so there on the page and I love I love Bridget Jones's Christmas scenes as well and all of that sort of anticipation of not being invited anywhere and not being wanted anywhere and then realizing that all of her invitations have fallen under her under her mat at her door and she's sort of misreplying and all of her friends are mat at her door. And she sort of missed replying and all her friends are furious at her because she hasn't responded to anybody's invitation. And of course, seeing Colin Firth in a really ridiculous Christmas jumper, which is enough to lift anyone's spirits, exactly.

Now, let's just talk about food. You're going to make for us Janssen's Temptation today. Now, I mentioned this earlier in the programme because I'd actually never heard of it. It's a Swedish or Nordic dish, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And suddenly, I mean, maybe this is the Nigella Lawson effect, but suddenly it's everywhere. So it's a dish that you make every Christmas Eve. Is that right? We have been. So when I moved to England in 2009, I was adopted by a family who I've spent most of

the Christmases since with. And we make Janssen's Temptation on Christmas Eve and have it as part of a Christmas smorgasbord. So we have it with Gravelux and meatballs and little boiled eggs with caviar on them and endive salads and all sorts of things that we sort of spread out and eat our way through over the course of hours but the yarnsons temptation is my favorite bit of it so talk us through that what's it's got some weird kind of fish in it right it does have fish in it so it has it is essentially a potato bake it's got waxy potatoes that are cut into sort of um french fry thickness or a little bit thicker than that, layered up with onions or leeks or, you know, onions is traditional, but I used leeks last year and they were delicious as well. And then the sort of key ingredient is the little Sprat fillets that you can get either online or in Ikea.

So lots of grocery delivery companies deliver them now as well. It's kind of key not to use anchovies because they're super salty compared to the sort of much sweeter sprats. But I love a tinned fish. I'm always looking for an excuse to eat something with tinned fish in it. And these ones are particularly delicious, sort of sweet and vinegary and a little bit salty too. And then you pour cream mixed with, we do in our family, my cousin Mia, her mother adds some caviar from a tube, the sort of blue tubes of caviar you get from Ikea as well. And that is fantastic.

So you mix that in with the cream, put butter and breadcrumbs all over the top and then bake it. Fantastic. So it's a real comfort food. Super comforting. And it's something that I now make sort of throughout winter, not just on Christmas Eve. Now, I wanted to mention something that comes up at the end of your book. There is a quote from Virginia Woolf's personal diary and it lists her resolutions for the next few months. I'm not sure. Are any of us brave enough to make resolutions this year? How do you feel about that? So a few years ago, I was with my friend Misha for Christmas Eve and instead of doing resolutions,

she made us do things we were going to do that year. And I think that the nature of resolutions is often that they are things that we are going to not do, things we're going to do that year. And I think that the nature of resolutions is often that they are things that we are going to not do, things we're going to deny ourselves, or we're going to try and stop. And there's value in that often as well. But I think that ever since I did that one year, I've wanted to do that every year since to just make a bunch of decisions about great things that I want to do and things I'm going to enjoy in the next year. And honestly, that's what Virginia Woolf's reads like as well is I'm not going to deny myself,

but I'm going to try and finish my book and I'm going to go out when I want and stay home when I want. And I'm going to try and buy some nice clothes and I'm going to, you know, spend time well and doing things that I love. That sounds like great advice, taking the pressure off. And so just tell me, I think, what are you going to do tomorrow? I think your restrictions are

slightly less than many of us. Yeah, I'm in tier two at the moment. We'll be in tier three from Boxing Day. But so our plan had been to sort of spend the five days of Christmas together as a small family of five. But we'll be having lunch tomorrow with all of the doors open. And that will be our Christmas plan. And tonight I will be eating young sons. Fantastic. Well, enjoy. And thank you very much indeed, Kate Young. Thank you so much. Now, we're all familiar with the idealised Christmas scene of rosy-faced families roasting chestnuts by an open fire,

with stockings hung up on the bedposts with care? I could go on, but I will spare you. Anyway, of course, the reality for many of us is very different. Which is why Holly McNish wrote her poem, You Do Not Need a Chimney. And Holly joins me now, along with Sue Whit Whitfield who's had help from the HomeStart charity that will benefit from sales of the poem. Holly, Sue, welcome both of you. Holly, this poem, hi, this poem was inspired by your daughter so what was it that she was concerned about? She was just, I guess like a lot of other kids, she'd watched a lot of Christmas movies where Santa seems to only get into houses that have a huge, huge fireplace.

The idealised one that you're talking about was a 2.4 kids family. about the fact that she could still get the wee present from Santa, even though we didn't have a fireplace, and from other kids' stories that I read in all sorts of different houses and hostels all over the country. Christmas images are, I mean, I suppose by their very nature, they're kind of old-fashioned and idealised. I mean, I'm not quite sure if life was ever like that, if it was ever quite as cookie cutter perfect as any kind of imagined past exactly. But so did you think it was important to

give your daughter maybe a more realistic, if still lovely alternative? Yeah, I did. And I think Christmas is it's always got that kind of image. It's changing now a wee bit. But it's also quite whitewashed as well which is why I wanted the poem illustrated especially by um Brian Edicu illustrated it and just because I think Christmas I I love Christmas and I love Santa I love Santa Claus I'm quite obsessed with it all um but I think there's so much pressure obviously on parents and carers and people trying to set up this perfect Christmas for their children and I think there's so much pressure, obviously, on parents and carers and people trying to set up this perfect Christmas for their children.

And I think watching some of the Christmas films, I felt like everything was lovely and I'd done it really well and then that just ruined it. So I wanted to do a poem that would not give that pressure and that just basically furthered the story of Santa and let children know that it's all right wherever they are. Holly, would you like to read your poem for us? Yeah, I'd love to. So yeah, this is called You Do Not Need a Chimney for Santa Claus to Come.

You do not need a chimney for Santa Claus to come. You do not need a fireplace to hang your stocking from. That stuff is just from telly. Do not believe the films. You do not need a great big house for Santa to get in. He's got a sleigh, for goodness sake, and loads of elves at hand. Mrs. Claus behind the scenes computing all the plans. Flying, glowing reindeer, galloping the Christmas air. Of course he can manage a few

quick flights of stairs, the top flat of a tower block, the barge on a canal, a spare room in a friend's house, a hostel, a hotel. So snuggle into sleep now and don't listen to anyone who says you need a chimney for Santa Claus to come. Holly, that's lovely. And I think particularly this year, it is really well worth pointing out that if you're listening and your plans changed at the last minute, if you'd written to Santa, for example, and said that you would be at your granny's house or somewhere else and your plans have changed, I think we'll all agree that Santa Claus is very good at knowing exactly where you are, even if you're somewhere that you weren't expecting to be. I do.

Sue, can I come to you? The poem is being sold as a colouring sheet to raise money for Home Start. And it's a charity that I know about a bit and it does some amazing work. I know that they've helped you. When did you start to work with them? Hi. they've helped you. When did you start to work with them? Hi, so I started having a volunteer when my little boy was six months old and he's now seven. Wow, so has it been the same volunteer the whole time? No, so we had our first volunteer when my little boy and then we had our second volunteer when my little girl was born and she's now just started school. So our

volunteer has supported us from when she was about four months old up until this September when she started school. So the same volunteer for five years. Tell me a little bit about the kind of practical help that they offer. So my volunteer came in and was my arms and legs. I use a wheelchair full time. And the unique support that Jane gave was absolutely incredible. She would help us climb trees and romp through rivers and would do baking. She also enabled me to have, you know have some time to myself if I needed it with the children bouncing off the walls some days. So really a unique support that they offer. And that was tailored to myself and my needs for my family. And you were in a situation where you didn't have a lot of family support around you.

Yeah, indeed. So my family support was in Norfolk and we're just outside of Sheffield. So she became an amazing family member that would regularly, you know, we had a regular day and she would always be there. And it took the pressure off asking for that support, you know, asking a friend regularly to help you. For me personally, it was not a position I felt I was in. But having a volunteer who was always coming on a Thursday, you know, she wanted to be there. And it was kind of more than a family helping out.

It was a consistent, fantastic support that you could really rely on. Yeah, and you knew it was happening, you knew it was coming, so you could plan for it. Exactly. And I didn't feel personally indebted to, you know, you ask a favour, and especially this year I asked lots of favours from friends, but always felt like I could never return the favour. You know, my Home Start volunteer was, you know, she'd signed up amazingly, volunteering her own personal time to help us.

But like you say, it was every Thursday without fail. Sue, it's been a tough year for lots of people. And I know that you've had to think quite carefully as you approach Christmas tell us about that yeah indeed so I'm currently still receiving treatment for leukaemia so I'm on the clinically extremely vulnerable list and have actually been shielding since the beginning of March so Christmas this year has processed very differently and as you were talking earlier lots of online shopping has been done from this household and you know there have been lots of sacrifices not just for my children but for a whole wider family and Homestart have been amazing

they were still with us and Jane would virtually bake with my children throughout lockdown, which was just such an incredible support. And having some consistent input was still absolutely out of this world and just gave us something to look forward to on weeks on end of kind of being cooped up. Absolutely. What are your plans for tomorrow, Sue? So we're on a quiet one, as I'm sure you would expect. So although we're in tier three, we are doing quiet, homemade.

And I have already had a chat with my five-year-old about how Santa is going to visit. Holly, your poem came in really handy. And yep, they're very set with their hand sanitiser just in case. And we've reassured him that, you know, the magic protects him. So a quiet but safe Christmas for us. Fantastic, Sue. Thank you for that.

Holly, it is worth pointing out that very often for children, they probably don't mind as much about last minute changes, perhaps as adults do. And actually an impromptu Christmas can be quite a lot of fun. Yeah, I think so. I think children are fairly easily pleased. And I think we definitely put too much pressure on ourselves. I think I've realised that my daughter's 10 and I used to, I think I used to drive it too hard at Christmas time, so I've still stopped doing that. She's quite happy with a few presents and a wee bit of love and some rubbishy food.

And Holly, what are your plans for tomorrow? So tomorrow I will be with my partner on Christmas and we're going to have a very quiet one and eat lots and watch films. And then I'll be with my daughter on Boxing Day and we will get a Chinese takeaway. That's our family tradition on Boxing Day in Scotland. So I'm going to carry that on now. We can't get up there.

That sounds like a good tradition. Sue and Holly, thank you very much indeed for sharing your stories with us. And Holly, thank you very much for reading the poem as well. No worries. Well, we've had a lot of emails, as you might have expected, about the buy now, pay later services online. For example, Julie Sharp says that these options are all part of the debt trap and having control over your finances is incredibly empowering. Quite a few in that vein, although Elizabeth has emailed to say that Klarna gives a way

of only spending the money that you want and not having to wait weeks for a refund. It's something that I think we're going to be coming back to. Now, tomorrow, you can join Jane for a Christmas Day programme about joy. Her guests are going to include the Reverend Kate Botley, Natalie Maddox, the founder and creative director of the House Gospel Choir, who describes the joy of communal singing and breast surgeon and

cancer survivor Liz O'Riordan, who tells the story behind her jar of joy. And there's also Woman's Hour listener Joy Bernard who tells her story of being adopted in Christmas 1961. Whatever you're doing tomorrow, have a lovely Christmas. Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast

for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's OK to be against it, but not to, you know, shame someone because of their profession.

Across the series, we'll hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh. Another thing that really gets to me is when people say, I know what we need to do, I know what black people... Shut up! You don't, like, that's the thing, that's not how it works. Nobody knows, if you knew you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.