Woman's Hour - Trial of Harvey Weinstein, How Does Fat Feel, Mindfulness for Parents

Episode Date: January 7, 2020

Harvey Weinstein’s rape trial begins in New York today – two years after the first allegations against him were made public. .The Hollywood film producer who’s 67- faces five charges of rape and sexual assault involving two women. He’s pleaded not guilty. Dozens of other women have made allegations of sexual abuse and harassment against Weinstein since the publication of revelations in the New York Times in October 2017. He denies any non-consensual sex. Amanda Taub is a writer for the New York Times.In May 2018 we put out a call to our listeners, asking How Does Fat Feel? Ena Miller interviewed three of the dozens of listeners who got in touch. A woman we are calling Jules described herself as fat and said that as she got bigger her life got smaller. Her low self esteem was having an impact on her marriage and her general health was poor. Today 'Jules' joins Jane to listen again to that interview and to talk about how she feels now.Practising mindfulness can calm parents and children alike, according to Issy Judd who has written a book Mindfulness for Mums. She tells Jane about simple activities to relieve chaotic family stress, along with Sian Warriner, Consultant midwife at Oxford University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust who runs mindfulness courses for expectant parents.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Amanda Taub Interviewed guest: Sian Warriner Interviewed guest: Issy Judd Reporter: Ena Miller Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning. If you haven't caught up with the programme recently, then a very happy new year, at least from me. It's not too late to say that, is it? Today on the programme, mindfulness and parenthood. If you know about mindfulness, you might be using it right now

to cope with the challenges of parenthood. If you are, you can let us know about it on social media at BBC Women's Hour. That's Twitter and Instagram. And back in 2018, three listeners told us how they felt about being fat. This week, we hear from them again. Things have changed. Their thoughts are rather different. And you'll hear from our first listener. We called her

Jules and she'll be on the programme live this morning. She's with me right now. First, we go to America and Harvey Weinstein's rape trial begins in New York today, two years after the first allegations against him were made public. He's a Hollywood film producer, of course. He's 67 and he faces five charges of rape and sexual assault involving two women. He is pleading not guilty. Dozens of other women, including Gwyneth Paltrow and Angelina Jolie, have made allegations of sexual misconduct and harassment against him since the publication of Revelations in The New York Times in the October of 2017. He denies any non-consensual sexual activity. Amanda Taub is a writer for the New York Times. Amanda, this seems to have taken a very, very long time,

but here we are. The trial starts today. Yes, I think depending on how you're counting, it's taken a couple of years or a couple of decades. But the trial begins today. They're starting jury selection in New York in a few hours. Jury selection could go on for quite some time, we should say. It's expected to go on for a couple of weeks. They have put out a call for, they've sent summonses to about a thousand people and are expecting 500 to show up and then be winnowed down from there. So you need people to sit on this jury who have no, who are prepared to put aside, shall we say, any knowledge or preconceptions about I think it always seems like it's going to be particularly difficult in a high profile case like this one. But this is actually what we asked jurors to do in every criminal trial. You know, they everyone has preconceptions about murderers and drug dealers

and any sort of crime that goes on trial. But I think sexual assault is always particularly difficult because it's something that has touched so many people's lives in one way or another. Well, let's talk about this trial and the charges he faces specifically right now. What are they? So he is accused of sexually assaulting two women. He obviously many more women have made accusations against him. But in terms of these criminal trial charges, they only involve two accusers. One woman is a former production assistant who is alleging forcible oral sexual rape. And the other is a woman who

until now has remained anonymous. So the details of her accusations are not yet known. And then there's another charge of sexual predation, which is about having a pattern of sexual abuse and criminal activity. And that could actually carry a particularly high sentence that could lead to a life sentence if he's convicted of that. So that is the worst case scenario for Harvey Weinstein, a life sentence. Yes. He is 67, as I say, and the last time he appeared in court, he was using a walking support of a walking frame. What's happened to him? That's unclear. I think he is, you know, apparently needs assistance while walking.

He has been in the press lately talking about, in his view, the unreasonableness of these charges and that he feels that his, you know, career has been forgotten. And I think it seems that in many ways, he feels that he is now diminished. Yeah, he has made what you could call it, I suppose, a spirited defence of his cinematic legacy. He's made the point that this is you can't argue against this. These are facts that he made films about women, centering women, featuring women. He has, and he did. But it's a little bit unclear what difference he expects that to make to these criminal charges. There isn't any amount of supporting women in the arts that gives you the legal entitlement to do the things that he's accused of. So the significance of the trial today is what exactly? I think the broader significance is that Harvey Weinstein has become a symbol of the difficulty

that institutions, particularly the criminal justice system in the United States, have in holding powerful men to account for their abuses of women. He has been accused many times over the years, including people who have filed criminal complaints against him in this very court. And this is the first time that he's made it to trial. And it has been a very difficult process of even getting to this point. There have been allegations of prosecutorial misconduct, investigatory misconduct. There have been attacks on the credibility of various witnesses. And people have said they're afraid to come forward because they're afraid of what will happen to them when they're exposed to this kind of public attack and public scrutiny. And I think all of that shows how difficult it is for powerful people to be held to account for this kind of abuse, even after all of the publicity,

all of the coverage, all of the evidence that has been introduced into the public sphere. What makes all this so much more confusing is the civil element as well. There have been a financial settlement, something agreed involving other people who've made accusations against him. So there have been a whole series of financial settlements over the years involving Mr. Weinstein. We know this, do we? We do. They've come out in the course of the reporting on him. In many cases, he paid settlements to accusers in exchange for essentially gag orders in which they promised not to speak. Some women have now broken those and gone public

with accusations. Now there's this recent settlement, which has, I believe, not yet been finalized, but in which a group of accusers would share in about $25 million from Mr. Weinstein. And there are some other civil cases that are pending as well. But it's important to note that those are on completely separate tracks. They will not affect this criminal trial and this criminal trial will not affect the outcome

of those civil proceedings. And there are continuing, we understand, police investigations in London and in Los Angeles. That's right. Right. And of course, we should say,

we cannot emphasize enough, he denies all the allegations against him of any non-consensual sexual activity. Amanda, I'm sure we'll come back to you. Thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. Thank you.

That's Amanda Taub, who's a writer for the New York Times. You're listening to Woman's Hour. You may well have heard of the term helicopter parents. Have you heard about a snowplow parent? These are people who apparently attempt to clear the way of anything that might obstruct their child's opportunities and chances in life. By removing every obstacle, these people apparently believe that their child's life will be made much easier.

And glittering success is utterly inevitable. But what does this behaviour do to any child? Snowplough parents are removing the grit of life, apparently, and that can be a real danger. Am I describing you is this you are you blushing ever so gently um my next guest jules is shaking her head so i don't think she's a snowplow parent but could you be accused of being one this is something we're going to discuss on wednesday's edition of woman's hour so if it is you email the program via the

website bbc.co.uk forward slash woman's hour could you be a human snowplow so Jules good morning to you good morning now I know we're in a slightly farcical situation Jules is not your real name but that's what I'm going to call you um back in May of 2018 on this program we ran a series of interviews around the subject of being fat And I should say these conversations were all with listeners who were fat, said they were fat, knew they were fat, owned the term, if you like. Jules, you were 54, I think, when my colleague Enna Miller interviewed you. That's correct. So things have moved on.

And you talked, we're about to hear your interview from a year or so ago. It was quite hard to listen to even for me i don't know what you're going to feel like this i can't remember it can't you okay well you're about to be reminded um you had been an average weight hadn't you yes and then something happened yes i was i started taking steroids because you had an underactive no because i had a chronic disease right okay and the steroids had a and made me hungry, just made me eat Yeah, and you were eating Eating, eating, eating, and then even when the steroids stopped

My appetite had expanded to a degree that was literally, it was like flicking a switch And it was, you know, I was never full Right, well we're going to hear the interview from 2018 now And then we're obviously going to find out what has happened since that conversation. Enna Millett went to see Jules and she actually took a weight suit with her so she could go out for a walk with her so she could just understand a little bit about the physical impact of being overweight. Something that Jules here in that interview from 2018 describes brilliantly. I'm just carrying this large lump of flesh around with me. It's like having an alien attached to my body and I've grown it myself. So if I looked in a mirror now I would see that my face has kind of disappeared because

I've got a lot of chins and that kind of goes into a very thick neck. Once I get up to I think it's called the bingo wing parts, I've got hanging fat underneath my arms. And then there comes to the part that I really don't like. At the top of my rib cage, I appear pregnant. I feel like I'm carrying a sort of seven-month pregnancy. It hangs down, and it hangs down over your pubis. I certainly develop sores underneath it. That's really uncomfortable and you have to obviously be incredibly careful when you're washing and in the shower to make sure everything is dry. Going from a woman who was slimmer, what's that like having to even think and deal with that? It's just part of life of being fat. I am quite careful on how I dress. I wear big pants,

you know, gone are the days of sexy underwear and stuff like that. That's long gone. And I'm sad about that, obviously, because you lose your sexuality as you get, well, I certainly have done. But it's, you know, the overhang, that's the thing that I find really difficult to dress for. How come you've claimed that word fat? What's the difference between being fat and just bigger? Fat is quite a derogatory word. It's thrown at people, you're fat. Bigger makes it sound okay. And probably the people who use the word bigger are probably quite happy in their own skin. I'm not happy to be fat.

To me, I'm fat and I don't like it. I've also lost complete interest in clothes. My clothes need before was things that look nice. To go shopping now, it's functional to cover up how I look. It's interesting that you said that because when I met you at the station, you turned up and you had the shawl that you've got you're wearing now you had that wrapped in front of you and I actually thought she's not fat. I know I've spoken to a very few close friends about this and and they'll say but you're not fat I really am. How does fat make you feel? Probably the number one thing is embarrassment and shame

that I've allowed it to get so far that I didn't deal with it when it started because there's no getting away from it that the only way you get fat is from moving less and eating more. It also makes me feel unwieldy. I can't move my body in the way that I used to move my body. I was a very active person. My husband and I especially love walking in the lakes. I can't do that now. We sail, but I can't sail any longer because I can't move myself around a boat. I can't just jump from one place to the other. I can't step lightly. I've got a very dear friend, has always been fat. She's probably a size 24. She's been bigger than me.

But the way she moves her body is completely different to mine. Whereas I feel I've got this sort of 15-year-old strapped to my front all the time. As I've got fatter, my world has got smaller because I don't want to be out there. I don't want to be on view. I don't want to be looked at. I am ashamed of being fat. When you talk about it and talk about all the things that you're thinking, it feels to me, and tell me if I'm wrong, but being fat sounds mentally exhausting? Being fat is mentally exhausting if you're not happy with it. But I guess more than anything, it's frustrating because as an intelligent human being, I know what I have to do. But for some reason or other, there is something in my brain which won't let me do it.

And in all other aspects of my life, I'm in complete control of it. But for this one, I just can't crack it. Why can't you do that? Because there's some comfort in eating. Food does provide a sense of pleasure, which creates a small degree of happiness. I've got three children. We have a meal in the evening, which is cooked from scratch. I don't ever have anything in the house like biscuits or crisps or any junk food except for stuff that my daughter would have to go to school. So if that's the case that you eat meals from scratch you don't eat junk food then without being rude. How have I got fat? Yeah by moving too little and eating too much. Whilst I eat good food I eat too much of it. My portion size is big and I eat too fast. One thing that you said was being the weight that you are it's like having

a teenager on your back so I thought I'd come for a walk with you and have a weight suit on just to understand what it's like. How big is your weight suit? Well I've been told it's three and a half stones but honestly carrying it here today it feels way heavier. Three and a half stones would be just over half of the excess that I'm carrying on. So will I put it on and then we'll go for that walk? Yeah. That sounds like a good idea. But you've got to do the hard stuff. You've got to put your boots on with it on.

Okay. You've got to do the bending down. Okay. Not just put it on and sail out the door. That's not the way it works. One, two, three, go. Oh, no. Okay, that was interesting how I saw you get up then because you got up like I get up when I decided to get up I had to then think right I'm doing it now very interesting what you just said

about you're doing it now because there's a huge amount of that in the day-to-day life of being overweight the right okay come on one two three go because every single thing is an effort it's horrible fairly short you know that my family who I love dearly there's a lot of eye rolling and like oh come on mum get going you know don't be lazy it is lazy because I don't want to do it but it's not lazy in the sort of conventional sense of I can't be asked I can't be bothered are you laughing at me I am laughing at you struggling to put your shoes on it's actually quite funny to see because the way you're putting your shoes on is the way that I put my shoes on I've got to sit back down to put my other shoe on.

Okay. It's beautiful out here. Thank you. It is. I love it. I live in this absolutely stunning area and I don't walk in it. It's a real shame. Be careful over the cattle grid.

There we go i have a slight advantage because i've had a very recent cortisone injection in one knee three weeks ago this would not have been possible when i'm out with my daughter she'll often say now do you want my arm mummy i'm 54 years old i shouldn't be taking someone's arm do you take her arm yes i do and i don't really want to fall flat on my face i'm not obsessive about jumping on scales though because it's completely depressing most of the time but it's just a number at the end of the day but it's quite an important number isn't it it is an important number yeah it's directly related to my health and um i want that number to be lower you know i'm hurtling towards diabetes i haven't got it at the moment i have sleep apnea i have osteoporosis osteoarthritisritis. I have incontinence.

I have high blood pressure. I've had a TIA, which is a mini stroke. I don't want to die young, but knowing all of that, I still can't lose weight long- term sustainably. You alright? Yeah, I'm... We've just come to the top of the hill. I'm a bit breathless, how are you? I'm alright. You sound like you're trying to catch your breath. At this stage I am looking forward to getting back.

I think you can probably hear my breathing is getting harder, my lower back is screaming at me, but it's not really that easy in the country to suddenly sit down in the middle of a field. I can't go for a walk on my own as I can't get back up again if I fell over and that's not going to happen that would be a limit of shame too far for me take my arm for once I'm the more stable one yeah well we walk head on though yeah yes it's a beautiful day though isn't it it's lovely well that was 2018 Enna and Jules then went back to Jules's house and her husband was there making dinner. They talked separately and then together.

How does being fat affect your relationship with your husband? That's a very difficult one. Now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he loves the bones of me. But he doesn't fancy me. And that's difficult. But I also understand it because I don't fancy me. From an emotional point of view, it's a very difficult thing to cope with. I don't want to take my clothes off in front of anybody else. And certainly not in front of somebody that I used to have a fantastic sex life with. But I don't anymore. And I haven't for a few years.

I can see you're very clearly upset. No, I'm not. I'm not upset. No, I find it a very emotional thing to talk about. And in fact, I never talk about it. And we don't talk about it, although we understand each other with it. He's never going to turn around to me and say,

I don't want to see you, we're not going to have sex. That would never happen. Because you don't do that to people you love. But I don't. I don't even know if he wants to. I doubt it very much. But I don't want to. And I don't want to do it.

Because I don't want to and I don't want to do it because I don't love my body. The thing that you said sticks in my head was that you said you don't know how to have sex with the body you've got. No, I don't want to have sex with the body I've got. You know, to have a good sex life you have to be fairly uninhibited and I'm about as inhibited as can possibly be. And he has a limited tolerance for the woe is me. Oh, I'm fat, it's terrible.

And he's frustrated by it. Do you like cooking? Yeah, love it. I find it relaxing. It takes my mind off things. You can shut out all the stress that's going on and just chuck something simple together. I need a lid for that. My name's Paul and I'm Georgieorge's husband what has her being fat done

to your relationship um okay very close to destroyed it that's an awful thing to say because it's not about her becoming fat it's the repercussion what's the word I'm looking for? The consequences of her becoming the size she has. I find the use of the word fat, it's not an untruth, okay, but just where my head's at. I get defensive, I guess. Why do you get defensive if she's owning it? She's my wife. She wrote into Women's Hour and she said, I'm 54 until 48. I was a size 8 all my life. She says, now I'm a size 22. I'm 5 foot 7 and 17 stones.

She said, my husband is still with me because he loves me, but I'm filled with self-loathing. He doesn't fancy me. OK, I'll be brutally honest. No, the physical attraction isn't there. I love her, yes, I do love her. I have been as supportive as I can right the way down the road. The loss of self-esteem is the frightening thing about it.

It's the fact of not facing reality, which has led to her almost lashing out to a point where there's not a day you go by where there isn't a row and it's not about the weight thing it's about an attitude that's in her head and grasping at straws to try and resolve this issue it's not a size thing it's how she's dealing with this in her head which is what's causing the damage the problem with a problem like this within a relationship, for me, the writing is on the wall.

It doesn't always help to have it read out to you. So whilst I can say it for myself, it is always harder to hear it from somebody you love. It makes me upset even to talk about it. I've never called you fat. No, what to talk about it i've never called you fat no no he hasn't called me fat but it doesn't make it any less true this is the first time we've really talked about it 95 of the time it is literally the elephant in the room we we could handle things better but it doesn't it's such an emotive it is it's too emotive to handle subjects right the best thing for our

relationship would be for me to be happier without a doubt i want my wife back but when i mean by i want my wife back i want my wife back who's got a positive attitude, who is happy, is confident, is comfortable in herself. I am well aware that the lack of self-esteem are the damaging parts for a relationship, without a doubt. Some people would say embrace it, learn to love yourself. Can you learn to embrace it? I don't want to embrace it and i don't want to be a bigger woman the fat and happy maxim is is just not for everyone and it's most definitely not for me but to do anything about it to make yourself feel better you've got to lose weight. Can I finish this on one note? What's that? Okay.

He's quite good at the romantic gestures. He is quite good. Jewel's snorting with derision at herself there. That wasn't me making that noise. So what is that like to listen to that? Because things have changed in your life and your body has changed too, we should say. It's almost unrecognisable. It feels like a completely different person were you because you sound no one is harder on themselves usually

than the individual you certainly sounded incredibly hard on yourself there were you deeply unhappy at the time yes yes very i was it, it kind of pervaded everything that I did. I felt it just affected everything. It definitely affected my self-esteem at every possible level. But you were really, really honest. And I heard stuff there about being fat. And I know it's okay for me to use that term in front of you because you say you were fat uh yeah that i didn't know before i hadn't thought about the incontinence element of it the just the discomfort the effort just to get about is not something i'd really thought about and then the stuff like the the flab and the fact that you have to be careful cleaning under it and all this i should say on twitter people are commending you again for your honesty. What happened after that interview?

Well, during that period, I had already begun to jump through the huge amount of hoops required to go for bariatric surgery with the National Health. National Health will allow bariatric surgery if you have a BMI of 35 or more and a comorbidity such as sleep apnea or severe arthritis or diabetes. And these things are really very common with people who are obese. So people do qualify for it. It's never offered.

No. OK, well, we can get on to that in a moment. We should say that your weight, you said during that interview, your weight was about 17 stone. In fact, it went up to about 19. It went up to 19.2. And so when you went to your GP, presumably, what happened? Well, I've obviously been to my GP a number of times. You know, I'm fat and miserable.

What can I do? I tried various, you know i'm fat and miserable um what can i do i tried um various you know potions and pills you know they've been um zenical i don't know if that's a trade name or a proprietary name it's um it's like a fat binder i've tried that that was really grim and i won't go into details of it but it's really not a pleasant experience it wasn't for you anyway it wasn't for me. And we should say everything you say is your story, your personal view. You're not here to offer advice to anybody.

Not at all. This is about you. Yeah. There are a lot of people out there. I've got a very close friend out there who are clinically obese and they have absolutely no problem with it at all. They're quite happy where they are and they have no intention of changing it. It just wasn't for me. So you were eventually offered a gastric sleeve. Well, as they offered, I asked for, I looked at what the criteria were. I saw that I qualified. I had a BMI at the time of 41 and I was able to get onto a gastric sleeve, a bariatric program at St. Richard's Hospital in Chichester.

And I started the process. How long did it all take? It takes a year. For me, it took a year. So there's a year of preparation where you, some of it may seem really, I't know slightly patronizing you know they teach you what a food label is um you know but that for some people that is needed some people don't actually know what the food labels may mean so I didn't really feel I needed that my issue wasn't really the content of my food intake I've come from a very much a family that cooks we're not we're not very big instant food

eaters um i've always i enjoy cooking um and we um my issue was was quantity and portion size so for me that was what that did so we went through the um the process the one-year process of um various different workshops um group sessions about you know why we ate very valuable sort of pre op support in that respect and then um conversation with a surgeon about the best op for you um bands are not very popular anymore the nh NHS doesn't like to do them. There's been too much problem with them. Well, I'm sure that some people would say they've had a gastric band and it was fine. Some have been fine, but the NHS in general now prefers that the gold standard is the

gastric bypass. I was offered a gastric sleeve because my issue was quantity rather than quality. And the result of your gastric sleeve is my issue was quantity rather than quality. And the result of your gastric sleeve is that your stomach is now tiny. Tiny. It's now about 85 to 90 percent smaller than it was. What was the recovery from that operation like? Two days. You were only in hospital for two days? I was in hospital for two days. And when did you start to feel different, better? You start when you when you come out of hospital you're very much on sort of pure little tiny bits of pureed food

um so um my husband was phenomenal at that point you know he just pureed you know most amazing array of pureed um dishes of about two or three um spoonfuls. So I had a very varied diet, which was great. And that went on for about a month. And then slowly, slowly introduce, you know, a bit of toast or a bit of, you know, scrambled egg. But you weren't hungry? No, no. And you're still not?

No. So how much weight has disappeared? I've lost seven stone two. And do you, well, I don't know, because I didn't see you when you were 19 stone do you feel utterly different it is I'm a I can't there's barely words to say how different I feel I I can just move now I can move I felt like I was almost wearing a suit of armor before and I had to sort of I know manipulate my limbs around to sort of make them do what I wanted to

do carrying all the weight and now I don't even have to think about it. And we should say you are a person with we can't go into details of what you do for a living but it's extremely important and it's challenging and you are now better able to do it would you say? I can now do all the I'd kind of been a bit desk based over the last few years as I'd got bigger and I'm now a full member of our team. And were you judged? Did you feel judged every day of your life for being a fat woman? I judged mostly myself.

I felt judged in some ways by being sidelined. The type of things that I would have been asked to do before I was no longer asked to do because I couldn't do them. And so, of course, people didn't ask me. I didn't want to put myself out there. I have a lot of opportunity within my work for presentation and standing up in front of people. I didn't want to do that um so i kind of you know

everything i didn't want to go out very much into new places certainly didn't want to go places where i'd see people who had known me before i was fat because i could see that look in their eyes because i put on such a huge amount of weight really fast. You can actually, there's no way of taking it away when people look at you and you can just see they're going, God, wow. Your relationship with your husband, I'm sure it was never without challenges, what relationship is,

but he does come across in that interview, and I know he has been extremely supportive. You've said so this morning, but you are now separated. We are. My husband was really worried about the operation he was i'm not surprised no not absolutely he was really concerned he was concerned about my health um over and above everything else i think there's also a to a certain extent um you know don't put yourself through this diet and exercise will do it um i don't think, well, I know that he didn't do anything

like the amount of research that I did into it before I even went down this road. So I knew that what I was doing was right for me. We have separated. We are very much still together. Self-loathing in a relationship causes a lot of damage. But also newfound confidence also makes differences. And it's really the two of us negotiating our pathway down that way.

And hopefully we'll get there. Well, thank you very much for coming on live this morning and just for your honesty which i i know people are finding very very impressive so jules thank you uh best of luck with everything and just to reiterate as jules is very keen to say this is not about her advice or telling people they've got to lose weight or anything like it it's just what she's done because it was right for her that's right isn't it yes absolutely thanks jane thank you very much and take care. And on Wednesday, Melissa, another of the voices you heard back in 2018, will be on the programme talking to Jenny about how she feels now about her body. So thanks to

everybody for taking part in these conversations. Hugely important, I know. Thank you very much. Now, we're going to talk about mindfulness for parents. Izzy Judd is here. She's written a book called Mindfulness for Mums. Izzy will be known to people via Instagram and via your work with a scholar. And yes, because you're married to Harry Judd. But it's good to see you. Welcome to the programme. Thanks for having me. It's lovely to be back. And Sean Warriner is here, consultant midwife at Oxford University Hospital's NHS Foundation Trust. You work at the Oxford Mindfulness Centre, Sian. And it says on your website that your mission is to reduce suffering, promote resilience and realise human potential across the lifespan through mindfulness. So just for anyone who doesn't know a really quick definition, what is mindfulness?

Mindfulness is present moment awareness in its most simple form. We spend a lot of our time in what's described within mindfulness literature as automatic pilot. So we drift off into the past or into the future. And, you know, reflection is a useful thing for us to be doing, but that can easily tip into rumination of what should have happened, what could have happened what could have happened or the if only's and future planning we all need to future plan and think about what

we're going to do but again that can easily tip into overthinking and catastrophizing what may or may not happen so it's that ability to come back to this present moment now and say, well, how are things for me in this moment? Acknowledge that and doing that with a sense of non-judgment and kindness and compassion towards yourself, which can be really difficult for many of us as we were hearing from Jules that the idea of judging yourself, the sort of lack of kindness we can apply to ourselves is really difficult for many people. So Izzy, tell me how you came to mindfulness. Is it something, I know you had anxiety as a child and for, I should say, understandable reasons, your brother had had a terrible accident.

It impacted hugely on you and the rest of the family. Have you always used mindfulness? Mindfulness really came into my life when I read a fascinating book called Calming Your Anxious Mind and anxiety is something I've always had. It's something as a child I knew I had but I didn't know it had a name and any time in my life I've gone through great change or period of feeling out of control and of course becoming a mother there is no greater time than feeling like you are out of control. I stopped practicing mindfulness because a I felt I didn't know when I had the time and b we tend to put our children's needs ahead of our own well-being as a mother and I realized the impact it was having on my anxiety by not practicing and for

me mindfulness for mums is a collection of really simple exercises mums can incorporate into their day and as these little moments build up your overall sense of well-being is improved right your children are nearly four we need to make that yeah and two that's correct how can you find time in a day at home with two small children to practice any of these mindfulness techniques so you can practice mindfulness with your children they can you yes so whether they choose to sit and join in or cause chaos that's up you know that is just whatever the day might bring but for example with Lola um we do breathing exercise together and and kit starting to join in so we lie down

we choose a teddy bear she chooses one for me one for her we place it on our tummies and we breathe in and out we watch the teddy rising and falling and it's just getting her used to connecting herself with her breath because as children we are very naturally mindful and as adults we forget how to be mindful we forget to think about our breath often a whole day has gone by and we haven't even thought about it. And we're so in our heads. And the busyness of life as a mother, the feeling of being overwhelmed,

the emotions you go through from frustration, your patience is being tested. So finding moments in the day, for example, a mindful pause. You're waiting for the kettle to boil and the children want their breakfast in the morning you're standing there ground your feet take a deep breath in for fall just can i stop you yes ground your feet do you mean suddenly making yourself aware of the fact that your feet are touching the floor because we're so in our heads and with all the to-do list is spinning

round we're almost i have moments this is just my experience where I feel like I'm floating that I can't get centered as as as mum I'm juggling my work I'm juggling my family life I'm the busyness of everything to just go right I am here today everything is okay the children are waiting for their breakfast this is my day ahead I'm going to make myself a cup of tea I'm going to just take a moment I'm going to take a deep breath I'm going to just say a positive affirmation no ever all is well and it just but then you hear the radio news and all is not well I'll put it to you that's it but to be to be present to be able to as somebody that has had anxiety when I create stories I catastrophize and especially with children it doubles worrying about what might happen to them oh I do I do get

that don't don't I'm absolutely on that with you um Sian apparently mindfulness can help during labor now I've got I had cesarean so I've never had a I don't know about labor I'll be absolutely honest with you can Can it really? Because I suspect some of our listeners will go not on your nelly. But tell me. I'm sure. And everybody has an individual experience of mindfulness. And we teach the four week course that we teach in Oxford, which is an antenatal mindfulness course. It combines preparation for pregnancy and labor and childbirth into the transition to parenthood.

So we have the skills around what's needed for pregnancy and birth interwoven with mindfulness skills. And we make no assumptions about how women are going to be giving birth. The women who come to that may well be having cesarean sections. In fact, many, many of them do. And we don't know what's going to happen with that labor um so it's a very judgmental a non-judgmental way pain yeah i mean we recognize pain labor is not without pain and you have to be open and honest about that but it's the attitude that we bring to that um that can make a big difference and for many people fear you know fear

of the unknown fear of loss of control fear of something that yeah they don't know what's coming um is a big a big issue for them we have a you know as you were saying it's it's about having that control over your life a lot of the time and then suddenly finding that's being taken away from you so what we begin to do within the four-week course that we run is provide those very simple exercises that as he was talking about around how to ground yourself how to come back to that sense of being centered but being calm knowing that each of these moments is going to pass so So not being in the middle of the labour thinking, oh my goodness, that was a dreadful, dreadful contraction and there's another one about to come

and I don't know what I'm going to do. But coming back to this moment right now and perhaps in between and saying, well, it's okay now. You know, in this moment, I'm all right. I see. So own the gaps between the pain. Absolutely.

And relish them. Yeah, absolutely. That's Sian Warriner, who's a consultant midwife in Oxford. And she also, we should say, works at the Oxford Mindfulness Centre. And our thanks to Izzy Judd as well, who's written this book called Mindfulness for Mums. And there's an extract from her book, actually, which I didn't get the chance to read out. But I'll do it now because I do think this is really helpful if you've just had a baby or just about to I think Izzy rather brilliantly expresses what it's like to be particularly a

first-time mother she says from the day Lola arrived I felt vulnerable in my arms was a baby I knew I loved completely and yet I didn't know her at all. I didn't know how she liked to be held. I was confused about when and how to feed her. I didn't know how to breastfeed. I didn't know how to swaddle, or even if she liked being swaddled. I didn't know how to wash or dress her without her crying, and I'd never changed a nappy. I remember thinking, I was no good at this already,

and it quickly became all about survival and simply getting to the end of the day. I think anyone who's been there will understand exactly how Izzy feels. And the good news is I think it really helps to acknowledge that feeling and it does get easier. Certainly you have to dig in. I think it's fair to say in the early weeks and months, as many people will understand. But my thanks to Izzy for taking part in the programme today. And clearly she really does find that mindfulness helps her and her family. And we've had some emails on this subject of mindfulness as well. This is Susan. I remember practising mindfulness with my son before I'd even heard the term.

Just sitting on the floor with him, the two of us playing with his toys engrossed together in the moment. I remember the pleasure and the quiet concentration, she says. And this from another listener. Don't use my name, she says. Fair enough. Just wanted to share that I've just finished an eight-week mindfulness-based stress reduction course, and I can attest to its life-changing, life-enhancing powers. I've got a three-year-old and a six-year-old and a partner both on the autistic spectrum. Juggling my own anxieties and black dog tendencies, mindfulness has made my body finally feel like a friendly, safe place to be even when life around me feels chaotic and out of control it's almost beyond words the unquantifiable way that mindfulness practice changes the way I

confront life and its challenges as though there is space where there wasn't any before and grey area options and choices that my previously anxious mind couldn't see beforehand. I highly recommend it to anybody in any life situation. Wow, I mean that listener certainly feels that it's had a very positive impact on her. Now, being fat, which is the subject that our listener Jules was on the programme to talk about, a lot of people basically just wanted to say that they heard her and they felt for her and they really recognize a lot of what she had to say. This listener says, I am a fat lady. I had numerous strokes and lots of heavy duty steroids to stop my brain swelling. The result, I'm fat and alive rather than a slender corpse. As exercise is

difficult, I swim when I can and yes, I cook from scratch. I was a trained ballet teacher, so I really miss exercise, but I still prefer being alive than the alternative and I refuse to be made to feel guilty for my weight. Another listener, this is like listening to myself. I haven't bought any clothes for years, just clothes I can get into. It is mentally exhausting. Jules is right. I think about how fat I am almost constantly. Everything is centred around my weight, how I look, how I can't do things because I'm too heavy and how embarrassing I must be for my children. Thank you for such an honest contribution. Another listener says I'm five foot four and I'm a size 20.

I look great. I am more than happy with this. I don't put weight on and sometimes I lose some, but not too much, I hope, or I'll need new clothes. My size isn't important to me as I've got so much to do every day and a lot of responsibility it has never occurred to me that I might not be attractive in fact I feel attractive and my partner partner finds me so as do other people I'm in my 60s and far from invisible which is the other rubbish that women spout I have so many things going on in my life that it would be a long time before I started to worry about whether I was a size 14 or not. There you go. You do get up.

There are plenty of people entirely happy with their lot, fat or not. And you will hear some of those voices later this week on the programme. Email from Ian, who says my mother died on Saturday morning, having been through 35 years of hell as a fat person, suffering all the issues discussed, but without the support of a partner. It has been dreadful for years. Ian, I'm so sorry to hear about that and indeed about the loss of your mum. But thank you for emailing the programme. She does sound, I mean, that just sounds awful, doesn't it? I'm sorry, Ian.

And Annie, very intense and emotional story from Jules this morning. Her self-assessment and her honesty were inspiring, wishing her love and luck for the future. And a listener says on email, I'm listening to Jules sobbing my heart out. It's touched me in places I had buried. My story is that I was an overweight baby, an overweight child, an overweight teenager,

put on amphetamines to lose weight by a GP back in the 60s. As an adult, I yo-yo dieted, losing over four stone repeatedly and then putting it back on again. Four pregnancies, type 2 diabetes, all the medication that goes with that. Finally, the luck to find, accidentally, a GP with an interest in diabetes who put me onto a low carb way of life. I'm off beige carbs now for nearly two years and off medication. I still hate myself and identify as being big and I'm nearly 70 but well done to Jules and my thanks for telling her story and again we wish that listener the very best of luck. But as I say, different experiences coming up later in the week.

Other voices whose bodies haven't necessarily changed, but whose attitudes have. So that's later this week on the programme. Tomorrow, really looking forward to talking to Professor Helen Taylor, who's written a book called Why Women Read Fiction. It's that simple. But as you'll realise, of course, why women read and what they read isn't simple at all. So we'll discuss all that on Woman's Hour tomorrow.

Henry Akeley disappeared from his home on the edge of Rendlesham Forest somewhere around the end of June 2019. They come every night now. The police don't believe me. Please, I just need you to get in touch. What we uncovered is a mystery that has sent us deep into England's past, to an area steeped in witchcraft, the occult, secret government operations, and something that might indeed be altogether otherworldly. This is The Whisperer in Darkness.

Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.