Woman's Hour - Triathlete and screenwriter Lesley Paterson; Zara Aleena's murder & probation service failings; the Woman's Hour Power List 2023

Episode Date: January 28, 2023

Lesley Paterson is a five times world champion triathlete. She’s also a successful screenwriter, who has just been nominated for an Oscar and a BAFTA for Best Adapted Screenplay for the film All Quiet on the Western Front. It’s taken her sixteen years to get the film made. A woman no stranger to endurance, she explains how she used her prize money from her sporting career to help fund the film. An independent review into Zara Aleena's murder found a catalogue of errors by the probation service. We speak to HM Chief Inspector of Probation Justin Russell who conducted the review, along with Zara Aleena's aunt Farah Naz.The Woman's Hour Power List for 2023 is here! Last year was a game-changer for the visibility and perception of women in sport in this country and we want to showcase inspirational women – both on and off the field – who are spearheading and building on this momentum. The chair of judges Jessica Creighton launches the Power List and explains how you can make your suggestion.What is the role of a best friend at a deathbed? We All Want Impossible Things is a new novel by Catherine Newman exploring the topic. She reveals how her personal experience inspired the book. During World War Two, a house in Tynemouth was used as a sanctuary for more than 20 Jewish girls fleeing Nazi persecution. They had come to the UK on the Kindertransport. After a BBC investigation, a blue plaque was unveiled there yesterday, Holocaust Memorial Day, celebrating the house's forgotten past and those that found sanctuary there. Two of the girls who lived in the house were Ruth David and Elfi Jonas. We speak to their daughters, Margaret Finch and Helen Strange, about their mothers and their visit to the house.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Anita Rani. This is where we bring you all the highlights from the past week. Coming up, Leslie Patterson, the Oscar-nominated screenwriter of All Quiet on the Western Front, reveals how a second job helped to fund the film. So I've been a professional triathlete for the last almost 20 years, competing all over the world in off-road triathlon. So, yeah, my husband and I were always wondering where we would get that next paycheck from in order to raise the finances.

But, you know, having said that, I think the durability that I've gained from that sport certainly has transferred to film, that's for sure. And what is the role of a best friend at a deathbed? The author Catherine Newman tells us about her new book exploring this topic. And the Woman's Hour Power List for 2023 has been launched with a focus on women in sport. Stay tuned to find out who will be part of the star-studded judging panel and how you can get involved. But first, last June, just nine days after being released from prison, Jordan McSweeney sexually assaulted and murdered 35-year-old aspiring lawyer Zara Alina as she walked home from a night out in East London.

McSweeney was sentenced in December to life imprisonment with a minimum term of 38 years. Zara's aunt told Woman's Hour the family had been completely destroyed. At the time of the offence, McSweeney, who'd been in and out of prison since he was 16 and had a history of violence, was under the supervision of the probation service. The Justice Secretary Dominic Raab ordered an independent review into the case, and the findings were published on Tuesday. There was a catalogue of errors by the probation service from being wrongly assessed to missed opportunities to recall him earlier to custody. Earlier this week, Nuala was joined by His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Probation,

Justin Russell, who conducted the review along with Zahra Alina's aunt Farah Naz. Nuala began by asking Farah for her reaction to the report. Well, it's an extremely distressing report. It's 35 pages revealing a litany of errors and it reveals that the errors are not necessarily down to lack of resources or overwork, but more down to incompetence. Leaders not putting recommendations from previous reports that have repeated the recommendations, that have repeated the errors. The leaders not putting those into place. Poor management. One instance in the report says that sick staff were off on leave,

not sick leave, off on leave at one point, so public safety was at stake. Well, it clearly was at stake. Not following good practice in release planning, not following timeline protocols and recall procedures, not taking into account history of offences and assessing incorrectly, not taking into account his behaviour and non-compliant throughout his adult and teen life, Poor communication in prison. An officer at one point, a probation officer,

mentions not having the time to read the history, which points to how is data presented. It should be easy to read. There's a list of his offences that shouldn't be difficult, shouldn't take longer than a minute. The report repeatedly points to a lack of professional curiosity. This is not a service that's doing its best with inadequate resources. This is a service that is incompetent

and has the failures by people at the top to ensure a quality service need to be, need to have been pointed out in this report. You know, the thing that gave me pause, and no doubt did you as well, Farah, I'm sure it made for distressing reading, was the chronology of events. That actually goes down through three pages, everything from every crime that had been committed and particularly those fateful days in June,

when the recall did not happen in time, so he was not recalled into custody after missing three supervision appointments, as I understand it. His first custodial sentence, just to give our listeners some background, was at 16. He had 28 previous convictions for 69 separate offences over 17 years. There was burglary, there was assault, there was a history of violence towards ex-partners, also a restraining order for an offence against a woman in 2021. Justin, Farah has outlined some of the issues that we can pick up on them, but how could he have been assessed as medium risk? My inspectors were puzzled by that. In our view, he was very clearly a high risk of serious harm

to the public and to other people he associated with. At the time he was released in June of last year, he'd already served nine prison sentences one of the big issues was that the prison service held a lot of information intelligence on his violent behavior in prison his use of weapons his threats to other prisoners and staff that wasn't communicated to the probation service in the community and wasn't taken account of when they did their risk assessment the other problem was there was very little opportunity to do proper planning when he was released. He was only transferred to the probation service in the community

nine days before he was released, which meant that the probation officer didn't have time to review the risk assessment or to properly prepare for his going back out into the community. And he was released without a known address and all sorts of things should have been sorted out by that. How could he be released without a known address? How can you follow up on a person if you don't know where they are?

It's a very good question. We certainly flagged there was potential to put a GPS tag on him, for example, so that he could have been tracked. That opportunity was missed. It's not unusual, sadly, for people to be released without a known address. 30% of the cases that we inspect across England and Wales are very transient in terms of their accommodation. A significant number are released literally street homeless.

And let's pick up on some of the points that Farrah made because you feel instead it wasn't so much the resources but incompetence, lack of professionalism, if I'm quoting you correctly, Farah. Do you think that's what's at the heart of it? There were certainly errors of individual practice by the probation officers and the line managers involved in this case and we flagged those but there are also broader systemic issues with the probation service. Two-thirds of the cases that we've inspected across England and Wales we rate as unsatisfactory in terms of their assessment of risks of harm of people on probation that's just

not good enough. But when it comes to this issue the recommendations which are laid out here and I can get into some of them specifically but you've been here before Justin you have made recommendations before and it hasn't changed obviously the system considering the crimes that we're looking at today. Why not? Well, it is worrying. I mean, the probation service are investing in recruitment. There's over 2000 trainee probation officers in training at the moment. They are spending more money, but that's not translating into better quality practice on the ground there was a big hit from covid but we feel probation officers need to be reminded of the basics they need to be retrained in how you distinguish between a medium and a high risk case they need systems which automatically flag if there's been a delay in recall back to custody let me talk about recall because with the new recommendations the probation service say they're enhancing the recall process.

This is part of the statement from the prison and probation minister, Damien Hines. The probation service is enhancing the recall process to ensure that all recalls are submitted within 24 hours. What do you think of that time frame? Let me start with you, Farah. Do you think that's appropriate? Well, that's something that I can't comment on.

I think if you have a protocol, you've got to work to it. And the report actually highlights that the protocol wasn't actually worked to. So there are a number of protocols that weren't followed. And that does suggest to me that there are levels of incompetence here. What about that, Justin, the 24 hours? Do you agree with that? I think it depends on how high risk the person is. If someone is high risk, then there should be greater urgency about recalling them. As Farah says, the target is to turn around recalls in 24 hours. What happened in this case is it actually took 48 hours to sign off the recall.

So by the time it had got to the Ministry of Justice headquarters and they'd revoked Jordan McSweeney's licence, that was only 36 hours before Zara was murdered. Had the recall been activated earlier, that would have maximised the opportunities for the police to find and arrest McSweeney and bring him back into custody. Yes, talking about the chronology of events, it makes for very distressing reading when you see all the missed opportunities that there were with this particular case.

But it is the second time in less than a week that there have been reports of serious failings by the probation service. There were failings found at every stage in the case of Damien Bendall, who was deemed suitable to live with his pregnant partner, Terry Harris, and her two children. He murdered them, along with another child in Derbyshire last year. I suppose the question is, I know, Fara, you think not, but to you, Justin, is probation service fit for purpose? I think the way that it assesses, manages and reviews risk of harm

is not fit for purpose, and that is a key function for the probation service. It should be one of its priorities and I'm urging the service to act to put those failures right and make sure that it improves that critical aspect of public protection and the work that it does. And I think with these two cases people will be asking, are there other Jordan Maxwini's or Damien Bendel's out there? Can the probation service be trusted to keep the public safe, in particular women and girls, Farah? Well, I think not. I think it's clear that actually women and girls are not safe if probation is not doing its job. Key is assessment,

as Justin has said a few times now. And if assessment is undertaken incorrectly, then licenses will be incorrect. And then on top of that, if we're not looking at what's happening in prisons, if communication isn't adequate between prisons and probation, if housing isn't adequate, if we give a license to someone and say, here you go, you've got to meet these conditions, and if you don't, actually we'll come and pick you up. But if they don't have a fixed abode, you can't do anything about it. So actually there are people given a license to do what they want on our streets.

So actually we're not safe. What about that, Justin, the safety and also how confident are you that more cases like this are not going to emerge? Well, I think terrible stories like this will hit public confidence in the probation service. There are thousands of high risk offenders that the probation service is supervising at any one time, and they need to get all of those cases right. And at the moment, our inspections are casting serious doubt about that. I just want to read a little more of the statement by the Prisons and Probation Minister Damien Hines. He says this was a despicable crime. I apologise unreservedly to Zara Lina's family for their unacceptable failings in this case. We're taking

immediate steps to address the serious issues raised by Jordan Maxwini and Damien Bendel cases. This includes mandatory training to improve risk assessments, implementing new processes to guarantee the swift recall of offenders, which I mentioned, and we have taken disciplinary action where appropriate. We're also investing £155 million a year into the probation service to recruit the thousands more officers who will deliver tougher supervision, protect the public and ensure these sort of tragedies can never happen again? Well, we need much more than an apology.

And these recommendations have been made before and people have been promised that they're going to be followed. So actually what we need is action and we need accountability. And we need accountability, not just from people on the front line. These are managers. These are leaders that have failed here

because if assessment isn't correct, it means that leaders are making mistakes. What stood in the way of any of your previous recommendations getting implemented, Justin? Some of them have been implemented. I mean, recommendations we made in the Bendall report last week have already been acted on in terms of additional staff to check police records and a mandatory ban on curfew orders being given out unless police checks have been done. There are huge resourcing issues with the probation service. When we inspected London probation last summer, we found over 500 vacancies. Only a quarter of London probation staff felt that their

caseloads were manageable. So you have to fill those vacancies. But as quarter of London probation staff felt that their caseloads were manageable. So you have to fill those vacancies. But as Farrah says, you've also got to deal with individual practice and make sure individual probation officers are doing the right thing. Even though there's lots of recruitment going on, there's over 2000 probation officers being trained, you need to hang on to the more experienced staff as well. Those are the people that are leaving and you need their experience, you need their mentoring for the newly qualified staff that are coming through. But coming back to these instances, nobody has lost their job as we heard there as well. There's only been disciplinary proceedings. Is that appropriate?

Decisions on disciplinary proceedings are for the probation service rather than myself as an inspector to take where action is necessary that has to be taken but my point is that these are broader systemic issues that we're seeing with risk assessment and risk management right across England and Wales that need to be dealt with by the service. Yes I understand the systemic but there are individuals involved as well far off for you that it's only been if they? If they don't have the right tools for assessment, then they're going to misassess. If they don't have the right management and the right leadership, then they're going to make mistakes. So I think this is, I agree that there are systemic issues that need to be looked at. But I do think we have ministers that haven't responded to previous recommendations and they are answerable here. We have people higher up who are answerable. Justice, Secretary of State Justice Dominic Raab and also, of course, Minister for Probation, the Head of Probation Service.

We have asked for each of those to come on this programme, but nobody was available. We are happy to speak to them at any time. Justin, what response have you had from the Justice Secretary Dominic Raab? Well, the government has accepted all 10 of our recommendations. You've seen the statement from Damien Hines. I had an opportunity to talk Damien Hines through our findings, and I hope they take him seriously and act on it. And the proof in the pudding will be when our local probation inspections

are showing significant improvements in assessment and management of risk. So far, we're not seeing much sign of that. You know, I read there, Farah, that Damien Hines as prisons and probation minister apologised unreservedly. What interaction have you had with that service or indeed with the Justice Department? Well, that was the first I'd heard of it was when I read it this morning myself. So we haven't had a personal apology. We've read it in the paper. Would that mean something? That's totally inappropriate, actually, because we've lost a member of our family and a loved member of our family for absolutely nothing.

So it would make a difference to you? Of course it makes a difference, but we need it backed up. And that's, you know, I'm not here to display my emotions. I've done that before. I'm here to campaign. I'm here to speak up and to give a voice for my family and for everybody else, for everybody who would like to see better services and service provision. And that's what you're looking for. And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for change and accountability.

And Farah, because the young woman at the middle of this is our Alina, for people who didn't know her, would you like to tell us a little bit about her? Well, there's so much to say. This is a very difficult time for us. She was the complete antithesis of this man that was given a license to walk the streets freely and a good human being and a community member very active in the local community, known in all her neighbourhoods, loved by all of us dearly, funny, clever, beautiful, and a real lover of life. Thank you so much for sharing your memories as well of your beloved niece. Have you spoken, I know I was talking about Damien Hines there

and the apology, but has the Justice Secretary spoken to you? They have agreed to talk to me. So I'm looking forward to that conversation. That was Farah Naz and HM Chief Inspector of Probation Justin Russell speaking to Nuala. And if you would like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme, or indeed anything you'd like us to discuss on the programme, then feel free to email us. All you need to do is go to our website. Now, something really exciting for you. The Women's Hour Power List 2023 has arrived. This year, it will showcase women in sport following an incredible year with moments such as Team GB's Curlers winning gold in Beijing, our rowing team winning gold at the European Championships and of course England's lionesses lifting the trophy at the Euros to name a few

there have been so many standout moments and we plan to celebrate them in style with your help of course so to hear more about the Powerlist and how you can get involved I caught up with the sports broadcaster, journalist and our Powerlist chair, Jessica Crichton, who I'm sure you will have heard presenting here on Woman's Hour. I began by asking her why this year's Powerlist will celebrate women in sport. The more I thought about this, the more I thought, well, why not? We talk about the Lionesses, as you mentioned there, and that breakthrough moment of them roaring to success at the Euros in the summer,

and what it did in terms of bringing women's football to the mainstream, increasing exposure, perhaps improving perceptions as well of women in sport, not just in football, women's sport throughout the UK. But there's been so many of those pivotal, groundbreaking moments in the past year alone. Who can forget the historic medal haul by the Paralympics athletes at the Paralympic Games.

You mentioned the curlers and the British women in the curling at the Winter Olympics, the strides that have been made in Welsh women's boxing. And let me not forget the Northern Ireland women's football team earning their first ever birth at a major tournament. It's been an incredible year. And so why not shine a spotlight on those women, those sportswomen that have achieved incredible things, but also the many women involved behind the scenes, behind the headlines who we don't always get to hear from. I mentioned a list of

incredible moments there, but there's been so many standout moments in the past year. So let me just remind you. Celebrations for the England team, England's women cricket team, in Christchurch in New Zealand. They have just won their semi-final, which takes us through to the final. Mena Fitzpatrick and her guide Gary Smith did a brilliant slalom to win bronze, their second medal of the Games and the sixth Paralympic medal of men's career.

Tour de France Femme is a real watershed moment for the sport. We believe that this can take women's cycling to the next level. From Ailish McColgan winning the 10,000 metre gold. For me as a mother, not even as a coach, to witness your daughter winning is amazing and to win it in the same event that I won it in. Gold for Wales is Olivia Breen. She finished first in the women's T37 38 100 metre final. England's women have reached the rugby

World Cup final and this is incredibly now 30 victories in a row. Bethany Firth leading the way she's now won goals at all major championships. Eve Muirhead's women's curlers crushing Japan 10-3. The England women's hockey team won gold for the first time at the Commonwealth Games, beating Australia in the final. And history is made by the Lionesses. This is what dreams are made of. As a young girl watching women's football, now this. Wow, it's unbelievable. If this is what we can do of, as a young girl watching women's football. Now this, wow, it's unbelievable.

If this is what we can do on a fraction of a budget, think about what we can do if it gets to the point where it's equal. If girls are not allowed to play football just like the boys can in their PE after this tournament, then what are we doing? You think it's all over? It's only just begun. Jess, spine-tingling stuff. Honestly, I get chills listening to all that again. I love that at the end, Gabby Logan, it's just the beginning.

It's time, isn't it? It's time. It really is. There's been so many moments, though. Everyone will mention the Lionesses, but there's been years upon years of success, and women haven't necessarily got the coverage that they deserve for that success. Which is why Women's Hour are doing this. So how are you going to decide who features on this list? Well, in true Women's Hour fashion, we want some listener input.

We want all of our listeners to get involved and suggest people that they think should be considered to be on this list. Not just sportswomen, but there's other categories as well that I'll go into as well. But we want people and women who have made a difference, not just those achieving success on the sporting field, but those behind the scenes as well. All the suggestions that come in will be whittled down to a final list of 30 by myself because I'm the chair and an expert panel of judges. We've got some incredible judges. Who's on your panel? Oh my goodness, where do we start? So we've got three judges, including myself as a chair. The three judges will be Ebony Rainford-Brent, former cricketer, won a World Cup with England.

Sam Quek, who I'm so excited to be working with, former hockey player who was part of the hockey team that gave me one of my highlights for the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro, winning British women's first ever Olympic hockey gold back in 2016. And you might have seen her as well as the first female captain on A Question of Sport. And Tanni Grey-Thompson to finish off the list. I mean, what an honour to have Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson to work with her. And I was lucky enough to interview her when she was a powerhouse athlete.

And since her retirement, she has really blazed a trail. She went from being one of the most celebrated British Paralympians to becoming a dame in 2005 for her services to sport and then becoming a crossbench peer in the House of Lords. She is someone that has brought about lasting change for women in sport. That's quite a panel and you, as you've mentioned, are the chair. Yeah, you sit right at the top. I know.

So how are you going to handle this? Because you are all women who are quite driven, you you've mentioned, are the chair. Yeah, you sit right at the top. I know. So how are you going to handle this? Because you are all women who are quite driven. You're in sport. So you're all very competitive. Yes. So you're going to really want to fight for your corner, for your names. How are you going to keep the peace? Well, that's a good thing.

Boxing gloves, maybe? I don't know. What do you think? I think so. No, there's going to be some very thorough, rowdy, robust discussions, I think, about this. OK, so we and you want the help of all the listeners. How are you going to help them get thinking? Are there separate categories?

There are. Sportsman is the obvious one. So, you know, listeners, we want your suggestions for sportsmen, those at the top of their game who have achieved something exceptional, something that will make you think about them in years to come. But not just sporting success, perhaps they've used their platform as well to bring about a lasting change for their sport. Another category, leaders. It could be coaches, it could be managers, but what about the politicians, the businesswomen, the board members that lead the way to inspire results? Changemakers. I like this category because this is the disruptors. I've often been called a disruptor in my life. Best way to be.

You might find that hard to believe. The disruptors, the people that challenge the status quo. Do you know someone that's campaigned for equal pay or better maternity rights? Someone that's pushed change in terms of infrastructure to leave a lasting legacy. Amplifiers as well as another category. Those people that elevate women's

sport. It could be broadcasters. I know many myself. What about the media executives though? The women working to negotiate better TV rights so that we see more women's sport on the TV? Or what about sports agents? Those are the people who magnify and boost women's sports in their respective fields. And also, this is what makes this Women's Hour Power List so fantastic, because we have a grassroots category. Brilliant. And that is for the unsung heroes. We hear about sometimes, you know, the sportswomen and a few people behind the scenes that might make the headlines as well. But what about those people

that don't always get the recognition, the unsung heroes that work so hard in their local communities to make real lasting change i think back to when i was a little girl and like many from my age and my era we got that letter from our local council when we were young girls playing in boys football teams to say sorry jess you can't play in this team anymore because you are a girl you need to go and find a girls team and for many people in that situation there was there was no local girls team so they dropped out of the sport i was lucky enough to have a woman called yvonne who set up a girls team would ship us all around from home to training to matches and be that person who volunteered her time, her effort, her resources

to make sure that the local girls in the area had an outlet like that. And that was life-changing for me. Do you know someone like that? Someone at a sports club, at a youth centre, someone that set up a walking group? Grassroots. That's one of the categories that's so important. And the unsung heroes, the people that are really doing the work to ensure that we have a next generation. And, you know, you talking about you being a little girl, I'm just thinking about the impact that this list will have on the next generation of girls and boys. I honestly, that's why I'm so excited. This is so worthwhile. We're putting all our effort into this to celebrate, to uplift, because we know it's not an equal playing field. So if we can do that part to uplift, amplify, elevate,

that's exactly what we should be doing with the people that make the headlines alongside those behind the scenes. Parity. They're all on one list. We're celebrating them all together. That was the wonderful Jess Crichton. And remember, we want, we need your suggestions

whether it's on or off the field at the elite or very importantly, local level Who do you think should feature on the list? For more information, head to the Woman's Hour website and make your suggestion We look forward to hearing from you Now, number 55, Percy Park looks like any other townhouse in Tynemouth

but more than 80 years ago it was used as a sanctuary for more than 20 Jewish girls fleeing Nazi persecution who had come to the UK on the Kindertransport. After a BBC investigation, a blue plaque was unveiled there yesterday, Holocaust Memorial Day, celebrating the house's forgotten past and those who found sanctuary there. The girls were looked after by two women from Vienna, themselves fleeing Nazi persecution. One was the famous cook, Alice Erbach. Alice's granddaughter, Carina Erbach, was on Woman's Hour last May,

talking about her book, The Nazis Stole My Grandmother's Cookbook. Two of the girls who lived in the house were Ruth David and Elfie Jonas. We'll hear some clips of them shortly. They very sadly passed away during lockdown. But I was joined by their daughters, Ruth's daughter Margaret Finch and Elfie's daughter Helen Strange. I started by asking Margaret about her mother's early life. So mum was one of six children who lived in a very happy family, I think, in a part of Germany called the Odenwald, which was like a miniature black forest. And I think it was very happy family, I think, in a part of Germany called the Odenwald, which was like a miniature black forest. And I think it was very happy

until Hitler came to power when she was four years old. And then everything changed all of a sudden. And all the talk as far back as she can remember was of Auswanderung, which is emigration from Germany. But she had siblings she adored. 1935, she went to school, just the little village school, because they'd been integrated there for two centuries. And then in that school,

the teacher wore brown, the children had to jump up and say Heil Hitler when he came in. Mum wanted to do that because she wanted to be like the others, but she wasn't allowed to. And then soon after that, the Jewish children were thrown out of that school. And at that point, they lost all their non-Jewish friends in the village. Things got very dangerous for them. Stones were thrown at them. There was then Kristallnacht, which is now called Pogromnacht, when local communities in Germany ransacked Jewish homes, burned Jewish synagogues, mum's house ransacked, her brother and her father were beaten up and an aunt, and the brother and father arrested, and mum cowered in a car in the yard, and remembered that all her life. But then she came here on the Kindertransport. That's what pushed the parents

who'd been trying to emigrate as a family to decide they had to get the children out if they could. We've actually got a clip of your mother talking to the Listening Project in 2013. This is Ruth David describing preparing for the Kindertransport. I can remember that mother said no books because that would be too heavy and I wanted to bring books with me, knowing I could never learn English or read English. I was convinced of that for a long time. And she packed too much underwear, I thought. I didn't appreciate what was going on at all.

I had a small suitcase and a larger one. The kinder, the children who were chosen, were those in need. It was hit and miss. Some got out, some didn't, some survived and some didn't. Many didn't. And the kinder transport saved nearly 10,000 children. And when you compare that with the one and a half million European Jewish children who were murdered,

we were very fortunate. Incredibly moving to hear your mother's voice. I've never heard that bit before. Have you not? The detail of the underwear. Yes, that's right. And I also know that shortly, the night before mum left, and they gave her less than a week's notice she was leaving,

and she was very angry because her older sister wasn't leaving and she didn't know why she should be going first. Her mother came to her and mum was expecting words of comfort, how they would come and get her as soon as they could. And her mother just talked about blood dripping and mum didn't know what she was talking about. This kind of ties in with the underwear because years later she realised she was being told about menstruation. She was only 10.

And she was giving her the advice before she left. Yes. Helen, I want to bring you in to talk about your mum, Elfie Jonas. She came from Austria. Yes. Tell us a bit about her story. Yeah, she was born in a small place called Leoben in the mountains. Again, a very happy childhood, an only child.

Very, very happy memories of that area. And then she, her parents after the... Sorry. She was put on the Kindertransport. She was put on the list for the Kindertransport and was then, had no idea where she was going. Her parents were very young and didn't know which, even which country she was coming to so she arrived late at night in the liverpool street station and then taken by two strangers who didn't speak any austrian or german on the train to newcastle where she arrived at night they played games with her on the train but they couldn't speak

with each other but she said they were very nice to her arrived late at night. They played games with her on the train, but they couldn't speak with each other. But she said they were very nice to her. Arrived late at night in the dark and told to go to bed and arrived in a room full of, I think, three other girls and just sort of went to bed in this sort of haze of what on earth is going on here. I think we should hear from your mum as well. We have a clip. This is Elfie recorded by Vivian Sieber in 2019, granddaughter of Paul Sieber, who was one of the matrons in the home.

And this was recorded in 2019. Let's have a listen. I came in March and the war started in September. I remember clearly war being declared. And in Tynemouthouth in front of the hostel was a huge field and we used to walk across the field to school and I remember Mr. Chamberlain wasn't it who declared war and I was thinking war you know what does it mean? Are they going to fight on the field with bows and arrows? I had no idea what war meant, you know.

It's very moving to hear that clip. What was it like? What did they tell you, both of you, Margaret and Helen, about their time in Tynemouth? Because after Tynemouth, did they both move to Windermere as well? Yes, they did. So they were in very beautiful parts of the world they were yeah but what do they tell you loved the view from the window in Tynemouth because you looked out to the sea and they went across before war was declared they were allowed to go across the road to the beach and

play on the beach and swim in the sea although she said it was very cold. What age were you when they actually started telling you about the history? Well, when I was little, I don't think I knew the word Jew. I knew mum was German because she said nursery rhymes in German to me. She counted German when she was knitting. And I knew she had siblings in France she spoke French to and in New York she spoke English too. That was very confusing because she was German. But then New York she spoke English too that was very confusing because she was German but then I think she'd repressed it for so long when I was nine so

I was coming up to the age at which she had been put on the kindertransport one night when she was putting me to bed she was in tears and I asked her what the matter was and she suddenly told me that her parents had been killed by being shoved in an oven. And I had no context for that. And then after that, I began to be more aware. But I realised then that I needed to protect her. Of course. Yeah, I felt the protection for my mother very strongly too. I assumed that it was a sort of normal family. My mum started to tell me things when I was about nine too.

And I think it was because she was trying to imagine what her parents had been through putting a 10-year-old on a train. So when I was sort of coming up to 10, she started to explain to me about what her parents had done and then very gently, sort of not as horrifically as you'd experienced, but very gently started to tell me about her family and her life and what they'd been through. And did they ever go back to Germany or Austria? Did they go and visit? Yeah, my dad took my mum back, not us, my brother and myself, but when I was about 12, he thought it was good that she would revisit, but she eventually that sparked memories she wrote a book about her experiences

which was published in Germany in 1996 and in English in 2003 and she worked for 20 years talking in schools in Germany. Amazing and how important is it that this plaque is being put on this house because the owners of the house didn't even realize what it was used for. Yeah I think it's really important I'm so pleased I think Mum would have been really pleased too because we went up and visited the house many times and my mum told me all about the house and showed me the house, but there was nothing there at all.

So, you know, everybody, nobody would know except my mum and your mum. And I think it's so brilliant that BBC Radio Newcastle have picked up the story. And are making it known because it mustn't be forgotten. It's a really important part of local history. Country's history. Yeah. Everybody needs to know.

Exactly. It mustn't be forgotten. I think that's the key point, really. And I guess, I mean, it's a huge conversation about how you carry that trauma within yourselves and process it at the two of you. It must be important for the two of you to be able to talk about their stories now.

It is. For us to talk to one another and finally go out for lunch and keep up the conversation. Absolutely. There's so much to be told. It's important. It's very fortunate that we do have each other. Margaret Finch and Helen Strange

and BBC Newcastle's audio series The Girls, The Holocaust Safehouse, is on BBC Sounds now. Still to come on the programme, the Oscar and BAFTA-nominated screenwriter Leslie Patterson shares how her Hollywood career was funded by winning triathlons. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any day of the week. If you can't join us live at 10am,

just subscribe to the podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, if I tell you that the book we're going to talk about is about a woman dying of cancer and is narrated by her best friend, you'll almost certainly get completely the wrong idea. We All Want Impossible Things by Katherine Newman is a funny book. It features a lot of sex

and it's also very, very sad. It's a celebration of all sorts of love and follows the friendship between Ash and Edie as Edie is moved to palliative care. Katherine Newman joined Nuala earlier this week and she began by asking her if the story was inspired by her own experience. It was, yes. I had a friend like that, and she died about eight years ago. And we spent a lot of time in hospice, doing many of the things we'd always done, lying in her bed together, reading magazines and talking and laughing and crying

and ultimately parting company. And letting her go. I'm so sorry for your loss because I can only imagine from reading the book if that was inspired by it that it must have been an immense loss. An immense, an immense loss. Yes. And I will say, not that anyone needs this advice from me,

but it does remind you to love nobody tepidly. That it just all in all the time. That's how I feel. It's how I felt already. But since then, all in all the time, my friends have to endure me saying at every parting, even if I'm just leaving a pub, I say, I love you guys so much. They say we love you too. I mean, just there's no time to be tentative or tepid, just extravagance. That's the motto. And I suppose it also, you realise your own mortality and the mortality of those around you, which it's very easy to ignore, actually, when you're of a certain

young age. Yes, very easy to ignore and then impossible to forget. So just to outline the story for our listeners, that they, the friend, of course, is very ill. And instead, they decide to move Edie, the friend, to a hospice near Ash's home in Massachusetts and that she says goodbye to her son and husband and is going to spend those final weeks, months, with Ash instead of her immediate family. But I was questioning, would anybody actually do that?

That's a good question. Of all of the fictional things in the novel, and there are some, there are also a lot of real things, but her husband, the husband of my actual friend in real life, has made so much fun of me for the fundamental fictional conceit of me moving Edie to be right where I was. Well, you're right in the book, you can say what you want. It's at the best. I've never, I didn't even realize I was doing it. I did it in the book because it made telling the story easier. Everyone was in the same place. But oh my gosh, now that I see it, that I just as a total narcissistic rewriting of history, that I am at

the center of her dying. And that is fictional, but so real to me. It takes place in the hospice, as we mentioned. And I think the hospice is really the backdrop to the friendship, which I'll keep coming back to because, you know, friends see things in a certain way, whether it's that little dog called Farrah Fawcett that keeps eating cheese or whether it's the Lady Ruth next door who watches Fiddler on the Roof every day. Talk me through your experience of friendship in that hospice and, you know, whether it comes through in the book or your actual real life one. So that hospice is kind of a mix of the hospice where my friend really died and also I volunteer in a hospice. I make dinner every Monday in a hospice. And hospice is a magic place because the urgency is behind you. The urgency of hospital is behind you and it is the only thing it reminds me of is that time in a hospital with a newborn

where the world is careening on without you outside and you are in a bubble doing a magic life moment that everybody goes through, but when you're in it, it's completely unique to you. I'm seeing people are getting in touch. I just want to read some of their comments out. Emma, my role when my best friend died consisted of supporting writing her will, taking her away for her last ever

look at the true sea of the North Norfolk Coast, culminating in acting as a celebrant, delivering her whole funeral, something I'd never done before, managing the service and seeing out her coffin. She died before reaching 50 following breast cancer and a subsequent brain tumour. But do you think

that friends get the recognition that they deserve at life milestones, whether it's the beginning or end of life? No. You're asking a total narcissist. I complained at her funeral because when they unveiled her gravestone, it said, you know, wife, mother, sister, daughter. And I was like, what?

And everyone teased me that I was going to come out with a marker and write friend. But that said, I felt it from her, certainly. Yeah. Okay. I think some more coming in. I volunteered at a hospice and with my husband, run a walking group for those who have been bereaved. It has taught me so much about life and death, Sarah, from Suffolk.

Also, Helen saying lucky enough to stay with her husband in Wilfred's Hospice in Chichester for the last 10 days of his life, age 62. The hospital, hospital, or hospice, excuse me, is precious family time, complete with many friends, so much laughter, a fair number of G&Ts for a very sad time. It was also incredibly comforting, peaceful, and happy time. Do you think people know enough about what happens inside those walls? I'm wondering, because even as you're reading these listener comments, I'm thinking there's so much magic and you don't really know. And I don't mean to downplay the pain of it, but it really is a magical time because the effort is in the past. And so the gin and tonics, I can't tell you how many people I've walked outside to have their last cigarette. You know, it's sort of all bets are

off with hospice. And it's quite precious. Food is a big part. Yes. Also, particularly looking for this polenta Sicilian lemon polenta cake, which you find. Why does it have such a central role? I think the appetites. I think there's something about the appetites that I was trying to think through in the book, both, you know, Ash having sex and eating. There's a lot of, I think about it in hospice every week when I'm there feeding people,

that until you are fully done with it, the body is doing its body thing. You do go into the specifics of, I suppose, the difficulties of a body dying, you know, whether it's been, you know, administering medicine or difficulty of bodily fluids, to put it very frankly, towards the end. And did you worry that you might turn readers off? I think I worry that there's not enough talk of the mess of it. It's such a mess, or it can be. I mean, I think some people die very tidily, I've seen, but it's often so chaotic and it's such a mess. And I think you can feel completely unprepared for that. And so I thought, just as a little side note from that entertainment, that that might be a service just to expect it.

You know, it was. My father died about 10 days ago. I know, but I read your book before, just as he was beginning to go down. And I can't tell you how many times it came into my mind while I was caring for him. Even the lip balm. Yes, the lip balm. Right? These small things, which, you know, I think it is important to talk about death and dying. And I think the book does a great service for that. Thank you. What advice would you give to anyone listening who has a friend who is dying what have you right after you said friend i was going to say don't let them die but a friend who is dying um i mean again i go back to the extravagance now is not the time for boundaries that's what i would say you know we're trained so much these days to think about, you know, boundaries.

And I feel like just unbounded, all in, all in, all hands on deck. That's how I felt that it's at anything. Nobody is on their deathbed wishing they'd loved less extravagantly. So that is my advice. What a lovely way to end that interview love more extravagantly that was the author Catherine Newman. Now Leslie Patterson is a five times world champion triathlete

she's also a successful writer who's just been nominated for an Oscar and a BAFTA for best adapted screenplay for the World War I film All Quiet on the Western Front yes I too am questioning what I've been doing with my life. It's taken her 16 years to get the film made. A woman no stranger

to endurance, she used her prize money from her sporting career to help fund the film. And now it's one of this year's biggest contenders at the Oscars and BAFTAs. Well, I spoke to her earlier this week down the line from LA and asked her how she's been celebrating all those nominations. Oh, it's just, it's absolutely bananas. I don't think it's sunk in yet, that's for sure. Not in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen. I mean, you always, I guess you will it into existence. You know, I've imagined it for a long time, but you're never quite sure that it's gonna come to fruition I think we need to go right back to sort of explain to the audience the story behind this by the way the film is incredible it's so moving it's so powerful it's so harrowing

I know everybody's reviewed it and everyone has said amazing things and the nominations for all the awards speak for themselves but let's talk about your journey, because take me back 16 years ago and you acquiring the rights to the book. Yeah, so it was a really curious journey. My partner at the time, Ian Stokehell, my writing partner, we both were reading the book in a local bookstore. They were doing a promotion. And of course, it's such a gorgeous classic and we thought wow nobody's remade this in so long and certainly not kind of in modern cinema I wonder who has the option to the rights and you know normally the big studios have them normally big producers have them so um we we went to looking and lo and behold, they were available, which was in itself totally shocking.

And then we pleaded with them, gave them a pitch and they said yes. And that was that. Off we went on a journey to adapt the novel and, you know, try and get the thing off the ground. Why were you so keen to adapt it for a modern audience? what did you want to do that was different? I think, you know, there's a couple of things. One is that it's such a powerful and timely message of betrayal of the youthful generation. And I think that, you know, that is always a timely message and it continues to be, unfortunately. But secondly, because it's told from the other side, the German side, that's very unique. It's not often that we hear from quote unquote our enemies. So once we started to dig into some of the historical context around World War I and how that led to World War II, yeah, we were just enamoured with the whole

story. It's incredibly poignant. You sort of sit up and pay attention as soon as you realise that we're getting a different perspective here. But in the run up to it being made, you had to retain the rights to this book. And in order to do that, you had to pay, was it £10,000 a year? Yeah, close to, sometimes more. Sometimes more. Okay. So you had a very unique way of raising the funds to do this. Let's talk about your parallel life as an elite athlete. You compete in triathlons, don't you? That's how you raise money. It is indeed.

So I've been a professional triathlete for the last almost 20 years, competing all over the world in off-road triathlon. So, yeah, my husband, Simon Marshall, and I were always wondering where we would get that next paycheck from in order to raise the finances. So, but, you know, having said that, I think the durability that I've gained from that sport certainly has transferred to film, that's for sure. Tell me about the story of you going to Costa Rica.

This I could not believe this says a lot about you as a person and your tenacity and endurance. Yeah and stupidity I think most folks would say yeah so when I go out to these races of course we have to spend our own money to get out there so getting on the podium is a big thing to try and earn your money back and then also earn your living or earn your money to get the option for the book and so the day before the race certainly when it's an off-road triathlon we do what's called pre-riding the course where we check terrain all the descents things like that and I actually broke my shoulder so I fell off the bike broke my shoulder not that I knew at the time I just knew I could not lift it and it was very

painful and I had a little uh chitty chat with my hubby and said what are we going to do and he said okay well can you can you can you ride your bike I propped my hand up and I thought I think I can I could probably walk the descents okay okay I can do that right can you run well of course I can run you only need one arm to run and we went down to the ocean's edge and he said well can you swim I said not a hope in hell I can't get my other arm over so he said well you're really good at the one one arm drill so why don't you give that a bash and I thought well you know what's what's to lose here so I got in the water on race morning and I swam a mile with one arm and came out the water about 12 to 15 minutes down and got on the bike and rode up to fourth and carried my bike all down the technical descents

because I couldn't hold on to the bars properly. And then, of course, I ran my way up into first. So, yeah. You just heard, ladies and gentlemen, Leslie won. She won with one arm. Can you please, I am so fascinated to tap into your mind to understand how you do that what is it in you i think it's probably the same i suspect it's the same thing that made you persist for 16 years to get this film over the line what is that chip that you've got that means that you can continue and persist and just keep going?

Yeah, you know, my husband calls it the fire in the belly. I've just always been like that, you know. I mean, I used to pretend I was Zola Budd running around, you know, the square in bare feet, you know, the famous South African runner when I was four years old. I mean, you can't buy that. You can't manufacture that. It just is. Where do you think it comes from? I'd like to say it's that Scottish underdog Calvinistic love of suffering. You know, it's like before I get my bar of chocolate, you know, I have to run up a mountain, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I'm not sure it's always a good thing

and it definitely gets me into trouble. But you've lived in LA for 20-odd years now. Has it not softened? It's still in you. Well, you know what? It's still in me. But, you know, the accent's still in me, thank goodness. Oh, yeah, never lose that. No, I am a bit of a softie. I do like the sunshine and the warmth now,

so I have a lot of big puffer jackets. But, you know, I mean, who doesn't? The brilliant Lesley Patterson there. What a story. Best of luck to her at the Oscars and the BAFTAs. Now, it's 20 years since the repeal of Section 28, a law that was first introduced in 1988 to prevent what was then termed as the promotion of homosexuality in UK schools. Catherine Lee is a lesbian and taught in schools for every year of Section 28. She'll join Nuala on Monday to talk about how this law affected her and thousands of other teachers during the period. So do join us then. That's all from me. Have a great weekend and remember to love extravagantly.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.