Woman's Hour - Troopers, Billionaires, Postnatal Support

Episode Date: May 26, 2020

TROOPERS is a new series of ours starting today. It's about the women in our communities who get things done, and many of them are volunteers. We begin with Margaret Johnson who works as a volunteer at Chester Storyhouse which is a cinema, theatre and library. She runs the Chatter and Natter group.We've got more on the Dominic Cummings situation and his trip to Durham. Katy Balls from the Spectator and Helen Lewis from the Atlantic discuss things said in last night's press conference which might have leapt out for women especially.Following on from yesterday's programme about having a baby during lockdown, today we talk about what postnatal support is there for you. We hear from Linzy Thurlaway who's a midwife, antenatal educator and also runs postnatal and baby massage courses. She founded a Facebook group called Antenatal and Postnatal Education and Support North East. The Sunday Times Rich List 2020 includes a record number of women but it's still only 150 out of 1000 people. The number from BAME backgrounds is even lower. We speak to Annabelle Williams, the author of Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Tuesday, the 26th of May, 2020. Hi, good morning to you. Today, who wants to be a billionaire? Why are there still so few women on the Sunday Times rich list? And actually, does it matter? Also today, more on postnatal support,

particularly of interest, I guess, if you heard and enjoyed our programme yesterday on pregnancy and birth and life with a newborn during lockdown. Today, you can talk, you can hear from Lindsay Thurloway. She's in the northeast of England and she runs a group to help women in those months after the birth of a child. So Lindsay is very interesting, very enthusiastic, and she's on Woman's Hour today. First of all, let's have our regular check-in with Katie Balls, Deputy Political Editor at The Spectator,

and Helen Lewis, who's a staff writer for The Atlantic. We're going to try to sum up everything going on in the world of politics right now. Dominic Cummings still in position, Boris Johnson's key advisor. Just heard in the news at 10 o'clock, of course, about the resignation of the junior minister, Douglas Ross. Mr Cummings gave no apology yesterday, but a detailed explanation for his activities during lockdown.

And, of course, there'll be many people who have sympathy for him and, indeed, for the plight of his family with a child he was concerned about. Good morning Katie, good morning Helen, how are you both? Fine thank you. Good, good to hear from you both. I think we just about heard Katie there. Let's talk about child care because Mr Cummings made it a very prominent part of his explanation Helen. What do you make of that? I find it quite difficult because this isn't a government that has ever really shown itself particularly concerned with childcare. I mean, Katie can correct me on this,

but I can't remember them really ever having issued a press release about it or brought forward a bill to deal with it. So to suddenly hear about the struggles of a father I found quite enraging. But also more than that, I think was the suggestion that, and I think this is not unreasonable to say, my wife got ill and I was worried that, you know, that meant that I wouldn't be able to cope. It's something that I think is probably quite triggering to a lot of women listening to this. The idea that, you know, her job isn't so important.

My job is incredibly important and must be protected. And whether or not that's what he meant, I think that's what a lot of people will have heard. Yeah. Can we just talk practicalities, though? In truth, and you can interpret this however you like, his job is hugely significant right now. And with the best will in the world, she's a journalist. It's a slur on all journalists. I just want to put it out there, Helen, I'm a key worker myself. But I think you're right. And to me, the most, you me, what I suspect is the real story here is a story that's founded on specialness, that is about there were protesters outside the home,

and actually if you're going to be away from the office anyway, you'd rather do that in a place where people aren't shouting murderer through your windows. But I think the realisation was that you couldn't rely on any explanation that is about things are different for me, particularly when you're running quite a populist government and your appeal has always been we're standing up to the elites. So I think it's sad that what I think was a true and possibly defensible explanation has been rejected

in favour of a slightly absurd one about getting in a car to check your eyesight by having an hour-long drive. Well, we'll talk about that a little bit later. But, Katie, Helen's point there, that a man who has traded on standing up to the elite behaves in what some would interpret as acting in a profoundly elitist way. What do you say about that? Well, I think it's really difficult for the government. And you've seen that actually in how they've changed their messaging and the fact that Dominic Cummings did give a press conference yesterday. Initially, there were attempts in certain quarters to brush this off as a bubble story,

suggest it was campaigning newspapers, that this wouldn't have washed with normal people. Now, clearly, I think that, A, I think just anecdotally, that doesn't seem to be the case. But secondly, I think the fact that Downing Street took the measures they did yesterday took a quite extraordinary step of putting a government advisor out for a long interview. It shows they are worried about this as an issue that is cutting through. Would any woman have tried to use the childcare defence? And if she had attempted to use it, could she have got away with it, Katie? I'm not sure in terms of hypotheticals. I think that anyone who uses that excuse is going to come under a lot of scrutiny, particularly if they've had a hand in coming up with these guidelines in the first place, because the

issue is the childcare issues that Dominic Cummings has spoken about, as Helen touches on, I think many people empathise with, but also they're not completely unique circumstances. A lot of people have been grappling with childcare issues over the past couple of weeks, which is why I think it is having this difficulty in the sense there is still a backlash about what Dominic Cummings decided to do. After the 2017 election, Helen, Theresa May was obliged to get rid of her two key advisers, and she did so really, really quickly. That does present quite a contrast to the Dominic Cummings-Boris Johnson relationship, doesn't it? Yeah, although that was a kind of existential threat to her government from inside her own party, which is what's the interesting question for this week. You know, essentially a delegation of backbenchers was sent to say, you know, it's them or you.

And she unsurprisingly picked staying in Downing Street. And what's different here is whether or not the Tory MPs, you know, we've seen two dozen, including a minister now, you know, expressing real serious disquiet. Will it pick up enough steam in the only place, the only caucus that really has a say in Dominic Cummings' future, which is the Tory party itself. Okay, Katie, the driving. I wasn't sure about my eyesight. So I put my four-year-old child, who's at the very centre of my life, and for whom I have

travelled the length of the country, in the back of a car, and I took him on a drive. How on earth do you explain that? Yeah, well, I'm not personally a driver, but yeah, I mean, I think it's very quickly that part of the account that's been given has been dissected and suggested that it means there's a lack of credibility. I think that it comes due to the thing, do you make rash decisions in circumstances? But I think, again, it does come back to part of the difficulty,

and we're seeing that in the reaction from Tory MPs today, the fact we have now had a ministerial resignation, a junior one, but a resignation is that I think that if you look at the account, it feels as though some decisions were made that in retrospect were not the correct decisions, but therefore perhaps an apology and I think one thing I do I keep hearing from Conservative MPs is they wonder if the press conference yesterday could have had more of an impact had there been a blanket apology which wasn't there. No and again we are looking at this from a gendered perspective obviously that's our job. There was no apology should there have been Would a woman have been

more likely to make one? I think it's interesting there. I think if you look at this entire government's response to coronavirus so far, I think they have been criticised for generally being fairly unapologetic when mistakes have been made. And lots of people said it is because it is a macho government. You don't have, you know, women in lots of the key roles. If you look at the four most senior cabinet ministers, they are all men. And that has meant that actually some female ministers feel as though the messaging has been a bit harsh at times. But that said, if you, I suppose, step away from the specific incident, for example, Emmanuel Macron has apologised in part for their response. So I don't know if it is gender specific, but I definitely think generally speaking on the coronavirus response,

there is a sense in the Tory party, at least if you had more women at the top table, the messaging would have been a bit different in places. Now, a lot of attention has been drawn to an article that your colleague at The Spectator, Katie, Mary Wakefield, wrote about her family's experience of coronavirus. She, of course, is the partner of Dominic Cummings. In that article, which is rather sweet and references how kind Dominic Cummings has been and talks about their young son dressing up as a doctor to administer to them,

she doesn't mention that she was elsewhere, not in their London home. She doesn't say she was in London, but she certainly doesn't mention that they traveled to Durham, to County Durham. What do you think about that as somebody who works with her at that magazine? Well, I haven't spoken to her about it. I think that Dominic Cummings touched on the reasoning yesterday because he also wrote a poll entry and said it was because of concerns that there would be harassment if they mentioned they were in a family member's home. And since then, you have had camera crews go to that family member's home. But I'm not going to speak for my colleague on this because it's not something I

have the details of in that sense. It doesn't concern you that it might impact on the magazine's reputation? Well, I think we've run a broad range of coverage so far in response to this and are trying to do so, you know, objectively going forward. But I can't speak for my colleague on that. What do you think, Helen, this will do to the attitudes surrounding the lockdown and the incredibly unceasingly, certainly in the south of England, the unceasingly brilliant weather that we've all been having? How on earth are people supposed to interpret the lockdown rules now? And what impact do you think it will have on the return to school or possible return to school next week? I think people are still very cautious about the return to school and the messaging from the teaching unions is certainly very reluctant on that. But like I

went to my local park last night and people were gathering in quite large groups, unless people are living in some extraordinarily large households around here, which is possible, then it is fraying definitely at the edges. And I think the message that people have got from this is it's not actually about rules anymore. It's up to you, you know, and actually you can push it a little bit. And perhaps that was the case all along. And I'm sure there are many people who out there who committed very small infringements of lockdown and they justified it to themselves. But that wasn't, you know, that wasn't the law. And therefore, if you get caught doing that, you have to accept the consequences. Can we talk too about the danger that, sorry,

not the danger, the possibility that more women will get promoted into the cabinet in a forthcoming reshuffle of some kind? Because you certainly alluded, Katie, to the fact that there were key women or women missing from key positions, something that Amber Rudd talked about on this programme seems like eons ago now. Is that likely to happen and which women are likely to be promoted, do you think? Well, that was interesting. Boris Johnson suggested that this could be in the offing at Prime Minister's questions, but I have to say it felt a little bit as though he was thinking on the spot and the face of some of the MPs in the chamber seemed to be surprised.

But I do think it's something that has been noticed. I think the Prime Minister is trying to point to women behind the scenes who they brought in for various things. But in terms of the top team, I think that if you look at the most recent reshuffle, they were trying to promote women who don't currently have that much ministerial experience to roles where they could get that and then they could go up the next ladder. So I think people like Victoria Atkins and Helen Waitley are often names that come up as women who are seen as rising stars within the party. But ultimately, if we are dealing with coronavirus for a very long period,

what's quite important is who are in those four key positions for the morning meeting, which is more important than Cabinet these days. So I would suspect if you're making someone that senior, it would be women already in a Cabinet role. Helen, briefly? I think it's not so much about having women in the room as whether or not they're listened to. And actually, a good substitute for the fact that I agree the Tory party's got a promotion problem with the fact it's just got far fewer women to bring on in the parliamentary party

is to have proper gender-based analysis. This isn't beyond the wit of man to do equality impact assessments. Lots of companies already do them. And you have a situation where you might throw up the fact that, for example, returning to work when schools aren't fully open, is that going to impact much more on women? Absolutely. Is reopening when public loos aren't open, is that going to impact more on women, on elderly, on carers?

And actually what you could just do is bring that into policymaking. So it's not the job of the one woman in the room to go, hello, I think this might affect women a bit. You can just do that in a formal manner. Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned toilets, because I remember looking at our email inbox a week or so ago, and people were then asking, when are the toilets going to be open? Katie, that probably isn't something. Do you fondly imagine that anybody senior in the current cabinet, male, would have thought about the possibility that the lack of public toilets makes it difficult for some women to go out of the house at all? I don't think it's been top of the agenda.

The other one I keep hearing is haircuts. I think there are lots of hygiene reasons why hair salons can't be open for some time. But definitely, I have heard from a few MPs that they think if more women were higher up or consulted, perhaps in some more of the key meetings, that would be an issue that was discussed more. And then I think you go back to childcare and just that Sunday address from the prime minister when he talked about people going back to work, you know, imminently almost, and they didn't discuss in detail childcare. So I think there are a few examples there where I think it could have been different with different people advising. Thank you very much. Thank you for the thoughts of Katie Balls from The Spectator, Helen Lewis, staff writer for The Atlantic. During that, I was looking at our email inbox. Some of you are fed up with this story.

Some of you are really, really involved and extremely angry. And a man called Richard can't believe that I'm a key worker. Keep your thoughts coming via our website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Now, yesterday on the programme, we talked about pregnancy and birth and life with a newborn. We had some fantastic contributions. I know I'm still thinking about what the listener Lizzie had to say about what happened to her after she gave birth very recently. If you didn't hear that programme and it's something that might help you or somebody in your life, go to BBC Sounds. It's very reassuring, I promise you. It's not in any way anything to be avoided,

but it is something that could genuinely add to the experience of someone who is pregnant right now. Now, last week, we also heard that health visitors are concerned about a possible rise in postnatal depression since the COVID crisis began. And this is a listener called Laura. She's from London. She gave birth to her son Caleb on February the 27th. On the very day Boris Johnson announced lockdown was coming in, I felt my emotions really plummet. And I was on the phone to my GP within a few days, saying I was concerned that I might be heading towards postnatal depression. I was very tearful. I was feeling very anxious about just how I was going to cope with this tiny new life

and navigating all the difficulties and challenges of new motherhood without the support network that I'd been expecting to have. But one thing that has struck me is that I don't know how it is for other women experiencing anxiety or depression postnatally but for me one of the big problems I had was feeling inadequate as a mother feeling that I didn't know what to do with my son I didn't know how to make decisions and choices about how to look after him I felt so confused there's so much conflicting information and I just really lacked confidence I just felt completely at sea and I think one thing that lockdown has forced me to do is to become more confident in my

decision making as a mother because simply because I've just literally had to make those decisions I mean obviously in conjunction with my husband as well but the majority of the time I've been on my own with my baby and that has meant that I well ultimately that we've got to know each other very well and I do feel incredibly close incredibly bonded with my son I'm sure I hope most mums do and everyone finds their own way to get there but I think yeah if I was forced to find one positive thing about lockdown I would say that it has meant that all that alone time with my baby has meant that Caleb and I have really got to know each other and we've developed a really profound bond.

And I suppose on some level that's something I'm grateful for. Well, that is Laura, who's in London with her son Caleb, and congratulations to her. She did talk there about being at risk of postnatal depression. There is support available. You should, if you can, contact your GP, your midwife or your health visitor. There is also a helpline run by a charity called Pandas and there is a new digital app.

It's called Peppy. It's been developed by the National Health Service and by the National Childbirth Trust. You can look on our website for links to those sources of information. And this might help as well. This is Lindsay Thurloway. She's a midwife and an antenatal educator in Newcastle, and she set up an online group just before lockdown to help women as normal services started to be withdrawn or reduced. It is called Antenatal and Postnatal Education Group Northeast, and it's already got nearly a thousand members.

So here's Lindsay. Obviously, in light of the Covid situation, most of those face to face sessions were reduced or completely cancelled within the NHS. And at a time when women probably needed more support than ever. And so as a practitioner, I decided that I just couldn't kind of sit back and watch women struggle with that lack of support. And so I gathered a group of fellow practitioners and birth workers, and we decided to set up this free Facebook group, which would offer women not just locally, but throughout the UK and other countries, we've found out subsequently, with a huge range of education

that they generally would have been provided with by the NHS and resources and emotional support as well. If we can focus on the postnatal period most people who've been in that situation are if they're lucky perhaps reliant on having the help of their mum or their mother-in-law or close female friends. At the moment, that's almost impossible. It is impossible. And I think in terms of what I'm seeing and hearing, because I'm still teaching a lot of postnatal groups online so I can see and hear from mums and see their struggles, is that we have a complete split really in their thoughts in that a lot of women are really struggling with lack of family involvement and that isn't just from support it's not just mum's family friends coming around to help it's actually that their families are missing out on seeing their

babies at this stage of learning how their babies are developing and just missing out on all those magic moments that grandparents and relatives relish in the early days. So they're really struggling from both points of view. It's not just the actual help. Lots of them have partners at home who may be furloughed or working from home. So they might actually have a little bit more help within the house than they would have usually but just not from the same sources. And can you replicate any of that support online you can't really can you?

So no I guess what we are what I'm seeing a lot online is that because the classes that I run and lots of other practitioners I do are not interactive so the women can see each other and talk to each other so I've kind of adapted the classes now so that the first half an hour or so is a bit like a coffee and catch up for these mums it's not just me sitting talking and teaching them and they are being really open about how they're struggling and they are generally being a great form of support and no it cannot replicate what they generally would get meeting women face to face getting getting out and about, meeting other babies, seeing other babies, socialising.

But it's as good as we can get at the moment. And then we've had emails here from women who are on their own at the moment, and that must be even tougher. It must be incredibly tough. And I literally every day feel in awe of all of these women who are going through this I feel personally so privileged to be able to support them and just be in the company of women that are going through this at the moment they are all absolute superheroes and my thoughts

for women who are doing this solo at home without a partner present I I really, I can't believe how strong they must be. Some women, I do know a couple of women who are going through that situation and have ended up moving in with parents because they just couldn't physically or emotionally see how they would cope with that solo. So they've actually decided ahead of lockdown that that's what their situation would be. And we should say at this point that the official government guidance says you are allowed to do exactly that if you have no other way of operating. Is it possible to learn how to breastfeed by watching a YouTube tutorial? It's really difficult to just watch a video like that. And I think what women

should be kind of signposted to is a lot of and this will be dependent on your local area a lot of places have actually set up video conferencing one-to-ones with women so with breastfeeding consultants lactation consultants can actually sit and observe a feed as best they can so that a woman has some feedback rather than just being a generic video where you know it's pretty faceless there's nobody there to answer any questions so there is still breastfeeding support out there and often in the early days if it's midwives or health visitors they in some areas will still visit women with PPE to try and help that some clinics some breastfeeding clinics

are still open that women can visit as well. But there is definitely a reduced level of support. And the future, what are people saying to you about what they want to know? What sort of reassurance would help them as the weeks go by? I think a lot of women really want to know how long this is going to go on for. And in terms of their own mental health and their babies they're very much concerned about how their babies will develop um in in the absence of any of their social interaction i mean a lot of these women will be heading back to work at some point and their concerns are around you know babies that are going to have to go into nursery places for

example that may have spent the majority of their life with just parents and then all of a sudden are taken into an environment like a nursery a private nursery um so there's lots of concerns around that um what i would i would like to add at this point is that i know that a lot of this has been um focused on the difficulties that women are facing at home but there are a huge amount of positive reports coming back as well from women so I don't want anybody who's sat at home pregnant you know looking at the next few months of having a baby to think that it is all negative. First of all the general situation outside of all of this when we have a baby is that women come home to a society that expects a lot of them and their partners have a

very short period of time off work and go back to work and then women are left hitting the ground running basically you know with lots of social pressure into doing and you know getting out and about very quickly getting up and dressed not not just being in this little cocoon with your baby in the early days which i try and really recommend to women so don't have a barrage of visitors you know get to know your baby at home get to almost protect yourself in this little bubble for a while um and that's really difficult to get across to women generally but now they're being forced into this position and so lots of women are actually coming back and saying this has been great for me bonding with my baby.

I feel like I know my baby so well. Me and my partner have had this really privileged period of time of being alone with the baby. And a lot of second time mums actually and third time mums are saying, I cannot wait to have a baby in lockdown. Because the previous twice I've had a baby it's been awful in the early days and we've been bombarded with a lot of people. Yeah it's good to get that perspective that was Lindsay Thurloway midwife and antenatal educator in Newcastle. Links for help on the website but there are varied opinions on that I know some people are saying that if you've got a newborn and you're doing homeschooling or trying to do it at the same time, that is a really tough call.

On the other hand, people have also echoing what Lindsay said there, have enjoyed that cocoon and actually the ability to say, no, you cannot come and see my baby. And thoroughly enjoying being able to refuse to allow anyone to come in. I can see I can see both sides. That's what I'm paid to see. This is Woman's Hour. Good morning. Quick heads up that you and yours have got a phone in here on Radio 4 at about 20 past 12 today.

And today it's about how you're managing your weight in lockdown. 03700 100 444. The lines for the you and yours weight phone in are open now. Tomorrow on the programme, Jenny will be here and she'll be talking to another Jenny, the novelist Jenny Colgan about her new novel, 500 Miles From You. And on Friday

we're talking about too much alcohol in lockdown. If you've already got an issue with drinking, is the current situation making matters even worse? Or perhaps you are a recovering alcoholic and you're finding this period really really challenging or maybe you're just a so-called social drinker who is finding that you are reaching for the fridge or whatever it might be

a little earlier than normal let us know how things are going for you also we'd like to hear from people who work as commercial cleaners. So if that's you, if you are a commercial cleaner with a story to tell about your experiences of working in this period, please do email Woman's Hour via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Now, you have to be worth 120 million quid to make the Sunday Times Rich List, which this year did include a record number of women, 150 out of a total of 1,000 names on that list. 53 are described as having money because of marriage or inheritance.

97 are self-made. Annabel Williams is a former Times journalist and the author of a book coming out in the autumn called Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It. So she seems an ideal guest on this subject. Annabelle, good morning to you. Good morning. Tell me then, why are there so few women on this list? The most striking thing is that compared to men, women are far more likely to have inherited their wealth or married into it.

I mean, the difference between somebody being self-made and kind of being born into the family business, I mean, I think the line there can be quite fuzzy. And also, I mean, there's no suggestion that if a woman is born into the family business that she won't be as good. On the contrary, there's lots of evidence that companies with mixed gender teams do better. Right, of course, some of the men on the list will have inherited their wealth as well, presumably.

Yes, they will also have been born into the family business. But, I mean, really the problem is that there are barriers to women starting their own businesses and being entrepreneurial. The government has looked into this. There was the Rose Review, which came out last year, and it stated, and this is paraphrasing, there is an underlying attitude among some men, whether potential funders or business partners, that women do not really belong in the entrepreneurial world. Right. Now, this is where it gets really interesting. This is where women

setting up businesses cannot get the cash to get them started. What possible explanations might there be for exactly that? Well, the statistics here are really quite shocking. So just one P in every pound of venture capital funding goes to female startups. Just explain what venture capital funding is. So the route to kind of grow a business is to go out to private investors normally, who will like your idea and give you a sum of money to get going. And these people are called venture capitalists. I think the word is like they're adventurers. They're going into something unknown. And they, what, tend to be male?

So this is the issue. I mean, basically about 96% of them are men in Britain, and only 3% are people of colour. So because of that, there's an automatic bias there from these male people with the money towards the businesses that they want to invest in. I mean, so there's been research that shows that there is a preference among venture capital investors for male ideas. There's a perception among some men that women are not as good as custodians of money or not as good at managing businesses. Yes. I mean, we're back where we started, really, because to be a venture capitalist, you've got to have a few quid.

And to have a few quid, you're more likely to be a man. So what do you do with all this? Yeah, I mean, this is the old adage that it takes money to make money. And venture capitalism is an elite club. It's dominated by white men. One of the things that the government has really been pushing for is there to be more transparency on how funding is allocated to small businesses. And something else that I really wanted to raise here was in the UK, it is fairly possible for somebody to get startup capital to get their business going. Compared to the US, though, it's much, much harder to get that follow on capital, the money that you need to take your business from

a small business up to, you know, an 120 million type business that's going to make you actually rich. And this is really, you know, this is really a problem in the UK, because we just don't have those networks that have people that are willing to invest in these businesses, especially not for women. Right, can we just then I was going to say celebrate the women who have made the list, but actually celebrate is the right word because whilst not everybody is a huge fan of the capitalist system, these women are on the whole likely to employ lots of other women and make people's lives substantially better as a result. Yeah, absolutely. And a point I mentioned earlier was that there is lots of evidence that companies that have mixed gender teams, they do better in terms of corporate social responsibility.

They are more profitable over the long term. I mean, it's just about having a diversity of ideas within the management. And just to kind of talk about some of the uh women on the list who did make their own fortunes um one of the great stories is denise coats uh she's in charge of bet 365 which is an online betting company um she spent her weekends as a school girl working at her father's betting shops um after she got her degree in econometrics she then took over the business and she made the gamble that online betting was going to be the business and she made the gamble that online betting was going to be the future yes i mean some people are bound to take issue obviously

with the nature of denise coates's family business gambling is not something that everybody is terribly keen on yeah i mean there is a kind of you know there is that kind of moral issue here but one of the problems with women not being able to scale up their businesses is that women, female founders of businesses tend to be concentrated in certain areas. So they're more likely to be in lifestyle and beauty. They're less likely to be starting businesses in kind of scientific areas in technology. And yeah, you know, Denise Coates, that isn't it's an online gambling business it's got technology behind it uh you know so she's done something uh really exceptional there yeah we need to say as well there is only one black woman on that list that is valerie moran yeah um she's also a tech a tech entrepreneur so she is zimbabwe born. But alongside her Irish husband, Noel, she ran an online payments company called prepaid financial services, which they recently sold for 234 million pounds. Not bad. Where are you setting your sights, Annabelle? Do you want to be on this list one day?

As a journalist and an author, I'm not sure that reaching 120 million is going to happen. Well, you tell me. Go on. I suppose what I'm really asking is there will be some people at home thinking, oh, this is just clad cuckoo land. I mean, there may be many people who deliberately don't get the Sunday Times, the week that they come out with their rich list because they just don't want to know. It's all just too horrible for words. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. But the reason that I wrote my book, Why Women Are Poorer Than Men, which is available for pre-order, by the way, is because it's just... You're on your way to your first million there, go on. Yeah, potentially. It's just assumed, you know, that women are the ones that stay home. They're

the ones that work part time. So in the UK, 40% of women work part time. And just because of that, they're not going to be really high earners. It's just assumed, you know, that we do the caregiving, we work part time, we raise the children. And, you know, some of us are good at business. But, you know, women really don't get to the very upper echelons of business. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about the kind of the women who are like knocking on the door of the boardroom and trying to bust the glass ceiling. But there's this whole other world of women who really want to be running their own businesses.

You know, they can fit that around their family. And it's just self-determination, really. Thank you very much, Annabelle. Annabelle Williams, a former Times journalist, and her book is called Why Women Are Poorer Than Men and What We Can Do About It. We'd be really interested to hear from you if you have tried to get a business off the ground

and have really struggled to get that funding that is so important right at the start when you need to get going. So do tell us about that if you've had a tough time getting the cash. Now, we know that over the last couple of months, so much brilliant work has been done by volunteers. And before lockdown began,

Women's Hour did start to interview women who were already out there doing all this good stuff, volunteering in all kinds of different places, community cafes, at food banks, working with homeless people as well. They are women who just get stuck in. They are troopers and they've been telling their stories to our reporter Laura Thomas. And today we start with Margaret Johnson, who works at Chester Storyhouse. It's a cinema, a theatre and a library a retired nurse living in Chester. And I came to do this, I was one day visiting Storyhouse to go to the theatre. And a lady who was a volunteer came up and started a conversation with me.

And then a few weeks after that, I was approached by one of the managers in the archives asking me if I would like to do Chatter and Natter. So I've been doing that now for nearly two years on a Thursday morning between the hours of 10 and 12. Tell me what Chatter and Natter is. Chatter and Natter is a table for people to come and sit who are either coming for a coffee on their own or want to communicate because some people spend all week and don't speak to anybody. So it's a place for people to come and have a chat, meet new people and have some company and not feel isolated like a lot of people do. Before you started doing this work, was this issue of loneliness something that you were aware of? Yeah, well, I experienced it myself.

Three years ago, I lost my very... I didn't lose her, but she had Alzheimer's and went into a nursing home. She was a family for many, many years, and we loved the theatre and we loved holidays together. And I could see the deterioration in her. Of course, she was diagnosed with this Alzheimer's. When she first went into a nursing home, You could see the deterioration in her. Of course, she was diagnosed with this Alzheimer's.

When she first went into a nursing home, I used to go and see her, but I used to find it so traumatic and distressing. I used to cry going back to the bus stop because she was such a changed lady. She didn't know me. Then I came very isolated because once you retire, it's not easy to make friends. And this was an opening for me, you know, because I understood about loneliness and isolation. I wanted to help people to be able to meet up and communicate. And it's also helped me as well.

What does loneliness feel like? It's quite depressing, really. You lose your space in life. You start to lose confidence. You go deeper and deeper into yourself and you don't really want to go out and when you wake up in the morning you don't have a reason to get up because the days are so endless. What kind of people come to Chatter and Natter? I've had students that go to the university in Chester who've come, you know, from a long way like Mexico and that, who are feeling homesick, and they've been coming in and working on their iPads, and then they see the Chatter and Natter table,

and they come over and have a chat. There's a gentleman that came in who was got a job gardening for the council but nowhere to live and he was sleeping on a bench so I was able to advise him where to go and three weeks later he came back to thank me for finding a place to live and then we have the elderly we have a lady that's 90 who spends pays 14 pound to come and see me um she really looks forward to that is that her cab fare a cab fare yes we have lovely conversations we talk about anything from diy tores to clothes. So I enjoy it as well. And I get quite close to some people. Sadly, I lost one of my ladies.

She used to come every Thursday. She used to get a taxi. She had a little walking frame. She suffered very badly with osteoarthritis. But she always looked very, very smart. Always put her jewellery on and that. And we were really sort of soulmates really because we've got on so well together

and sadly she had a fall going to the taxi one Thursday and then I had a message from somebody from the library saying they thought one of the ladies that came to chat on Natterwood fell and I managed to trace where you know, where she was, got in touch with her daughter and went to see her. I was asked to go to the funeral, but I didn't want to go to the funeral.

I wanted to remember how she was. I do miss her. There are people who've become real friends. Yeah, it's friends that are, you know, a distant friend. They don't come to my house. But we are friends and we look forward to seeing each other. There's one lady that's only in her 40s who's quite isolated.

She's there before I am every Thursday morning waiting for me. She's quite a shy lady and she likes to chat on her own before everybody else comes. And then when everybody else comes, she sort of sits and listens. Margaret, I asked around amongst people who work with you to tell us why what you do is so important and why you're so amazing. And these are some of the things that they said.

I'm going to just read them to you. Margaret, and what she does here, is one of the things that makes Storyhouse so special. She's creating a community, creating a sense of belonging and trust and, I'm sure, happiness. And then, Margaret is really thought-provoking. She's made me reflect on all the loneliness that exists

and how sad that is, and she's making a real difference. Storyhouse would be a different place without Margaret and her chatter and natter. Margaret is tackling loneliness in Chester, making a true difference every week. Just wondered what you thought about those. I feel very humble about it because the people who have said all those things

don't realise what Storyhouse means to me. It's completely changed my life. It's brought me such joy and happiness. My son has said to me, Mum, you're a different person now. I just say a big thank you to Storyhouse for having me. That is Margaret and well done to her. She is continuing her work, chattering over the phone during lockdown, so our very best wishes to her.

That was Margaret, who clearly really excels at her voluntary work and gives people a lot of support. And she is able, in lockdown, to carry on doing exactly that on the phone. And here's one of the emails we've had about Margaret from Michael, who very succinctly says, Margaret, what a lovely person. Well, there we go. And there are, we know there are so many women like Margaret out there in Britain doing all the good stuff, all the things that on the whole don't get celebrated. So we're really glad that we're able to do exactly that over the coming days and weeks on Woman's Hour.

Now, to your emails on the programme today. This is from Jackie. Jane. Yes, that's my name. Jane, interested in your review of the Dominic Cummings interview. Not only would a Dominica Cummings be accused of being an incompetent mother for not being able to manage her own childcare, but if she had to drive 30 miles to test her eyesight, she'd be accused of being an incompetent driver. I mean, that is the thing, isn't it? That we know what would happen. We can all think of prominent women in politics and around politics. If they'd said anything like that, they would have been utterly castigated. It's just extraordinary. A lot of people also taking me up on the fact that I didn't ask why Mary Wakefield hadn't done the driving. Mayor

Culper should have asked. Interestingly, neither Katie Bowles nor Helen Lewis, who are contributors to that conversation, can drive. Just out of interest, they're both much younger than me, journalists, and they don't drive. I do drive and I always thought that you had to drive if you were a journalist. I have to say I'm slightly surprised, but maybe if you've only ever lived in London, it's not a prerequisite. Still, to me, slightly puzzling. John is more than puzzled. He's outraged by my declaration that I'm a key worker. He says, key workers are those who work in the health service or education or jobs essential to keep the economy functioning,

often putting their own lives on the line to do so. Jane Garvey is not a key worker. She's a journalist in a studio or perhaps her kitchen. Her contention that she's a key worker is insulting to key workers. She should apologise on air for her ridiculous statement. OK, a couple of things there. I'm in a studio, not a kitchen. I should say I'm coming into work. There are those of us who are working on Woman's Hour today. It's Siobhan and Lois and Louise and Nigel. We're all coming in.

You might say, potentially, at some cost to ourselves, but we are all still doing it. We are not at home. That's one point, John. Secondly, all of us are key workers as we work in public service broadcasting and we have the little certificates to prove it. I can assure you of that. So far from being a ridiculous statement, John, it was a statement of fact. Yes, you may have struck a bit of a raw nerve there.

Do you get that impression, John? You're probably not listening This is about, and I thought this is interesting and I'm sure other people are thinking this too This is from Anna on our conversation with Annabelle Williams about the rich list and why there are still so few women on it Jane, I find the whole discussion about women in the rich list really frustrating I've never aspired to the kind of money people on the rich list have.

At that level, it's just meaningless. To assume that the reason women aren't up there is because we can't make it does us a disservice. Many, many women are cleverer than that. We know that happiness and success are not defined by having a load of money. The angle is all wrong. And as long as being mega rich is seen as

a measure of success, I fear we will never move forward. Thank you for that. And I'm sure you'll have many supporters. Also, I wanted to mention again, that the whole subject of postnatal life and how difficult it can be, excuse me, for people at the moment, particularly, obviously, in relation to our programme yesterday, which if you missed is still available of course on BBC sounds and is worth hearing if you're pregnant or you're in that immediate post-birth period if or if you know somebody who is in either of those two situations this from Kay this is the exact situation I'm in says Kay I've had my first baby in January he He was two months old the day lockdown started. Antenatal classes were cancelled in December, so I didn't really know any new mothers.

Without family help, this has been an isolating period, particularly as my son has reflux and can be unsettled. We've really missed out on baby groups and networks. And frankly, I dread having to go back to work, not having had these opportunities. My health visitor has now referred me to seek help for postnatal anxiety. And I honestly don't think I'd be in this situation if I'd had practical support from family to give me a break during this time. The days are long when you're up half the night with your baby and lonely a lot of the time trying to entertain them. My health visitor did suggest that I break lockdown restrictions, we are in Scotland, says Kay, to do a distanced walk with family for the good of my mental health. But my husband and I have stuck so

stringently to the rules and I did not want to break them. So the Dominic Cummings revelation has been especially galling. Yep, you can imagine, can't you, how the likes of Kay are feeling right now. Our very best wishes to you. And if it's any consolation, you will start to feel better. Honestly, honestly, you will. I'm not saying it's easy by any stretch, but it will happen to you. Dear Jane, says Claire, my daughter gave birth on March the 15th. We held our first granddaughter on the 19th of March. Then, of course, lockdown came in on the 23rd. She's on her own with just with her partner. They have been amazing and their daughter is growing and

developing fantastically. However, we have nights when our daughter is on her own. Her partner works nights and she's crying, not knowing how to soothe her daughter. So we have through FaceTime tried to support her. We only live a couple of miles apart and she wanted to live close so she had family support. We are a very close family. It has been so difficult to watch her struggle and I just want to help. After that weekend news of just follow your parental instinct, don't you? I feel I have failed and my daughter's well-being has been affected. We are now as a family still trying to adjust to this. And again, there's just another slice of one particular family's life

and another example of a group of people trying to do the right thing at whatever cost to themselves. And I think that is why this stuff has just been so galling to not everybody, but to so many people. We should also say that some people have emailed, first of all, to say how bored they are with the whole subject and also to say that they fully support him and they'd have done the same

and who wouldn't act in that way if a small child was involved. Hashtag BBC balance. Now, to an email about toilets from Deborah. I think this is important too. I work in further education, and at some point I'll have to go back to my lecturing post. I need to go to the toilet regularly. I work in a building with three floors.

The top floor has about 200 students and staff, and there's one toilet. The second floor is the same. The ground floor has three toilets and about 70 students. The situation is very difficult for all of us. I have actually peed myself looking for an empty toilet. Just imagine that. There are many issues affecting a safe and healthy return to school. Have the government even thought about the basics of toilet hygiene? Even if student class numbers are halved or even quartered, I wonder if those promoting a return to education would themselves share a toilet with 200, 100 or even 50 different

students on one day. The remainder of the week would also bring in other students and staff with different timetables. I work four days a week. I could eventually end up sharing a toilet with 400 different people over the course of my working week. That's a thought too, isn't it? Deborah, thank you very much for that. Keep your emails coming. They are the lifeblood of the programme. You certainly don't have to agree with us and particularly you certainly don't have to agree with me. We take all comers and we really welcome your interest and involvement. So please keep your emails coming via the website bbc.co.uk. Slash Woman's Hour, especially relevant if you have an idea for us, something you feel that no one else is talking about that you want discussed.

Jenny's here tomorrow. I'm back on Friday. Have a good couple of days. Hi, my name's Jarvis Cocker and I'm here to tell you about Wireless Nights, a nocturnal investigation into the human condition. A collection of stories about the night, and the people who come alive after dark. From nightclubs to night rail, from the man in the moon to the land of the midnight sun, join me and discover a different kind of nightlife.

All episodes now available on the BBC Sounds app. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.