Woman's Hour - Trump conviction, FGM ban at risk in Gambia, TV’s Queen of Books

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Donald Trump has been convicted on all 34 counts of falsifying business records in his criminal trial in New York. It is the first time a former or serving US president has been convicted of a crime. Anita Rani is joined by New York Times journalist Amanda Taub and political commentator Julie Norman to talk about the woman at the centre of the case, the prosecution's star witness Stormy Daniels.Amanda Ross is one of the most powerful women in publishing who doesn't even work in publishing. She's created and produced many major book-based campaigns on TV over the last 20 years, including Richard & Judy's Book Club and Between The Covers on BBC Two. She personally selects the books featured and has been responsible for launching the careers of many bestselling authors, including Kate Mosse, David Nicholls and Victoria Hislop. Amanda is hosting the Between the Covers Live! UK Tour 2024 and joins Anita to discuss. Politicians in The Gambia are debating whether to overturn the ban on female genital mutilation. Activist Fatou Baldeh MBE describes the impact this discussion is having on the ground and her own experiences of surviving FGM.Singer Abi Sampa has become the first British woman to perform qawwali – a form of Sufi devotional music typically performed by men – at the Royal Albert Hall. Abi, who is also a trained dentist, talks to Anita about her genre-defying Orchestral Qawwali Project which mixes South Asian traditions with western choral music and balancing her careers in music and dentistry. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Maryam Maruf

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. You may well have heard the news that Donald Trump has become the first former president of America to be convicted of a crime, falsifying business records. We've just heard that he will be,

he's planning to appeal. We are going to hear about the woman at the centre of Trump's hush money trial, Stormy Daniels. I'm also going to be joined by Amanda Ross, one of the most powerful women in publishing who doesn't even work in publishing. She's the mastermind behind many TV shows, including the BBC book show

Beneath the Covers. It's the show that's about to have a live tour and Amanda will be hosting on stage. So she's going to be adding something else to her already impressive CV. Well, they do say sometimes if you want a job doing, just do it yourself. Can you relate to this? It doesn't have to be hosting at all. I think there's a time in most of our lives when we're faced with an opportunity to do something that may be out of your comfort zone, but you have a choice to give it a go or you have no choice and life has just chucked you a curveball and you now have to deal with it. I want to know about that moment in your life.

How did you cope? This morning, tell me about the time when you really surprised yourself with your ability to do something you never thought you could or that you would ever have to do. Or something that you secretly wanted to do but didn't dare put yourself forward until you did. Anything from fixing a shelf, tweaking the car, getting the main role in a play when you were made to feel like you were only the side part, taking charge at work, going on a solo adventure, having to care for something or someone. When have you decided that you are stepping up and just going for it? Share that experience with me. You can get in touch with me in the usual way, the text number 84844. You can also email me via our website or WhatsApp me or drop me a voice

note. It's 03700 100 444. Also this morning, we'll be travelling to Gambia to find out why the FGM ban may be overturned, and Sufi music. Abisampa has joined an elite gang, only the third woman and the first British woman to sing Galali at the Royal Albert Hall. That text number once again, tell me about that time you've stepped out and surprised yourself and done something completely unexpected. 84844 is the number to text. But first, Donald Trump has been convicted on all 34 counts of falsifying business records in his criminal trial in New York. It's the first time

a former or serving US president has been convicted of a crime. He's due to be sentenced on the 11th of July. The ex-president could face prison, but legal experts say a fine is the more likely outcome. Trump has called the verdict a disgrace and his lawyers say he will appeal. The court heard from 22 witnesses over six weeks, including Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, who was considered the prosecution's star witness, and Stormy Daniels, whose alleged sexual encounter with Trump was at the centre of this case. Dr Julie Norman, Associate Professor in Politics and International Relations from University College London, joins me, as does London-based writer for The New York Times, Amanda Taub. Morning to both of you. Amanda, I'm going to come to you first.

Let's go through this. Talk us through what happened yesterday. So the jury convicted Trump of all counts that he was being tried for, which, as you mentioned, I think was 34. And the charges all related to this one underlying theory, which is that Trump had falsified business records. He had faked what some payments were for in order to cover up a conspiracy to violate campaign laws, in this case by hiding the true purpose of the funds that he paid to Stormy Daniels, who was an adult film actress who had said that she had a sexual encounter with Mr. Trump. So let's talk about the woman at the centre of this then, Stormy Daniels. Who is she and what is her role in all of this? So she is a very well-known adult film actress in the United States.

And she has said that years ago, before he was running for president, when he was still on The Apprentice, she had a brief sexual encounter with Mr. Trump. She has described it, I think you could say, as consensual, but unexpected and probably unwanted. She thought they were having a meeting about her career. And years later, when he was running for president, he has, according to the charges that he has now been convicted for, paid her a large sum of money to keep her from revealing her story publicly. And he denies having sex with her. He denies having sex with her. That's right.

So what was her testimony like? So they I would say her testimony was interesting. Trump's attorneys on cross-examination tried very hard to use her background and her career to undermine her credibility. So at one point, they said, you know, oh, you have a lot of experience faking sex scenes for money, don't you? And she said, well, in the films that I did, the sex was real, just like what I've testified about happened with Mr. Trump. And then she even made a little joke about it in a way that I think kind of took back the narrative.

She said that if she had scripted the scene, it would have been much better than what actually happened to her. So she was on the front foot with that response. She was. I mean, I think that she probably knew this was coming and so was prepared to take ownership of her own background and really, you know, not try to shy away from it. And clearly, you know, was very convincing for the jury. And what are your thoughts on how she was cross-examined in order to be able to make her look like a less credible witness and focusing on her work in the sex industry?

I think it was not surprising because Trump's lawyers needed to do what they could to try to undermine her. But I think it does show that that kind of thing is just not necessarily effective as a way to undermine somebody's credibility, given that she had never tried to hide it. She had never tried to keep it a secret. They also tried to portray her as just in it for money for basically, you know, doing this to make a million dollars. I think they said at one point they accused her of exploiting the story because she sold merchandise relating to it and had gone on a tour of strip clubs called, I think, Make America Horny Again. But that was not a criticism that really landed because, of course, Donald Trump has not only tried to monetize every aspect of his own life for branding, he has written books about what a good idea that is to do. So she was able to say,

you know, very much like Mr. Trump, yes, I did this. And once again, that seems to have really not landed as a dent to her credibility. But there has been some discussion and suggestions that she went into too much detail. Yeah, I mean, I think that that is probably a bit of an unfair criticism given that she was on the stand and not in control of what she was being asked

she needed to shed some light on what happened um i mean you mean what she the details that she described of the sexual encounter um i mean she has said that she uh i'm in the sense she had to describe the sex that happened so she, in order to kind of explain why there was something to be covered up. So she had said, you know, she looked up and she was shocked to see a man in his underwear. She may have described him as an older man in his underwear or something like that.

She said, you know, she just lay there and couldn't believe that this was happening to her, basically. So she described herself as, you know, I think, passive and unhappy participant in what happened. But she has not said that she said no. She's not said that it was not consensual. I mean, Trump continues to deny that he had sex with Miss Daniels. And is there potential grounds of appeal?

So there is. I think not on that point, because the jury's findings of fact tend to stand unless there is some sort of evidentiary wrongdoing or something like that. I think the bigger questions about appeal here are that it was a somewhat novel legal theory of this case. So for falsifying business records to be a felony, it needs to be covering up another crime. And in this case, it was a state case where they were alleging that the falsification of the records covered up a violation of state finance laws. But this was a federal election campaign. So that's just never been tried before. And the current district attorney, his predecessor, had declined to bring charges because he thought that this was too novel a legal theory to try out. But it clearly was sufficient, at least at trial.

Mr. Trump has said he will now appeal. And so we'll see what the appeals court says. And have we heard from Stormy Daniels or from anyone in her camp? What have they said? You know, I actually am not sure what their latest statement has been. But she has previously said that she was concerned that if he was acquitted, she would have to leave the country because she's faced so much harassment. She's faced, you know, so much kind of in the way of harassment, threats, mistreatment from people who believe that she's trying to bring down the former president, that I think she was afraid for her safety and

that of her daughter. I think her husband, Barrett Blade, spoke to CNN and he said it's a big weight off her shoulders at this point and saying that she feels a little vindicated that she was telling the truth. So what happens next? So the sentencing is set for July. We don't know what the sentence will be until then. Mr. Trump will face some of the same things that any convicted felon in New York would face. So he will now have interviews with the parole board. He will have to make his case for why he should get lenience and sentencing as a first time offender. And then the judge will have a decision to make about whether to impose prison time or a fine. And whether if he does order prison, when that sentence would begin or if it would wait for appeal.

Fascinating stuff. I'm going to bring in Dr. Julie Norman, who's Associate Professor in Politics and International Relations from University College London. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Julie. Former President Trump secured the Republican presidential nomination earlier this year and is scheduled to be crowned at the party's convention just days after his sentencing. According to one US-based poll this month, 25% of Republicans said they would be even more likely to vote for Trump if he were found guilty by a jury. But in a survey in April found that 16 percent of those backing Trump would reconsider their support in such a situation. This was prior to any verdict. How much of an impact do you think could this have on on his base? Well, good morning. You know, as you said, the polls suggest that the outcome of this case in particular will probably be to some degree a wash. I mean, many of his supporters will see

this as extra ammunition, extra reason to double down on their enthusiasm for Trump. You know, they have believed how he has characterized this as political overreach, as a witch hunt, even as election interference. And so they will double down on that. We are seeing in some polls that at least some Trump supporters say they would reconsider their vote if there is a conviction. What people say they might do and what they actually do doesn't always line up. My guess is he will lose a few voters, but probably not enough to sway an election in the way that I think many people anticipated would be the case if a president was or a candidate was convicted of a felony. And what about specifically the female vote? What kind of impact might it have

on them? Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us will be watching. You know, one thing that's interesting is that Trump has already been losing some women voters in the polls even prior to the news from yesterday. We've seen looking at numbers from the 2020 election up till now that he does, he is losing in that demographic already, I think largely for the abortion issue and other issues as well. For this case in particular, again, I think it might be a wash. There will be many who feel that, as Amanda discussed, that Stormy Daniels was criticized as a woman in this case in particular because of gender-related issues. Other women, I think, will kind of turn their backs because they don't approve of a woman like Stormy Daniels.

So I think the way that the party responds to this often, often ends up coming out awash in terms of numbers. Even if you talk to individual voters, they might have very different responses to this. Will he be able to run if he's sentenced to prison time? Yeah, it's a good question. Again, all of this is uncharted territory. But right now in the U.S. Constitution, there are very few limitations to keep someone from running for office. There's nothing that's mentioned about prison time, probably because the founders did not anticipate that. But because of that, there is nothing that would preclude him still from running or even serving, even if there

was prison time. I would note, as Amanda said, the appeals are going to take a while. The sentencing is looking like it would probably be a finer probation rather than prison time. But again, all this is yet to be seen. And what are your thoughts on how President Biden navigates this in his campaign for a second term as president? Yeah, I mean, we've already seen, you know, both campaigns obviously come out after the verdict and the Biden campaign saying, look, only the ballot, only your vote is really going to keep Trump out of office. So essentially, I think saying to voters, you don't just be content with this verdict, you still need to come out and vote. And that's really where the rubber hits the road on what the future for the US is going to look like. I think Democrats and Biden in particular will be careful. Biden in particular, I think, will be cautious about

commenting directly on the trial, but will certainly try to, you know, frame this as just one more reason why Trump is not fit for office. Well, thank you both for joining me this morning to bring us up to speed about that. We will continue to watch with fascination. Dr. Julie Norman, Associate Professor in Politics and International Relations from UCL and New York Times writer, Amanda Taub. So many of you getting in touch this morning with stories of when you've stepped out to do something beyond your comfort zone. Tracy says, last year, aged 61, I learned to scuba dive to surprise my daughter who lives in Port Douglas in Australia.

I got to dive with both my daughters on the Great Barrier Reef. Oh, this is making my hair stand on end. She says, incredible, totally out of my comfort zone and terrifying, but one of the best experiences of my life. 84844. The reason I'm asking you all of this is because of my comfort zone and terrifying but one of the best experiences of my life 84844 the reason I'm asking you all of this is because of my next guest Amanda Ross was named number one in the observer list of the 50 most powerful people in publishing and technically she doesn't even work in publishing she's a very successful tv exec and ceo of cactus tv a production company

responsible for a lot of TV most of you have probably enjoyed watching. But it was her idea of creating Richard and Judy's book club and then numerous other TV book shows, including the Zoe Ball book club, Crime Thriller book club, and most recently Between the Covers for the BBC that propelled her into a publishing powerhouse. Well, she's now about to step out from behind the scenes to take centre stage hosting the Between the Covers live tour,

adding another string to her very impressive bow. Amanda Ross, welcome to Woman's Hour. Wow, what a wonderful introduction. I mean, that's your CV. Thank you. Let's talk about the tour first. Why have you decided, before we ask you about deciding to host it, why are you now taking it on the road?

Because books are all about inclusivity and they are empowering. And I've always found books the ultimate escapism and including people and particularly lonely people or people who are on their own to feel like they could come along to an event where they are part of something because they can talk to anyone, anyone who's around them, because everyone's there because they are empowered by stories. And you don't have to love books already.

You can want to read books or be led out into. And what we were told by viewers of Between the Covers series was that it wasn't long enough, that they wanted an expansion. So this is, it's an expansion. It's not like, my role's not going to be like a TV host. It really isn't. I'm an enabler and that's what I've always, always been. It doesn't matter in a way who is hosting

as long as they can help other people have their voices and help books be the stars and that's what I'm trying to do and that's what I've always tried to do so why did you decide well you are going to be hosting I love that you're going to be hosting you know you've got a plethora of presenters that you've worked with it's like I'm going to do this and you know you've worked in telly for a long long time very successful since 1984 that was my first job in telly did you always have 1984 what was it what was your first job um it was a kid's saturday morning show called saturday starship with bonnie langford and tommy boyd and i did make and do items and cookery items and things like that but i always wanted

to be a presenter and i was a presenter early on in my career but in those days um women were put more in boxes than they are now and I was always a producer as well and I get I got told in through the 90s which is when I was trying to be a presenter oh which one are you which one are you today are you a producer or are you a presenter because you couldn't be both but thankfully that is changing has changed and there's lots of women out there who have forged a route for other women to follow. Yeah, and you can have multiple careers. This idea that you can only be one thing doesn't exist. Well, you still have to fight, but it doesn't exist like it used to.

But now you're the boss, so you can do what you want. And so was it your idea to host, or did someone say, go on, Amanda, you do it? Well, it was for a lot of reasons, mainly because it's an extension of the show and I think what we're hoping for in the future that it will expand into some kind of festival so it's much more inclusive.

It was to do with practicality, it was to do with a lot of things and just my role in television is to help other people have voices and to give other people voices and that's what the stage is all about. And it's also when things were shaping up for the for the tour and financially it's difficult and practically it's difficult and people kept saying to me well why don't you host it because I I've done it before I've done I've done um festivals on stage and interviewed people on stage and things like that and then I thought oh why not because like Tracy age 61 because I'm the same age as Tracy who with her scuba diving I just thought do you know what if I don't use a platform or something to do something that I

actually want to do at this time of life it's going to be too late and why not and why not and why not and also it's going to be such a giggle because you're going to be on that stage with some great characters as well. Oh my goodness. I am so lucky that everyone I asked to do the tour, including incredible names like Joe Brand, Stephen Mang and Casey Ainsworth and some authors, Joseph O'Connor who wrote Star of the Sea, everyone said yes. And I had some brilliant other people in the background saying, oh yes, I'll do it, I'll do it. I'll do it if it goes next, if it goes again and if it goes next time. So I was very, very lucky.

But I've worked with lots of wonderful people like you over the years who know that I make people look and feel comfortable on television. It's what I've always done. But you also were the mastermind who came up with the idea of bringing books onto TV. And this was let's go back to when you first had the idea, when you were working on Richard and Judy. Well, my husband Simon and I ran a production company together and we did a show called Richard and Judy on Channel 4, which was five nights a week.

And that show ate content, absolutely ate content. Will watched it. Oh, thank you, thank you. It was best nine years, not the best nine years of my life, but it was a very, very positive nine years because we were able to give a lot of new people voices. We started off a lot of comedians and different people and different talents on that show. I've always looked as on books as entertainment because I grew up in Essex and quite a difficult childhood and had used books as escapism. So I always wanted to empower other people or to make people think that books could be interesting.

Of course, Oprah was on telly in the States doing it, but nobody was doing it in this country in a way that I thought was empowering. I thought it was all alienating because it was a lot of late night programmes with people round tables, highbrow wasn't highbrow literati and books are for everyone they're the ultimate escapism entertainment so i wanted to do it in a way that would empower more people or make people think that they could try books so we came up with a format, which was a book club format where we had people on telly talking about books that people could identify with.

And that's empowering rather than thinking, oh, that person's And oh, I care about what they think, which is why Jo Brand is so brilliant at it, because she's practically a national treasure now. And so every book that she recommends is powerful. But you were on between the covers as well. It's not about me today. No, you were fab, but you inspired people as well. Well, you know, with poetry, when you talk about something that you're passionate about, as you do, and that you are across all the books as well. You read them.

Yes. You are instrumental in which books go out there. And you have been responsible for people becoming bestsellers. So tell me about some of the names. People like Kate Moss, Victoria Hislop, David Nichols was on my very, very, very first list. Incredible. And he's now a massive star. Joseph O'Connor, who's coming on tour with me. Victoria Hislop, David Nichols was on my very, very, very first list. And he's now a massive star.

Joseph O'Connor, who's coming on tour with me. His book was the book that really proved that it worked. I have to say, though, I have the final say, so it's all my fault. But I have a brilliant, brilliant team. And I also have loads of readers and people out there that I think, oh, try this, try that. Do you like it? Because it has to speak to a lot of people yeah because my mantra with books has always been I don't want and I don't expect by any means anyone to think that every book we pick they're absolutely going to love but I want them

to get to the end of it and think ah I can see why that was a good idea to read it or that inspired me or led me out to read something else or I didn't waste my money or the space on my library ticket in the old days but now you can get 25 books in the library ticket which is brilliant so you mentioned there that before you bring you know sort of popularizing it the genre it was quite highbrow yes and critics were pretty snooty they weren't very nice to me either and and and then you know you proved you were very successful. So how did it feel when you were vindicated? Well, I mean, vindicated is interesting.

It was choosing people like David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas, which a lot of the critics said, what does she think she's doing? A daytime audience won't be able to cope with that or it's too much and that book went to number one it is one of the best selling books it's one of the best books ever written and who who is anybody to tell someone else you are oh that's not for you you can't read that that's not right that's that's not fair or right or funny or so um no that's what I hope we've smashed.

Where did your love of books come from? You said you had a difficult childhood. Yes. And books were your disappearing to. But who introduced you? What was the first book? I don't know what the first book was, but escapism with things that weren't like my life, like Enid Blyton and things like that.

But I very quickly got into classics and things like Little Women, which is, you know, if that book is completely empowering for women, but things like that. And then when I was about seven, my mum joined a book club for me. And at the time it was, we really, really had no money. And an exciting package would arrive once a month, which was a thick book that you could turn around and one side was one book and one side was another book. And one of the first ones I got was Black Beauty, One Side, and you turned it over and it was Call of the Wild. Two for the price of one.

No, two for the... Who wouldn't love that, eh? Who wouldn't love that? But that's what, I mean, what I'm hoping for about the stage show and going live is that people will see that books are fun, funny, entertaining. I've got amazing people on stage who are going to be speaking about it. But I want to encourage people who are out there who are lonely to come by themselves, because you've got an excuse to chat to someone because everyone there wants to join our fantasy book club. And what we've done with a group of people on stage

is we've assembled a great fantasy book club. And we want to know what other people think and feel. So come along by yourself. I love it. Sit there. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of going to theatre on my own. And then you can chat to people in the foyer

because you've got an excuse. You can think, oh, what did Casey Ainsworth's book? That's interesting. I like her. Maybe I'll try that or um joe brand yeah oh that's made me want to try reading that um i'm also interested because we've got you in the hot seat amanda and you you've said you're your age 61 you started out you know uh as a producer in tv hugely successful career i'm quite interested and you've said that you come from a very working class background. Yes, completely.

Unusual to have risen to the level that you've got to. So I'm just a bit about the path to success. I know it's a broad question. I didn't ever. I wanted to escape where I came from. And so very early in life, I learned that you just have to ask for what you want because otherwise you're not going to get anything. And so my mantra is ask for what you want because what is the worst thing that anyone can ever say to you? And that's no.

And what is no? It's a two-letter word. How bad is a two-letter word? So just ask. If someone says no, shrug it off because I was told I went for BBC trainees scheme very early on and I'd already been working in independent television for two years and I was at I got down to the last 130 and I was actually told by the selection person you're not going to get any further because you're the wrong sex the wrong you went to the

wrong schools and the wrong university and I just thought okay thanks well I'm I'm knocking on the wrong door then I'll rock rock on a different door and that was what was so empowering about starting our own production company and in my production company we've always I say our production company because my husband I really couldn't do it without him we're a proper partnership we've always championed women and we've always championed people from diverse backgrounds because we're both from extremely working class backgrounds we were both like plowing a new field that we didn't know people who went to university and we were the first people that we knew that went to university and things like that so 70% of the people that we

employ have always been women because women are brilliant at multitasking so they make brilliant brilliant producers and i've also always championed people from backgrounds who've knocked on doors and can't get in i've opened doors for them before now it's very fashionable for people to be told to do that we never need to be told to do that we've never need to be told to do that. We've always done it. Well, you've empowered all of us this morning, Amanda. Oh, thank you so much, Anita. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you.

Thank you. Enjoy the tour. Well, betweenthecoverslive.com. There you go, she's a pro. We start on Saturday in Richmond and then we're going to... Oxford, Nottingham, Birmingham, Reading, Brighton until the 7th of June. I'm so happy you read that because they were all not going to think. Let's hope they enjoy reading in Reading.

That's all I can say. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Anita. Thank you. My absolute pleasure, Amanda Ross. Empowering us to step out and do something maybe completely out of your comfort zone that you've never done before.

Loads of you getting in touch with stuff that you've done. Polly in Hampshire says, my best girlfriend and I are stepping out of our comfort zone tomorrow and doing the Blenheim, oh this is good, triathlon. Quite nerve-wracking, but it's been amazing to really challenge ourselves and we couldn't have done it without each other's support. Love that. Judy on the

island of Portland says, I just started a brand new career at the age of 66. Having been retired, self-employed for 11 years, I would never have believed I would be doing this in my 50s, let alone at my age. It just shows you you are never too old to start afresh,

learn a new skill and conquer new horizons. Oh, I'm feeling very emboldened this morning. 84844, please keep your texts coming through. Now to Gambia in West Africa, where a bill which would lift the ban on female genital mutilation has worked its way through Parliament, reaching the final stages. Considered by some to be a religious or cultural tradition, FGM can involve removing the clitoris and, in its most severe form, cutting and stitching the genitals so those who've been mutilated can't have or enjoy sex.

According to UNICEF, 73% of women and girls in Gambia have survived the procedure and the government could be set to make a decision by the end of the summer. So what sort of impact has this discussion had and what are the wider consequences for women in the UK and beyond? Fatou Balde is an activist and founder of Women in Liberation and Leadership, an organisation which works with communities in Gambia to counter FGM misinformation and to support survivors. She joins us now live from Gambia. Fatou, thank you for joining me. The FGM, let's sort of get some background on this. FGM was banned in Gambia in 2015. So tell us about why this is happening now,

this potential change in the law. Yeah, good morning and thank you so much for having me. Yes, in the Gambia, female genital mutilation was banned back in 2015. Unfortunately, we do know that even though the ban has already been established, there were still girls being caught on the ground. Last August, we had the fourth successful prosecution of three women who were caught cutting several girls. And this conviction resulted in a backlash where religious leaders saw what those women were doing as a religious obligation, a traditional and cultural obligation, and therefore called on the Gambian government to repeal the law of 2015. And since then, the National Assembly, that's the MP, had taken over the conversation and they've tabled a bill to amend the 2015 ban of female genital mutilation and to legalise the practice again in the

Gambia. So it was banned from 2015. Nobody said anything until these three women were convicted. Yes, right. What are your thoughts on that? I think for some people they thought that the law was just there as a decoration because we

didn't have any reaction towards the law until we had a conviction so once the conviction was recorded that's when we saw all this backlash against the law. The overhaul should have its final reading in the upcoming months.

Are you surprised by how quickly this has passed through? Surprised and not so much surprised. In fact, for many activists, we feared that the law, when it was tabled the first time, they would repeal the law because we know that FGM is very much supported at the community level. But we also know that our parliament is made up of a majority of men who actually support the continuation of the practice. So we were anxious, but luckily, civil society, survival-led organizations took over from the moment we saw this threat. And we've been advocating, lobbying National Assembly members.

So we've not stopped since then. And I think without the proactive engagement of civil society and women-led organisations, this bill would have happened a long time ago. You've been giving evidence to Parliament yourself in Gambia. What's the reaction been like from politicians? Yes, I think often for decades, one of the things that we've had in the Gambia is the denial that female genital mutilation does affect women and girls. Unfortunately, the way that FGM is perpetuated, women are also

silenced not to share how FGM impacts them. So because of that, women have been very silent. There is a big taboo around female genital mutilation. So this is why it's so important that survivors like myself were able to go to the parliament and share our experience of how female genital mutilation affects women, both at the personal level, but also because we work with other survivors and we've seen firsthand evidence as to how FGM affects people. We brought women from the communities from different generations who were able to give evidence at the parliament. We saw that for so many parliamentarians, they were moved by having that firsthand narrative

and lived experiences of women. Because what we find that some of these men, they actually have no idea how FGM women. So having women sitting there and sharing the horror was painful, but also it was worth it. I mean, as you mentioned yourself, you are a survivor of FGM. Would you mind telling us a bit about your story?

And I'm intrigued when I realized that it wasn't until much later in life that you realized that you'd undergone FGM yourself. Is that right? Yes. Yes. So I was eight years old when I underwent female genital mutilation. And I still remember the day because I was eight. And for me, the whole practice is not just the cutting itself, it's the fact that I was made so excited. I was told it's a day that I was going to be very special.

I had new outfits. I had my hair braided. I saw female members of my family. And then the next minute, I was blindfolded and pinned down on the floor by a group of women and my genitals were cut. So that's not just the pain, but also the betrayal. And I also say to people that when you pick an eight-year-old girl and pin her down on a dirty floor and cut the most intimate part of her body, you are telling her that is what she's worth. You are telling her her body is meant to be violated. And this is why we see that many women like myself, when we grow up, when women start then experiencing other forms of violence, you are reminded that you are supposed to

be silent because when you were eight or even younger, people who were close to you violated your body, tricked you and violated your body, people closest to you, and you were told to be silent about that. So those consequences continue to affect you, affect you in your future relationship with others affects your mental health but obviously as you would imagine for for such thing to happen to a young girl you continue to live with different health complications and once once that violation is done on you you you you can't move away from those complications and when did you realize this fatu when did you realize this Fatou? When did you have the awakening that this was done to you? Yes so for me actually growing up everybody I knew had female genital mutilation done to them

so I it was the norm for me I grew up in a household where everybody I knew had undergone female genital mutilation but it was until when I went to do my master's, actually, I did my master's in Edinburgh, Queen Margaret University. And on one of the modules, we were looking at violence against women. And the lecturer started talking about this practice called female genital mutilation. And I remember sitting in the class and thinking,

this thing happened to me, but it's not mutilation. What happened to me was like culture like tradition and I think that was the first time I had someone else give me a different perspective of what female genital mutilation means and what it does to women and I think for me that also informs my work today this is why I feel it's so important for young girls to be educated about their bodies and how FGM affects them. Because for me, it was through that education that really opened my eyes and turned my work to the activism that I do. Yeah, and very, very important work. And when I was reading your story, that really struck me because it made me think about how deeply rooted and how conditioned everyone is to how this is normalized.

And I wonder what the conversations are with other women and young women when you are going out and about doing the work. What are the conversations happening between women? Yeah. And how hard it is to change. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry. So for a very long time, as I said, for us, when we are caught, we are told not to speak

about what happened to us. So women never really share their experiences. In fact, women are shamed if they ever sit down to talk about FGM or how it affects them. So some of the things that we are doing, we are breaking that culture of silence and that bubble around female genital mutilation, where we create safe spaces for young women, but also for older women. Because what you tend to find in communities where so many women are caught, even though they would be experiencing problems as a result of female genital mutilation, but because so many women are having those same issues they tend to think that this is

as a result of being a woman rather than it's because of FDM so when we engage communities we bring medical professionals who are able to interpret this relationship as to you are experiencing this as a woman because of what happened to you as a child, because your stitch clothes or because your labias were removed or because, you know, they are able to also bring out how this affects women when they are pregnant or giving birth. So we are able to send that message out there. We also use the same opportunity to bring religious leaders, as you may be aware, in the Gambia. The misconception is that FGM is a requirement of Islam. So when we engage communities, we also bring these people so that they can talk to the communities and demystify those myths.

I mean, you mentioned at the beginning that religious leaders have played a big role in this debate, but there's also this idea of Western influence on Gambian politics. Is that something that you hear a lot about? Absolutely. Especially people like me who have been educated, for example, in the UK and come back, we often get that. But I see that as an attack and a way to silence activists and women's rights defenders, because we don't see that same narrative being pulled on other people doing other work. Why is that being said to us? Because we are challenging gender norms. We are challenging traditions. That's why Gambia is not an island. We are part of the international community and our government, our country needs to be held accountable for putting young girls through this harmful traditional practice in the name of religion. Yeah, you mentioned it's international. Well, FGM has been illegal here in the UK since 1985 and yet there's only ever

been two convictions. The most recent was in February of this year. Why is it so hard to convict? Yes, I think for communities that practice FGM, just like in the Gambia, it's on the ground when families return their daughters back home. And I think this is why this whole issue in the Gambia should be a problem for the international community, especially the UK, because we have a huge Gambian population. And we know that when families return home, they are usually pressured, especially in the summer, they are pressured to cut their girls in the summer, in the Christmas holidays when families return home. I have had even here in the Gambia, many women who are on holidays from the UK contact me, even when the law was already here, that their families are under threat. Their

families are pressuring them to cut their daughters. So we are already having that with the law. Can you imagine what would happen if that law is repealed? And I think the reason that, for example, in the UK, it's difficult to convict is that when families, what structures are put in place to make sure that families are monitored when they return home? Because I know that for those young girls who may be at risk or who may be caught while on holidays, they are also silenced. The same way I was silenced not to speak about what happened to me. And Fatah, you've spoken, filled us in on all of it, but also you spoke very openly about your own experience. I just wonder how you are. It's been, and this is not just me, I speak to a lot of other survivors. It's very re-triggering for us. And, you know, also that we have come a long way fighting this practice for decades and all our efforts are being rolled back. But also the most painful thing is to hear

how men continue to trivialize female genital mutilation. One member of parliament said to me that, why are you making a fuss about this? This is like clipping a nail from your finger. You don't even feel the cut. A nail has no nerve, what we are doing. So those are the kind of sentiments as a survivor. To hear a man who will never know what it feels like to live as a woman who's experienced FGM, having those comments about what happened to me is painful.

Well, Fatou, we appreciate you taking the time to speak to us this morning. That's Fatou Balde talking to us from Gambia. Thank you, Fatou. Lots of you getting in touch with the moments where you've stepped out to do something a bit different. Joa said, I was widowed seven years ago. I'm now 61 with a new partner, soon to be husband. We met at a salsa club new to me and

him and since then have backpacked in Sri Lanka and spent three weeks in Vietnam where I learned to ride a motorbike I always want to challenge myself by going way out of my comfort zone and it's never disappointed now on to my next guest on Monday I was lucky enough to have it's fair to say a rather transcendent musical experience, going to see Gawali performed at the Royal Albert Hall. Now, the Desis among you might know what Gawali is. It's Sufi devotional music, popular all over South Asia, and it's typically performed by men. But what made the Royal Albert Hall show extra special was that it was the first time a British woman was singing Gawali on that stage.

The singer is the spectacular Abhi Sampa. Abhi and her partner, Rushil Ranjan, are the co-founders of the orchestral Gavali project, and I'm delighted to say that Abhi is in the Woman's Hour studio. Lovely to see you. Congratulations. Monday was... Well, you explain.

What was Monday like for you, singing and performing to a sold-out Royal Albert Hall? Oh, well, you explain. What was Monday like for you, singing and performing to a sold-out Royal Albert Hall? Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for coming, Anita. It was... I still don't know what it was like, if I'm being honest. I'm still recovering and still processing it all. It was just wonderful, but I don't think I've still quite processed um what it was and what it meant to me it's just so big yeah it was huge I mean it was remarkable and like it was spine tingling you're the first woman to perform qawwali at the Royal Albert Hall I know the first

woman was back in the 70s was uh Indian uh singer Laksh Shankar, sister-in-law of Ravi Shankar, and then the legendary Pakistani singer Abda Parveen, who performed last in 2006, almost 20 years ago. These women are giants of South Asian music. And now you are added to that list. Oh, gosh. I know, it's a moment. It really is. Yes, I cannot believe it happened i still i still haven't processed like i said and i i i keep saying to ruchelle um who are these people

who bought the tickets i don't quite understand you said that on stage actually and i thought that was incredibly sweet i mean we've been following your career for quite a while in fact you were on woman's hour three years ago and a lot's happened since then in fact there was a moment that happened after that being on this program literally precisely after that um we had the Celtic Connections Festival um contact us and that was the first time we'd been asked to play with an orchestra so I was saying um literally a week or so before I came on that show, my now husband, Rochelle, and I were speaking about how we'd love to play with orchestras, but we just were completely independent and still are.

And we didn't know how we would afford to do that or how we would have the opportunity to do that. We came on to your show and then they heard our music being played. And a week or so later, we were contacted and said, said oh would you like to come and play at the festival and we have the Scottish Chamber Orchestra playing at that show would you like to play with them and we were just completely dumbfounded we didn't didn't know but the universe literally manifested it for us. I mean it's pure it's pure magic what you create is pure magic. I think we need to explain a little bit more about Cavalli for people listening. What is Cavalli and why is it that women don't typically sing it? Just give us some context.

I mean, I'm not sure I would be able to delve into the history of why women don't sing it or do it enough justice. But it is that there are more male singers who have sung it historically. But it is devotional singing where the lead singer will sing a line and then you have a chorus singer singing it back to them. It is very similar to something that we have, which is also called budgins, which is something I grew up doing when I was younger, which again is a lead singer singing a line of devotional music and then a chorus singing it back to you a lot of clapping um rhythmic clapping and um so it's the repetition of lines and that

causes that sort of trance feeling and you know hypnotic feeling about the music but what we've done is now fused it with orchestral music and my husband, Rushal Ranjan. It was actually his idea to bring this whole thing together. We met because I loved Qawwali and he invited me to sing at something and he was doing. And then, yeah, we fused together. And you bonded over your love of Qawwali. Yes. So no one's really done this.

No one's connected the dots between Qawwali, this North Indian Sufi traditions of singing and Western orchestras? And a choir. And a choir, yes. I think the choir is definitely first. I know that there have been other performances with Qawwali and orchestra in the past, but I think we're the first group that does it as this is our sound.

I mean, Qawwali, as you've explained, it's rooted in mystical Sufi Islam, originates in the north of the Indian subcontinent, originally sung in Urdu or Punjabi. You come from a Tamil Sri Lankan family, the other end of the country, completely different background, different language. As a non-Urdu Punjabi speaker, how do you navigate singing in a different language and singing so, I mean, how did you go about it singing so magnificently thank you um I suppose being born in London um meant that I was exposed to all sorts of languages from the get-go and because English I mean Tamil you would say is my mother tongue but really I was born in London so English is my is my mother tongue

here um so already Tamil learning learning a different language was something that I was always balancing so I guess that made it easy for me to also then you know start singing in Hindi and Punjabi and I had a lot of Punjabi Gujarati friends growing up and I suppose all of that has just given me given me the ability to do so yeah when I think about you Abby I think about the moment you met Rushal and sometimes And I suppose all of that has just given me the ability to do so. When I think about you, Abby, I think about the moment you met Rushall. And sometimes there's things that happen in people's lives. I mean, we just had Amanda Ross on talking about running a company with her husband. And it was their connection coming together.

It feels like the two of you were meant to meet to create this incredible art that I experienced on Monday sorry if I keep going on about it it's all over my Instagram because it really was I've never seen anything like it um and congratulations on getting married by the way thank you but what is the process between the two of you how do you work together because I mean he's completely self-taught not that it's about him it's about you today. I mean, he is an absolute magician. I cannot explain how he does what he does. I mean, but yes, we come together, we play music together. And then he will go away and just dream up this complete whirlwind of a piece to go with what I'm doing.

But yes, I've never had anything like I've never I've worked with so many producers in the past and no one quite knew what to do with my huge screaming vocals very powerful yeah and such a range but also you sing everything yes you can do all all over the world wherever you want to go put a pin in a country and you'll sing the style style that's interesting people didn't know and that how frustrating was that people not knowing to do what to do with your talent yeah I think I was always being squeezed into a box to do something that worked with I don't think anyone really understood what to do with um what I could do or what I could bring to the table and Ruchel was the first one to listen to it and think okay I think this is what he thought

well you know what you're really powerful so what we'll do is put you with an orchestra and that could work so um yeah i'm just put you with an orchestra singing front and center in a packed royal albert hall can you take us into that moment what did that feel like honestly i didn't realize how many people were there I'm looking back at the photos now I was just messaging my sister-in-law this morning as we were looking at a picture of the hall and I I said I I didn't realize there were that many people there and then at the end they were all on their feet clapping and and weeping clapping and weeping um because you gave us a lot of energy did you feel the energy coming back I just you know it's not often you get to chat to people who've had that energy did you feel the energy coming back i just you know it's

not it's not often you get to chat to people who've had that experience did you feel it was yeah i mean i mean every performance but especially that performance when i was backstage after the show people came and spoke to me and said well how did you feel doing that and honestly i can say that i didn't feel like it was me um and I always do feel that with this music and because it is spiritual music I can't take I can't take um responsibility for that I think there's something there's a higher higher power um that I cannot explain when when we do this music now Abby because of course you are a British born south good South Asian girl uh you are also a dentist uh is it time to put down the drill are your dentist days over my boss came to the show and she did say what are you doing still

coming in for work i had i actually left saying i don't think she's gonna have to go be a dentist anymore i think i was singing to the oh thank you we juggle it all because that's what we do don't we but I love every aspect of my life and I'm so grateful for everything that I can do so you know what will be will be yeah and what I'd like to know is do you sing whilst you're drilling do you tune some patients do ask me to do that but It might ease the pain if you were singing, distracted from the surgery or whatever you're having done. I have to say that the other thing I saw was watching the both of you on stage and the look of love on your faces.

What's it like to share a stage with your husband? Just magical. I feel like the luckiest woman alive when we get to do that. So I always feel like the luckiest woman alive. we get to do that so I always feel like the luckiest woman alive he's just he is just amazing oh and he was saying very incredible things about her as well um new album coming up yes we do have a new album coming out very soon in the next couple of months we're going to post on our social soon um we're releasing vinyls but it will also be available um for streaming so please keep an eye on our socials and we will be announcing that very soon. World tour next?

Yes, hopefully. Yes, it's all happening. Abhi Sampath, it's an absolute joy. Thank you. Keep rising. Keep singing, please, because it's magnificent. Thank you. Thank you.

And I don't think she's going to be a dancer so much longer, unless she wants to do it. I mean, why not? Women can do it all, as we've been discussing. Lots of you are getting in touch on social, telling me about the moments where you've stepped out to do something very different. Helen in Bristol says, having moved to a new city in my 60s, which coincided with a series of personal losses, I entered a dark time in my life. I turned to writing and wrote a poem, which I finally performed at an open mic event. It was such a freeing and powerful experience which I would never have imagined

I had the confidence to do years earlier. I thoroughly recommend it. And also Diana from West Yorkshire says, last summer, age 61, I went to a festival for the first time and I went on my own on public transport with a little tent, camping stove and had a ball. Loved the endless choice of food, music and talks

and things to do. Although I slept perhaps four hours in every 24, I will be going again. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, Britain's biggest paranormal podcast

is going on a road trip. I thought in that moment, oh my God, we've summoned something from this board. This is Uncanny USA. He says, somebody's in the house, and I screamed. Listen to Uncanny USA on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. If you dare. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.