Woman's Hour - Trust in the Police? Have you say and call Nuala McGovern at Woman's Hour

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

On a special phone in edition of Woman's Hour we look at trust in the police following the review by Baroness Casey into a toxic culture at the Met Police. She found the 'the force has lost the trust and confidence of the people it is supposed to keep safe' and gave shocking examples of sexism, racism and homophobia. The report was commissioned in the aftermath of the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by PC Wayne Couzens, who has been sentenced to life imprisonment. Since then, we’ve also had the sentencing of former police officer David Carrick, who pleaded guilty to 85 serious offences, including rapes, sexual assaults, false imprisonment, and coercive and controlling behaviour. He is now serving time in jail, for a minimum of 32 years. We want to hear your views - do you trust the police? Would you think twice about asking for help as a woman of colour or if you'd been sexually assaulted? Call Nuala McGovern to have your say on 03700 100 444. Lines open at 0830 Wednesday.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Mangaer: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and on a special phone-in edition of Woman's Hour today, we're looking at trust in the police. That is following the review by Baroness Casey into a toxic culture at the Metropolitan Police. She found that the force had lost the trust and confidence of the people it is supposed to keep safe and gave shocking examples of sexism, racism and homophobia.

The report was commissioned in the aftermath of the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by PC Wayne Cousins, who has been sentenced to life in prison. Since then, we've also had the sentencing of former police officer David Carrick, who pleaded guilty to 85 serious offences, including rapes, sexual assaults, false imprisonment and coercive and controlling behaviour. He's now serving time in jail for a minimum of 32 years. And public trust in the police

is the key issue we are getting at here. It is going down from 89% in 2016 to 66% in March last year. And maybe that resonates with how you feel. Or maybe you think problems are being exaggerated. Well, whatever it is, we want to hear your views. Do you trust the police? Would you think twice about asking for help? And I'd like to know, what about as a woman of colour? Or perhaps if you've been sexually assaulted? Or maybe work in a police force, or a loved one does? Many say these issues also go beyond the Metropolitan Police.

Do call us 03700 100 444. The lines are now open. Some of you have already been texting the programme. That number is 84844. The lines are now open. Some of you have already been texting the programme. That number is 84844 or on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed you can email us through our website. But we are for the coming hour opening

the phone line so we'd love to hear your voice 03 700 100 444. Please do get in touch. If you were with me yesterday, you'll know that we spoke to the Deputy Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. That's Dame Lynn Owens for her reaction

to the Casey review. I want to bring you a little of what she said. And Dame Lynn mentions Claire. That's Claire Waxman, the London Victims Commissioner. Victims of crime could not be more important to the Metropolitan Police Service. We know there are things that we need to get to them quickly. We need to keep them updated with information

and we need to be alongside them in supporting them for all cases, particularly serious sexual offences and violence. And as we build on the findings from this report, making sure that we are working with Claire and her teams on what that must look like in London is from is where we will build victims confidence. I suppose the question people will be asking particularly as we detail whether it's Cousins or Carrick how many more killers or rapists are there in the Met? That's a question the commission has been asked a couple of times today. I sincerely hope none. And we are working very hard to look back over the recruiting,

the employment, the vetting history of all of our officers so we can start to give with much more firm assertion our absolute confidence about the people we have employed. It's dreadful, isn't it? As your Deputy Commissioner for London, I cannot sit here today and give you 100% reassurance that's where we want to get to. But we need to do a whole load of work because we learned lots of stuff through the truly awful Carrick case about how we hadn't joined the dots of offending in history.

We need to go through that work so that I can give you the assurance you want. That is Dame Lynn Owen speaking to me yesterday. You can hear the whole of that interview on BBC Sounds. But let's talk to BBC Newsnight's home editor, Seema Kotecha, who has been following this story carefully. You're very welcome, Seema, to the programme. How would you describe the fallout 24 hours on?

Gosh, well, Nuala, I think people are still taking in this ferocious report. I mean, as a journalist who's been covering the Metropolitan Police for the last couple of years, there was an expectation that this report was going to be bad. And being in a room full of journalists during the lock in, we saw the report 24 hours before it was released to the public. I think many journalists felt the same, but we did not expect it to be this scathing. I mean, as you said in your intro, homophobic, institutionally homophobic, institutionally sexist, institutionally racist, 24 years after that McPherson report that was ordered after the murder of Stephen Lawrence. I think people are still digesting the recommendations, they're still digesting the content. Every page there is an alarming finding, an alarming anecdote from some of those who are still serving in the Metropolitan

Police. I mean, I can give you a few examples of the stories that I've heard over the last few months alone from serving police officers and a warning to our listeners that some of what I'm about to say is very disturbing. I was speaking to a black officer who told me that in recent months he was called a monkey and a banana was left on his chair. I was speaking to a South Asian officer who told me that he was told he looked filthy and needed a good scrub, that he was told that he smelt of curry. And when he actually raised this with the higher echelons of the organisation,

he was told that it was just banter, that it was just a joke. Again, this has come out in the Casey report that complaints about racism, complaints about discrimination have not been taken seriously enough. And then to tell you an anecdote from a woman that I think will stay with me forever, a woman who has been serving in the Metropolitan Police for years, she said that she was told by a male officer that she was good enough to rape, but not good enough to be in a relationship with because she looked dirty. She looked like that kind of woman. And when you hear these anecdotes, and you hear them time and time again, like I have done over the last couple of years, you think these are the men and women who are supposed to keep the millions of Londoners safe. And there is such a deeply embedded culture of discrimination. if you like, for people who are trying to be good

in terms of the Metropolitan Police, trying to do something noble, for them it's gut-wrenching to hear that these stories are coming out. And so it is inside the force, it is outside the force, as you have detailed, as has the Casey review. We are getting people's stories this morning, very much focusing for our listeners on, do you trust the police?

What would it take to restore that trust? There were some potential solutions outlined by Baroness Casey yesterday, but I want to hear yours. 03700 100 444 is our number. And I just want to read a comment that came in, Seema, as you mentioned that word institutional. The police are institutionally corrupt, racist, sexist and homophobic. I don't understand how Sir Mark Rowley is allowed to not

recognise that fact in his choice of words because he wouldn't go with institutional even when it had been stated as such in the Casey report. It demonstrates how they are only looking at changing certain apparent behaviours, not actually changing the toxic culture. It demonstrates how they are only looking at changing certain apparent behaviours, not actually changing the toxic culture. There is a difference behind closed doors.

The ingrained attitudes remain. So do get in touch, particularly on how you think they can change that culture. I'd love to hear from you. Seema's going to stay with us for the hour, which is great. And we're going to talk about

some of these particular aspects that were mentioned in the review. But I do want to turn to Alice who has got in touch with Woman's Hour. You're very welcome. Tell me your story and whether you trust the police. Good morning.

Yeah, I don't trust the police anymore and I withdraw my consent. I understand that as a public we're policed by our consent and that's because we trust that they're going to be fair, be diligent, follow due process. And I think that's just been proven that that is not the case in the police. And I don't trust them anymore and I'd never rely on them for support or help to resolve a problem. And why is that, Alice? Is it because of this report specifically or any other interactions

that you've had? The misogyny over the years has been apparent. The things that have happened in the last couple of years, the very high profile cases that have reaffirmed my thoughts and feelings about how the police deal with the public. And there was an incident where I needed the police to come and help my family. We were in the middle of a big family row and teenage daughters and it was in the middle of lockdown. There was a lot of stress. And my teenage daughters flew up my partner and pushed him.

And I said, I'm in the middle of you. I need help. I need to call the police just to bring someone to come and help the family, bring us into a bit of calm and snap us out of it. And they turned up and she ran out the door. She ran off. And they said it was good because if she had come back, they'd arrest her for assault.

And I just thought, this is not the sort of help we need. We need somebody to sort of understand family dynamics here and bring a bit of calm and not escalate and criminalise a child in the middle of a very tense kind of family altercation So I understand that Alice I'm wondering what would you do if you found

yourself in a similar situation again? I wouldn't call the police. I'd either try and deal with it myself or I'd get friends and neighbours. And do you have any idea of what could change that culture that you feel you butted up against? It's just a whole lot worse than I actually feared. Sarah Everard and the Carrick, and I understand that as the police, I think it's a good idea that they're reviewing every single member of the police force

and their recruitment kind of processes because I think there's more and more cases coming out. But I think that it's it's too drip drip for there to be any restoration in confidence immediately and I think that there needs to be something big that the police do in terms of I mean in local authorities when they when they want to change contracts they everybody gets made to reapply for their jobs and they change the kind of recruitment process and they have, I think,

that there should be public members, you know, community leaders on recruitment panels. It's such an interesting thought to get people to reapply for their jobs. I hadn't heard that before us, but I understand where you're going with that, like kind of a radical... No, the authority workers do it all the time.

We're constantly going through restructures and reorganisations where our contracts are changed or our jobs are slightly stupid with and then we have to reapply for our jobs and go through that competitive tendering and I think all of those background checks need to be done before people are recruited. So the vetting aspect as well,

which of course has come on... I cannot believe it's not been done before. I think that the majority of public assumed that that kind of in-depth vetting was already being done and I'm shocked. The police, I mean everybody else seems to be held to a higher standard of conduct in their workplace

than the police. And they would say that they are going back over it now, if I've understood Dame Lynn correctly yesterday, but I totally take your point. That's Alice starting us off. I do want to just read another WhatsApp that came in, anonymous, just coming to me really when I'm listening to Alice's story.

I was a known victim of domestic abuse to the police. I called them one evening when my husband kicked off. Two young policemen came, spent a huge amount of time being lads with my husband, talking about hysterical women of a certain age and laughing. Then they insisted I left my house because he refused to go. I left the house with a plastic bag of belongings in front of my four kids. I sat in the police car and said that wasn't right. I was in danger. One of them replied I shouldn't have then called the police. I was dropped off

outside my friend's house. They didn't check if she was in and then they returned to my husband. He then changed the locks to our jointly owned property and I had to sofa surf for six months. I complained to the police. I was interviewed by two patronising males even though I asked for female officers. The complaint was lost.

I will never call the police again. And you can understand why that reminded me of Alice's call there as well. I want to go to Anna next, who's joining us. Hello, Anna. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Where would you say you stand when you think about trust in the police? Well, I feel a bit of a fraud myself hearing that very upsetting WhatsApp message that you got, because my experience is really quite mild i suppose and i phoned up because

i felt that probably a lot of us are fortunate enough to have had a you know relatively undramatic existence and our interactions with the police aren't sort of uh as uh horrible as as your previous um caller and whatsapp messenger um so I thought that I perhaps represented more an ordinary woman's experience. The background is that I live in a city which has had a very major grooming scandal, a child grooming scandal. And the PCC here actually pointed to truancy as being one of the major contributing factors, because obviously children were sort of wandering about and were vulnerable to all sorts of exploitation. Now, I happened to be in the city centre one, it's about a year ago now, and I saw two unaccompanied small boys, small in stature and age. I would say they were about 10 to 12 years old. And they were just, I could see that they were just at a loose end and were not, you know,

I could see that they should be at school and were out and about for unexplained reasons. And there happened to be two officers in a a police car very nearby so i approached them they had their window down and i said oh i've just seen two children who look as though they should be at school and i'm a bit worried about them they didn't it was like sort of addressing two bad cops in a film or something they just just stared in front of them. They didn't look at me. They just said, the one I was talking to said, I didn't see any children. And I said, they're just over

there. They're just over there. If you just turn around, you'll see them. And he said, oh, well, they were with a woman. And I said, no, they really weren't. They were on their own. So I think, Anna, you felt you weren't being listened to. I definitely wasn't being listened to. And I was also being treated with sort of contempt, as though I was raising a matter that was absolutely beneath their notice. And this was,

as I say, you know, following all this grooming scandal. I understand. I just felt very dismissed. And after that, I thought, you know, if they're not listening to a lone woman about children, I'm not going to recommend to my children if they ever get lost to go and talk to a police officer, which I'd always done up until that point. I understand. I always thought they were good. Anna, thank you for your call. I want to read some of the other comments that are coming in at the moment. As a woman of colour, I would think twice approaching the police for help and would be very afraid

if I were approached by them for any reason. I was once picked out of a crowd leaving a Thames clipper boat at Greenwich Pier for a stop and search. I was the only person of colour in the crowd.

I did ask the officer why I was stopped. He dismissed me and went on with the questions. I was late for a class at the university and pleaded with him to let me go.

He reluctantly did. I never forgot it and it has left a bad taste in my mouth ever since. Here's Carol. She says, who is surprised at the results of this report? Certainly not me as a black woman. Racism is everywhere. Sexism is everywhere. Why would anyone expect the police force to be any different?

I mean, very stark words there from Carol. 03700100444. Today we're asking, do you trust the police in light of the Casey review? What would it take to restore that trust? I want to turn to Tristan next, who's got in touch with us on Women's Hour. Tristan, welcome to the programme. What do you think about what you're hearing? Oh, hi, Nuala.ula uh yeah very interesting and the last one the lady the black lady who just said um that racism is everywhere in society and sexism and and that that is partly why i emailed in this morning um it's because it's very true and i

don't understand how you expect to eliminate that in in the police force if you can't eliminate it in society i suppose people do go through a process though tristan and this comes to the you know the vetting process for example that you'd expect when there's recruitment as well that there would be some sort of deeper look into exactly who are the people that are being trusted to police the community. And particularly, as we found yesterday in the firearms department that seemed to have a particular problem, a dark part of the Met, as Baroness Casey described it. I think you might have a point in terms of doing that more now than in the last, say, couple of decades, because you've got far more

ways of surveilling your own police officers and vetting people over years and years of uh social media or what they're viewing when you're going through the vetting process that's fine but there's a couple of things i want to say about you know alice who phoned up earlier yeah about an argument with the family member her husband and her daughter um i'm not sure if that was necessarily a police issue um i know that the police went there and they said they would have arrested the daughter if she was there but that's kind of what they're there to do because if you are going to phone up about a domestic and i mean that in in the nicest possible sense if you are going to phone up about a domestic, like an

argument, you're expecting the police to come round to resolve it and maybe the arrest, the perpetrator. But I suppose the difference is the resolve and arrest. I don't think she was looking for an arrest or to press charges. She was looking for an arbiter, like an independent

person to come in and calm down the situation, as I understood it. Yeah, yeah, but that's fine. Is that the policeiter, like an independent person to come in and calm down the situation as I understood it. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. But is that the police's, like, the really main thing for the police to do? I don't see that as, that maybe is a separate organisation. The problem is the police get asked to do too much now. They're asked to be mental health officers. They're asked to be, you know, protected in society and protect us from terrorists,

et cetera, et cetera, and every single threat in society. And if you're going to do that, you need to have specialists to be able to do that. You can't ask a PC on the street to be able to be a mental health practitioner

and to chase a man down the street for several miles. So Tristan, let me turn to, I understand what you're saying and it is the most difficult job, absolutely. I think that's one thing that people can agree on. Is there a solution, do you think, because I'm sure you've seen the Casey review

and some of the aspects that came up in that, what would you be pushing for? Is it breaking up an organisation that's so giant? Is it restricting the roles that a police officer is supposed to take on? I would, honestly, I don't think there's a chance you're ever going to change the policing culture unless you change society as a whole. And as long as society has an issue with racism, sexism, homophobia, and there always will be something like that, I think you'll really struggle to whittle out everyone. So what you have to understand is that every

organisation, be it Oxfam a few years ago with the whole Haiti thing, be it the police and all that they've got to do with, that every organisation, if you look deep enough or hard enough, you'll find people who are doing wrong things. It's just, I'm not saying it's acceptable, Nuala.

I really am not saying acceptable. But I'm saying is the thing is, if you read the report a little bit more, it does actually give positives in terms of what good the police do. But the saddest thing is that will never get shown because all this is is bashing police. Well, to be I'm not a policeman. Yeah, no, I understand, Tristan. And I do want to also bring in some of the comments because what I'm doing, I'm putting it out there to people. Do they trust the police

and what will it take to restore trust? And I'm talking about the Metropolitan Police, but actually it goes further than this, I can see from my listeners who are getting in touch. I want to thank you for your call, Tristan. I think you're saying not acceptable, but understandable, if I have heard you correctly. I do see some other comments. This is Christina saying, I trust the police.

I've been working with so many in our communities and witness the brilliant work that they do. I want to bring in Annette. Annette, good to have you with us on Woman's Hour. Do you trust the police yes i do trust the police and i don't dispute or disagree with or denigrate anything in that appalling report on the police but all the experiences experiences of women in particular with various officers but i do think it's unfortunate that there's so few people praising the vast majority of dedicated hard-working honest police officers who go out every day to do the job they chose to do which is help and protect all of us and who increasingly receive the most appalling physical and verbal abuse because they're just seen as being corrupt and dishonest and dreadful. So maybe with this review, though, if there is radical, some people call it root and branch reform, it could create a better culture for everyone who works there? I think so, because I know, and I have a good friend in the police, and I know from what I hear that it's not easy for some police officers if you don't fit into a particular clique or group.

You're made to feel that life will be difficult for you. And that's not a pleasant way to work. And I think that's what particularly the Casey Review is trying to get at. You called it a boys club. Thank you, Annette. I don't think it's just boys. You don't think it's just boys. Well, I think we've heard...

It's not just men who behave like that. It's what I understand. And obviously, I only we've heard... It's not just men who behave like that. It's what I understand and obviously I only have one sort of contact. I have heard that, Annette, that there was a higher drive, of course, to recruit women, but the message was pretty loud and clear. This was coming from Peter Fahey

on Women's Hour last week, that the culture remained the same, so the women had to slip into that culture to fit in or leave, to put it in more polite terms than people often do. Annette, thank you for your call. Jill got in touch. She says, my daughter joined the Met three years ago to be useful for society, and she puts her life at potential risk every time she goes to work. She's out there every day trying to make our streets safe.

She did go through a rigorous selection process before starting. I'm not saying there are no problems, of course. Just please remember there are good people in the police. We're asking, do you trust the police? What would you do and what do you think it would take to restore trust? 03 700 100 444. So good to meet our listeners today on Women's Hour

to hear their voices on the programme. Let me turn to Jack next. Jack, good to have you with us. Let our listeners know a little bit about your experience. Hi, Nuala. Thanks for having me on. So I served in a police force for well over a decade. That's how I worked in a number of roles from, you know, uniformed kind of response policing, what we normally see on the streets, to kind of non-uniform community safety things and things between.

I, truthfully, I'm not I'm saddened, massively so, and it's heartbreaking hearing some of the experiences that your previous callers have had. I'm not surprised, however, in any way, shape or form. I left the service after having become a whistleblower against a somewhat senior officer for a number of kind of really serious sexual conduct allegations and things like that.

At last count, there were over 27 statements provided against this individual who remained serving to this day. And why is that, if I can ask, without getting into any identifying details, of course, but were your allegations not taken seriously? Initially, no. I initially approached a more senior officer to hear, to raise my concerns,

and they were effectively brushed off. And it was only when I kind of went back to that senior officer, as in a more senior officer than the alleged guy, with a witness, a police witness, saying either this is taken seriously by yourself or I'll go directly to professional standards, so the Internal Affairs Department effectively put the force,

that something was done, and that something was to collate evidence and then to this day, by all accounts, do absolutely nothing about it. I wish I had an answer as to why. And again, I don't wish to focus entirely on this one individual, but I don't have an answer as to why this happens. The reason it's important is because of a pattern that Baroness Casey said she found.

I was looking at the number of complaints, for example, that there were. It was in the year to March 2022, 87,786 complaints against police officers. But the issue that many have had that was highlighted by the review is that they were not followed up on or that people continued to serve, even though they had been accused of at times very serious offences. And they are promising that that will be different and that they will join the dots as a solution. Dame Lynn Owens was talking about that yesterday. I mean, what do you see, Jack, as the solution to not having people serve that don't deserve to? Well, it's quite simple. They need to be ousted. And there is a process for that.

You know, we heard these same kind of soundbites after the McPherson review, nearly 25, in fact, over 25 years ago. You know, the only force I'm aware of that's made recent branch reformers work, and again, I haven't worked on that force, is what's now the PSNI, which is the RUC,

following the pattern reviews. And very simply put, what needs to happen is a complete, utter rip apart and rebuild of the service, because the real tragedy in this is twofold. There are, and I still have a number of really, really close friends and close acquaintances in various forces. The vast, vast majority of police officers on the ground that want to do the real work are absolutely dedicated and fantastic.

There are, however, a number of bad actors. And the culture at the moment allows those bad actors to continue unhinged because nothing is done about it. But let me jump in there for a moment, Jack, because you say a number of bad actors. But what I understood from the review yesterday, reading about it, it's not about a few bad apples, it's institutional.

You're entirely right, I completely agree with you. You look at people like Cousins, etc. They are the, in inverted commas, not even in inverted commas, they are the bad actors. The problem is those that aren't bad actors, those that are institutionalised,

i.e. those that work in the organisations, don't do enough to root out those bad actors. So, you know, those that do, like myself, I became a whistleblower, my career took a downward trajectory after that, very much so, for no good reason. And those that do speak up and those that do say, no, this isn't good enough, are punitively dealt with and penalised as a result. So there is a culture of fear within the organisation, a culture of fear within the organisation,

a culture of fear of speaking out. And that's the issue. So there may only be one or two bad actors, and I hope that's the case. However, the organisation is institutionalised to protect its own, and that's just not good enough. Thank you for your call, Jack. Just before I let you go,

do you regret blowing that whistle? In no way, shape or form. I regret nothing was done about it, but I would do it again in a heartbeat. Really interesting. Thanks for your call. The number to call is 03700 100 444. Thanks for all your messages coming in as well.

A number coming in also supporting the police. Let me see. After years of feeling trapped with a drunk and aggressive husband and two small kids, I was advised by a school family counsellor to call police after he spat at me in front of the kids. I went to the local police station. They took all the details. They went to arrest him and called me when they had.

They took his house keys and told him not to come back. That day was hugely stressful but marked my freedom and I could not have done it without them. Another one, let me see. I haven't trusted the police since 1997 when I rang up having been robbed in my flat and watching the burglar walk down the street with

suitcases off my stuff. The police didn't even call back for three or four hours. So lack of trust for the police in London is nothing new. Well, we're also, I should say, getting calls in from outside London as well. So people do talk about other forces.

Some saying, you might have seen this in the papers this morning, that a Casey review is needed for many more forces across the country. I want to turn back to my colleague, Seema Kotecha, our home editor at Newsnight. Seema, some of the stories coming in there are so interesting,

but I want to jump onto what Jack was saying there. You know, he believes the solution to restore trust is only to rip apart and rebuild. He was mentioning the RUC and the PSNI, the Police Service of Northern Ireland, what they did after the Troubles. I'm wondering what has been talked about

in this respect? Well, I actually spoke to Diane Abbott yesterday, the Labour MP who sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee, and she was saying exactly the same, that she feels very strongly about the Met being ripped apart and then put together again, but having different sections of it led by different bodies. So the Metropolitan Police not leading all these different branches, but having, as I say, different bodies taking responsibility for those separate branches, like the Royal Ulster Constabulary did when it became Police of Northern Ireland.

Now, she thinks that that is a good model to follow. She thinks the damage is so severe with the Metropolitan Police that the only way trust can be rebuilt is by having it completely reconstructed. And like I said, more independent bodies coming in and giving their views on what needs to be done. But what I would say, Nuala, is that when you've got Dame Louise Casey

saying that the force is institutionally racist and that the force is homophobic and sexist, it's very difficult for women and people of colour and those who are gay to trust Britain's largest force. And this comes at a time when the Met is also trying to recruit more officers. So I think what's going to happen now is that trust in that force is going to nosedive and something very significant is going to have to be done by the Met Police before that trust is then rebuilt. And I think, you know, the Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley, who I've spoken to on several occasions, is very much aware of this.

What he is saying is that he is very confident that he is going to be able to do this. I think another problem is, Nuala, is the size of the force. We're talking about 33,000 officers. This is the United Kingdom's largest force. When you compare it to another force, let's say the West Midlands Police, for example, where there are 7,000 and you look at the number of people in the Met, the sheer size of it makes changing it incredibly difficult and challenging. And I think anyone who works for a large organisation will see that.

Having a strong leadership or having a leadership that is determined to implement change perhaps is not enough when you're talking about so many people. Yeah, the one I did see from the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, she said, as things stand, there's no blueprint for a reorganised system in England and Wales, and politicians of all stripes seem content to give Sir Mark the benefit of the doubt for the moment. She said she'd be holding the Met Police and the Mayor of London to account by measuring progress. But as she currently

has every confidence, that Sir Mark Rowley and his team will deliver. So many calls coming in, 03700 100 444. Just broadening out as well, a listener getting in touch says, some years ago,

I was desperately trying to escape an abusive relationship with a policeman where I was under coercive control. I was terrorised by him and I called the police and they protected him. He also used to come home with inappropriate photographs of crime scenes where they

would be standing around with their thumbs up. He was a bully and he joined the police so he could legally bully people. This was not the Met. I believe all forces have an issue. Right, let me turn to Julie who is joining us. Hello, Julie. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello.

So, do you trust the police? I do, completely. Why? Well, my only contact with the Met was when I really needed them. I was in an abusive relationship, and one night he was so violent that I thought my life was in an abusive relationship, and one night he was so violent that I thought my life was in danger. So I dialed 999 for the first time. Within ten minutes, probably seven minutes, several policemen arrived.

They pinned him up against the wall in another room, while two of them came straight to me to check on me physically mentally they gave advice and comfort and they said it's not right that you should leave your own home but we can take him away if you want he's the one that's got to go um and they saved possibly my life and certainly my mental health and they said don't hesitate to pick up the phone. You don't have to wait until you think your life is in danger. We will be here and we'll support you. So what can I say?

I said, yeah, I think they're... And when you hear about the Casey review, and obviously that is the Metropolitan Police that she is detailing, does that give you pause? Do you think like yours was a usual or more unusual event? I think the report I know was very considered and accurate, but I think just don't rubbish a whole police force. Change the institutional angle.

And restructuring is, I don't see what the last caller was saying, but restructuring is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It's not going to solve the problem. And maybe down the line, restructuring would be good for such a big force. But the issue is the prejudices. And that will only start from the leadership. So leadership. Yeah, the leadership sounds that they're committed.

Don't restructure that. That's tinkering. It will demoralise it won't achieve anything not yet anyway I understand it's got to be leadership and I'm just very disappointed

that a woman leading I think brought the force down as opposed to you're talking about Cressida Dick yeah yeah yeah okay well we don't have her to obviously to respond to that or but that is your thoughts

that you're putting across Julie on, on Women's Hour today. Thanks so much for joining us. 03 700 100 444. Some more messages coming in. I'm a serving female detective, totally sad, dismayed and disheartened about the situation in the Met Police. That is not my police force, she says. Of course, that force needs to change. The culture is toxic by all accounts.

That is not my experience of being a police officer. I've always worked with dedicated professionals who've shown care and compassion towards victims, witnesses and dealt with suspects with respect, regardless of their background. Another, there is no training on power. What it means and what it feels like to have power over other people.

A friend trained and became a police officer and we saw his personality change for the worse. That's an interesting one coming in. Virginia got in touch, she says, as a transgender woman I have to say I have no trust or faith in the police. My experience of many organisations has

been one of we don't understand, we don't want to understand or help and consequently we're going to ignore you and hope you go away. If I were a victim of hate crime and virginia says all too likely or accused of a crime i believe the police would not take me seriously on either account and would instead play to preconceived prejudices we're hearing that word come up a lot aren't we um let's turn to elizabeth hi elizabeth welcome to woman's hour um do you have faith and trust in the police? Yes, and it may be somewhat surprising me, but I do.

My experience was 40 years ago when a policeman attempted to rape me. He was an on-duty policeman and didn't belong to the Met, another police force. And I was in a position of having been involved in a traffic accident. And he came to my house to take a statement. He asked me to go and fetch some documents, which were in the bedroom next door. I went through there and he followed me in and quite seriously assaulted me. I was left with thigh and genital bruising and my underwear was ripped. I spoke to a lawyer about it atvability and trust and that I would

be taken through court and my life would be made very difficult by the cross-examination. So I didn't take it any further and I kind of regret that now. And I think that people coming forward and reporting misdemeanors like this is incredibly important. And by continuing to call out what is actually happening, I think that will000 complaints recorded against police officers. And what they feel is that so many that have allegations against them continue to serve, that they're not clamped down on. We heard that also from Jack, who was an ex-officer, who was also a whistleblower. Yeah. Yes. And I did hear that. And I think that by continuing and in a way, because people are reporting and they are being called out more, we have had this report. And I think, therefore, change will happen. I think it's a shame that it's taken this long, but I don't think it's a new thing. I don't think this is a new phenomenon.

I think there always have been police officers within the force who are not caught by pre-employment screening. I think that's quite a blunt tool. I think it's necessary, but I think it's a blunt tool. I also think that organisational change in such a big organisation will only go so far as well. I do think that the public need to continue, although it's painful and personally risky, to actually call out. And I think that, you know, change will now happen. And partially that is because so many people have come forward. Right. Very interesting, Elizabeth, that you see this as a moment of change, really, that many people did say that report being released would be a game changer of sorts. Let me see, here's another from Richard. Women, I know, have no confidence either in the police or in the wider criminal justice system in cases of sexual violence.

Root and branch reform of both is an absolute necessity and an absolute priority. I want to hear your solutions. Thanks to Elizabeth, and I'm sorry, Elizabeth, as well, that you had to go through that awful experience that you described to us those years ago. Here's another anonymous. Sadly, culture in the police or anywhere will not change

while those who do not share appalling views and behaviours stand by and do nothing. If the police really want to change, they need to encourage and support every officer to challenge everything they hear that they ansee that is misogynistic, racist and just wrong. I think that actually echoes

what Dame Lynn Owens was saying to me yesterday on Woman's Hour, asking people to be part of this reform with them. And that was members of the public. We did have an officer, Holly, not her real name, speaking about her experiences. And Dame Lynn wanted to get people like Holly on board to try and make these changes. Let's hear from Geoff. Hi, jeff good to have you with us um you're thinking about solutions and i'd be curious

about how you feel about the issue of trust okay um i i i unfortunately have just um missed the last five minutes so progress i'm not sure worries. In terms of a solution for the service, the major problem with the police service and particularly the Met is that people who are acting as supervisors are no more than senior constables and don't take the responsibility sufficiently responsibly

enough and in terms of a solution, because I think we've got a lot for solutions one of the things I would propose is a solution. You know what Geoff, I'm so sorry, I'm going to jump in there, the line is just breaking up a little bit for our listeners we might try and get a better connection to you. Forgive me for that.

It's just I know it's a little difficult to get to the solution. I know you had some. I want to turn to Navas, not your real name, as I understand. You're thinking about solutions as well, Navas, and welcome. Hi there. Thank you very much for having me. I'm actually a trainee police officer, a special constable. And I was vetted over a year ago. And I was compelled to join from a moral duty perspective

to be visible and representative of my community after the Sarah Everard events. And I really have been very disillusioned over the last few days hearing the reports that have been coming out. But our training so far, I've done 26 weekends alongside my full time job. I work in the charity sector in both safeguarding and preventing domestic violence and abuse in the charity sector. So I do that full time during the day and I wanted to give something back to the community.

And as a special constable, that means we're volunteers and we work alongside regular police officers and we're given the same powers as a regular police officer. But we're trained specifically by really passionate, as I would see, and I've not been able to say anything against that police officers who train us, but as a special volunteer officer, we go through job-related training, physical training, and theory through those weekends before we can get a warrant card, and we do all of those tests beforehand. And I really feel that in order to change and make that change into the next generation,

if we don't come into the force and change that as a special volunteer alongside our regular job to protect the community and be visible and as a person of colour and gay, I want to make sure that we can change it from the inside out. But do you feel, I understand, but do you feel that that can happen even after reading that damning report? I think we can only have faith and hope that that has to happen in a country like ours that can believe that we can change. And if we can't change, there has to be something else that has to change both on the unconscious biases that happen, the privileges and the power.

What does that mean for an organisation like the Met? We can change it and I believe the leadership will be able to do that. Do you feel your vetting process was appropriate? I do.

I do feel it was appropriate. I don't know if it was appropriate for I do. I do feel it was appropriate. I don't know if it was appropriate for all genders because there are some things that go unchecked, such as domestic abuse. Nobody would check that unless you've got a record.

So how would you check that? I think that is something we can add into the vetting process. Right. So that is part of it, the vetting process as well. Navas, thanks so much. Sound incredible that you're already doing that

day job and then giving back to the community in the way that you do as well. Let me see, Aaron got in touch. Hi, Women's Hour. I'm a serving male police officer not in the Met. I'm the Safer Women at Night coordinator and regularly undertake operations to tackle violence against women and girls and unwanted

sexual behaviour. My force takes women's safety very seriously. It upsets me that people do not trust the police and when my colleagues and I work extremely hard to target misogyny and sexual abuse against women. Let me see. I was a trainee detective, says another, in the Met and left last year. I was only in the job a matter of months and left due to the lack of support, misogyny and toxic environment.

The blatant misconduct that more senior officers, especially in training school, exhibit is rife. So there you have two coming in just with completely different experiences. Let's turn to Rob. Hi, Rob. Welcome to Woman's Hour. You're a retired officer. Have I got that right? Yes, I am. I've about 15 years now and when you see this report do you think of a way through a way that possibly could resolve some of these terrible issues that we're hearing about well firstly i might i might say that the the average police officer on the street looks at people like carrick and cousins and we are absolutely ashamed that they wore the same cloth as us.

We denounce them completely. They are not part of our service and we are disgusted. We believe that the vetting procedure has let the police service down. We believe that various governments, all succeeding governments, have let the police service down with the withdrawal of

funds, with the lesser police officers that are on the street. Police officers, we are not social workers. We never have been. And when we get called to domestic disputes, more often than not, we go to sort a matter out between a husband and wife

and suddenly we become the common enemy and it makes it very difficult it's it's i think it's down to to um financing you think it's financing yes you feel that it's being being just not because what i heard in the review yesterday was that there were certain areas that had broken fridges that meant that samples that were evidence in rape cases were lost during the heat wave. Basically, the fridges were broken, they weren't able to close fridges. And then in other departments, which were some of the firearm departments,

I think the words she used was that the boys could get any toy that they wanted, meaning whether it was guns, other equipment, various uniform, that there was no limit when it came to that budget. I did see for the financial year ending March 2023, an allocation of £16,987 million has been agreed in funding for policing in England and Wales. So this is an increase of 7% compared with previous years

in nominal terms. I mean, do you think something like that makes a difference? And when I talk about the disparity in the various departments about where money is being spent, you know, does that sound familiar? Yes, it does.

You talk about the extra equipment for firearms officers. Regretfully, the firearms people have to keep up with the terrorists. They are always a step behind. And they need to be able to keep up with this to protect us. I'm not condoning any of the behaviour that's gone on in the firearms units that's been discovered. That's wrong, completely wrong. Yes, if there's fridges that have been not replaced,

and that's disgusting. But I think it all comes, it's successive governments that have wielded the rod of cuts and cuts and cuts and this is where we have got to. But what about misogyny? I mean, where does money and misogyny intersect? Well, I think with better training.

The training's been outsourced. Now, when I joined the police service, I spent 15 weeks at Hendon training. I believe I had the best of the training now that they're not they don't go to training centres they don't go training again is almost

outsourced. But Rob I mean didn't you see misogyny even though you would have been with your cohort that were trained at that time with that training? In the training there was no I didn't see any kind of misogyny whatsoever. That I can honestly say. I have seen it.

I'm not saying that I didn't see it and it was wrong. But on the whole, I didn't see. There was, there was some, but it was these one or two isolated incidents. There was certainly,

there was misogyny at the training school. I think it's a bad thing. Thank you for your call. The vetting procedure is what you are pointing towards when you talk about solutions. I have so many calls coming in and also messages. Thank you very much for that. 03700 100 444.

Here's a message. It's not just the Met. I have two friends who are junior police officers in a force in the south of England. They've both casually mentioned the banter that goes on behind the scenes

on more than one occasion. Jokes about suicide and rape. I've also had to call the police on several occasions over the years and I've had an excellent experience. Officers can do a good job and there can be an unacceptable environment

behind closed doors. These two aren't mutually exclusive. Interesting let's turn to tina hi tina welcome to woman's hour you're hearing about the review you're hearing other people's stories i'm wondering what you're thinking it might take to fix it um i think you have to be in it as in the community the diverse community have to be in it young black people but if the police have taken on this stance with the young black people to alienate them in terms of the way they've interacted with them over the years will they when they're grown up want to then become police officers and your answer would be i don't know i don't know how you're actually going to alienate me when i'm young and then want me to be part of your organisation

when I'm older Yes I do see Marianne's getting in touch Tina and she says black people have had a genuine distrust of the police since the 80s this is one of many reports that proves the racism we faced

was not a figment of our collective imagination It definitely wasn't we were complaining about this and talking about it years ago so now everyone else is coming on board and listening, but it's been something that's been said for a long time. Do you feel like

other parts of society are just catching up? Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. One more. I was the victim of a racially motivated unprovoked attack while I sat in a stationary vehicle in traffic. Two men attacked my vehicle and tried to drag me out. A lot of damage was caused to my car.

When I reported it to the police, I was asked if I had any CCTV of the attack. When I told them I didn't, they said there was nothing they could do. I mean, there's always been this push, Tina, particularly in recent years, to try and have more people of colour joining the force. Some say the culture is so ingrained at the moment that that doesn't make a difference. What do you think? I know you think there's a problem recruiting people of colour because being disenfranchised from an earlier age. They're definitely disenfranchised from an earlier age. My daughter is in her teens and her recent encounter with the police hasn't been good. So as a young person, without me even saying anything, her experience with them would more than likely drive that. I don't want to be part of that. I don't want to join the police.

But I do believe unless we're in it, we're not going to win it. It's not going to change unless there's more women. It's not going to change unless there's more people of colour. It's just not going to change. But how do you do it when it's already been going, if that's the way the circle's been going around? Good question. Thank you, Tina, for your call. Let's go to another couple quickly. James, I believe you're a retired police officer.

What would your solution be? Oh, gosh, that's very interesting. Well, first of all, I'll have decent leadership. You don't think there's decent leadership? I don't think there's been decent leadership in the Met for years, you know. A lot of us look at it and say, we wish we could have someone back as commissioner of the same statute as Sir Robert Mark, okay, or Lord Inbert or Lord Stevens, John Stevens. But, you know, most commissioners these days are political appointees. They're politicians.

They're not what I call police officers. They're politicians. Okay. Okay. So you're talking about the leadership, but let's say you're the leader. You get to decide what's going to happen. What's the first thing you're going to do? Oh, discipline.

Discipline's important. So if something's alleged or there's a complaint against a police officer, what would you do? Needs to be properly investigated. But do they continue serving while there's that allegation over his or her head? Hang on a minute. It's just like saying if there's an investigation against someone, what tends to happen is, I'm a former Federation rep as well, they will be taken off frontline duties okay they'll be put they'll be in the back room they won't have any public facing duties okay

public facing but some some feel they shouldn't be serving and shouldn't be getting paid I'm afraid you know some people should do that but remember a person's innocent until they've proven guilty uh okay okay well let me pop it there for a moment, James. Thank you so much, because I just in my last few seconds, I just want to return to Seema. Seema, we've heard so much from our listeners there. What struck you just in our last 30 seconds? I think the mixed response. I think several calls from people saying that they trust the police.

And I think that's important because I've heard that time and time again, that they've had a positive experience with the police. And I think the quantity of calls that you had there was something that kind of, you know, struck with me. And also the fact that people feel that discipline is not enough. So the gentleman that you just spoke to now, him saying that, you you know there needs to be

people need to be punished if you like um and they need to be taken away from their duties um if there is a serious investigation hanging over their heads and i think lastly i think what um dame louise casey has said that again rings true from the people that i've spoken to is that there needs to be a proper well-meant apology and I think from some of those I've spoken to in the Metropolitan Police they feel that that apology hasn't yet happened. Seema Kateshia thank you so much joining us on Woman's Hour thanks for all your calls do join Anita Ranney tomorrow on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time. Hello my Radio 4 podcast series Amol Rajan Interviews features global game changers Manzara. Join us again next time.

You can subscribe and listen on BBC Sounds. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.