Woman's Hour - Turning your passion into a business with Deborah Meaden and Lynne Franks

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

Are you harbouring a dream of turning your passion into a business? Today we hear from women already doing it and find out what support's out there for women taking up the challenge. Deborah Meaden, Dragons Den investor, entrepreneur and host of the Big Green Money Show joins Krupa Padhy to discuss #Passionintobusiness Sam Jackman is the creator and founder of a post-mastectomy breast form. She developed it after her mum complained about her discomfort with the traditional silicone gel prosthesis she was using following breast cancer treatment. Sharon McBean from Birmingham wanted a music box with a young Black ballerina twirling around for her daughter (so it looked like her). She couldn't find one anywhere so started to manufacture and sell her own. And Joan D’Arcy in North West Scotland tells us about her non-profit business looking for local solutions to stop plastic pollution generated at sea.We also hear from social entrepreneur and founder of the SEED Women’s Enterprise Network, Lynne Franks. She started her own PR consultancy back in 1975 and now supports and mentors women running or hoping to run their own business. Plus Sarah Ronan, board member of Parental Pay Equality and part of the Women’s Budget Group unpicks the latest statistics around self-employment and women in the UK and Yvonne Sampson, Head of enterprise at GC Business Growth Hub in Manchester, explains what support they offer to women with their business ideas.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Deborah Meaden Interviewed Guest: Sam Jackman Interviewed Guest: Sarah Ronan Interviewed Guest: Yvonne Sampson Interviewed Guest: Lynne Franks Interviewed Guest: Sharon McBean Interviewed Guest: Joan D'Arcy

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Good morning. Good to have you with us. Are you harbouring a dream of turning your passion into a business? On the programme, we're looking at the possibility of doing exactly that and bringing together in conversation some of the key names in this world. We're also meeting three women who are already on the road to making this happen. Have you a particular skill that you enjoy that you could turn into a business venture? Do you want to manufacture something you've recognised isn't already out there? Have you a prized family recipe you think would sell well? Maybe you're keen to offer a service

lacking in your area. And what's holding you back? Maybe you've already made it happen. And what's that experience been like? Rewarding? A sharp learning curve? And whilst this is a bank holiday programme and it isn't live, it's been pre-recorded, you can still let us know your thoughts and experiences by texting Women's Hour on 84844. As always, our conversation is very active on our Instagram and Twitter handle at BBC Women's Hour as well. And we start our conversation with the pleasure of speaking to Deborah Meaden, the Dragon's Den investor, entrepreneur and host of the Big Green Money show. Very good to have you with us, Deborah. Thank you for inviting me. It's my favourite subject. Well, let's start with that. Making your passion into your business, is that a good starting point in your opinion?

Well, I think it that a good starting point in your opinion? Well, I think it is a good starting point. I always think the best businesses and the businesses that have the biggest chance of survival are the ones that people really, really care about. And caring comes from passion. Now, passion alone doesn't make it a success, but it is a very, very good starting point. So it's a good starting point, but it's not enough. And when you reflect back on your time on Dragon's Den, you've invested more than £3 million into more than 60 projects through the programme over the past 16 years. How often is it that passion has proven to be a basis for a good business idea?

Well, seeing people's passion is one of the fundamental reasons I invest. So I'm really not interested in people who would just come in here and think, well, I can make a load of money out of this and that's the end of it. I'm attracted to investments that have passion at the root of them. So I would say all of the businesses that I've invested in, I believed that the people have cared. Now, as I say, that isn't enough. That isn't the sole reason a business works. And in fact, it can be the reason a business fails, because you have to move from the sheer passion and believing that you've really got something here into the slightly

more hard-nosed research bit that says, actually, I might love this, but are there enough other people out there who would love this as much as me to make this an actual business? And I imagine listening to that, that instinct plays a big role in that thought process. I mean, have your instincts always been right in deciding who to invest in? Oh, no. And anybody who tells you that they've got it right every time, I promise you they are not telling the truth. No, absolutely not. I mean, you're right. Instinct is a big thing. You know, actually, when I think about investments, it's like a row of switches. I ask a lot of questions and I sort of click a load of switches down. But the last thing is, how do I feel? You know, I'm pointing at my stomach now. You can't see it. But how do I feel about this? And that's the

instinct bit. But you do get it wrong right well I always say in life all you've got to do is get more right than you get wrong you know and there isn't an investor there who hasn't actually made the wrong decision you talk about questions and the questions that you ask and one of those as you've just mentioned is how do you feel inside but what are the other questions the other considerations that you should be thinking about? Well, it's a very different set of questions for every business. But actually, the overarching thing is, what is the reason to be? What is this business's reason to be? Is it going to be the cheapest? Is it going to be the fastest? Is it going to be the best? Why is it going to succeed? Because most businesses are actually based on

things that already exist. Very rarely do people honestly come up with something completely new nobody has ever thought of. But it has got to have a reason to be in a marketplace that's probably partially fulfilled. So understanding your reason to be is absolutely essential. And if you can't articulate that quite quickly, then I think you have to think long and hard. Otherwise, you just become a me too. You just become one of the many providers. That's a good starting point, a good group of questions for someone. You might be listening and thinking, where do I start? That's a good kind of grounding for them. Let's talk about women in the workplace, women starting out launching their own business.

Why do you think more women are attracted to self-employment and being entrepreneurs? Well, I think women as men are very, very creative. They have a million and one ideas, very practical, have a lot of experiences about things that maybe they're, you know, they're struggling with or thinking, actually, I wish if only or I wish there was. But I also think, particularly at the moment, that the flexibility can feel very, very important. Now, that can be a misconception, because actually, when you first start a business, there are times when it's running you. I can see some heads shaking here. But I think that's in agreement, you know,

because you think that you have a load of flexibility, but a business is very, very demanding. And it's actually a little bit, I haven't got children, but I have observed people, it's like having children. When it needs you, it needs you. And you can't say that, you know,

I'm clocking off at five o'clock. So, but- I'm sure many would agree that a business is your baby though, isn't it? Well, yes. I mean, I haven't got children, so I suspect there's a slightly different relationship, but it is very true that it needs nurturing.

And I actually talk about businesses growing up. You know, they're babies, they need feeding, they can't do anything on their own and then they start toddling, you know, and then they grow up and you don't have to spend that much time with them. Well, still quite a bit of time. But I think the whole thing about freedom, I think you can get there.

And that is very, very true that you can structure a business around you. But you do have to recognise, particularly in the early days, you are going to be at its beck and call. Can we get your guidance on funding? Because research shows that it is often harder for women to get funding for their projects. Do you think that's still the case? I have a really sneaky suspicion that still might be true. And it's wrong. It's disgraceful, actually. I mean, it's wrong because also research says that women are a really good bet. And certainly from my point of view, to me, it doesn't it doesn't matter. I'm looking I'm looking at a good business proposal. And business is a good place for equality,

because actually the consumer doesn't care who you are or what you are or what gender you are. You know, they just want a good service or a good product. So I have a sneaky suspicion that that does still happen. I personally don't think I experienced it, but I do see it. And obviously, it wouldn't come from me because that would be mad. I think it's a crazy thing to actually base an investment decision on gender. That is just crazy. It's irrelevant. What we've been hearing in many of the messages that we've been receiving is that a lot of women are turning to using their own money to launch their business. What's your take on that? Well, a lot of men do too. So I don't think that's a gender specific thing. And actually, as an investor, I like to

see that people have got some skin in the game. I'm a little bit suspicious when people want me to put my money into their business, but they're not prepared to put their own money in. But I also understand there can often be a disparity in funds available. You know, I might have the money to do it, and to them £2,000 might be a fortune, and to me £20,000, you know. So I understand that, but I do like to see some skin in the game. And that's not just women. You know, that's all investments.

I like to think that we're both risking something here. Going back to passion, did you start by following your passion, Deborah? Well, interestingly, I think my passion was business. So it wasn't specifically a thing. To be honest, I wanted to be a show jumper, but I was rubbish. And I'm not, and I'm also not stupid. I'm not sure I can see you as a show jumper Deborah well I'm not silly and I you know I knew that was never going to work but I discovered really quickly I like the mechanics of business now that doesn't mean to say every business there are businesses and industries I would never invest in because they have which are they though well things like oil and tobacco and anything that I think would be harmful to the environment. So my businesses have

to fit my values. And fortunately, I'm in a position to be able to choose those businesses. But I would say that my passion is business. I love the creativity of it. When I was talking about wanting to be in business, when I was at school and talking to the careers officer, they talked about business in this really dull way, suited and booted and dull. And I just find business exciting and challenging. And you get to meet amazing people and wonderfully creative people. It changes the world business.

So I think I'm passionate about business itself. And it can't have been soon after that conversation with that careers counsellor at school that you went off to launch your own business. Yes, yes, against their advice, obviously. Yes. Well, I did go to business college. I did an OND in business studies, really didn't turn up a lot, had a fantastic time in Brighton, just about scraped through. So I'm not saying that's a great path, but I had a wonderful time. Anyway, and then I went over to Italy, ran out of money, and then realised that I really needed to get on with something.

So I managed to convince four Italian businesses that I could bring their products back into the UK. And then your journey continued. And what's been your biggest learning curve, in your opinion? Well, that first business was a was a failure because I had them all under contract and I started seeing the products that I was bringing back into the UK arrive in Harvey Nichols and Harrods going direct, not through me. And I was furious, but I, I learned very, very quickly in business, you need to know what to spend your time on. And I could have spent my time fighting them and taking them to court. And I just thought, you know what, I just need to learn from that and I need to move on. But the other business I had and I think taught me more than anything and this is really going to surprise you, I had a prize bingo

and that taught me so much about... Show jumper, prize bingo. What next, Debra? What next? You keep surprising us. Thank you. Do stay with us. We are keen to get your thoughts as we go through the programme.

Deborah Meaden there. Well, let's talk to the first of three women who have made their passion into a business. Sam Jackman is the creator and founder of a post-mastectomy breast form. Welcome to the programme, Sam. Very good to have you with us. Hello. Thank you for having me. Why don't you start by telling us the story behind your post-mastectomy breast form? So my mum had breast cancer and it was around 17 years ago and she was given a product and I need to hold them to talk about them really so please forgive me. No, it's important. The products that you're're given after surgery if you've had a single mastectomy they tend to be beige there's silicon gel and a polyurethane film um if I said chicken

fillet then I guess people might understand a little bit or have a picture in their head of what we're talking about and these products are given to people to place inside a bra to help them to recreate some shape and contour after they've had breast cancer surgery but in practice for my mum in particular she found that it was really heavy it made her hot and sweaty she had menopausal symptoms brought on by the chemotherapy she had a load of other stuff going on she had her lymph nodes removed and she just found that it was really tricky to wear it and I was working my mum was helping to provide childcare for my son, who was very small at the time. And it felt impractical to her. And she complained about it to me quite a lot.

And I thought, you know, I guess the daughters do. Oh, that's my mum. She's just got an issue with this thing. That's what loads of people wear these things. I'm sure it's fine and it turned out that people weren't fine with them and once we started to explore that things developed from there and what have you therefore created what is this final result so our team and it wasn't just me I have to say because the as we were talking about earlier product design take there a hell of a lot of work a lot of research a lot of process but we created what we call a boost breast form I should just stop you there unless our listeners know that you've put down the traditional silicon gel breast forms and now you've picked up I don't know how to describe it how would you describe it so we describe our breast forms it's the world's

first really open structured molded breast form it's bright it's colorful it's got a pattern on the front and it is open structured which means it has a rib pattern behind it and a kind of front face that has cut out shapes in it so the air can circulate through it takes the weight out of the product it means that it can be molded it's moulded in high quality medical grade silicon we do have a recycling process for it which is completely lacking in the alternative products and the silicon gel ones if they split and they leak which they do and they have a shelf life of maybe two years ours are a lot more hard wearing and we do have an end of life recycling process and a process for recycling our production waste so all of those

things were taken into account but the idea of our product is that it's more of a feel-good product it's not trying to replicate the flesh it's a breast-shaped teal colored with lots of holes in it with lots of holes in it so the pattern on this one we call the mandala pattern and it was based on women's experiences who were really into yoga and and that kind of thing great stories behind this and great for women great for the environment but i want to know how it's been for you because i know funding and we just spoke about funding with deborah there briefly but funding has also been a struggle for you and i want to bring in a message that we've had in from heidi who lives in cambridgeshire who got in touch with us and they reminded that this

is not a live programme, but we're still very keen to hear from you. Heidi writes, I'm a nurse who was fed up with a lack of services in my area for ear care. I've always been motivated to make a difference, so I took matters into my own hands. I self-funded training in ear care and microsuction, and I'm now running my own microsuction business

for housebound patients. It's the best move I've made. And sourcing funding for you was also testing, wasn't it? It was really tricky. It was really hard. We knew that because we were the first to do this kind of thing, the first to really create this kind of product, and it didn't exist anywhere else, that we needed to protect that. So things like the legal protection, the patents, we have EU patents, US patents and UK patents. All of those things take a lot of money and a lot of time.

And at the time, it was really hard to seek into external investment. We did have a little bit of grant funding, but mostly I took extra work. I did some freelance work alongside my salary job and I just worked as much as I could to get enough money in so that I could afford to go through that process and we could we could progress that product onwards because the more research we did the more women were coming out and saying we really need this thing and we really want it and we really want to try it and that just really helps to give you the incentive and the motivation from going from just what my mum was saying to actually going to this whole community

of women that were saying the same thing. Well, Sam, we wish you all the best with your product as you take it forward. I know that you recently reached the Telegraph's top 10 highly commended businesses in a 100 female entrepreneurs to watch programme. So congratulations to you. I wish you all the best as you take it to the next devil. Deborah, let me bring you back in here because Sam there mentions an interesting point about how every little step in business costs, the patent there was mentioned. And this all adds up if you're going out alone.

Well, absolutely. And patents in particular can be very expensive. And one of the things I say, first of all, and clearly Sam does meet this hurdle. But before you spend a fortune, make sure it's going to be worth something. Because if there are 1001 other ways to do the thing that you're trying to do, there's no point protecting the way that you do it. Now, Sam's has met that hurdle, because I can see that's quite a complex structure she's got there. And I should think that's quite difficult to meet. So she's done the right thing in investing in a patent

but you do have to think long and hard not everything should be patented. Well let's keep talking about support out there for women who are looking to start their own businesses. According to a report earlier this year more businesses are being founded in the northwest by women than ever before, particularly in Manchester. Yvonne Sampson is head of enterprise at GC Business Growth Hub in Manchester, and Sarah Ronan is a board member of the Parental Pay Equality and part of the Women's Budget Group. They are here to unpick the latest data around self-employment and women in the UK. Thanks for your time, both of you. Sarah, let me start with you.

Give us a sense of those numbers. Talk us through how many women are self-employed in the UK and how that's changed. Sure. So there's about 1.5 million self-employed women in the UK. And what we've seen since the financial crash of 2009 is that that self-employment boom has really been led by women so 45 percent of people entering self-employment are women so it's actually twice the rate of men more women are entering self-employment than men and I think that that's

mainly being driven by that desire for flexibility control over working hours. We know that despite best intentions around gendered stereotypes around care and trying to divide care more evenly in the home, we know that women still perform the lion's share of childcare and care for elderly relatives. And so self-employment has been seen as a route to more flexible work for a lot of women. And that's kind of been a key reason for a lot of the increase over the last 10 or 12 years. But what we did see over the course of the pandemic was a drop in the number of self-employed. So at the end of 2019, there was about 5 million self-employed people in the UK and that dropped to 4.2 million during the pandemic. I don't think it will come as any surprise to anybody on this episode and on the

show that that was in large part due to the lack of government support for the self-employed. We noticed that there was a tendency during the furlough scheme for a lot of people that were directors and partners of companies to stay in the same role, but to switch their status from self-employed to employees that they could avail of furlough. The various issues around that, there was the excluded campaign, anyone that was self-employed during that period, particularly if you were a woman and you had children in recent years, you would have obviously kind of felt the impact of maternity leave as well on that self-employment grant payment. So all of those kind of things conspired to produce a drop in the number of self-employed. But that was predominantly concentrated in male dominated occupations. There was a drop somewhat in female self-employment, but it was mainly among those

male dominated occupations like construction and also in those kind of senior, highly skilled occupations as well and director roles. You mentioned the pandemic many times there and the pandemic, as you said at one point, it was a catalyst for many women taking a leap and going into business and running their own business. A message here from Katie who writes, I always had a dream of becoming an interior designer and I've spent my career in marketing and brand management. When COVID landed, I re-evaluated my career and decided that age 50, it was time to go for it. This then resulted in great friends approaching me to help them renovate their Georgian six-bedroomed house from top to bottom. And I've done it and I'm incredibly proud of what I've achieved.

And Sally writes, in March 2020, I started a job with British Airways, but due to Covid, lost it two weeks later and had no income. So I started painting again. I've always loved painting. And two years later, it's going from strength to strength. I even have a studio now and will soon be supplying Kew Gardens. It takes persistence and masses of hard work. And today it's only eight degrees in the studio, but I love it and would never go back to working for someone. Yvonne, let me bring you in here because we're talking about women

taking that leap, going into running their own businesses. According to a recent report, nearly 15,000 companies were established by women in the Northwest last year. And Manchester particularly has a high number of self-employed women. Why do you think that is? I think some people have answered it already in the sense that I think through COVID, a lot of women either re-evaluated their lives, they were on furlough and decided they didn't want to go back to that corporate world and decided to dip their toes into self-employment. And within Manchester, there's an awful lot of support out there, especially for the self-employed women. And the support actually at the moment is we have over 65% of women that are on any of our

programmes that are actually setting up their own businesses or starting the businesses or retaining the businesses. If I just give you an example, we set up a programme two weeks before COVID and lockdown, and that was targeted at the self-employed at the lower end of the market in the sense that they weren't earning an awful lot of money. And it was to really support them to increase their level of earnings to maybe come off benefits and what we found was then COVID happened and our business coaches support and people have mentioned before about mentoring and support only three percent of over two and a half thousand people that have gone through the program actually stopped being self-employed

because of that particular program and as I, the higher proportion of women actually go through that programme. Research shows you that more women do seek out business support predominantly than men. So we're not booking the trend there. But yeah, I just think Manchester is very, very vibrant. There's an awful lot of women's business networking. There's the Northern Power women's support there, lots of mentoring. And yeah, it's just gone from strength to strength. And having that support network sounds so very important.

Sarah, how do these numbers that we've mentioned here, how do they compare to other European nations? I think it's difficult to draw a comparison there because we're talking about different economies and different labour markets, but also because social security systems and benefits have got a huge role to play in being able to support people during that kind of startup phase as well. And so what you see is that in some of the southern European countries where they have a huge reliance on agriculture and big rural sectors and more informal work. If you look at the figures, there appears to be a really high self-employment rate among women. But if you look at the type of work that they're doing, it's often in low paid occupations. And in the States, you see a hemorrhaging of female talent from the traditional labour market into self-employment, that's almost a kind of forced

self-employment because they don't have the maternity pay policies there, they don't have access to childcare. And so to draw comparisons is a little bit difficult because we're talking about completely different labour markets and economies. But just so I get a clearer understanding, what are the kind of sectors that women here in the UK are going into when they're launching their own business? So women tend to be concentrated in the creative industries. And so I guess when we're talking about self-employed people, we need to kind of differentiate because there are subgroups within that. Right. So there are those that own their own businesses and are directors and employ other people. But the majority of those

that are self-employed are sole self-employed sole traders and freelancers and for women they'll be concentrated in the creative industries or in personal services like hairdressing and also actually other occupations like cleaning and domestic work as well make up a huge chunk of that so I think there's another conversation to have here where we're talking about women starting their own businesses and the numbers around self-employment. And it's absolutely brilliant to see that boom in self-employment among women over the last 10 years. But we also want to make sure that that's quality self-employment, right? That it's not bogus self-employment, that it's not actually low paid employment by another

name and actually really dig into those figures because I think sometimes it's easy you know for the government and policymakers to say oh look at what we're doing to support more women into business but actually you pull those figures apart and really you see men in these highly skilled occupations and trade and making up that managerial kind of level of self-employment. And you see that women tend to have been dominating those gig economy type roles. So, yeah. Deborah, let me get you back in here because I'm keen to understand from you what the most unusual business you've invested in, which a woman has been at the kind of centre of, the catalyst of. Oh, gosh. Trouble is, unusual becomes usual, doesn't it, when you live in your everyday life?

So I'll talk about a groundbreaking business. So Charlotte Morley came into the den. She presented a business which is basically renting children's clothing. And she was a groundbreaking. It was a brand new model and that's brave. And I liked that about her. I can see, you know, the whole circular economy is pretty well in its early stages. There will be winners and there will be losers, but I loved her approach.

So it was a new take on something that was already exist. But all she had to do was convince me that she understood that and she understood the challenges and understood how to tackle them. Yes and I think I know who you're talking about because she lives next door to me and we talked a great deal about her venture with her little children. Yes Rosie. Yes it's a small community where I live and she did very very well. Yvonne let me get you

back in here because GC Business Growth Hub offers support for free to women and men who want to start up their own businesses. Can you run us through how that works? So say I call with an idea which I want to develop, what happens next? Yeah, so they have sort of like a little mini diagnostic in the sense of what's their needs from a business point of view and then they're referred right through to the right group. Predominantly most of them, if they're pre-starts, they'll go through our pre-start programme. And that's about those ideas. I think, Sam, you talked about with regards to your mum,

that would be then explored in more detail. And then it would be talked about what research you maybe need to do. And we have a great sort of library network that we can refer through to utilise. I think Sarah mentioned about patenting, they can go and get good sound advice about how they maybe want to develop that business. Once they decided to make that leap of faith to start up in business, then they'll be referred through to either business and support sponsors who a lot of them have run their own small businesses or are still

running their own businesses. So they can really relate really relate and as somebody said I think it was Sarah said about the fact that everybody is going to be really passionate about the ideas they have but it actually does become self-absorbing when they first start putting business so to have somebody there as a sounding board they can utilize that as and when so they might be very needy as some children are to children that are very independent so it's as and when that support and might be very needy, as some children are, to children that are very independent. So it's as and when that support and then they just dip in. So if they need finance, they're referred through to the access to finance team, if it's innovation. So it's a broad range from the growth company. It's really dependent on the client and what their needs are. And we've got

all areas covered. If they need to go outside of that we've got great relationships with all the banks, all the local authorities, all the networks. So Manchester is a really sort of strong collaboration and collaboration when it comes to supporting businesses within the Greater Manchester area. Thank you and in terms of passion and we are talking about passion being the root of a business that you want to launch. And we are about to talk to Lynn Franks and two other women who have made their passion into their business. But you've also done that. I used to be an advisor, used to work with lots of women entrepreneurs.

14 years ago, I was fortunate to go over to San Francisco and learn all about what was happening in America and how they supported women entrepreneurship. And it's great to see that that has progressed and progressed within the UK. So I actually set up my own little sports business. And my passion is netball. And it's something that a lot of women can relate to. Sharon's nodding her head there. So I really, you know, sort of gave all my energy and passion and commitment. And to be fair, somebody said to me one day, you'll never make money doing netball because it was all down to voluntary. And I didn't reply, just in my head, I just thought I will and left it at that and went away.

It wasn't, you know, I didn't, it wasn't groundbreaking, but it was enough to earn money, you know, as a one parent family to support my daughter and me and have a nice living really so yeah I didn't maybe I could have taken it so it was netball that was your driving force Sarah Ronan and Yvonne Sansom thank you for your insights and expertise there well I'm joined now here in the studio by a woman that you may well have heard of Lynn Franks social entrepreneur and founder of the seed women's enterprise network who started her own PR consultancy back in 1975 and now supports and mentors women running or hoping to run their own businesses.

And also with us are Sharon McBean, founder of Nia Ballerina and Joan Darcy, co-founder of Plastic at Bay, who are here to tell their stories of turning their passions into a business. But Lynn, let me start with you. Some of the concerns that Sarah just highlighted there about flexibility, childcare, funding, are these ones that you hear in your business community too? To a degree, but many of the women that I work with have gone to the next stage and are in transition from perhaps their children having left home or their children becoming teenagers and looking to get into something that really is following their passion again. It's that transition time. But clearly there are issues with childcare, which is why I work with groups of women to support them in supporting each other. I mean, Seed, which I wrote the Seed Handbook 22 years ago, and that was when I was in

this studio, or one of these studios in Women's Hour, talking about what the feminine way of doing business was, because I saw a time coming through where more and more women would actually leave the corporate world. Now, in those days, we did not have the technology we've got now, which has made it a lot easier in so many ways. But I could see that the sort of the values and the interest of the women were, and also the fact they did want to be with their children, meant that they would like to start something themselves, like me really, working from my kitchen table when I started when I was 21. So there were more and more women, but I think I was a little bit before my time,

and it's caught up with us. But the Seed Handbook came out all over the world, as I said, 22 years ago. And I still have women coming up to me now saying how it changed their life and it gave them the confidence, which is the big thing that for so many women is the key secret to getting to the next stage. I'm interested though, you said that a lot of these women who are coming to you have older children. And does that kind of play into those concerns again about childcare, flexibility? What do they say to you about wanting to start their business at that time in their life? Well, I would say that most of those children are actually at university,

that's the kind, or even beyond, that's the age that I get a lot of women. I mean, I work with women, I work with young, I mentor young girls in Somerset where I live right the way through from 17 to 70. But I think at that sort of midlife point, women are looking at themselves and thinking, I'd like to do something which is for me now. And what could that be and what is that passion? And one of the things that have come up with your previous speakers, which I think is so relevant, is that, yes, some women want to start a business where they're manufacturing and they're employing people. But for a lot of women, it's what we call solopreneurs. And I coach an awful lot of them that themselves want to learn how to be coaches and support other women.

Or they're creating a small business making natural beauty products. Or they are doing some kind of healing arts work. It's very interesting the wide breadth of interest that the women have that is now turning into businesses is it just the kind of arts and the beauty sector what else are women venturing into well they're not even just venturing i mean the women i coach go from sort of lawyers who actually want to run their business in an organic compassionate way through to ceos of uh one of the women i've been coaching has got a animation company in Bristol where she's employing 60 people,

but it's actually bringing her life-work balance together and having that support. So it varies tremendously, but I think the majority of the women I come across are women that either want to have their own business or be self-employed, or they want to work with others in collectives doing projects. And that's very interesting as well.

And the thing that I find most women have in common is they really do want to do something that helps others, that supports others, either in their communities or the greater world. And certainly being positive about the environment, being positive about helping other women. There's always been this sort of care. It's interesting that Deborah's talking about there's no difference between the genders in business and perhaps the businesses she works with are of the size there aren't. But I find the difference with working with women in business is this quality of caring, wanting to make a difference and have a business that brings in some kind of finance

and a new economy, this circular economy, again, that Debra talked about, is something that women really do feel in their hearts that they want to be involved in, whether it's even creating their own tokens and barter. One of the things I do is I put people together, women together. If you're a specialist in marketing and you'd like to work with someone who could advise you on finance and you're happy to exchange in a barter system, it's what women have done for thousands of years. So with Seed Network, we put women together that have actually got gifts and skills that they can exchange with each other.

It's an interesting time. Deborah, listening to Lynne there, I'm keen to get your thoughts and your response. She talks about women helping other women, being so intrinsic to some of those relationships that she is working with. First of all, I would actually completely agree that women work in a different way. Generally, I can feel a difference.

What I was talking about in terms of equality is the consumer doesn't care about your gender. So I think business is done in a different way. but the consumer really is just interested in what they're going to get. But I do see, I see a lot of the women that I work with, their values are very obvious and they're very, very upfront and they want to do things in the way that they want to do things. You know, they want to make a difference and they want to make sure that what they're doing matches with their own values. I actually see that also with a lot of the male businesses that I work with, but they're not quite so forward with it. You know, they're not quite sure what they're not quite sure they're allowed to do that and say that they feel like they have to be a little bit more hard nosed about things. And it's all about the profit in the commercial side of it.

So I think that there in slightly different places. And I actually think the business world is really moving towards these strengths that a lot of women bring into businesses. With the business world moving so fast at the moment, you've got to have really good judgment. You've got to really care about the things that you're doing. And the consumer feels that. So, you know, I personally think this is kind of we're going to be entering a golden era for women being able to really use their skills in business and the consumer really appreciating them. Do stay with us, Deborah and Lynn. I want to bring in Sharon McBean, founder of Nia Ballerina. Very good to have you here, Sharon. Tell us about these music boxes that you've created. Hi, good morning all. Yeah yeah I'm an older mum my daughter

dances her passion was ballet and you know like any mum you obviously want your daughter to have products that look like her and had assumed you know in this day and age I mean it was a few years ago I've had the business now for five six years just assumed that music boxes the music boxes that you know turn that a lot of people have boxes that you, you know, turn, that a lot of people have had with the ballerinas that turn around, had presumed that, you know, they were readily available. And I looked for quite a few years, you know, obviously the UK, looking on Amazon, looking in America, because I'm thinking, well,

you know, obviously America will have music boxes with black ballerinas. I mean, it's not a new thing. There are black ballerinas out there. I wasn't able to find any in America. I found the equivalent to Amazon in South Africa. I thought, well, surely in South Africa, we're going to get music boxes with black ballerinas. I wasn't able to find any music boxes with black ballerinas.

I mean, the industry as a whole in terms of ballet it has to be challenged but I kind of I wanted my daughter to have something that looked like her so probably sounds crazy but I um ended up having to go to China to manufacture a couple of thousand music boxes just so that my daughter could have a music box that that looked like her but as women and as mums you know we are this is how much it meant to you that you would go to these lengths and that kind of drums home that that that subject of passion that we are talking about yeah well she she needed she just needed to see herself represented you know and in this day and age I suppose other people will take for granted that they see themselves.

Why couldn't my daughters not see herself? So, yeah, when I manufactured a couple of thousand music boxes, but she had one. And yes, you achieved it, but it's also turned into a business for you. It's not just about ensuring that your daughter sees someone that looks like her or has toys and access to resources that reflect her identity. This has turned into a bigger business for you. How testing has that journey been for you? I know that you said that you had to reach out to Chinese manufacturers, but how difficult or otherwise has that road been for you? I think for me, it has been difficult because the business now is, you know, it's about six years into it.

So I think now there is a lot more kind of resources than there was, you know, when I was looking. The product launched six years ago. So when I was looking and looking at where do I go to manufacture, there wasn't as much information out there so it was literally trial and error approaching a manufacturer googling to see who I can get factories to help test the products so you sound like China yes like you've been working solo like what Lynn was tapping into there and I understand that this is not your only job. You've had to kind of do two jobs at the same time, really.

Yeah, so I'm completely self-funded in terms of the business. So I'm completely self-funded in the business. So, yes, I also work part-time as well. Luckily, my job is quite flexible. But, you know, I think when Deborah was saying about you kind of don't, you underestimate how much time. And I remember, you know, when I first launched, you know, the actual business itself, because I didn't expect,

as much as I knew this product needed to be done for my daughter, what I didn't anticipate is everybody else that would want this product. So when I first launched the product I mean you know within a week I had to close down the website because I had a thousand orders and you know for me with a few boxes and a bit of tape that wasn't something that you know I anticipated so I mean I shut down the website and I was like, you know what? I've made a massive mistake. You know, I can't do this. How can I deal with all these orders? You felt overwhelmed by the sounds of it.

But what I'm hearing is someone whose business has been clearly successful, but just doesn't have the resources to take it to the next level. Deborah, how common is it for women, especially to have to work a second job whilst they're launching their own business? Well, you know, Mira, I love love your story I love that you did you know that is absolutely what that's the right passion you know and you saw something you did something about it it's really interesting because I don't know if you saw but on Dragon's Den we had March Muses came into the den exactly the same story they looked at Christmas decorations couldn't see

any that looked like them and actually decided this is wrong and did something about it. So that is, can I just say, that is brilliant, fantastic. I think they also were working a second job and I actually think, I'm going to go back to something that Lynn said

and it's absolutely spot on. I think part of the keeping the second job is the confidence, because because you had no idea how well you were going to do, did you? You had absolutely no idea whether it's going to take off. If you did, you might have given your job up and said, you know, I'm going to go for it. But but it's the confidence bit, I think. So so I think that there's definitely a bit at the beginning of businesses where people think, oh, I'm not sure it's going to do well or if it's going to take off.

And probably rightly so, because if you've got a family to support, you've got children support, living to support, you probably ought to test the waters before you chuck everything and say, actually, I'm going to go for it full on. Lynn, listening to Sharon's story there, that struggle with scaling up and not having the resources. Is that something you hear about in your community of women? Yes, it is to a degree. And I think the most important thing, I did a second job when I started my PR agency. I was a secretary at the weekend to pay for my rent. And I write about it and talk about it all the time. I think it's really important that we actually cover ourselves and we never take a risk. I know women are known, and there has been a lot of research to show, are less risk-aversive than men. But I think, you know, that thing about putting your house up as a guarantee to expand and all those sorts of things

are not things that women tend to do, I'm glad to say. And, yeah, do we have the resources? It's a struggle, but that's where I'm really very keen on encouraging women to come together as a group where perhaps they can bring their resources together. And I think part of the feminine way of doing business is this collaborative, cooperative way of doing things, which come very naturally when women aren't trying to behave in a kind of more masculine way in a masculine world and open up to sort of using their, we talked earlier about intuition, but the whole

area of building relationships with other women where we can help each other. And that then gives us the resources that we may not be able to do otherwise is really, really important. And we want to be part of community. I think it can be very isolating to be running a business from your kitchen table on your own without anyone to talk to. So that's another area where I think we're seeing a big expansion of community of women entrepreneurs, solopreneurs coming together and sharing what's going on for them and seeing how they can help each other. I'm glad to say. And women helping women.

Sharon, I understand you had a mentor. How important was it to have a mentor figure? In terms of kind of like mentors now um i have a network of people now in the early days i found it quite difficult to find um a mentor if i'm honest with you because like i said i think things have changed now and i think the mentors now are either entrepreneurs or business owners so they've actually done that journey so you know I'm pleased to say now I do actually have quite a few mentors that I'm able to actually tap into and it's been absolutely invaluable in terms of kind of like the business you know as it is now

you know I've got a clear plan I know where I'm going and I don't think kind of without kind of that guidance in terms of being able to kind of scale up and kind of look outside of the UK. I would be able to do that without that support because you just constantly make mistakes and you literally go around in circles. But you learn from them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon, can I ask, are your mentors all women? No, not at all. No. So I've got a mixture. And I think that really I think that's really good as well and they're all from different backgrounds as well so I mean at the moment I've actually I'm part of an organization called Women in Toys so I have a mentor in the USA but my products are in the USA

as well but then I've got kind of mentors here that are women and men that are in the UK so um yeah that that really kind of helps to give me a broad spectrum on on things and just and just kind of pick things apart my business has been really picked apart in the last few months but I'll tell you what it's yeah I needed it interesting let me bring in Joancy. He's been waiting very patiently to get in on this conversation. Co-founder of Plastic at Bay. Tell us about your business, Joan. Hi. So I'm co-founder of Plastic at Bay. Our structure is we're a community interest company. So we're a non-profit, but we have the flexibility basically of a company and we're not as tied down as you would, like, let's say a charity. What we do is we started off cleaning the beaches of North West Scotland.

That was about six years ago. And what we found was we were picking up an awful lot of plastic. And this wasn't what you see, you know, on the news. It was, you know, normally like cotton buds, you know, tampons, all these kinds of things, things you know which is kind of litter what we were getting because we're in this rural area in the northwest was basically pollution generated at sea so it was fishing nets fish farm pipes you know all this kind of from a particular to fishing industry so we looked at this we did a huge our first beach clean we did a huge beach clean in ballinacale bay and we picked up 500 kilos and what really got to us after that was that it just kept coming in we just kept on picking up pollution all the time and it was the same thing over and over again so we asked ourselves

two questions what can we do with it because we were just putting it into the skip and why was it such a problem so with regards to what to do with it we found out that the only recycler of fishing ropes and nets uh was actually based in denmark of this kind so companies that um recycle fishing ropes in the uk usually ship them to denmark to to be recycled and form pellets and then and then send. Actually, recently, a company has opened up in the Cotswolds that does recycle trawl nets, but only now. So this was six years ago. This was like our only option.

What do we do? Like we collect them from the middle of nowhere and ship them all the way to Denmark, you know, just seems like a crazy kind of situation. What we wanted to do as well was we wanted to keep, if we're going to make a business of it, we wanted to keep it within the community in a community level so what we developed was a low-tech recycling workshop where we could recycle fishing ropes and nets at first we started making like coasters and clocks and things like this but um what we realized was that these are like this this size coasters this size would be this mountain

of plastic like outside our workshop so then we looked into what could we do so within the community that we lived in it's a crafting so a farming community so with our low-tech machines they can't make uh very complicated items but what we could make is basically plastic lumber so we got them i won won the Women in Innovation Award with Innovate UK last year. Congratulations. Thanks. But they gave us the funding then

to develop our machine to make plastic lumber and also advised me and gave us like financial and other support to write a business plan to then take it to the next level so that's and what is that next level what is it what is it morphed into where do you see it going because you say it's non-profit how's it going to make money well that is the question so because it's such a novel idea it was quite challenging to write the business plan, especially for me, not from a business background. So where we're at now is we've actually moved.

So we were in Durness, but we moved to the Isle of Lewis. So we're still the same situation, a rural community. All the northwest coast gets the same sort of pollution, you know, so it's the same thing. So where we're at now is we're actually in discussions with investors for them to get a property. So we don't we don't have a workshop at the moment. We still have a workshop in their nest, but like our shredder, our extruder, all our machinery still in there. So we're hopefully things will go well with the investor at the moment and we'll get a premises here. And the other question that we asked ourselves, which I'd like to come back to, is why is it such a problem? Why are we getting so much waste from the fishing industry and when we looked at it it's

like there's really no infrastructure there for the fishermen for their waste so they have two problems they don't have anywhere to put their ways they can't afford to fish it to denmark to ship it to denmark a lot of them can't even afford to put it to landfill because it's it's a specialized good that it's really really expensive to actually even dump it so we're in discussions now with fishing industries on the isle of lewis so it's basically a kind of solution base so we're like okay this is the problem yes okay it sounds very very logical, I have to say, Joan. You've really thought about this step by step. I wish you all the best as you take this forward. It really sounds like you've got a clear plan of action in there.

Lynn and Deborah, and maybe Lynn first, you've been in this industry for decades and you've heard inspiring stories from women launching their own businesses for such a long time. How does it make you feel when you hear stories like this? Does it still give you that same energy, that same buzz hearing about women making a success of it? I feel more and more excited all the time. As I said, I was probably a

little bit too early and I can see how women really are moving into their power. They are starting such interesting businesses and social enterprise and community interest company, like we were just hearing about, is one of the things that women again go into very naturally. That doesn't mean that they can't earn a living because it's a not for profit and they have a salary and it just means that they can't sell it for a lot of money. They can't sell it for a profit. But I think it's a very natural way for women to work together in creating these social enterprises. I remember talking about social enterprise and trying to explain what it was. And I didn't even understand myself at the time with John Bird, the founder of Big Issue. We were at a university in Luton at the time talking about what is social

enterprise. That must have been nearly 20 years ago. But it's actually a way that brings you back into helping community, earning yourself a living and doing something you really care about. And I'm a huge believer in it. And how do I feel right now? I feel more and more excited every day. I think it's wonderful. And I love the fact that it's women of all ages. That's so important that you can be 70 plus even as I am and be doing new ideas as I do. I run various businesses, including a social enterprise where we work with young people, including running a local shop, selling eco products and a cafe. I must be crazy. But also we're looking at young women who are starting exciting things,

mothers, women of all ages. And now is the time. Now is the time when we can do it, help each other, reach out, and help those who really do need some kind of financial assistance too. Susan emailed us to share her story. She says, at the age of 62, I achieved a lifelong dream this year when a publisher accepted my manuscript for a young adult novel, which I had finished just as the pandemic began.

I'm an English teacher and mother of four now grown up children with a lifelong love of reading, writing and wordsmithing. But taking time away from teaching and parenting to write my own material always felt self-indulgent. It wasn't until my mother became ill with Alzheimer's I made fortnightly journeys from Yorkshire to Kent to support my father with her care that I found some guilt-free time on the train to write. Time, my husband has said, is my mother's last gift to me. Deborah, Susan's words there, that it always felt self-indulgent, the guilt she felt taking time out to pursue her own dream. I'm sure this is something many women can relate to.

I'm sure, but it's a mindset. And, you know, as confidence is a mindset too and for me it's placing value on those things the things that we do are valuable what Sharon's done there that's valuable so I think we just need to start thinking about these things in a different way because guilt is a terrible terrible thing to carry around with you you know it's such a big I feel it's like a big thing to carry around with you. You know, it's such a big, I feel it's like a big sack to carry on your back and, you know, try and get through life hauling it around. So we've just got to literally re-evaluate, you know, we're doing important stuff. Women are doing really important stuff and just placing value on that. Do you know what I say? I am very capable of saying I was rubbish, but it gives me the right to say that was brilliant. And women are not very good at that. And I can see lots of

nods going on there. And we need to say more often, do you know what, this is important stuff. And I did a darn good job with that. Yes. And what I'm taking away from these conversations is that not only is there amazing energy, brilliant ideas, but also a lot of support. Things have changed, a lot of support out there for women. My thanks to you, Deborah Meaden, and to Lynne Franks and all of our guests here on the programme on turning passion into a business. I do want to close with a couple of your messages. Jude writes, I started singing in public age 50 in 2010, having kept my voice obsessively quiet. At the end of 2011, I was diagnosed with ME, so it all had to stop. However, I unexpectedly started writing and I've just released my third album and I am working on number four. It can be done. And Nicola writes, it was either very frumpy or I was made to feel dirty for wanting to wear a wisp of neon lace whilst taking my baby to this swing park and encouraged to shop in places where I felt I felt frumpy. I didn't feel encouraged to be myself or even safe to speak about what I wanted.

And with this love of well-fitted, everyday sexy lingerie, I very luckily opened my own safe and empowering lingerie shop eight months after my son was born and now 19 years on, I literally pinch myself daily for living my dream. Thank you to all of you for getting in touch. And just before I leave, Deborah, your top tips for women who want to start their own business. Ah, well, just do it. Just do it. You can think about it a lot too long. Just take the first step and then the next step happens and the next step happens and I can see Sam and Sharon nodding away there. And I think get your community together,

get your support group, get your friends together to give you advice, feedback and in turn support them. I think peer support groups, peer mentoring and then you're off and away and as Deborah says, just do it. Thank you to all of you. Our conversation continues, as ever, online at BBC Women's Hour. Do get in touch. But for now, thank you for listening. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.